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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: daveroot on Saturday 19 May 18 16:31 BST (UK)
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Hi - Tracing my wife's family and we have a John Yates b 14/11/1889. I'm sure I've found him in the 1891 census (with parents Henry and Elizabeth plus siblings in Bermondsey) but his age there is given as 2. How accurate were the census re age? Could he have been recorded as 2 even though he was only 1 and a half? I can only find the family again in the 1901 census (in Chertsey). Can't see his father in 1881 nor the family in 1911. Any help gratefully received.
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Your query regarding age could equally apply to the 1901 census where he is recorded as being 12 :-*
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Yes, I did note that. I can't find any other Johns born about that time who come from that area. But then again I can't find his father (if it is him!) Henry's birth record - from the 1901 census he's meant to have been born Walworth 1859-60 but the only one I can find is a Henry Thomas b Newington Dec 1859 so that must be him.
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The family minus Henry jnr & John are at the same address as 1901 in 1911
Keyboard86
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Where did you find his date of birth? Is it accurate?
Have you checked the GRO Index Search for John's siblings, to establish his mother's maiden name?
There is a John Robert Yates, birth Sept qtr 1888, MMN Railse.
And a possible marriage of Henry Yates to Elizabeth Rouse in 1881?
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Hi Henry jnr is married to a Clara with a Winifred aged 8 months in Chertsey
Keyboard86
EDIT This Henry married 1909 as Henry Frederick J Yates he has mmn as ROUSE
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The family in 1901/11 were living at 22, Victoria Road, Addlestone a marriage of a John Robert Yates of 22, Victoria Road, Addlestone took place 8th November 1915 to an Ella Annie Dollery, his father being Henry Thomas Yates occ Painter
So where did the full birth date for John come from?
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OK I can see where the 14th November 1889 comes from, did your John Yates marry a Georgina Edginton in Dec qtr 1911 Southwark?
Keyboard86
His father was a Charles occ Carman?
John Yates b 14th November 1889 died Dec qtr 1973 Lewisham aged 84
Georgina A Yates died June qtr 1928 Lewisham aged 40
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Thanks - yes, our John married Georgina Edginton. The problem is finding his roots - just got his dob from the 1939 register.
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Thanks - yes, our John married Georgina Edginton.
:) So now you will have to look for a John with father Charles?
Keyboard86
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Yes, sorry. forgot we had Charles as a father! Even so, 1939 has John's dob as 11/1889 yet his mc in Dec 1911 has him as 23. All I can assume is that the 1939 entry was written incorrectly. Would be great if anyone could find his father.
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From the Marriage Certificate - what was John's occupation?
What was his father's occupation?
From FamilySearch, the following 1911 census looks likely?
Yates, Charles Head M 46 Builder b Stepney
Yates, Mary Ann Wife F 46 b Stepney
Yates, Mary Ann Daughter F 25 b Greenwich
Yates, John Son M 22 Bricklayer b Bromley East
Yates, Florence Daughter F 19 b Bromley East
Yates, James William Son M 17 b Bromley East
Yates, Ellen Francis Daughter F 13 b Bromley East
Yates, Grace Daughter F 11 b Bromley East
Austin, James Brother-in-Law M 50 b Stepney
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Marriage certificate shows Charles Yates, father, was a Carman - John's own profession was Pastry Cook, so that 1911 census looks unlikely.
Annette
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Thanks - that was what I thought. Perhaps there's a misspelt 19911 entry?
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Hi their is a British Army Pension record for John Yates, mention of marrying Annie Georgina/Georgina Annie, and the birth dates of his two children.
Keyboard86
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OK let's try another angle, the wife of John Yates was Georgina Annie Edginton their children in 1912 & 1915 have mmn Edginton, a Georgina A Yates dies Lewisham 1928 aged 40, the only birth I can locate is in Reading Dec qtr 1887 mmn Parsons and a possible brother Albert Edward Dec 1893 St Olave mmn Parsons, where are they 1891/1901?
Their is a marriage of a George Robert Edginton to Georgina Annie Parsons March qtr 1888 Reading?
Keyboard86
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OK let's try another angle, the wife of John Yates was Georgina Annie Edginton their children in 1912 & 1915 have mmn Edginton, a Georgina A Yates dies Lewisham 1928 aged 40, the only birth I can locate is in Reading Dec qtr 1887 mmn Parsons and a possible brother Albert Edward Dec 1893 St Olave mmn Parsons, where are they 1891/1901?
Their is a marriage of a George Robert Edginton to Georgina Annie Parsons March qtr 1888 Reading?
Keyboard86 Hit wrong button!
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a marriage of a George Robert Edginton to Georgina Annie Parsons March qtr 1888 Reading?
Georgina Annie Edginton goes into the Bucks asylum, 24 Feb 1910, so this is probably her in the free index to 1911
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7V5-X32
She was sent to Hanwell in January 1897, and seems to have been moved from there to the Berkshire asylum on 1 October same year. And from there eventually on to Stone, since the dates follow on exactly.
So presumably she was in the Berkshire asylum in 1901.
Her 1897 admission to Hanwell was from Newington Workhouse and the Reception Order is on ancestry.
Georgina Annie Edginton
Married, age 31, occupation Charing
Husband George Robert Edginton, address unknown (did he die in 1898?)
Apparently she was rushing about all over the place in an excited manner, throwing her legs and arms about, behaving in a strange manner, and talking a lot of rubbish.
Says Order on Reading, so that could explain that first move.
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Admitted to Mint Street Workhouse, Southwark, 3.1.96
Georgina Edginton 30
Georgina Edginton 9
Geo Rbt Edginton 8
Alb Edw Edginton 3
Discharged same day
Back again on the 17th January 1896??
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Thanks - that is the right family. Still can't find the 1911 entry for the Yates - tried every combination of names and address but no sign.
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But have you found Georgina in 1911 - John might be nearby?
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There's a quick change of occupation for John, from pastry cook on the marriage to porter on the baptism of son John Robert, 5 June 1912, Bermondsey. Mother's names are switched round on that baptism (Annie Georgina)
JR was said to be born 9 May 1912, and the marriage of John + Georgina was 24 Dec 1911, so they had known each other for a while before that! So it would be good to find her in 1911.
Birth, Sep 1912 Southwark
Yates, John R.
mother Edginton
(registered a bit late?)
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Abode on that baptism is 39 Westcott Street.
Marriage witness Robert A Bavin may have been the son of a carman in Westcott Street. If so he was only 16. Or was it his father Robert, who seems to have married Elizabeth Slade in 1889 as George Robert.
Don't know if it's worth investigating them.
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Strangely there's a 22 year old John Bavin in Westcott Street, whose father is Charles, a Carman.
A couple of cooks (occupation) in the household too.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWPN-HRB
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I had previously wondered whether the Yates and Bavins are the same family as the dates certainly fit for John's birth and as you say the father is a Charles which we can't find for Yates for 1911. Why would they have 2 surnames though?
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Charles married a Slade as well
28 June 1892, St John Walworth
Charles Bavin, 24, Bachelor, Carman, father John Bavin, Dock Labourer
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Mary Ann Slade, 24, Spinster, father Edward Slade, Brush Maker
I got the wrong Robert for marriage witness!
Robert Alfred was the son of Charles and Mary Ann (not Robert + Elizabeth)
Baptized at St John Walworth, 2 June 1895
Born 6 May, father Charles William, a Carman
June 1895 St Saviour Southwark
Bavin, Robert Alfred
mother Slade
So the son John was born before Charles and Mary Ann married.
Why would they have 2 surnames though?
We have to find them all before that marriage in 1892!
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There's this family in Bermondsey in 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q9HM-8T2
Thomas Yates 25
Mary A Yates 23
Thomas Yates 3
John Yates 1
Possible birth registrations, not in Bermondsey
Sep 1887 St Saviour 1d 39
Yates, Thomas
mother Slade
Dec 1889 St Saviour 1d 42
Yates, John
mother Slade
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Haven't found any baptisms to Thomas + Mary Ann Yates so far. Or a marriage.
On 20 Nov 1889 at St John Walworth, a double baptism - John Yates and Priscilla Yates, parents John and Mary Ann. Father a Carman. Abode 11 Liscott Street.
Just thought I'd throw it in!
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Here are the Bavins in 1901.
Baven on here for some reason, it's quite clearly Bavin on the original
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9HS-L57
Son John, 11, born Westcott St
No sign of a Thomas, or a Priscilla! Could Liscott Street have been an error for Westcott on those baptisms - though they may not be connected - I can't find any such street.
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Anyway, Charles Bavin, 22, Carman, is at 41 Westcott Street in 1891, and seemingly is not Mr. Yates!
Age is wrong on this transcription
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QHNS-XZM
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1890 electoral register has
John Bavin at 41 Westcott Street
William Slade at 11 Westcott Street
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9FL-39JZ-2?i=294&cc=2228170
It seems possible that Mary Ann Slade was in a relationship with, but not married to, Mr Yates, and had son John. Then she married Charles Bavin, and John appears as Bavin in the 1901 and 1911 census.
If you think this is plausible, you may need that 1889 St Saviour birth certificate for John.
John
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Hi cannot figure out yet where the children are but in 1901 Wallingford is a G A Edginton 32 occ Charwoman Lunatic with a J Eggleton 35 and G Edginton 29 b Wokingham
Census ref RG13/1138/134/11
Only a posible though for her!
Keyboard86
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Thanks for all your help - especially with the Yates/Bavin possibilities. What concerns me though is if Jonw65 is correct and Jon appears as Bavin in the 1901 and 1911 censuses, why then is he married as John Yates later in 1911 with his father listed on the certificate as Charles YATES, and when a Bavin is one of the witnesses?
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The more I've looked into it, the more likely I think the Bavin connection is. The names all fit; it can't just be coincidence that John's mother was a Mary Ann Slade, and there's a Mary Ann Slade married to a Charles Bavin whose son is witness to John's wedding. Also, in the 1911 census, number of years married is given as 24, yet we know Charles and Mary married in 1892 - perhaps this was done for John's sake as he was 22 then. I still don't fully understand John's mc - if he knew he had been born out of wedlock to a Yates then I can see he might want to honour that, but why would his father be down as Charles Yates when that man is Charles Bavin - wouldn't that be fraud or didn't they check things particularly closely then?
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Hi
I don't think they needed to prove who they were. It's not unusual to see dodgy details for the father! It's seems to be an amalgam of two people, father and step father.
Of course we only know what Charles Bavin put down on the census form. John could have been known as Yates rather than Bavin in everyday life.
A sensational development! Possibly.
Looking for that older brother Thomas Yates - I thought he must have died before 1901, but it appears not (can't see a death under Yates or Bavin or even Slade)
Could this be him, and father Thomas in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9H8-8LK
His place of birth is different in the next census. Father Thomas a Carman.
Looking at birth registrations of the younger children, Louisa's maiden name is Monger
And Thomas Yates, a Carman, married Louisa Monger at St John Waltworth, 22 May 1891.
That's less than two months after we saw Thomas and Mary (hopefully nee Slade) in Bermondsey in the census.
Louisa appears to be with her father William the wood chopper in the 1891 census (as Munger).
So it's possible that Thomas Yates and Mary Ann Slade broke up, found new partners, and divided their two children between them? Slightly unusual perhaps.
John