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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: G Reese on Tuesday 15 May 18 15:46 BST (UK)
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Hello all,
My 3rd great grandfather George James left behind many puzzles, including his birth record. I have pretty high confidence in his 1859 marriage certificate, in which his father is listed as George James.
Other sources that I have which include census returns, newspaper articles, and his death certificate, indicate he was born in Monkton circa 1819.
My relatives identified a Saint Mary of Pembroke baptism record as his, with the date of 7 Aug 1819. Parents listed are John James (laborer) and Elizabeth James of Moncton Lane. The only other possible baptism records are in 1826 in Monkton (parents George and Sarah) or 1820 in Amroth (parents George and Choice).
My family's accepted birth record seems right by the date and place, but I have difficulty reconciling the difference in fathers' names between the marriage certificate and the baptism record. How could George James incorrectly remember his father's name? Or, has my family chosen the wrong baptism record after all?
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Birth records didn't exist before the onset of Civil Registration (1st July 1837).
So, you have to rely on a Baptism record.
And, no! They aren't the same ;D
My daughters (40 today) have birth records, but have never been baptised. ;)
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You are right--in my head I equate birth records to baptism records pre-1837. Sorry for the confusion. :-X
If George had been born after 1837 this would have been a lot simpler, but instead he had to join the military at 18 and disappear from census records until he got out. The first time I find him in census records is 1861, married with children.
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Could they possibly have had him baptised when he was older, so the monkton one with the right parents is correct, just that he was a child rather than a baby?
The original baptism record might note this.
Do George and Sarah have other children in Monkton around the time?
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I think that it is possible that he was baptized as a child rather than an infant, but the 1826 record makes no indication of this. It does indicate that he was baptized with his twin sister Sarah. 6-7 year old children being baptized together seems very unusual, but not outside the realm of possibility.
As it happens, I found a family tree of a descendant of Sarah James through some extended Googling, but I haven't had success in contacting them to compare notes as of yet.
The 7 Aug 1819 baptism (to John and Elizabeth) is very compelling because he would have been only a week old if his obituary is correct in his birthdate of 1 Aug 1819.
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the Sarah daughter of George & Sarah is on the 1851 census with them in Monkton HO107/2476 folio 4 pg 14. She shows as 24. She's also on the 1841 census with them and other siblings including George.
Who did George marry in 1859? Where is he living after that? Could you give census refs please?
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Sure, didn't want to firehose y'all from the gate.
According to his son John James, George enlisted in the army in 1839 in Pembroke.
Chatham & Hyde Park
George James 22nd Company Royal Sappers & Miners
8 Jan 1859 Marriage by license in Castlemartin
George James of Monkton, father George James
Elizabeth James of Castlemartin, father Benjamin James
1861 Wales Census: RG9/4155/ 42 p 17
St Mary Pembroke
George James 30 Birthplace: Monkton
Elizabeth James 23 Birthplace: Castlemartin
William James 1 Birthplace: St Mary
1871 Wales Census: RG10/5515/23/p 3
St Mary Pembroke
George James 44 Birthplace: Monkton
William James 11 Birthplace: St Mary
John James 7 Birthplace: St Mary
George James 5 Birthplace: St Mary
1881 Wales Census RG11/5360/19 p32
Swansea Town
George James 61 Birthplace: Pembroke
Mary A. James 60 Birthplace: Pembroke
John James 17 Birthplace: Pembroke
George James 15 Birthplace: Pembroke
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OK, that's the marriage I was looking at earlier in the parish records. The one before is by licence, but the one for George & Elizabeth is by Registrar's Certificate. So, either one or both of the couple could be non-conformist. So there may not be a parish baptism to find.
Witnesses William James & Thomas Hughes
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Goodness you're right--their marriage was by registrar's certificate. Seeing as I've found baptism records for everyone in Elizabeth's family, that places the question on George. Their own children were baptized, but perhaps he never was?
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Just to add to this story, I found a burial record for a 4 month old George James in December of 1819 at "Moncton Lane," casting serious doubt on the 7 Aug 1819 baptism record.
Supposing George James was never baptized, how might I identify his birth family?
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well, you know his father was George, a labourer. If you have access to the parish registers for the area, you could build a picture of the local James families using the records and the census entries. If there's a family where you don't find baptisms, you could investigate them more thoroughly.
Some non-conformist records are available through the Dyfed FHS. It may be worth checking Pembroke as well as it's so near. The record office has records for the Wesleyan church in Pembroke but they start from 1839.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/Monkton#ChurchRecords
Any marriages before the start of civil registration in July 1837 and after Hardwicke's Marriage Act were in the established church anyway, apart from for Jews & Quakers.
There may be wills, not seeing anything of use at the moment, though.
https://www.library.wales/discover/nlw-resources/wills/
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So, I took a look again at the 1871 Census for my George, and found him living at Lake House next to another family, the Davies.
Benjamin Davies 56 Birthplace: Nash
Elizabeth Davies 50 Birthplace: Monkton
Sarah Davies 15 Birthplace: St Mary's
They lived at the same address (Lake House) in 1861.
In 1851, they lived with a George James at "Beehall" (I think)!
Nash, Pembrokeshire
George James Head 59 Birthplace: Monkton Profession: Farmer of 20 Acres
Sarah James Wife 59 Birthplace: Rhosecrowther
William James Son 31 Birthplace: Monkton Profession: Attorney's Managing Clerk
Benjamin Davies Son-in-law 34 Birthplace: Nash Profession: Laborer in H. M. Dockyard
Elizabeth Davies Daughter 29 Birthplace: Monkton
Matilda James Granddaughter 7 Birthplace: Somerset
George Richards Servant 14 Birthplace: St Florence
John Lloyd Visitor 28 Birthplace: Bosherston Profession: Journeyman Blacksmith
James Allen Visitor 13 mo Birthplace: Carew
There's a Sept 29 1850 marriage certificate:
Benjamin Davies Profession: Gardener Residence: Green Father: John Davies Profession: Laborer
Elizabeth James Residence: "Bellevue" (sp?) Father: George James Profession: Farmer
I think this is starting to make a compelling case that Elizabeth Davies is George's sister, and that they share the farmer George James as father. Is there anything else I should look at before reaching this conclusion?