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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: SuperFuzz on Saturday 12 May 18 09:35 BST (UK)
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Hi guys, don't know if anyone can help me further but I have hit a brick wall with my ancestor James Carr.
He was born between 1871 - 1875 (marriage cert suggests it was 1874), and gives his birth place as 'Black Hill, County Durham, England' on the 1911 census. He married Catherine McGuigan in 1902 in the Gateshead district, on the marriage certificate he gives his father's name as 'James Carr', who was deceased at the time of wedding, but had been a 'general labourer'. James junior had two children, Catherine Carr and James Bernard Carr.
It is the marriage certificate that threw my research off, because I found a family I thought matched him in 1881 in Black Hill, but the father was William Carr...so it can't have been my James. It seemed a perfect match too, because there was a brother 'Bernard Carr' in this family, which made sense since my James named one of his sons 'James Bernard'. Anyway, turns out to be wrong family in 1881 according to the marriage certificate.
In 1902, James was living at 15 Field Street, Felling. I can't find any more info to go on to find the right James's birth certificate or family. I did find a WW1 document which I think was him, except his wife's maiden name was 'McGuiggs', but I can't seem to find this document on Ancestry now.
Can anyone help me break through this brick wall and get further back then this James? I had no problems getting further back with Catherine, just fyi. Thank you so much
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Who were the witnesses to the 1902 marriage?
Did James survive to 1939 and if so do you have his birthdate as stated in the 1939 Register?
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No I believe he died while Catherine Carr junior was still very young.
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James and Catherine had a child you haven’t mentioned:
Margaret Annie Carr, mother’s maiden name McGuigan, birth reg Dec qtr 1905 Gateshead.
Possible death as Margaret Ann Carr aged 3, Dec qtr 1908 Tynemouth.
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James and Catherine had a child you haven’t mentioned:
Margaret Annie Carr, mother’s maiden name McGuigan, birth reg Dec qtr 1905 Gateshead.
Possible death as Margaret Ann Carr aged 3, Dec qtr 1908 Tynemouth.
Oh I didn't know this, thanks so much for finding this!
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I might be remembering incorrectly, but I think that WW1 document that disappeared from Ancestry had something to do with a pension for his wife, so he may have died around 1914-1918.
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There is an Army record for a James Carr who married at St Patrick Felling in 1902 wife's name transcribed as Catherine McGuiggs. I haven't time to look at it as I have to go out.
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There is an Army record for a James Carr who married at St Patrick Felling in 1902 wife's name transcribed as Catherine McGuiggs. I haven't time to look at it as I have to go out.
Yes, that’s him. Details extracted:
Attested (at Barnard Castle) for 6 yrs service in the Durham Light Infantry in July 1908
Birthplace: Felling, Durham
Age: 26 yrs 1 month in July 1908
Roman Catholic
Height: 5’ 5.5”
Weight: 10st 7lb
Eyes: blue
Hair: light brown
Served in France: 4.12.1914 to 22.3.1915.
Discharged: 25 June 1915 no longer physically fit for war service
Conduct: Bad
Next of kin: Mother, Rose McGrady?, 42 Dunston Gr, Hebburn; brother, John Carr. (Wife, Catherine is also entered but later struck through).
Marriage: to Catherine McGuiggan, St Patrick, Felling, 26 Jan? 1902. Witnesses: Joseph Donald, Sarah Ann Donnelly. (This is subsequently struck through).
Children’s names and birthdates/birthplaces are entered but subsequently struck through.
Address on discharge: 93 William St, Hebburn on Tyne.
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There is an Army record for a James Carr who married at St Patrick Felling in 1902 wife's name transcribed as Catherine McGuiggs. I haven't time to look at it as I have to go out.
Yes, that’s him. Details extracted:
Attested (at Barnard Castle) for 6 yrs service in the Durham Light Infantry in July 1908
Birthplace: Felling, Durham
Age: 26 yrs 1 month in July 1908
Roman Catholic
Height: 5’ 5.5”
Weight: 10st 7lb
Eyes: blue
Hair: light brown
Discharged: 25 June 1915 no longer physically fit for war service
Conduct: Bad
Wow, thanks for finding this! Haha, wonder why his conduct was bad. What collection should I search to find this document? Also, when it says 'attested for 6 years at Barnard Castle', does that mean he served in that castle for 6 years for the military in some way?
Also, his wife Catherine died in 1917, and I think he may have died before her, but I could be wrong.
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Barnard Castle is a town, and was the place where he signed up (probably not in the castle itself!).
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. . Also, when it says 'attested for 6 years at Barnard Castle', does that mean he served in that castle for 6 years for the military in some way? . . .
No! It means he signed to serve in the armed forces for 6yrs at the Recruiting Office in the area of Barnard Castle which was not neccessarily in the castle itself.
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My worry about that military record is that it makes him about 10 years younger than he should be. Also, the reason for the striking out of his wife and children’s details is not given. Perhaps they were entered on the wrong man’s record, and this soldier James is not yours at all?
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My worry about that military record is that it makes him about 10 years younger than he should be. Also, the reason for the striking out of his wife and children’s details is not given. Perhaps they were entered on the wrong man’s record, and this soldier James is not yours at all?
Yes I remember some of the dates may have been out for the kids on the record as well? Maybe it is why I didn't save it to him on Ancestry, when I originally found the document
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The dates for the children look OK:
Catherine Elizabeth 17.01.1904
James Bernard 05.05.1908
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The dates for the children look OK:
Catherine Elizabeth 17.01.1904
James Bernard 05.05.1908
That's unfortunate if the military messed up with the record, as it would have been really helpful!
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Ancestry have a record in their Soldiers died in the Great War record set for a Sergeant James Carr born Black Hill, Durham, residing at Wallsend. He was killed in action on 2nd Jan 1918. He was in the Labour Corps ( no 10813) but also seems to have served previously in the DLI ( service no 9021). His gratuity has been paid to a Sarah Kennedy ( register of soldiers effects on Ancestry). There is a newspaper announcement of his death which says he was from Wallsend ( late of Felling). No next of kin mentioned.
I too wondered if the crossing out of the next of kin records on the attestation was because they had been added to the wrong record.
Isobel
Added - his medal card gives his DLI number as 9440. There is a commonwealth war graves record for J Carr under this number.
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Ancestry have a record in their Soldiers died in the Great War record set for a Sergeant James Carr born Black Hill, Durham, residing at Wallsend. He was killed in action on 2nd Jan 1918. He was in the Labour Corps ( no 10813) but also seems to have served previously in the DLI ( service no 9021). His gratuity has been paid to a Sarah Kennedy ( register of soldiers effects on Ancestry). There is a newspaper announcement of his death which says he was from Wallsend ( late of Felling). No next of kin mentioned.
I too wondered if the crossing out of the next of kin records on the attestation was because they had been added to the wrong record.
Isobel
Added - his medal card gives his DLI number as 9440. There is a commonwealth war graves record for J Carr under this number.
Thanks for this. Do you think this is definitely him? Wonder where the kids were.
Added: I found the medal record, there is some extra writing scrawled on the record like 'See M.M (illegible word)' and then 'not identical with 9440 Durh. L. I. (illegible) 18 A' Don't know if any of this means something?
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Just to throw a spanner in the works:
More than one of my ancestors used a fake father's name on a marriage certificate (sometimes their own first name) to conceal illegitimacy.
With this in mind, it could be worth trawling through the censuses for 1891 and 1881 to see how many James CARR children there are, and cross them off them one by one. Also worth checking if the GRO register has a James CARR with mother's maiden name CARR as this could be a clue.
I will see what I can find on the GRO tonight, but would be delighted if another Rootschatter beat me to it!
Philip
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Looking at the address from the WW1 info will/pension it shows James Bernard as being looked after by a Mrs Kennedy at this address: J.B. Carr (son) c/o Mrs Kennedy, 58 Hewiston Terrace, High Felling. Maybe Kennedy was the maiden name of James senior's mother? I match a 4th cousin on Ancestry with many Kennedys in, but haven't yet fathomed out the connection to my own tree.
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Does anyone have any last suggestions to pin down the right James so I can try to find out who his parents were? Thanks
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Looking at the address from the WW1 info will/pension it shows James Bernard as being looked after by a Mrs Kennedy at this address: J.B. Carr (son) c/o Mrs Kennedy, 58 Hewiston Terrace, High Felling. Maybe Kennedy was the maiden name of James senior's mother? I match a 4th cousin on Ancestry with many Kennedys in, but haven't yet fathomed out the connection to my own tree.
This KENNEDY family were living at 58 Hewitson Terrace in 1911. Sarah's maiden surname was DONNELLY.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWCF-NWS
Debra :)
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(MODIFIED)
To summarise:
James CARR
marriage cert - suggests birth c1875, father James CARR, labourer, deceased.
army record - names mother as Rose McGRADY(?) in Hebburn. Brother John CARR
army record - James aged 26yr1mo in July 1908. Religion: RC
army record - James CARR discharged June 1915
army record - home address 93 William Street, Hebburn
Is this the same person as Sgt James Bernard CARR, of the DLI and Labour Corps killed 2 Jan 1918? Son of Mrs KENNEDY of Hewittson Terrace, High Felling (James was at Field Street, Felling when he married in 1902) our James was invalided out unfit, bad conduct, so is it likely he rejoined and became a sergeant?
The likeliest scenario is:
James' mother was Rose
James' father probably James CARR
James was born c1875
as James jnr had a brother surnamed CARR, Rosie may have been Mrs CARR
widow Rose married Mr McGRADY(?)
The only CARR/McCREADY (and variants) marriage I found in Durham is:
(FreeBMD) Rosanna CARR Dec qtr 1874 Sunderland vol10a p902 - on the same page is Edward McCREADY
The 1881 census has: RG11 4993/18 p30 - Brougham Street Sunderland (all surnamed McCREADY) - Edward 26, Rosana 27, children John E 4, Francis 3, James 1 & Elizabeth 0.
The 1891 census has: RG12 4138/96 p13 - Ward Street Sunderland (all surnamed McCREADY) - Edward 36, Rosana 37, children John E 14, Frank 13, James C 11, William M 8, Nora R 6, Mary A 4 & Ernest P 1.
This is most probably a red herring as it does not fit a birth date for John, but it will save other Rootschatters chasing it!
I'm off to hunt censuses for John CARR with mother Rose to see if anything turns up.
Philip
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To summarise:
James CARR
marriage cert - suggests birth c1875, father James CARR, labourer, deceased.
army record - names mother as Rose McGRADY(?) in Hebburn. Brother John CARR
army record - James aged 26yr1mo in July 1908. Religion: RC
army record - James CARR discharged June 1915
army record - home address 93 William Street, Hebburn
unlikely to be Sgt James Bernard CARR, son of Mrs KENNEDY of the DLI and Labour Corps killed 2 Jan 1918 (your James was invalided out unfit, bad conduct, so unlikely to have rejoined and become a segreant)
The likeliest scenario is:
James' mother was Rose
James' father probably James CARR
as James jnr had a brother surnamed CARR, Rosie may have been Mrs CARR
widow Rose married Mr McGRADY(?)
The only CARR/McCREADY (and variants) marriage I found in Durham is:
(FreeBMD) Rosanna CARR Dec qtr 1874 Sunderland vol10a p902 - on the same page is Edward McCREADY
The 1881 census has: RG11 4993/18 p30 - Brougham Street Sunderland (all surnamed McCREADY) - Edward 26, Rosana 27, children John E 4, Francis 3, James 1 & Elizabeth 0.
The 1891 census has: RG12 4138/96 p13 - Ward Street Sunderland (all surnamed McCREADY) - Edward 36, Rosana 37, children John E 14, Frank 13, James C 11, William M 8, Nora R 6, Mary A 4 & Ernest P 1.
This is most probably a red herring as it does not fit a birth date for John, but it will save otherr Rootschatters chasing it!
I'm off to hunt censuses for John CARR with mother Rose to see if anything turns up.
Philip
Philip - have you seen something that says that James Bernard Carr is the son of Mrs Kennedy. If so, that could be a significant find. I am not sure that there is any link between our James and the Army record for James, son of Rose McCready other than that our James family details were erroneously entered on it and then scored off.
Isobel
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Philip - have you seen something that says that James Bernard Carr is the son of Mrs Kennedy. If so, that could be a significant find. I am not sure that there is any link between our James and the Army record for James, son of Rose McCready other than that our James family details were erroneously entered on it and then scored off.
Isobel
As per Superfuzz's post:
Looking at the address from the WW1 info will/pension it shows James Bernard as being looked after by a Mrs Kennedy at this address: J.B. Carr (son) c/o Mrs Kennedy, 58 Hewiston Terrace, High Felling. Maybe Kennedy was the maiden name of James senior's mother? I match a 4th cousin on Ancestry with many Kennedys in, but haven't yet fathomed out the connection to my own tree.
I suspect James Bernard CARR is a red herring.
Philip
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I'm off to hunt censuses for John CARR with mother Rose to see if anything turns up.
Well, no luck with the hunt! Looking at 1881 and 1891 for James, father James, mother Rose and brother John in Durham, the closest I found was:
1881 RG11 4978/82 Front Street, Lumley Great (all CARR surname) - James 36, wife Jane 34, children Susan 10, James 8, John 4, ? 3, Adam 1
1891 RG12 4978/82 Walker Street Gateshead (all CARR surname) - James 38 Labourer, wife Margaret 40, children James 16, Matthew 13, Mary Jane 10, Rose Ann 8, John Ed 6, Francis 4, Ann 1
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I have been looking at the 1881 record for James with father William and mother Ann which gives place of birth as Black Hill. I think there is something odd about this family group, not least that they can’t be found on any other census.
Looking at Bernard age 5, there is a possible birth of a Bernard Carr in Lanchester in 1876 mmn Bulman. There is also a birth of a James in 1871 in Durham, same mmn. Can’t find likely birth for Francis.
Looking at a Carr/Bulman link all I can find is a marriage in 1855 in Gateshead between Joseph Alphord Carr and Ann Bulman. Carr/Bulman children - Elizabeth Bulman 1855 Newcastle died 1860 Newcastle, Esther born 1857 Newcastle died 1858 Newcastle, John Ridley born 1859 Newcastle, Ann born 1861 Gateshead, Bernard born 1870 Gateshead died 1870 Durham, James born 1871 Durham, Bernard born 1876 Lanchester.
In 1861 in Gateshead - Joseph Alford Carr age 31 a labourer, born Newcastle, Ann Carr age 28 Born Haydon Bridge, John R age 2 born Newcastle.
In 1862 the death of Joseph Alfred Carr in Gateshead age 29. Slight difference in name and age from census but I’m fairly sure it is him. John Ridley baptism record shows father as Joseph Alfred and the 1851 census gives him as 22.
In 1871 John (Ridley) Carr and Ann(ie) Carr are living as adopted children of a John Bulman born Haydon Bridge. No sign of Ann Carr/Bulman or her son William ( shown as 18 in 1881). Can’t find an obvious birth for William Carr in 1863.
What I’m wondering is - did Ann take up with other men after the death of her husband but still record the births of resultant children with her married name of Carr. I also wonder therefore if ‘husband’ William in 1881 is really a Carr or has just taken on her surname ( I note he is from Ireland).
This could all be completely unrelated but thought I would put it out there in case anyone else comes across something that might fit with it.
Isobel
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Looking at the address from the WW1 info will/pension it shows James Bernard as being looked after by a Mrs Kennedy at this address: J.B. Carr (son) c/o Mrs Kennedy, 58 Hewiston Terrace, High Felling. Maybe Kennedy was the maiden name of James senior's mother? I match a 4th cousin on Ancestry with many Kennedys in, but haven't yet fathomed out the connection to my own tree.
This KENNEDY family were living at 58 Hewitson Terrace in 1911. Sarah's maiden surname was DONNELLY.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWCF-NWS
Debra :)
Looking back at Sarah family, in 1881 there is a Thomas Mcguiggan age 21 boarding with her family.
Think possible the connection is through the Donnelly/Mcguiggan family either just as friends or poss relations. Sarah A Donnelly witnessed the marriage of James & Catherine before marriage to John Kennedy.
Cas
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My worry about that military record is that it makes him about 10 years younger than he should be. Also, the reason for the striking out of his wife and children’s details is not given. Perhaps they were entered on the wrong man’s record, and this soldier James is not yours at all?
I agree that it looks like 'our' James' details have been entered on the wrong record, so the only relevant details are those that have been crossed out.
Can we have a go at reading the mother's and sister's names and addresses?
Debra :)
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I read the sister / mother as below, but havent been able to make a connection.
Mother: Margaret Lyon? 93 Edward Burdis Street
Sister: Sarah Higgins ? Southwick Sunderland
I have another suggestion though, if the birth place is correct then his birth should have been registered in Lanchester, and this is the only one I can find for that time period:
CARR, JAMES mmn PARKER
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in LANCHESTER Volume 10A Page 346
Added: Between 1838 & 1875 Benfieldside (Blackhill) was in Durham RD, so this is the only other one:
CARR, JAMES ARMSTRONG mmn ARMSTRONG
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 414
EDITED - see next post
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I may have the answer... or at least some of it!
1871 Benfieldside, Durham - RG10/4957/47/48
James Carr 40 Ireland Labourer
Ann Carr wife 36 Cumberland
William Baty Step Son 8 born Gateshead
BEATEY, WILLIAM mmn BULMAN
GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 580
Marriage: 1867 Gateshead - James Carr & (same page) Ann Batey
That would make this the likely birth for James:
CARR, JAMES mmn BULMAN
GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 350
Also suggests that the 1881 census is simply an error and that William is really James Sr
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Great sleuthing Jomot!
Looks a possible Marriage
Marriages Jun Q 1858 Same page
Beatey Isaac Gateshead 10a 690
BULMAN Ann Gateshead 10a 690
1861 as Beety https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7X1-BNK
Bapts for Children on familysearch
BATEY, JOHN Mmn BULMAN
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 549
BATY, SARAH JANE mmn BULMAN
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 526
Possible death?
Name: Age at Death (in years):
BATEY, ISAAC age 30
GRO Reference: 1863 D Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 341
Cas
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I was intrigued by this;
Jacobus Carr, male
Christening 26 MAY 1867, St Joseph's, Gateshead, Durham
Birth Date 03 Aug 1866
Father's Name Jacobi Carr
Mother's Name Anna Batey
(Familysearch.Org)
There is a Death Reg Dec 1867 Gatesheead for a James Carr age 1
Birth Reg as James C BATEY Sept 1866
GRO Index;
BATEY, JAMES CARR, no Mothers mn
GRO Reference: 1866 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 632
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Well done Jomot. I was completely on the wrong track but at least I had found the right James.
Isobel