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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: CelticMom on Friday 18 May 18 14:29 BST (UK)
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My 4x Great Grandmother was Mary Ann Varrell or Varrall.
She was born about 1808 and died 1844 in Marylebone and was buried at Whitefield´s Memorial Church, Camden possible non-conformist going by the burial record.
She married my 4xGreat Grandfather Charles Norval Michelin in 1830 at St Mary's in Islington. Charles was a wood carver.
Their children were as follows:
Emma Sarah 1831
Mary Ann 1833
Laura Elizabeth 1835
Louis Philip 1838
Ada Michelin 1839 - my 3x great grandmother
David Stephen 1841
Jane Clara 1843
when Mary died, Charles remarried to a Martha Nelson. They had a daughter, also called Jane Clara, the first one died young.
Most of the children by Charles and Mary Ann Michelin also died young. Only Laura Elizabeth and Ada (my 3x great grandmother surviving).
I am convinced Charles Norval Michelin and Mary Ann Varrell has Huguenot roots but have not been able to prove this yet.
My main brick wall is I can't work back on Mary Ann, as no record for her baptism can be found.
Any help would be appreciated. I don't need to trace them forward, as have all records for them.
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Possible baptism
Mary Ann Verril
Born 27 february 1808
Baptised 15 March 1808 Brompton, Mamer Street Chapel (Weslyan)
Birth Place Gillingham
Parents William and Sarah
Emeltom
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thank you, that does look like a possibility. Wonder how I could try to prove?
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Mary Ann Verril
Born 27 february 1808
Baptised 15 March 1808 Brompton, Mamer Street Chapel (Weslyan)
Birth Place Gillingham
Parents William and Sarah
The 1851 in Marylebone shows Martha Nelson also born in Gillingham.
HO107/1486 f387 p4
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Hi
Here they are 1861 Gillingham 2 Layfields
William Varrall 80 retired fisherman Chatham
Sarah 78 Chatham
Elizabeth daughter 53 Gillingham
Death William Ausgustus Varrall Mar 1863 Medway.
So marriage at Hoo 20.5.1798 to Sarah Langly.
1841 also at Gillingham Gadshill
William 62 fisherman y
Sarah 60 y
Elizabeth 39 y
Martha Nelson 37 y
Elizabeth Barnard 3 y
There is a baptism at Chatham
Martha Varrall d of William and Sarah 18.1.1804 .
It looks like Martha was Mary Ann'solder sister.
She is married on the 1851 census with the Michelins.
Other children Ann at Gillingham 15.9.1805 ,Anne 13.1.1813 at Gillingham and James Thomas 9.7.1815 there ,-at Chatham Sarah Elizabeth 22.7.1798 ,William Giles 7.2.1800,Elizabeth 18.6.1804 Hannah 25.6.1817 ,Giles John 15.5.1819 at Chatham
William is in the merchant seaman records for 1845 born 1778 from Chatham and on the same page is John Giles Varrall presumably his son.
Ciderdrinker
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Hi ciderdrinker
I’m a little confused by your post. Are you saying Mary Ann Varrell my 4xGreat grandmother is related to Martha Nelson who my 4xGreat grandfather Charles Norval Michelin married after she died?
So Martha was most likely born Martha Michelin and possibly a widow to a Nelson?
This would be amazing step if so, as I’ve been stuck researching backwards on her line, my fault for not looking at Martha Nelson more. I will have to double check my file, but I don’t think I found an actual marriage to Martha Nelson to Charles Michelin, just the daughter born to them and then her death as Martha Michelin. Perhaps they never officially married when Mary Ann Varrell died.
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Do you think it’s possible the Jane Clara Michelin baptisms in 1844 between Mary Ann Varrell and Charles and 1851 between Martha and Charles are the same daughter?
There appears to be only one death record in 1851 - Jane Clara Mitchelin (surname variation). Why would they baptize twice?
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Also I’ve never been able to find out what happened to Emma Sarah Michelin - daughter of Charles Norval Michelin and Mary Ann Varrell. I am presuming she died, but can’t find a death for her.
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Hi ciderdrinker
I’m a little confused by your post. Are you saying Mary Ann Varrell my 4xGreat grandmother is related to Martha Nelson who my 4xGreat grandfather Charles Norval Michelin married after she died?
So Martha was most likely born Martha Michelin and possibly a widow to a Nelson?
I think the suggestion is Mary and Martha were Varrell sisters. In theory the marriage wouldn't then have been legal, however I know plenty of marriages between a widower and his sister in law
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Do you think it’s possible the Jane Clara Michelin baptisms in 1844 between Mary Ann Varrell and Charles and 1851 between Martha and Charles are the same daughter?
There appears to be only one death record in 1851 - Jane Clara Mitchelin (surname variation). Why would they baptize twice?
I think it's the same child - the birthdate on both baptisms is 6 Sept, but different years. The child who dies in Q2 1851 was 8 years old. The death and second baptism are in the same quarter, perhaps she was gravely ill, Charles couldn;t remember if she'd been baptised so he had a second baptism just in case
Aha - 1851 she's in the Middlesex Hospital (as Jane Clare Mitchellen)
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Do you think it’s possible the Jane Clara Michelin baptisms in 1844 between Mary Ann Varrell and Charles and 1851 between Martha and Charles are the same daughter?
There appears to be only one death record in 1851 - Jane Clara Mitchelin (surname variation). Why would they baptize twice?
I think it's the same child - the birthdate on both baptisms is 6 Sept, but different years. The child who dies in Q2 1851 was 8 years old. The death and second baptism are in the same quarter, perhaps she was gravely ill, Charles couldn;t remember if she'd been baptised so he had a second baptism just in case
Aha - 1851 she's in the Middlesex Hospital (as Jane Clare Mitchellen)
Thanks, Mabel, yes that's correct, I forgot she was in the hospital in 1851, I knew she was hospitalized at some point but couldn't remember when. I really should look at my file before asking something which I probably already have the answer too lol. It's been a long time since I went back to this family and worked on it because of being stuck with Mary Ann Varrell. So definitely need to refresh my memory on what I have as I have Lot's to look into now.
Looking back at the 1851 census, Martha is a visitor with Charles and it says she is married (M) not widowed, but she doesn't seem to ever appear with a husband. I can't yet find a marriage of Martha Varrell to a ? Nelson, but it's most likely non-conformist.
I presume records for Kent are online? (I'm now living in Canada), so I may need to look there for a marriage.
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Hello
Sorry not to get back to you.I didn't see a notification of your post for some reason.Strange but there you go.
Yes I am suggesting that Mary Ann and Martha Nelson were sisters.
Like you I couldn't see a marriage between Charles Michellin and Martha Nelson but on that census she's with the Michelin family in 1851 she is noted as married so Martha must have married a Mr Nelson sometime somewhere.
And has as already been said a marriage between Martha Nelson and Charles Michellin would therefore not have been valid.
I looked at the GRO index to see if I could find a birth registration for Jane Clara but could only see one .She had a mother maiden name Varrell but it was in 1842.
It seems a bit of a coincidence if Martha Nelson was with Mary Ann's family down in Kent in 1841 and then moved to London and was with the family again on the 1851 and she wasn't related.
It looks like Martha Varrall married Edward Nelson at Islington St Mary 7th Jan 1822 both single and of this parish.Both signed.Wit William Varrall and William Brice who also signed.
They had a son Frederick William Nelson christened at St James Piccadilly 20.2.1830.They were form Bow and Edward was a bootmaker.
Daughter Martha Adelaide Nelson 29 Nov 1831 / bapt 22.4.1832 Murdell St? cordwainer ,Edward John Nelson 5 Nov 1833/Bapt 5 Nov 1834
Also Edward William Nelson C of London lying in Hospital 30.10.1822 Nicholas lane ,Boot maker
Who may have been buried 6.7.1825 age 2 at St James Piccadilly of Carnaby St.
Looks like the family were also on the 1841 census so Martha was on it twice.
ST James Westminster
Edward Nelson 38 boot maker y
Martha 37 n
Frederick 11 y
Martha 9 y
Edward 7 y
There's a tree on Ancestry for Frederick Nelson a Brazillian merchant apparently.
It looks like Edward Nelson didn't die until June 1869 so again no way could Martha marry Charles.
Edward seems to have his own family down in Kent on the 1861 census at West Wickham
Edward Nelson 57 bootmaker Westminster St James
Sarah 47 Paddington
Charles 16 bootmaker Whitechapel
Alexander 14 Brompton ( all mother's maiden name Clegg)
Henry 11 C of London
Walter 3 C of London
Clara 8 C of London
The previous census in 1851 has them in London,Charles now born in Boulogne.
Two more children Richard 13 and Edward 16 maybe Martha's kids.
Hope that helps and sorry not to have gotten back to you.
Ciderdrinker
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Hello
Sorry not to get back to you.I didn't see a notification of your post for some reason.Strange but there you go.
Yes I am suggesting that Mary Ann and Martha Nelson were sisters.
Like you I couldn't see a marriage between Charles Michellin and Martha Nelson but on that census she's with the Michelin family in 1851 she is noted as married so Martha must have married a Mr Nelson sometime somewhere.
And has as already been said a marriage between Martha Nelson and Charles Michellin would therefore not have been valid.
I looked at the GRO index to see if I could find a birth registration for Jane Clara but could only see one .She had a mother maiden name Varrell but it was in 1842.
It seems a bit of a coincidence if Martha Nelson was with Mary Ann's family down in Kent in 1841 and then moved to London and was with the family again on the 1851 and she wasn't related.
It looks like Martha Varrall married Edward Nelson at Islington St Mary 7th Jan 1822 both single and of this parish.Both signed.Wit William Varrall and William Brice who also signed.
They had a son Frederick William Nelson christened at St James Piccadilly 20.2.1830.They were form Bow and Edward was a bootmaker.
Daughter Martha Adelaide Nelson 29 Nov 1831 / bapt 22.4.1832 Murdell St? cordwainer ,Edward John Nelson 5 Nov 1833/Bapt 5 Nov 1834
Also Edward William Nelson C of London lying in Hospital 30.10.1822 Nicholas lane ,Boot maker
Who may have been buried 6.7.1825 age 2 at St James Piccadilly of Carnaby St.
Looks like the family were also on the 1841 census so Martha was on it twice.
ST James Westminster
Edward Nelson 38 boot maker y
Martha 37 n
Frederick 11 y
Martha 9 y
Edward 7 y
There's a tree on Ancestry for Frederick Nelson a Brazillian merchant apparently.
It looks like Edward Nelson didn't die until June 1869 so again no way could Martha marry Charles.
Edward seems to have his own family down in Kent on the 1861 census at West Wickham
Edward Nelson 57 bootmaker Westminster St James
Sarah 47 Paddington
Charles 16 bootmaker Whitechapel
Alexander 14 Brompton ( all mother's maiden name Clegg)
Henry 11 C of London
Walter 3 C of London
Clara 8 C of London
The previous census in 1851 has them in London,Charles now born in Boulogne.
Two more children Richard 13 and Edward 16 maybe Martha's kids.
Hope that helps and sorry not to have gotten back to you.
Ciderdrinker
Wow thank you, that gives me heaps to work on now. I really appreciate your help.
It definitely looks like Martha’s marriage to Edwards didn’t go so well.
Can I ask where you found the marriage for Martha?
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Charles & Martha have granddaughter Martha Nelson b c1852 with them in 1861. She appears not to have a mmn listed on GRO for her birth, so I guess she could be the daughter of Martha (1831)
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Charles & Martha have granddaughter Martha Nelson b c1852 with them in 1861. She appears not to have a mmn listed on GRO for her birth, so I guess she could be the daughter of Martha (1831)
so daughter of one of Martha's children, will look into it.
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Confusingly we have 3 Marthas
Martha 1 - nee Varrell, married Nelson, lived with Michelin (died as Martha Nelson Michelin)
Martha 2: Martha Adelaide - b 1831, daughter of Martha and Edward Nelson (see 1841)
Martha 3 - b 1852, granddaughter of Martha 1. Appears to be illegitimate, obvious candidate for mother is Martha 2
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Confusingly we have 3 Marthas
Martha 1 - nee Varrell, married Nelson, lived with Michelin (died as Martha Nelson Michelin)
Martha 2: Martha Adelaide - b 1831, daughter of Martha and Edward Nelson (see 1841)
Martha 3 - b 1852, granddaughter of Martha 1. Appears to be illegitimate, obvious candidate for mother is Martha 2
how have you worked out she is possibly illegitimate?
I have found a baptism in 1852 for Martha Pullen Nelson to George Nelson and Martha
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As I noted above, she appears not to have a mmn listed on the GRO register for her birth. This usually indicates llegitimacy
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As I noted above, she appears not to have a mmn listed on the GRO register for her birth. This usually indicates llegitimacy
Thanks, yeah I did see that, what I mean is that I didn't think maiden names appear on the gro index for that early?
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oh yes I forgot you can now search on the gro official website and see a little more info than before. Thanks. I see what you mean now, so the baptism I have found of a Martha Pullen Nelson in 1852 to George Nelson and Martha ? possibly not the same, although it's not seeing any other births in that area for the Martha Pullen Nelson. So one would assume the 1852 birth must be the same Martha but then why would no maiden name be on the Gro Index?
Might need to order the birth cert for more clues.
On the baptism of Martha Pullen Nelson in 1852, George (a carman) and Martha where living on wells street in Marylebone.
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So I've found someone who is a descendant of William Augustus Varrell and Sarah Langley, but we don't have any DNA match on Ancestry which is odd right?
It definitely looks like I have the right family as too many coincidences and it all seems to tie in.
He is a descendant of William and Sarah's son - James Thomas Varrell.
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Hi
Here they are 1861 Gillingham 2 Layfields
William Varrall 80 retired fisherman Chatham
Sarah 78 Chatham
Elizabeth daughter 53 Gillingham
Death William Ausgustus Varrall Mar 1863 Medway.
So marriage at Hoo 20.5.1798 to Sarah Langly.
1841 also at Gillingham Gadshill
William 62 fisherman y
Sarah 60 y
Elizabeth 39 y
Martha Nelson 37 y
Elizabeth Barnard 3 y
There is a baptism at Chatham
Martha Varrall d of William and Sarah 18.1.1804 .
It looks like Martha was Mary Ann'solder sister.
She is married on the 1851 census with the Michelins.
Other children Ann at Gillingham 15.9.1805 ,Anne 13.1.1813 at Gillingham and James Thomas 9.7.1815 there ,-at Chatham Sarah Elizabeth 22.7.1798 ,William Giles 7.2.1800,Elizabeth 18.6.1804 Hannah 25.6.1817 ,Giles John 15.5.1819 at Chatham
William is in the merchant seaman records for 1845 born 1778 from Chatham and on the same page is John Giles Varrall presumably his son.
Ciderdrinker
Hi there
can I ask which site you got all the baptism records from? Were there images? As I may need to subscribe and get those. I have ancestry, but don't see them on there.
Thanks
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oh yes I forgot you can now search on the gro official website and see a little more info than before. Thanks. I see what you mean now, so the baptism I have found of a Martha Pullen Nelson in 1852 to George Nelson and Martha ? possibly not the same, although it's not seeing any other births in that area for the Martha Pullen Nelson. So one would assume the 1852 birth must be the same Martha but then why would no maiden name be on the Gro Index?
Might need to order the birth cert for more clues.
On the baptism of Martha Pullen Nelson in 1852, George (a carman) and Martha where living on wells street in Marylebone.
Martha Pullen Nelson's dob is given as 27 August 1852. The Martha on GRO with no mother's maiden name is not registered until Oct-Dec 1852
Also can't see a marriage between a George Nelson and a Martha in the area around that time!
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I think the fact they are both born in Marylebone with mother Martha makes it too much of a coincidence though. I've definitely seen births registered a little while after the birth too, so it's not totally out of the norm.
I may order the birth cert to see what it states. But sticking to my direct line for now.
I have found Lewis Philip Michelin birth was registered in 1837 in Medway Kent, didn't spot that before, he was baptized and buried in London. So that may well connect Mary Ann again to William and Sarah. I'm going to order the birth cert, to see what address comes up, perhaps Mary Ann was visiting her parents and went into labour.
Still, find it odd that there was no DNA match to the other descendant of William and Sarah I have made contact with, but I'm pretty certain I have the right family now.
Also, can any fresh pair of eyes help me with Emma Sarah Michelin, she is the only one I can't find what happened to. There doesn't appear to be any death record, I have tried numerous variations and I can't find a marriage.
You have all done amazing with cracking this for me so far, I am really thankful.
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Hello
Sorry to not get back to you earlier.I'm not on line at home and the Library was closed over the holiday.
The marriage for Martha is on Ancestry.
I got the baptisms of FindMyPast but they are also on Ancestry.Neither have images for them only the transcription.So there is no point in subscribing to FindMyPast.
There are fuller transcriptions for Chatham and Gillingham at Freereg.
I believe Ancestry are to get some Kent parish records soon so better to hang on for those.
Ciderdrinker
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Hello
Sorry to not get back to you earlier.I'm not on line at home and the Library was closed over the holiday.
The marriage for Martha is on Ancestry.
I got the baptisms of FindMyPast but they are also on Ancestry.Neither have images for them only the transcription.So there is no point in subscribing to FindMyPast.
There are fuller transcriptions for Chatham and Gillingham at Freereg.
I believe Ancestry are to get some Kent parish records soon so better to hang on for those.
Ciderdrinker
Thank you, I will wait for now then. I was going to subscribe to find my past for the 1939 register, but that is now on ancestry too.
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Hello me again
i did spot a baptism for William Augustus Varrall on Freereg
William Augusta Varrall s of Giles Dartnell and Hannah Varrall at Chatham st Mary the Virgin 13 Dec 1778.
Siblings all at the same church.
Giles 18 April/14 May 1766 ,Sarah 6.1.1769,Chadderton 11.11.1770,Ann 2.5.1773,John 24.9.1775,Thomas 3.3.1782-16 June 1782.
Giles Darknell Varrall s of John and Elizabeth bapt 11.4.1736 .(Other children on Freereg ,he seems to be their eldest).He marries Hannah Nicholson 4.9.1764 .Signs with a cross.Wit Emanl and Ann Mills
Burial for Giles age 80 9.2.1814 Chatham and Hannah 19.7.1813 age 72.
It looks like John Varrall married Elizabeth at the Fleet prison in London .
John Varrall of St Nicholas Rochester fisherman and Elizabeth Rancefull 18.11.1732.
that image is on Ancestry.
It looks like John comes from Strood John sof John an Marcy 22.3.1707/8.
Their second child called John.Again you can see the rest on Freereg
John Virrall married Marcy Durtnell at Sevenoaks 3.7.1700 (that from FindMyPast but only an index/transcription).
Possible first marriage at Strood to Debra Smith 23.1.1692/3 from Freereg.
I hopes that helps.Sorry i couldn't find the images for you.
Ciderdrinker
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Chatham st mary’s Images should be here somewhere
You have to select the PDF files and read through
https://cityark.medway.gov.uk/Details/archive/110002214
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Hello me again
i did spot a baptism for William Augustus Varrall on Freereg
William Augusta Varrall s of Giles Dartnell and Hannah Varrall at Chatham st Mary the Virgin 13 Dec 1778.
Siblings all at the same church.
Giles 18 April/14 May 1766 ,Sarah 6.1.1769,Chadderton 11.11.1770,Ann 2.5.1773,John 24.9.1775,Thomas 3.3.1782-16 June 1782.
Giles Darknell Varrall s of John and Elizabeth bapt 11.4.1736 .(Other children on Freereg ,he seems to be their eldest).He marries Hannah Nicholson 4.9.1764 .Signs with a cross.Wit Emanl and Ann Mills
Burial for Giles age 80 9.2.1814 Chatham and Hannah 19.7.1813 age 72.
It looks like John Varrall married Elizabeth at the Fleet prison in London .
John Varrall of St Nicholas Rochester fisherman and Elizabeth Rancefull 18.11.1732.
that image is on Ancestry.
It looks like John comes from Strood John sof John an Marcy 22.3.1707/8.
Their second child called John.Again you can see the rest on Freereg
John Virrall married Marcy Durtnell at Sevenoaks 3.7.1700 (that from FindMyPast but only an index/transcription).
Possible first marriage at Strood to Debra Smith 23.1.1692/3 from Freereg.
I hopes that helps.Sorry i couldn't find the images for you.
Ciderdrinker
Thank you once again for your help. I have managed to connect many of the branches together now, it's a bit of a headache as so many of the same names were used, so have to be really careful not to get them mixed up.
One question I still have if anyone can shed any light. I have made contact with another descendant of William Augustus Varrall, but we don't appear to have an Ancestry DNA match. Would this be possible? I am pretty sure that Mary Ann Varrall is mine now with the connection to Martha Nelson and even if it wasn't, the Varrall's are most likely connected somewhere so should still be a match.
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Chatham st mary’s Images should be here somewhere
You have to select the PDF files and read through
https://cityark.medway.gov.uk/Details/archive/110002214
thank you, I did look on that site before, but it's a nightmare to browse, will try the link you have posted.