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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: Billesher on Saturday 19 May 18 01:33 BST (UK)
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Good day,
I recently got my Ancestry DNA results back, and the matches are causing me some concern for which I'd greatly appreciate your advice and thoughts.
I have completely unknown 2nd and 3rd cousin matches - the 3rd cousin has a tree. Looking at it, I thought easy, we're linked on her paternal line as they come from the same area as one of my ancestral families.
However, I then looked into our "shared matches" and realised that at least 8 were connected to her maternal line!!
Now, I have NO connection with her maternal line, who come from Kent: I have one line in Kent but not since the mid-1700s, and I've got back to about 1700 on all those lines and none of the names link whatsoever.
I've identified that I have matches with not only her maternal great-grandfather, but his grandmother and great-grandmother as well. Does this suggest I am somehow connected to this man?
Sorry if this isn't clear, it's quite hard to explain! Happy to clarify anything. Otherwise, I greatly look forward to your views.
Thank you,
Bill
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Bill, Looks like you have possibly uncovered an illegitimacy. The only other explanation that I can think of is a very basic mistake in your tree (which I am not really thinking).
2nd and 3rd cousin matches, in my experience, have always been genuine and traceable, and at that level, a fairly reliable degree of cousinship.
This obviously indicates that you share mutual great grandparents with match one and mutual 2G grandparents with match two.
I am presuming that these two also match each other? If that is the case, after taking a deep breath, I suggest you contact both of these matches initially to see if they know each other, a strong possibility, and how they connect. Then contact some of the other matches to see what response you get.
I'll be very interested to know what you find out.
Regards Margaret
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Thanks for your advice Margaret! Much appreciated.
They are indeed links. Through various smart matches I've linked upwards of 15 4th cousins who all link with them (and confirmed 5 of those to link with one particular family line), and about 15 or so "distant cousins" of whom a few link with that same family line.
All this suggests, I think, that my connection must surely be to that family.
To be sensitive as to privacy, may I offer a quick hypothetical with different names: my 3rd cousin's great-grandfather is John Smythe. His mother is Mary Harper, and grandmother Ellen Sharp. John's wife is Eliza Downs.
Absolutely none of these names or places where they live appear in my existing tree.
Yet I have many matches to not only the Smythes, but also Harpers, Sharps and Downs - all the "same" families, ie not just same surname, but have a genetic link to the main Smythe line.
My thinking is I must then be descended, in some hitherto unknown way, from John Smythe, and possibly his wife Eliza Downs?
I really hope that makes sense. It's something that I'd really love to have a sense of direction. I've now sent the messages advised and hoping for some results. What could I do next??
Very many thanks.
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Bill, You are definitely linked to this family, with so many connections.
I would be tempted to build a family tree, based on the parents of the couple you think you may be connected to. Follow all the children, male and female, as far as possible. You might find a time or a place that could link the families.
Informal adoption is another possibility. Your 'old' family, for want of a better phrase, might have taken in an orphan from a completely unknown couple. In this case, little did people of that timeframe know what was coming in the future.
Regards Margaret
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Thanks again, Margaret.
I've had a look at the descendants of the ubiquitous couple ("John Smythe and Eliza Downs"). Amazingly, whilst they all came from a different county, their youngest son had moved and was actually living just 2-3 miles from where my grandfather was born, at the right time. There is also a grandson to the couple that seems to have lived in the area.
The insinuation here would be that my grandfather's birth father may be in doubt. To be honest, his parents had married only very shortly (a matter of days) before he was born. I wonder if his biological father was perhaps the son or grandson of the couple.
Would this make sense? My third cousin match would then be the great-grandaughter of either my great-great-grandparents or great-great-great-grandparents. I wonder if that sounds about right. We share 140 centimorgans.
I also want to say that I match with a known and proven full second cousin (on another side), but my genetic match with her is less than with these unknown 2nd and 3rds!! This does suggest they are quite close indeed?
All very intriguing, and I really thank you Margaret for giving your guidance!
Bill
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I have 2 people suggested as 3rd cousins by ancestry. They share 153 cM across 7 segments and 132 cM across 7 segments.
They do not match each other and me at 4 to 6 cousin level, maybe they do at 5 to 8 cousin level. However, they are both actual 3rd cousins, descended from our mutual 2G grandparents.
DNA inheritance is variable, but 140 cM seems quite a lot. How much do you share with the 2nd cousin match? Considerably more, or just a little bit to get her over the threshold between 3rd and 2nd cousin? They could be of the same generation or a different generation, and I think it will help matters if you can verify this.
http://thednageek.com/the-limits-of-predicting-relationships-using-dna/
I think you may have hit the nail on the head about your great grandfather, especially since he was first born son, and born so soon after the marriage of your 2G grandmother. And in a place that you can relate to. Plenty of marriages in my family and a baby born a few months later, but usually as soon as the pregnancy would have been found out about. A marriage a few days before the birth does indicate the possibility of a different father.
Now you have found a possible name for your ancestor, I would follow him and build a tree assuming that it is him, whilst not as yet connectIng him to your tree. That way, if anyone does reply to your messages, you will have an idea who, what and where you are talking about.
I have done that with a family in my tree. My 2G grandfather John Steer 1814 gave his father's name as George Dawson when he married. His brother 1816 gave father's name as Dawes Steer. I have found a George Dawes in the same village in census, married 1816. Whilst realising this may be a complete red herring I have followed George Dawes and all his children for as many generations as possible, hoping for a DNA match. No luck so far, but you already have the DNA match.
Good luck,
Regards Margaret
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living just 2-3 miles from where my grandfather was born, at the right time. There is also a grandson to the couple that seems to have lived in the area.
The insinuation here would be that my grandfather's birth father may be in doubt. To be honest, his parents had married only very shortly (a matter of days) before he was born. I wonder if his biological father was perhaps the son or grandson of the couple.
Would this make sense?
Bill
You have already been given some good advice, mine is to then look for matches on your 'grandfathers' side to see if they exist. Or Great-Grandfather as it may be.
ie you look to link to this other family but do you also link to your GGrandfathers side? If you havent found any links from there then its a strong possibility.
I hope this makes sense
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Oh dear. Not to detract from your post, however, I have discovered something about George Dawes of Limpsfield.
"I have done that with a family in my tree. My 2G grandfather John Steer 1814 gave his father's name as George Dawson when he married. His brother 1816 gave father's name as Dawes Steer. I have found a George Dawes in the same village in census, married 1816. Whilst realising this may be a complete red herring I have followed George Dawes and all his children for as many generations as possible, hoping for a DNA match"
I had followed George Dawes and children, but had not fully followed the children of my 3G grandmother, Mary Anne Steer who went on to marry James Wood in 1818.
In 1861 census, one of the daughters, Jane Ann White nee Wood, was with her husband and family in Westerham, Kent. 'Visiting' next door is Elizabeth Dawes, widow of George Dawes. Maybe coincidence, maybe not. Probably the former, but you never know.
We might both be on the way to finding out more about our 3G grandfathers.
Regards Margaret
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Question for Billesher
Billesher,
May I ask when you say you have made connections does this mean you have contacted the people who you have been shown to have matches in common with or did you just make these connections by looking at their online trees only.
Thank you
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Thank you David and David for your excellent suggestions.
I've used the surname search on all my great-grandfather's lines, and found no meaningful connections: none at all for his mother and both grandmothers' rare names, and no obviously pertinent matches for his own extremely common surname.
I also tried searching in the 'place search' for the main areas in his ancestry, and again received negligible results.
Of course, I've also looked into those without trees (who wouldn't come up on such a search as I understand), and none of those seem relevant.
Anther point is that I know there is an American mormon distant branch on that side, who are very involved in genealogy and I was expecting to see them come up in my matches.
In short, I've yet to come across any match that I can say matches any lines of that great-grandfather's family.
As for your question, it's mostly based on looking at their trees (the ones that have comprehensive ones), as well as my own research into their trees (eg the ones that only go back 1-2 generations). When tracing these back, I was astounding to keep coming back to the same names and places, eg the "Smythe" family.
I have contacted the closer connections, and only 2 have replied, one we can't find the connection as their paternal side is unknown, and the other, has a comprehensive tree in the same vicinity as the "Smythe" family, with a potential link in the mid-18th century.
I would very much like to hear how you would continue to approach this, what the steps would be. So far you've both given me such guidance and much to work on.
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I would download my files to as many sites as possible ie gedmatch and MyHeritage allow free uploads
Or any other site that does. The idea behind this is to cast your net but also to remove any bias in the results
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I agree with David about uploading to other sites, always good to look at more matches.
Other than that, there probably isn't much more you can do at this stage. At the moment it is speculation, but highly likely. Until the 2nd and 3rd cousins reply, it remains speculation. I suggest you watch and wait, sooner or later you might contact someone who was told a tale about her ancestor having a 'fling' before he was married.
Have you got your grandfather's birth certificate, or looked up details on GRO? I was searching long and hard for a birth registration for one family member, no signs at all. I later found him registered under his mother's surname, though she had married by that stage.
I think you have to assume that you have discovered your real great grandfather (or at least, his siblings and parents) unless other evidence comes along to refute it. Build a tree around the new man, just like you did when you started researching your family tree, (many long years ago?).
In some ways it's like an adoptee today doing their DNA - start off investigating likely matches, what family names to pursue and build up a case for and against different candidates, if any.
Regards Margaret
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Quick note about surname searches at ancestry, in case you hadn't realised. They are not reliable at all, missing some good matches.
I was beginning to think the same as you, that my Steer line was in dispute, as I found no Steer matches at all for my great grandfather's line, plenty for his wife's line. Browsing new matches I came across someone with the same Steer line as mine, but she didn't show up in surname search.
In your case, had it only been 4 to 6 cousins you matched with, I doubt if you would have found out what you have so far, you would just have wondered how they all connected to you.
Regards Margaret