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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: PAK on Saturday 19 May 18 20:36 BST (UK)
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James Murphy was born 25.11.1890 in Aspull to Patrick and Bridget.
I found him in 1891 and 1901 but not yet in 1911, though there is one that's a probability.
He married Elizabeth Ann Longley in Horwich 1912.
There is a family story that Patrick’s two sons, John and James Murphy, were both killed in World War I within a fortnight of each other and are commemorated on the war memorial at Horwich. But this only shows one “J.Murphy” although there is as yet no trace of James beyond his marriage in 1912. I know that John was killed in action on 17.9.1914.
They did have a daughter Eileen born in 1915 but she may have been born after his death.
I've scoured as many sources as I can but found no answers. possibly because it is such a common name, so if he/they moved away from Lancashire it becomes very difficult to track him/them down. My gut feeling is that he was killed in the war but war deaths are usually well commemorated so it's odd that I can't find any definite reference.
Is there a single comprehensive source that records all those killed in action in WW1? I thought CWGC would, but apparently not. Any info or advice gratefully received. Except for "Give up", which has already crossed my mind! But this is for my wife's elderly aunt and I am hoping to report to her as a birthday surprise in July.
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Just checking the basics. The only John Murphy the CWGC have with a date of death of 17 Sep 1914 is a Lancashire Fusilier the husband of Catherine Foster (formerly Murphy) of Deane Street Bolton. Is that your John? There are no CWGC records in Sep 1914 for a J Murphy with father Patrick.
MaxD
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Yes that is James' brother John.
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Another trawl on CWGC and the on-line records for James Murphy of the Bolton area with a date of death 1 Sep 1914 to 7 October 1914 does not find a James Murphy that would fit.
The telling thing is that you find only one J Murphy on the Horwich Memorial so that element of the family story is wrong. War memorial names were collected by local committees after the war using newspapers, church announcements and so on to get families to come forward with their names. It seems inconceivable that the family would give one name only of two brothers. One might also expect to find a newspaper article where two members of one family were lost close together.
Could it simply be that, like the memorial, the family corporate memory has become garbled over the intervening 100 years? Or that James and wife moved away as you have suggested and the family lost touch and assumed he had fallen?
MaxD
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Max
I have been wondering about the possibility of a family myth myself but have not been able to find any trace of him later.
However, as a result of your reply I found at https://www.2ndbtnlancfus.com/m.html a record of John but with date of death shown as 17th October rather than September. There is also a James Murphy in the same battalion, private 3655, died 27th May 1915. Do you have access to any information about him? It seems quite likely they would be in the same battalion and at least I'd like to eliminate this one if necessary.
I wouldn't be surprised if the family story was wrong with the dates but the essential point that both brothers were killed seems a dramatic myth to invent.
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If you search for 3655 J Murphy on the CWGC site it confirms him as 'Son-in-law of Mr. J. S. Longley, of 38, Neden St., Openshaw, Manchester'
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3655 James Murphy 27 May 1915 had wife Elizabeth and a child (no name) and father in law John Longley of Openshaw Manchester (CWGC) cross checks with Effects Register. (Jomot has seen this)
217 John Murphy date of death on CWGC is 17 Sep 1914, cross checks on the effects register supported by his effects going to Catherine in March 1915 and his medal records.
Had a look at the other Murphys in case there was a name mix up, none have the parents Patrick and Bridget.
Checking Lancashire Fusiliers against CWGC and the Effects register who fell 23 Aug 1914 to 1 Dec 1914 gives John and a Thomas (parents William and Ellen).
No further ideas I'm afraid, outside the Lancashire Fusiliers the field is too wide, 23 army named Murphy in the above period.
MaxD
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Hi Max,
The Effects Register giving his name as James seems to confirm this is the right man:
James Murphy was born 25.11.1890 in Aspull to Patrick and Bridget.
I found him in 1891 and 1901 but not yet in 1911, though there is one that's a probability.
He married Elizabeth Ann Longley in Horwich 1912.
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Yes!
He's the one. Many, many thanks.
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Glad we found him. Does show how family stories do get garble though, much more than two weeks between the two men! I zeroed in on that fact too much!
MaxD
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Would you add their names to
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/ww1-in-memoriam/
This is Rootschatters' tribute to our WW1 fallen.
Philip
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Philip
I have posted though, immediately after I set it up, realised that through a typo I had entered the date of his death as 1914 and not 1915.
Added a note to the post to that effect but if you know of any way it can be corrected, please feel free to advise.
Thank you.