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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: graemejmcleod on Monday 21 May 18 21:50 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to research my ancestor James MacGregor born 1829 in Callander, son of Duncan Macgrigor (MacGregor??) who was a builder (possibly bridge builder). James and his brother, Duncan were twins, the youngest of 10 - 12 children. I'm wondering if anybody knows where they might have lived in Callander, or really, any other information which might be relevant. James eventually became a Doctor of Divinity in Edinburgh and emigrated to New Zealand in 1881 for the sake of his children's health. I am descended from him.
Graeme McLeod
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Have you checked the 1841 and 1851 census?'
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Hi Graeme,
Jame's brother Duncan is most likely the Duncan who died in Ruinacraig, Balquhidder, in 1889, aged 60. He was a builder, widower of Christine McGregor, and he says his father was Duncan McGregor, a mason, and his mother was Helen McPhason. He is probably the same Duncan recorded as a lodger on the 1851 census in Muiravonside, Stirlingshire, a mason aged 21, with another mason called Duncan McGregor, aged 68, both say they were born in Callander. Duncan and his brother James are on the 1841 census of Callander, aged 12, with their mother Helen, aged 50.
Helen is most likely the Helen on the following Callander gravestone;
By Wlliam McPherson in memory of his mother Isabella McPherson 2.1815 61, brother Duncan McPherson died Jamaica 2.1821 27, sister Helen McPherson 17.6.1865 80 (wife of Duncan McGregor mason Callander)
Duncan is buried elsewhere in the same graveyard with his son;
Duncan MacGregor 29.1.1853 70, son Angus 15.8.1843 33
This ties in with the following marriage banns and baptisms:
1807 Duncan + Helen McPherson Callander [both Callander]
1807 Duncan/Helen MacPherson Margaret Callander [possibly Brig o' Turk]
1809 Duncan/Helen MacPherson Angus Callander
1810 Duncan/Helen MacPherson Anne Callander
1814 Duncan Helen MacPherson Duncan Callander
1816 Duncan/Helen MacPherson John Callander
1822 Duncan/Helen MacPherson Robert Callander
1824 Duncan/Helen MacPherson Donald Callander
1826 Duncan/Helen MacPherson William Callander
1829 Duncan/Helen MacPherson Duncan Callander
1829 Duncan/Helen MacPherson James Callander
Given the age of Helen's husband from the 1851 census and gravestone, and the fact he says he was born in Callander on the census, he is most likely the son of Duncan and Ann Cameron. Not only does the age match, but it's also the names of his second born son and daughter. That family was;
1771 Duncan + Ann Cameron [Callander]
1772 Duncan/Ann Cameron John Callander
1774 Duncan/Ann Cameron John Kirktown Callander
1778 Duncan/Ann Cameron Donald Kirktown Callander
1782 Duncan/Ann Cameron Duncan Kirktown Callander
I hope this helps,
John.
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John and Karen
Many thanks for your information -it's great to have local information. All I have to do now is find somebody with a key to the old cemetery - it's chained and padlocked!
Thanks again
Graeme
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Someone vandalised the monuments at Leny last year, so maybe they're locking up the old graveyards now. I was there a few years ago, and it was open, but many of the inscriptions are worn down. The stone they used is easily weathered. My family plaque was gone, presumably it fell off the wall and was taken away. I bought a copy of South Perthshire Monument Inscriptions, which contains old surveys, some from over a hundred years ago, when the gravestones were more legible. It also has maps of the graves. It says Helen's grave is next to the wall on the right from the gate, midway between the watch house and the roadside wall. It doesn't say where Duncan's grave is, presumable because the marker was gone when they made the map, but from the number system the original survey used I'd guess it was also next to the wall on the right from the gate, behind Helen's, but not right behind, very close to the watch house.
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One more thing from the South Perthshire Monument Inscriptions book, it says there's an 1832 dedication on the lintel of the watch house in the graveyard which lists the designer and builders, one of which is Dm M'Gre mason. I can't think of a name D...m, it must be D...n, and it's probably your ancestor who built it.
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Thanks again John. I did manage to track down a Council spokesperson who said that entry is now forbidden, but there may be an escorted opening last week in June. Just a maybe! Woman at our hotel thought a boy was killed there by a falling headstone a couple of years ago.
We're in Edzell now looking for Golds, Dukes and maybe Pattersons. The Golds and Dukes were on my father's side and the Pattersons on my mothers side - no known connection locally - had to wait until arrival in NZ to get acquainted ! Thanks again - Graeme
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I too am trying to get further back in my McGregor Tree, my McGregors are from Auchtergaven, Logierait, Culltintogle, Callander...my 3 times great grandfather Charles McGregor born in Caputh on 1786 was head forester for the 4th Duke Murray at Blair Atholl Castle, his father John born 1758 in Cullintogle was also head foresters as was Charles son John born 1823. Charles was married to Helen Low/Lowe, their children were Janet, Mary, Elizabeth,John, Helen, Patrick,Jean, James, Ann and Margaret all born between 1817 - 1835. Where it gets confusing is, Charles father John was married to Mary Young but I can't find much info on Mary Young born 1760, John's parents which I don't know if this is where it goes awry and maybe into another McGregor clan Donald McGregor alias Stirling (Achrakarran, Perthshire) born 1733 married to Mary McLaren born in Balquidder 1730, this seems to be where the connection to the Balquidder McGregors come about but as we all know, some ancestry families connect people who are not necessarily connected to that family line and it goes off fact. Donald's father I have as Patrick McGregor alias Stirling born 1702, married to Janet Ferguson....Patrick's father I have as John Iain Og Murray McGregor (1st of Glencarnoch) born Glencarnoch, Balquidder 1668 and married to Lady Catherine Campbell born 1674 .
My worry is, is this definitely my family line or has some of this information on Ancestry through other families ancestry gotten the McGregors confused. I just want to know if my Charles McGregor is of same lineage as this John Iain Og Murray McGregor. I have many other brothers, sisters etc on my family tree but I would love to know all the children of each of these parents I have named if they are indeed connected back to John Iain Og Murray McGregor just so I can check them off as some of the children down the line seem to be born in different Perthshire areas, some of them born in same areas.
Any information grateful received thank you.
Elaine
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There was a tribe of MacGregors in Rannoch, so tenants of the duke of Atholl, who therefore used his name Murray when MacGregor was still proscribed. Might explain your Murray MacGregor origins?
Skoosh.
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There was a tribe of MacGregors in Rannoch, so tenants of the duke of Atholl, who therefore used his name Murray when MacGregor was still proscribed. Might explain your Murray MacGregor origins?
Skoosh.
Thanks, I'll check that out. My McGregor family lived in the Cowford Cottages outside Bankfoot and not far from Auchtergaven, these cottages and farm was owned by Blair Atholl. My great grandfather William Scott McGregor was born illegitimately to Charles daughter Helen McGregor, at some point in his life he took on his father's surname Scott (farmer of the Cowford farm) and Scott was his son,my Grandfather's surname but he had McGregor as a middle name.
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Hi Elaine,
Have you seen the obituary in The Chronicles of the Atholl and Tullibardine Families Volume IV? In case you haven't, here it is;
January 12th 1892. The Duke lost the services of John MacGregor, head-wood-forester for thirty years, who died at Ladywell of influenza and inflammation of the lungs. His wife had been ill for some time of the same complaint, and only survived him two days. The double funeral took place at Little Dunkeld on the 18th, the pipers of the Athole Highlanders attending, and the members of the Dunkeld Curling Club parading in uniform.
John MacGregor was son of the late Charles MacGregor, formerly in the service of the 4th Duke, James Lord Glenlyon, and the 6th Duke. John had served in the Athole Highlanders since 1842, in which corps he was a sergeant at the time of his death.
Looking through all the volumes, Charles MacGregor is mentioned on 24 April 1830 as a Wood Forester of Blair Atholl.
Looking at the statuary records I can follow Charles and his family back to his wedding to Helen Low in 1816, but no further back. I can't find a christening. Did you get Caputh as his birth place from the census records? And his parents John and Mary Young from his death certificate? Or do you have a christening record?
The Chronicles of the Atholl and Tullibardine Families list the Head Foresters as;
Before 1794 to 1838 John Crerar
1838 to 1847 Peter Fraser
1847 to 1864 Alexander McAra
1864 to after 1884 Donald McBeath
So, it looks like Head Wood-Forester was a different job to Head Forester. I though that John Crerar could be Charles' father using a clan Gregor alias, but the chronicles say John Crerar's wife was Annie Stewart.
How do you know Charles' father was born in 1758 at Cullintogle?
I have that family as;
1751 Donald McLeran[McKinlay]/Mary McLeran John Miln of Leny Callander
1752 Donald McLeran [McGregor]/Mary McLeran Patrick Blairgarrie Callander
1753 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Duncan Cullintogle Callander
1756 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Janet Milntown Callander
1758 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran John Cullintogle Callander
1760 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Margaret Cullintogle Callander
1762 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren John Milntown Callander
1766 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren Daniel Miltown Callander
So, John 1758 may have died young, as there's a John 1762, or I might have conflated two different families. How do you connect this Donald to the Donald christened in 1733? I have the parish register entry, but I don't know what evidence there is that this is the same Donald;
1733 Patrick Stirling alias McGregor/Janet Ferguson Donald Achnakarran Callander
How do you connect this Patrick to Glencarnoch? Glencarnoch's descendant, Amelia Georgiana Murray MacGregor of MacGregor, wrote several histories at the end of the Nineteenth Century. She says his son;
Peter who married and left one daughter [who was] married to Mr John Gregorson an officer in the 2d Royal Americans.
Peter's nephew by his youngest brother, Sir John Murray of Lanrick, was elected chief in 1775, presumably because there were no surviving male children from his father's brothers. This supports Amelia's claim that Peter didn't leave a son.
John.
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Hi Elaine,
Another note I have about this family;
1751 Donald McLeran[McKinlay]/Mary McLeran John Miln of Leny Callander
1752 Donald McLeran [McGregor]/Mary McLeran Patrick Blairgarrie Callander
1753 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Duncan Cullintogle Callander
1756 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Janet Milntown Callander
1758 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran John Cullintogle Callander
1760 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Margaret Cullintogle Callander
1762 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren John Milntown Callander
1766 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren Daniel Miltown Callander
is that it could be the same couple as;
1769 Daniel McGregor/Mary McLaren Daniel Drunkey Port of Monteith
And, if so, he could be the brother of;
1767 Duncan Mcgregor+Janet Campbell Port of Monteith
1768 Duncan McGregor/Janet Campbell Patrick Drunkey Port of Monteith
1776 Duncan Mcgregor+Isabel Frazer Port of Monteith
1777 Duncan Mcgregor/Isabel Frazer Margaret Port of Monteith
1777 Duncan Mcgregor/Isabel Frazer Patrick Drunkie Port of Monteith
But I'm not so sure about this.
I also have a note that he could be the Donald McComas of Callander who married Grisal McLeran of Port in 1747, and Grisal is Mary. This is very tenuous, but the MacGregors who used the alias McComas were a large family in the area. If he was the same person, then he may have been the brother of Alexander, who lived at Milntown and Brig O' Turk, and Alexander was most likely the son of John and Anne Ferguson.
John.
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Hi John
Thanks for your replies, am on here for short time so I'll copy and paste the information from our book of Charles McGregor which a distant relative of mine who is also connected to Charles McGregor got an archivist onto our McGregor line around Charles and father John and son John..I'll copy and paste the excerpts from the copy of the book that Myra sent me from New Zealand.
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Your great-great-great-grandfather Charles McGregor was born in Caputh, Perthshire, about 1786, according to Census records, and died on 26th March 1868, at Cowford Cottage, Auchtergaven. On his death certificate his parents were John McGregor and Mary Young, but I have not yet found his birth details. He married Helen Lowe in Dunkeld , perhaps in the church in the photo, on 10th March 1816. She was born in 1796, in Little Dunkeld , to Peter Lowe and Janet Gow. In the 1851 Census Record for John McGregor, the son of Charles and Helen, I found Helen’s mother, Janet Lowe, listed as his Grandmother, a retired midwife. I also found her in the 1841 Census, again her occupation is midwife. Charles’ wife Helen died in Kinnaird in 1839 aged 43. Charles died 26 March 1868 at Cowford Cottage, Auchtergaven, and is buried in Little Dunkeld
1870 – In memory of CHARLES MCGREGOR who died at Cowford 26th March 1868 aged 81 years and of HELEN LOWE, his wife, who died at Kinnaird 8th September 1839 aged 43 years and of JAMES GLENLYON, their son, who died at Kinnaird 29th September 1838 aged 7 years, also of their daughter MARGARET who died at Airthrey 5th February 1874 aged 38 years and was buried in Logie Churchyard and of JANE ANDERSON, wife of JOHN McGREGOR their son, who died at Ladywell 6th January 1875, also of the
above named JOHN McGREGOR, Wood Manager on the Atholl Estates, who died at Ladywell 12th January 1892 aged 69 and of his second wife ANNIE GRAW who died at Ladywell 14th January 1892 buried hee together 15th January 1892.
The details of his employment I got first from Census Records, but a friend, Peter Stewart, had a G-G-G-Grandfather who was a ghillie (gamekeeper) for the Duke of Atholl around the same time as Charles was there. Peter owns a whole set of books called “The Chronicles of Atholl and Tullibardine Families” which is a diary of the daily happenings in the Atholl Estate. There are quite a few references to Charles McGregor in it, which Peter allowed me to copy, and I have reproduced them here. Note that the spelling is sometimes McGrigor.
As you see, the children were all born in different places, which I have to assume is a result of their father’s occupation, as he would have moved around as a forester for the Duke of Atholl’s Estate, starting as a Ground Officer, and later becoming the Head Forester. This copy of some of the Perthshire parishes shows that these places were very near to or even bounded each other.
Their children were:
Janet McGregor born 11 March 1817 at Dunkeld, Mary McGregor born 7 January 1819 at Dunkeld
John McGregor born 9 February 1823 at Logierait
Helen McGregor born 18 January 1825 at Logierait -my great great Grandmother
Patrick McGregor born 17 January1827 at Forteviot
Jean McGregor born 5 January 1829 at Little Dunkeld
James Glenlyon McGregor born 19 May 1831 at Blair Atholl
Ann McGregor, born 29 June 1833 at Moulin
Margaret McGregor born 4 June 1935 at Moulin
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part 2:
Blair Castle. in Perthshire, is the centre of a designed and heavily wooded landscape, begun by the 4th or “Planting Duke”. Before he died in 1830, he had covered some 10,000 acres of Perthshire with over 14,000,000 larches, and his nurseries were supplying seed and seedlings to other Scottish enthusiasts.
This is one of Scotlands oldest managed forests and was created from larch seed brought from the Alps for the Second Duke of Atholl. Such plantings were part of the great expansion of forestry in the eighteenth and early nineteenth century which centred on Perthshire. Between 1738 and 1830 the `Planting` Dukes of Atholl planted some 27 million conifers - `for beauty and profit` - around Dunkeld. Many innovative techniques were employed including scattering seed by cannon.
Many of the original trees are still there, so just think that if we could visit there, we might see trees which were planted and looked after by Charles McGregor. Ecology and carbon footprints are not new to Scotland! Most of the landscape features were established during the 18th and 19th centuries. The castle has been the home of the Dukes of Atholl since before the Crusades. At the time Charles McGregor was Head Forester, and his family were there, his employer was the 6th Duke, whose wife was Anne Home Drummond, who was Lady-in-Waiting and Mistress of the robes to Queen Victoria. (More of her later).
This 6th Duke, as Lord Glenlyon, formed the Atholl Highlanders in 1839 as his personal bodyguard. In 1844, when Queen Victoria stayed at Blair Castle, the Atholl Highlanders provided the guard for the Queen. So impressed was she with their turnout that she ordered they be presented with colours, giving them official status as a British regiment.( More of them later, too.)
In addition to the information I got from Peter, I wrote to the Blair Castle Archivist who was good enough to send me copies of letters, written by Charles, which I have transcribed and included here: - Just think that he wrote these letters about 170 years ago. The spelling, grammar and handwriting are not too bad, are they?
Of course, he was a “humble and obedient servant”!
Now, to backtrack to the Chronicles, there was another entry about Charles’ son John:
There are quite a few interesting facts about John McGregor. The Archivist at Blair Castle also sent me some details about him, including this photo, and the fact that he was a Sergeant in the “Atholl Highlanders”. .
This is the only private army in Britain and was started by the 4th Duke. Fifty years later, the 6th Duke resurrected the Atholl Highlanders as a bodyguard. In 1844 Queen Victoria stayed at Blair Castle as a guest of the Duke and during this visit the Queen announced that she would present the regiment with colours in recognition of their service.
Queen Victoria visited Blair Castle on a number of occasions which are all recorded in her diary. In 1865 she writes about going out riding with a group accompanied by her servant Brown. (Remember Billy Connolly as Brown in the film “Mrs Brown”)
They became lost in the mist, and in her diary she says
“There was by this time heavy driving rain with a thick mist. About a little more than an hour took us to the March, where two of the Dunkeld men met us. John McGregor, the Duke’s head wood-forester, and Gregor McGregor , the Duke’s gamekeeper, the former acting as a guide”.
I spent some time looking at Google for any connection between Blair Castle and Queen Victoria, and I found a few articles describing rumours that Queen Victoria and John Brown had married. It seems that there are some diaries of the time which state this. Much to my surprise I found John McGregor mentioned in some of the articles.
There are 2 photos of John son of Charles in his uniform as Sergeant in the Atholl Highlanders.
Back to me: As you can see from the above excerpts the archivist certainly furnished Myra with a lot of indepth information, it is quite a thick book of maps and copies of Charles McGregor's letters as Head Forester. There is so much more which I haven't really looked fully at. I have given the copy of the book of photocopies Myra sent me to my son who is getting married next week, he has been fitted and ordered the McGregor tartan Highland Dress, I think it is the ancient colour so I very much look forward to seeing him in all his full tartan. We, my family, are intending in the next few months to go to Blair Atholl Castle to walk the grounds of my great, great, great Grandfather and great, great uncle John. Hope this helps tie up my McGregors. I will look closer at all your information the next time I am on the computer. Bye for now.
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He married Helen Lowe in Dunkeld , perhaps in the church in the photo
In 1816, it's very unlikely indeed that they were married in the church building. The normal place for a wedding ceremony was the bride's parents' home or, if she had no parents or was marrying a long way from home, in the manse or in her employer's house. Towards the end of the 19th century it became more popular to marry in a hotel, restaurant or hall. Weddings in a church were very much the exception until the 20th century.
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I would add that my great, great, great, great Grandfather John McGrigor who was born in Cullingtogle which is in Callander, on30th October 1758 and baptised on 1st November 1758 in Callander...his father was Donald McGrigor who married Mary McLeran. I have a copy of John McGrigor's birth certificate. Can I upload it on here?
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He married Helen Lowe in Dunkeld , perhaps in the church in the photo
In 1816, it's very unlikely indeed that they were married in the church building. The normal place for a wedding ceremony was the bride's parents' home or, if she had no parents or was marrying a long way from home, in the manse or in her employer's house. Towards the end of the 19th century it became more popular to marry in a hotel, restaurant or hall. Weddings in a church were very much the exception until the 20th century.
I can only quote what Myra mentioned, she is only presuming so you could be right, I presume most of her information is from the Archivist who is attached to Blair Atholl. I hope to book this Archivist on the day me and my family visit the Castle from where I stay, in Fife not too far away.
Edit: Had a look at the saved images I have on Scotland's People. the marriage details of Helen Low/Lowe is that they got married in Little Dunkeld, her parents are Peter Low and Jean Gow both from Perthshire.
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Hi Elaine,
Yes, I think the parish registers record the reading of banns, not the actual wedding, which is why there are sometimes two entries, with slightly different dates, when the bride and groom attend different churches. However, your ancestors would have gone to that church, or a church which stood on the same site. When I was in Balquhidder, I walked from my ancestors' house to the kirk, along the path several generations of my family would have walked.
I am intrigued how you connect your John to Coilantogle, which is only about 50 miles away from the Atholl Estates, but would have been a journey of several days back then. Firstly, as I said before, it would mean that I have conflated two families, because of the baptism of another John in 1762. The mill at Blargarry is right next to Coilantogle, with Portnellan between the two, which is why I had assumed it was the same family. But their names are common, so it could be two different families with the same parental names. Looking at the dates, and not just the years, it looks like I am definitely wrong about the first John at the Mill of Leny. So, there is one set;
18/08/1751 Donald McLeran[McKinlay]/Mary McLeran John Miln of Leny Callander
Who is probably not even a MacGregor. Then. if your John is the Coilantogle John baptised 1758, there is another set;
20/05/1753 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Duncan Cullintogle Callander
01/11/1758 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran John Cullintogle Callander
13/04/1760 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Margaret Cullintogle Callander
And then a third set;
08/03/1752 Donald McLeran [McGregor]/Mary McLeran Patrick Blairgarrie Callander
16/03/1756 Donald McGregor/Mary McLeran Janet Milntown Callander
30/09/1762 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren John Milntown Callander
05/01/1766 Donald McGregor/Mary McLaren Daniel Miltown Callander
But I have to say, given the gaps in the dates, and the proximity of the locations, the two families above still look like the same family to me.
The second reason why I'm interested in your connection of John to Coilantogle is that by my calculation there were two other families of MacGregors living there for several generations. Both families used the alias of Drummond, after James Drummond, the 3rd Duke of Perth, who owned the estate until his death and the land seizures following the Jacobite rising of 1745. I think both families married women from my family tree, hence my interest. My family is the MacGregor branch of Dougal Ciar, or Glengyle, and they had a habit of marrying their cousins. So, the fact that the two families lived at the same location, and used the same alias, suggests they were brothers, or cousins. And the fact that they appear to have both married into the Glengyle family hints that they might also be from that family. But the only thing that connects them to your family above is the location. Although, they could have been siblings, or cousins.
I've already mentioned the McComas family, who lived near by, and may have been Glengyles. There was also a large family who used the alias Lyon, and lived at Blargarry. They also married into my family, but there is no obvious link to the family of Donald and Mary of Coilantogle.
I can give you more information about the MacGregors/Drummonds of Coilantogle if you think they might be linked, or even the McComas and Lyons, but I don't want to swamp you with data if there is no firm connection.
In the mean time, you may be interested in the Reports on the Annexed Estates, which details the confiscated lands and the lives of the people following the uprising. Coilantogle is in the Barony of Strathgartney.
https://www.chuckspeed.com/balquhidder/history/reports_annexed_estates.htm#_Toc189038803
John.
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Hi John
The Donald/Mary and son John McGrigor is certainly a puzzle, have just been looking on Scotland's People website and found two lots of od Donald and Mary with son John but several years apart, both in Parish of Callander, i have some credits left so will buy the 2 copies of birth certificates to see what other info shows up on them to figure out which one is mine or if they are same parents and child but different birth dates. Will let you know, it is a pity I can't upload them here. Anyways, this is the 2 which strangely is one after the other in the list of John MCGrigors born between 1758 and 1763. I'll look closer at the info you have given me above and have a read of the link as well. Thanks.
MCGRIGOR
JOHN
DONALD MCGRIGOR/MARY MCLAREN FR170 (FR170)
M
30/09/1762
336/
10 164
Callander
. (6 credits)
MCGRIGOR
JOHN
DONALD MCGRIGOR/MARY MCLERAN FR153 (FR153)
M
01/11/1758
336/
10 147
Callander
Edit: Not much more info on the birth certificates than what is written above though spelling of McLaren and McLeran is different, so weird. I need to have another look at the copies that Myra compiled together that she got from the archivist.
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Hi,
The actual registers are copyrighted, so you can’t upload them. But the two Johns should be the same as the transcripts I gave you above. One from Coilantogle, the other Milntown, which are next to each other. Why are you looking in Callander when the family lived in Caputh? Do you have something which says they moved from Callander?
John.
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Yes, I think the parish registers record the reading of banns, not the actual wedding, which is why there are sometimes two entries, with slightly different dates, when the bride and groom attend different churches.
Actually, it's when the bride and groom lived in two different parishes, and the banns had to be proclaimed in both.
Banns had to be proclaimed in the parish kirk, so even if both of them attended other kirks of the same denomination in the same parish it made no difference - the banns still had to be called in the parish kirk.
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Hi Elaine,
Below is the tree of the other MacGregor family I mentioned before, the one which also lived at Coilantogle. It's based on my guesses about how the information in the Parish Registers fits together, so it may not be accurate, and I may have conflated different families.
I don't know how relevant this is to you, as I don't know how your Donald's family fits into this tree. The fact that Donald and the families below appear to have all been living together at Coilantogle for around a decade suggests they may have been related. However, Donald didn't use the Drummond alias, and his apparent age, (calculated from the date range of his children), doesn't fit as a brother, or as a son. Maybe he was a cousin.
I'm fairly sure Patrick Drummond was related to Alexander Drummond of Coilantogle. Patrick's family start out at Luirgeann, or Braeleny, which looks to be a remote place, at the head of a glen which runs north of Callander. Its remoteness suggests to me that Malcolm and Alexander are Patrick's brothers, and Alexander is the same person who lived at Coilantogle. The three apparent brothers all name their first son John, who may have been their father.
As I mentioned before, both Patrick's and Alexander's families married women who I'm confident are from the Glengyle branch of the MacGregor tree. Margaret McAlpine of Inverlochlaraigmore was most likely my ancestor's sister. Mary Drummond of Bailefuil's maternal great grandfather was most likely Rob Roy MacGregor. Coincidentally, I think she's also descended from two people you mentioned at the start of the thread; her paternal grandfather was probably Patrick Stirling, or Cotter, and her other maternal great grandfather was probably Iain Og McGregor of Glencarnoch. I don't know if that is a connection to your Donald. I also think Christian McComas could have been from the Glengyle family, and I suspect Margaret Graham and Janet Graham were too, as I think they were the only ones to use the Graham alias. Another source, (John Ward), says a granddaughter married another Glengyle, Gregor MacGregor of Alltan nam Breac. As I said before, the significance of all this is that the Glengyles often married their cousins. So, this hints that the tree below is a branch of the Glengyle tree.
John.
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|
|--Malcolm MacGregor alias Drummond of Lurgvean Callander
| 1719 Married Margaret MacGregor alias Graham of Buchanan Parish
| |--1721 Catharine Lurgvean Callander
| |--1723 John Lurgvuie Callander
| |--1726 Duncan Lurgvuy Callander
| |--1731 Alexander Callander
| '--1734 Marrian Callander
|--Patrick MacGregor alias Drummond of Braelenny Callander
| 1728 Married Nansy/Agnes/Anne McArthur of Wester Brackland Callander
| |--1729 Janet Brea of Leny Callander
| |--1731 John Brackland Callander
| | John MacGregor alias Drummond of Callander
| | 1755 Married Anne Wood of Port of Mentieth
| | Both buried Kincardine Norrieston graveyard: 115-Alexr MacGregor imo
| | w Janet 23.9.1798 33, fa John McGregor 11.12.1809 79, mo Ann Wood 11.4.1810 80
| | |--1756 Patrick Kirktown of Callander
| | | John Ward says this is the husband of Margaret Strang of the
| | | Milton of Aberfoyle/Drumlane Aberfoyle, and their daur
| | | Margaret was the wife of Gregor, Margaret McAlpine's [below]
| | | niece's [Joanna] son, but I don't know how accurate that is.
| | |--1757 Margaret Kirktown of Callander
| | |--1760 Anne Kirktown of Callander
| | |--1763 James Culintogle Callander
| | |--1764 James Cuilantogil Callander
| | |--1766 John Culintogle Callander
| | | Most likely John of Callander who married Mary of Bailefuil, Balquhidder.
| | | Mary most likely daur of Duncan alias Drummond and Catharine, b. 1763 Easter
| | | Ruscachan, Balquhidder.
| | | Blair Drummond Moss Census abt. 1814, Kirk Lane No 8;
| | | Present Possessor Duncan McGregor 27 yrs
| | | Mary McGregor his mother 50
| | | Children May his sister 23
| | | Peter 11
| | | Nancy 17
| | | Gregor 15
| | | Katherine 25
| | | Persons deceased John 44yrs 1810 Consumption
| | | Years Settled on the Moss 12 years
| | | 1783 John of Callander married Mary of Bailefuil
| | | |--1783 Duncan Glenguile Callander
| | | |--1785 Catherine Glenguile Callander
| | | |--1787 Mary Breanchuilt Callander
| | | |--1788 Peter Banchore Callander
| | | |--1791 Anne Inverardoran Killin
| | | |--1793 Anne Invrardoran Killin
| | | '--1797 Gregor Inverardoran Killin
| | |--1769 Susanna Cuilintogle Callander
| | '--1772 Alexander Culntogil Callander
| | Erected monument to wife Janet 23.9.1798 33 and parents,
| | Kincardine Norrieston graveyard.
| |--1733 Margaret Callander
| |--1736 Donald Wester Brackland Callander
| |--1738 James Lurgvuy Callander
| |--1740 Janet Lurg Callander
| |--1742 Patrick Cullintogle Callander
| |--1745 Anne Kirktown of Callander
| '--1748 Patrick Kirktown of Callander
'--Alexander MacGregor alias Drummond of Callander
1731 Married Janet MacGregor alias Graham of Callander
|--1732 Mary Lurgvuie Callander
|--1734 John Braeleny Callander
| 1774 Married Christian MacKomas of Callander. Most likely daur of John MacGregor
| | alias McComas and Mary Miller b. 1749 Duncraggan Callander.
| |--1775 Janet Cullintogle Callander
| |--1779 Catharine Portnellan Callander
| '--1781 Alexander Portnellan Callander
|--1736 Duncan Callander
|--1739 Janet Lurg Callander
1741 Married Christian Cameron of Callander
|--1742 Grigor Cullintogle Callander
| 1768 Married Margaret MacGregor alias McAlpine of Balquhidder
| | Most likely daur of Duncan alias Murray and Margaret McLaren b. 1748 Easter
| | Innernenty Balquhidder. Margaret and her siblings lived at Inverlochlaraigmore
| | and appear to be the only people to use the McAlpine alias in the area. Her niece
| | Joanna gave birth to Gregor 1783 at Tombea.
| |--1768 Patrick Coillbea Callander
| |--1772 Christian Culintogil Callander
| |--1773 John Cullintogle Callander
| |--1775 Robert Easter Tombea Callander
| |--1777 Alexander Tombea Callander
| |--1778 Catharine Tombea Callander
| |--1780 Robert Culintogle/Tombea Callander
| |--1781 Donald Tombea Callander
| |--1783 Janet Tombea Callander
| '--1789 Gregor/Jane Gregor Tombea Callander. Jane a mistake, or a common law wife?
1745 Appears to have common law marriage with Christian McLeran
|--1745 Archibald Cuilintogle Callander
|--1748 Janet Cullintogle Callander
|--1752 Christian Cullintogle Callander
1755 Married Christian McLeran of Callander
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Hui John
Thanks for all this information, I am away to Inverness for 4 days as my son is getting married there on Saturday, in the McGregor tartan. I will have a much better look at it all either during the 4 days or when I return home.
You asked earlier about Charles and him being born in Caputh, the 1861 census had this information on him, Myra had written in the Charles McGregor book that in his death certificate it had him born in Caputh but she had not been able to find his birth certificate, I couldn't either so maybe his birth certificate was an alias name? Charles McGregor certainly travelled distances and he and his family lived in Cowford Cottage, this was owned by the Duke of Murray, Charles boss at Blair Atholl Castle. More than likely his father John who was born in Cullintogle may have travelled too, Scots were hardy bunch and distances and hard terrain were no problem, especially to the Proscribed and hunted McGregors. John McGregor and Mary Young are a mystery, not a lot of details on them though they are mentioned on Charles McGregor's death certificate. In the 1851 Census the details were more or less same, just 10 years younger at 63 and profession was - Farmerby Wood Forester
1861 Scotland Census
View Record
Name - Charles Macgregor
Age - 73 Estimated
Birth Year - abt 1788
Relationship - Head
Gender - Male
Where born - Caputh, Perthshire
Registration Number - 330Registration district - Auchtergaven Civil parish
AuchtergavenCounty - Perthshire
Address - Cowford Cottage
Occupation - Retired
Land Stewart
ED6
Household schedule number16
Line11RollCSSCT1861_47
Household Members
NameAge
Name
Charles Macgregor
Age
73
Name
Margaret Macgregor
Age
25
Name
Hellen Stewart
Age
10
Name
Mary I Willis
Age
4 Mo
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Does anybody have any full paper trail or list of document that links Patrick Drummond to the McGregors or at least demonstrates and explains this?
He is my 7x ggfather.
There is a lot of misinformation about ancestry regarding my 4x ggfather Duncan Drummond saying his father was Duncan McGregor, I never found any proof of this, having said that I have traced his lineage through Scotland people records and got up to Patrick Drummond and Ann McArthur and, having found this thread it does indeed look like the McGregor link is correct but people on ancestry have the link incorrect. :)
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Hi,
Patrick calls himself McGregor in the Callander parish register, which is on Scotland's People. I must admit, I have mostly relied on the register transcript from Clan Gregor, which I have found to be very accurate. However, I do have a copy of this entry;
21/03/1731 PATRICK DRUMMOND/JANET MCARTHUR JOHN 336/10 65 Callander
Which says;
Patrick Drummond alias McGregor and Janet Mcarthur
I bought it to check it said Janet and not Nansy/Agnes/Anne. It does, but the location suggests it is the same couple.
This is the transcript from Clan Gregor;
1728 Patrick + Nansy McKertr [Braelenny/Wester Brackland] [Callander]
1729 Patrick/Agnis MckArthur Janet Brea of Leny Callander
1731 Patrick Drummond alias McGregor/Janet McArthur John Bracklain Callander
1736 Patrick Drummond/Agnes McArthur Donald Wester Brackland Callander
1738 Patrick Drummond alias McGregor /Anne McArthur James Lurgvuy Callander
1740 Patrick/Agnes McArthur Janet Lurg Callander
1742 Patrick Drummond alias McGregor /Anne McArthur Patrick Cullintogle Callander
1745 Patrick Drummond alias McGregor/Anne McArthur Anne Kirktown of Callander Callander
1748 Patrick Drummond alias McGregor/Anne McArthur Patrick Kirktown Callander
There is also this, which is on Scotland's People, but not in the transcript;
08/07/1733 PATRICK DRUMMOND/ANNA MCARTHUR MARGARET 336/10 72 Callander
I've not bought it, so I don't know if it's related or not.
So, this Patrick was a McGregor who used the alias Drummond, and he used both in the register. The only child I think I know about is John baptised 1731. I think this is his grave;
Kincardine Norrieston graveyard: 115-Alexr MacGregor imo w Janet 23.9.1798 33, fa John McGregor 11.12.1809 79, mo Ann Wood 11.4.1810 80
This John and Ann lived at Coilantogle, like Patrick, which may be a coincidence, but I think he was probably Patrick's son, given the location, the dates, and the names of John's children. I think most of his sons lived in New York state. Alexander, mentioned on their grave, was a banker in Liverpool and Manchester. There is a History of Saratoga County, 1878, which details the family, and links it to John and Ann Wood. The graves of the New York family are also on Find a Grave, and they are on the New York census. So, most of their sons are well documented, and I can post more details and links if you want. The exception is John and Ann Wood's son Patrick, who I think married Margaret Strang, lived in Aberfoyle, and had a son John who was a foxhunter. But this is my speculation, based on the parish registers, and is not as definitive proof as the contemporary history written about his brothers.
On the internet the parents of John, husband of Ann Wood, are given as;
15/02/1730 GEORGE DRUMMOND/MARGT. MCFARLANE JOHN Kincardine
This could be true, and I can post the whole of George's family, but as far as I can tell this family are true Drummonds, not McGregors. The only link appears to be the date, and the fact John sometimes used a Drummond alias. John and Ann Wood definitely lived at Coilantogle, but moved to Thornhill after 1772. The 1878 Saratoga history says they live in Thornhill, and they are buried there. I suspect this is why they have been linked to a Kincardine Drummond family by researchers, but I think the link to Patrick McGregor of Coilantogle is far more likely.
What does Ancestry say about this family, and do you want me to post more information about what I have?
John.
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Hi,
I've noticed the tree above is from 2019, and was before I found the New York information which demonstrated I was wrong for the children of John and Ann Wood. So, my reply yesterday doesn't match the old tree. This is my correction;
| |--1731 John Brackland Callander
| | John MacGregor alias Drummond of Callander
| | 1755 Married Anne Wood of Port of Mentieth
| | Both buried Kincardine Norrieston graveyard: 115-Alexr MacGregor imo
| | w Janet 23.9.1798 33, fa John McGregor 11.12.1809 79, mo Ann Wood 11.4.1810 80
| | |--1756 Patrick Kirktown of Callander
| | | John Ward says this is the husband of Margaret Strang of the
| | | Milton of Aberfoyle/Drumlane Aberfoyle, and their daur
| | | Margaret was the wife of Gregor, Margaret McAlpine's [below]
| | | niece's [Joanna] son, but I don't know how accurate that is.
| | |--1757 Margaret Kirktown of Callander
| | | Possibly went to US with her brothers, (below).
| | | Margaret McCrieger Sprott (1757-1829) married William Sprott (1766-1844)
| | | |--1788 James Sprott (d. 1850) married Anna (1799-1876)
| | | | This is most likely Mary Ann McGregor, daughter of James and Elisabeth
| | | | Louisa Cameron, (below), as their son James, and grandaughter Anna,
| | | | lived with James's son Duncan and are described as nephew and grandniece.
| | | | So, James Sprott and Anna were probably cousins.
| | | | |--1823 Jane E Sprott
| | | | |--1827 James N Sprott married Caroline
| | | | | '--1861 Anna L Sprott
| | | | |--1829 George Sprott
| | | | '--1832 Charlotte Sprott
| | | |--1793 Margaret Sprott Schuylerville, Saratoga (d. 1843)
| | | |--1795 John Sprott Schuylerville, Saratoga
| | | '--1797 Alexander Sprott Schuylerville, Saratoga
| | |--1760 Anne Kirktown of Callander
| | |--1763 James Culintogle Callander
| | |--1764 James Cuilantogil Callander
| | |--1760 Anne Kirktown of Callander
| | |--1761 William (not in OPR, d. 1834). Went to US 1781/2, 1787 settled in Wilton
| | | married Charlotte Cameron (1773-1839)
| | | |--1793 Charlotte Schuylerville, Saratoga
| | | |--1795 Nancy Schuylerville, Saratoga
| | | |--1797 John Schuylerville, Saratoga (d. 1879) married Charlotte
| | | | Beekman (1798-1874)
| | | | '--1842 Charles A McGregor (d. 1863)
| | | |--1798 William Schuylerville, Saratoga (d. 1863) married Maria
| | | | Beekman (1802-1853)
| | | | '--1836 Beckman McGregor
| | | |--James
| | | |--1811 Alexander (d. 1849)
| | | '--Elizabeth
| | |--1763 James Culintogle Callander
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| | |--1764 James Cuilantogil Callander. Went to US 1781/2, 1787 settled in Wilton
| | | married 1794 Elisabeth Louisa Cameron (Lueza/Luella) Schuylerville,
| | | Saratoga (1776-1834).
| | | |--1794 Elisabeth Schuylerville, Saratoga
| | | |--1796 Margaret Schuylerville, Saratoga
| | | |--1798 John Schuylerville, Saratoga
| | | |--James
| | | |--William
| | | |--Alexander, founder of MacGregor's Landing, Iowa, in 1847, which today is
| | | | called McGregor, Iowa.
| | | |--Peter
| | | |--1808 Duncan McGregor b. 1808 (d. 1895) married Harriet G. Cornell
| | | | '--1841 John
| | | |--Gregor
| | | |--Mary Ann, probably wife of cousin James Sprott, (above), (1799-1876)
| | | '--1818 Helen McGregor (d. 1825)
| | |--1766 John Culintogle Callander. Went to US 1781/2, lived in New York city.
| | |--1769 Susanna Cuilintogle Callander
| | '--1772 Alexander Culntogil Callander. Went to US 1781/2, returned to UK.
| | Erected monument to wife Janet 23.9.1798 33 and parents,
| | Kincardine Norrieston graveyard.
| | Possibly married [2] 1803 Ellen Morton, Plumbley, Lower Peover, Chester,
| | but I don't think so, as age doesn't match.
| | 1806 married in Faversham, Kent, widow Helen Finlay (nee Thomson)
| | Marriage Notice, The Scots Magazine, Edinburgh.
| | (1774 or 8-1855). Daughter of George Thomson of Glasgow, and possibly of
| | Elizabeth Allan, if born 1778.
| | Alexander agent for the Bank of England, Manchester, 1826. Died 1828 Liverpool.
| | Helen's children from her first marriage;
| | |--1797 James Finlay
| | |--1798 ? Finlay
| | |--1799 George Finlay (d. 1875) Scottish historian.
| | '--1801 Elizabeth Mary Finlay
| | Helen's children from her second marriage;
| | |--1806 Alexander, Liverpool (d. 1842)
| | |--1808 James, Liverpool
| | |--1810 William, Liverpool (d. 1842)
| | |--1812 Walter Fergus, Liverpool (d. 1863)
| | |--1817 Elizabeth Jane, Liverpool
| | '--1819 Helen, Liverpool
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Is that a better match to the Ancestory information? As I mentioned in the original post, my interest is in the other branch of the Coilantogle McGregor family, specifically Margaret McAlpine McGregor, and her niece Joanna McAlpine McGregor. Margaret had a cousin, (I think a cousin), Robert of Ardmacmuin. His parents are buried by John and Ann Wood in Thornhill, and he is probably the Robert who lived by their sons in Saratoga. So, it does all appear to be connected, or maybe I'm seeing patterns which are just coincidences.
John.
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Hi John thanks for your reply, when you say transcript, a transcript of what exactly, is this a transcript of a marriage or birth for example?
What is a transcript from clan Gregor, is this an official record as with ScotlandsPeople?
What I am really trying to achieve is documenting my family tree correctly - I am trying to document and demonstrate clearly through official records that my nans nan was McGregor by blood and a Drummond by name only.
My ancestor on ancestry is called Duncan Drummond Alias McGregor - I have checked on Scotland people and it does look like on record he is Duncan Drummond although I have never brought credits to actually view the records in full which may at some point be worded something such as alias McGregor.
Thanks
Harry
It is all very intriguing - I really thought the McGregor theory was a dead end as I never found any proof and everybody who had my ancestor in there tree as McGregor could not explain or prove the McGregor bit as they has copied someone else’s tree, who has also copied someone else’s tree and so forth.
I always wondered that at some point somebody must of had some information that suggested the McGregor theory and put it on ancestry.
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What is a transcript from clan Gregor, is this an official record as with ScotlandsPeople?
No. Someone has transcribed the information from the official record, whether baptism or banns, and put that on the Clan Gregor site.
My ancestor on ancestry is called Duncan Drummond Alias McGregor - I have checked on Scotland people and it does look like on record he is Duncan Drummond although I have never brought credits to actually view the records in full which may at some point be worded something such as alias McGregor.
I think you have just answered your own question, in part at least; you have to look at the available original records.
Bear in mind that for a time Clan Gregor was proscribed, and many MacGregors adopted aliases to avoid being arrested. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Gregor
An Act of the Scottish Parliament from 1617 stated (translated into modern English): It was ordained that the name of MacGregor should be abolished and that the whole persons of that name should renounce their name and take some other name and that they nor none of their name and that they nor none of their posterity should call themselves Gregor or MacGregor under pain of death ... that any person or persons of the said clan who has already renounced their names or hereafter shall renounce their names or if any of their children or posterity shall at any time hereafter assume or take to themselves the name of Gregor or MacGregor ... that every such person or persons assuming or taking to themselves the said name ... shall incur the pain of death which pain shall be executed upon them without favour.
I always wondered that at some point somebody must of had some information that suggested the McGregor theory and put it on ancestry.
You've found the main problem with online trees - they get copied and re-copied and unless you can track down the first one from which all the rest are copied, you risk propagating an error.
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Hi Harry,
As Forfarian mentioned, the Clan Gregor Society transcribed the parish registers for Western Perthshire and put it on their website. I've checked, and unfortunately it's not on their new website. It only included McGregor families, but did include McGregor families using an alias, and some kirk session notes. I mentioned it because it was my main source for Patrick's family, and there are sometimes small differences between it and the Scotland's People's index. Although, one big difference, as you've found, is that the index often uses just the alias name, and doesn't mention the McGregor part, which is the case with Patrick.
The name proscription was lifted in 1774, and most people went back to using McGregor. Some older people kept their alias, but their children usually didn't. I know of one family in Argyle that kept their alias name, but usually if a family isn't using McGregor after 1774, then they probably weren't McGregors.
Who was your Duncan Drummond alias McGregor ancestor? Did he live by Callander? If so, I can check the transcript and the pages of the registers I've bought from Scotland's People to see if I have him. My dad's family are from Callander and Balquhidder, so I've collected information about the area from building my own tree.
John.
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Hi John my Duncan Was named Duncan Drummond born 1776, his father also being named Duncan Drummond from Comrie, having traced his ancestry through Scotland people I reached Patrick Drummond and Anne MacArthur.
I will recap and let you know the exact line as I can’t remember It to hand - I just know I got to Patrick Drummond and Anne MacArthur and couldn’t get past them, I then googled and found this forum - I was of course suprised to see the McGregor link that I had very recently dismissed.
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Hopefully this helps - I found this on scotlands people. I think I searched for Patrick drummond and only record I could find from marriage to a Ann was Anne MacArthur, hope this helps. Scottish family history is absolutely new to me having only found out I had some Scottish ancestry quite recently, it is very complex ;D
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Hi Harry,
No. I don't have that page, or the pages for his brothers; James (1744), and John (1748). Looking at the index there appears to be a gap in the marriage banns for Comrie between 1710 and 1747. In fact, I think there are a lot of gaps in the registers going back that far. From what I've seen it appears to be mainly due to water damage, and the grave stones are often blank because the inscriptions have been washed away. It's a wet place.
Is the other Duncan you mentioned the son of Duncan Drummond and Janet King, christened Comrie 1778? If so, I do have a bit of information about that family.
John.
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Hi John I believe it goes as follows
Patrick Drummond and Anne (presumably McArthur)
Son - Duncan Drummond and Katherine Mailor
Son - Duncan Drummond and Ann Key
Son - William Drummond born in London
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Hi all
The reason the records for Comrie are missing is due to the rebellion of early 18th centuary when the highlanders marched south Comrie was sacked and also when the government forces marched north they got the rest the beadles house where the records were kept was burnt and the records lost. Later the minister and I can't remember when went door to door to try and build back the records I found 3 generations of my ancestors on one page of a note book on microfiche in the A K Bell library in perth
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Just a quick update on the whole Drummond McGregor scenario for my own family.
My ancestry DNA results have came back.
On searching for DNA Matches with people who had the surname Drummond in their tree I had just over 20 results…..
On searching for DNA Matches with people who had the surname McGregor in their tree I didn’t get the final number but stopped counting at 121 ….
Think the McGregor alias holds true (for my Drummonds anyway)
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Hi John I believe it goes as follows
Patrick Drummond and Anne (presumably McArthur)
Son - Duncan Drummond and Katherine Mailor
Son - Duncan Drummond and Ann Key
Son - William Drummond born in London
Reply #33 "Patrick Drummond and Anne (presumably McArthur)" which was an image of the index, the maiden name of Anne is clearly Drummond
Annie
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I know this is quite an old thread, but I note that there's mention of the McComas/McGregor from The area around Brig o Turk. As there seem to be a fir mix of McGregor families there, I wondered if anyone has done any sort of deep research on them. As far back as I've been able to work out, I've got to my 4x Great grandfather, Donald McComas/McGregor m. Janet Ferguson 29th November 1744 in Callander. Any help appreciated!
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Hi,
I think this could be the next generation back;
1719 Thomas McComish/Marrion McKnee Doanld Duncraggan Callander [Donald]
1726 Thomas McHomish/Marion McNie Thomas Duncraggan Callander
1728 Thomas McComash/Marion Nicknie Janet Duncraggan Callander
This is probably the same Thomas McComas of Duncraggan who sponsored Dougal in 1735, the illegitimate son of John Murray McGregor of Ardmacmuin and Janet Ferguson of Ardcheanochroehan. It could also be the same Thomas McComas who married Mary McLeran in 1743.
John.
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Thanks John!