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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Silverhawk on Tuesday 15 May 18 02:09 BST (UK)
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My third great-grandfather was William Lewis. He married Christiana (sometimes written on documents as Christian) Purves during 1817 in Berwick and they had at least one child there before moving to Newcastle Upon Tyne where my second great-grandfather was born. The family lived at Wall Knoll in the Pandon area of Newcastle and William died there in 1840. The death certificate says he was a labourer aged 48, so I put a circa 1792 birthyear for him on my tree. I looked for William Lewis' in the area who could be him, but there were no obvious candidates so I turned my attention elsewhere.
Now I'm back on the Lewis' and here's where it gets tricky. I know there weren't many Lewis' in Newcastle at the time, so started looking for others who may be related, hoping I could pin down William from another angle. I found a death notice for a Henry Lewis in the old newspapers collection on FindMyPast.co.uk. He died in January 1846 at New Pandon Street in Newcastle. Aha, practically next door to my William, so I figured there's a good chance they're related. Maybe Henry is a son of William's I hadn't found yet. The notice said he was 26, so possibly born in very early 1820 but more likely 1819.
I started looking for Henry's baptism to see if I could tie him in. Nothing in Northumberland. I checked the Scottish borders (as Christiana was from Berwickshire), nothing again. I checked County Durham to see if he was born across the river, also nada. So a little frustrated I did a global search on Ancestry for any Henry Lewis circa 1819, father's name William. Bingo, I got a match... but it's in Rochdale ??? There's never been any hint of family roots in Lancashire on that side, but it's the first lead I'd found so I opened the image anyway. The entry was for Henry Lewis, christened 1st November 1819. Abode: Summer Castle (I looked for it on Google Maps, it's in the east end of Rochdale). Parents William and Christien (sic) Lewis. Under the father's occupation was "Soldier 88 Regt".
Now this is interesting. If this was my William, it would make a certain amount of sense for Henry to be born in Rochdale as soldiers move about a lot. I always thought it was a bit odd that the oldest child of William and Christiana's I could find was born almost 7 years after they were married. It's possible Christiana had medical issues which made having children difficult, but as they later had four other kids, that explanation seems a stretch. It makes more sense that if William was a soldier, the eldest children were simply born wherever William's regiment were based at the time. Military service also runs in the family, so it fits in quite nicely for William to turn out to be one too.
I know that's not proof positive Rochdale Henry's father is my William, but I can't think of another explanation that doesn't require a shedload of coincidences. He's the right age to be the Henry who died in Newcastle in 1846, the father's name matches, the mother's name matches bar spelling error. I don't think Christiana/Christian is exactly a common name, even then. I haven't run across the name in any of my other branches and I've got about 4000 people in my tree. Is it more likely that this Henry Lewis was my great-great-grandfather's older brother and their father was a soldier who just moved about a lot, or that there was a totally unrelated Henry Lewis born in Lancashire who just happened to be the exact same age as the Henry who died in Newcastle and just happened to have parents with the exact same names? Or that the Rochdale Henry randomly moved to the north east and just happened to live the next street over from two unrelated people with his parent's names who were married two years before he was born?
What do you Rootschatters think? Is it safe for me to say yes, this Henry was a son of William's? If so, I now have more info with which to pin down William (and that he wasn't necessarily from the north-east).
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Yes- I'd take it as Henry being another child of your Wiliam and Christiana.
Can you find anything else in Rochdale, during their time there? Any other children born/died?
Who registered the Henry's death? If he wasn't married, then maybe a parent? That would prove your theory of it was Christiana. William was of course dead by then.
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I have done a quick search for children of a William Lewis and Christiana/Christian and found the following, although only Henry has a father who is a soldier, the others don't have occupation details
Henry 1819 Rochdale
James Purves 1824 Berwick
William 1826 Newcastle
Susannah 1827 Liverpool
Elizabeth 1829 Newcastle
Peter 1832 Newcastle
The image for the marriage is available to view via the familysearch catalogue but it gives no clues as to age or occupation.
Emeltom
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....Henry Lewis, christened 1st November 1819. Abode: Summer Castle (I looked for it on Google Maps, it's in the east end of Rochdale). Parents William and Christien (sic) Lewis. Under the father's occupation was "Soldier 88 Regt".
The 88th Regiment of Foot (Connaught Rangers) was raised in Connaught in 1793.
http://www.historyhome.co.uk/forpol/crimea/connaught.htm has a brief history, short on detail. If you can find a regimental diary, you may find out where the regiment was based when the Napoleonic wars ended. Although William Lewis might have been Irish it is probable that he joined the regiment where it was stationed (which could have been anywhere in the UK!) - if muster rolls survive they would indicate when he first appears in the regiment.
All the best
Philip
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Yes- I'd take it as Henry being another child of your Wiliam and Christiana.
Can you find anything else in Rochdale, during their time there? Any other children born/died?
Nothing that I can see.
Who registered the Henry's death? If he wasn't married, then maybe a parent? That would prove your theory of it was Christiana. William was of course dead by then.
I haven't bought Henry's death certificate yet, maybe that's the next step for me to take.
I have done a quick search for children of a William Lewis and Christiana/Christian and found the following, although only Henry has a father who is a soldier, the others don't have occupation details
Henry 1819 Rochdale
James Purves 1824 Berwick
William 1826 Newcastle
Susannah 1827 Liverpool
Elizabeth 1829 Newcastle
Peter 1832 Newcastle
The image for the marriage is available to view via the familysearch catalogue but it gives no clues as to age or occupation.
Oh interesting. I had the details for James, William, Elizabeth and Peter (my great-great-grandfather), but didn't know about a Susannah. Do you have a date for her? There's a James Purvis Lewis from Denton Chare in Newcastle St Nicholas' burial register for 23rd November 1827, age 3yrs 7mths, so the family were back in Newcastle by then.
The 88th Regiment of Foot (Connaught Rangers) was raised in Connaught in 1793.
http://www.historyhome.co.uk/forpol/crimea/connaught.htm has a brief history, short on detail. If you can find a regimental diary, you may find out where the regiment was based when the Napoleonic wars ended. Although William Lewis might have been Irish it is probable that he joined the regiment where it was stationed (which could have been anywhere in the UK!) - if muster rolls survive they would indicate when he first appears in the regiment.
I've just had a look on Ancestry. There's an entry in the Regimental Pay Lists for a William Lewis, 88th Regiment of Foot 1st Batallion, dated 25th December 1812 to 24th March 1813. He's listed under "Drummers and Fifers". On the blank column at the far side it says "From 2nd battalion 25th December".
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There's also a Kilmainham Pensioners record on FindMyPast for a William Lewis of the 88th Foot born Somerset, attested at Wells 12 Feb 1810 aged 14. Discharged 2 Jun 1822 due to chest pain & dyspepsia.
There's something written in pencil at the top that could be 359 Newcl, but maybe I'm just hoping that's what it says...
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a)Ithink the pencilled word could well be an abbreviation for Newcastle
b)Susannah Lewis was baptised Liverpool 11 November 1827
Emeltom
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I've just had a look on Ancestry. There's an entry in the Regimental Pay Lists for a William Lewis, 88th Regiment of Foot 1st Batallion, dated 25th December 1812 to 24th March 1813. He's listed under "Drummers and Fifers". On the blank column at the far side it says "From 2nd battalion 25th December".
There's also a Kilmainham Pensioners record on FindMyPast for a William Lewis of the 88th Foot born Somerset, attested at Wells 12 Feb 1810 aged 14. Discharged 2 Jun 1822 due to chest pain & dyspepsia.
Nice finds! Although the death record in 1840 gives William's age as 48 recorded ages at death are notoriously unreliable, so a birth c1796 is not a problem.
So, it looks as though your William was a Zummerzet lad - he certainly moved around! A quick look at FreeREG doesn't show an obvious baptism, but many parish registers are not yet transcribed. FamilySearch doesn't have images of Somerset PRs. The Somerset Online Parish Clerlks website http://wsom-opc.org.uk/ doesn't have an OPC for the Wells parishes. A lookup from a paysite may be needed.
All the best
Philip
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There's also a Kilmainham Pensioners record on FindMyPast for a William Lewis of the 88th Foot born Somerset, attested at Wells 12 Feb 1810 aged 14. Discharged 2 Jun 1822 due to chest pain & dyspepsia.
There's something written in pencil at the top that could be 359 Newcl, but maybe I'm just hoping that's what it says...
Thank you for getting that :) And wow, the Westcountry. It never even entered my head that he could be from that way. When the family kept appearing further north the further back I went, I thought they were going to end up being Scottish. Which when you consider Lewis is a Welsh name sounds so counterintuitive, but that genuinely looked like the way it was going. Instead he's flipped 180 on me :D
So, it looks as though your William was a Zummerzet lad - he certainly moved around!
Definitely. Westcountry to the Borders to Lancashire, then on to Tyneside. He saw more of the country than I have, lol.
I've just went to FindMyPast and used the info provided to download a copy of the Kilmainham record. Interesting reading. It looks like it describes where he got his ailments, though I can't quite read all the writing: "__ first appearing to arise from a fall from the walls at _________ in 1817, and the latter first appearing in September 1821."
Although the death record in 1840 gives William's age as 48 recorded ages at death are notoriously unreliable, so a birth c1796 is not a problem.
After a case in another branch of someone's age in records shifting between years spanning a couple of decades, this doesn't concern me as much as it probably would have done a few years ago. Especially as the informant on the death certificate wasn't even a family member. Nearest I can work out is that the informant was probably a neighbour. Although this does mean that instead of William being of comparable age to Christiana, he was actually five years younger than her. I haven't seen that happen very often, it's usually the other way around.
b)Susannah Lewis was baptised Liverpool 11 November 1827
Hmm, that's very close to James' death/burial. They've moved from Liverpool back to Newcastle sometime in the space of 12 days. Is that a potential problem, or is that pretty feasible with 1820s transport?
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A Susannah Lewis aged 6 of Suffolk Street was buried 22 Aug 1833 at St Mary, Liverpool.
The baptism was at St John, Liverpool & the address Lawton Street.
I can't see any other Susannah baptised Liverpool around 1827, so not sure what to make of it ???
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And Susannah was born five years after William left the army, so there's no longer that explanation for kids appearing in unexpected places :-\ Elizabeth was born in 1829 and died in 1831 in Newcastle and Peter was born there in 1832, so if this is to work, the family moved back to Liverpool for some reason after Peter was born, then back to Newcastle after Susannah died...
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I must admit to having doubts regarding Susannah being from the family, mainly due to the fact that the children born before and after her were baptised in Newcastle. However I included her just in case as she was born in the same period and the parents names fitted.
Better, I think, to have all available info then you can filter out what doesn't fit/seem right, rather than miss something out completely just because I don't think it might be correct.
Emeltom
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Hmm, if Susannah isn't from the family though, doesn't that lend credence to there being another, different William and Christiana Lewis, living in Lancashire? In which case Henry might be theirs too and I might be barking up the wrong tree with the 88th Regiment :-\
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I have just had a look at the 1841 Census and the only Henry Lewis who turns up is
Henry Lewis 20 born Scotland
Ann Lewis 20 Scotland
I cannot find a Henry Lewis born Rochdale in 1841 or 1851
Emeltom
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I've just went to FindMyPast and used the info provided to download a copy of the Kilmainham record. Interesting reading. It looks like it describes where he got his ailments, though I can't quite read all the writing: "__ first appearing to arise from a fall from the walls at _________ in 1817, and the latter first appearing in September 1821."
That placename where William fell on his head is Valenciennes, in northern France
On here: http://www.historyhome.co.uk/forpol/crimea/connaught.htm (http://www.historyhome.co.uk/forpol/crimea/connaught.htm)
It says "Returning to Europe, it [88th Foot] landed at Ostend just a month after the battle of Waterloo had been Fought, and marched to join the army at Paris. It remained with the Army of Occupation in France - most of the time in garrison at Valenciennes - until 1817. "
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I have just had a look at the 1841 Census and the only Henry Lewis who turns up is
Henry Lewis 20 born Scotland
Ann Lewis 20 Scotland
I cannot find a Henry Lewis born Rochdale in 1841 or 1851
The family were in Berwick in the early 1820s. If his earliest memories are of there, he might have thought he was from there, and people sometimes classify Berwick as Scotland..... grasping at straws here maybe.
That placename where William fell on his head is Valenciennes, in northern France
On here: http://www.historyhome.co.uk/forpol/crimea/connaught.htm (http://www.historyhome.co.uk/forpol/crimea/connaught.htm)
It says "Returning to Europe, it [88th Foot] landed at Ostend just a month after the battle of Waterloo had been Fought, and marched to join the army at Paris. It remained with the Army of Occupation in France - most of the time in garrison at Valenciennes - until 1817. "
Thanks for digging that out :) I hope after all this that I have the right William. It'd be a shame if it was really all a big coincidence.
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I hope after all this that I have the right William. It'd be a shame if it was really all a big coincidence.
I don't suppose William's death certificate includes anything that ties in with the reasons for discharge?
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I don't suppose William's death certificate includes anything that ties in with the reasons for discharge?
Cause of death was "Lock Jaw from a wound in the heel."
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Who registered the Henry's death? If he wasn't married, then maybe a parent? That would prove your theory of it was Christiana. William was of course dead by then.
I haven't bought Henry's death certificate yet, maybe that's the next step for me to take.
I ordered the PDF of Henry's entry. Don't need the info for legal reasons, so a little bit cheaper for me to get the PDF than a cert. Anyway, this looks promising. The informant of Henry's death was a John Muckle of New Pandon Street. After William Lewis died, his widow Christiana remarried to... a John Muckle in March 1841. They were living at Stock Bridge on the 1841 census and Pandon Bank on the 1851 census. All three streets are very close to each other on the old maps of Newcastle. This has to tie Henry in, right?
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Some more coincidences with LEWIS from familysearch.org
Bapt Berwick
4 Aug 1817 John Bowen LEWIS son of John LEWIS & Henrietta
Bapt Edinburgh Scotland
4 June 1818 Robert Frederick LEWIS son of John Bower Captain LEWIS & Henrietta JONES (available on Scotlands people pay per view)
Bapt Rochdale st Chad's
22 May 1820 Henryetta Susanna LEWIS dau of John Bowers LEWIS & Henryetta
So there was a millitary connection and he was in similar places to your William - Berwick & Rochdale. I think they may have been brothers. Was Susanna therefore a family name?
John seems to have emigrated to Canada - here is a link to his grave - he was born in Somerset 1785 and was Captain in the 88th. His son John went on to have an illustrious career .
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/130779937
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The name Susanna(h) hasn't appeared in the Lewis family, except for the possible daughter brought up on the previous page. But I've been dubious about that as it requires the family to be in Newcastle for a year or two up to William Jr's christening in 1826, randomly move to Liverpool for Susanna's christening in 1827 (11 Nov), rush back to Newcastle where James dies and is buried 12 days later (23 Nov), stay for a few years until after Peter is christened in 1832, then move back to Liverpool conveniently in time for Susanna to die in the city she was born in, then back to Newcastle again. The movements seem strange to me given William was out of the army in 1822 (assuming that's the right William) and there's no other reason I can see for him to keep flitting between the cities.
I suppose there could be another William and Christiana in Lancashire and Henry and Susanna are both theirs, but if that's so there'd need to be another Henry of the same age born/christened in the north-east to account for the one who died in 1846 with my Christiana's second husband as informant. Again I'm dubious. Henry fits into the narrative, but Susanna throws a big spanner into it.
So there was another Lewis in both Berwick and Rochdale, and born in Somerset? And you say this John Bowen Lewis was Captain of the 88th? The same regiment William was in? This is getting weird, the coincidences are piling up to surreal levels now. ??? ??? ???
Many thanks for the info, fiddlerslass. I just have no idea how I'm going to sort it all out ;D
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John Bower Lewis was baptised Somerton 1 January 1785 parents Thomas and Sarah. I can find other siblings on FreeReg but no William. The baptism I have seen in Edinburgh for John Bower's son Robert Frederick gives mmn as Jones.
Emeltom
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Hmm, his headstone says born April 1785, so it looks like whoever had the stone done got his age wrong. Born April 1784 perhaps?
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John Bower Lewis was baptised Somerton 1 January 1785 parents Thomas and Sarah. I can find other siblings on FreeReg but no William. The baptism I have seen in Edinburgh for John Bower's son Robert Frederick gives mmn as Jones.
I just looked at FreeReg. There's a burial at St Michael's, Somerton, 6th March 1785 for a John Bower Lewis, age: infant. And another one in January for a John Bower Lewis, son of Thomas and Sarah ???
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A little update to this. I just found a record in Ancestry's "Canada, British Regimental Registers of Service" collection for the William Lewis who served in the 88th Foot Regt (he's still the most likely candidate for my great(x3)grandfather for now). It gives his birthplace as "Somerset St James". This has left me more confused than ever though as I can't find a place by that name there, and if it's referring to a parish, there are loads of churches dedicated to St James, so... am I missing something? Is being from St James an obvious place to someone from Somerset that me being a daft northerner just isn't getting? Or is the info really as frustratingly vague as it appears to me?
I've duplicated this question on the Somerset sub-board to see if they have any ideas there.