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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: battista on Tuesday 22 May 18 12:06 BST (UK)

Title: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Tuesday 22 May 18 12:06 BST (UK)
I've hit a brick wall, I'm trying to find my 3rd Great Grandfather Giovanni Battista's death index (eventually to order the certificate).

Some general information about him:

Given name(s): Giovanni
Surname: Battista
Birthdate: 19 May 1847
Birthplace: Rocca d'Arce, Frosinone, Lazio, Italy
Alternative Birthplace: Cassino, Frosinone, Lazio, Italy
Occupation: Tailor/Ice Cream Vendor/Street Organ Proprietor
Estimated date of death: 1901 - 1910
Name of spouse at death (second): Anastatia Finley Whalan (Battista)
First spouse: Elizabeth Ellen Lawson (mother of all his children)

Siblings: Vincenzo Battista & Antonio Battista (Vincenzo was living with Giovanni in 1881 census)
Children to Elizabeth Ellen Lawson (biological): Pasqualino, Georgina, Orselina, Elizabeth Ann, Antonio, John George, Vincent C, William Armstrong & James
Children to Anastatia Whalan (biological): Henry Leo
 
England Census Info

Place of residence 1901: Tynemouth, Northumberland, England
Place of residence 1891: North Shields, Northumberland, England
Place of residence 1881: Newcastle on Tyne All Sts, Northumberland, England

Other Info

Two of his children's marriage entries list his name as "John Battista" (Giovanni is John in Italian), one marriage in 1910 states he is deceased.

Since he is alive in the 1901 census, but listed as deceased in his child's marriage in 1910 and does not appear in the 1911 census, he probably died between 1901 and 1910. Although, I have not limited my search to just those date ranges. Here is my 2nd Great Grandfather's marriage from 1910, listing his father as deceased: https://i.imgur.com/Mwq6o2t.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/Mwq6o2t.jpg)

I can not find him in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index (Ancestry, FreeBMD and GRO). I was not able to find his (second) wife in any future censuses. However, I did find her death index in 1934.

What I have searched:

I've also requested a manual search from 1900 - 1911 from the North Tyneside Registrars (who are responsible for record keeping in the regions Giovanni lived in, in his last two censuses). They were not able to find his death but did find his first wife's death in 1900 (Elizabeth); he was listed as the spouse and reporter.

Current leads I'm looking into:

This thread is continued below, in the next post.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Tuesday 22 May 18 12:08 BST (UK)
Ran out of characters, some further info...

I will be requesting manual searches of records from Newcastle, Northumberland and Sunderland.

FreeBMD and GRO index searches for only the surname Battista and phonetic variations (no given names entered) from 1900 - 1922 throughout England result in no names or death ages that are close. I've found his children's death indexes, even his brothers who died in 1900 and 1936. I'm running out of ideas; any help would be much appreciated.
 
Not sure if this link is viewable:
Ancestry family profile: https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/150930472/person/282002756595/facts

1911 census, family locations:

Giovanni Battista, 64 - Missing
Wife: Anastatia Battista, 48 (Whalan) - Missing (remarried?)

Biological children (to Elizabeth E. Lawson)
Son: Pasqualino Battista, 32 - Navy (not present in 1911 census, but entries in 1911 for UK Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services)
Daughter: Georgina Battista (Birmingham), 29 - Staying with sister Orselina in Tynemouth.
Daughter: Orselina Battista (Spence), 26 - Tynemouth, head of house.
Daughter: Elizabeth Ann Battista, 25 - Missing (married or dead?)
Son: Antonio Battista, 22 - 3 Back Barrington Street Monkwearmonth Sunderland, head of house.
John George Battista, 20 - Tynemouth, married. Not present in 1911 census. Has a 1911 marriage index.
Vincent C Battista, 16 - 11 Alexandra St Victoria Garesfield Nr Rowlands Gill, boarder, coal miner.
William Armstrong Battista, 13 - Sculcoates, Yorkshire-East Riding, inmate.
James Battista, 11 - Tynemouth, Northumberland, inmate.

(Step-children from marriage to Anastatia Whalan)
Step-daughter: Maria Alicia Whalan, 25 - Missing (married or dead?)
Step-daughter - Eleonore Whalan, 22 - Missing (married or dead?)
Step-daughter - Anastasia Whalan, 19 - Missing (there is a potential marriage record in 1916)
Step-son - Michael Whalan - dead

All children have been separated. Anastatia Battista cannot be found in the 1911 census, although there does appear to be electoral records of her from 1913 onwards (under Anastatia Whalan). I'm not sure if this is her, I suspect this is actually her daughter of the same name. She reappears in 1934 for a death index as Anastatia Battista (age and location seem correct).

The youngest two of Giovanni's children are "inmates" at Humber Industrial School Ship.

My other posts to genealogical communities:
r/Genealogy - https://www.reddit.com/r/Genealogy/comments/8jgvb2/missing_death_index_and_certificate_england/

British Genealogy - https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/92019-Missing-death-index-and-certificate
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jebber on Tuesday 22 May 18 12:38 BST (UK)
It’s possible he could have died over the boarder in Scotland?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Tuesday 22 May 18 12:41 BST (UK)
It’s possible he could have died over the boarder in Scotland?

Ah yes, good point. I forgot to mention, checked Scotlandspeople website for Battista's only thing I found was this: https://i.imgur.com/zgZJeJw.png No death, marriage or birth. Used their fuzzy and phonetic searches as well.

EDIT: I haven't purchased the census record, not sure if it's worth looking into?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jebber on Tuesday 22 May 18 12:46 BST (UK)
I’m afraid  that was the only suggestion I could come up with, other than could he have taken a trip to Italy and died there.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Tuesday 22 May 18 13:04 BST (UK)
I’m afraid  that was the only suggestion I could come up with, other than could he have taken a trip to Italy and died there.

Hmm, ok. Thanks for the suggestion anyway, might end up ordering that census if I get desperate.

If he did die in Italy, I hope he died in his commune... otherwise I don't think I'll ever find the certificate.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: alpinecottage on Tuesday 22 May 18 14:50 BST (UK)
"Anastatia Battista cannot be found in the 1911 census, although there does appear to be electoral records of her from 1913 onwards (under Anastatia Whalan). I'm not sure if this is her, I suspect this is actually her daughter of the same name. She reappears in 1934 for a death index as Anastatia Battista (age and location seem correct)."

Do you mean voting records?  Women didn't get the vote until 1918 and then it was only for women over 30 years of age.
Have you looked in the Newspaper Archive to see if there were any obituaries or marriage announcements or other articles for the family?  I have found the Newcastle newspapers were particularly fond of printing local news .
Also, do you know where his widow Anastatia was buried after her death in 1934 - maybe it was with her husband.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 22 May 18 15:36 BST (UK)
When I am next at North Shields library I will see if they have any information.  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Tuesday 22 May 18 15:36 BST (UK)
Do you mean voting records?  Women didn't get the vote until 1918 and then it was only for women over 30 years of age.
Although women rate payers were allowed to vote in local (but not parliamentary) elections from about the 1870s. So there are some on the rolls for this purpose.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Tuesday 22 May 18 15:59 BST (UK)
Per the linked posts, Anastasia Whalen/Whelan is on the Newcastle voting records at various addresses from 1903.  No husband is listed, and the return to her maiden surname suggests they may have separated.

In later years Mary Alice Whelan is with her, as is John Slavin.   A Mary Alice Whelan died in Newcastle in 1952 aged 66, which would fit with her daughter Maria Alicia.   

A John Slavin & Anastatia Whelan married in 1916, and there is a death in 1922 for an Anastasia Slavin aged 28, so likely the daughter as there are two Slavin/Whelan births, one in 1916 and one in 1919.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 22 May 18 16:03 BST (UK)
When I am next at North Shields library I will see if they have any information.  :)

Battista, the files at North Shields library can be a treasure trove so it’s possible RTL might find some nuggets of information for you there.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 22 May 18 16:54 BST (UK)

My other posts to genealogical communities:
r/Genealogy - https://www.reddit.com/r/Genealogy/comments/8jgvb2/missing_death_index_and_certificate_england/

British Genealogy - https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/92019-Missing-death-index-and-certificate

To anyone looking at this Rootschat thread, I'd strongly recommend that you also take a look at the other two threads that Battista has quoted above, because there is a lot of information and suggestions on them. It would be a shame to duplicate information on here  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Annette7 on Tuesday 22 May 18 19:40 BST (UK)
Giovanni and Anastasia did have one child together - Henry Leo Battista mmn Finley birth Sept.1901 Tynemouth, his death in Sept.1902.

Annette
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 00:43 BST (UK)
"Anastatia Battista cannot be found in the 1911 census, although there does appear to be electoral records of her from 1913 onwards (under Anastatia Whalan). I'm not sure if this is her, I suspect this is actually her daughter of the same name. She reappears in 1934 for a death index as Anastatia Battista (age and location seem correct)."

Do you mean voting records?  Women didn't get the vote until 1918 and then it was only for women over 30 years of age.
Have you looked in the Newspaper Archive to see if there were any obituaries or marriage announcements or other articles for the family?  I have found the Newcastle newspapers were particularly fond of printing local news .
Also, do you know where his widow Anastatia was buried after her death in 1934 - maybe it was with her husband.

She's in the "Newcastle upon Tyne, England, Electoral Registers, 1741-1974", I guess @Silverhawk answers why that is the case.

Someone kindly searched on https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ for me, as they have a subscription. Couldn't find anything to do with Giovanni Battista or Anastatia Battista (Whalan), but did find a lot on their children. Nothing relevant to Giovanni's death. I did a search with the free trial, couldn't find anything more, although I haven't used that site long enough to say I searched thoroughly. It's definitely an area I will be focusing on. Hopefully, I'll be able to avoid getting a lot of empty searches (I suspect my search parameters aren't very good).

A question I have an answer to :) I did find the burial place, "St. Dominic, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England", burial date was 20 Jul 1934, listed as an "Anastasia Battista Whelan". I wonder how I'd be able to find out if she was buried next to him? Contact the church?

He might also be buried next to or near his brothers Vincenzo and Antonio, or his first spouse Elizabeth. Although, I don't know where they are buried. Good points, I didn't think about Giovanni potentially being buried next to spouses/family.

When I am next at North Shields library I will see if they have any information.  :)

Battista, the files at North Shields library can be a treasure trove so it’s possible RTL might find some nuggets of information for you there.

Thanks @River Tyne Lass, that'd be much appreciated! :)

@JenB Any bit of information would be amazing.

Per the linked posts, Anastasia Whalen/Whelan is on the Newcastle voting records at various addresses from 1903.  No husband is listed, and the return to her maiden surname suggests they may have separated.

In later years Mary Alice Whelan is with her, as is John Slavin.   A Mary Alice Whelan died in Newcastle in 1952 aged 66, which would fit with her daughter Maria Alicia.   

A John Slavin & Anastatia Whelan married in 1916, and there is a death in 1922 for an Anastasia Slavin aged 28, so likely the daughter as there are two Slavin/Whelan births, one in 1916 and one in 1919.

So I think Anastasia Whalan (b. 1892) the daughter, married John Slavin (not the mother of the same name). There's a marriage index of them in 1916 and a 1922 death index of Anastasia Slavin (approximately the same age as the daughter, b. 1894).

I know Anastasia the mother, died in 1934 listed as "Anastasia Battista" in the death index, and "Anastasia Battista Whelan" in the burial records.

The "Newcastle upon Tyne, England, Electoral Registers, 1741-1974" are from 1903/4 - 1934/5. So if the daughter died in 1922, then the electoral records after that must be the mother. All the way up until the very last electoral record in 1935, she's living with John Slavin. Seems odd that the mother would still be staying with her son in law, after her daughter's death... Only one Anastasia Whelan appears on the electoral records for a year, not two.

Giovanni and Anastasia did have one child together - Henry Leo Battista mmn Finley birth Sept.1901 Tynemouth, his death in Sept.1902.

Annette

I'd seen his death index in 1902, I wondered whose child he was. That is new information, how did you verify Giovanni and Anastasia were the parents? I can't seem to find anything about that.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it through FamilySearch. Spelt Enricus Leo Battista, father Joanni Battista, mother Annae Finley Battista. First time I've seen that spelling variation.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 23 May 18 08:59 BST (UK)
Quote
A question I have an answer to :) I did find the burial place, "St. Dominic, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England", burial date was 20 Jul 1934, listed as an "Anastasia Battista Whelan". I wonder how I'd be able to find out if she was buried next to him? Contact the church?

The records for St Dominics are now held by Tyne & Wear Archives (see Roman Catholic registers on this link https://twarchives.org.uk/collection/user-guides-and-information )
I am uncertain if there is actually a burial ground at St Dominics. It is quite possible that the Funeral Mass was held at St Dominics, which is why she appears on their records, but that she is actually buried at one of the large municipal cemeteries in Newcastle.
Where did you actually find this record?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 09:11 BST (UK)
Give me a week or two and I will fit in a visit to the Newcastle library as soon as I can.  I will try to find out more for you such as a burial place and death notice for Anastasia.  If I can find plot section and grave number you will be able to contact the bereavement services with the information and check if any others are in the same grave. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 23 May 18 09:12 BST (UK)
Where did you actually find this record?

Answering my own question  ;D I see that it's on Family Search as a burial record.

However, searching the film number (1936946) on the Family Search catalogue I see that it is in fact listed as a death record from St Dominics, not a burial record.

So I'd now very strongly suggest that she is not buried there but in a municipal cemetery in Newcastle.

 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 11:03 BST (UK)
Give me a week or two and I will fit in a visit to the Newcastle library as soon as I can.  I will try to find out more for you such as a burial place and death notice for Anastasia.  If I can find plot section and grave number you will be able to contact the bereavement services with the information and check if any others are in the same grave. :)

You're amazing :) I didn't realise libraries carried that information.

Where did you actually find this record?

Answering my own question  ;D I see that it's on Family Search as a burial record.

However, searching the film number (1936946) on the Family Search catalogue I see that it is in fact listed as a death record from St Dominics, not a burial record.

So I'd now very strongly suggest that she is not buried there but in a municipal cemetery in Newcastle.

 

Ah ok, I see. I wonder how hard it is to track down which one?


As for Giovanni, would a death certificate be required for a burial? I'd imagine earlier on burials happened without one and eventually, documentation was required.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 11:11 BST (UK)
Hi Battista,

This is what I have been able to find at North Shields local studies for you:

Burial Record for Elizabeth G Battista.  (Freebmd shows her as Elizabeth E Battista age 12.  However, in the burial record the letter looks quite like a G for middle name although I could be incorrect and age is 42 not 12.)

Entry: 2283
Elizabeth (G?) Battista
Female
42 years
Bird Street
Wife of Frank Battista
Date of Burial: 17 Sept. 1900
Unconsecrated Ground:  looks like 7700 but there is a possibility it could be 7760.

Death notice of John G Battista in the Shields Daily News - Thursday November 30 1916
'BATTISTA.- Killed in action, on Nov. 5th 1916 aged 25 years, Private John G Battista, beloved brother of Lily Spence, 3 Norfolk Street, North Shields - His King and country called him, the call was not in vain, On Britains's roll of honour, you will find this hero's name.'

Shields Daily News - 9 December 1916
In this newspaper there is a photo (head and torso shot of him in uniform and cap); not a brilliant photo but you can make out his features.  You will be able to get a copy by writing to the library.
Under the photo his name is spelled as Batiste but has the correct spelling in write up:

'Pte J G Batista, Northumberland Fusiliers, of Double Entry, Church Street, killed in action November 5th.'

So perhaps Lily lived at 3 Norfolk Street and John's address was Church Street?

See links below on his memorials.  If you have more information on him on his life story/background I am sure the 'North East War Memorials Project' would appreciate hearing from you.  They do very good story write ups on a feature on their website called 'Every Name A Story.' :)

http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=6609

http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=9045

I will go to Newcastle library soon and see what I can find out on Anastasia.  I hope the above Battista information may be relevant to your research.

Best Wishes :)

Added: I forgot to add name of cemetery.  It is Preston Cemetery, North Shields.  Thanks Jen for letting me know if omission - what would I do on here without you to keep me right.  :) ;)

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 11:28 BST (UK)
Burial Record for Elizabeth G Battista.  (Freebmd shows her as Elizabeth E Battista age 12.  However, in the burial record the letter looks quite like a G for middle name although I could be incorrect and age is 42 not 12.)

Entry: 2283
Elizabeth (G?) Battista
Female
42 years
Bird Street
Wife of Frank Battista
Date of Burial: 17 Sept. 1900
Unconsecrated Ground:  looks like 7700 but there is a possibility it could be 7760.

Yea, the death index for "Elizabeth E Battista" is transcribed as 12, although I looked at the original record available on ancestry and it is in fact 42. I've reported that error on both Ancestry and FreeBMD.

Frank Battista huh, there's another version of his name I haven't seen before. This record looks correct, right age, matches the death index date range and the 1901 census for Giovanni lists him living at 9 Bird Street.

Amazing that you've found her, I didn't know the date of burial or where she was buried.

Unfortunately, I have no information on J G Batista as of yet, but I have contacted some distant relatives who might. Hopefully, they'll get back to me.

Thanks for all this info you've gathered RTL, all new to me :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 23 May 18 11:42 BST (UK)
Give me a week or two and I will fit in a visit to the Newcastle library as soon as I can.  I will try to find out more for you such as a burial place and death notice for Anastasia.  If I can find plot section and grave number you will be able to contact the bereavement services with the information and check if any others are in the same grave. :)

You're amazing :) I didn't realise libraries carried that information.

Newcastle City Library has an excellent Local Studies Department containing a wealth of information  :)


Where did you actually find this record?

Answering my own question  ;D I see that it's on Family Search as a burial record.

However, searching the film number (1936946) on the Family Search catalogue I see that it is in fact listed as a death record from St Dominics, not a burial record.

So I'd now very strongly suggest that she is not buried there but in a municipal cemetery in Newcastle.

 

Ah ok, I see. I wonder how hard it is to track down which one?


I suggest you wait until RTL has had time to go to Newcastle Library. As she said earlier, there might well be a death announcement in the Evening Chronicle which gives the place of burial.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 12:40 BST (UK)
Couldn't resist it - I am on a roll, so have cancelled something to come to Newcastle.  However, death notice for name you give turns out to be puzzling ???:

Evening Chronicle - Thursday 19 July, 1934

'Whelan.- 169, Portland Road, on the 17th inst., aged 72 years, Anastasia, beloved wife of the late Michael Whelan.  Cortege received at St Dominic's Church, Friday, 9.45 a.m.  Requiem Mass 10 a.m.  Interment All Saints 10.45 a.m.  Friends please accept this the only intimation.  On whose soul, sweet Jesus, have mercy.  R.I.P.'

Could husband have changed both names or did she remarry or is this another lady entirely? ???  Very puzzling!  Not sure if this might be a bit of a break through of your brick wall - I hope it is.  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Wednesday 23 May 18 12:50 BST (UK)
Potentially he was buried next to his first wife (Elizabeth), second wife (Anastasia) or perhaps one of his brothers Vincenzo or Antonio. Anastasia was buried in St. Dominic, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne. The others I don't know. Worth checking out.
Do you have Antonio's death? Only I've found a reference to an "Anthony" Battista who died in December 1911. Perhaps he went under the anglicisation of his name?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 23 May 18 12:57 BST (UK)
Couldn't resist it - I am on a roll, so have cancelled something to come to Newcastle.  However, death notice for name you give turns out to be puzzling ???:

Evening Chronicle - Thursday 19 July, 1934

'Whelan.- 169, Portland Road, on the 17th inst., aged 72 years, Anastasia, beloved wife of the late Michael Whelan.  Cortege received at St Dominic's Church, Friday, 9.45 a.m.  Requiem Mass 10 a.m.  Interment All Saints 10.45 a.m.  Friends please accept this the only intimation.  On whose soul, sweet Jesus, have mercy.  R.I.P.'

Could husband have changed both names or did she remarry or is this another lady entirely? ???  Very puzzling!  Not sure if this might be a bit of a break through of your brick wall - I hope it is.  :)

Now this is very interesting.

This burial has got to be the same one as that found on Family Search as Anastasia Battista Whelan. There can't have been two burials of an Anastasia Whelan at St Dominics on the same day!

It says she is the widow of the late Michael Whelan.

Giovanni was born c. 1847

There is a death in Newcastle on Tyne in 1904 of a Michael Whalen aged 57, i.e. born 1847

Is this just a coincidence?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 23 May 18 13:14 BST (UK)
Couldn't resist it - I am on a roll, so have cancelled something to come to Newcastle.  However, death notice for name you give turns out to be puzzling ???:

Evening Chronicle - Thursday 19 July, 1934

'Whelan.- 169, Portland Road, on the 17th inst., aged 72 years, Anastasia, beloved wife of the late Michael Whelan.  Cortege received at St Dominic's Church, Friday, 9.45 a.m.  Requiem Mass 10 a.m.  Interment All Saints 10.45 a.m.  Friends please accept this the only intimation.  On whose soul, sweet Jesus, have mercy.  R.I.P.'

Could husband have changed both names or did she remarry or is this another lady entirely? ???  Very puzzling!  Not sure if this might be a bit of a break through of your brick wall - I hope it is.  :)

Now this is very interesting.

This burial has got to be the same one as that found on Family Search as Anastasia Battista Whelan. There can't have been two burials of an Anastasia Whelan at St Dominics on the same day!

It says she is the widow of the late Michael Whelan.

Giovanni was born c. 1847

There is a death in Newcastle on Tyne in 1904 of a Michael Whalen aged 57, i.e. born 1847

Is this just a coincidence?

I think it is just a coincidence  >:(

Anastasia's first husband was Michael Whelan.  The death announcement doesn't mention her second husband  :-\
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Wednesday 23 May 18 13:22 BST (UK)
I think it is just a coincidence  >:(

Anastasia's first husband was Michael Whelan.  The death announcement doesn't mention her second husband  :-\
Do you know her maiden name? I thought of this myself but am struggling to find a Michael Whelan/Whalen married to an Anastasia anybody.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Wednesday 23 May 18 13:31 BST (UK)
Per the linked posts, Anastasia Whalen/Whelan is on the Newcastle voting records at various addresses from 1903.  No husband is listed, and the return to her maiden surname suggests they may have separated.

In later years Mary Alice Whelan is with her, as is John Slavin.   A Mary Alice Whelan died in Newcastle in 1952 aged 66, which would fit with her daughter Maria Alicia.   

A John Slavin & Anastatia Whelan married in 1916, and there is a death in 1922 for an Anastasia Slavin aged 28, so likely the daughter as there are two Slavin/Whelan births, one in 1916 and one in 1919.
Returning to this for a moment, I think this may be the son born in 1919.

"SLAVIN - Newcastle, 7 Clarence Street, 25th inst., aged 20 years, Joseph Emmanual, dearly beloved son of John and the late Anastasia Slavin (nee Whelan). Cortège to be received into St. Dominic's Church, Tuesday, 8:20pm; Requiem Mass, Wednesday, 10am. Interment All Saints' Cemetery directly after Mass. All friends, neighbours, and members of Blessed Sacrament Guild kindly invited. On whose soul, sweet Jesus, have mercy. RIP."

Printed in the Evening Chronicle, 27th March 1939.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 13:35 BST (UK)
Even more puzzling! ???

Evening Chronicle - Thursday, December 8, 1904

'WHELAN - Jarrow. 6th inst., Michael Whelan.  Interment on Friday, at 2.15, from his niece, Mrs Mallen's residence, 20, Shakespeare Street, Jarrow.  All friends kindly invited. R.I.P.'

Presumably, this Michael would be buried at Jarrow Cemetery. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 23 May 18 13:46 BST (UK)
I think it is just a coincidence  >:(

Anastasia's first husband was Michael Whelan.  The death announcement doesn't mention her second husband  :-\
Do you know her maiden name? I thought of this myself but am struggling to find a Michael Whelan/Whalen married to an Anastasia anybody.

For the birth of Mary A. her maiden name is given as Findlay. For Anastasia and Ellen its Fenly (GRO Index)
On Anastasia's baptism (Family search) its Finley.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 13:57 BST (UK)
I have just found the All Saints burial for Anastasia!

Entry: 71,879
Burial: 20 July 1934
Anastasia Whelan Battista (However, there is a big black line crossed over Whelan)
F written for female
72 years written but there is a line crossing the 72 out and next to this is 69 yrs.
The words 'Upper B ?)' is written for residence but this also has a line through and in its place is written 169 Portland Road, then possibly 'St Judes' under parish but this last is not very clear due to hand writing style
Ceremony by: looks like F. John Leather
Place of burial: Section B  1041 - this has ink marks over
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 23 May 18 14:01 BST (UK)
For the record I think this might be Michael and Anastastia in 1891 in Willington Quay (given as the birthplace of Giovanni's step-daughters in 1901)

RG 12 / 4222 / 64 / 8

65 Stephenson Street, Willington Quay

Michael Walhon, head, m, 33, labourer, Ireland
A S do, wife, m, 29, do
P. do, son, s, 10, scholar, Northumberland
C. do, daur, s, 6, do
M A do, do, s, 4, do
E do, do, s, 1, do

M A presumably Mary A aged 15 in 1901
E presumably Ellen aged 11 in 1901.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 14:33 BST (UK)
I have just found burial for Joseph Slavin at All Saints.  Grave number is only three numbers away from Anastasia.

Entry No too dark on microfilm to make out
Burial: March 29, 1939
Joseph Emmanual (sic) Slavin
20 years
Residence: 7 Clarence Street
Place where death occurred: 418 Westgate Road
Section B  1044
Parish: Christ Church
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 15:11 BST (UK)
Evening Chronicle - Monday May 12, 1952

'WHELAN, Newcastle, 17, Grantham Road, May 9, aged 66 years, Mary Alice, beloved daughter of late Michael and Anastasia.  Interment All Saints, Wednesday, after Requiem Mass, St Dominic's 10 a.m.  R.I.P.'

She was removed from St Barnabus Parish and buried in Unconsecrated ground Section A  214 and a 1/2.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 15:51 BST (UK)
Evening Chronicle - Wednesday January 25, 1922

'SLAVIN.- 37, Breamish  St., in the 24th inst., aged 28 years, Anastasia (nee Whelan) dearly beloved wife of John Slavin; daughter of Michael and Anastasia Whelan.  Remove to St. Dominic's Church in Thursday at 5.30 p.m..  Require Mass on Friday at 10 a.m.  Interment All Saints Cemetery on Friday at 11 a.m. All friends kindly invited.  On whose soul, sweet Jesus have mercy.  R.I.P.'

She was buried in same grave as Joseph.  Section B 1041.  This may mean grave was purchased.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Wednesday 23 May 18 16:09 BST (UK)
She was buried in same grave as Joseph.  Section B 1041.  This may mean grave was purchased.
Do you mean the same as Anastasia Battista? She's the one you have in 1041 and Joseph Slavin in 1044. Or do you mean she's in 1044?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 16:15 BST (UK)
Evening Chronicle - Wednesday December 27 1899.

'Whalen.- Morpeth Asylum, on 24th inst., aged 40 years, Michael Whalen, beloved husband of Anastatia Whalen.  To be interred at Wallsend Cemetery on Dec. 28.  Cortege will leave residence, 16 Palmer's Terrace, Willington Quay at 3 o'clock.  All members and friends of the Shepherd's and Oddfellows Lodge kindly invited.  R.I.P.'

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 16:20 BST (UK)
Yes, you are correct the same grave as Mother.  I am getting quite tired now trying to chunk away at this brick wall for Battista....

Anastasia Slavin confirmed again buried Section B 1041. :)

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 23 May 18 16:24 BST (UK)
Evening Chronicle - Wednesday December 27 1899.

'Whalen.- Morpeth Asylum, on 24th inst., aged 40 years, Michael Whalen, beloved husband of Anastatia Whalen.  To be interred at Wallsend Cemetery on Dec. 28.  Cottage will leave residence, 16 Palmer's Terrace, Willington Quay at 3 o'clock.  All members and friends of the Shepherd's and Oddfellows Lodge kindly invited.  R.I.P.'

Excellent, so now we know when Michael died, followed by Anastatia marrying Giovanni in 1901.
Michael was committed to Morpeth Asylum in April 1899.

Even more puzzling! ???

Evening Chronicle - Thursday, December 8, 1904

'WHELAN - Jarrow. 6th inst., Michael Whelan.  Interment on Friday, at 2.15, from his niece, Mrs Mallen's residence, 20, Shakespeare Street, Jarrow.  All friends kindly invited. R.I.P.'

Presumably, this Michael would be buried at Jarrow Cemetery. 

So we can probably discount this one - although I can't find this Michael in 1901  :-\ the surname Whelan pops up with multiple different spellings!

Battista, although nothing positive yet on Giovanni's fate, I'm sure you'll agree that RTL has done some fantastic research for you today  :D

I am getting quite tired now trying to chunk away at this brick wall for Battista....

I'm not surprised. I hope you aren't on night shift  :-\
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 16:31 BST (UK)
No, thankfully. .. no nightshift tonight Jen! ;D ;D ;D

I will be interested to see what Battista makes of all this ... as for me I am now so tired I am beyond all thought for the moment... ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Wednesday 23 May 18 16:55 BST (UK)
Potentially he was buried next to his first wife (Elizabeth), second wife (Anastasia) or perhaps one of his brothers Vincenzo or Antonio. Anastasia was buried in St. Dominic, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne. The others I don't know. Worth checking out.
Do you have Antonio's death? Only I've found a reference to an "Anthony" Battista who died in December 1911. Perhaps he went under the anglicisation of his name?
Just answered my own question. Did a lookup on FreeBMD and the news article I've found relates to Giovanni's son, not brother. So the brother is still outstanding.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 23 May 18 16:57 BST (UK)
.. as for me I am now so tired I am beyond all thought for the moment... ;D

Go and rest on your laurels  :) You might not have found Giovanni, but you've found a lot of other interesting information  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 18:53 BST (UK)
Phew!  After a quicker breather a couple more posts ..

Henry Leo Battista
Buried Elswick Cemetery
Entry No: 36224
Age 10 months
2 Stowell Square
St John's Parish
Buried July 16th 1902
Section S   no 201

No death notice.  Elswick Cemetery map on link below.

http://www.margaret-hall-genealogy.com/page9.htm
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 23 May 18 18:58 BST (UK)
Brother?

Evening Chronicle - 5 January 1900

'BATTISTA - Newcastle 6 Stowell Street on the 4th inst., aged 47, Vincenzo Battista, beloved husband of Mary Jane Battista.  Interment on Sunday, at Elswick at 2.30. All friends invited.'

Perhaps the Battistas chose to live close by each other?

Perhaps Mary Jane remarried in 1901?

Home residence is where China Town is in Newcastle nowadays.  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 20:38 BST (UK)
Oh wow, lots of work has been going on here! I've just woken up, so it'll take a bit to process this all.

Couldn't resist it - I am on a roll, so have cancelled something to come to Newcastle.  However, death notice for name you give turns out to be puzzling ???:

Evening Chronicle - Thursday 19 July, 1934

'Whelan.- 169, Portland Road, on the 17th inst., aged 72 years, Anastasia, beloved wife of the late Michael Whelan.  Cortege received at St Dominic's Church, Friday, 9.45 a.m.  Requiem Mass 10 a.m.  Interment All Saints 10.45 a.m.  Friends please accept this the only intimation.  On whose soul, sweet Jesus, have mercy.  R.I.P.'

Could husband have changed both names or did she remarry or is this another lady entirely? ???  Very puzzling!  Not sure if this might be a bit of a break through of your brick wall - I hope it is.  :)

Now this is very interesting.

This burial has got to be the same one as that found on Family Search as Anastasia Battista Whelan. There can't have been two burials of an Anastasia Whelan at St Dominics on the same day!

It says she is the widow of the late Michael Whelan.

Giovanni was born c. 1847

There is a death in Newcastle on Tyne in 1904 of a Michael Whalen aged 57, i.e. born 1847

Is this just a coincidence?

I think it is just a coincidence  >:(

Anastasia's first husband was Michael Whelan.  The death announcement doesn't mention her second husband  :-\

I think it is just a coincidence  >:(

Anastasia's first husband was Michael Whelan.  The death announcement doesn't mention her second husband  :-\
Do you know her maiden name? I thought of this myself but am struggling to find a Michael Whelan/Whalen married to an Anastasia anybody.

Michaelis Whalan is Anastasia's first husband, he's listed as the father of all her children in "England, Select Births and Christenings". The only records I have from him are from the children's births. I did attach sources to Michael's FamilySearch profile when I used to use that (moved to Ancestry now) https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/9N25-WSC . You should be able to see them there.

Potentially he was buried next to his first wife (Elizabeth), second wife (Anastasia) or perhaps one of his brothers Vincenzo or Antonio. Anastasia was buried in St. Dominic, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne. The others I don't know. Worth checking out.
Do you have Antonio's death? Only I've found a reference to an "Anthony" Battista who died in December 1911. Perhaps he went under the anglicisation of his name?

Antonio's death in 1911 is Giovanni's son, his brother also named Antonio died in 1936, age 81 (so born around 1855). You can find this on FreeBMD, I haven't added him to my tree yet. I know Vincenzo is likely Giovanni's brother, as his descendants contacted my family last year informing us of their oral family history. Vincenzo is living with Giovanni in the 1881 census. As for Antonio, I've found he is potentially Giovanni's brother as a woman who seems to know a lot about the family has added further oral history that Giovanni, Vincenzo and Antonio came from Cassino Italy together. Not verified yet, but I think it's worth looking into. They all lived very close to each other, had the same occupations.

Per the linked posts, Anastasia Whalen/Whelan is on the Newcastle voting records at various addresses from 1903.  No husband is listed, and the return to her maiden surname suggests they may have separated.

In later years Mary Alice Whelan is with her, as is John Slavin.   A Mary Alice Whelan died in Newcastle in 1952 aged 66, which would fit with her daughter Maria Alicia.   

A John Slavin & Anastatia Whelan married in 1916, and there is a death in 1922 for an Anastasia Slavin aged 28, so likely the daughter as there are two Slavin/Whelan births, one in 1916 and one in 1919.
Returning to this for a moment, I think this may be the son born in 1919.

"SLAVIN - Newcastle, 7 Clarence Street, 25th inst., aged 20 years, Joseph Emmanual, dearly beloved son of John and the late Anastasia Slavin (nee Whelan). Cortège to be received into St. Dominic's Church, Tuesday, 8:20pm; Requiem Mass, Wednesday, 10am. Interment All Saints' Cemetery directly after Mass. All friends, neighbours, and members of Blessed Sacrament Guild kindly invited. On whose soul, sweet Jesus, have mercy. RIP."

Printed in the Evening Chronicle, 27th March 1939.

Ah... that does explain a bit.

Will be back shortly to go over the rest of these posts.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 21:12 BST (UK)
Couldn't resist it - I am on a roll, so have cancelled something to come to Newcastle.

 :o

For the record I think this might be Michael and Anastastia in 1891 in Willington Quay (given as the birthplace of Giovanni's step-daughters in 1901)

RG 12 / 4222 / 64 / 8

65 Stephenson Street, Willington Quay

Michael Walhon, head, m, 33, labourer, Ireland
A S do, wife, m, 29, do
P. do, son, s, 10, scholar, Northumberland
C. do, daur, s, 6, do
M A do, do, s, 4, do
E do, do, s, 1, do

M A presumably Mary A aged 15 in 1901
E presumably Ellen aged 11 in 1901.

Agreed.

@River Tyne Lass: That is a lot of new information, thank you!

I didn't realise Joseph Slavin (son of Anastasia the daughter I presume) existed, I can add his birth and death to my collection now :D

Mary Alice Whalan, I didn't have a death for her listed, that's very handy.

Anastasia the daughter's gravesite found as well, it's also nice to confirm that daughter was, in fact, the one to marry John Slavin, not the mother.

A death year for Michael Whalan! The only records I had of him were from his children's birth records, now I have an approximate age for him too! :)

Evening Chronicle - Wednesday December 27 1899.

'Whalen.- Morpeth Asylum, on 24th inst., aged 40 years, Michael Whalen, beloved husband of Anastatia Whalen.  To be interred at Wallsend Cemetery on Dec. 28.  Cottage will leave residence, 16 Palmer's Terrace, Willington Quay at 3 o'clock.  All members and friends of the Shepherd's and Oddfellows Lodge kindly invited.  R.I.P.'

Excellent, so now we know when Michael died, followed by Anastatia marrying Giovanni in 1901.
Michael was committed to Morpeth Asylum in April 1899.

Even more puzzling! ???

Evening Chronicle - Thursday, December 8, 1904

'WHELAN - Jarrow. 6th inst., Michael Whelan.  Interment on Friday, at 2.15, from his niece, Mrs Mallen's residence, 20, Shakespeare Street, Jarrow.  All friends kindly invited. R.I.P.'

Presumably, this Michael would be buried at Jarrow Cemetery. 

So we can probably discount this one - although I can't find this Michael in 1901  :-\ the surname Whelan pops up with multiple different spellings!

Battista, although nothing positive yet on Giovanni's fate, I'm sure you'll agree that RTL has done some fantastic research for you today  :D

I am getting quite tired now trying to chunk away at this brick wall for Battista....

I'm not surprised. I hope you aren't on night shift  :-\

Completely agreed, an excellent surprise to wake up to!

Henry Leo Battista, Giovanni's son I didn't know existed, a burial location for him as well. Elswick Cemetery, perhaps Giovanni might be buried close by?

Brother?

Evening Chronicle - 5 January 1900

'BATTISTA - Newcastle 6 Stowell Street on the 4th inst., aged 47, Vincenzo Battista, beloved husband of Mary Jane Battista.  Interment on Sunday, at Elswick at 2.30. All friends invited.'

Perhaps the Battistas chose to live close by each other?

Perhaps Mary Jane remarried in 1901?

Home residence is where China Town is in Newcastle nowadays.  :)

Yes, from my understanding the Battistas did live close by to each other. From the oral accounts that have been passed to me, they seemed to be a close family those 3 brothers.

Outstanding work @River Tyne Lass, far more information than I thought I'd learn. I'll be putting all that new info into my own records now :D

I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me, even going to Newcastle! I'm definitely going to have to plan a trip there one day.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Wednesday 23 May 18 22:38 BST (UK)
Antonio's death in 1911 is Giovanni's son, his brother also named Antonio died in 1936, age 81 (so born around 1855). You can find this on FreeBMD, I haven't added him to my tree yet.
Yes, I looked on FreeBMD and realised it couldn't be the brother. Have you seen/got the news articles about son Antonio and his daughter?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 22:43 BST (UK)
Antonio's death in 1911 is Giovanni's son, his brother also named Antonio died in 1936, age 81 (so born around 1855). You can find this on FreeBMD, I haven't added him to my tree yet.
Yes, I looked on FreeBMD and realised it couldn't be the brother. Have you seen/got the news articles about son Antonio and his daughter?

Do you mean the article about the drowning of Antonio (Giovanni's son) and his daughter who also drowned earlier that year? Then yes, I've also got an article detailing the inquest of Antonio's drowning.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 22:54 BST (UK)
Added: I forgot to add name of cemetery.  It is Preston Cemetery, North Shields.  Thanks Jen for letting me know if omission - what would I do on here without you to keep me right.  :) ;)

Is this the cemetery for Elizabeth E Battista, Giovanni's wife?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Wednesday 23 May 18 23:09 BST (UK)
Do you mean the article about the drowning of Antonio (Giovanni's son) and his daughter who also drowned earlier that year? Then yes, I've also got an article detailing the inquest of Antonio's drowning.
Yes, the two inquests. Okay, good. I would have transcribed them, but if you have them then there's no need :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 23:19 BST (UK)
Do you mean the article about the drowning of Antonio (Giovanni's son) and his daughter who also drowned earlier that year? Then yes, I've also got an article detailing the inquest of Antonio's drowning.
Yes, the two inquests. Okay, good. I would have transcribed them, but if you have them then there's no need :)

Two inquests? I have one from the Sunderland Daily Echo, Jan 5th 1912 named "A Watchman's Death. Mystery of the river.". Starting with "Coroner Burnicle last night held an inquest in the Millum Terrace Mission on the body of Ton Battista (23)...." Very pixelated, but can kind of read it. Only one inquest though.

The other article I was talking about was "In Memoriam", but not an inquest.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Wednesday 23 May 18 23:28 BST (UK)
The inquest for Antonio's daughter, Elizabeth Ellen. It's about four paragraphs.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 23:36 BST (UK)
The inquest for Antonio's daughter, Elizabeth Ellen.

Ah, no, I don't have that inquest.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Wednesday 23 May 18 23:38 BST (UK)
Okay, would you like a transcript? Or I can give you the info to find it yourself if you want to and have a FindMyPast subscription.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 23:42 BST (UK)
Okay, would you like a transcript? Or I can give you the info to find it yourself if you want to and have a FindMyPast subscription.

I'll save you the time, info to find it myself will be fine. I'll sign up for the free trial :)

Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Silverhawk on Wednesday 23 May 18 23:44 BST (UK)
Sure thing. I found it in the Sunderland Daily Echo for the 15th September 1911. It's on page 6, the bottom third of the first column.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 23 May 18 23:45 BST (UK)
Sure thing. I found it in the Sunderland Daily Echo for the 15th September 1911. It's on page 6, the bottom third of the first column.

Thanks!  ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 24 May 18 09:20 BST (UK)
Hi Battista,

Just to confirm again that first wife Elizabeth is buried at Preston Cemetery North Shields and second wife Anastasia is buried at All Saints Cemetery, Newcastle upon Tyne.  Henry and Vincenzo are buried at Elswick Cemetery, Newcastle upon Tyne.

I think one way forward would be for you to email North Tyneside bereavement services regarding Elizabeth and Newcastle bereavement services regarding Anastasia and find out if graves are purchased and may have grave stones.  Sometimes, in my experience a loved one/family members death is inscribed 'In Memory of ..' on a grave even if they are not actually buried in the grave themselves.

Giovanni may be referred to in a grave stone possibly?   Let us know if there are grave stones.  I or someone else may be able to check cemeteries for you.   if you can confirm is there are grave stones.  I only live about 2 miles from Preston Cemetery and if there is a stone I will try to visit and find this to ascertain if Giovanni is mentioned - if you can confirm grave stone is erected.  I suspect you live in another country and this might be difficult for you to do yourself?

Mind, don't get hopes up too much - not every one had graves - especially if as in many cases money may have had to go on other priorities.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 24 May 18 09:30 BST (UK)
Sunderland was in the Durham area.  If you post on the Durham board perhaps a Sunderland RootsChatter may look up particular newspaper articles which may be needed?  The Sunderland newspaper is on microfilm at Sunderland local studies. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 24 May 18 10:37 BST (UK)
Hi Battista,

Just to confirm again that first wife Elizabeth is buried at Preston Cemetery North Shields and second wife Anastasia is buried at All Saints Cemetery, Newcastle upon Tyne.  Henry and Vincenzo are buried at Elswick Cemetery, Newcastle upon Tyne.

I think one way forward would be for you to email North Tyneside bereavement services regarding Elizabeth and Newcastle bereavement services regarding Anastasia and find out if graves are purchased and may have grave stones.  Sometimes, in my experience a loved one/family members death is inscribed 'In Memory of ..' on a grave even if they are not actually buried in the grave themselves.

Giovanni may be referred to in a grave stone possibly?   Let us know if there are grave stones.  I or someone else may be able to check cemeteries for you.   if you can confirm is there are grave stones.  I only live about 2 miles from Preston Cemetery and if there is a stone I will try to visit and find this to ascertain if Giovanni is mentioned - if you can confirm grave stone is erected.  I suspect you live in another country and this might be difficult for you to do yourself?

Mind, don't get hopes up too much - not every one had graves - especially if as in many cases money may have had to go on other priorities.

I don't expect any of them to have graves, all graves I know of in my family (non-Battista) were and are unmarked. Never know though, could get lucky :)

I will email both North Tyneside and Newcastle bereavement services. Elswick Cemetery seems like a promising lead though. I suspect Giovanni died within the first few years of 1900, not far off from Henry Leo, perhaps buried close by.

Perhaps the gravesites of Giovanni's other brother, Antonio or his children's gravesites might be of use.

I'll post in the Europe section here, maybe someone might be able to help me find out if he died in Italy, or even a birth record.

And yes, I am a bit of a distance away. Some 18,000 km, would take a bit to get there ;)

Sunderland was in the Durham area.  If you post on the Durham board perhaps a Sunderland RootsChatter may look up particular newspaper articles which may be needed?  The Sunderland newspaper is on microfilm at Sunderland local studies. :)

Hrmm, I'm a little bit lost. I know Giovanni lived in Sunderland in the 1870s, what particular newspaper articles in Sunderland would I be wanting?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 24 May 18 10:46 BST (UK)
I think RTL was referring to the newspaper articles mentioned by Silverhawk.

I think I’m right in saying that these can all be found via Findmypast.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 24 May 18 12:12 BST (UK)
I've sent both emails to North Tyneside and Newcastle bereavement services :)

North Tyneside just got back to me to say it's a £10.00 fee for searches in records pre-1995. Going to go ahead and pay that now.

EDIT: Looks like I can only pay by cheque or over the phone, both not very easy to do from New Zealand :(
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 24 May 18 12:34 BST (UK)
Thanks Jen - that's exactly what I did mean regarding the newspapers. :)  Sorry, I did not make myself clear.

Shame that they are charging for searches nowadays.  I do hope you have success eventually in finding what became of Giovanni!

Not sure if you have the marriage record for Giovanni and Anastasia  but I have found this at Tyne and Wear Archives that they married on 14 February 1901 at St Cuthbert, RC in North Shields.  If you don't have it already - this is another to add to your records. :)

'Giovanni Battista ex North Shields son of Antoni Battista & Anastasiam Whalen ex Willington Quay daughter of Timothei Finley.'

Present Witnesses: Guillolmus? (William I  presume) & Maria Joanna Battista.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 24 May 18 12:43 BST (UK)
Thanks Jen - that's exactly what I did mean regarding the newspapers. :)  Sorry, I did not make myself clear.

Shame that they are charging for searches nowadays.  I do hope you have success eventually in finding what became of Giovanni!

Not sure if you have the marriage record for Giovanni and Anastasia  but I have found this at Tyne and Wear Archives that they married on 14 February 1901 at St Cuthbert, RC in North Shields.  If you don't have it already - this is another to add to your records. :)

'Giovanni Battista ex North Shields son of Antoni Battista & Anastasiam Whalen ex Willington Quay daughter of Timothei Finley.'

Present Witnesses: Guillolmus? (William I  presume) & Maria Joanna Battista.

Thanks for all your help RTL, above and beyond :)

I don't have the marriage record for Giovanni and Anastasia, I've only ordered the 1885 marriage to Elizabeth (which I haven't received yet). Very handy to add to my records.

Guillolmus/William & Maria Joanna Battista... those are names I have never heard of before. I wonder who they could be.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 24 May 18 12:52 BST (UK)
'Giovanni Battista ex North Shields son of Antoni Battista & Anastasiam Whalen ex Willington Quay daughter of Timothei Finley.'

Wait a second. This is information I have been searching for! I specifically ordered Giovanni and Elizabeth's marriage certificate to find out the father of Giovanni to try and get a birth certificate from Italy, and you've just written it right here :D Now I have Anastasia's father too, which I forgot I wanted.

There was someone on ancestry who listed Giovanni's father as Antonio, they have a lot of information on their ancestry tree, but no sources. This bit of information here supports that their tree is at least partially, accurate. I've contacted this person, but so far, no response. This is very exciting news!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 24 May 18 12:53 BST (UK)
Going back over the original information, two children (at least) had been admitted to the Tynemouth Workhouse.  In 1909 William was then sent on to the Industrial School at Hull, but James remained in Tynemouth.  Might any remaining records there provide any further information?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 24 May 18 13:47 BST (UK)
Going back over the original information, two children (at least) had been admitted to the Tynemouth Workhouse.  In 1909 William was then sent on to the Industrial School at Hull, but James remained in Tynemouth.  Might any remaining records there provide any further information?

Hmm, what sort of information would be at the workhouse or industrial ship? I'm not sure what records they kept.

'Giovanni Battista ex North Shields son of Antoni Battista & Anastasiam Whalen ex Willington Quay daughter of Timothei Finley.'

Wait a second. This is information I have been searching for! I specifically ordered Giovanni and Elizabeth's marriage certificate to find out the father of Giovanni to try and get a birth certificate from Italy, and you've just written it right here :D Now I have Anastasia's father too, which I forgot I wanted.

There was someone on ancestry who listed Giovanni's father as Antonio, they have a lot of information on their ancestry tree, but no sources. This bit of information here supports that their tree is at least partially, accurate. I've contacted this person, but so far, no response. This is very exciting news!

Now to wait for the 1885 marriage to Elizabeth. Find out who her father is so I can track down her birth certificate as well. Hopefully all the GRO certs I ordered don't get lost in the mail when travelling to the other side of the world...

This brick wall for Giovanni's death might still be unfaultering, but at least my own records have expanded in other areas thanks to all of everyone's help here :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 24 May 18 13:53 BST (UK)
Going back over the original information, two children (at least) had been admitted to the Tynemouth Workhouse.  In 1909 William was then sent on to the Industrial School at Hull, but James remained in Tynemouth.  Might any remaining records there provide any further information?

Hmm, what sort of information would be at the workhouse or industrial ship? I'm not sure what records they kept.

I can’t do links at the moment, but check on Tyne & Wear Archives User Guides, Then select paupers records.

You will see on there the list of items available at the Archives for Tynemouth Poor Law Union.
These include some admission and discharge registers which could well hold interesting information.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 24 May 18 16:09 BST (UK)
This is wonderful to hear that the marriage information has been helpful. :)

Unfortunately, I missed seeing the above posts and I have been at Tyne and Wear Archives today. :-\  I am on a run of nightshifts starting tomorrow night.

Never mind, in a week or two I should be able to return and I will check workhouse records to see if there is more information.  Sometimes these records show who accompanied them when they were signed  in and where they came from, etc.  My own Great Grandfather had a sister who was signed in to the work house hospital part after she was attacked by a man and seriously injured.  The records show that her daughter signed her in and her daughter's address is given and the fact that this ancestor who was signed in was a widow, also who her husband was and his occupation and that she kept her own clothes rather than work house ones.  The records also record that she was taken out by a policeman (for the court case).  Records will also record of innate died.  So these workhouse records can show information of interest. :)

The archives are going to be closed for some of June as apparently the Blue Peter time capsule and the 'Rocket' of George Stephenson fame is coming to the museum - so we will all have to check their website before visiting to make sure of opening.

I just have to break off for a bit but will be posting on here again soon about some other discoveries today. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 24 May 18 16:47 BST (UK)
Some more finds today ..

Antonio Battista burial at Elswick Cemetery
Entry No: 74798
Residence: 103 Blandford House
Parish: St John
Where death occurred: General Hospital
Section S  grave 148

Evening Chronicle - Wednesday January 22, 1936
'BATTISTA. - 103 Blandford Street 20th inst., aged 81 years, Antonio, beloved husband of Christina Battista, of
Trafalgar Street.  Interment Elswick Cemetery.  Friday leaving residence 2.15 p.m.  All friends and neighbour kindly invited R.I.P. 

I wonder if this Christina remarried 1938?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 24 May 18 17:03 BST (UK)
Hi Battista,

These people may have nothing to do with your ancestors but I will tell you about this just in case you may find that these are in your family tree.

At Tyne and Wear Archives there is a massive book full of criminal mugshots from the early 1900s in North Tyneside.  (I bought a copy of a photo of one of my own ancestors from this book a couple of years ago.)

In this book the mugshots are very good clear photos.
There are two photos taken on separate occasions of John G. Battista - 9.6.1913 and 20.1.1910. Someone has written large writing 'DEAD' next to each entry.  Perhaps this may have been written shortly after his death in WW1? I believe each photo is of the same man.

There is also a photo of a 'Lily Spence alias Battista' - she looks very glum but is photoed wearing a very lovely hat!  Date under photo is 22.3.1912. (I think there is a possibility she may be the Lily who was mentioned in the WW1 death notice of John G Battista and referred to as his sister.)

There is also a photo of a 'John Whalen' - dated 4.2.1909.  He may or may not be any connection to Anastasia.  I expect the Shields Daily News will have printed about whatever crimes they will have been found guilty of.

Keep researching - you never know when that lucky break may be around the corner! The secret of what happened to Giovanni may still be discovered one day:)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 24 May 18 18:01 BST (UK)

I can’t do links at the moment, but check on Tyne & Wear Archives User Guides, Then select paupers records.

https://twarchives.org.uk/collection/user-guides-and-information

Details of the Paupers Records held by T & W Archives are in the section marked Other Topics.

As RTL said, there is often useful information to be found in the Workhouse Papers.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 24 May 18 20:57 BST (UK)
This is wonderful to hear that the marriage information has been helpful. :)

Unfortunately, I missed seeing the above posts and I have been at Tyne and Wear Archives today. :-\ I am on a run of nightshifts starting tomorrow night.

Never mind, in a week or two I should be able to return and I will check workhouse records to see if there is more information. Sometimes these records show who accompanied them when they were signed in and where they came from, etc. My own Great Grandfather had a sister who was signed in to the work house hospital part after she was attacked by a man and seriously injured. The records show that her daughter signed her in and her daughter's address is given and the fact that this ancestor who was signed in was a widow, also who her husband was and his occupation and that she kept her own clothes rather than work house ones. The records also record that she was taken out by a policeman (for the court case). Records will also record of innate died. So these workhouse records can show information of interest. :)

The archives are going to be closed for some of June as apparently the Blue Peter time capsule and the 'Rocket' of George Stephenson fame is coming to the museum - so we will all have to check their website before visiting to make sure of opening.

I just have to break off for a bit but will be posting on here again soon about some other discoveries today. :)

Thank you so much :)

Hi Battista,

These people may have nothing to do with your ancestors but I will tell you about this just in case you may find that these are in your family tree.

At Tyne and Wear Archives there is a massive book full of criminal mugshots from the early 1900s in North Tyneside. (I bought a copy of a photo of one of my own ancestors from this book a couple of years ago.)

In this book the mugshots are very good clear photos.
There are two photos taken on separate occasions of John G. Battista - 9.6.1913 and 20.1.1910. Someone has written large writing 'DEAD' next to each entry. Perhaps this may have been written shortly after his death in WW1? I believe each photo is of the same man.

There is also a photo of a 'Lily Spence alias Battista' - she looks very glum but is photoed wearing a very lovely hat! Date under photo is 22.3.1912. (I think there is a possibility she may be the Lily who was mentioned in the WW1 death notice of John G Battista and referred to as his sister.)

There is also a photo of a 'John Whalen' - dated 4.2.1909. He may or may not be any connection to Anastasia. I expect the Shields Daily News will have printed about whatever crimes they will have been found guilty of.

Keep researching - you never know when that lucky break may be around the corner! The secret of what happened to Giovanni may still be discovered one day:)

This is also very exciting news, both John G Battista and Lilly Spence are children of Giovanni. I know Orselina went by the name Lily, and she married Francis Spence in 1905.

These are both in my family tree. How could I get copies of these photos? I wonder if there's a photo of Giovanni out there.

John Whalen, not sure about him, don't have any information on him.

I'll definitely keep looking for Giovanni's death, one of these days I'm sure I'll find it. Elswick Cemetery seems promising, lots of Battistas in there.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 24 May 18 20:58 BST (UK)

I can’t do links at the moment, but check on Tyne & Wear Archives User Guides, Then select paupers records.

https://twarchives.org.uk/collection/user-guides-and-information

Details of the Paupers Records held by T & W Archives are in the section marked Other Topics.

As RTL said, there is often useful information to be found in the Workhouse Papers.

Ok, thanks. I did try and search that site a few weeks ago, had trouble using it. This will be useful :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: libby9 on Friday 25 May 18 03:35 BST (UK)
I don't think these have been mentioned, but such a long thread.

Born and died same year/qrt/Place

Birth
BATTISTA, ANGELINA        HALLIDAY  (MMN)
GRO Reference: 1911  M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE  Volume 10B Page 87
Death
BATTISTA, ANGELINA        0      
GRO Reference: 1911  M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE  Volume 10B  Page 77

Marriages Sep 1910   
Battista    Antonio/Margaret G Holliday         Newcastle T.    10b   140   
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 25 May 18 04:09 BST (UK)
I don't think these have been mentioned, but such a long thread.

Born and died same year/qrt/Place

Birth
BATTISTA, ANGELINA        HALLIDAY  (MMN)
GRO Reference: 1911  M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE  Volume 10B Page 87
Death
BATTISTA, ANGELINA        0      
GRO Reference: 1911  M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE  Volume 10B  Page 77

Marriages Sep 1910   
Battista    Antonio/Margaret G Holliday         Newcastle T.    10b   140

That marriage is for Antonio Battista, son of Vincenzo Battista. Vincenzo is Giovanni's brother. Angelina is Antonio and Margaret's child, I haven't actually done that branch of my tree yet.

@libby9 Thanks for the extra info :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 25 May 18 04:45 BST (UK)
Hi ,
Giovanni Battista , of 89,Finchley Road , Hampstead , Middlesex , died 16th May 1931 at The Italian Hospital , Queen Square , Middlesex . His widow was Camilla Battista .
Is this your  Giovanni ?

Unfortunately, that's not my Giovanni. The one who died in 1931 was born in about 1870 in Naples, whereas my Giovanni was born 1847 in Cassino/Rocca d'Arce, quite a bit of distance off time wise and location wise for both Italy and UK records.

I have seen that Giovanni Battista before, he's well documented on some ancestry family trees, which I've already looked at.

I remember I was excited when I first found that record, but another dead end :P

@gaynor Thanks for tracking that down, never know, could get lucky.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: gaynor on Friday 25 May 18 05:21 BST (UK)
Hi ,
Also found a Death Reg for
GIOVANI BATISTA , Dec quarter 1915 , Chelsea , England ;States age as being 55 yrs - ages on death certificates are not always exact , my grandmother died in 1970 and my uncle registered her age as being 2 yrs older than she was .
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 25 May 18 05:39 BST (UK)
Hi ,
Also found a Death Reg for
GIOVANI BATISTA , Dec quarter 1915 , Chelsea , England ;States age as being 55 yrs - ages on death certificates are not always exact , my grandmother died in 1970 and my uncle registered her age as being 2 yrs older than she was .

I've found that one too, I ordered the death certificate. Here's some info about it below.

  • 'Giovani Battista' death index/certificate from 1915. Died in Chelsea, aged 55 years. Here it is: https://imgur.com/1W3G9E1 Age is off by about 13 years, location isn't where I'd expect and doesn't match with his son's birth certificate listing him as deceased in 1910. Could be him, but there's a lot wrong here, and I'm not sure how to check it.

The one who died in 1931 is 23 years off (and is well documented as a separate individual from my Giovanni), the one who died in 1915 is 13 years off. Could be him, but there's no matching evidence apart from the name to suggest that it is.

2 or 3 years age difference I'd expect, 13 - 23 years, is too far. Not to mention the locations are not near where my Giovanni has been known to live.

I've ruled out the 1931 for now, as I have records of him existing at the same time as my Giovanni (so I know there are two of them in England) as well as plenty of other records of the 1870-1931 Giovanni. 1915 death is not completely ruled out, it's still a possibility. However, it is the wrong location, age and also Giovanni's son's marriage certificate lists him as deceased in 1910, the Battista family has split up and he's nowhere to be found in the 1911 census. Still keeping an eye on that 1915 death though.

Some more information about the Chelsea death from 1915 can be found here: https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/92019-Missing-death-index-and-certificate
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 25 May 18 09:37 BST (UK)
Hi Battista,

Lily Spence alias Battista appears in page 190 of the huge criminal mugshots book - John on pages 160 and 232; John Whalen is on page 145.  Tyne and Wear Archives would charge to take a copy of the photo and I am sure they could send this to you by email.  I will find out how much the current charge will be.

This is a wonderful photo in my opinion and so are the other ones I mentioned.  Lily looks very glum but she is wearing a very nice, fancy looking hat!  The earlier picture of John G Battista in the newspaper I mentioned are not The best in quality but The ones at Tyne and Wear Archives are excellent.  The images are excellent.  Hang fire for a little bit as I know there is a link on-line somewhere where someone out a lot of these photos.  I think it is on a TWAS blog.  I will ask the staff if they can tell me which blog.  It has been a while since I looked at it and unfortunately my ancestor wasn't one of the many included to I had to pay for his photo.  Sadly, my ancestor also was killed - 4 years after his mugshot photo in WW1.

This book of photos is so huge it is stored in a very big box and is very heavy!

If you can wait until back end of next week I will look at the newspapers North Shields library and see if I can find out the stories behind these arrests. 

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: gaynor on Friday 25 May 18 09:42 BST (UK)
I didn't realise how many Giovanni Battista there were in the U.K. when I read your post and decided to see if I could help .
( I also found a newspaper article about a Giovanni Battista , dated May 1915 , who had drowned at sea during bad weather . I ruled this gentleman out as the article stated he was in the Royal Navy .)
Re the marriage certificate information , I wouldn't rule out Giovanni still being alive at the time . When couples split up the wives would often refer to themselves as "Widows" at this time .
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 25 May 18 10:01 BST (UK)
Hi Battista,

Lily Spence alias Battista appears in page 190 of the huge criminal mugshots book - John on pages 160 and 232; John Whalen is on page 145.  Tyne and Wear Archives would charge to take a copy of the photo and I am sure they could send this to you by email.  I will find out how much the current charge will be.

This is a wonderful photo in my opinion and so are the other ones I mentioned.  Lily looks very glum but she is wearing a very nice, fancy looking hat!  The earlier picture of John G Battista in the newspaper I mentioned are not The best in quality but The ones at Tyne and Wear Archives are excellent.  The images are excellent.  Hang fire for a little bit as I know there is a link on-line somewhere where someone out a lot of these photos.  I think it is on a TWAS blog.  I will ask the staff if they can tell me which blog.  It has been a while since I looked at it and unfortunately my ancestor wasn't one of the many included to I had to pay for his photo.  Sadly, my ancestor also was killed - 4 years after his mugshot photo in WW1.

This book of photos is so huge it is stored in a very big box and is very heavy!

If you can wait until back end of next week I will look at the newspapers North Shields library and see if I can find out the stories behind these arrests.

Thank you! I can definitely wait, I'm currently waiting for my GRO certificates, which will take weeks to get to me. I will definitely purchase the photos if I must :)

I didn't realise how many Giovanni Battista there were in the U.K. when I read your post and decided to see if I could help .
( I also found a newspaper article about a Giovanni Battista , dated May 1915 , who had drowned at sea during bad weather . I ruled this gentleman out as the article stated he was in the Royal Navy .)
Re the marriage certificate information , I wouldn't rule out Giovanni still being alive at the time . When couples split up the wives would often refer to themselves as "Widows" at this time .

Hmm, 1915 at sea. His son Pasqualino Battista was in the navy during this time. I wonder how old the Giovanni who drowned was, I can't find anything of relevance in the GRO or FreeBMD death indexes for that year (other than Chelsea Giovanni).

Yes, Giovanni Battista is quite a common name, it actually means John the Baptist, so you can imagine it was very popular with the Italians. Usually it's a compound first name, like Giovanni Battista Giraldi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Battista

In my case, Battista is actually his surname, not part of his given name. His brothers are all Battista too.

I haven't ruled out him being alive past 1910, if I do find a record that matches past that time, I'll happily welcome it :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 25 May 18 10:06 BST (UK)
Hang fire for a little bit as I know there is a link on-line somewhere where someone out a lot of these photos.  I think it is on a TWAS blog. 

I think you might be thinking of this one, but it was only for the years 1871 - 1873
https://www.flickr.com/photos/twm_news/sets/72157625464218629/
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 25 May 18 10:24 BST (UK)
http://blog.twmuseums.org.uk/crime-and-punishment-in-north-shields/

Could it be this link?

By the way Tyne and Archives staff have since told me that they charge £7 per 'low res' photo emailed and £10  plus posting and packaging for each photo to be sent on CD.  Apparently, if you go on the ordering page it will give the cost of posting and packaging.

Added:  This is the link I was thinking of. :)   Aren't the photos fantastic! :) I haven't had time to check yet if the Battistas are included or not on here. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 25 May 18 11:21 BST (UK)
This has been a tight squeeze to fit this in today as I have to go off elsewhere soon and I am on nightshift tonight - however, I have nipped back to the archives and have found a discharge for William Battista at the Tynemouth Workhouse in North Shields:

Nov. 5th 1909
Batista William
age 12
Was discharged at 7 a.m.
He had been admitted from Tynemouth
Religion: RC
Remarks: To Industrial Ship "Southampton" at Hull.

I can stay here just a little while longer.  Can anyone provide any more information on the Battistas at the workhouse?  Does anyone have any knowledge of when they may have been admitted?  Any help may speed up my researching.

I think the workhouse records could prove useful if finding clues about what may have happened to Giovanni possibly.  It is definitely worth exploring, I think. 

Just as an aside there were a number of Whalen's discharged in January 1909.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 25 May 18 11:29 BST (UK)
This has been a tight squeeze to fit this in today as I have to go off elsewhere soon and I am on nightshift tonight - however, I have nipped back to the archives and have found a discharge for William Battista at the Tynemouth Workhouse in North Shields:

Nov. 5th 1909
Batista William
age 12
Was discharged at 7 a.m.
He had been admitted from Tynemouth
Religion: RC
Remarks: To Industrial Ship "Southampton" at Hull.

I can stay here just a little while longer.  Can anyone provide any more information on the Battistas at the workhouse?  Does anyone have any knowledge of when they may have been admitted?  Any help may speed up my researching.

I think the workhouse records could prove useful if finding clues about what may have happened to Giovanni possibly.  It is definitely worth exploring, I think. 

Just as an aside there were a number of Whalen's discharged in January 1909.

Hmm, I can try, although I have no idea what to look for.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 25 May 18 11:33 BST (UK)
I think the Workhouse link with the boys could well be very useful, but I can't find any information about admission dates I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 25 May 18 11:48 BST (UK)
Marriage for Orlsolina found!  Giovanna is not described as deceased so may have died after 1905! :)

St Augustin, North Shields
Entry 410
Francis Spence & Orlsolina Battista
June 3rd 1905
His age: 25
Her age: 21
Bachelor and Spinster
He was a Miner
Residence for both: 69 Linskill Street
Fathers: Francis Spence - Master (Mariner?) & John Battista - Tailor
By Banns
Witnesses: John (D or S?) Douglass & Susan Joyce.
All signed.

Also as a note, I have read over the marriage record for Giovanna and Anastasia for yesterday and it should read that one of the witnesses was William Bell.  Sorry, I got distracted by trying to get the RC spelling right I accidentally missed off his surname.  The other was 'Maria Joanna Battista'.

Battista, I didn't mean specifically you when I asked for more workhouse information I am just throwing this open to any RootsChatters who may be able to help.  I think I will be able to find the admittance records eventually, though perhaps not today.  May have to wait a week or two.  But I think this was a good idea of Jomot to have raised this again as the records may hold clues. :)

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 25 May 18 11:53 BST (UK)
Marriage for Orlsolina found!  Giovanna is not described as deceased so may have died after 1905! :)

St Augustin, North Shields
Entry 410
Francis Spence & Orlsolina Battista
June 3rd 1905
His age: 25
Her age: 21
Bachelor and Spinster
He was a Miner
Residence for both: 69 Linskill Street
Fathers: Francis Spence - Master (Mariner?) & John Battista - Tailor
By Banns
Witnesses: John (D or S?) Douglass & Susan Joyce.
All signed.

Also as a note, I have read over the marriage record for Giovanna and Anastasia for yesterday and it should read that one of the witnesses was William Bell.  Sorry, I got distracted by trying to get the RC spelling right I accidentally missed off his surname.  The other was 'Maria Joanna Battista'.

Battista, I didn't mean specifically you when I asked for more workhouse information I am just throwing this open to any RootsChatters who may be able to help.  I think I will be able to find the admittance records eventually, though perhaps not today.  May have to wait a week or two.  But I think this was a good idea of Jomot to have raised this again as the records may hold clues. :)

RE: Orsolina's marriage, that's also another certificate I ordered from GRO, specifically to find out if he was listed as deceased in 1905. And now you've just given me that information :D Very useful, I wonder if it was common to list your father as deceased (if they were actually deceased)?

As for admittance records, oh well, certainly in no rush, I should still be breathing in a week or two! :)

Once again, thank you so much for your help  ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 25 May 18 11:55 BST (UK)
Quote
William Armstrong Battista, 13 - Sculcoates, Yorkshire-East Riding, inmate.
James Battista, 11 - Tynemouth, Northumberland, inmate.

I see that Giovanni's son, James Battista, was in fact on the training ship 'Wellesley' in 1911.

There is interesting information about this ship here http://blog.twmuseums.org.uk/the-training-ship-wellesley-at-north-shields-1868-1914/

The admission books for 'Wellesley are at Northumberland Archives reference number is NRO 07146/3/2.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 25 May 18 12:24 BST (UK)
RE: Orsolina's marriage, that's also another certificate I ordered from GRO, specifically to find out if he was listed as deceased in 1905. And now you've just given me that information :D Very useful, I wonder if it was common to list your father as deceased (if they were actually deceased)?

You need to be careful over this!

There have been very many threads on Rootschat about this very subject, and many examples of people thinking the father was alive, simply because the word deceased didn't occur on a marriage certificate. I myself spent aged searching for my g-g-g-grandfather's death after his son's wedding, because the word 'deceased' didn't occur on the marriage certificate. I later discovered that in fact g-g-g grandfather had died some 20 years before his sons marriage.

The fact is that the question 'is your father still alive?' wasn't always asked. If not asked, the information might not have been offered.

So, please treat the absence of the word 'deceased' with great caution.

Also, bear in mind the possibility that he might appear as 'deceased' on the 1910 certificate because he'd vanished from the scene and the family simply assumed he was dead  ::)


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 25 May 18 12:38 BST (UK)
RE: Orsolina's marriage, that's also another certificate I ordered from GRO, specifically to find out if he was listed as deceased in 1905. And now you've just given me that information :D Very useful, I wonder if it was common to list your father as deceased (if they were actually deceased)?

You need to be careful over this!

There have been very many threads on Rootschat about this very subject, and many examples of people thinking the father was alive, simply because the word deceased didn't occur on a marriage certificate. I myself spent aged searching for my g-g-g-grandfather's death after his son's wedding, because the word 'deceased' didn't occur on the marriage certificate. I later discovered that in fact g-g-g grandfather had died some 20 years before his sons marriage.

The fact is that the question 'is your father still alive?' wasn't always asked. If not asked, the information might not have been offered.

So, please treat the absence of the word 'deceased' with great caution.

Also, bear in mind the possibility that he might appear as 'deceased' on the 1910 certificate because he'd vanished from the scene and the family simply assumed he was dead  ::)

Yes, I figured that it's more of a clue than solid proof. I was hoping he was listed as deceased, that way it could potentially narrow the search down.

Yep, assumed dead same thing I suppose. Let's just hope that if he did die overseas, it was sometime during 1901-1910, otherwise, I fear I might never find a record.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 25 May 18 12:55 BST (UK)
I did manage to get back to 3 January 1907 in the workhouse records during my search today and unless, I have missed something I can't see any Battista's admitted.  This may mean that they were long term residents. 

Potentially, they may have been admitted any time after the death of their Mother I suppose.  I can see from other records that when children seem to have been admitted information is given about their parents - so if an admittance record is found it may well record what the situation was for the Father of the child admitted.

Battista, although I think you are doing very well so far with this research - albeit Giovanni is still not located, I do wonder if this post might be better placed on the Northumberland board because this is where most of the Battista story seems to be taking place.

It was actually Jen, who alerted me to this very interesting post.  If not for Jen, I think I would have most likely missed this as I don't usually check the England General section - in fact I didn't even know before this post that there was a general section for England.  Just a thought.  You never know, perhaps other RootsChatters based in the Northumberland or Durham areas may know more.  Mind, I don't know how to transfer over to another board - but perhaps someone else may know - that is if you decide to switch boards.

I will resume this search at the workhouse in a week or two, as soon as I can. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 25 May 18 13:02 BST (UK)
You never know, perhaps other RootsChatters based in the Northumberland or Durham areas may know more.  Mind, I don't know how to transfer over to another board - but perhaps someone else may know - that is if you decide to switch boards.

I agree it might be better on the Northumberland Board.  I have asked a Moderator to consider moving it  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 25 May 18 13:10 BST (UK)
I did manage to get back to 3 January 1907 in the workhouse records during my search today and unless, I have missed something I can't see any Battista's admitted.  This may mean that they were long term residents. 

Potentially, they may have been admitted any time after the death of their Mother I suppose.  I can see from other records that when children seem to have been admitted information is given about their parents - so if an admittance record is found it may well record what the situation was for the Father of the child admitted.

Battista, although I think you are doing very well so far with this research - albeit Giovanni is still not located, I do wonder if this post might be better placed on the Northumberland board because this is where most of the Battista story seems to be taking place.

It was actually Jen, who alerted me to this very interesting post.  If not for Jen, I think I would have most likely missed this as I don't usually check the England General section - in fact I didn't even know before this post that there was a general section for England.  Just a thought.  You never know, perhaps other RootsChatters based in the Northumberland or Durham areas may know more.  Mind, I don't know how to transfer over to another board - but perhaps someone else may know - that is if you decide to switch boards.

I will resume this search at the workhouse in a week or two, as soon as I can. :)

You never know, perhaps other RootsChatters based in the Northumberland or Durham areas may know more.  Mind, I don't know how to transfer over to another board - but perhaps someone else may know - that is if you decide to switch boards.

I agree it might be better on the Northumberland Board.  I have asked a Moderator to consider moving it  :)

Thank you RTL and Jen, I didn't know which one to put it in, so did the general. I would much prefer it to be in the Northumberland section if that's more visible.


Topic moved to Northumberland Board.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 25 May 18 14:16 BST (UK)
I think it would be more 'visible' In getting help potentially on the Northumberland board. :)

I made a note this morning of the appearance of the Battistas in the photos.

John G Battista page 166 - well built (plumper than seen in the page 232 photo.  Cap.Dark hair, short fringe, fastened jacket, short and tie.
Page 232 Cap, dark hair, olive looking complexion, longer fringe, jacket, white scarf crossed over.

Lily alias Battista - dark hair, glum expression; broad brimmed hat with very fancy ribboning; jacket with scarf underneath.'
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 29 May 18 13:17 BST (UK)
Hi Battista,

I will be posting several records but not sure if I will have time to send all today.  I may have to continue at some point on Thursday possibly.  Anyway here is a start ...  :)

Tynemouth Workhouse Admission:
Nov 7th 1901
Battista, Lily
Spinster
Religion: EC
age: 18
Township: North Shields
Informant: Self
Name and Address of Nearest Relative: Father Giovanni  9 Bird Street

Lily was discharged Nov 27 1901

Tynemouth Workhouse Admission
Battista, Lily
Saturday 28th Dec 1901
9.18 pm
Spinster:
Religion: EC
Age: 18
Township: North Shields
Informant: Self
Name and Address of Nearest Relative: Father John, gone to Newcastle  No Address

Tynemouth Workhouse Admission
Battista, Lily
July 17th, 1902
7.40 pm
Spinster daughter of Giovanni. Lab.
Age:19
Religion: EC
Township: No Shds
Informant: Self
Name and Address of Nearest Relative: Father Turpins Bank  N.S..

Lily was discharged on July 26th 1902

Tynemouth Workhouse Admission:
November 17th 1902
Battista, Elizabeth, 15
Battista, Antonio, 13  1/2
Battista, John G, 11  1/2
Battista, Vincent, 8
Battista, William, 5
Battista, James, 3
All admitted at 3.30 pm
All were their own 'Informant'
All RC in religion
Nearest relative: Sister Lily, Fish Quay, North Shields

Tynemouth Workhouse Admission
Sept 11, 1905
6.20 pm
Vincent Batista
Age 11
RC Religion
Name and address of nearest relative: Lily Spence, 8 Norfolk Street, North Shields

Vincent was discharged August 17th, 1905.  There are ditto marks under another entry above for 'Taken out by sister.'

Antonio 'Batista' age 14 was discharged on Jan 7th 1903 at 6.40.  It records he was 'Taken out by brother.'

John George Battista was discharged on May 6th 1904 at 10.25 a.m.  'Taken to Welsely (sic) Ship

Elizabeth 'Batista' was discharged on Aug 17th 1904 age 16.  She was taken out by 'W. Brabant'.

An archive staff member told me that a scan of any workhouse page would cost £10. 

I will stop now but will be posting more as I get time. :)

St Cuthbert RC baptism
Enricus Leo Battista
Son of Joanni & Annae Battista nee Finley
Born 10 September 1901
Bapt 25 Sept 1901
Godparent: Maria Sedgwick








Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 30 May 18 08:47 BST (UK)
I haven't as yet been able to find out what became of Giovanni unfortunately - do you have any further thoughts Battista - based on research found to date?

Here is another record I found from yesterday's research:

St Cuthbert RC baptism, North Shields
Antonia Battista
Born 7 Oct 1888
Bapt. 28 March 1901
Parents Giovanni and Elizabethae Battista
No maiden name or God parent name provided
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 30 May 18 08:52 BST (UK)
St Cuthbert RC baptism
Joanna Georgius Battista
Parents as above for Antonius
Just 1891 recorded for birthdays
Bapt. 28 March 1901
No Godparents recorded.
Note in margin for a marriage to Emma Anderson on 13 July 1911
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 30 May 18 08:56 BST (UK)
Excellent sleuthing RTL  :)


Tynemouth Workhouse Admission:
November 17th 1902
Battista, Elizabeth, 15
Battista, Antonio, 13  1/2
Battista, John G, 11  1/2
Battista, Vincent, 8
Battista, William, 5
Battista, James, 3
All admitted at 3.30 pm
All were their own 'Informant'
All RC in religion
Nearest relative: Sister Lily, Fish Quay, North Shields

Interesting that in this record there is no mention of either the mother or the father as being the nearest relative  :-\

From what you've found, the latest 'sighting' of Giovanni was in July 1902, living at Turpin's Bank in North Shields.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 30 May 18 08:56 BST (UK)
St Cuthbert RC baptism
Jacobus Battista
Born 18 August 1899
Bapt 6 Sept 1899
Son of Joannis & Elizabethae (Helene?) olim Lawson
Grandparents Donatus Alvini & Jane Reid
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 30 May 18 09:01 BST (UK)
What amazing work you've done RTL! For Lily Battista's record on July 17th, 1902, perhaps he was still alive in 1902 and still living in England.

"do you have any further thoughts Battista - based on research found to date?"

Hmm, apart from the above, not at the moment. Still processing what's been listed here already, I'm sure there's some new angle to look into with all of this info...

I've been looking at Italian records, a very kind and talented person who is interested in families from Cassino, Italy managed to find Giovanni's birth records, as well as both his parent's names and all his siblings'  birth records (2 of which I didn't know existed)!

His parents names are:
Antonio Battista (which you already found) from Capua, Italy.
Angela Pirollo from Cassino, Italy

He also found all four of his grandparents, I never thought I'd get back that far in my Italian line!

Turns out Giovanni was born in Cassino, not Rocca d'Arce.

Still trying to locate death records for Giovanni in Italy, so far can't find anything. But, I'm not experienced with looking through them, it has to be done manually, they're not transcribed online...


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 30 May 18 09:01 BST (UK)
Thank you Jen for the compliment! :)

If I were Battista, although I would not limit myself to this - I would be particularly focussing on 1902 given findings to date.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 30 May 18 09:04 BST (UK)
For Lily Battista's record on July 17th, 1902, perhaps he was still alive in 1902 and still living in England.

The record show he was living at Turpin's Bank, which was a street in North Shields.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 30 May 18 09:07 BST (UK)
Thank you also Battista for the compliment! :)

There is a lot to process now, that's true.
I have more to send but I am pushed for time right now so may not get chance to send til tomorrow. :)

My Great Grandfather's sister was in the workhouse hospital during same time as some of your ancestors.  Who knows, perhaps they may have met. :) I was also born in this building when it became a hospital and so was my son.  It has since been knocked down and housing is in its place.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 30 May 18 09:19 BST (UK)
For Lily Battista's record on July 17th, 1902, perhaps he was still alive in 1902 and still living in England.

The record show he was living at Turpin's Bank, which was a street in North Shields.

Just for the record I have pin-pointed Turpin's Bank on this old map https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/435876/568287/13/101249
(If a blue square appears on the map just click on the left-hand of the two blue squares top right of the page - as you put your cursor on it, it will say 'Switch Print Extent Off')

Turpins Bank was one of many banks and stairs which led up the steep slope from the Quayside into the town proper.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 30 May 18 09:41 BST (UK)
Thank you Jen for the compliment! :)

If I were Battista, although I would not limit myself to this - I would be particularly focussing on 1902 given findings to date.

Hmm yes, 1902 is the last seen date. Still in England too. If he died in England, why would there be no record of his death...

Thank you also Battista for the compliment! :)

There is a lot to process now, that's true.
I have more to send but I am pushed for time right now so may not get chance to send til tomorrow. :)

My Great Grandfather's sister was in the workhouse hospital during same time as some of your ancestors.  Who knows, perhaps they may have met. :) I was also born in this building when it became a hospital and so was my son.  It has since been knocked down and housing is in its place.

Ok, I look forward to further info! :)

Maybe they met! Interesting to think. Ah, so you have a bit of a family connection to the building :)

For Lily Battista's record on July 17th, 1902, perhaps he was still alive in 1902 and still living in England.

The record show he was living at Turpin's Bank, which was a street in North Shields.

Just for the record I have pin-pointed Turpin's Bank on this old map https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/435876/568287/13/101249
(If a blue square appears on the map just click on the left-hand of the two blue squares top right of the page - as you put your cursor on it, it will say 'Switch Print Extent Off')

Turpins Bank was one of many banks and stairs which led up the steep slope from the Quayside into the town proper.

It says I need to subscribe to see the map.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 30 May 18 10:02 BST (UK)
Christ Church, North Shields marriage:
Robert Guthrie & Orsolina Spence
December 26th 1918
His age 27
Her age 33
3 Norfolk Street for both
Bachelor & Widow
Fireman (R. N. (P. T. ?) )
Residence for both: 3 Norfolk Street
Fathers:
Giovanni Battista - Tailor (deceased)
Robert Guthrie - Fireman
Witnesses: G (?) Murray & Elizabeth Guthrie
All signed
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 30 May 18 10:19 BST (UK)
It says I need to subscribe to see the map.

Sorry, I forgot to add that if it says that then you need to click on the zoom out 'minus' button top left of the map. This will enable you, as a non subscriber, to see the map (I am not a subscriber either  :) )
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 30 May 18 11:06 BST (UK)
Next time I go to North Shields library I will look at an inquest booklet they have.  Although, I have no idea what dates are covered.  Apparently, staff put this together from a more fuller set of records which are kept at Woodhorn.

Also, see links below:

http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=6609

http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=10022
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 30 May 18 19:24 BST (UK)
Just to continue from where I left off ..

Marriage at St Cuthbert RC
John G Battista & Emma (Emmam) Anderson
13 July 1911
Fathers: Johan Battista & Joannis Anderson
Witnesses: John Samuel Anderson & Mary Lizzie Smith


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 30 May 18 19:30 BST (UK)
Another for your records, which I found yesterday ...

Marriage at St Cuthbert RC, North Shields
James Battista & Doreathea Playford
Both of 35 Duke Street, North Shields
Fathers: Joanni Battista & Joannis Jacobi Playford
Witnesses: Samuelo Johnson - 57 Churchway, & Agnete (Hare?) 3 Union Stairs.  There are some Latin words in left margin which are difficult to make out and I do not have a clue.  One word appears to be 'mixt'.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Wednesday 30 May 18 19:40 BST (UK)
Following this thread with interest, and it has to be said RTL, you've gone above and beyond.  It's not my thread, but thank you anyway!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 30 May 18 20:34 BST (UK)
Thank you for the compliment, Jomot. :)

That was an excellent suggestion of yours to revisit the workhouse lead, by the way.

This is a fascinating thread.  The Battista story took place on my home turf area so thankfully I am in a position to help with trying to solve this mystery.  I do hope we can smash this brick wall in the end.  I am certainly going to give it my best shot at this end.   I am not ready to throw in the towel quite yet ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 31 May 18 08:54 BST (UK)
Quote
William Armstrong Battista, 13 - Sculcoates, Yorkshire-East Riding, inmate.
James Battista, 11 - Tynemouth, Northumberland, inmate.

I see that Giovanni's son, James Battista, was in fact on the training ship 'Wellesley' in 1911.

There is interesting information about this ship here http://blog.twmuseums.org.uk/the-training-ship-wellesley-at-north-shields-1868-1914/

The admission books for 'Wellesley are at Northumberland Archives reference number is NRO 07146/3/2.

A Rootschatter who visits Northumberland Archives on a regular basis was kind enough yesterday to check on the Wellesley Admission Books, in the hope that there might be some family details relating to the two Battista boys who were admitted there.

Sadly she reports that she could find nothing at all relating to either boy  :(  Staff at the Archives confirm that they have had several people search in the books for boys who they know for certain were there but have found nothing in the records at all.

So, I'm afraid, another dead-end.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 31 May 18 10:40 BST (UK)
That's a shame, that no records could be found.  Although, this was very kind of this particular RootsChatter to try to find them.

Just to add Giovanni's name does not appear in the inquest list at North Shields library.

However, Battista you might like to have this memoriam for your ancestor John George.  It appeared in the Shields Daily News on 5 November 1924.  It is on microfilm at the library:

'BATTISTA. - In loving memory of our dear brother, John George Battista, 16th Batt. N. F., killed in action Nov. 5 1916.  Sleep on, dear brother, and take thy rest, They miss you most, who loved you best; forgotten by some he may be, forgotten by us he never shall be. - Remembered by his sister Lily, brother-in-law, Bob, also nephew Willis.'

What lovely words!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 31 May 18 15:42 BST (UK)
I have nipped back to the archives ..

Could this possibly be a good lead ... ? :)

Tynemouth Workhouse Admission
Wednesday October 9th 1912
3.30 p.m.
Battista, Elizabeth Ann
Religion EC
Age 24
'Spinster Mother
Father William a tailor'
Admitted from Tynemouth
No friends
Transferred from Bolton Union

&

Battista, John
age 5 mnths

Both discharged at 9.45 a.m.
January 30, 1913
On discharge Elizabeth was age 25 and John recorded as age 1.

Perhaps Battista, it might be worth checking to see if Bolton Workhouse records exist.  Could William be Giovanni?  Or could the record mean that baby John's father may have been called William and that he was a tailor.  It is a bit ambiguous.  I wonder why she was transferred from Bolton?  In the last workhouse record I found earlier this week for Elizabeth it records that she was taken out by a W. Brabant.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 June 18 10:56 BST (UK)
Strangely, just to note that I can't see any birth registration for Baby John Battista mentioned in the workhouse records. ???

Looking at futures deaths for Battista males there is only one that may fit birth period but this is for an Arthur Battista who had been born 2 May 1912.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 June 18 11:28 BST (UK)
Again, just continuing with records found earlier this week ..

There was a Tynemouth Union discharge May 26th 1910 for two boys - Vincent Battista & John Dixon both aged 16.  They were discharged at 1.35 and 1.38 respectively.  'To W Elliot.  11 Alexandra St.  Victoria (G?), Rowland Gill.'
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 June 18 11:34 BST (UK)
Another record found earlier ...

St Cuthbert RC baptism, North Shields
Orselina  Battista writing makes name look more like Orjelina
Born 22 Feb 1884
Bapt 9 March 1884
Parents Joannis & Elizabethae Battista no maiden name recorded
There is a male and female God parent but names are very difficult to make out.  Middle name of male is Stephanus.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 June 18 11:43 BST (UK)
Orselina Guthrie was buried at Preston Cemetery in 1959.  This cemetery is not too far from me (about 2 miles) so if you wish I can go along one day in the next two weeks (fitting in with work and other commitments)  to see if she has a grave stone and if Giovanni as her Father may be referred to on this.

Let me know, if you would like this checked Battista.

Also, husband Robert is also in the same photo album (twice) as Orselina at Tyne and Wear Archives - if this is of interest.

 

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Saturday 02 June 18 12:41 BST (UK)
Again, just continuing with records found earlier this week ..

There was a Tynemouth Union discharge May 26th 1910 for two boys - Vincent Battista & John Dixon both aged 16.  They were discharged at 1.35 and 1.38 respectively.  'To W Elliot.  11 Alexandra St.  Victoria (G?), Rowland Gill.'

What a tangled web this family is!

A free search on the 1911 census shows both Vincent Battista and a John Dixon living with an Elliott family in Chopwell Parish (Rowlands Gill was in Chopwell Parish at that time)

Victoria G? will be Victoria Garesfield. https://victoriagaresfield.weebly.com/history.html

Here's the very house  :D http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=26491744&sale=90141510&country=england
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 June 18 14:42 BST (UK)
Great house find Jen!  This looks like a lovely old house - just like something out of Beamish.  I wonder if W. Elliot may have had some connection to the family?  Or whether the boys were just taken in for another reason - such as work opportunity.

Giovanni had a big family and so probably quite a few descendants by now.  In my experience, I have found that some descendants know more than others about family affairs.  Hopefully, one day some other descendant who knows more about Giovanni's disappearance may see this post or one of the others posted by battista and they may make contact with answers.  Also, who knows what may be on the 1921 census :) Although, it is most likely Giovanni was dead by then, going off marriage entries of his children.

I wonder if Elizabeth and baby John are related to the family and not some other Battistas.  Recording suggests they came from Bolton workhouse.  These two seemed to have disappeared too.  Strange too, how baby John's birth does not appear to have been registered. ???

Hopefully, one day Battista may return to this thread and give an opinion once all this new information has been processed. :)





Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Saturday 02 June 18 14:48 BST (UK)
Great house find Jen!  This looks like a lovely old house - just like something out of Beamish.  I wonder if W. Elliot may have had some connection to the family?  Or whether the boys were just taken in for another reason - such as work opportunity.

I should think there was a good demand for people to work in the pit at that time. It probably gave the family a little bit extra income to have a couple of lodgers.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 June 18 14:59 BST (UK)
Yes, there would have been great demand for pit workers.  Especially, as I have found with my own ancestors that life expectancy wasn't long due to the hazards and health problems as an outcome of the job.

I wonder why W. Elliot decided to make the trip all the way to the Tynemouth Union for these boys when perhaps other boys situated closer could have been found?  I suppose we may never know the answer.  However, this thread certainly throws up a lot of questions. ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 June 18 15:15 BST (UK)
http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/article/11118?SearchType=AtoZ&SearchStart=B&Page=41

I have just noticed that Vincent is included in the 'hidden depths' collection at Durham archives.  This will mean that there will be some information held concerning him.

This is a great resource.  My own Great Grandfather is included in this collection.  He is referred to in a couple of letters.

It might be worth contacting this archives Battista or asking a RootsChatter who visits here to do a look up for this information.  This is not an easy brick wall - what brick walls ever are. ;). I would therefore seek to turn over every possible stone for any clues.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Saturday 02 June 18 15:37 BST (UK)
In the last workhouse record I found earlier this week for Elizabeth it records that she was taken out by a W. Brabant.

Are you positive it was a 'W'? The reason I ask is that in 1911 one of the officers at Tynemouth Workhouse was called Charles Lawrence Brabant, and his wife, also an officer, was Sarah Elizabeth Brabant. (Not that it's of any great significance to the search  ::) )
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 June 18 21:51 BST (UK)
Yes, it definitely looked like 'W.Brabant.' :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Gardenshed on Sunday 03 June 18 07:47 BST (UK)
Just to say I am enjoying reading this thread and am hugely impressed by what has been uncovered. I don’t have any connection with the family (though who knows, the way it’s tentacles are reaching out) but it is helping me understand a bit more about the people, times and places.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Sunday 03 June 18 09:23 BST (UK)
All this information, astounding what can be learnt. I hope to get a response addressing all this new info over the next few days, otherwise, it'll have to be a week from now. Going on a bit of a trip.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 03 June 18 13:11 BST (UK)
Gardenshed, it is nice to read your positive feedback, even though this is not my thread.  :) I have certainly enjoyed researching last week in an attempt to locate Giovanni!  The workhouse records are priceless in my opinion; a fascinating historical record of life in my area.

Sadly, these thick volumes are quite fragile now and when looking at these you have to be extremely careful with the spines of the volumes.  I can see a day at some point in the future when members of the public such as myself will no longer be able to access these due to fragility.  Then I expect it will be paid searches only to find out about workhouse ancestors. :-\

batista, I am very much looking forward to whatever you find out further in relation to information found to date - either in the next few days or when you return from your trip. :)

Also, I think it may be worth mentioning a record which I saw in these  paupers collection records at Tyne and Wear Archives. I have not known about this record before last week:
 
'Register of unclaimed bodies sent to the
College of Science'
Ref: PU.TY/2/11

The dates covered are between 26 February 1934 and the 1940s.  I did not request this record as this is likely out the time frame and most likely if Giovanni died here his body would have been claimed and registered.

However, the archives will only hold records handed in to them.  I wonder if such earlier volumes may have existed for much earlier periods?  Even so, I would think the people in such a register would be registered for death? 

This might be another possible avenue to research - contacting the College of Science.  If all other avenues fail, that is.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Sunday 03 June 18 15:55 BST (UK)

Sadly, these thick volumes are quite fragile now and when looking at these you have to be extremely careful with the spines of the volumes.  I can see a day at some point in the future when members of the public such as myself will no longer be able to access these due to fragility.

Any archives main remit should be to preserve these records AND enable the public to access the info about our history and heritage. Not much point in preserving if no one can ever learn about them.  Super though it is to actually see the originals, it must be damaging in the long term, no matter how careful people are.
Its shortsighted not to digitise their holdings, so that visitors can access the info in the future while still preserving the documents. 
Yes, I know archives - any archives, this is not aimed specifically at TWAS, are short staffed, probably underfunded and scanning is time consuming, but at least make a start, they must know which ones are regularly requested. I've been asking about this for years at various archives and usually get the response that 'we don't have time', well if they'd started 15 years ago, even at a few hours a week, they'd have a lot done by now. WHy not ask the LDS for copies of the records they have digitised to be used at the archives? I'd bet my boots they would agree.
The ones who 'have' digitised starting with the most accessed records like PRs, such as Seax where you can pay a fiver and spend the next 24 hours getting the records you want from the comfort of your own home get an income.
I'll happily pay a fiver, to firkle and download, but a £30 'research fee' from a lot of local archives, if I don't have the exact date and want just one record, is way outside my budget so I can't / don't give them any income - if the BMD record is post 1837 its cheaper to pay the GRO for a pdf copy than attempt to get a PR record.
Other than that I'll go to my local LDS FHC, if they have digitised the records I want I can get them for free or I make do with a transcription from Free Reg, Family Search, etc etc. Which is nice, but I WOULD support the regional archives centres if it were possible without a mortgage.

Apologies to Battista for taking your thread (which I have enjoyed reading and watching it develop) off topic with my mini rant.
I'm only little, and am getting a bit dizzy up on top of this soapbox, so I'll get down now :-)

Boo

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 03 June 18 18:30 BST (UK)
I totally agree.  Last week I did ask for one volume as I hoped to see exactly when a bloodline ancestor of mine (my Grandmother was admitted to the hospital) - she died 1937.  I was turned down on two counts, one reason I suppose understandably was I might see a name of someone who could potentially still be alive but also because the particular volume is too fragile now to be offered to a member of the public.  I suppose if I was that determined I could
pay £30 for a staff look up or a further £30 for each hour it takes. :o
I also wish these records could be digitised.  They are invaluable and not all of us including me can afford hefty search fees.  I think something should definitely be done as I do think one day, possibly in the next few years because of the fragility of the spines of the books these will no longer be available to the public.  This is my own view of what I think is likely to happen and not something which I have been told concerning all the volumes, I might add.

The pages are okay in these volumes it is the bindings which are fragile.  However, writing tends to be small and although readable now I think the writing will be subject to fading eventually.  I think this is another reason for preserving such treasures now.

I know there are 3 fantastic ladies who do a lot of weekly voluntary work transcribing records at the archives.  :) However, I think their hands are likely to be full already with the work they do in getting information transferred from microfilm onto typed up pages in binders.

When I asked how much a page would be to be scanned (just in case Battista wants proof sent of any record I mention) I was told £10.  This is still a lot of money when it is considered that each admission and discharge is on a separate page.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 07 June 18 08:45 BST (UK)
http://www.tynemouthworldwarone.org/database.html

Battista, I have noticed that your ancestors John George and Vincent are both commemorated on this local WW1 website.  It is sad to think that it turns out that Victor also lost his life in the war.   :-\
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 07 June 18 10:10 BST (UK)
http://www.tynemouthworldwarone.org/database.html

Battista, I have noticed that your ancestors John George and Vincent are both commemorated on this local WW1 website.  It is sad to think that it turns out that Victor also lost his life in the war.   :-\

I'll have to take a look at that when I get back.

There's 6 certs from GRO in my mail at home, not sure which ones. Am excited to see what is on them!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 09 June 18 10:24 BST (UK)
Battista, regarding, John George's photo (dated 1910)  in the criminal photos book at Tyne and Wear Archives - I have looked up the story behind this on microfilm.  To keep this brief John had taken some rope which did not belong to him and had asked a boy of 15 to help him carry it.  The boy was called Jacob Miller.

This may be an ancestor in my family tree as my Great Grandfather Simon Peter Conroy had a niece called Elizabeth Miller nee Watson.  Her son was Jacob Miller and he would have been around 15 at that time.  The family lived at Clifford's fort and in the middle of North Shields.

Your ancestor was convicted hence the photo which exists.  Jacob was discharged - so hence no photo for him.  Strange to think our ancestors may have possibly known each other.

Also, just to add I forgot to add the date of the marriage for James Battista & Dorothy Playford on an earlier post - it was 11 April 1922. (Post 110)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Saturday 09 June 18 12:06 BST (UK)
Battista, regarding, John George's photo (dated 1910)  in the criminal photos book at Tyne and Wear Archives - I have looked up the story behind this on microfilm.  To keep this brief John had taken some rope which did not belong to him and had asked a boy of 15 to help him carry it.  The boy was called Jacob Miller.

This may be an ancestor in my family tree as my Great Grandfather Simon Peter Conroy had a niece called Elizabeth Miller nee Watson.  Her son was Jacob Miller and he would have been around 15 at that time.  The family lived at Clifford's fort and in the middle of North Shields.

Your ancestor was convicted hence the photo which exists.  Jacob was discharged - so hence no photo for him.  Strange to think our ancestors may have possibly known each other.

Also, just to add I forgot to add the date of the marriage for James Battista & Dorothy Playford on an earlier post - it was 11 April 1922. (Post 110)

Thank you so much RTL!

I've just flown home in the last hour, so am very tired at the moment, will have to get to responding to all of this info in this thread soon!

I've received 7 certificates from GRO of the Battista family, some of them may hold some information useful to this brickwall. If not, there are other parts of the family they will shed light on.

Will get to scanning those and sharing them here over the next few days.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 14 June 18 10:26 BST (UK)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/illustratedchronicleww1/21265796373/in/photolist-ryjczR-y8GhsC-yGn7oE-qKVr5b-yaZCS8-rydyVf-zaiK9V-zmZ4Mc-ypbLnB-BpWRZH

Another possible nugget of information for your records.  Although, this would need to be looked into further -  I wonder if the photo of Frank Spence from North Shields described as wounded and a prisoner in 1916 might be Orselina's first husband?  The originals of the Illustrated Chronicle are kept at Newcastle library.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 15 June 18 09:13 BST (UK)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/illustratedchronicleww1/21265796373/in/photolist-ryjczR-y8GhsC-yGn7oE-qKVr5b-yaZCS8-rydyVf-zaiK9V-zmZ4Mc-ypbLnB-BpWRZH

Another possible nugget of information for your records.  Although, this would need to be looked into further -  I wonder if the photo of Frank Spence from North Shields described as wounded and a prisoner in 1916 might be Orselina's first husband?  The originals of the Illustrated Chronicle are kept at Newcastle library.

I suspect Frank died somewhere around 1918, Orselina remarried in 1918. I think this is probably him, but without any further info, I guess it'll be hard to verify. Thank you for the photo, whether it is him or not, at least I've got a photo :D

Received Anastasia's 1934 death certificate today. https://i.imgur.com/x5hmcDR.png

Listed as "widow of Giovanni Battista". J. Slavin (son in law) is the informant, that's the second record type to suggest that Anastasia was living with her daughter and son in law, and continued to live with her son in law after her daughter's death. Confusing, as both the daughter and mother have the same name.

First electoral record of Anastasia is in 1903, she's not living with Giovanni. It seems likely that Giovanni died between 1902-1903.

But where???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 15 June 18 09:41 BST (UK)
Yes, this is such a mystery.  I think Giovanni must have died in that period too.  However, he was not the subject of an inquest and he does not appear to be registered or buried here.  Very puzzling.

I think I could look over the newspapers whenever I get time and see if he might be mentioned somewhere.  I could also check Shields newspaper to see if it can be proved that this is Orselina's Frank.  I think I will have to look at microfilms as I am not sure but I don't think all issues are on-line.  This could be a long job as I will have to fit this in here and there with work and other commitments.  However, I  really hope you do get this brick wall solved.  I will definitely help you in anyway I can with the local resources I have available to me.  How did Giovanni manage to seemingly disappear into thin air.  Mind boggling! ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 15 June 18 09:53 BST (UK)
In the memoriam (5 November 1924 Shields Daily News) for John George, I have noticed Orselina/Lily mentions nephew Willis.  On freebmd I can't see a Willis Guthrie but there is a Willis Spence birth registered in Dewsbury in 1907. I wonder if there may have been some family link with Dewsbury or whether this baby is unconnected to Battistas.

See post 114 for memoriam
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 15 June 18 10:11 BST (UK)
Also, in the subject of photos Battista .. have you had a chance to look at the Tynemouth WW1 database link? (post 132). When you get to page for John George click on related documents and then on 'View' for the Shields Daily News.  You will then be able to view the picture of John George which was published by that newspaper.  (Not the best in quality admittedly - but the archives do hold two very good quality photos of him.)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 15 June 18 10:13 BST (UK)
In the memoriam (5 November 1924 Shields Daily News) for John George, I have noticed Orselina/Lily mentions nephew Willis.  On freebmd I can't see a Willis Guthrie but there is a Willis Spence birth registered in Dewsbury in 1907. I wonder if there may have been some family link with Dewsbury or whether this baby is unconnected to Battistas.

Willis Spence born Dewsbury, mother’s maiden surname was Mitchell (GRO website)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 15 June 18 10:20 BST (UK)
Oh well, no link there then.  Thanks Jen for finding out that this is a dead end avenue and doesn't need to be explored further.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Friday 15 June 18 11:46 BST (UK)
I'm beginning to wonder whether Giovanni is one of the 'unknown male' deaths, possibly in the Newcastle area where he is said to have gone on one of the earlier workhouse records (Dec 01).

It seems that Anastacia had made the move from Tynemouth to Newcastle some time between the birth of their son Henry Leo in Sep qtr 1901 (Tynemouth) and his death in Sep qtr 1902 (Newcastle).

Perhaps one or other of these certificates may reveal something new?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 15 June 18 12:26 BST (UK)
Good point Jomot.  Although, workhouse record for Orselina indicates he was living at Turpin's Bank in July 1902.

Giovanni was recorded as a travelling musician at one point.  It is possible he may have died somewhere but have been unidentifiable when found.

I have a bloodline ancestor who was found dead in the River Tyne - albeit he was found the next day and an inquest was held.  I also have another ancestor - a  trainee pilot who was washed out to sea and never seen again during a storm in 1902.  There were plenty of witnesses in that case.
Perhaps Giovanni may have had an accident of some sort but there may have been no witnesses and he may have been unidentifiable when found.  Unfortunate but I suppose it could be a possibility.

I do hope one of these certificates might reveal something new which might help.  Even if not, hopefully one day another descendant who may know the answer may see this post and may contact Battista to let he or she know what happened. 

This once happened to me - a brick wall which was virtually impossible to solve was solved by another descendant (previously unknown to me) getting in touch and revealing all big time.  So keep casting out that net Battista.  You just never know this puzzle may well get solved this side of heaven.  Hopefully. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 17 June 18 13:12 BST (UK)
This is just a post about something which a local studies member of staff said to me in conversation yesterday which might be something to consider.

In conversation, this staff member mentioned that if someone worked on a boat and died then the captain would register them at the next port they came to.

I wonder if Giovanni may have sought work on a boat on the Tyne sailing either from North Shields or Newcastle?  Perhaps he may have died on the boat and might be registered in a different country, for example Norway.  I would imagine at that time there would have been plenty of work in this area for anyone wishing to go to sea and various jobs available.

I don't know much about sea deaths concerning if there is a list somewhere of names.  Perhaps another RootsChatter may know.  I wonder if he did die at sea he may also have been buried at sea.

I saw a marriage record yesterday at a North Shields Church (1950s - in a volume) for someone whom I believe is a Grandson of Orselina.  Obviously, I won't post details for your records Battista as this person may still be alive.  However, I think it could well be possible that descendants of Giovanni may still be in this area.  (Although, I do not know this.). Another, descendant could well be the key to solve this puzzle for you - perhaps by word of mouth stories that have been passed down to them. 

As I think I have mentioned before, I once had a huge brick wall solved through an on-line appeal which was eventually spotted by another descendant.  And my brick wall was as seemingly as unsolvable as yours is - so don't give up hope. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: alpinecottage on Sunday 17 June 18 16:11 BST (UK)
I've been following this thread without being able to add anything constructive but it occurs to me that on a ?marriage certificate mentioned earlier in the thread, Giovanni was recoded as deceased.  This implies that the family knew he had died, as opposed to him merely having gone missing or having died but been found by away from home and having been recorded as unknown.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Sunday 17 June 18 16:28 BST (UK)
Giovanni was recoded as deceased.  This implies that the family knew he had died, as opposed to him merely having gone missing or having died but been found by away from home and having been recorded as unknown.
d

I think I’m right in saying that if a person was missing for more than 7 years they could be presumed dead even if there was no positive proof  :-\
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 18 June 18 10:20 BST (UK)
I was talking to someone on Saturday who told me of someone in their ancestry who declared their Father dead even though he wasn't.  This person was apparently underage and would have needed her Father's consent - which would not have been given.

I do suspect in Giovanni's case he was likely to be dead.  However, there is always the possibility that he may not have been.  As Jen says he might have just been presumed dead.  Or there could have been a family fall out due to abandonment and he may have become 'dead' in their eyes though still around somewhere.  He may have been in the run.  So many possibilities!  And no further on to solving this as yet! :-\
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 30 June 18 12:58 BST (UK)
I am just passing some information told to me by someone else -

There is a will on Ancestry apparently for a Giovanni Battista 1931.  Died at the Italian Hospital in London.  Widow was named as Camilla. 

This may not be the Giovanni who is being searched for.  However, it might be worth looking at as bigamy did happen.  I wouldn't rule anything out without further investigation.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Saturday 30 June 18 17:46 BST (UK)
Hi RTL

I'd already looked at that one and he's in London with wife Camilla in 1911, aged 40 & married 8 years, so presumably the Giovanni Battista who married Marta Camilla Brenta in 1903. 

I guess it's possible it could be the same person - the timescale certainly fits - but he'd need some excellent moisturiser to get away with claiming to be 40 when he would have really been 64 (but if it is him, I definitely need to know which brand ;D )
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 30 June 18 22:01 BST (UK)
Hi Jomot,

As mad as it might seem I still wouldn't rule this one out without further investigation.

My own Dad (now deceased) would have been able to pass for in his forties when in his sixties and his sixties when in his eighties if he had wanted to - maybe some people just have good genes.  Perhaps Giovanni had great genes. :)

I have not seen the will myself - I have been told it is in Italian.  However, in absence of any other Giovanni I do think this one might be worth investigating.  Bigamy might be a possibility.

Wouldn't it be great if this mystery could get solved!

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: barryd on Sunday 01 July 18 03:37 BST (UK)
From the Free Search on Durham Records Online,

Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1911
Elizabeth Ellen
Battista
abt 1909
39 Hedworth Street
 
Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1912
Anthony
Battista
abt 1889

 
Marriages
Newcastle
1919
William Armstrong
Battista
abt 1896
90 Molineux Street
 
Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1943
Ruth
Battista
abt 1943
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 01 July 18 13:38 BST (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794071.18

Although, Elizabeth Lawson is referred to as the first spouse on this thread I have noticed that on the register office marriage certificate on the above link Giovanni is referred to as a 'Widower' at time of marriage to Elizabeth.

This would make Elizabeth his second wife and Anastasia the third wife.

Battista, do you think there might be a possibility that Giovanni may have been the one who married in 1903 to Marta Camilla Brenta (possible fourth wife?) - not long after his last sighting recorded at Turpin's Bank, North Shields in July 1902? (Orselina's workhouse entry).

It would be interesting to see what Father's name is - if this took place in a Church and could be looked up possibly by a Roots Chatter - If it is Antonio perhaps this may indicate that this Giovanni might be this missing one.

I know there is a recorded age difference e.g. at time of death, but I think this may be worth consideration.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 31 July 18 18:21 BST (UK)
Hi, I have been reading this post with much interest as I am also a Battista descendant.  My GG Grandfather was Vincenzo Battista, Giovanni's brother.  I have already been in touch with the originator of this thread 'Battista' via Ancestry and am in the process of sharing what info I have.  I have also been in search of Giovanni's fate but do not have any information to add I'm afraid.. other than I have a copy of his eldest child Pasqualino's marriage banns from 1910 where he is recorded as deceased.  I would like to thank River Tyne Lass in particular, as well as Jen and all the other contributors.. it is AMAZING the effort you have gone to and to hear all of this info and discussion - it is really helping to bring my ancestors lives more into perspective. 

River Tyne Lass - I think we have actually met!  I visited T&W Archives drop in centre with my mother earlier this year to research Vincenzo and you and your colleagues were very helpful then :).

I know a lot about Vincenzo and he did very well for himself, becoming a well respected member of the community as well as having a strong trade in Confectionery, selling Ice Cream on the Quayside and having a shop in Gallowgate.  When he died over 300 people attended his funeral and his widow received a letter of condolence from the Italian Consultate thanking him for his efforts in helping the Italian immigrant community to settle and integrate.  In contrast it seems his brother did not fare so well.  I am intrigued as to why this was.. given the Italian strong sense of family and Vincenzo's obvious interest in community. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 01 August 18 08:18 BST (UK)
Hi Sophie,

You are welcome!  I am glad this research has been of interest.  We probably haven't met as I don't actually work at the archives.  I am just a very avid genealogist!
I have access to local resources at local libraries and Tyne and Wear Archives so I try to help RootsChatters out when my shift work permits.  I also do voluntary local war research when time permits.. 

By the way Sophie, did you see the wonderful photos of John George and Lily/Orselinawhen you were at the archives?  I would be over the moon to see such pictures of my ancestors.  In fact, one of my ancestors is in the album - Jacob Conroy.  I bought a copy of the latters photo.  Sadly he was killed in the Great War in 1915 four years after the photo was taken.

It is a shame the end story for Giovanni has not yet been uncovered but who knows, one day the answer may emerge.  I have found this story a fascinating one.  My son and I  were born at the hospital which was the former workhouse and which is now housing.  This was also the hospital of some of my ancestors and our local hospital for many years  so I am very familiar with what that building was like. 

Going on with the research I found that a Jacob Miller was also on trial with John George at one point.  Although, I will never know for definite I think he may well have been one of my ancestors. 
It was fascinating too to look through the old workhouse records.  I often came across the same people entering and leaving.  It definitely seemed a port of call during tough episodes for local people. 
I will view this as an 'open case' and if I do come across any more leads concerning Giovanni I will of course share these.
If I can ever be of further help, Sophie please let me know.  I am always happy to help others get answers using the local resources available to me.
Thank you for adding this story about Vincenzo and your own thoughts.  This certainly adds to the colour on this thread and gives human interest.  I must say, this Battista story is one of the most intriguing family history stories I have come across. 

Thank you again for adding your most interesting post on this thread Sophie:)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 01 August 18 10:26 BST (UK)
You are welcome too RTL :). I haven't actually seen the photos from the Criminal mugshots but I would love to..  can I ask, have the records been catalogued so you can search by name or is it a case of looking at each photo manually?  I will be in Newcastle on 14th August for a few days so am thinking of coming to have a look!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 01 August 18 11:15 BST (UK)
They have a police identification file and this will provide the names and page number.  The staff will help you.  You can then fill out a slip of paper to obtain the album which is fascinating.  The album is massive and comes in a huge box and this is a real treat to look through.  The photos are of very good quality and I am sure it will be a real treat to see your ancestors in this way.  (I know I was highly delighted to see my ancestor Jacob.)

There are two photos of John George and one of Orselina/Lily.  There will be one of her husband to be too who had the name of Robert Guthrie.  They were jointly involved in a crime and sentenced to hard labour.

If you take a camera I would recommend paying for a day photography pass (I can't remember exact charge but I think it is no more then £10 to - £16) - then you will be able to take photos of these photos and any other records which interest you.  However, you also have to sign a short form and agree not to pass on the photos to other parties as I remember it.

You will also be able to order the workhouse records!

The dates on the photos in the album are the dates people were convicted.  The only bad thing about visiting the archives is that time goes too quickly when you are there - a whole day can seem like only half an hour. ;D

I would also recommend a visit to the North Shields library, local studies department and you will be able to see the Shields Daily News on microfilm which recorded many of the trials, including those of these ancestors of yours (as well as some of my ancestors who appeared in court cases).  This library also has some of your ancestors burial records - however you will also be able to see these at the archives.  In the city centre of Newcastle is the library where you can view your ancestors death notices (and some burials).  Check the times - but on some evenings the library is open until 7 pm.

I know it will be hard to fit everything in in but this is just to let you know what is avaiable.  It will be very easy for you to access the criminal mugshots album - the staff are very helpful.

I hope you have a brilliant time!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 01 August 18 11:36 BST (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794071.18

Although, Elizabeth Lawson is referred to as the first spouse on this thread I have noticed that on the register office marriage certificate on the above link Giovanni is referred to as a 'Widower' at time of marriage to Elizabeth.

This would make Elizabeth his second wife and Anastasia the third wife.

Battista, do you think there might be a possibility that Giovanni may have been the one who married in 1903 to Marta Camilla Brenta (possible fourth wife?) - not long after his last sighting recorded at Turpin's Bank, North Shields in July 1902? (Orselina's workhouse entry).

It would be interesting to see what Father's name is - if this took place in a Church and could be looked up possibly by a Roots Chatter - If it is Antonio perhaps this may indicate that this Giovanni might be this missing one.

I know there is a recorded age difference e.g. at time of death, but I think this may be worth consideration.

I don't think so, but it's always possible. The Giovanni married to Marta was born in 1870 according to his gravestone and 1911 census. That would make a 25 year age difference between the two, surely he couldn't pass that off.

Gravestone: https://i.imgur.com/A81j6nB.jpg

An ancestry tree claims the father's name was Raffaele (they seem to know a lot about this family, uploaded many pictures and sources). This Giovanni also claims to come from Naples, not Cassino. He might be the guy travelling from the US and back a few times mentioned earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 01 August 18 11:39 BST (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794071.18
Although, Elizabeth Lawson is referred to as the first spouse on this thread I have noticed that on the register office marriage certificate on the above link Giovanni is referred to as a 'Widower' at time of marriage to Elizabeth.

This would make Elizabeth his second wife and Anastasia the third wife.

Their marriage certificate is here: https://i.imgur.com/R7ultSe.jpg

Yes, he's listed as a widower. I believe he was married in Italy, potentially had children there as well. That would explain why he was a bit old for his first marriage. I'm trying to locate those records, haven't got around to it just yet.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 01 August 18 20:58 BST (UK)
They have a police identification file and this will provide the names and page number.  The staff will help you.  You can then fill out a slip of paper to obtain the album which is fascinating.  The album is massive and comes in a huge box and this is a real treat to look through.  The photos are of very good quality and I am sure it will be a real treat to see your ancestors in this way.  (I know I was highly delighted to see my ancestor Jacob.)

There are two photos of John George and one of Orselina/Lily.  There will be one of her husband to be too who had the name of Robert Guthrie.  They were jointly involved in a crime and sentenced to hard labour.

If you take a camera I would recommend paying for a day photography pass (I can't remember exact charge but I think it is no more then £10 to - £16) - then you will be able to take photos of these photos and any other records which interest you.  However, you also have to sign a short form and agree not to pass on the photos to other parties as I remember it.

You will also be able to order the workhouse records!

The dates on the photos in the album are the dates people were convicted.  The only bad thing about visiting the archives is that time goes too quickly when you are there - a whole day can seem like only half an hour. ;D

I would also recommend a visit to the North Shields library, local studies department and you will be able to see the Shields Daily News on microfilm which recorded many of the trials, including those of these ancestors of yours (as well as some of my ancestors who appeared in court cases).  This library also has some of your ancestors burial records - however you will also be able to see these at the archives.  In the city centre of Newcastle is the library where you can view your ancestors death notices (and some burials).  Check the times - but on some evenings the library is open until 7 pm.

I know it will be hard to fit everything in in but this is just to let you know what is avaiable.  It will be very easy for you to access the criminal mugshots album - the staff are very helpful.

I hope you have a brilliant time!


Thanks again RTL - I am indeed looking forward to my visit!  I did have one other query you may actually know the answer to.. where would I find newspaper back copies for 1900?  I have searched the britishnewspaperarchives.co.uk and what is available on Ancestry and Findmypast, but they don't seem to have been digitised that far back for the Newcastle titles.  Would these be held in the T&W Archives or the main city Library?  I'd love to see if there was an article written about my GG Grandfathers funeral.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 02 August 18 09:19 BST (UK)
Hi Sophie,

Yes, you are correct - not all copies are digitised yet.  The Newcastle City library holds the newspapers in the Local Studies department on the 6th floor - there is a lift and a staircase - you can choose how to get up there. :)

The back copies of the Newcastle Evening Chronicle and the Journal are stored on microfilm for anyone to view and are kept in a filing cabinet next to the microfilm readers.

There are other Newcastle newspapers too and these are stored in huge tomes and kept out the back.  You have to sign a slip of paper with your name and address and staff will bring these out for you.  The staff will be able to let you know the whole list they hold.  I would bring some ID just in case they require this.  I have my own library card already so I have never been asked for further ID.

However, I think that if there is a write up about your ancestor Vincenzo you are most likely to find it in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle or the Newcastle Journal both on the microfilms.

The burial entries are also kept on microfilm.  I think he would most likely have been buried at Elswick.  As he was such a notable figure I wonder if he may have a grave stone?  If you had time when you come to Newcastle you might want to look around the relevant section. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 02 August 18 10:44 BST (UK)
Fantastic info thank you!  I was thinking it would likely be the Evening Chronicle as this is where the death notice was printed.  He is indeed buried in Elswick and I have his burial record so know where to find him. The service was held at St Mary's so should have been quite high profile. I'd like to think there is a stone but it is in unconsecrated ground so perhaps not :(. Hopefully I will find a bit more during my visit and if I do, I will be sure to update you. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 02 August 18 12:09 BST (UK)
You are welcome Sophie.  Please do let us know if you do manage to find an article about your ancestor when you visit the library.  I hope you are possibly able to find a gravestone too.

Just to speed things up when you arrive at the Archives looking for the criminal mugshots album I have found some references for you.  I am sure you will have a lot of things to cover in the short time you are here so I am hoping this will give you a head start. :)  I would also bring some ID just in case they ask for this.  I have asked the staff about a day photography pass and I have been told this is £10.  You can always look at the photos first before you decide to go ahead with buying the day photography pass. 

The reference you will need to get the album is:

DX1388/1

In the huge album -

John George Battista is on Page 166 - date 30.1.10 & also on Page 232 - date 9.6.13
John looks like he has lost a little weight in the second photo and has a longer fringe but I believe he is the same man.

Lily Spence @ Battista is on Page 190 - date 22.3.12
Robert Guthrie is on Page 212 - date is also 22.3.12

Note there is another Robert Guthrie on Page 133 - date 23.7.08 - however, I am not at all sure this is the same man.
The Shields Daily News paper at North Shields library, local studies department may be able to give some clues.  This newspaper is at the North Shields library.  It is a while back since I looked at the write ups but as I recall the 'crime' by Lily and Robert jointly (conviction date 22.3.12) was for receiving stolen goods.

 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 02 August 18 13:53 BST (UK)
Sophie, I don't know whether this might be possible during your short time in the North East but I have thought of another possible avenue of research which might possibly help battista with the search for finding out what became of Giovanni. 

Giovanni's son drowned in 1911 as already mentioned previously on this thread.  Sometimes if someone died tragically there was a gravestone erected for them. Also, as you are probably aware sometimes grave stones can have references to other family members along the lines of .. 'In Memory of ..

I have found out that Anthony Battista was buried in Mere Knolls Cemetery.  This is just off the Seafront at the lovely coastal area of Seaburn.

This is Anthony's entry which shows which section he is in:

Entry No: 3237
Anthony Battista
Ship's Watchman
(23?) years
drowned in River Wear
Buried Jan 7
Ceremony by Father Rust
Ward 27
Section A Grave 6909
Depth of grave 7ft
Parish removed from: Monkwearmouth

You likely won't have time to go here as well.  However, I mention this just in case you do.  If there is a gravestone and if his Father Giovanni is referred to on this it could help close this mystery. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 02 August 18 15:56 BST (UK)
Sophie since I am in Newcastle today and to try to save you some time I have checked the Evening Chronicle for your ancestor Vincenzo who I presume is the one who died in 1900 - I have noticed that I have previously found his death notice earlier on this thread.  Unless, I have missed something I can't see a mention for him apart from his two death notices on the 5th and 6th January.  I searched up to the Wednesday of the following week.

Unfortunately also, I have discovered that this one Journal microfilm which might cover something has been withdrawn due to bad condition.

There are other newspapers out the back so it might still be worth you ordering these out.  Of course, you could re-check in the paper I have had time to look at but I don't think I have missed him.

For what it's worth I also looked at a paper called the Newcastle Weekly Chronicle without success (apart from death notice in the Saturday 13 January 1900 edition on front page).  However, I noticed this newspaper had a Missing Friends and  Persons Wanted columns for people to try to find missing or lost touch family, friends and others.  Perhaps Giovanni going missing then is not so unusual after all.  Perhaps it might be worthwhile if you get time to look through these notices to see if one may have been placed for Giovanni.

This is an example in the January 20 1900 edition:

'Sarah Ann Geary wishes to hear from her brother, Robert Henry Geary, who left London 12 years ago; last heard of when in Cincinnati, U.S. Address:35 Hiberian Road, Jarrow-on-Tyne'

You could still have some luck in locating a grave stone though.  I have ancestors in unconsecrated graves and some have gravestones.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 04 August 18 10:34 BST (UK)
Someone has just pointed out to me a possible lead ..

Findmypast shows a death for a John Baptist in 1918 in Chester le Street (birth year around 1846).  Perhaps this could be a name variation.  It does seem feasible that even if Giovanni/John left the family for whatever reason - if still living he may have still have opted to live relatively in close distance.  The Chester le Street registration district is not far apart from Newcastle.

There is another one for a John Baptist death in Glendale in 1919 birth year 1847.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 20 September 18 10:31 BST (UK)
Hi battista,

It has been a while since we heard from you and I was wondering if you did get any further with finding out what became of Giovanni?

Incidentally, I know you live far away but if ever one day you ever get to visit the North East you may like to visit the Memorial Garden at the Linskill Centre in North Shields.  Your ancestors John George and Vincent - sons of Giovanni and Elizabeth - are both named on the Memorial boards in the garden.  I am going to attach photos for you to see.  I asked if it was alright for me to post these photos on here when one day when I was at the Linskill and was told it was okay.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 20 September 18 10:34 BST (UK)
Here is the one for Vincent - address should be Norfolk Street - but it seems I missed part of the writing off the photo.

To see more photos of the Memorial Garden click on this link below and scroll down.  This is my thread about the poppy displays for the Armistice in November.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=797595.9
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 20 September 18 10:55 BST (UK)
Incidentally, regarding your ancestors who were onboard the Wellesley - there is a fascinating book called 'Tough Times & Violent Crimes' by Nigel Green.   This has some really good accounts on happenings in Northumberland and Durham and has lots of photos.  On pages 72-72 there is some really good information on the Wellesley and life onboard for the young boys.  There are also several good photos showing the moored ship in the Tyne and also of the young lads on board.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 20 September 18 12:14 BST (UK)
Thanks again RTL, those photos are fantastic and I will certainly check out 'Tough Times & Violent Crimes'.

As for Giovanni's death, nothing has turned up so far. No failed leads to report, as unfortunately I haven't been able to find anymore.

I sent a letter to the General Register Office yesterday to provide me with a certified letter of no record for Giovanni's death. Waiting on a response. Perhaps they'll find something, if not, at least I have a letter showing I tried :)

I have yet to look in the Italian records. Unfortunately it's not indexed yet, so a manual search through the Italian books will be required. Additionally, I can't access the records without going to a LDS affiliate library. I went to one a few months ago, however, I gave up after waiting 30 minutes for the pages to load.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 21 September 18 10:39 BST (UK)
Hi battista,

Thanks for giving us all this update.  I didn't know that - that you can pay the GRO to search for the death certificate of a missing ancestor and if they can't find one to provide a certified letter of no record.  I do hope they can find him or that one day you may locate him back in Italy.

Whatever, it is true that you have done and are doing everything in your power to find him.

There is another really good book about the Wellesley which I have just come across at the library:

'The Tyne Training Ship Wellesley Remembered' by Brian Godfrey.  This looks really informative about the history of this ship and the routines of life on board (everything including things such as the timetabled routine of the day and the menu of plain food provided) and there are plentiful photographs too.  It appears That the boys had to be up at 6 am and then were given a very structured day of activities and schooling until bedtime at 9 pm.

That book that I mentioned yesterday is quite heartbreaking in parts when you see the photos of the young children who perhaps stole out of desperation and were sent off to be birched ..   :'(   

There is one photo of a boy who purportedly had been told by his Mother to steal something.  Apparently he had burst into tears on being charged.  There are photos of both in the book.  He looks so young and his Mother looks much older than her years, perhaps due to a very hard life - more like his elderly Grandmother.  He looks so young and she looks so frightened as she looks towards the camera.  Poor woman .. she looks as though she is not physically strong and yet was sent off to do hard labour.  By the look of her I would be very surprised if she survived this.  The poor boy was given a good birching. I suppose those were the tough times then.  When individuals committed acts of desperation I think because there was so much of this situation it was perhaps easier to punish people for their extreme poverty rather than to help them.  Sorry, I have gone a bit off topic here of Giovanni .. it is just I have found myself so moved by the plight of the poor children in the book who were subject to such cruel punishment .. truly heartbreaking  .. I wish I could reach back in time and rescue them  all. :'(

I do wish you the best with this search, as I am sure many others do.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 21 September 18 11:07 BST (UK)
Oh my goodness battista!! :o  On page 29 of the Wellesley book I have mentioned today by Brian Godfrey I have just discovered that there is a letter which specifically mentions your ancestor (John George) Private Battista.  It is from another soldier and he reports back with regret regarding the death of this ancestor of yours.  His date of death is given so that is how I know for certain that he is your ancestor.

There is also a photo of a Wellesley poster with photos of ex Wellesley boys with the caption 'Wellesley Honours War'.  The names are tiny under the photos and I can't make these out but there could be a possibility that John George may be one of these photos.  Perhaps you might be able to look further into this.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 28 September 18 12:52 BST (UK)
You can sometimes get them to provide a "letter of no trace" for a record, however, it depends on the person who ends up seeing your request. Unfortunately, my request was rejected, however they simply said to order the certificate despite the fact that it doesn't request and they'll send an email I presume stating they don't have it. Not really what I was looking for, but oh well.

Newcastle Registrars months ago said I should contact TW Archives, I did a few days ago. Got a response today, among the information provided, this was in the email:

"I have recently undertaken research for details of John G Batista through a Police identification book, North Shields, 1902 – 1916 held here ref no DX1388/1.  I located two mugshots, one dated1910, the other 1913.  If this is related to your research and you require a copy of these images we could forward medium resolution jpegs to you at a cost of £14.00."

Must have been Sophie :)

I will certainly check out those books, very exciting to find a letter mentioning JG Battista!

I wonder if I should pay for an hour or so of research at TW Archives to try and find a record of his death. With all the effort that's already been done, I'm not sure if it'd be worth it.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 29 September 18 10:13 BST (UK)
Thanks for the update battista.  I agree with your comment regarding .. 'it depends on the person who ends up seeing your post.'

Yes, I imagine this may have been Sophie who requested the photos of John G Battista.  I think she was going to do this after I posted the information on here.

I am not sure if it would be worth it to pay for research at the archives either.  I don't know if you would have to give them specifics of where you would like to them to search.  A full-out search would likely take more than just two hours and even if they searched every cemetery in the area over a dozen years - the mind boggles at how much this might cost! :o - there still may be nothing found.  There just does not seem to be a death registration where we can think - yes! that looks like it this is him.  It is still very much a mystery what happened to him. ???  I suppose you could enquire by email at the archives - just in case a professional with a 'fresh pair of eyes' may be able to suggest something new regarding research which we may not have thought of.  Archivists there with many years experience may be able to advise if professional research would be worth undertaking or not.

Could it be a case of desertion?  Did he go back to Italy?  Could he have gone off to look for work somewhere and died away from home?  He might have been one of the unidentified dead some place.  Also, I suppose there may be a tiny possibility he may have changed his surname slightly to a more Anglicized one. So many possibilities.  All we know from a workhouse for Orselina is that he seems to have been alive and at Turpin's Bank (North Shields) on 17 July 1902.

battista, have you considered chasing up the Italian death records again, just in case he may have returned.  Perhaps, he may have gone home for work with the intention of getting his family back over to Italy but then died before this could happen.  It was fascinating to look through the workhouse records.  I get the impression from these that sometimes people may have gone in to lessen the number of mouths to feed.  People sometimes seemed to just go in for short spells and then be taken out again by a family member such as a Mother, or husband perhaps when financial circumstances improved.

I think one thing to consider is that Giovanni may have been dead when most of his children were admitted to the workhouse on 17 November 1902.

When I next get a chance to go to the Newcastle Library I could look up Vincenzo's (brother) burial record if you like to see if there may be any suggestion that he may have had a grave stone.  If he had one perhaps Giovanni might be named on this (In Memory Of) and a death recorded.

Yes, this is quite something that the letter recorded in the book I mentioned concerns the war death of John George.   I wonder where this author found this letter - it must still exist somewhere in the original.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Saturday 29 September 18 10:19 BST (UK)
Yes, I do need to go back and look at the Italian death records. Just a bit hard to do manually, I'm very slow to read the names in handwriting. One free weekend I'll certainly give it a crack.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 05 October 18 13:20 BST (UK)
Hi Battista, RTL et al.. so sorry I haven't kept up with this thread, I wasn't aware of your posts until today when I logged in.  Some more amazing leads RTL - it is so great to get into the history as it really helps you to understand these people and the world they lived in and I agree, it can be incredibly moving.

I didn't make it to Newcastle but did indeed request and receive the photos of Lily and John George from the Archives - they are amazing.  They ironed out a case of mistaken identity for John George and I think the family resemblance between the two is clear.

I am very interested in the books you mention - fantastic to come across the letter!  I will be looking into getting some copies :)

I recently watched a Who do you Think You Are episode featuring Twiggy - her ancestors were resident in London workhouses and the information they gleaned from the records of the children regarding their parents was very detailed... Battista, as RTL suggested earlier in the thread, I think this would definitely be worth paying the Tyne & Wear archives to look into for you.  Either the Tynemouth Workhouse or the Industrial ship records, particularly for the youngest of Giovanni's children William and James.

My take on the mystery so far is that Giovanni has for some reason deserted second wife Anastasia and his children.  Anastasia having no children by Giovanni (there only son Leo dying as a baby) and no bond with her step children, has actually gone back to her first husband.  Then sadly, the children have ended up in various institutions.  I think it is a common story for the time.. but it still puzzles me as to why Giovanni doesn't seem to have kept up with his brothers Vincenzo and Antonio and that they don't appear to have supported him at all.  I have a number of photographs of some of the three brothers children together (male cousins including my Gt Gf Antonio, John George & Vincent) so the families must have remained in touch and even close.

I think the workhouse records would show why Giovanni was not capable of supporting his children - he would have been liable to provide for his children, if able and it it would have been an offence if he did not.  If he was not able then there ought to be a record as to why he was not able, e.g. having died, having been imprisoned etc.

Regarding my GGt Gf Vincenzo's funeral, the library could not find any article which is a real shame - perhaps it was not the done thing to write about immigrants in such a positive light at that time?  Also RTL thank you for your kind offer of checking his burial record re headstone... I did this on my last visit to the archives and there is nothing but a grave reference.  He was buried in un-consecrated ground, section T, Grave 85.  He did not own the plot as he is buried with another man, William Tait, who I do not believe he is related to.  Incidentally the neighbouring grave no.86 his youngest son Nicola buried in it who died 2 months after he did.  So sad :((   We weren't able to actually visit Elswick to find him... maybe you are familiar with the cemetery and whether that area has any old stones? 

I feel positive we will get to the bottom of this mystery one day! ;)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 05 October 18 14:01 BST (UK)
I think this would definitely be worth paying the Tyne & Wear archives to look into for you.  Either the Tynemouth Workhouse or the Industrial ship records, particularly for the youngest of Giovanni's children William and James.

Hi Sophie  :) the records for the training ship 'Wellesley' are held at Northumberland Archives and were checked back in May by another Rootschatter see reply #113 which I have also quoted below.

There was no mention at all of the Battista boys in the records.

Quote
William Armstrong Battista, 13 - Sculcoates, Yorkshire-East Riding, inmate.
James Battista, 11 - Tynemouth, Northumberland, inmate.

I see that Giovanni's son, James Battista, was in fact on the training ship 'Wellesley' in 1911.

There is interesting information about this ship here http://blog.twmuseums.org.uk/the-training-ship-wellesley-at-north-shields-1868-1914/

The admission books for 'Wellesley are at Northumberland Archives reference number is NRO 07146/3/2.

A Rootschatter who visits Northumberland Archives on a regular basis was kind enough yesterday to check on the Wellesley Admission Books, in the hope that there might be some family details relating to the two Battista boys who were admitted there.

Sadly she reports that she could find nothing at all relating to either boy  :(  Staff at the Archives confirm that they have had several people search in the books for boys who they know for certain were there but have found nothing in the records at all.

So, I'm afraid, another dead-end.


Also (and I'm happy to be corrected  :) ) I think RTL has done a thorough search of all the available workhouse records and has recorded all her various findings on this thread.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 05 October 18 14:15 BST (UK)
What a wonderful response Sophie!  I am glad you have been able to obtain the photos.  I agree they are wonderful.  I also got one of my ancestor Jacob Conroy from the same album a good while back.  Makes you almost glad they got themselves into a bit of bother, almost. (Did I really say that ;D)

I know the two photos look a bit different for John George, he has a fringe I remember in one and was a bit heavier built in one photo.  But when you look closely at the face, especially the nose I believe it is the same man.  And how many John George Battista's would you be likely to come across.  The photo of Orselina (Lily) in her lovely hat is fantastic too.

I am not sure if Tyne and Wear Archives may be able to help any further in our quest to find Giovanni.  However, I suppose if an enquiry was made giving them info to date they may be able to let you know if they might realistically be able to explore any other avenues.  Just an enquiry would be free and then it could be said that another box has been ticked if they come back and say it would be doubtful that they would be able to find him following on from all the research done already.  I suppose they are the experts and may have an idea we have not already thought of.  I once came across a baptism of an ancestor which said that my ancestors were from Lock Gilley in Ireland.  I happened to be at Northumberland Archives at the time and spoke to the staff about this.  They looked into this for me and no such place. :-\  However, they then went on to explain that there was a Loughgilley which is pronounced as Lock Gilley.  This is just an example of how archives staff may be able to come up with things we have not thought of.

I am still willing to help at the archives so if the staff or anyone else can think of something that has not be considered by any of us and is a good lead let me know and I will look it up for free. :)

Yes, regarding the book I mentioned about the Wellesley I was amazed to find after I had made a post on here, to turn the pages and come across a letter from a fellow soldier sadly reporting back on the death of John George.  Quite a case of serendipity that I should chance upon such a letter.  Almost like it was meant to be.  If this was my ancestor I think I would be sending a letter to the author care of the publisher to ask where he had come across this letter.  It must still be in existence somewhere.

Actually I was going to post about Vincenzo's burial.  I did look for this recently.  You will have seen the entry and noticed that the writing is a bit fancy.  I thought the section looked like a 'J' but I could be wrong and it could be a T.  The writing looks a bit fancified it is hard to say but I did think it looked like a J.  You will have also seen that the entry 33993 also records his address as 'Stowell Street'.  This is now part of Chinatown in Newcastle with various good shops and restaurants.  I think from the burial record and the cost that was paid for the grave which seemed about average he is unfortunately unlikely to have a grave stone.

I think it seems as if Anastasia may have gone to her family rather than her previous husband as he had died in Morpeth in the Sanatorium if I recall correctly.  I have no doubt that times were hard for large families living in North Shields (or indeed anywhere).  I got the impression when going through the workhouse records that individuals probably went in from time to time to lessen the load of number of mouths to feed. 

I think the date in 1902 when most of Giovanni's children went into the workhouse is probably the time frame to focus on most when carrying on this search.  I think this is quite likely to have been the time when he died or left, perhaps to look for work.  Whatever, the case must have been quite desperate as people lived with privation in the workhouse and this could weaken some of the most vulnerable and lead to their death.  I read a book about workhouses a while back.  Apparently, Whitehall had rules which they laid down regarding how much people were given to eat.  People were meant to have a set portion according to their sex, age etc.  Food was often poor and limited in choice.  However, in this book, the title escapes me at the moment, it is written that officials were once sent to the Tynemouth Workhouse when 'horror of horrors' it had become known that they were not as stringent as they were apparently meant to be. ;D

I can understand if Giovanni felt he could not turn to his brothers if he needed help.  Perhaps this may have been because he didn't want to be a burden on them.  I think it was really a case of survival then and perhaps if he had sought help from family they may have all ended up in the workhouse, including your ancestors too, Sophie. 

I hope this mystery does get solved one day - what a party we will all have when hopefully that day arrives! :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 05 October 18 14:22 BST (UK)
Hi Jen,

I have just seen your post after the time when I managed to get my long one posted. ;D

Yes, I made a thorough search of the workhouse records that are available to the general public.  There are restrictions to access to those with less than the 100 year mark.  I have been told that this is because you may come across a record for someone who is still living.

I once researched for my Grandmother's death record and found this at this place - Preston Hospital/Tynemouth Workhouse.  This confirmed her cause of death and other details.  However, when I tried to access the record of her actually going into the workhouse hospital I was politely turned down.  They told me I could pay for them to look it up but I would not be allowed access myself in case I also saw a record of a still living person.  Understandable I suppose. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 05 October 18 16:15 BST (UK)
Hi Jen - apologies, there is so much information and I am forgetting what has indeed already been posted.  Thanks for all your input and clarification.  Perhaps something will be made accessible in the future re the workhouses/industrial ship.

RTL - thanks for your continued support.. I've got my thinking cap back on about other possible leads :). I have visited Stowell Street, which is still quite original in places isn't it?  We ate in a restaurant more or less at no.15.  Vincenzo's wife Mary Jane was born and bred in Stowell Street, as were all of their children including my Gt Gf.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 05 October 18 16:37 BST (UK)
I have looked again at the book which has the letter about relating the death of  'Private Battista ' (John George) who died on November 6th.  It was written by another 'Private' who had received the Military Medal.

W. A.  Battista is also referenced on page 42 in the long lists of boys who had served in particular vessels.  Apparently, this ancestor of yours served in HMS Russell which it seems was later sunk.

Here is a link about this ship, I believe.

http://www.the-weatherings.co.uk/pccship0124.htm

Plus here is a link for a message board for those who may wish to ask questions.

https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/battleships/hms_russell_message_board.htm

I must say, this book by Brian Godfrey is an excellent source of information about the Wellesley - definitely a go to book for anyone who has ancestors with Wellesley connections.  Loads of great photos too.

This is the publisher of anyone wants the book.  It may also be available at some libraries.

https://www.summerhillbooks.co.uk

Click on North Tyneside on the website and scroll down.

That is great that you managed to visit Stowell Street once Sophie and more or less eat out at the place where your ancestors once lived. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 05 October 18 17:17 BST (UK)
Interesting about William.. he survived the war and went on to marry and have a family.  So did James I believe.  I'm going to keep on trawling through the info I have on these children.. there has to be another cousin somewhere who could shed some light  ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 05 October 18 21:21 BST (UK)
Yes, according to the book William left the ship in 1913 - fortunately a few years prior to this being sunk.

I think that would be an excellent idea to try to find some 'cousin's who may know more.

When I once had a brick wall similar to this it was one of those long lost cousins who I did not know and who did not know me who was eventually the means of bricking that brick wall down. :D

Surely some 'cousin' may know something regarding Giovanni.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 06 October 18 20:17 BST (UK)

Also as a note, I have read over the marriage record for Giovanna and Anastasia for yesterday and it should read that one of the witnesses was William Bell.  Sorry, I got distracted by trying to get the RC spelling right I accidentally missed off his surname.  The other was 'Maria Joanna Battista'.

Good evening to all following!  I have some time on my hands and have gone right back through the entire thread to get my facts straight ;D (RTL I have just seen all of the wonderful details relating to Giovanni's children's admission/discharge from the workhouse!  :-[ ) and to work out what is outstanding that could be useful.

First a point regarding the above... Maria Joanna Battista is Mary Jane Battista, Vincenzo's wife (and my 2xGt Grandmother) and William Bell is Mary Janes son-in-law, husband to her eldest daughter Marianna Battista.

This is interesting that they witnessed this, Giovanni's second marriage in 1901.  Also, Anastasia's address on the 1903 Electoral Roll is Stowell Street - where Vincenzo and Mary Jane and families lived for most if not all of their lives.  Vincenzo died in 1900, so it means that Giovanni must have been close to his brother/brothers family don't you think?

Also, I have realised that Anastasia was pregnant with Henry Leo (born Sep 1901) when she married Giovanni (Feb 1901).

Henry Leo died in July 1902 - I have ordered his death certificate for the address and any other useful info.  As previously suggested this may mention Giovanni.

Plus, I have grave references for Vincenzo, his and Giovanni's other brother Antonio as well as Henry Leo.  All buried at Elswick.  I am hoping to enlist the help of someone who can go to check for stones for me.  Hoping RTL will be correct and Giovanni could be referenced on one.

Finally, I have ordered the Wellesley book and have been scouring all of the links re this and the WW1 commemorations with much interest.  I feel quite sad to think how hard their lives appear to have been.  I also note that there doesn't appear to be much mentioned about Vincents death in WW1.. especially given he died just a month or so before John George  ??? I am so hoping to come across some other Battista descendants who can shine more positive light on the families progress in life.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 06 October 18 20:19 BST (UK)
One more thing.. Anastasia on 1903 electoral roll is noted with 3 successive properties... I understand that she would have been the rate payer to be eligible... I wonder what this suggests about her financial status... I need to understand more about the electoral roll I think.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 07 October 18 11:19 BST (UK)
Yes, I agree it does sound like Giovanni was close to his brothers family.  If only there is a grave stone out there which might have some more clues recorded on it.

That is interesting what you mention about Anastasia and the properties.  I don't know what that may suggest about the her financial status either.  I know from the research I did that she is buried in the same grave as her daughter which might mean it was a private grave.  I think if it was a private grave the family would have the right to erect a grave stone.  If so, I wonder if there may be anything inscribed relating to Giovanni or whether they may only mention their own Father - Michael Whelan.

I have an ancestor who married three men but only the middle one is referenced on her grave at Church Bank Cemetery at Wallsend.

I have noticed that Vincent doesn't appear to be mentioned as much as John George in the Great War.  Perhaps This might be because after he left the workhouse he went to live in a different area (albeit he came back) and John George who stayed in North Shields may have been seen as more of a local man. 

I do hope you do get to come across some other descendants who may be able to help.  Maybe one day one such person will see this thread and come forward.

I also hope you enjoy the book when it arrives.  I have no ancestors who were on the Wellesley but I must say, I do find this book a fascinating read any way.  There seems to have been a close fraternity between the boys and they could be set up for life by learning new skills for a trade even if they did not plan on going to sea.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 13 October 18 14:33 BST (UK)
Hello again everyone,

I have an update.. having been recovering from some surgery so I've had some time on my hands to go back through my research and I have started to build up a bit of a picture of what was happening in Giovanni's life leading up to his last known address at Turpins Bank in 1902.

I ordered and received the death certificate of Henry Leo, Giovanni's youngest and only son by Anastasia.  He died on July 14th 1902 at 2 Stowell Square of convulsions/measles and the informant on his certificate was his father Giovanni, present at death.  Very interesting to note that this date was just 3 days before Lily Battista was admitted to Tynemouth workhouse, citing her fathers address as Turpin Bank.  It was also just 3 months before the rest of Giovanni's younger children were admitted to Tynemouth Workhouse on 17 Nov 1902.

Giovanni definitely had an awful few years...
His brother Vincenzo died January 1900 (followed shortly by Vincenzo's baby son Nicola in April).
His first wife (and mother of 8 children) Elizabeth died in September 1900.
He then marries Anastasia 5 months later in Feb 1901, who is already 3 months pregnant with Henry Leo.   
They are all living together in April 1901 at 9 Bird Street - including Lily who is 17 and Elizabeth 15.
Henry Leo is born in Sep 1901, the family now have a new baby to cope with.
Lily is admitted to Tynemouth Workhouse in Nov 1901 for 20 days and then again on Dec 28th 1901 where she states her father has gone to Newcastle, address unknown (discharge unknown).
Henry Leo dies in July 1902 aged just 10 months at 2 Stowell Street, Giovanni is present.
Giovanni's 7 youngest children are admitted to Tynemouth workhouse in November 1902.

RTL - I can't remember whether you found a baptism record for Henry Leo?  It would be interesting to note an address or his godparents then.. I have the reference on Ancestry but it doesn't give these details in the transcription.

I also obtained two more marriage certificates hoping to glean more conclusive info on Giovanni's death, but they have only deepened the mystery  :o

I believe his eldest son Pasqaulino married a woman called Marieta Di Carlo in 1906, however this certificate arrived and the fathers name is Bernardo!  Pasqualino is named as Pasquale (which he is known as on other records) and both he and his father are listed as Ice Cream sellers from North Shields.  Father is not noted as deceased.  Pasquales address is 40 Ellison Street, North Shields but I can't find this on a map, only an Ellison Street in Jarrow  ???  Interestingly Marieta's father is also called Bernardo.. that's a coincidence right or maybe a typo?  Her address is Princess Street, Newcastle.. another address I cannot find.  I've found some small references to the Di Carlo family but they are also quite elusive.  Marieta and Pasquale had a son Loretto in 1907 (I have birth and baptism records) then both mother and son disappear and Pasqualino went on to re-marry down in London (being a sailor I think he had 'a girl in every port').

Secondly, I ordered John George and Emma Anderson's marriage cert from 1911... on this JG father's name is JOHAN BATTISTA and he is a CUSTOMS HOUSE OFFICER.  John George's address is Church Street, North Shields and he is a Fish Quay Labourer, aged 21.. all of which fit.  Emma Anderson is noted as living at the same address but having searched her and her father John Anderson on the 1911 census for that address came up with zero.  Similarly and unsurprisingly, there is no trace of a JOHAN Battista anywhere in the north east at that time.

I remember some time back on this thread his other daughter Elizabeth's workhouse admission in 1912 which noted her fathers as "William, a Tailor".

I also think Giovanni has been noted to as FRANK before - on his first wife Elizabeth's burial record.

This truly is a mystery  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 13 October 18 21:27 BST (UK)
Hi Sophie,

That is some very interesting new information there .. I am just en route to nightshift now but will take time to go over this and will get back on this in the next few days.

I thought I did get Henry Leo's baptism but I will have to go back over these posts.  Yes, Giovanni was down as Frank on Elizabeth's burial record.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 14 October 18 11:00 BST (UK)
Hi Sophie,

I have had a look through my posts again and on post 95 (page 11) of mine, I did record Henry Leo's baptism at St Cuthbert RC, at North Shields.  His Godmother you will see was Maria Sedgwick.  There was no address on the record unfortunately.

Battista has related on (post 159 page 18) that he/she believes Giovanni was married in Italy and potentially may have had children there too.  So if so this would make Elizabeth the second wife.

That is very interesting that Giovanni is recorded as a CUSTOMS HOUSE OFFICER.
There is a CUSTOMS HOUSE in South Shields.  This is just over the River Tyne across from the fish quay at North Shields. Probably, only about a five minute walk from the ferry landing.

https://www.southtyneside.gov.uk/article/49502/The-Customs-House

There is also a CUSTOMS HOUSE in Newcastle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customs_House,_Newcastle_upon_Tyne

I wonder if it might be that Giovanni might have crossed the River to go and live and work at South Shields? All his changes of names!  I wonder what was behind all that?  I agree, this truly is all a mystery.  I think this might be doubtful, but I wonder if there may be any old registers of staff out there somewhere?

When I next get time I will fit in a visit to the archives to check if there was an Ellison Street in North Shields or not.  I think they have some street names books of the area at that time.  I could also check for the baptisms of Loreto (1907) and Bernard Battista - Freebmd also seems to have this son's registration in 1912 too.  I think they may possibly have been baptised at St Cuthbert, North Shields so I could try there.  Hopefully, if these records are found they may provide more useful information.

It has been a while now since I looked at those workhouse records.  I think I remember seeing Emma in the workhouse too at one point but I am not 100% certain about this now.  I do remember for definite that Dorothy Playford was also in the workhouse at one point but I did not note the dates - I only noted the ones of Giovanni's children.  I wonder if that may be where she first met her future husband to be?

I hope you are recovering well from your surgery.

I think Battista is going to have a good ally in you when trying to solve this mystery.  What an intriguing puzzle this is all turning out to be!

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 14 October 18 11:41 BST (UK)
Sophie, I have just inputted the words 'Ellison Street, North Shields into a search on British Newspaper Archives and from the results it appears that there was an Ellison Street in North Shields.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 17 October 18 10:04 BST (UK)
I was at Tyne and Wear Archives yesterday so got the opportunity to look up the discharge for Lily in 1902 from the workhouse.  Sophie had mentioned discharge unknown.  This must have been an oversight on my part when I did the original workhouse searches.  I have checked again and can confirm that after Lily was admitted to the workhouse on 28 December 1901 she was then discharged on 6th March 1902 age 18.  The record doesn't give much more information apart from that she was admitted from North Shields and that her religion was 'EC'.

I also checked the the baptisms of Pasqualino's children - Loretto and Bernard.  Battista and Sophie, I am not sure if I am misunderstanding something but if Pasqualino married in 1906 and again in 1910 - could second marriage have been a bigamous one?  Second child baptized appears to be by first wife.

Loretto Battista
Baptised St Cuthbert, North Shields on 4 December 1907
Birthdate: 15 November 1907
Parents: Pasquale & Mariae Battista nee di Carlo
Address: 40 Elsdon Street  (Sophie I checked the microfilm twice as I remembered that you mentioned an address of 40 Ellison Street - however, in the St Cuthbert register the recording is definitely as 40 Elsdon Street.
Godparents: Francisco Rando & Joanna Rando

Bernardus Battista
Baptised 5 February 1912, St Cuthbert, North Shields
Born 29 January 1912
Parents: Pasquali Batista (sic) & Mariae Batista nee di Carlo
25 Coronation Street
Godmother: Rosa (P--?teoli) di Carlo is written but crossed out.

Here is the marriage record of Marianna you mentioned Sophie.  I thought I may as well get this when I had the opportunity just in case you and battista may not already have this for your records:

St Nicholas Cathedral, Newcastle upon Tyne
Entry 283
William Bell and Marianna Battista
Sept 2nd 1901
His age 20  Her age not completely clear - possibly 18?
Bachelor & Spinster
Writing not totally clear but looks like 'General Cartman' for William's profession
His address: 2 D--?  C--? Gallowgate
Her address: 22 Gallowgate
Fathers -
Jonathon Bell - (General Cartman?)
Vincenzo Battista - Tailor
Witnesses: Joseph Crowther Armstrong & Hannah Vickers
All signed

Also just in case you may want the information on baby Nicholas you mentioned Sophie

Evening Chronicle - Wednesday, April 18, 1900
'BATTISTA - Newcastle, 6 Stowell Street, on the 17th inst., aged 10 months, Nicholas Battista, beloved son of Mary Jane and the late Vincenzo Battista.  To be interred Elswick, 2.0 Friday.'

Nicholas's burial record on register is entry 34285.  He is record as 'Nicola' and is mistakenly entered as a 'Female'.  Where he is buried appears to me as Section J Grave no 86.  The J is fancy type writing.  On a previous post I wrote that I thought that Vincenzo was buried in section J but you Sophie, say this is a T.  I wonder if this is something that you have been told by the burial services staff.  If this is so, perhaps even though Nicholas's grave appears to be in section J it may actually be section T.  It may possibly be that Nicholas is in the grave next to his Father Vincenzo.

I hope all this information might be helpful.  I sometimes find that it can sometimes be worth looking at a number of records for clues when trying to solve a brickwall because you never know when you might see something or someone which might shed a chink of light on where to look next. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 17 October 18 10:25 BST (UK)
Quote
Address: 40 Elsdon Street  (Sophie I checked the microfilm twice as I remembered that you mentioned an address of 40 Ellison Street - however, in the St Cuthbert register the recording is definitely as 40 Elsdon Street.

Just to confirm that: there is no Ellison Street, North Shields in the 1841 - 1891 National Archives census street indexes http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kun/ and I can't find it as a street name on a search of either the 1901 or 1911 censuses.


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 17 October 18 10:30 BST (UK)
Hey RTL, the marriage to Marieta might shed some light on another mystery in my family.

My grandmother told me she never even knew about her grandfather Pasqualino until she was a teenager. Her grandmother, Mary Elizabeth refused to talk about him, and there was a family-wide coverup of his existence. Elizabeth remarried to George Newton in 1926 and had all her children's surnames changed from Battista to Newton. All of Pasqualino's children to Elizabeth claimed to be children of their step-father on all their documents.

If this Pasqualino is my relative, that means he was probably living two lives. It would certainly explain why my relatives refused to acknowledge his existence.

Hmm, very confusing. I'm surprised none of this material came up when I was researching him. It's not completely clear to me whether this Pasqualino is the son of Giovanni, his marriage certificate to Marieta states his father is Bernando Battista. However, Marieta's father is also a Bernando, so possibly this is a mistake.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 17 October 18 10:58 BST (UK)
Everything is so puzzling but perhaps all this as you say, Battista is starting to shed some light on some areas.  I do think it may well be possible that Pasqualino may have led two lives.

I know from the newspapers that another brother of Pasqualino, (I can't remember off the top of my head now who exactly) was taken to court for desertion by his wife later on.

Those times were so hard and I think today we can't fully imagine what an effect all this would have had on individual members in the family.  Bereavement, family break-up, struggling with a large family to make ends meet, etc.  The Battistas at that time certainly seemed to have had more than their fair share of misfortune and sad times. :-\
Although, we still don't know what happened to Giovanni I wonder if he too may have deserted and may have led two lives?  Could he have possibly be the one who remarried down south?  I know there is an age discrepancy, but I think he may possibly have been able to get away with it.  He may have reduced age to match a younger wife, possibly.

It is so strange that their is no death or burial for Giovanni in the local area.  Also strange, is that there was nothing in the papers regarding possible accidental tragedy - none of his family seem to have alerted in the newspapers that he was a missing person.  To me it appears that they knew what had happened to him and just got on with things.  I could be totally wrong on this.  Hopefully, one day the mystery surrounding all this might be uncovered.

Regarding the marriage record - when researching, this is not the first time in a Catholic register that I have come across someone being attributed with the same parents as their spouse. 

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 17 October 18 11:16 BST (UK)
Just to add further on when Sophie mentioned the Elizabeth in the workhouse with a Father as 'William' who was recorded as a tailor.  I wonder if the William may be the father of Elizabeth's baby rather than a referral to her own Father?

When Elizabeth left  the Tynemouth workhouse the first time she went with 'W. Brabant'.  Could he have been the tailor mentioned?  Perhaps she went off to work for him.  She is recorded as having come back to Tynemouth from another workhouse.  I wonder if the William a tailor may have not been able to support her and the baby for whatever reason, such as death, or desertion.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 17 October 18 13:31 BST (UK)
Hi all,

Definitely useful to have as much info as possible to cross reference... thanks again RTL.

Pasqualino's does appear to be a bigamist if he is one and the same as Pasquale, although I do not think Marieta lived very long.  I cannot find trace of her after the marriage.  I have a record from England Select Burials & Deaths for a Maria Battista in 1916, but when I applied to the GRO for a death cert they couldn't find one.

What I have on Marieta is that she came to UK with her brother Antonio De Carlo and his wife Restituta.  She is on the 1901 census with them, lodging in Trafalgar St with the Letoria's (a renowned lodge for Italian immigrants), aged 11.  Their father Bernardo must have stayed in Italy and died there (he is deceased on her marriage cert to Pasquale). 

The family are then on the 1911 census - Tony, Rosie (Restituta) and three children, the youngest of whom is 5 month old Bernardo.  But no mention of Marieta, Loretto nor Bernardo Battista.  Very interestingly though Antonio is an 'Ice Cream Merchant' and the family are living at Providence Place, Felling (all three children born in Felling).  I think this last fact along with them having lodged at the same place in Trafalgar St as the Battista brothers first did, makes it highly likely the two families (De Carlo's and Battista's) knew each other well.

Battista - all of this info is on my tree along with some more about the De Carlo family.  They have a descendant on there who has uploaded some great photo's, none of Marieta sadly.

To clarify two other bits of info RTL provided.. the address on William & Marianna's marriage cert of 22 Gallowgate is the address of Vincenzo's confectionary/tobacconists shop.  We also know he had premises at 71 Percy Street.  Also I did know about little Nicola and he is definitely buried next to his father.. I am not sure why he wouldn't have been buried with his father but at least he is next to him  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 17 October 18 13:47 BST (UK)
Yes - it was James Battista who deserted his wife Dorothy Playford I think.. I've seen the same article.  Doesn't mention wives name but I haven't come across another marriage for him.

Re Elizabeth, I have tried searching for William Brabant country wide on the 1911 but nothing turned up so far.

Another point on the Marieta/Pasquale marriage - the coincidence of the trade being Ice Cream Sellers (both Pasquale and his father Bernardo)  ???  I have another newspaper cutting from August 1911 about a Pasquair Battista who was charged with obstructing the street in Whitley Bay.  Apparently this Pasquair pretended he didn't speak a word of English but was caught out when the prosecution proved he had been selling Ice Cream on the streets for 10 years! 

I guess this would suggest there was another Pasquair/Pasquale/Pasqualino Battista as our Pasqualino was in continuous Naval service from 1896.  Just very strange there is no record of these people though  ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 17 October 18 14:09 BST (UK)
When Elizabeth left  the Tynemouth workhouse the first time she went with 'W. Brabant'.  Could he have been the tailor mentioned?  Perhaps she went off to work for him.  She is recorded as having come back to Tynemouth from another workhouse.  I wonder if the William a tailor may have not been able to support her and the baby for whatever reason, such as death, or desertion.

I still think it is very coincidental that there were Tynemouth Workhouse Officers surname Brabant He was Boys Warden and she was Girls Industrial Trainer, according to a newspaper article of 1902


In the last workhouse record I found earlier this week for Elizabeth it records that she was taken out by a W. Brabant.

Are you positive it was a 'W'? The reason I ask is that in 1911 one of the officers at Tynemouth Workhouse was called Charles Lawrence Brabant, and his wife, also an officer, was Sarah Elizabeth Brabant. (Not that it's of any great significance to the search  ::) )
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: jon541 on Wednesday 17 October 18 14:12 BST (UK)
With reference to River Tyne Lass's earlier post on the Elswick Cemetery burial plot, the graves register (only ... unfortunately the burial register isn't yet) is now freely viewable on FamilySearch which confirms that it's T86 and not J86.

Nicola Battista was buried there on April 20th 1900 aged 10 months at a cost of 3 shillings. There are no other Battistas listed in that grave space but Vincenzo Battista was buried in T85 aged 47 years on Jan 7th 1900 at a cost of 5 shillings.

Look up LDS film # 008426890 and page 708 (film page not document page)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 17 October 18 15:29 BST (UK)
Thanks Jon541 - I actually have a copy of the burial register from the T&W Archives but I didnt know the graves register was available on FamilySearch, will be useful.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 17 October 18 15:35 BST (UK)
Hi Jen - yes I agree that it is a coincidence re the name Brabant.. there are a few in this story! Its a lead I'm definitely trying to follow up.. I don't know anything of poor Elizabeth other than the workhouse entry and her baptism.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 18 October 18 07:22 BST (UK)
Perhaps W Brabant may have been a relation of the Brabants?  I suppose another possibility is this may have been a false identity.  I wonder if anyone ever checked the credentials of those coming to workhouses to seek workers?  If not inmates would probably have been at risk of exploitation.  Please let us know Sophie if you discover who W Brabant may have been.

Regarding the lettering in the burial records - whoever wrote this entry wrote the 'T' in quite a fancified way with a hook like line to the left - which is why I thought it was a 'J'.

Sophie, do you now think that Pasqualino may not have married Marieta and that this may have been some other person? 

Do you know if  Marieta was buried in this area?  I wonder if that type of thing ever happened - that someone was buried without a death registration?  It seems strange that the GRO have no certificate.  If she was buried here I may be able to find her and then could check for a death notice/memoriams which may provide more clues.

When my shifts next permit me to get to the North Shields library I could check the Whitley Seaside Chronicle & Visitors Gazette to see if the 1911 incident with Pasquale was written up in there and to see if there are any more details.  This newspaper is not yet on-line. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 18 October 18 08:58 BST (UK)
Secondly, I ordered John George and Emma Anderson's marriage cert from 1911... on this JG father's name is JOHAN BATTISTA and he is a CUSTOMS HOUSE OFFICER. 

I don't know anything much about this occupation, but do wonder if it's realistic that an ice-cream seller could become a custom house officer? It might perhaps be a case of John George wanting to impress and giving his father an occupation 'better' that the one he actually had  :-\
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 18 October 18 09:31 BST (UK)
Secondly, I ordered John George and Emma Anderson's marriage cert from 1911... on this JG father's name is JOHAN BATTISTA and he is a CUSTOMS HOUSE OFFICER. 

I don't know anything much about this occupation, but do wonder if it's realistic that an ice-cream seller could become a custom house officer? It might perhaps be a case of John George wanting to impress and giving his father an occupation 'better' that the one he actually had  :-\

Yea, I do think it's a bit odd.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 18 October 18 12:05 BST (UK)
Secondly, I ordered John George and Emma Anderson's marriage cert from 1911... on this JG father's name is JOHAN BATTISTA and he is a CUSTOMS HOUSE OFFICER. 

I don't know anything much about this occupation, but do wonder if it's realistic that an ice-cream seller could become a custom house officer? It might perhaps be a case of John George wanting to impress and giving his father an occupation 'better' that the one he actually had  :-\

Yea, I do think it's a bit odd.

Agreed - it is very odd.. but also odd that you would have effectively three Battista families (Giovanni, Bernardo & Johan) in the same area at the same time, all with sons of the same name (i.e. John George & Pasqualino)!  ???

I wonder what qualification you'd need for Customs House Officer it does sound more middle class than working class.

I might see about gathering some more of the childrens marriage certificates to see what Giovanni's occupation/name is.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 18 October 18 12:45 BST (UK)
Perhaps W Brabant may have been a relation of the Brabants?  I suppose another possibility is this may have been a false identity.  I wonder if anyone ever checked the credentials of those coming to workhouses to seek workers?  If not inmates would probably have been at risk of exploitation.  Please let us know Sophie if you discover who W Brabant may have been.

Regarding the lettering in the burial records - whoever wrote this entry wrote the 'T' in quite a fancified way with a hook like line to the left - which is why I thought it was a 'J'.

Sophie, do you now think that Pasqualino may not have married Marieta and that this may have been some other person? 

Do you know if  Marieta was buried in this area?  I wonder if that type of thing ever happened - that someone was buried without a death registration?  It seems strange that the GRO have no certificate.  If she was buried here I may be able to find her and then could check for a death notice/memoriams which may provide more clues.

When my shifts next permit me to get to the North Shields library I could check the Whitley Seaside Chronicle & Visitors Gazette to see if the 1911 incident with Pasquale was written up in there and to see if there are any more details.  This newspaper is not yet on-line.

The article about Pasquair selling ice cream in Whitley Bay does make me query whether there was actually another Battista family in the area - anything is possible I guess.  There are just so many coincidences though with the rest of the info.  I am going to see if some of the other childrens marriage certificates turn anything up.  Would be great to see if we could get more detail about the Pasquair incident and the death of Maria Battista if you do get a chance RTL  :)

England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991 gives only the following:-
Name:   Maria Battista
Gender:   Female
Death Date:   May 1916
Death Place:   Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
FHL Film Number:   1936955
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 18 October 18 12:47 BST (UK)
Quote
Agreed - it is very odd.. but also odd that you would have effectively three Battista families (Giovanni, Bernardo & Johan) in the same area at the same time, all with sons of the same name (i.e. John George & Pasqualino)!  ???

I wold strongly suspect that 'Johan' is a mis-spelling of John which is the Anglicised version of Giovanni.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 18 October 18 13:15 BST (UK)
Perhaps W Brabant may have been a relation of the Brabants?  I suppose another possibility is this may have been a false identity.  I wonder if anyone ever checked the credentials of those coming to workhouses to seek workers?  If not inmates would probably have been at risk of exploitation.  Please let us know Sophie if you discover who W Brabant may have been.

I agree that W Brabant could have been a relative looking for a servant.  I found an article about Tynemouth Union from 1912 concerning the launch of a new scheme for children's homes - where children were to be placed in smaller 'cottage' homes run by foster mothers rather than being kept within the workhouse.  It seemed that this had been a long planned scheme and had been trialled in other areas of the country.  It makes me think perhaps Elizabeth was sent to work for a Brabant relative in 1904 aged 16, perhaps somewhere near to Bolton.  After a few years things didn't work out and she was admitted to the workhouse there, now as an adult aged 24 but then transferred back to Tynemouth, being where she originated from.  I understand that it was common place for workhouses to transfer people back to where they came from to reduce the financial burden on the parish that provided for them.  Sadly it looks like her story might have been one of exploitation being the only Battista daughter to have been through the institution as a child and obviously falling pregnant in the system.  From what I have read, men and women were kept well apart within the workhouse so often that situation arising was as a result of those in authority. I have been looking for a W Brabant in Lancashire and also an Elizabeth of the right age back in Tynemouth in 1911.. nothing yet.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 18 October 18 14:19 BST (UK)
Going back to RTL's original posting about this (reply #95 on p.11 of the thread)

Quote
Elizabeth 'Batista' was discharged on Aug 17th 1904 age 16.  She was taken out by 'W. Brabant'.

There was a William Brabant living in Newcastle in 1901. He was a furniture broker living in Albion Row. RG 13/4790/88/1

I don't think he was a brother to Charles Brabant of the workhouse, but it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he was related  :-\


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 18 October 18 19:23 BST (UK)
Hi Jen, I too came across that William Brabant.. frustratingly nothing to connect Charles Brabant or Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 19 October 18 07:08 BST (UK)
I am now working long day shifts at the moment but as soon as shifts permit I will check for the Newcastle burial when I can next get to Newcastle library.  I will also check for Pasquale  1911 incident in the Whitley Bay newspaper when I can next get to North Shields library.

Sophie which newspaper did you come across that story in and what was the date?  The date will help me to find any recording of it in the Whitley Bay newspaper.  I will also check the Newcastle Chronicle as the story may have also appeared in this.

Give me around a couple of weeks and I will get back on what I can find out.

By the way a freebmd death search for Northumberland and County Durham brings up two deaths for a William Brabant.  One was registered in Newcastle 1927 and one in Sunderland 1919.  Of course neither of these two may have been the one who came for Elizabeth at the workhouse.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 19 October 18 08:51 BST (UK)
which newspaper did you come across that story in and what was the date? 

There was an article about it in the Morpeth Herald of 11th August 1911.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 19 October 18 10:08 BST (UK)
Thanks Jen that was the exact article I found  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 19 October 18 11:00 BST (UK)
Hmm, I am trying to find out if there is a second Pasquale/Pasqualino born in England. Unfortunately, I can only find a Pasquale Battisto born 1878. This is my Pasquale, not another one. Can't find any names that resemble him from 1870 - 1890 in FreeBMD.

It's possible another was born in Italy and moved to England, it would be nice if there was a census record of two of them or some document with a birth in town in Italy (I might be able to track down the Italian birth certificate).

Perhaps they are the same person, another mystery.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: WolfieSmith on Friday 19 October 18 12:40 BST (UK)
The Pasquale Battista who marries Maria di Carlo. They have a son Loreto, born Dec 1907. And another son Bernardo born Mar qtr 1912. Address on the 1912 baptism as found by RTL is 25 Coronation St. North Shields. They are at the same address in 1911 census except names are back to front and Pasquale is down as Loreta as well as his son. Maybe language confusions. Not sure how far we can go with 1911 lookups but just search for Batista Loreta.

As the other Pasqualino, son of Giovanni, was in the Navy from 1896 to 1920 and married as a bachelor in London in 1910, I think this is a different person.

Alan.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Rena on Friday 19 October 18 15:18 BST (UK)
Have you already looked on the National Archive website?  There's too many for me to look through

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Battista&_p=1900%7C1800&_ps=60

Name: Batt, George - Battista, Antonio : War Office service records WO364/181:  1914-1920

Medal card of Battista, Antonio Corps: Northumberland Fusiliers Regiment No

R632526 BATTISTA  C   25/07/1931 NEWCASTLE: Register of Seamen and Shipping 1913-1972.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 19 October 18 16:29 BST (UK)
Rena - yes have exhausted most if not all online records.

WolfieSmith - fab find thank you!  No wonder they have never turned up before, the names are all over the place but I am thinking that is down to being lost in translation from Italian to English.  I have our Pasqualino on the 1911 census down in Kent (stationed with Navy) with his "second wife" so it does look like they are indeed two people.

There are still some big discrepancies as the Heads name is Branda Burnard, no mention of De Carlo.. plus on Pasquale/Marietta's 1906 marriage certificate she notes her father Bernardo De Carlo as being deceased and an agricultural labourer (making me think he lived/worked/died in Italy)  ???

Battista - this is still intriguing don't you think?  Another Battista streets away from our Battista's, in the same trade?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: WolfieSmith on Friday 19 October 18 16:40 BST (UK)
Branda Burnard  and his wife have been married for 14 years, so that could be Pasquales mother in law remarried. Names could be back to front as well, so he might be Burnard Branda.

Alan.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 20 October 18 08:48 BST (UK)
Thanks Jen for supplying the 1911 article and the date and Sophie for confirming this as the article you came across.  This will be helpful for when I can next get to the libraries.  Even if it now seems this may be some other 'Pasqualino' perhaps this person may be of the same family line.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 20 October 18 18:51 BST (UK)
I have nipped back to the archives ..

Could this possibly be a good lead ... ? :)

Tynemouth Workhouse Admission
Wednesday October 9th 1912
3.30 p.m.
Battista, Elizabeth Ann
Religion EC
Age 24
'Spinster Mother
Father William a tailor'
Admitted from Tynemouth
No friends
Transferred from Bolton Union

&

Battista, John
age 5 mnths

Both discharged at 9.45 a.m.
January 30, 1913
On discharge Elizabeth was age 25 and John recorded as age 1.

Perhaps Battista, it might be worth checking to see if Bolton Workhouse records exist.  Could William be Giovanni?  Or could the record mean that baby John's father may have been called William and that he was a tailor.  It is a bit ambiguous.  I wonder why she was transferred from Bolton?  In the last workhouse record I found earlier this week for Elizabeth it records that she was taken out by a W. Brabant.


I have been in touch with the Bolton Archives and it is another dead end I'm afraid.. they have no discharge record for Elizabeth and John and there is no recorded birth for the baby either :(

On a positive, as I was able to give them the exact references for the volumes they did the look up for free.

RTL - the archivist at Bolton suggested that perhaps it could have been BOLDON workhouse?  Which was under the South Shields poor law union at that time in 1912 known as Harton Moor.  Do you think thats a possibility?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 20 October 18 22:32 BST (UK)
The record did say Bolton.

However, it could be a possibility that the person who made the entry may have got mixed up, I suppose.

The next time my shifts permit me to get back to the archives I will check.  Off the top of my head I think Tyne and Wear Archives have the Harton (South Shields) workhouse records.  I am not sure about Boldon but I can try to find out.

I could not find a registration of baby John either.  I wonder what became of them both after they left the Tynemouth workhouse?  They seem to have disappeared as well. :-\

http://www.margaret-hall-genealogy.com/page7.htm

Added: If you look on this local website on Tyne and Wear Archives User Guides then under paupers records you will see that they have the admissions for Harton and Sunderland Workhouses.  I will check both next time I am able to go back to the archives.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Sunday 21 October 18 09:30 BST (UK)
RTL - the archivist at Bolton suggested that perhaps it could have been BOLDON workhouse?  Which was under the South Shields poor law union at that time in 1912 known as Harton Moor.  Do you think thats a possibility?

The problem with that idea, if I have my facts straight, is that there wasn't a Boldon Union. Boldon was part of the South Shields Poor Law Union. So if she'd been transferred from there the record should say 'transferred from South Shields Union'. It couldn't say Boldon Union because there wasn't one  :-\
RTL reports that the record clearly states Bolton Union. http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Bolton/

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 21 October 18 16:53 BST (UK)
Jen is right in that there is no Boldon Union.

However, even though it does say Bolton Union I will check the South Shields and Sunderland Workhouses when I get a chance, just in case.  I think the South Shields workhouse was not all that far away from Boldon. 

If it was me after this look up I would be probably ask a RootsChatter in the Bolton area if they could do another look up of the admissions for that workhouse.  Elizabeth may have entered at any point after she  left the Tynemouth workhouse. I have had experience of others saying something is not there when it turns out to be otherwise.  It does seem strange that Elizabeth is recorded as being transferred from Bolton Union but yet you, Sophie, have been told there is no record.  ???  If I do not find her at the South Shields or Sunderland workhouse in the next few weeks I would definitely consider asking for a second check at Bolton.  Hopefully, a RootsChatter in that area may be able to do it.

I have had a chance to check the Elswick Cemetery records and the newspapers today for Maria Battista death 1916.  Nothing found.  Of course she could have been buried elsewhere.  I have looked at the burial you found which seems to be on FamilySearch.  A look at their catalogue seems to suggest that this record was taken from one of 3 possible RC Church entries, the one at Stella, or St Andrew or St Mary both in Newcastle.  If no one beats me to it in getting to the archives or the Mormon family history centre I will check this when I can.

The 1911 EC newspapers are missing at Newcastle library so I have not been able to check out the 1911 story in this newspaper.  However, it may well be found in the Whitley Bay paper which I can check when at the North Shields library. 

Could that be Pasqualino on freebmd who is recorded as having death registered in March quarter 1951?

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 21 October 18 21:47 BST (UK)
RTL I think it is definitely worth checking the South Shields records thank you.. but if nothing then yes, getting a second check would be a good idea.  Its so frustrating when something should be there!  I am following up the 'Brabant' name in the Bolton area... I guess it could make sense that she could have been taken out as a servant in 1904, taken to Bolton but then ended up in trouble somehow, pregnant and then a single mother back into the workhouse and then ultimately got transferred home to North Shields.  I think it's also intriguing that there doesn't appear to be much of a connection between Elizabeth and her sister Lily.  Perhaps this is because she moved/was sent away.  Lily is very clearly in most of her other siblings lives.. I have her with her older sister Georgina on the 1911 census - Georgina is visiting her in NS despite having moved to and married in London.  She also appears to be trying to help her brothers on and off throughout their lives.. but no mention ever of Elizabeth.. yet.

Yes that is our Pasqualino.. died Mar 1951 and the informant was his sister Lily.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 22 October 18 08:57 BST (UK)
Yes, I will check within the next few weeks - even if just to say all the boxes have been ticked before you go on to ask for a second check at Bolton.

If you know Pasqualino's date of death I could check for any possible notices including memoriams if you don't already have these. (When work hours permit).

I see according to freebmd an Elizabeth Battista married someone with the surname 'Englush' in 1919 December quarter in Newcastle.  Unfortunately marriage does not provide place of marriage.  I wonder if this person may be this ancestor Elizabeth? If so I wonder if she may have changed son John's name also to 'English '?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 22 October 18 19:01 BST (UK)
Thanks so much RTL - any and all info is useful.  I often find that things I think aren't of any use often come into play later on  :)

Regarding the Elizabeth Battista marrying English - she is one of my GGAunts, a daughter of Vincenzo.  She married Percy English and I have photos of her and her family.  Vincenzo also had an Eliza born 1893.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 23 October 18 11:51 BST (UK)
I cannot find Elizabeth or son John at either the Harton (South Shields) or Sunderland workhouses.

I have found the Maria Battista death entry at St Mary RC in Newcastle upon Tyne:

It records that Maria Battista died in Maii -  no death date.  Home address given as 115 Blandford Street.  Burial at Elswick Cemetery on 29 May.  Death must have occurred back end of May as death entries above this one are for 20 and 27 May respectively.  There is a word in left hand margin but neither the staff or I can make this out ..

However, peculiarly the burial entry at Elswick is actually for

Entry 49365
Vincent Battiste (sic)
Male
1 mth
115 Blandford Street
Burial May 29 1916

 ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 23 October 18 12:18 BST (UK)
Baptism for this Vincent:

St Mary RC, Newcastle upon Tyne 1916
Vincentius Battista
Born 9 April
Bapt 26 April
115 Blandford St
Angelo Battista
Anna Maria (Baker)

Antonio Guaglieri
Frances Guaglieri
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 23 October 18 14:40 BST (UK)
I have found Pasquair story in Whitley paper.  Give me a few minutes to type. :)

Added:

Whitley Seaside Chronicle & Vistors'Gazette - Saturday, Aug 12 1911

'The usual fortnightly Petty Sessional Court was held at Whitley Police Buildings on Wednesday forenoon.  Mr H. Oswin Bell presiding.  The other magistrates on the bench were Mr F.E. Weightman, Mr R.L. Dees, Mr H. Richardson, Mr W.L. Dowling, Mr T.H. Askew, and Mr Morton.

OBSTRUCTION BY ICE CREAM VENDOR
Pasquair Battista, 25, Coronation Street, North Shields, ice cream vendor, appeared to answer a charge of obstructing the free passage of the Promenade, Whitley Bay, on the 26th July.
A police constable spoke to the offence.  Defendant, he said, was obstructing the traffic at 2 o'clock on the afternoon of the date mentioned, and he ordered him to move on.  At four o'clock he again found him obstructing the traffic.
Defendant contended, through an interpreter, that he did not understand the police-man's orders.
He was ordered to pay 7s 6d., including costs.'
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 23 October 18 14:44 BST (UK)
Fab RTL - thanks so much!

So, Angelo Battista was the third Battista brother Antonio's eldest son and Hannah Maria Baker was Angelo's wife.  She died in 1972 so it can't be her.  I knew about the baby Vincent... but perhaps there were twins?  Vincent and Maria?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 23 October 18 15:00 BST (UK)
I think there may have been a mix up at the Church.  My guess is that perhaps the people concerned with burial confused baby Vincent with his Mother's name in part (Maria/Mary).  Perhaps she went by Mary rather than Hannah?  Baby only one month old so perhaps easy to confuse as a girl, perhaps?

There is no Maria buried according to the burial register .. only baby Vincent.

By the way, above newspaper for Whitley Bay was a weekly one.  The crimes and misdemeanors make fascinating reading.  Apparently, there was also a children's court.  There is also a write up of a charge of little children stealing toffees.  I have also come across someone 'dangerously' driving around Whitley Bay at 10 miles an hour! ;D

Gosh!  I am glad I live in Whitley Bay now and not then with all that crime around back then .. ice cream vendors blocking the path, toffee stealers and boy racers!  Whew!  ;D ;D ;D

This Whitley paper is my favourite newspaper; I hope to see this on-line one day.  Amazing reportage during the Great War especially.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 23 October 18 15:14 BST (UK)
Definitely a possibility I suppose.. she was known as Hannah though on all the other docs I have on her.  At least its pretty certain that this Maria is not Marieta. 

I am in the process of trying to connect something from the Pasquale/Marieta marriage certificate to our Battista's..  there are definitely some addresses that cross between the three brothers families - for example Blandford Street is where my GGrandad Antonio (Vincenzo's son) lived with his young family, clearly close to his cousin Angelo.

Addresses seem to be a good to follow up on census's given what Wolfie found.  Regarding that though, in the region of Italy my ancestors are from it was more common for the name Battista to be given as a Christian name or middle name.  So it is likely that that family on the 1911 census are indeed Loretto's rather than Battista's.  Can't rule it out completely though because of the address being the same as on the Bernardo Battista baptism  :-\
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 23 October 18 15:17 BST (UK)
Well, I suppose if we keep digging now and then, you never know we might get to the bottom of things eventually .. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 23 October 18 15:31 BST (UK)
Oh hopefully!

That is so funny re the type of crime back then - what a difference to the world we live in now!  Sometimes it seems to have been so hard but actually things were maybe simpler and therefore easier.

I received the Wellesley book this morning so have had my head in Victorian North Shields most of the day.  The author paints a rosy picture of life aboard and it was nice to hear that it was held in high esteem and that most of the boys went on to better things and to look back on their time on the ship with fondness.  I'm going to clarify some details for the Battista's on the Roll of Honour... they have William Armstrong correct but John George is mispelt as Battister and then there is a J. Cattista who I would think is the youngest sibling James.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: WolfieSmith on Tuesday 23 October 18 15:37 BST (UK)
Same address for Pasquair in the newspaper article. Only 3 months after 1911 census.

On the Newcastle Electoral Rolls I noticed Vincenzo Battista is down as Battista Vincenzo for several years, then Vincent Battista is down as Battista Vincent. Maybe a common Italian misunderstanding.

Alan.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 23 October 18 15:47 BST (UK)
Oh yes - we can say for sure that the ice cream seller Pasquair obstructing the street is the same Pasquale who married Marieta De Carlo and had a son Bernardo Battista. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 23 October 18 15:54 BST (UK)
Glad to hear book has arrived Sophie and that you are going to correct some errors.  I didn't even notice the Cattista mistake.  I think you are likely to be right and this is probably James.

I agree about the rosy reference you have made.  When you see the photo of the young boys on deck in their little camp beds with what looks like a thin blanket .. poor mites!  This doesn't look at all comfortable and North Shields is often cold at the best of times, probably worse moored out on the river.  I suppose this life on the Wellesley may have been better than a lot of alternatives.   However, I can imagine it would not have been easy by any means - all that discipline, structure and lack of real freedom.   :-[
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 23 October 18 16:13 BST (UK)
True RTL there was little comfort for these boys who were just children - they did mention the Captains wife and the (positive!) impact her arrival had on an all male environment.  A cuddle and some kind words would have gone much further than work and discipline  :'(.

I was just looking back over the Battista/Loreta 1911 census entry and noticed that Marieta/Maria and Loreta (aka Pasquale/Pasquair) state they have had 2 children, one having died.  So if they married in 1906, had Loretto in 1907 and he is 3 in 1911 this can't include Bernardo who wasn't born until 1912.  A quick look online shows another Antonio Battista born 1909 in Tynemouth... I may order his certificate to see what it says.  I don't have him on my tree anywhere and Pasqualino's branch were the only ones in North Shields. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 23 October 18 16:14 BST (UK)
Here is another report found in microfilm at North Shields library:

Shields Daily News - Wednesday, August 9, 1911

'ICE CREAM VENDOR CAUSES OBSTRUCTION

At Whitley to-day, an ice cream vendor named Pasquair Battista (65) of (25 or 23?) Coronation Street, North Shields, was fined 7s 6d and costs for having caused an obstruction on the Whitley Promenade on the 26th ult.'

Obviously, the newspaper must have made an error when reporting his age as 65.  House number looks part missing so could be 23 or 25 in reportage.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 23 October 18 16:36 BST (UK)
The next time I can get to the archives I could look up for a baptism for this Antonio.  I wonder what became of them all and in what way they may possibly be connected to Giovanni's family?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: WolfieSmith on Tuesday 23 October 18 16:44 BST (UK)
The Antonio Battista born 1909 in Tynemouth district. GRO website says mothers maiden name was Palombi ?

Alan.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 23 October 18 16:58 BST (UK)
Possibly a mad thought of mine but I wonder if Giovanni may have disappeared off with one of these Battistas of North Shields if they left the area.  It seems that more North Shields Battistas seem to be coming to light now.  Coincidence? Or could they have been family and interconnected? ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 23 October 18 19:27 BST (UK)
Thanks Wolfie... Hmmmm Palombi!!??  This just keeps getting more confusing.  I think it will be worth getting the cert as this Antonio must be connected in someway.. could be one of the other siblings child or even dare I say it, Giovanni!  Now that would be a shock!

RTL - there does seem to be so many errors/discrepancies surrounding this lot.. Pasquair aged 65... I don't know! It would be great to check on the baptism for Antonio if you get a chance, I will go though the birth records looking for any others that aren't accounted for as well.  Not sure how I've missed him before.  Incidentally there doesn't appear to be a death record for him either.

I think all these Battista's must be connected in someway - who knows how though as nothing seems to be corroborating anything!  :o

 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 24 October 18 22:24 BST (UK)
I will look for a baptism for Antonio next time I can get to the archives.

A Filomena DiCarlo/Palombi got married in Newcastle upon Tyne in March quarter 1907 possibly to a Vincenzo Menzoni.

If they do turn out to be parents of Antonio it will raise questions as to why he was given the surname Battista.

Could this Vincenzo really be Giovanni?  Something to look into further I think. ??? 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 26 October 18 13:55 BST (UK)
According to freebmd there appears to be two Antonio Battistas who were registered in the September quarter in Tynemouth.

I have been able to find the baptism for one whose Mother's maiden name was De Carlo but not the one whose mmn was Palombie.

St Cuthbert RC, North Shields
Antonio Baptista (sic)
Born 7 Aug
Bapt 15 Aug 1909
Parents: Pascolii et Mariae Baptista (sic) olim De Carlo
Ceremony by L. Jackson
Godparents: Antonio De Carlo & (R --?) di Carlo

Written in  the left hand margin is in brackets (Domi ob perio)
Ex (Ceremonies?)
Completica
Aug 18/09

I have no clue what that means.

As an aside I think the priest may have been Father Leo Jackson who went on to be the priest at St John Annitsford. He baptised my Dad and most of his siblings and did the burial service for my Grandfather and an aunt and uncle.

I have tried a few RC Newcastle Churches for a marriage of Filomena Palombi and Vincenzo Menzoni but didn't find this.  Perhaps they may have married at a registry? Also tried looking for a baptism for their possible son Antonio (Menzoni or Battista?) but did not find one in the time I had.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 26 October 18 14:06 BST (UK)
Quote
Written in  the left hand margin is in brackets (Domi ob perio)
Ex (Ceremonies?)
Completing
Aug 18/09

I'd hazard a guess that the wording was Domi ob peric[ulum] [mortis] which means at home because of danger of death.

So I'd suggest the child was baptised at home (i.e. in emergency) on 15th August, then was fully baptised in church on 18th August.

(Your thread here refers to a similar thing  :) https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=766243.msg6181975#msg6181975
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 26 October 18 14:14 BST (UK)
Thanks Jen, I did wonder if it might mean similar to my post you have attached but wording was not exactly the same so I was not sure.

I am the only non-Catholic 'Child' in a Catholic family of siblings .. long story how that happened .. that is why I never have a clue about all this Catholic stuff. ;D

What you write makes sense so I think you are most likely correct in that Antonio must have had an emergency baptism.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 26 October 18 14:22 BST (UK)
Shame I could not find a marriage for Filomena and Vincenzo .. at this point I am wondering if he may have been Giovanni marrying bigamously?

I wonder if he may have left Anastasia and family for this other woman.  Maybe Anastasia thought he was only living with this woman? Antonio's mmn Palombi.  If his parents were Filomena and Vincenzo his surname should be Menzoni and not Battista.  Then again if Vincenzo is really Giovanni, it would be understandable if he wanted his child by this woman to go by his real surname.  Then again, perhaps I am imagining skulduggery where none really exists. ??? ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 26 October 18 23:00 BST (UK)
Lol RTL!  I am guessing the birth certificate will reveal all  ;D. Thanks for checking the baptism out.

I agree with your translation Jen.. literal google translation is 'orders for home'.

I have the De Carlo family on my tree (given that I haven't completely ruled them out as being connected to my Pasqualino) and strangely, Filomena Palombo is Marieta De Carlo's MOTHER.  Filomena is married to Bernardo De Carlo.  They did have a son called Antonio but he was born in 1876 in Italy.  He is brother to Marieta and married to Restituta.  I think it is Antonio and Restituta who are the god parents on this Antonio's baptism.

The Filomena Palombo name and connection comes from another Ancestry member, there are no documents to back this up as yet.  However this member has a lot of information concerning Antonio De Carlo (Marieta's brother) including photographs so I think he is directly connected.  I may try to contact him to see if he can shed any light.

Vincenzo Menzoni must have been Filomena's second husband!!

I'll let you know when I have more.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 01 November 18 09:26 GMT (UK)
I have received the birth certificate for Antonio Battista.. parents Maria and Pasquale Battista... Maria Battista's maiden name is Palombi.  Address is 40 Elsdon Street so these are definitely the same parents as Loretto and I guess Bernardo. 

I think there is definitely something being covered up somewhere.. why would Maria use her mothers maiden name on that one birth certificate where she appears as Di-Carlo everywhere else?

Still nothing definite to connect this Pasquale to my Pasqualino though but also nothing to rule out him leading a double life with two families... I went through my Pasqualino's navy service record and he was stationed in this country for the vast majority of his record, usually down in Chatham in Kent.  I looked at every point he would have needed to be around (such as when he gets married and when babies were created  ;) ) and he is definitely in the UK.  There is no overlap between the two families activities so it appears it would have been entirely possible  :o. My only query is that would he have had enough time on leave or the means to get from Kent back up to North Shields on a (sort of) regular basis???

One other possibility is Maria had Antonio and Bernardo to another man but gave them the Battista surname as she was never divorced from Pasquale and so they were not illegitimate.  She may have used a mixture of names on the 1911 census for Coronation Road that Wolfie found to hide this and/or she married another man called Loreta?  I can't find anything on this 'Loreta' or 'Branda' or 'Burnard' family other than a death for Maria Loreta in 1917, however this was registered in Sunderland and the birth date is off by 30 years! (1890 vs 1860).

I am thinking to focus on the occupation and addresses... if I can just link my Pasqualino to one of the other Pasquale's addresses.... or find something relating to Pasquale noting him as a Sailor. I can't find any of them on the electoral roll as they weren't eligible.  No addresses on Pasqualino's service record.  I have asked Battista about the birth certificates for his Great Grandfather and Great Aunt (born 1913 and 1914) to Pasqualino's 'second' wife.  There are a few other certificates I could purchase but this is getting expensive... anyone have any ideas about other sources of addresses?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 01 November 18 11:41 GMT (UK)
Just received Anthony Battista and Catherine Little/Liddle's marriage certificate in the post.

Father is Giovanni Battista an Ice Cream Vendor.  No mention of being deceased.  This was August 1909.

On Pasqualino's marriage banns in 1910 Giovanni is noted as being deceased.

Witness is R. Battista who I believe is Remigio Battista, the other brother Antonio's son and Anthony's cousin.  They were the same age.  Another example of the Battista's being a close family I think.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 02 November 18 08:04 GMT (UK)
Hi Sophie,

Yes, I am also wondering if there might be a possibility that Pasqualino was leading a double life.  I have come across this type of thing before when researching so do not think that this would be beyond the realms of possibility. 

See battista's post 193.  I wonder if Mary Elizabeth may have discovered that she was not married to Pasqualino because he was already married to someone else?  Perhaps this and the fact that this would render her children illegitimate (big stigma at that time) - this might have caused the rift and the outcome of  relatives refusing to acknowledge Pasqualino's existence, etc.  I think something profound must have happened from what I  read about the situation on battista's post.

I think that because Pasqualino had family in North Shields he may perhaps have been able to explain regular trips to the area to wife Mary Elizabeth.  Perhaps this might be a case of me imagining skulduggery where  it may not exist - but I do think we should keep an open mind at this point.  Also, wasn't  Antonio Battista taken out of the workhouse at one point by a brother who was likely to have been Pasqualino.  I think this shows the latter was around.  I wonder what became of Loretto, Antonio and Bernard Battista who were the children of Pasquale and Marieta?

By the way Sophie, might it be worth you and battista posting the signatures on the Pasquale/Pasqualino marriage certificates so that RootsChatters might be able to compare these and check for any similarities?  If these two men are one and the same the signatures may provide some evidence.

Incidentally, regarding Antonio Battista - birth registered in September quarter 1909 - I am wondering why there are two entries on freebmd?  Volume 10b pages 232 and 262.

I am working nightshifts at the moment but when I can next get to the library I could have a look at some local directories of the time and see if anything of help is in there.

I am also thinking that it might be helpful if I look in the local school records of that time.  I think I need to work out which schools may have been near the addresses where they lived in the North Shields area.  School log books can sometimes contain good information about our ancestors.  My own  Grandfather's cousins attended the Murton Council School (early 1900s - North Shields vicinity) and when I checked the log books I found various interesting entries which showed things like that these cousins of my Grandfather were not always well behaved and were punished.  I also found that one had moved in with his Grandparents after widowed Mother had remarried and where she and new husband were living.  There was also an entry about this boy's Grandfather getting a fine for allowing absenteeism. (Although these logs  Murton (primary)don't show on User Guides they do have  have them so these were likely acquired after guides came out.)

I am just mentioning this to show that school logs can sometimes be very interesting and useful sources of information about our ancestors.   Of course, some logs might be exceedingly dull and not relate a great deal about anything.  I think these might be worth checking though just in case there might be any references to the Battistas  which might provide clues.  There may be nothing of note to report but I think this is definitely worth a try.  You will see that there are several North Shields schools shown on the Tyne and and Wear User Guides.

http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/pdf/userguide15c.pdf

I think I could also see if I can find anything on this Maria Loreta  you have mentioned.  You will no doubt remember on this thread that Elizabeth Battista (Giovanni's wife) is incorrectly recorded as 12 at death when she was actually in her forties  (freebmd) so I would not necessarily rule out Maria Loreta as not worth any further investigation just yet. 

I will also ask at the library to see if the staff may have any other ideas relating to addresses which we may not have thought of.  Give me a few weeks or so and I will see if I might be able to find out anything else.





Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 02 November 18 10:55 GMT (UK)
Marriage records:

Pasqualino Battista (confirmed son of Giovanni):

(https://i.imgur.com/IeU4hhB.png)

Pasquale Battista (the other one):

(https://i.imgur.com/PDNHaEd.png)

The bottom one is a bit pixelated, Sophie should have a higher quality scan.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 02 November 18 11:05 GMT (UK)
What I don't understand is why are the names and the age on the first marriage all messed up? If these two people are the same, I would expect the second marriage to have all the inconsistencies and "mistakes", as it would've been illegitimate. The marriage in 1910 has all the right details.

1906 marriage has Bernando for both fathers, a bit odd. Whatever the story is for this Pasquale, it is certainly confusing.

Pasqualino, son of Giovanni's last service date in the navy was 3rd of Dec 1920. Which might be an important date to figure out if there's any correlation between these two men.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 02 November 18 11:14 GMT (UK)
I just realised those records I posted must be transcribed, they don't have the original signatures on them?

This looks like the original signatures:

(https://i.imgur.com/g34KhId.jpg)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 02 November 18 11:43 GMT (UK)
I would hazard a guess that the document with 'original' signatures is from the Parish Marriage Register. As its an Anglican Church, the layout and format is the same as a civil cert (because it was the established church). That register would have been retained by the church - until such time as they deposited in the relevant archives.


The others have either come via the GRO or the local registrar. I 'think' (but may be wrong) that the register that the local registrar holds is a contemporary copy of the church register, it may or may not have also been signed by the participants ( I am unsure about that)  but not all local registrars photocopy the entry from their register onto the blank certificate like the GRO do (many still hand write them to order) so they may not have original signatures either.

A certificate issued by a local registrar says
" Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a register in my custody"



A copy of the  register held by the local registrar was made and sent to the GRO

Certs issued by the GRO these days 'look' at first glance to be contemporary as they have photocopied the register entry onto the cert., BUT
A certificate issued by the GRO says
" Certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a register of Marriages in the Registration District of {....} 

As the source document is a certified copy of the register, GRO issued certs will NOT have original signatures.

Boo

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 03 November 18 08:04 GMT (UK)
battista, thanks for putting up these images.

Boo, just to clarify does this mean that a GRO certificate will show a copied version of the original?  That is to say that signatures will appear in the style of the original signature?

Although, the signatures are not totally identical I think I can see similarities in written style.  Most noticeable is the jutting line to the left of the base of the letter 'P'.  There also appears to be a tiny loop on the inside of the 'B' on the Newcastle marriage on post 253 and the Wandsworth one on post 255.  Both these 'B's are open at the base.   The small final 'a' also shows a similar upward stroke at the end.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 03 November 18 08:29 GMT (UK)
Others will have more knowledge of this than me, but I checked both local registrars certs I have and GRO certs.
The GRO ones clearly state at the bottom that its an entry from 'a certified COPY of a register held at {district name}'. As such, I don't believe that a GRO issued cert can have original signatures.

The first image in the post (no background colour on the page) is definitely original signatures. Given that the body of the document is all in the same hand apart from the bride, groom and witness signatures and there is no background colour, I'd say that is from the parish register.

The other two are either GRO issued or local registrar issued and all the writing on each of them is in the same hand, plus the background colouring is a dead giveaway.

Added: meant to say I'd very much doubt that any attempt would be made to copy the 'style' of a signature. If a copy was being made the criteria would be accuracy of information, so that it could be certified as a true copy, they wont have put any emphasis on making it look the same. No scanners way back then and copying an entire register would have been time consuming.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 03 November 18 09:01 GMT (UK)
Fab idea about comparing the signatures RTL - I had already contacted the GRO about the first marriage, as this definitely is a copy that has been re-written out this year.  I am waiting to hear if it's possible to get a copy of the original entry.  As Boo rightly says, the last one Battista posted is an actual copy of the marriage banns from the second marriage and is Pasqualino's signature.  The first marriage was RC though so I don't know if its the same as CofE where the register is actually signed or if the priest fills it out.  If I can get hold of an original scan, it would certainly clear this up  :)

RTL - the two Anthonys on Freemb is a mistake.  The same document has been transcribed twice for some reason.  If you look at the images attached to each one they are the same, just one is more difficult to read and the page number has been transcribed wrong - 262 vs. 232.

Battista - I can definitely see where you are coming from concerning your expectation that the second marriage should have the inconsistencies.  However our Pasqualino is Pasquale on his birth certificate and also on the 1881 census aged 2.  Pasqualino is a diminutive of Pasquale I think?  So the name is entirely correct.  The age is out on the first marriage but by just 3 years and I think this could have been because of Marieta's age.. I have seen this with my own GGGfather Vincenzo - he lies about his age (as well as my GGGmothers) because she was so young (and already pregnant) and there was such an age difference (15 yrs).  I think it was common at the time because of changing social attitudes towards child protection (see my earlier post).  Marieta is just turned 11 on the 1901 census and the birth date I have for her from a descendant on Ancestry is Apr 1890 so this would make her not long turned 16.  It is possible Marieta was pregnant which forced the marriage but she lost the child.

Pasqualino's service record has been very useful - I actually did a spreadsheet (lol - I've got far too much time on my hands atm  ;D) with all of Pasqualino's stations versus the key dates in the two marriages/childrens births.  I will email it to you Battista - I can't find anything that would rule him out as not able to be in North Shields on and off, in the years prior to WW1 at least.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 03 November 18 09:31 GMT (UK)
Fab idea about comparing the signatures RTL - I had already contacted the GRO about the first marriage, as this definitely is a copy that has been re-written out this year.  I am waiting to hear if it's possible to get a copy of the original entry.  As Boo rightly says, the last one Battista posted is an actual copy of the marriage banns from the second marriage and is Pasqualino's signature.  The first marriage was RC though so I don't know if its the same as CofE where the register is actually signed or if the priest fills it out.  If I can get hold of an original scan, it would certainly clear this up  :)


 Its slightly more complicated if the marriage was non conformist. In my experience the RC parish marriage registers did not use the same format as the established church/civil records and signatures may not have been made in the parish register at all (though do sometimes mention the bride/grooms mother as well as the father). TWAS will have the relevant parish marriage register on microfilm though if they can be checked.
What does the cert you have say at the bottom? If it says its an entry from 'a certified COPY of a register held at {district name}' then I'd guess the GRO only have a copy register (and what you can see is a scan of that entry photocopied onto the blank certificate)

It may be worth emailing Newcastle Registrars and enquiring if their register includes original signatures and if so, if you purchase a copy from them will what you receive have those original signatures on the cert. Not all local registrars scan the entry and photocopy it onto the blank certificate, many still hand write them to order.

Boo

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 03 November 18 09:52 GMT (UK)
I have just had another possible idea! :D

Do either of you have Pasqualino's baptism entry?  Or do you know where he may have been baptised? Catholics are very good at cross referencing.

I have just recalled that when I found my own Dad's baptism at an RC Church, when at the archives, in the left hand margin was a reference to his marriage to my Mother at another RC Church.  They had actually married the first time in a registry office but the local priest was not happy about this and got them to go through a second ceremony.  Dad's baptism entry gave no mention of the registry office marriage - only the RC marriage entry details.

If I recall rightly, didn't Pasqualino's brothers have references to their future marriages in their baptism records which I found too?

If I can find Pasqualino's baptism (hopefully RC for this purpose) this may have his first marriage referenced if he was the one who married Marieta.  At that point in time he would have had nothing to hide in such a case.  So it might be possible that when/if he was the one who married Marieta the priest would have wanted to know where he had been baptised.  Then possibly this information may have been sent to that Church for the priest to cross reference marriage in Pasqualino's baptism entry.

This may have been why he not  marry Mary Elizabeth in a RC Church perhaps -  because of sticky questions which may have been asked by any priest.

Perhaps I could also check the marriage entry too just in case Pasqualino's baptism may also have been cross referenced on there. 

I will be able to check the next time I can get to the archives - as I have mentioned I am doing a run of nightshifts at the moment - but expect this archive trip could be fitted in at some point over next few weeks.

It might be helpful if you might know his date of birth so I can start searching from that point.  I really hope he was RC baptised - if he was we may be able to find out if he was Marieta's husband.

 

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Saturday 03 November 18 10:35 GMT (UK)
I have just had another possible idea! :D

Do either of you have Pasqualino's baptism entry?  Or do you know where he may have been baptised? Catholics are very good at cross referencing.

I have just recalled that when I found my own Dad's baptism at an RC Church, when at the archives, in the left hand margin was a reference to his marriage to my Mother at another RC Church.  They had actually married the first time in a registry office but the local priest was not happy about this and got them to go through a second ceremony.  Dad's baptism entry gave no mention of the registry office marriage - only the RC marriage entry details.

Like this? https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=801843.msg6596431#msg6596431
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 03 November 18 10:40 GMT (UK)

Do either of you have Pasqualino's baptism entry?  Or do you know where he may have been baptised? Catholics are very good at cross referencing.


Like this? https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=801843.msg6596431#msg6596431

The parish where the person was baptised would be contacted to check the register to make sure they had been baptised then the note was added to the baptism register

I even have one where the groom's baptism entry (in Liverpool) was annotated to show that he had married in Kitchener, Ontario.  So distance was not a problem :-)

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Saturday 03 November 18 11:37 GMT (UK)
@Tickettyboo Yes, you are correct. The first two records I posted were GRO issued, so are copies.


Not sure if I ever posted the image of the Chelsea Giovanni death, so here it is:

(https://i.imgur.com/1W3G9E1.png)

15 years off, born approx. 1860. Name is Giovani Batista (two ts instead of three). Death record though, so certainly could be inaccurate. Someone here (or elsewhere) said they looked up this death in the newspapers and he was named as Swiss-Italian?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 03 November 18 14:42 GMT (UK)
I don't have a baptism for Pasqualino but definitely another good idea - he was born in Numbers Garth, Bishopswearmouth. 

Battista - was the informant for that Giovanni death his wife Camila?  Have I got the right one?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Saturday 03 November 18 14:56 GMT (UK)
Battista - was the informant for that Giovanni death his wife Camila?  Have I got the right one?

The cert. Battista posted shows the informant was the Coroner for London (see column 7)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Saturday 03 November 18 15:31 GMT (UK)
I don't have a baptism for Pasqualino but definitely another good idea - he was born in Numbers Garth, Bishopswearmouth. 

Looking at a map of the location of Number's Garth, I'd hazard a guess that the nearest Roman Catholic church at the time would have been St Patrick's, followed by St Mary's.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 04 November 18 08:50 GMT (UK)
Thanks Jen - I didn't realise you could scroll across the image!  :-[. Shame there isn't anything definite on that certificate it certainly seems a possibility it could be our Giovanni.

Does Bishopswearmouth come under Tyne & Wear archives?  Would a baptism record be there?  I've also come across a few RC baptisms that record marriages next to them.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Sunday 04 November 18 08:54 GMT (UK)
Does Bishopswearmouth come under Tyne & Wear archives?  Would a baptism record be there?  I've also come across a few RC baptisms that record marriages next to them.

Tyne & Wear Userguides  https://twarchives.org.uk/collection/user-guides-and-information
Check on Roman Catholic registers.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 04 November 18 10:55 GMT (UK)
That sounds encouraging Boo!  I am so hoping that Pasqualino was baptised at an RC Church and has a well-documented entry!😁

Thanks Jen for the tips about which are the most likely Churches to look at first - this is very helpful and might save me some time when I can next go to the archives - hopefully this will be at some point in the next few weeks. 

The GRO gives this information on his birth registration:

Pasquale Battisto (sic)
1878 December quarter Vol 10A Page 546

I am really quite intrigued now to find out if Pasqualino was the husband of Marieta!
I also wonder if there may be any notes in the marriage entry which might shed any more light.  I am definitely planning on checking this out as well.  I do wonder if a Bernard Battista was really the Father of Pasquale, or alternatively if this might have been a mistake or even made up.  If this was made up I wonder what the reason may have been for doing this? 







Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Sunday 04 November 18 11:34 GMT (UK)
I don't have a baptism for Pasqualino but definitely another good idea - he was born in Numbers Garth, Bishopswearmouth. 

Just for the record here's the location of Numbers Garth  https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/440116/557291/13/100765 (use the zoom out button top left if the map doesn't appear)

Now completely obliterated - somewhere under the trees on the right-hand portion of this 'side by side' map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=54.9091&lon=-1.3760&layers=6&right=BingHyb

Here's what the layout probably have been like when Pasqualino was born  http://www.durham-images.org/public/ms/m16/m16sa4.html To look at the northern extent put your cursor in the centre of the top margin and click up, and do the same in the bottom margin to look at the southern end where it joined High Street East. There were certainly plenty of Public Houses around  :-X

Totally irrelevant to the search I know, but I can't resist a map  ::)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 06 November 18 16:32 GMT (UK)
Well, I have found Pasqualino's baptism.  Unfortunately, there are no added notes in the entry.  He was baptised at St Mary's RC Church in Sunderland (thanks again Jen, on advice for Churches - this did save time):

Microfilm 1541
Pasquale Baptist (sic)
Birthdate: 15 October 1878
Baptism: 31 September 1878 - I think this must have been an error and should have been written as October not September. Person who filled out entries wrote 31 September for several baptisms - however baptism after Pasquale's was for 2 November.
Parents: Joanni & Elizabethi Baptist (sic)
Note: Elizabeth's maiden name was not given as Lawson.  Archive staff member agreed with me that it looks along the lines of possibly 'Simmons'.
Address: Numbers Garth
Godparents: Dominic? Anu? & Jane Haley

I also looked at the marriage at St Andrews on 29 October 1906
Pasquale's Father may be named as Bernardi (?) but the writing is very small and initial letter does not really look like the 'B' of Marieta's Father's name.  It is definitely not Giovanni.
Pasquale is recorded as from North Shields.  Person who filled out entry wrote in 'Bernardi di' in the place where 'Marietam' should be from.  However, this was crossed over and 'Newcastle' written instead.  Marietam's Father recorded clearly as Bernardi di Carlo.
Witness Antonio's address given as 4 Argyll Terrace and Reggetta's as 6 Argyll Place.
This appears to have been just a Church entry and no signatures I believe.

I also tried to find a burial for Maria Loreta in Sunderland Cemeteries.  Strangely, could not find her.  I can't rule out I may have missed her or perhaps she may have been cremated somewhere or buried elsewhere perhaps.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 08 November 18 20:32 GMT (UK)
Thanks RTL for checking on those - the frustration continues!  I will say that the name Simmons in connection to Elizabeth Lawson is definitely familiar to me although I can't think how atm... my assumption is that she was maybe married before Giovanni.  Also clearly the person recording the marriages was making a few mistakes so this does give some support to the idea that Bernardo Battista as Pasquale's father is an error.

I am looking into a few leads at the moment - trying to connect the two Pasquale's by an address or by my latest idea, Godparents.  I have been going back through all the baptisms I have and noticed that Henry Leo had the same godmother as one of my Great Aunts, Lizzie.  I am hoping to find another of the cousins (from either my branch or the other brother Antonio's who has the same godparents as Pasquale's Loretto, Bernardo & Antonio.

In the above process I re-read a pile of photocopied baptism registers that I thought were just related to my branch and realised two of them are Giovanni's children William Armstrong and Vincent.  So they are RC baptisms (presumably from St Marys Cathedral as all of my branch were baptised there as they were all born in Stowell St) and very interestingly they were performed when the boys were aged 6 and 8.  I had records for the boys from ancestry but I now realise that they are actually christening records in Christ Church Tynemouth.  So firstly, why would the boys be christened and baptised.  Secondly the baptisms happened in August 1902 - a month after Henry Leo dies and three months before the children were admitted to the Workhouse - why did that happen?  There is a note in the left column that I can't translate - looks like 'Conditionalites'.  Could it just note that they were christened?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 08 November 18 20:33 GMT (UK)
Vincents baptism...
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 08 November 18 20:33 GMT (UK)
William Armstrongs baptism..
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 08 November 18 20:36 GMT (UK)
Oh and Mary Alice Whalen, their step sister was their Godmother.  I'm assuming Anastasia was RC and after loosing Henry Leo felt it was appropriate... but if raises the question as to where were the Whalens when Giovanni disappeared and the children needed them  ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 08 November 18 20:45 GMT (UK)
  There is a note in the left column that I can't translate - looks like 'Conditionalites'.  Could it just note that they were christened?

Conditional baptism https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=32704
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Thursday 08 November 18 20:48 GMT (UK)
Are you saying that when these boys were born they were baptised at Christ Church, Tynemouth?

If so then this is them being received into the RC church (Christ Church, as far as I am aware, was Anglican)
The 'conditionalites' or more usually 'sub conditione' indicates that the child had previously been baptised in some way - maybe at home in cases of danger of death, or perhaps in a church of a different faith or even no one knows for sure if they were baptised at all so we are making sure.
 
Baptism can only happen once, most of the churches agree on that, but the full sacrament of baptism, with the rites of the particular church can take place at a different date but is marked as such in RC churches as per the note on these boys baptisms. ( in Anglican churches there is often a note saying the baptism was 'private')
In effect they are saying they were (or may well have been) baptised but not according to the rites of this church so we've had the ceremony to comply with our faith.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 08 November 18 21:07 GMT (UK)
Yes Boo - they were christened then in Christ Church Tynemouth when they were born.  Thanks for confirming - I wonder why they weren't baptised RC when born?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 09 November 18 10:12 GMT (UK)
I agree Sophie, that it is frustrating that no additional notes appeared in the baptism record for Pasquale.  I would not be at all surprised if the two Pasquales do turn out to be one and the same.  We just need to find something which might support this. 

Incidentally, I have found another newspaper article which may be in reference to him.  In the Shields Daily News dated Wednesday 9 May 1894, a 'Pasquiline Batista' (sic) was named in an article after being charged with brawling.  He was fined 2s 6d.  Brawling seems to have been quite common in North Shields at that time.  I have found that some of my own ancestors were also brawlers, women as well as men.  So glad we are living in much more civilised times now. ;D

I recall now that battista related on another thread that Elizabeth's Step-Father was called Simmons.  So she must have decided to use his name as her maiden name at Pasquale's baptism.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794071.9

Also, I was wondering if you have ever seen this article.  I am guessing the person written about may be your ancestor?

Shields Daily Gazette - Wednesday, 9th April 1884:

'THE NEWCASTLE AUTHORITIES AND SUNDAY TRADING. - Before the Newcastle magistrates yesterday, Vincent Battista, an Italian, appeared in answer to a summons charging him with selling ice cream on the Quayside, on Sunday, the 30th of March.- The Mayor explained that it was the wish of the Bench that persons who sold refreshments ought not to be prosecuted.  It did seem hard that persons who sold refreshments on Sundays were prosecuted, while certain trades and the licensed victuallers were allowed to ply their vocations. - Supt.  Beattie said they had received instructions from the Watch Committee to prosecute in such cases.  The defendant was fined 1d, without costs.'

What an understanding Mayor. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 09 November 18 10:48 GMT (UK)
Hey RTL - I had not seen the one about 'Pasqulinine' brawling!  Is this available online?  I do have two about Lily being caught brawling on the Fish Quay, so yes women did their fare share!  She doesn't look the sort to get on the wrong side of  ;).

I had however seen the one about Vincent and I think this is my GGGrandfather.  I think he was well known and respected so hopefully stood him in good favour!

I have another bit of interesting info - with all the WW1 commemorations I have been going through the stuff I have on those ancestors who served and thinking much about them.  I revisited the Tynemouth WW1 Memorial website again and re-read the info on there... there is a transcript from a couple of other newspaper memorials dedicated to John George and one of them is from his wife Emma Anderson.  So it confirms this is definitely our John George and that he was very likely fibbing about his father Giovanni on his marriage certificate (Johan, Customs House Officer!). But, the transcription is as follows....
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 09 November 18 10:49 GMT (UK)
..."mourned by his loving wife and CHILD and sister..." 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 09 November 18 11:25 GMT (UK)
Yes, as well as this being at one of our local libraries you can also view the article on British Newpaper Archives.  If you can access this put 'Batista' into the search and scroll down on page 2 of the finds.  Judging by the newspapers I can almost imagine that brawling must have been almost a hobby at that time.   ;D ;)

I have come across quite a few Battista articles at the library.  They certainly appeared to be a fearless lot.  There is one about Lily when she was a witness during an inquest  as I recall.  Lily had hit the chap over the head who went on to kill her friend.  I think I would have wanted to run away but Lily was evidently not afraid to take him on when he turned up in a threatening manner.  I can't remember which paper edition this was in but it would be easy to find out again - it appears in the North Shields inquest booklet at the library and is on microfilm. 

There are also a couple of articles regarding James in the workhouse.  James was apparently put on bread and water and told to break stones as a punishment which had been decided upon by the Guardians for a 'serious' case of misconduct against him and a female inmate.  James refused and was taken off to court and was sentenced to hard labour in prison.  As he was being led away James was said to have called out to the Workhouse Master "Don't forget, you are not finished with me .. I will smash your neck for you yet."  I wonder if he was allowed back in the workhouse after that?  This is quite a dramatic article and this appeared in the Shields Daily News on Wednesday 5 September 1923.  It would be great if I could find something regarding Giovanni which might help to solve this puzzling case but I haven't so far yet in the newspaper .. but I live in hope.

It is strange how there appears to be much on John George relating to the Great War and less on Vincent.  There is a very good website called 'Every One Remembered' - John George is on this but not Vincent.

  https://www.everyoneremembered.org/?fbclid=IwAR1HE32WCYHb8CRE2KJXB44fKeQA0wdDO8aCFTb7lCBu5_-8lMyQ_WU8rTY


What a shame for John George's child to have lost their Father!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 09 November 18 12:05 GMT (UK)
"Note: Elizabeth's maiden name was not given as Lawson.  Archive staff member agreed with me that it looks along the lines of possibly 'Simmons'."

"I will say that the name Simmons in connection to Elizabeth Lawson is definitely familiar to me"

"I recall now that battista related on another thread that Elizabeth's Step-Father was called Simmons.  So she must have decided to use his name as her maiden name at Pasquale's baptism."

:) Ah yes, Simmons. Elizabeth Lawson's mother's second husband was George Simmons. She took her step-father's last name. This was why I couldn't find anything about her family for a while.

Pasqualino's baptism provides definitive proof that Elizabeth Simmons is the same person as Elizabeth Lawson. I was pretty sure before, but this is direct proof.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 09 November 18 12:08 GMT (UK)
Wow I would love to see these articles - particularly on James & Lily!  They give such an insight into these people.  I guess they had such a hard upbringing it made them hard.

I did have a subscription the the British Newspaper Archive but let it lapse in favour of one to Findmypast as their newspaper section is quite good.. but the ones you mention I've not come across in either.

Yes it is shame for John Georges child to have lost his father but it means there is another potential cousin if I can trace that line.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 09 November 18 12:10 GMT (UK)
The newspapers on FindMyPast is the same database as those on the BNA (they are both part of the same company)


Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 09 November 18 12:22 GMT (UK)
I did think that Boo - wonder why they aren't coming up for me?  I'm going to have another search.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 09 November 18 12:29 GMT (UK)
RTL said that the article about James and the workhouse
appeared in the Shields Daily News on Wednesday 5 September 1923

So filter by the year, month and day, also filter by the newspaper. Type Batista in the surname box, press search and up comes two articles.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 09 November 18 12:31 GMT (UK)
Found it - Battista is with one 'T' so perhaps that's why its never come up before.  Was thinking perhaps the reason Lily hasn't come up is because she was Spence or Guthrie, not Battista so I'll search those names.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 09 November 18 18:56 GMT (UK)
Just got a reply from the Newcastle Register Office - they can't/don't/won't provide copies of the actual register...

"Unfortunately there  is  no  provision  for  the  public  to  inspect  registers  once  they  have  passed  into the superintendent registrar’s custody"

What a shame  :(. So no chance of getting a copy of 'Pasquale's' signature to compare with Pasqualino's.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 09 November 18 20:43 GMT (UK)
What did you ask them?

If you asked if they, like the GRO , photocopy the original entry from the register they hold on to any certificate they issue, ( I don't have any certs issued by Newcastle Registrars to compare) or if they handwrite the certs to order,  then it sounds like they don't photocopy the original entries in which case you won't ever get to see the original signatures because, as they say, the public are not allowed to view the original registers they hold.

Boo

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 09 November 18 21:28 GMT (UK)
That is such a shame that the original records seem to be out of bounds.

battista, I am glad to hear that Pasquale's baptism find has been useful in providing more evidence of Elizabeth's background.

Sophie, I am glad you have been able to find James' articles - if not I would have posted these for you on here if you wanted.  He and the workhouse master don't seem to have got on well. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 13 November 18 14:38 GMT (UK)
Hmmmm... I have found a very tenuous link between 'Pasquale' and Marieta's son Loretto and Pasqualino......

1891 Census - Pasqualino (aged 12 with his mother, father and family) are resident at 83 Clive St, Tynemouth (with one other family, the Gianandrea's)

1907 - Loretto Battista is born and baptised, godparents Fransico & Joanna RANDO.

1911 Census - Francesco & Giovanna RANDO head resident at 82 Clive St, Tynemouth.  Appears to be a lodging house for Italian Seamen - Francesco's occupation is Boarding House Keeper.

I know there is a 20 year gap between Pasqualino being at Clive St and the Rando's (neither are there on 1901) but its another coincidence to add to the list  ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 14 November 18 10:13 GMT (UK)
Sophie, this is great that you are finding so many links and leads on this story.  I think you are such a great ally for battista in trying to get the mystery of Giovanno solved!  Who knows when one of these bits may be the means of leading to the solving of the puzzling case - so I think this is commendable that you are leaving no stone unturned. :D

I was able to call in but very briefly to the library and noticed in the Wards Directory for 1922 that

Rando F.  82 Clive Street  licensed lodgings

Frank Rando death registered at Tynemouth 1947 age 76 Vol 1b 642

Also, might this have been a son? Francesco Rando  December Quarter 1912 age 0  Vol 10b 311

I didn't have time to check but I suspect these two may likely be in Preston Cemetery.

Might Francesco have married Johanna Cavazzi in Newcastle in Sep quarter 1907?

ADDED: Yes, I think so as baby Francesco who died at Tynemouth was born in December quarter 1912 with mmn Cavazzi.  I wonder who parents witnesses may have been at their wedding - perhaps members of the Battista family?  Maybe even Pasquale?

I wonder if Giovanni might have died somewhere in the North East but perhaps registered under a slightly different name?  There seem so many variations of the name Battista.  Perhaps this might be an idea to look for any such possibilities in the future.  If this is what happened and he was registered with a misleading name it might still be possible eventually to find him in a death notice in either the Shields Daily News or the Newcastle Evening Chronicle.  That is if he did die in this area.  As Giovanni had a few trades - tailor, ice cream seller, musician - it might be possible that he ranged over the North East area and may have died elsewhere to Newcastle or North Shields, perhaps. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 14 November 18 11:54 GMT (UK)
Thanks RTL - you'll agree tat genealogy is an addiction!  ;D

I think you've found the right Rando's - they have a son called Guiseppe on the 1911 census. 

It makes sense to me that Pasqualino/Giovanni may have been involved in or linked to lodging houses of this sort.  My GGGfather Vincenzo was known for being a go between for the Italian immigrant community and the Italian Consulate - we have a letter from the consulate written to his widow expressing their respect and appreciation.  I am looking through all I have on my branch to see if the Rando name pops up anywhere.  Unfortunately the godparents of 'Pasquales' other sons Antonio and Bernardo were Di Carlo's so there's no lead there.  I do have the name Anthony Fanoni though, who witnessed Pasquale's marriage to Marieta.. perhaps that name will pop up in relation to our Battista's.

I agree that Giovanni's death could well have been registered under a name variation - there are a lot of options at the moment.  In this regard, I want to follow up John George's marriage certificate.  Having seen the newspaper memoriam from his wife Emma, I am sure that this is our John George - so would like to know more about 'Johan' and his occupation as Customs House Officer as well as his child.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 14 November 18 12:10 GMT (UK)
Yes, I wonder who was his child? ???

Yes, genealogy is an addiction and once started it can be hard to stop digging ..  unlike my experiences in my real garden. ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 18 November 18 13:12 GMT (UK)
Probably in no way relevant to the Battista story, Sophie but when I was at the archives on Friday I did come across the baptism for baby 'Franciscus' Rando born 6 September and baptised 9 October (1912) at St Cuthbert North Shields.  Godparents were Antonio De Carlo and (....tita?) De Carlo.  Address 82 Clive Street.  Parents married at St Andrew RC Newcastle on 11 September 1907.  His address 82 Clive Street North Shields and hers 5 Erick Street.  Witnesses were B ...? Nicolo & Matilda? Cavazzi.

I found these so thought I might as well post these on the off chance they may be of some relevance at some point in the future somewhere.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 02 December 18 20:20 GMT (UK)
Fab thanks RTL!  I think it will certainly make sense very soon!
Title: battista
Post by: sidco9 on Friday 18 January 19 18:21 GMT (UK)
Hello,

I am a descendant of Antonio, he was my great, great Grandfather. I have located and marked his grave in Elswick Cementary. Buried in the grave is his wife Christina and there first born Angelo.
I have also located Vincenzos grave as well as his daughters Nicola who is buried next to him. I have also located Antonios also, Vincenzos son, all graves are now marked and have flowers on them. If you want locations let me know.

Darren     
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 27 January 19 19:34 GMT (UK)
Hey all!

Hope you had a good xmas RTL and are well  :)

Nice you've joined the thread Darren.. looking forward to coming to Newcastle soon, meeting up and visiting Elswick Cemetery to see all your hard work x

I have a little update for the thread... had a Battista family get together last week and got my hands on quite a bit of new information. 

Amongst it all was a marriage certificate for Remigio Battista... his address at the time of the marriage in 1911 was 14 Princess Street... the same as Marieta De Carlo's address on her marriage to Pasqualino in 1906 (albeit no.16).  I think this address was probably another Italian immigrant lodging house.. judging by the 1911 census.  Still a bit tenuous given the 5 year gap and the generic nature of the premises however... another piece of evidence to prove the Battista's and the De Carlo's moved in the same close circles.

And another nugget to add to Giovanni's branches story... after John George's death his WW1 war pension was claimed by another woman, other than Emma Anderson!  So it seems he may have also had two families.... Isabella Wilson Griffiths noted herself as his "unmarried wife" and claimed for herself and her child.  So it seems he had two partners by whom he had two children  :o
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 29 January 19 10:24 GMT (UK)
Hi Sophie,

Yes, I am well thanks, after short health scare at the end of last year .. all okay.

I hope you are well too .. how exciting that you will be coming to Newcastle soon and will be able to visit the Elswick Cemetery and see all of Darren's hard work. 

Sophie, you are all so fortunate to have all this clan coming together on this family history of yours. :)  Hopefully, all this plugging away to find nuggets of information will one day pay off and what happened to Giovanni will finally be revealed.  I think this is the right thing to do as in my own experience of brick walls I know it can take a lot of patience and constant chipping away to finally make a break through.

Regarding John George's 'unmarried wife'  what an astounding revelation.  And the fact that he had two children.  It is so long ago, I presume these two will no longer be alive now.

Do you know more about Isabella?  Was she a North Shields resident? 

This might explain why the  notice placed in the newspaper after John George's death was from his sister and not a 'wife'.  These things happen, I suppose, especially in the days when divorce was not very acceptable.

Best Wishes for your forthcoming trip to Newcastle! 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Catchugenta on Sunday 03 February 19 11:57 GMT (UK)
Hi to all you Battista's out there or descendants thereof.  My gt grandfather was the Vincenzo some of you have mentioned/ His birth was about 1853 and his elder brother Giovanni was born about 1847, there was also a younger brother called Antonio. Antonio and Vincenzo lived near each other in Newcastle and Giovanni lived in North Shields.

I have heard recently from 3 different sources of family descendants after believing for many years that Vincenzo was a 'good guy' that in fact although there was a big funeral for him in 1900 with over 300 people attending and black horses with plumes and carriages, that he actually either ran away or something else happened to him! Some say he left his wife and children with big debts and another source from a different side of the family say he was in trouble with the Mafia!

Could it be that Giovanni who seemed to disappear overnight with no death records found, that they disappeared at the same time or maybe together? If any of you out there have stories or info on this please share.  cheers....Catchugenta
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 03 February 19 12:57 GMT (UK)
Hey Catchugenta!  Nice to have you join the thread :)

After our conversations the other day about Vincenzo, it crossed my mind too that maybe the two brothers mysteries are intertwined!  ???

I am in contact with another cousin in Australia (descended from Marianna and William Bell).. I'm going to message her and see if there are any family stories from that branch regarding Vincenzo's death.

Xx
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 11 February 19 11:48 GMT (UK)
I wonder if the two brothers may be intertwined some way too regarding the disappearance of Giovanni?  I suppose we will have to wait and see if anything else emerges.

There is an article in the Shields Daily News - 8 November 1906 regarding Lily Spence having been a witness at an inquest of her friend Jane Elizabeth Robson.  A Norwegian seaman 'Lyder Martin Larsen seems to have been implicated in the death and it seems he was the boyfriend of the latter.  He appears to have been a violent person.  They all seemed to have gone out together to the theatre with a man called William Sullivan.  I think this article might show that the Battistas (or at least Lily) may not have been mixing with the most safest of people.

May be linked - in 1905 a William Sullivan assaults a Francis Spence - this appears in Shields Daily News 12 July 1905.

Regarding the unmarried wife of John George - who has been mentioned - Isabella Griffiths Wilson.  An address is given of 70 Waterloo Rd, Blyth.  There is also a guardian of the child named - 'Elizabeth Robson'.  I do not know anything about this guardian, but I do wonder if this Elizabeth might be John George's sister Elizabeth Ann Battista who left the workhouse with her son John?  She may not be of course, but I am just wondering if there is a link.

I cannot access the Ward's Directories for Blyth but there may have been someone recorded in them under this address at that time - payments appear to have been started 1928/29. 

Also, I have recently heard a suggestion that Vincent Battista may have possibly served in the Great War as Frank Vincent Spence.  Possibly having taken on the name is his sister's husband.

 https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?firstName=Frank&initial=F%2BV&lastName=Spence&war=1

However, this is not confirmed as yet. 

Added: I think this must be him as this Georgina I think seems to be his sister, shown in link. :). Perhaps Georgina may have chosen his inscription.

This is very puzzling as this is different from the date of death of Vincent Battista who is commemorated in the Memorial Garden at Linskill - see photo I put up on post 168.  That gives date of death as 24.9.16. ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 13 February 19 09:33 GMT (UK)
Just an update on my previous post.

Another researcher has since contacted me to inform me of their belief that Vincent did not die in Great War.  They say Frank Vincent Spence was Lily's husband.  They also believe that Vincent did not die until 1956 death registered Newcastle.

However, I think this might not be Giovanni's Vincent but one of his brother's sons who died 1956.

I think more research is needed on the whole Frank/Vincent war death.  It is very strange that Frank Vincent Spence is recorded as Georgina's brother. Also Frank may have been in KSOB not Middlesex Regiment - although I suppose he may have swtched:

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/illustratedchronicleww1/21265796373/in/photolist-ypbLnB
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 13 February 19 11:11 GMT (UK)
A Vincent Battista died on 4th February 1956

Elswick Burial
Entry 92640
8 February 1956
Vincent Battista
62 YEARS
105, St Lawrence Square, St Dominic's
Section U   
No 420
Remarks: 18 down 7 East

Evening Chronicle - Tuesday, February 7th 1956:

'BATTISTA, Newcastle, 8 Ord Street (late of Sycamore Street), on Feb 4th (in hospital), Aged 62 years, Vincent, beloved husband of the late Margaret, Interment Elswick Cemetery on Wednesday, 2.30 pm, leaving residence 2.10 pm.  Friends please meet at Cemetery.  R.I.P.'
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Wednesday 13 February 19 23:16 GMT (UK)
The Soldiers Effects for Frank Spence (transcribed as Speuee ::) ) lists Sister & Sole Legatee Mrs Georgina Birmingham.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Wednesday 13 February 19 23:34 GMT (UK)
and there is a marriage Q4 1898 Wandsworth for a James BURMINGHAM and Georgina BATTISTA which is a possible?

The parish marriage record is on ancestry and says she was 20 and her father was John Battista, a tailor.
The witnesses both had the surname BURMINGHAM

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 14 February 19 00:07 GMT (UK)
I think the photograph of the F Spence from the KOSB is perhaps a different man as he was a PoW, and F Spence of the Middx Regiment G/11713 has no other service No's listed (his medal card is under Frank Spencer)

His service record is online includes a list of relatives  ;D

Father G Battista Deceased
Mother EAE Battista Deceased

Siblings:
P Battista 40 Royal Navy
W Battista 22 Royal Navy
J Battista 20 Northumberland Fusiliers
Georgina Birmingham 37, Ram Square Wandsworth
L Spence, 37 34, 3 Norfolk Street, North Shields
E ?? Moralee. 34, City Road, Newcastle

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Thursday 14 February 19 00:18 GMT (UK)
you beat me by a few mins Jomot :-)

Just to add to that if anyone searches for the record on ancestry
Frank Spence
regiment DukeofCambridge'sOwn (Middlesex) Regiment, Football Battalion
service no 11713

brings the record up top of the list

and the relatives list says no wife and no children

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 14 February 19 00:40 GMT (UK)
Sorry  ;)

I haven't been able to add anything to this since the very early pages but have been trying to keep up - so apologies if I've missed something - but I don't think E Moralee is one I've seen before.

Looking again I think it could be EA Moralee, and although I may be going off on a completely unrelated tangent there is an Ethel Ann Moralee in Jesmond in 1911 born South Shields:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMW-FJN

Baptism at St Hilda's, South Shields 4 Jan 1882 (born 14 Dec 1881), parents John & Annie Elizabeth

MORALEE, ETHEL ANNIE mmn MARSHALL - GRO Ref: 1882  M Quarter in OF SOUTH SHIELDS  Volume 10A  Page 662

If she's related I can't for the life of me figure out where or how!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 14 February 19 00:54 GMT (UK)
35 pages and 310 replies, plus a few of my distant relatives popping in! When I first posted this, I never thought there'd be so much information on the Battista family or locating living descendants. Thanks to all who have contributed  ;D

I've managed to get my hands on some original birth, marriage and death indexes from Cassino (San Germano). Unfortunately, births only go from 1809 - 1865, marriages 1809 - 1849 and deaths 1809 - 1839. While this won't be helpful for Giovanni, there are a lot of records here pertaining to Giovanni's birth, all of his siblings and potentially cousins, aunts, uncles, parents.

I've uploaded it to Google Drive, here's the link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qBngJ6K-gRv-BVUu4z0ILk7eQb2dGHfm?usp=sharing

Moralee doesn't sound familiar to me, although, this thread is very long.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 14 February 19 01:10 GMT (UK)
Whoever Miss/Mrs Moralee is, she is listed as a full-blood sister of Frank Vincent 'Spence'.  I'm hoping someone else can shed some light, or tell me I'm misreading it, as I'm mystified!

Ethel Annie Moralee's father petitioned for divorce due to her mother's alleged adultery with a John Edwin Starling.  I can't see any Battista connection.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Thursday 14 February 19 01:15 GMT (UK)
Wasn't there a sister called Elizabeth Ann?  There is a birth reg
Q4 1886  Tynemouth for Elizabeth Ann Battista, MMN Lawson

though I am struggling to find a marriage

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 14 February 19 01:26 GMT (UK)
The divorce file includes the 1867 marriage certificate.  Elizabeth Annie Marshall was 17 & the d/o John Marshall, Pilot.  Witness was Catherine Marshall.

The petition alleges the adultery started in 1881, so there is perhaps a question mark over Ethel's true parentage, but the only other person named was John Edwin Starling, who appears to have been born in Norfolk around 1853, and in 1881 was single, living in Westoe and a Marine Engineer.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 14 February 19 08:46 GMT (UK)
I am astounded at all the twists and turns in this thread .. what an intriguing story it all is ..

Regarding Vincent/Frank I suspect that the Frank of the KOSB who is shown in the photo (wounded and a prisoner and from North Shields) was Lily's husband.    I suspect Frank Vincent Spence of the Middlesex Regiment was Vincent.

However, why did he use Frank's name?  Or if I am wrong why was Frank claiming Vincent's relatives as his own siblings and parents?

Also there is the age of 21.  This would have been closer to Vincent's age than Frank's age.  When Frank married in 1903 he was recorded as 25 so in 1917 he would have been around 39.

I have checked the newspapers and I can't find any notices for either Vincent or Frank yet there are notices for John George.

Someone is missing - is it Vincent or Frank?  It just seems all a bit puzzling - I just can't figure what is going on or why.

And the Ethel mentioned - how does she figure into all of this? 

Over the past few days I have had people coming to me with various theories such as Vincent survived the war.  It has also been proposed by different people that FVS was either Frank or Vincent.  As I say, I think the latter.  Someone has also mentioned to me that there is no proof of Vincent having served in the war at all apart from the boards that are up at Linskill.  Presumably, his name is on there because his name would have been on the Tynemouth Roll  of Honour.  I have also heard a theory that Frank may have been estranged from Lily and that perhaps still being close to Georgina he out her down as his next of kin.  I think it does seem quite strange that he would claim the whole family as though he was Vincent.  I have also heard it suggested that Vincent may have been so grateful at having been taken out of the workhouse at one point he decided to start using Frank's name as his own.  I just think it is all quite mind boggling. 

Sorry for such a long winded post .. I just hope someone out there can figure this all out.

Yes, Battista who would have thought this post would  end up so long and still running.  Giovanni, Elizabeth Ann, non registered Baby John and now possibly either Vincent or Frank is missing!!   Also isn't it a bit bizarre that Elizabeth was recorded as transferred from Bolton Union but there are no records apparently to support this. ???

Still, a lot of information has been picked up along the way and this has brought your distant relatives into contact  - so all things to be grateful to Giovanni for.   ;D

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 14 February 19 11:24 GMT (UK)
I'm not at home at the moment so can't pull up the service record, but from memory the family information was completed after Frank Vincent's death and signed by a clergyman.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Thursday 14 February 19 11:39 GMT (UK)
I can see the service record. The form was the one completed by the named next of kin so the army could issue the plaque and scroll to the family.
Georgina Birmingham completed and signed the form and a clergyman countersigned it to verify her and the info.

So the info comes from Georgina Birmingham (who was named as his sister and next of kin by the soldier), not the soldier himself. The form was signed and dated 17th June 1919.
The L Spence, aged 34 of 3 Norfolk St., North Shields was listed int he section for Full Blood sisters.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 15 February 19 09:51 GMT (UK)
Thank you so much to all who are contributing on this... here are my thoughts....

Francis or Frank (Vincent?) Spence was Lily Battista's first husband and he died in the war.  Lily was close to her sister Georgina and I think the connection with Georgina as Franks sister is just she's his sister-in-law.  I have a record for Soldiers Died in the Great War 1914-1919 from Ancestry which says Frank was Duke of Cambridges Own regiment and notes his address as Wandsworth, London... this was Georgina and family's address.  Georgina was married to James Burmingham and they had five children.  I have started to find some records for the children - I really hope to trace this branch of the family sometime soon!! James was in the Navy, hence they moved down south.  I believe that James and Pasqualino would have know each other... as Pasqualino was also resident in Wandsworth at the time of his marriage to his first wife Elizabeth Macdonald and spent much time stationed in Greater London/Kent.

The E Moralee noted as a sibling has to be their sister Elizabeth Ann Battista... the one we have no trace of after leaving the workhouse in 1913.  Perhaps there is a marriage for Battista & Moralee between 1913 and 1917??

The connection with (Jane) Elizabeth Robson is a new and very interesting one... she was obviously a good friend of Lily's and it seems the guardian to John Georges illegitimate child!  John George & Lily were clearly close.   But yes Robson met a sticky end... there are lots of reports of violence for this crowd... not least this manslaughter as well as Lily herself brawling and even Lily being assaulted by her second husband Robert (Bob) Guthrie.

I also think the altercation between Frank Spence and William Sullivan is absolutely relevant - I believe that William Sullivan was the father of Lily's illegitimate son Willie (William John Battista) - I have a record somewhere which notes Willie as William Sullivan Battista which I need to find to corroborate this.....

The only thing I cannot get my head around is that the brother Vincent would take the name Frank Spence... I think they are definitely two different people.

I have Vincent (Crescenzo) Battista in 1911 in Chopwell Durham - he was taken from Tynemouth Workhouse to work as a miner there.  He would have been recruited I'm sure.. especially with the mining skills?  I have Lily as Lily Spence on the 1911 census and as married (not widowed)... it would great to find out where Frank Spence was in 1911... that might resolve the confusion.



Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 15 February 19 20:50 GMT (UK)
Though  the evidence as to whether or not the service record for "Frank Spence" is, or is not Vincent is sketchy  there is still evidence that it could be.
The list of blood relatives gives pause for thought at least, his parents and full blood siblings are all consistent with Vincent's family, his age at attestation etc are all plus points for it being Vincent who had, for whatever reason, signed up with a fictitious name.

But as far as I can see, the jury is still out.

Georgina Birmingham was named, on the register of soldiers effects as n.o.k. and sole legatee
There is a will registered  for 'Frank Spence, service no 11713
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ner/
NB: soldiers wills, in my somewhat limited experience, vary from 'I leave everything to xx, signed Fred Bloggs',  to more detailed wills which can confirm what you want to know. Unfortunately the only way to find out which sort this one may be is to order a copy (at a cost of £10).

The photo RTL found for a Frank Spence, KOSB, who was wounded and a POW is looking (in my opinion) to be fairly unlikely to be the husband of Vincent's sister, Lily (Orsolina)

I can't see a surviving service record, or pension record for a man of this name and regiment.

There is a medal card for a Frank Spence, KSOB, service no 8619 which indicates he was discharged, Class Z 24.3.19

The POW records (mainly lists with not much info other than name and regiment) show a Francis Spence of KSOB, who was born Wallsend, POW in Germny
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/607737/698/4272/

and there is a pension record card on Fold3 for a Francis Spence, KSOB service no 8619, discharged 25.3.1919 ( a day out, but who's counting!), living at 76 Sep** St. ,Newcastle - that address is not clear (to me) but can be seen here if anyone has a suggestion, to help check the absent voters registers:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ciskcbatg3xtcu3/address.jpg?dl=0

Says he was born in 1877, was married and had suffered a gunshot wound to his left arm. It states the final pension award was in 1922.

As Orsolina /Lily remarried in 1918, to Robert Guthrie, she either re-married bigamously OR the above Francis Spence was not her husband - I am trying to keep an open mind as anything seems to be possible with this family :-)

Not sure if that is helpful or not :-) This family presents multitudinous problems but, if they were mine, I'd keep everything in the possibles box until and unless I had found some concrete evidence one way or another.


Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 15 February 19 21:25 GMT (UK)
I am not going to get a long time to post as I am en route to nightshift.

I find it very puzzling that Frank's details 're his family present as though they are Vincent's.  When Francis married Orsolina in 1905 he was 25.  This Frank 12 years later is down as only 21.

My posts on Lily's two marriages giving all entry details are on pages 10 and 12 on here.  I know this is getting to be a very long post indeed. ;D

're Lily's son I agree that his Father is likely to have been William Sullivan.  I found a Holy Trinity marriage for him a good while back and his Father was recorded as John William Sullivan Battista - Seaman.  I can't remember exactly but I did find something else back then which suggested to me that William may have been a married man.

Thanks Boo, I will be able to look at your post better tomorrow on way home with all the details .. now I am just trying to keep one eye out the window so I don't miss my stop. ;D



Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Friday 15 February 19 21:26 GMT (UK)
and there is a pension record card on Fold3 for a Francis Spence, KSOB service no 8619, discharged 25.3.1919 ( a day out, but who's counting!), living at 76 Sep** St. ,Newcastle - that address is not clear (to me) but can be seen here if anyone has a suggestion, to help check the absent voters registers:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ciskcbatg3xtcu3/address.jpg?dl=0

I think this says Septre Street, which is possibly meant to be Sceptre Street.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 16 February 19 02:18 GMT (UK)
Thanks Jomot, Sceptre St is right.

1918 Absent Voters list 76 Sceptre St, Elswick has
Spence,  Francis  KSOB service no 3619 (rather than the 8619 on the pension index card, but that's possibly misread/ transcribed from the form ) who is listed as a Prisoner in Germany.

He and his wife, Ann, were listed on the electoral registers at that address from 1920 onwards and are still at that address in 1939 on the National ID Register (by which time he is recorded as Francis E) and the last time I can see him on the electoral register at that address is 1958

So I'd say that discounts the KSOB man in the Illustrated Chronicle photo as the husband of Lily

Boo

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 16 February 19 10:44 GMT (UK)
Oh well, we can rule that man out then.

I see on Francis' marriage entry to Orsolina (Lily) his Father is named as Francis - Master (Mariner?).  There was a Francis Spence who died 28 November 1912 who had been married to an Elizabeth Granger at St Paul, Cullercoats (better known now as in Whitley Bay.  This man was a mariner and is buried at Preston Cemetery in plot number 11434.  A Francis Spence was birth registered in the Tynemouth in the December quarter 1874 mmn Grainger.  I wonder if this one might be the one who married Lily?  If so he would have been 31 and not 25 when they married.  He might have wanted to close the age gap, I suppose.

It is a shame that at that time they weren't recording by section area.  If Francis Spence (Snr) had a grave stone there may have been a later 'in memoriam'  added for possible son Frank after he got killed in the war. 

Sophie, I think the Robson women are two different people.  The one who was Lily's friend (Jane Elizabeth Robson) and whose inquest Lily attended as a witness, died in 1906.  The story was in the Shields Daily News on 8 November 1906.

The Elizabeth who seems to have become guardian of John George's child must have been around after the war to be awarded a pension.

I have been trying to find how Elizabeth became 'Moralee'.

Assuming she is the Elizabeth who was discharged from the workhouse in 1913 and that she really was unmarried at that point - there were 3 Moralees who married an Elizabeth.  Might she have had a previous marriage before becoming a Moralee, I wonder?

There was a John Moralee who married an Elizabeth Hewitt in September quarter 1916 Tynemouth - W114 .. This code indicates a non- Anglican venue.  Might they have married at a registry office or perhaps a RC Church such as St Cuthbert's, North Shields?  This is likely not Elizabeth as she seems to have had a child with mmn Hewitt.

In September quarter 1917 two John T Moralees each married respectively an Elizabeth Patterson and an Elizabeth Jennings. 

It is a puzzle though as I can't find a marriage for an Elizabeth Battista to start with.

Curiously, regarding the mention of earlier  Marshalls - there is an article for a James Battista when he seems to have been in the in Reading area staying in a lodging house.  He used a false identity as George Marshall and another name and when he was caught out by police he said he had been using his Mother's name. 

(Berks & Oxon Advertiser - 16 November 1928)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 19 February 19 11:56 GMT (UK)
Hi Sophie,

On page 22 post 197 you have commented that you have not come across another marriage for James Battista after his marriage to Dorothy Playford.  I think I have found evidence of an attempted one:

Northern Daily Mail - Wednesday, 20 October 1937

'DIDN'T KNOW WIFE WAS ALIVE
Newcastle Man Acquitted on Bigamy Charge
James Battista, 41-year old labourer, of Westmorland Road, Newcastle-on Tyne, who went through a form of marriage with a 17-year old girl while his wife was alive was found not guilty of bigamy at Newcastle yesterday.
Mr Justice Atkinson, instructing the jury to return a "Not guilty" verdict said there was no evidence to show that Battista knew his wife was living when he "married" for the second time.
Battista said he had been told in 1927 that his wife was dead but had not made any further enquiries.'
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Tuesday 19 February 19 12:17 GMT (UK)
Good find RTL,
Sophie, that article is in the online newspapers (BNA and FindMyPast) as Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail 20 Oct 1937, page 6, bottom of col 5

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 19 February 19 13:15 GMT (UK)
Sophie, this is the marriage entry I believe for Lily's illegitimate son.  Perhaps you might like to have this to add to your many records:

Holy Trinity, North Shields
Entry 50
John William Battista & Ann Elizabeth Bridges
His age 33
Her age 27
Widower & Spinster
Seaman
His residence: 21 Spencer Street
Her residence: 19 Lower Rudyerd Street
Fathers:
John William Sullivan Battista - Seaman
(?) Bridges - Labourer
Witnesses: William (?) (Emery?)
Minnie Menuna Mudd
All signed
By Banns
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 19 February 19 14:29 GMT (UK)
Shields Daily News - Wednesday 7 November 1906

'SEEKING ANOTHER MAN'S WIFE
At North Shields Police Court today, William Sullivan, a young man residing at 6 Herron Street, South Shields, was summoned for using threatening language towards a miner named Francis Spence, who lives at 23 Church Street.- Complainant stated that on the 1st inst., the defendant and another man came to his house and demanded to see "Lily," who was his (complainant's) wife.  They left, and when they got downstairs the defendant attempted to strike him, and said he would "swing for him."  - A nephew of the complainant said he heard the defendant threaten his uncle.  He told him that so long as he lived with his (complainant's) wife he would follow them.  Defendant denied the charge, and told the magistrates that the reason he went to the house was to ask the reason why Mrs Spence, who had lived with him had left him.- Mrs Spence was called, and said she lived with the defendant because of her husband's ill-usage.  She denied that the defendant threatened her husband. - The magistrates bound him over in his own recognaisances of £5 to keep the peace for 6 months.'

Shields Daily News - Wednesday, 12 July 1905

'Assaults
William Sullivan, who made his 11th appearance was summoned for having assaulted Francis Spence and was fined 20s and costs.'

Sophie, I am of the opinion still that Vincent Battista assumed the alias of 'Frank Spence' and was named by his (Vincent's) sister Georgina on his war grave as 'Frank Vincent Spence'.  It is my belief that something may have happened to the real Francis Spence who was the husband of Lily. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 19 February 19 15:36 GMT (UK)
The next time I can get to the archives I will re-check the signature of Francis on marriage to Orsolina (Lily) and compare to the signature made by Frank on his enrolment as Great War soldier.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 19 February 19 15:38 GMT (UK)
WOW  :o

Firstly I am struggling to process all this!!!  It's amazing what is being found and the mysteries surrounding this branch of the Battista's  :o

Secondly I have to admit that for some reason I completely missed Frank Spences service record and the fact he has listed Giovanni and Elizabeth as his parents!!!!!!  :o ???   I now see the massive question mark over this mans identity.  Brilliant idea about checking the signatures RTL x

Thanks so much RTL, Boo and Jomot for all the info... it surely can't be long before this starts to make sense.  I am going through all my info on my ancestry tree to see if any old info might now fit into place.

Regarding the William Sullivan being Lily's son's father - RTL.. the marriage certificate was absolutely the record I was thinking of to prove that.  These new newspaper articles re the issues between Sulivan/Spence/Lily are amazing and are adding such flesh to the bones of this!!!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 19 February 19 15:49 GMT (UK)
Oh and I've had to order Frank Spences Will!!  As well as John Georges!  Says it could take up top 10 days for them to become available... lets hope they have some new info  ;)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 19 February 19 16:19 GMT (UK)
Also RTL re the latest article about Sullivan/Spence it notes Spence as being a MINER... which we know Vincent Battista was from his discharge from the Workhouse and also the 1911 census......
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 19 February 19 16:22 GMT (UK)
Hi Sophie,

On page 22 post 197 you have commented that you have not come across another marriage for James Battista after his marriage to Dorothy Playford.  I think I have found evidence of an attempted one:

Northern Daily Mail - Wednesday, 20 October 1937

'DIDN'T KNOW WIFE WAS ALIVE
Newcastle Man Acquitted on Bigamy Charge
James Battista, 41-year old labourer, of Westmorland Road, Newcastle-on Tyne, who went through a form of marriage with a 17-year old girl while his wife was alive was found not guilty of bigamy at Newcastle yesterday.
Mr Justice Atkinson, instructing the jury to return a "Not guilty" verdict said there was no evidence to show that Battista knew his wife was living when he "married" for the second time.
Battista said he had been told in 1927 that his wife was dead but had not made any further enquiries.'

Blimey they were all at it!!  ::)  ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 20 February 19 22:34 GMT (UK)
That's great Sophie that you have sent for the wills - these might reveal something more hopefully. 

When I can next get to the archives and check the signatures I will also check to see if there might be a photo of William Sullivan in the Police identification book.

I wonder what became of him? 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 26 February 19 11:03 GMT (UK)
Just for the record, I have had a look at the original signature of Francis Spence on his 3 June 1905 marriage at St Augustin, North Shields and have compared this to the signature made by 'Frank Spence' on the signing up paper made during the Great War.

The capital F at the beginning of the names are similar but I do not think overall these signatures were made by the same hand.

It would appear that the original Francis Spence goes missing.  What I would be interested in ruling out is if he may have married bigamously.  Marriage locator shows that a Francis Spence married an Ann Fenton in the June quarter of 1910 at St Augustine, in Fenham in Newcastle.  During the 1911 census this Francis appears to be living with an Annie Spence and he is a coal miner.  Lily's husband Francis was also a coal miner.

Unfortunately the marriages for St Augustine at Fenham do not go up this far at Tyne and Wear Archives.  I was wondering if someone who can get to Northumberland Archives might be able to look up tis marriage?  Lily's husband Francis Spence had a Father also called Francis Spence who was a 'Master Mariner' according to the 1905 marriage.  Perhaps the 1910 marriage might also show this if these two Francis' are one and the same?

Otherwise, who knows what may have become of Francis.

No photo of William Sullivan is in the Police Identification album for North Shields.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: c-side on Tuesday 26 February 19 16:30 GMT (UK)
Just confirming on here, RTL,  that I will check out the marriage at Woodhorn tomorrow

Christine
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 26 February 19 16:55 GMT (UK)
That would be marvellous Christine.  Thank you for so much for your help once again.

I would like to rule out possible bigamy - if this is not Francis I do not have a clue what may have happened to him.  There appears to have been understandable bad feeling between him and William Sullivan and Francis is absent from Lily's household in 1911.  Possibly it might be because he may have been with Annie Spence in Newcastle.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 27 February 19 10:35 GMT (UK)
Christine .. If the marriage does record a Father Francis Spence who was a mariner .. might it possible if there is time for the signature of the groom to be compared to the 1905 one which took place at St Augustin, North Shields on 3 June 1905.

I understand if you might not have time to make such a comparison, I know you have very important work of your own to do and you are looking up the 1910 marriage as a kindness.

It is just if the 1910 marriage shows a Father as also Francis who was a mariner - matching signatures would tick all the boxes.

Not to worry, as I say if you don't have time - I am just very grateful that you are making the time to look up the 1910 marriage. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: c-side on Wednesday 27 February 19 11:02 GMT (UK)
Just caught me before I left!

Will do
 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 27 February 19 11:13 GMT (UK)
Thank you so much! :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Wednesday 27 February 19 16:33 GMT (UK)

Not sure if the Battista descendants have come to any conclusion about Vincent having enlisted in the name of Frank Spencer, but I think the recent newspaper snippets about Lily lend some weight.

IF this had been her husband, its quite possible that she may have had quite a lot to say (possibly in the courts) about his sister getting his effects, back pay and war gratuity as despite the info given on enlistment if it WAS her husband then Lily would have been his legal next of kin and it amounted to around £20.
Which was a fair amount way back then.
:-)


Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: c-side on Wednesday 27 February 19 20:56 GMT (UK)
So disappointed - the only records for St. Augustine, Fenham held at Woodhorn are baptisms 1945-1983.  :'(

So, if neither TWAS nor Woodhorn have the marriages it seems likely that they are still at the church.

Christine
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 28 February 19 09:43 GMT (UK)
That is disappointing Christine, but I very much appreciate anyway that you were willing to help.  Thank you so much.

Yes, Boo I think the same as you re Lily not claiming if Frank Vincent Spence was really her husband.  Since his parents are recorded as Giovanni and Elizabeth Battista
and the siblings are the ones Vincent had I do tend to think this was Vincent.  It is all very mysterious!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 28 February 19 09:58 GMT (UK)
http://www.donmouth.co.uk/local_history/great_war_football/munitionette_players.html

Hey Sophie and Battista clan - I see there was a munitionette called Grace Battista in Newcastle who played football in charity matches during the Great War.

See below for details of matches played:

http://www.donmouth.co.uk/local_history/great_war_football/munitionettes.html
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 28 February 19 10:02 GMT (UK)
http://www.donmouth.co.uk/local_history/great_war_football/munitionette_players.html

Hey Sophie and Battista clan - I see there was a munitionette called Grace Battista in Newcastle who played football in charity matches during the Great War.

See below for details of matches played:

http://www.donmouth.co.uk/local_history/great_war_football/munitionettes.html

Could be Grace Battista, daughter of Vincenzo, niece of Giovanni. She was born in 1897, seems to be the correct age?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 28 February 19 20:18 GMT (UK)
I have checked the GRO site and Grace's mmn was Armstrong, so would she not have been Antonio's daughter?

http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1910&qtr=2&vol=10b&page=91&search=search

One thing I am wondering about the 1910 marriage of Francis Spence is that this is covered under the Marriage Locator website.  I wonder where the person got the records from since Tyne and Wear and Northumberland Archives don't hold this marriage record.  Might the person have actually gone to the Church to work their way through the registers, I wonder?

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: c-side on Thursday 28 February 19 22:29 GMT (UK)
I don't think they use the church records.  There is some clever way of calculating the church from the GRO records.  It was once explained to me but was very complicated and I've forgotten how  :-\

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Friday 01 March 19 00:10 GMT (UK)
The Marriage Locator site explains how they do it, and it seems they do view the registers:

"Each [volunteer] chooses a Registration District to work on, and visits the County Record Office..."

http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/principles.html

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 01 March 19 00:17 GMT (UK)
I have checked the GRO site and Grace's mmn was Armstrong, so would she not have been Antonio's daughter?

Vincenzo is married to Mary Jane Armstrong, Antonio is married to Cristina (Fancredi) D'Andrea.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 01 March 19 07:54 GMT (UK)
Some more great work - thank you RTL, Christine et al  :D

Just to confirm Grace Battista is definitely Vincenzo's youngest daughter.  She worked at Elswick Munitions with her 3 of her sisters - Eliza, Lizzie & Marianna.  They all played for the football team!

"mmn" is mothers maiden name - Mary Jane was Mary Jane Armstrong.

Vincenzo's son Antonio married a Margaret Grace and their eldest was also called (Margaret) Grace known as Grace.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 01 March 19 10:30 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the clear up on whose daughter Grace up - this was my confusion.

Jomot, I find this puzzling that the Marriage Locator researchers visit the county record offices - Christine and I have both visited our nearest archives and the records are not there. ???

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Friday 01 March 19 10:49 GMT (UK)
It does seem odd, doesn't it?  According to Genuki the records are with Northumberland Archives, and  if Marriage Locator have accessed them then presumably they must have had them at some point  ???

"Fenham, St Augustine. Baptisms 1892-1993 and marriages 1892-1993. For earlier records see Benwell, St James"   

Added: Is this the same church?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/408266?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 01 March 19 10:54 GMT (UK)
Sophie, I know James Battista travelled .. might this be him using an alias in a boarding house?  Charged with riding a bike without a light?

Berks and Oxon Advertiser - 16 November 1928

'DEFENDANT WHO "GAVE HIMSELF AWAY."
SMART WORK BY P.C. MORTIMORE

A man whose name and address were given as George Marshall, of 28 Steven Street, Reading, was charged with riding a bicycle without a light on September 27th.  He pleaded guilty and P.C. Mortimer went to Reading and found the defendant in a common lodging house, using another name, and it had been found that his correct name was James Battista.  The defendant had given the police a lot of trouble.
In a statement the defendant said he was using his mother's name.
P.C. Mortimore added that the defendant at Reading first denied all knowledge of the offence.  The witness then asked why he had not returned from a Turners Court man.  The defendant replied that the man was coming to Reading for it.
Mr. Rich: He gave himself away
A fine of 10s. was imposed and the defendant apologized for the trouble he had given.'

I am wondering after reading of all these (possible) accounts of  alias names in this thread and after reading a little while ago Catchugenta's post (no 302)  if Giovanni may have become embroiled in some type of trouble and may have had to 'disappear' under his own name and start using an alias himself?  That is if he wasn't the Giovanni who went on to marry Camilla.

If he used an alias I would imagine it might have some similarity to his own name or some connection to him.  I think he might have had to have move out of the North Tyneside area at least.  Possibly the closest he might be able to stay would be Sunderland.  I think he may have kept reasonably close to some of his family members so he may possibly have moved as far as Wandsworth.  It might be that when Giovanni died he may have been buried under an alias.

This is all just speculation, of course.  However, I think I wouldn't rule out that there may have been an alias now when proceeding with this search.

I think  it is interesting that only the Battista siblings went into the workhouse and no one from the Whelan side.   

I think it is also interesting that when Anastasia died there is no mention of her as a Battista or as wife of Giovanni in her death notice.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 01 March 19 11:02 GMT (UK)
Thank you Jomot.  I have just seen your post after posting my long one.

Christine, I wonder if it might be possible just whenever you may next be at Northumberland Archives to mention to the staff about what Jomot has posted on here and ask what may have happened to this records?

It would be fantastic if they do turn out to be there after all and they might not have been catalogued or something.

I do think it would be good to find out what happened to this Francis and if the 1910 marriage might be the one who previously married Lily.  I do voluntary war research so I do have a personal interest in unraveling all this.   

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 01 March 19 11:07 GMT (UK)
Whoo Hoo!  I have noticed on the link that Jomot has kindly given that this does appear to be the Church. 

Tickettyboo, might there be any chance that you might possibly be able to look this marriage at the Family History Centre whenever you might next be able to go.  Totally, understand if you are too busy but it you could look this up it would be marvelous.

I think it looks like the marriages might be there.  Thank you very much Jomot :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 01 March 19 11:21 GMT (UK)
So disappointed - the only records for St. Augustine, Fenham held at Woodhorn are baptisms 1945-1983.  :'(

So, if neither TWAS nor Woodhorn have the marriages it seems likely that they are still at the church.

I'm not sure they can still be at the church, since it was declared redundant by the Church of England in 1993 and was then acquired by the Coptic Church as their Cathedral dedicated to St George & St Athanasius.

If the church was declared redundant you'd think the records would all have been removed and placed in the Archives  :-\

Edit I've just seen Jomot's edit  ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 01 March 19 11:23 GMT (UK)
Whoo Hoo!  I have noticed on the link that Jomot has kindly given that this does appear to be the Church. 

Tickettyboo, might there be any chance that you might possibly be able to look this marriage at the Family History Centre whenever you might next be able to go.  Totally, understand if you are too busy but it you could look this up it would be marvelous.

I think it looks like the marriages might be there.  Thank you very much Jomot :D

This one?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPHF-FBPR

Of course I'll look at it RTL.
I am hoping to go either next Tuesday or the Tuesday after. Will report back as soon as I can. Have added it to my list.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 01 March 19 12:16 GMT (UK)
The listing of Anglican Registers on the Woodhorn website indicates that Woodhorn 'does' hold these records? (though I have seen errors on that list before)

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ngi/

EDIT   TWAS user guide to parish registers seem to have marriages on microfilm too?
billed as Newcastle (Fenham), St Augustine of Hippo  m 1892-1901


 Family Search give a reference for the registers they filmed as being:
Morpeth Record Office: EP 144/1-3, 5-8, 25-28

Which of those references may contain the marriages I have no idea, but I'll look at the FHC images as soon as I can.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 01 March 19 12:18 GMT (UK)
I am wondering after reading of all these (possible) accounts of  alias names in this thread and after reading a little while ago Catchugenta's post (no 302)  if Giovanni may have become embroiled in some type of trouble and may have had to 'disappear' under his own name and start using an alias himself?  That is if he wasn't the Giovanni who went on to marry Camilla.

If he used an alias I would imagine it might have some similarity to his own name or some connection to him.  I think he might have had to have move out of the North Tyneside area at least.  Possibly the closest he might be able to stay would be Sunderland.  I think he may have kept reasonably close to some of his family members so he may possibly have moved as far as Wandsworth.  It might be that when Giovanni died he may have been buried under an alias.

This is all just speculation, of course.  However, I think I wouldn't rule out that there may have been an alias now when proceeding with this search.

I think  it is interesting that only the Battista siblings went into the workhouse and no one from the Whelan side.   

I think it is also interesting that when Anastasia died there is no mention of her as a Battista or as wife of Giovanni in her death notice.

(https://i.imgur.com/QJG9s3Q.png)

On Anastasia Battista's death certificate it states "widow of Giovanni Battista". I believe the Whelan children must have ended up with their mum after Giovanni disappeared, the Battistas went to the workhouse instead.

What's interesting to me is the informant was J. Slavin (John Slavin), who was the husband of Anastasia Battista's daughter (also named Anastasia). A. Battista died in 1934, her daughter died 12 years earlier in 1922 (death certificate and death index confirm the Anastasia who died in 1922 was the one married to J. Slavin). Now, two things are of interest to me...

I think it's certainly not out of the question Giovanni left his family and went by another name. The most likely scenario to me is that he went back to Italy. Unfortunately, his home province does not have their records digitized yet and the FamilySearch records only go as far as 1839 for deaths in his town.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 01 March 19 13:29 GMT (UK)
Firstly, Boo - thank you so much for letting me know that you are willing to look up the marriage.    :DThere is no rush.  Whenever you can do this will be fantastic.  I am intrigued as to what became of Lily's Francis.  This might be him.

Hi battista,
 
I hope Giovanni did go back to Italy because then this might make things a little easier in the long run and one day you may have your answer when things are digitized further down the line.  I suppose he might have gone to Italy to find work and then hopefully return with his family.

This might be the case.

However, when I am trying to solve difficult family history puzzles such as this I try my best to put myself in the shoes of the people involved.  Sometimes this has helped me when I have been researching.  Although, your scenario might be the right one .. I do wonder why in the circumstances the Battista children went into the workhouse.  From what I have learned about the Tynemouth workhouse I think this was one of the better ones but I don't think people stayed there for too long if they could help it.  If he went to Italy I think the family could have stayed together - perhaps Anastasia or one of the older girls could have looked after the children and then whoever else was able might have gone out to work.  Domestic work and mining seems to have been quite widely available.  Weren't some of the boys re-baptized before going into the workhouse.  Perhaps this might have been because the Whelan side wanted to make sure they were safe in a sense spiritually in case anything happened in the future.  Sometimes as we all know people died in the workhouse because they did not have the constitution to withstand the limited diet and hard work.

Wasn't Anastasia a rate payer?  This suggests to me that she may not have been too badly off.  I once came across a thank you notice in a newspaper following a funeral of a relation which appears to have been put in by one of the Whelan girls.  In my experience, I don't tend to find evidence of very poor people putting thank you notices in the newspapers.  It is little things like this which make me think that the Whelans may not have been too badly off and all pulling together I don't quite understand why most of the children went in to the workhouse.  I hope I don't sound like I am coming across in a judgmental way, as I certainly don't mean things like that.  It is just I am puzzled at why they seem to have gone their separate ways and quite quickly following on from Henry Leo's death at which Giovanni appears to have been present. 

I think psychologically this must all have been very hard experience for the children following on from their Mother's death.  Getting a step-mother/new family, going into the workhouse and likely being split up based on sex and age then having siblings go separate ways - Wellesley etc.  They were certainly dealt a bad hand in life at the start.

I do tend to think something drastic must have happened prior to the workhouse.  However, I do hope I am wrong and that Giovanni might have gone back to Italy. 

The death notice with no mention of public mention of Anastasia as Giovanni's wife is also an interesting point.  I do wonder if there might be a grave stone for Anastasia in All Saints Cemetery in Newcastle.  I know she is buried in section B and is in the same grave as her daughter Anastasia.  battista, when you were making enquiries a long while back did you ever find out if she might have a grave stone?  If so, I wonder if there might be any reference to Giovanni on there?

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Friday 01 March 19 21:51 GMT (UK)
I think he did die shortly after he was last seen, if not, I guess the only other likely thing is going under an alias. If he did go under an alias, I think it'll be very unlikely we'll ever track that down.

Could've gone back to visit his family in Italy, died on the way, there or on the way back perhaps. When those records have all been digitized, I guess we might find out.

"I have looked in the records for Anastasia Battista and can confirm she is buried in B UNCON-1041 at All Saints cemetery, however there is no headstone on the grave." - Bereavement Services, Newcastle
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: c-side on Saturday 02 March 19 08:53 GMT (UK)
Going back to the 'missing' marriages - I shall ask them again on Wednesday, get them to check more thoroughly.

I also have a distant cousin who does these marriage searches - I shall ask her what happens if the church records are not available (I'm curious now). It could turn out that it is one she did as she heads up here about twice a year to do them!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 March 19 10:30 GMT (UK)
Thanks, battista for letting me know that there is no grave stone.  If there was I would have popped along at some point as this cemetery is on my bus route to and from work.

I still think it might be possible one day to discover what became of Giovanni although this is not proving easy at all.  Hopefully, he might emerge in the updated digitized records one day.  Or he might even be discovered in the burial records over here - possibly under a different name.  There might be some clues which might be able to identify him.  After all, when 'Frank Victor Spence' died there have been clues which show something is not right.  If he was really the brother-in-law of Georgina, he could not be attributed with the family members of the Battistas.  If he was really Vincent then why does he have a different name?  It almost goes without saying it is impossible for two men to morph into one. 

Sometimes, when I am looking at burial records especially Elswick I sometimes come across an entry for an unidentified body which has been found.  Although, hopefully Giovanni won't have been one of these unidentified ones.  You would think if he just went missing someone in the family might have reported it to the police and if the latter thought that one of the unidentified bodies might have been him a family member might have been asked to come and identify it. 

This is all very puzzling what happened to Giovanni but I think there is still hope.

That would be good in you could ask about the records Christine.  I am curious too as to what may have happened to them.  It was disappointing to find the other day that the marriages at Tyne and Wear Archives for St Augustine only go up to 1901 whereas on the Marriage Locator website the June quarter for 1910 is represented so someone must have got their hands on them at some point.

I have just been thinking Boo, on the link you have provided Ann's Father is mentioned as Henry Fenton but there doesn't seem to be a mention of the groom's father.  I hope it turns out that Francis named a Father on the marriage.  I hope we will not get thwarted again in trying to find out who this man was. :-\

https://www.flickr.com/photos/illustratedchronicleww1/21265796373/in/photolist-ypbLnB

It might be coincidence, that there were two people called 'Francis Spence' who were in the North Shields area at one point and who were both miners - the mining industry was huge in this area at the time - but it will be good if things can be established one way or the other.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 02 March 19 10:36 GMT (UK)


I have just been thinking Boo, on the link you have provided Ann's Father is mentioned as Henry Fenton but there doesn't seem to be a mention of the groom's father.  I hope it turns out that Francis named a Father on the marriage.  I hope we will not get thwarted again in trying to find out who this man was. :-\


This link? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPHF-FBPR

It says that his Dad was Francis Spence, its separated into  two panels, one for her details and one for his.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 March 19 10:48 GMT (UK)
Really Boo?!! :D

You are good at this FamilySearch stuff - I must be doing something wrong as I can't seem to get to two panels.  I do believe you though.  This is very exciting news.  Surely, this has got to be him.  It will be great to hear if he is also a mariner.  If so, I think we might have our man.  I am not too bothered about age as I have reasons to believe that Francis made his age younger when he married Lily in 1905.  Ages seem to have been very flexible in those days.  I just wish I could see a signature as well to compare to the 1905 marriage.  Even so, if it turns out his Father is Francis Spence and a mariner - surely this would just be too much of a co-incidence.  No hurry Boo,  but I am looking forward to hearing from you further on this after you have got to the Family History Centre in the next few weeks.

"Watch out, Francis Spence! you can run but you can't hide!"   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 02 March 19 11:01 GMT (UK)
Apologies Boo!  I have found it just by clicking on Francis' name.  His Father is indeed Francis according to this record. 

Bear with me on all this .. I can be a bit hopeless at times...I had better not give up my day job .. :-[ ;)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: c-side on Saturday 02 March 19 16:13 GMT (UK)
I should have pushed them harder at Woodhorn last week - the marriage records ARE there!  It wasn't my cousin who did that marriage challenge but she knew who did and word has just come back.

Sorry for the delay folks but I should have an answer next week.

Christine
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 03 March 19 13:20 GMT (UK)
This is very kind of you both - Boo and Christine - that each of you are willing to look up the marriage when time permits.  I am grateful to you BOTH for this kindness regardless of who manages to do this look up.  If possible it would be good to have a comparison of signature to 1905 marriage.

And to think just a few days ago it was looking like this marriage had gone missing!!   
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Tuesday 05 March 19 14:53 GMT (UK)
Okay so I have been to the FHC this morning
Marriage 2nd April 1910 at the Parish Church in the Parish of St Augustine in the County of Newcastle-upon-Tyne
entry 26
Groom: Francis Spence, age 28, Bachelor, miner,
address: 20 Gainster(?? am unsure about that word) Street, Father: Francis Spence, mariner

Bride: Ann Fenton, 25, Spinster, no occupation recorded,
address:110 Brighton Grove, Father: Henry Fenton, Brass Finisher

By Banns

both signed
witnesses: James [?H]aley, Elizabeth Jane Haley

When I tried to download the image, I got a message saying that, because of contractual agreements with the record holders, downloading the image is not allowed.

I compared the groom's signature to the one on the service record for the man who is 'possible/likely' to be Vincent who died in WW1 and, in my opinion, its not the same.


Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 05 March 19 19:06 GMT (UK)
I think this particular Francis Spence is the son of Elizabeth and Francis Spence. Francis was a mariner, born in India.

Here is the family in 1881  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-SJ6X

The family apparently includes a Frances Spence, daughter, born Howdon.

However looking at the 1891 census (RG 12 / 4223/ 70/ 12)  it is clear that this is an error, because in the household in that year is a 16 year old Francis, born Howdon.

Looking at the 1911 free index on GR, Howdon was the birthplace of Francis who married Ann in 1910.

The marriage shows Francis was a miner, and doing a free search on the 1911, this matches.

This also matches the occupation of Francis in the 1939 register, where his birth date is given as 1874, which matches with the birth registration of Francis Spence, 4q 1874, Tynemouth 10b, 159. Howdon was in Tynemouth Registration District.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Tuesday 05 March 19 20:28 GMT (UK)
I think this particular Francis Spence is the son of Elizabeth and Francis Spence. Francis was a mariner, born in India.

Here is the family in 1881  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-SJ6X

The family apparently includes a Frances Spence, daughter, born Howdon.

However looking at the 1891 census (RG 12 / 4223/ 70/ 12)  it is clear that this is an error, because in the household in that year is a 16 year old Francis, born Howdon.

Looking at the 1911 free index on GR, Howdon was the birthplace of Francis who married Ann in 1910.

The marriage shows Francis was a miner, and doing a free search on the 1911, this matches.

This also matches the occupation of Francis in the 1939 register, where his birth date is given as 1874, which matches with the birth registration of Francis Spence, 4q 1874, Tynemouth 10b, 159. Howdon was in Tynemouth Registration District.

and is likely to be the Frank Spence that was in the KSOB (see posts 320 and 323)

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 05 March 19 22:37 GMT (UK)
I think this particular Francis Spence is the son of Elizabeth and Francis Spence. Francis was a mariner, born in India.

Here is the family in 1881  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-SJ6X

The family apparently includes a Frances Spence, daughter, born Howdon.

However looking at the 1891 census (RG 12 / 4223/ 70/ 12)  it is clear that this is an error, because in the household in that year is a 16 year old Francis, born Howdon.

Looking at the 1911 free index on GR, Howdon was the birthplace of Francis who married Ann in 1910.

The marriage shows Francis was a miner, and doing a free search on the 1911, this matches.

This also matches the occupation of Francis in the 1939 register, where his birth date is given as 1874, which matches with the birth registration of Francis Spence, 4q 1874, Tynemouth 10b, 159. Howdon was in Tynemouth Registration District.

and is likely to be the Frank Spence that was in the KSOB (see posts 320 and 323)

Boo

Having checked everything through again I have no doubt at all that the Francis Spence who married Ann Fenton in 1910 was still living in Newcastle in the mid 1950’s.

Francis and Ann (Fenton) had three children in Newcastle between 1920 and 1924 (freeBMD).
One of them was with them in 1939 going by the free index to the 1939 register.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 06 March 19 09:30 GMT (UK)
Firstly,  many thanks Boo for going along to the Family History Centre yesterday and doing this look up on my behalf.  I really do appreciate this so much.  :)

I now strongly tend to believe that Francis did commit bigamy with Ann and that my hunch about this is right. 

I agree with  the other information which you both (Boo and Jen) have provided.  I think this Francis's Father who was the mariner died in North Shields in 1912 and is buried in Preston Cemetery.  I have all the information but I do not have my notebook to hand at the moment.  I believe this Francis who married Lily and Ann as it would seem, had parents who married at St Paul, in Whitley Bay.  (Francis Spence and Elizabeth Granger/Grainger).

Just a few of my thoughts on why Vincent may have used an alias of Francis's name...

Perhaps for some reason Vincent was in trouble of some sort and perceived he was under some sort of threat.  He may have felt it was expedient/safer to disappear under an alias - to be hidden/invisible as Vincent Battista.  Perhaps he used Francis' name because Francis himself could be in trouble if it all came out about the bigamous marriage.  Francis might have been sent to prison and his family left unsupported.  I think Francis would have  been an ideal candidate to use the identity of as  he was in no position to make waves if it came to it. 

I know this is just my speculation and speculation is not fact.  I just like to try to think about what may have been the scenario. :)





Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 06 March 19 11:55 GMT (UK)
RTL, please forgive me, but I am confused.

Boo said this (reply 323)

Thanks Jomot, Sceptre St is right.

1918 Absent Voters list 76 Sceptre St, Elswick has
Spence,  Francis  KSOB service no 3619 (rather than the 8619 on the pension index card, but that's possibly misread/ transcribed from the form ) who is listed as a Prisoner in Germany.

He and his wife, Ann, were listed on the electoral registers at that address from 1920 onwards and are still at that address in 1939 on the National ID Register (by which time he is recorded as Francis E) and the last time I can see him on the electoral register at that address is 1958

So I'd say that discounts the KSOB man in the Illustrated Chronicle photo as the husband of Lily


RTL, you agreed with this in the next posting (324)

Oh well, we can rule that man out then.

Looking at all the evidence the man in question, who served in the KOSB, was clearly the one who married Ann Fenton in 1910. Apart from all the other evidence, the marriage is noted on his service record.

But, having ruled him out as a potential husband for Lily in reply 324, you now seem to be saying that he did marry her after all?

Sorry if I've got wrong  :-\
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 06 March 19 12:33 GMT (UK)
No , Jen you have not got that wrong.  I did rule him out at that point but after this started to have second thoughts.  That was why I asked for this marriage to be looked up.

Perhaps I should have posted though to say I was having second thoughts about that comment - rather than just asking for a marriage and signature check if possible.

It seems a bit of a coincidence that there would be two Francis Spence associated with the North Shields area, both miners, both with Father's called Francis who were mariners. 

I wasn't questioning that someone of this name married Ann Fenton.  I just wanted to find out Father's name and occupation.
This corresponds with what is on marriage record with Lily.  Father also fits with marriage, death notice and burial I have come across too.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Wednesday 06 March 19 13:52 GMT (UK)
There is no dispute that there are many similarities for the Grooms of both marriages, which makes it 'possible' they are the same person and the second marriage 'may' be bigamous. Proving that is a much more difficult task.

The Francis Spence who married Ann Fenton in 1910 checks out (as JenB posted) as highly likely to be the son of Francis Spence and Elizabeth Grainger whose birth was registered in 1874, Tynemouth District.
One of the Spence-Fenton children , born in 1914 was John William Grainger Spence which is definite plus point.

I've scoured this thread and other than the Francis Spence marriage in 1905 to Lily, which indicates that the groom was born c1880, I can't (though may have missed it) see any other record for this Francis Spence tying him into Lily and giving info re birthplace/age.

Other than the fact that he married in the North Shields area is there any indication that he was born in that area?
If there isn't then, to get more info to decide whether these two marriages were for the same person or not, the search for another Francis Spence would have to stretch over a much wider area?

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 06 March 19 22:53 GMT (UK)
Hi!  Have been reading all this with great interest!  I am also hopeful RTL that all this can be unravelled, not least because of everyones tenacity and determination.  Massive thanks to Boo, Jen and Christine and as always to RTL.

A little update from me... I spent last weekend in Newcastle actually meeting some new Battista cousins!  Nothing major to report from them as yet, they are a different branch to Giovanni.  However, there is loads of interest and it is a huge family so there is bound to be some new information to come soon.

I visited Elswick Cemetery to see the graves of many Battista's there, which have been found and marked by one of my newly friended cousins.  Very poignant to stand by the graves of my Great Grandfather and my Great Great Grandparents.  I also went to All Saints and can second Battista in confirming Anastasia definitely doesn't have a headstone.  Another note re her death, the burial register has her as Anastasia Whelan alias Battista  ???

Also went to T&W Archives and spent a few happy hours there looking through their treasures.. the most important fact to be found was the burial for Pasqualino Battista (Giovanni's eldest) who is in Preston Cemetery along with his sister Lily.  That will be a trip for my next visit I think.

Sadly I don't think there will be any headstone for any Battista's of that generation... a possible consideration concerning the Whelan's having any means.... if Anastasia and her daughter Anastasia being buried together had any why didn't they have a stone  ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 07 March 19 22:02 GMT (UK)
Hey all, will have to eventually wrap my head around the Frank Spence stuff.

I'm not entirely sure if this was already in the thread (having a hard time searching over mobile), but would anyone happen to know how to locate Pasqualino's (son of Giovanni) baptismal record?

Birth date: 16 OCT 1878

I'd like to see if he was baptised as Pasquale or Pasqualino.
Birthplace: North Bishop Wearmouth
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Thursday 07 March 19 23:17 GMT (UK)
Could this be Pasquale?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLZR-6LV

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 07 March 19 23:32 GMT (UK)
Could this be Pasquale?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLZR-6LV

Boo

That certainly looks like him. Although, I wonder why all those names are so butchered. I wonder if I could get a copy of the original.

Thanks Boo! Sometimes I forget to use FamilySearch...
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 08 March 19 08:12 GMT (UK)
Regarding names being 'butchered'. At a guess, its probably something do do with accents. The priest was likely Irish, the father was Italian and they were living in the north east which has an accent of its own :-)

Add in the fact that its an RC Church and the register was written with latinised names they did reasonably well :-)

As that transcript has a baptism date of Sep 1878 and a birth date of 15 Oct 1878  you can possibly chuck bad writing into the mix too. (Baptism before birth is an unlikely scenario)

It looks like you can view the registers at an FHC. If the contractual agreement also allows download I'll see what I can do next time I go. Though our local one is only open to non members on Tuesdays and its not always possible for me to get there every week so that could take a couple of weeks.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 08 March 19 11:00 GMT (UK)
Massive thanks to Boo, Jen and Christine and as always to RTL.

I am very much an 'also-ran' in this search. It's RTL who is leading the charge!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 08 March 19 14:38 GMT (UK)
Hi battista,

I know this is getting to be a really long thread now but I did go to the archives a while back to locate this baptism.

You can see this on page 31 post 272 on here. 

Jen kindly advised on this which helped me locate Church more easily.  Team work!  :) ;)

If you would like a copy of original Tyne and Wear Archives staff say they charge £7.  They say to email if so, giving name, place and very importantly, date of baptism.

You commented on this on post 284.  As it is such a long thread though I don't blame you for forgetting. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 12 March 19 14:19 GMT (UK)
http://donmouth.co.uk/womens_football/blyth_spartans.html

Someone has just informed me that 'G. Battista' (Grace) is also shown on this site.  Her football team (Armstrong- Whitworth) played against the Blyth Spartans on 5 November 1918.

(Takes a lot of scrolling to get to it).
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Tuesday 12 March 19 14:58 GMT (UK)
http://donmouth.co.uk/womens_football/blyth_spartans.html

Someone has just informed me that 'G. Battista' (Grace) is also shown on this site.  Her football team (Armstrong- Whitworth) played against the Blyth Spartans on 5 November 1918.

(Takes a lot of scrolling to get to it).

To avoid the scrolling press CTRL and F and type Battista in the search box that pops up (takes you straight to it ) -  CTRL F works on any page of text.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 13 March 19 10:21 GMT (UK)
Thanks for this Boo - I did not know about this way of avoiding scrolling so this has been helpful.  I don't think I can do this on the Kindle but I can see that I can do this on a computer.  I am sure this will be quite helpful to me in the future trying to find things on-line. 

Incidentally, a local football historian who I was talking to yesterday told me there are likely to be photos of the Armstrong Whitworth team in local newspapers such as the Illustrated Chronicle.  I had a quick check and sure enough in one edition of the Illustrated Chronicle dated Monday, 29 October 1917 there were photos of this team and their opponents in the Wallsend Slipway team.  I would have no idea though which girl might be Grace Battista in the photographs. 

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 19 March 19 13:32 GMT (UK)
Another little snippet found recently at the North Shields local studies from the Tynemouth Union Minutes 1913-14 on page 115.  The excerpt is from 'Minutes of Committee brought up and confirmed at the Meeting of the Board on the 3rd July 1913.

' "WELLESLEY" TRAINING SHIP
The Clerk submitted notices from the "Wellesley" Training Ship as to the discharge of the following boys, viz:
W. A. Battista, on the 6th May, to the Royal Naval School of Music, Portsmouth.
James Hogg, on the 12th April, returned on account of physical unfitness for sea life.
James Potter, on the 27th May, physical unfitness for sea life.'
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 19 March 19 14:14 GMT (UK)
http://readbooks.best/21067112/the-munitionettes-a-history-of-women-s-football-in-north-east-england-during-the-great-war.html

Grace Battista the Newcastle Great War footballer is mentioned in this book:

'The Munitionettes A historyof women's football in North East England during the Great War' by Patrick Brennan

The book shows a very good photo of the Armstrong Whitworth team.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 23 March 19 11:48 GMT (UK)
I have found something else in relation to the Battista family.  This below is from the Tynemouth Union Minutes Volume 1923-24 at North Shields local studies.  The entry about James Battista is on page 258:

'At a Meeting of the House Sub-Committee (Works) held at the Poor Law Institution, North Shields, on Wednesday, the 8th day of August, 1923 at 3 o'clock in the afternoon ..
.. ENA M. CLARKSON (29),
The Clerk reported that an inmate named Ena M. Clarkson (29), who has previously had two illegitimate children, was in an advanced state of pregnancy and that the putative father of her child was another inmate named James Battista (23), a married man whose wife was living in North Shields.
Resolved:- "That in accordance with the provisions of Article 35 of the Poor Law Institutions Order, 1913, James Battista be punished as a refractory inmate by confinement in a separate room for 24 hours on a diet of bread and water, after which the Master arrange for this man to be employed on a task of stonebreaking."

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 24 March 19 15:32 GMT (UK)
Also on the subject of James Battista - there is a very long article in the Shields Daily News dated Monday September 22 1919.  It is about a reunion event of old Wellesley boys at the Tynemouth Cricket Club.  At the end of the article is a list of old boys who won honours.

A ...  'J. Battista 2nd N.F.  M.M.' is on the list.

So it would appear from this that this could very well be James Battista and that he won the Military Medal!

I don't think this will relate to John George Battista as he was with the 1st/6th Batt. Northumberland Fusiliers.  I suppose I might be wrong.  This might be worth looking into if possible to ascertain which J. Battista won the Military Medal.  This is quite an achievement.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 25 March 19 09:17 GMT (UK)
Also on the subject of James Battista - there is a very long article in the Shields Daily News dated Monday September 22 1919.  It is about a reunion event of old Wellesley boys at the Tynemouth Cricket Club.  At the end of the article is a list of old boys who won honours.

A ...  'J. Battista 2nd N.F.  M.M.' is on the list.

So it would appear from this that this could very well be James Battista and that he won the Military Medal!

I don't think this will relate to John George Battista as he was with the 1st/6th Batt. Northumberland Fusiliers.  I suppose I might be wrong.  This might be worth looking into if possible to ascertain which J. Battista won the Military Medal.  This is quite an achievement.

Not John George, he was killed in action in 1916.

The London Gazette lists the awarding of the Military Medal to:
Private R. Battista (Newcastle-on-Tyne), 235473, in 1918
Driver C. Battista, R.F.A. (Newcastle), 830509, in 1917 

I can't see anything for a J. Battista.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 25 March 19 10:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Jen,

Thanks for this.  I did wonder if John George may have received the MM posthumously, if this was not for James.  However, since my post yesterday and seeing your post today, I have been in contact with someone who I thought might be able to shed some light on this.  He has told me exactly the same as you and he has said that he believes that this is just a mistake on behalf of the newspaper at the time in reporting that a 'J. Battista' had received the MM.

I have just looked again at the Wellesley book by Brian Godfrey.  At the back is the list of the Wellesley Roll of Honour with names of old boys and when they were discharged.

There is a 'J. Cattista  July 28th 1915 2nd TR Bn'

I wonder if this is an error and should be J. Battista (James)?

Jen, do you know if a Cattista won the MM?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 25 March 19 11:42 GMT (UK)
There are no entries at all for 'Cattista'.

I've looked again can't find any award to a J. Battista (unless his surname was totally mangled)

There is a medal card for a James Battister, Private Northumberland Fusiliers, 89966. On this is states he was awarded the Victory Medal, but then it says 'forfeits under A.O. 298/20'.

The two Military Medals I mentioned earlier were awarded to Remegio Battista and Celesta Battista.

I will be happy to be proved wrong, but I wonder if James 'awarded' himself the M.M. for the sake of the newspaper article. They would be most unlikely to bother to check if this was correct.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 25 March 19 12:32 GMT (UK)
Thanks again Jen.  I wonder what he got the Victory Medal for?  This sounds like quite an achievement too.  I also wonder why he then had to forfeit this?  Perhaps some misdemeanor? 

Perhaps you may be right that James may have reported himself as having won the MM to the reporter of the article.  I agree that they would hardly be likely to check or even retract this later on.  The article was such a lovely, feel good one and I doubt they would want to alter from any of it after having gone to press.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 25 March 19 12:36 GMT (UK)
Thanks again Jen.  I wonder what he got the Victory Medal for?  This sounds like quite an achievement too.

Not my area of knowledge at all, so I will stand to be corrected, but I think it was standard issue to someone who had served in the armed forces in WW1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Medal_(United_Kingdom)

It was only awarded to someone who had also won either the British War Medal or the 1914-15 Star, and in this case the card indicates he'd also been awarded the British War Medal.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 26 March 19 12:41 GMT (UK)
Thank you Jen for this and for the link.

Again something else found in relation to James.

Here is another entry from the Tynemouth Union Minutes (Volume 1915-16) at North Shields library, local studies:

Page 176

'CHILDREN SUB-COMMITTEE (re Accounts)
At a Meeting of the Children Sub-Committee (re Accounts) held at the Union Institution, North Shields, on Thursday, the 19th day of August 1915 at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. ..

..  JAMES BATTISTA
A notice of discharge from the Wellesley Training Ship was submitted in the case of James Battista, a boy previously chargeable to the Guardians, who had been placed as Messroom Steward on the S.S. "Westonby" at a salary of £4 per month all found. ...'
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 26 March 19 15:56 GMT (UK)
Could Giovanni have been living possibly much later than thought!! :o :o

Tynemouth Union Minutes 1914-15 (Volumes at North Shields Local Studies)
Page 28 entry re James Battista

'Children Committee
At a Meeting of Guardians acting as temporary Children Committee, held at the Scattered Homes, Earsdon, on Thursday, the 16th day of April, 1914 at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. ...

... JAMES BATTISTA (15).
Resolved: "That the powers and rights of the parent of the following child, now chargeable, be and they are hereby vested in the Guardians of the Union until the said child attains the age of 18 years or until this resolution is amended or rescinded, in accordance with the provisions of the Poor Law Acts 1889 and 1899, viz:-
James Battista (15) - Deserted by father.  Mother dead." '
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Tuesday 26 March 19 20:36 GMT (UK)
Now that is interesting!  If Giovanni deserted the family then he could be anywhere under any name.  Maybe that chap in London was him after all.....
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 27 March 19 08:59 GMT (UK)
Yes, I agree Jomot.  Perhaps he might be that chap in London or perhaps he went back to Italy, after all. 

Those Union minute books are fascinating to read. 

I wonder what the story may have been behind waiting twelve years from when James was three until age fifteen before making him 'chargeable' to the Guardians?

I wonder if they had been trying to find Giovanni all that time?  They must surely have got the information from family that he had deserted.  At least this entry suggests that his death was not the reason the family went into the workhouse.

I have more entries from these Minutes to add for Battista descendants and will be adding these when I get more time.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Wednesday 27 March 19 11:41 GMT (UK)
I wonder what the story may have been behind waiting twelve years from when James was three until age fifteen before making him 'chargeable' to the Guardians?

Hi RTL
I don't think that the phrase 'now chargeable' means that he had just become chargeable, more that he was chargeable at that time, ie currently chargeable.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 27 March 19 15:29 GMT (UK)
Yes, Jomot I think you are right. 

Just to catch up with  some finds from the Tynemouth Union Minutes I am adding some entries below.  Not that this relates in any way to the goal of finding Giovanni.  However, since I came across these I might as well add in case they might be of interest to someone out there.

This was taken from the Minutes of '29th day of May 1913  Page 88':

.. 'WILLIAM A. BATTISTA
A notice was submitted from the Captain Superintendent of the "Wellesley" Training Ship, stating that William A. Battista, who had previously been rejected for the Royal Naval School of Music, Portsmouth, had now been admitted on trial on being specially recommended by him.
Resolved "That the thanks of the Committee be tendered to Commander Kit Kat for his efforts on behalf of this boy.'

This was from the Minutes of 1st February 1917 Page 316:
.. 'JAMES BATTISTA
The Clerk reported that this youth having lost his kit, had been to the "Wellesley" Training Ship where they had provided him with a fresh one and had succeeded in placing him as a messroom steward at a wage of £7.10.0d per month.
(Approved)'

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 01 April 19 09:52 BST (UK)
Hi battista & Sophie & Battista Clan,

https://www.troubador.co.uk/bookshop/history-politics-society/out-of-italy/

You may be interested to know about the above book - if you are not aware of this already.  I came across this book yesterday at Newcastle library in the local studies department.

There is a very good photo of Vincenzo Battista on page 104.  It is a studio portrait and he is looking very smart in a suit and trilby style hat.  Also, all three brothers are written about - Giovanni, Vincenzo and Antonio.  Vincenzo's grand funeral is referenced with at least 300 people attending.  It is also mentioned how Giovanni and Vincenzo were some of the first southern settlers in the region and how instrumental they were in helping others.  Apparently, both Giovanni and Vincenzo helped someone called Giambattista Lertoria set up his ice cream business and became close friends and associates of organ grinders' boss Nicola Dipreta. Also referenced is Vincenzo's confectionery shop in Gallowgate and Giovanni's street music business and penny ice cream business in Tynemouth.  The feature ends with that all the brothers had numerous children and that the Battista clan is now one of the largest clans of Italian descent now on Tyneside.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Monday 01 April 19 09:59 BST (UK)
Hi battista & Sophie & Battista Clan,

https://www.troubador.co.uk/bookshop/history-politics-society/out-of-italy/

You may be interested to know about the above book - if you are not aware of this already.  I came across this book yesterday at Newcastle library in the local studies department.

There is a very good photo of Vincenzo Battista on page 104.  It is a studio portrait and he is looking very smart in a suit and trilby style hat.  Also, all three brothers are written about - Giovanni, Vincenzo and Antonio.  Vincenzo's grand funeral is referenced with at least 300 people attending.  It is also mentioned how Giovanni and Vincenzo were some of the first southern settlers in the region and how instrumental they were in helping others.  Apparently, both Giovanni and Vincenzo helped someone called Giambattista Lertoria set up his ice cream business and became close friends and associates of organ grinders' boss Nicola Dipreta. Also referenced is Vincenzo's confectionery shop in Gallowgate and Giovanni's street music business and penny ice cream business in Tynemouth.  The feature ends with that all the brothers had numerous children and that the Battista clan is now one of the largest clans of Italian descent now on Tyneside.

Wow this is amazing, thank you so much. I'm very interested in reading this! :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 01 April 19 10:15 BST (UK)
You are welcome battista.  I think it must have been fate that I found it as I was looking for something else when I came across this.  Even though I have no Italian ancestors I felt I should pick this up and thumb through when I saw it.  How amazed I was to see the photo of Vincenzo!  He looks incredibly smart looking - the photo appears to have been taken at a studio in Northumberland Street which is very close to the Newcastle City library. 

The books also mentions that all these three brothers Giovanni, Vincenzo and Antonio were, unusually for the time, literate.  It is also referenced how the consular agent Montaldi consoled Vincenzo's widow with high praise of her husband on his early death of pneumonia.

The book also gives the Italian surnames from this area and relates where these originated from.  'Battista' is listed under 'Cassino'.

This book has loads of interesting photos and illustrations.  There is even a photo in the book of the St Mary's Church in Sunderland where Pasqualino was baptised.  Mind, this is not in connection with his baptism.  This is shown because this appears to have been one of the Churches used by the Italians.  I think this is a highly interesting book, very readable and I think likely to be very useful to anyone who may have Italian ancestors in this region. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 02 April 19 10:33 BST (UK)
Hi battista, Sophie & Clan. Here are some more workhouse records which you might like to have as part of your family history records.  These relate to James.  I haven't seen anything to indicate if he did actually migrate to New Zealand as he wished to do (see below in the last excerpt).

TYNEMOUTH UNION MINUTES - 1926

Page 181

'At a Meeting of the House Sub-Committee (Works), held at the Poor Law Institution, North Shields, on Wednesday  the 13th day of January, 1926, at 2.30 o'clock in the afternoon. ..

JAMES BATTISTA  (26)
The Clerk also reported that (in accordance with authority given at last meeting) he had made arrangements for James Battista to be admitted to the Farm Training Colony, Wallingford, on a month's trial, at a charge of 3/- per day.'

Page 563

'At the Ordinary Meeting of the Board of Guardians of the Tynemouth Union held in the Guardians' Hall, North Shields on Thursday, the 28th day of January 1926 at 3 o'clock in the afternoon.  ..

JAMES BATTISTA
Arising out of the Minutes of the House Committee it was reported that James Battista (26) had absconded from the Farm Training Colony, Wallingford, and authority was given to the Clerk to take legal proceedings against him for absconding with the clothing provided for him at the expense of the Union.'

Page 598

'At a Meeting of the House Committee, held at the Poor Law Institution, North Shields, on  Thursday, the 11 February, 1926, at 3.45 o'clock in the afternoon.  ...

JAMES BATTISTA
The Committee interviewed James Battista with regard to his action in absconding from the Farm Training Colony, Wallingford, to which he had been sent by the Guardians, and on his agreeing to return to that Institution the Committee decided that his train fare be paid again.'

Page 645

'At a Meeting of the House Committee, held at the Poor Law Institution, North Shields, on Thursday, the 11th day of March, 1926, at 3.45 o'clock in the afternoon.

JAMES BATTISTA
The Clerk reported that, in accordance with the authority given at last meeting, James Battista had returned to the Farm Training Colony at Wallingford on the 17th February last.'

TYNEMOUTH UNION MINUTES - 26-27

Page 181

'At a Meeting of the House Sub-Committee (Stocktaking), held at the Poor Law Institution, North Shields, on Thursday, the 1st day of July 1926, at 10.30 o'clock in the forenoon.

JAMES BATTISTA
The Committee had before them a letter from the Superintendant of the Wallingford Farm Training Colony, asking whether the Guardians would contribute the sum of 10/- towards the cost of sending James Battista to the Summer Camp.
Resolved:- "That the Guardians contribute the sum of 10s/- towards the expenses incurred in sending James Battista to the summer camp.'

Page 336

'At a Meeting of the Home Sub-Committee (Stocktaking), held at the Poor Law Institution, North Shields, on Thursday, the 30th day of September, at 9.45 o'clock in the forenoon.

JAMES BATTISTA
The Committee had before them a letter from James Battista, at present being maintained by the Guardians of the Wallingford Farm Training Colony, asking to be allowed to migrate to New Zealand.
Resolved:- "That, subject to the approval of the Ministry of Health, the Clerk be authorised to make the necessary arrangements for the migration of James Battista.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Tuesday 02 April 19 10:44 BST (UK)
I've ordered the Out of Italy book, probably be here next month.

Very interesting about James Battista, it'd be amazing if he did move to New Zealand.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Tuesday 02 April 19 10:54 BST (UK)
Seems like this article in the New Zealand Herald is about him: https://i.imgur.com/0feDSoa.gif

NEW ZEALAND HERALD, VOLUME LXXIV, ISSUE 22909, 11 DECEMBER 1937 (https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19371211.2.233.22?query=James%20Battista&phrase=2&snippet=true)

Although, it does appear to be a report from the UK? Around about the right age, right location.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 02 April 19 10:56 BST (UK)
I think as there seem to me more records of James in the newspapers that this may have fallen through or perhaps he changed his mind/ or went and came back to this area.

I have been looking again at the 'Out of Italy' book. - just to clarify the author relates that Giovanni and Vincenzo 'helped' Giambattista Lertoria with his pioneering ice cream business and not that they helped in setting up.  This is my error in communication - sorry about this. 

The book shows photos of Lertoria and his wife so you will be able to see photos of these - your ancestors' friends too when the book arrives.  According to the book Antonio seems to have been the last brother to arrive here. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 02 April 19 11:03 BST (UK)
I have just seen your post after mine.  Fancy that making the news all the way to New Zealand!

I have seen a similar article over here but it does not provide as much detail - that he was told to keep his mouth shut in court and the English newspaper did not name his bride.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 02 April 19 11:14 BST (UK)
Northern Mail - Wednesday 20th October 1937

'Didn't Know Wife Was Alive
Newcastle Man Acquitted on Bigamy Charges
James Battista, 41 year old labourer, of Westmorland Road, Newcastle upon Tyne, who went through a form of marriage with a 17 year old girl while his wife was alive, was found not guilty of bigamy at Newcastle yesterday.
Mr Justice Atkinson instructing the jury to return a 'Not guilty' verdict said there was no evidence to show that Battista knew his wife was living when he 'married' for the second time.
Battista said he had been told in 1927 that his wife was dead, but had not made any further enquiries.'

Just to add - I believe that James' first wife reverted to her maiden name and that she died as Dorothy Playford on 10 September 1950 and was buried at Preston Cemetery, North Shields on 13 September 1950.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 02 April 19 11:49 BST (UK)
Seems like this article in the New Zealand Herald is about him: https://i.imgur.com/0feDSoa.gif

NEW ZEALAND HERALD, VOLUME LXXIV, ISSUE 22909, 11 DECEMBER 1937 (https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19371211.2.233.22?query=James%20Battista&phrase=2&snippet=true)

Although, it does appear to be a report from the UK? Around about the right age, right location.

The article states that he 'married' Lily Macauley in October 1932.

If so he married as George J Battista.

Lily Macauley + George J Battista, 4th q. 1932, Newcastle on Tyne 10b, 202

Interesting! He was also using an alias! Lily Macauley + George J Matthews, 4th q. 1932, Newcastle on Tyne 10b, 202
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 02 April 19 14:12 BST (UK)
That's interesting Jen!  It seems a bit suspicious that he was using an alias.  Perhaps he knew he was marrying bigamously after all and wanted to cover his tracks.

There is a Lily Matthews whose death was registered in Sunderland in the June quarter of 1935.  She was age 20 which would fit her only being 17 when she married James.  I suppose even if this is her she may have been buried elsewhere.

I wonder if she did die then and if this somehow led to the marriage being discovered as bigamous. ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 02 April 19 14:17 BST (UK)
I believe that James Battista 'reinvented' himself with the surname Mathews/Matthews.

We know from RTL's look up that he was born 18th August 1899.

St Cuthbert RC baptism
Jacobus Battista
Born 18 August 1899
Bapt 6 Sept 1899
Son of Joannis & Elizabethae (Helene?) olim Lawson
Grandparents Donatus Alvini & Jane Reid

Using the free search on the 1939 register I looked for the surname Matthews (with variants) in Newcastle upon Tyne with that birthdate. I didn't find anyone, but extending it to one year either side I found a Thomas G Matthews born 18th August 1898.

In the same household was a Lily Mathews born 1915 and a James V Matthews born 1939.

freeBMD shows a Lily Macauley born Newcastle upon Tyne 3rd q. 1915 and a quick check on the 1939 free index confirms Lily Mathews' month of birth as August.

free BMD shows James V Mathews born Newcastle upon Tyne, 3rd q. 1939 mother's maiden surname Macauley

There are three other Mathews births in Newcastle upon Tyne between 1933 and 1938 mother's maiden surname Macauley. Two of them have the middle initial 'B'.

We know that he married as George J. Battista alias George J. Matthews and it seems to me that by 1939 he's become Thomas G Matthews.



Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 02 April 19 14:48 BST (UK)
Goodness Jen!  You have got everything worked out so quickly!!

Another alias!! :o

I wonder how he got a not guilty verdict on the bigamy charge with all this cover up.  Must have had a good lawyer. ::)

It makes you wonder what name he may have gone under at death .. with all these alias names.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 02 April 19 14:54 BST (UK)
He and Lily appear in various places in the Newcastle Electoral Rolls as Matthews and or Mathews and in one case his Christian name is given as George  ::)
I dread to think what his name might have become by the time he died.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 02 April 19 15:01 BST (UK)
I know .. it is mind boggling to think what this possibly may have been!!  Given all that has come to light today.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Tuesday 02 April 19 23:47 BST (UK)
There are three other Mathews births in Newcastle upon Tyne between 1933 and 1938 mother's maiden surname Macauley. Two of them have the middle initial 'B'.

I wonder if the three other Macauley+Mathews children are part of the same family (L A B Mathews, G W Mathews and F E B Mathews).
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 03 April 19 00:27 BST (UK)
On Lily Macauley's marriage index it has Lily Macauley + Matthews or Battista 4th q. 1932 Newcastle T. 10b 202

I wonder what their marriage certificate states.

James V Mathews appears to have married Phylis E. Thomas in 1961 (Coventry) and they had two children. I've found some descendants on Ancestry who have named his parents George J. Mathews and Nelly Macauley.

Death index has him as James Vincent Mathews, died in 2006, birth date 18 Jan 1939. I'll contact that family to see what they know.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 03 April 19 09:13 BST (UK)
Given the surname and mother's maiden name I felt it was more than likely that the other three children could well be of the same family. It's possible that they weren't with their parents in 1939 because there had been a major evacuation of children from Newcastle on Tyne at the beginning of September 1939.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 03 April 19 13:53 BST (UK)
I just had a quick look at the tree you refer to, sadly they have the wrong dates of birth for both James/George (1910) and Lily (1912). There's no reference to the 1939 register which contains the dates of birth of 1898 and 1915, nor any mention of having seen the marriage certificate, which must contain reference to the two surnames.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 03 April 19 22:59 BST (UK)
Yes, I wonder too what the marriage certificate may have said.  I wonder if James may have perhaps given a Father's name as John Mathews or even John Battista Mathews.

Thinking back, if the James Battista we are talking about is the one in the article I posted about on here page 40 post 353 - he was then using the alias of George Marshall + one other unspecified name.



Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 04 April 19 08:59 BST (UK)
Thinking back, if the James Battista we are talking about is the one in the article I posted about on here page 40 post 353 - he was then using the alias of George Marshall + one other unspecified name.

It's certainly a possibility that it was the same James!

Berks and Oxon Advertiser - 16 November 1928

'DEFENDANT WHO "GAVE HIMSELF AWAY."
SMART WORK BY P.C. MORTIMORE

A man whose name and address were given as George Marshall, of 28 Steven Street, Reading, was charged with riding a bicycle without a light on September 27th.  He pleaded guilty and P.C. Mortimer went to Reading and found the defendant in a common lodging house, using another name, and it had been found that his correct name was James Battista.  The defendant had given the police a lot of trouble.
In a statement the defendant said he was using his mother's name.
P.C. Mortimore added that the defendant at Reading first denied all knowledge of the offence.  The witness then asked why he had not returned from a Turners Court man.  The defendant replied that the man was coming to Reading for it.
Mr. Rich: He gave himself away
A fine of 10s. was imposed and the defendant apologized for the trouble he had given.'
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Thursday 04 April 19 14:06 BST (UK)
Hi there! Dorothy is my Great grandmother and I have been lead to believe James was my Great grandfather!!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Thursday 04 April 19 15:26 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat elliesboys.

This is a 'very' long thread, if you want to search it for mentions of James, click on "Print' on the line above the thread on this page (far right) and it will open all the posts in one file in text format. If you use windows press CTRL and F and it will allow you to search for all mentions of James.( On Mac its CMD and F).

That may help.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 04 April 19 15:36 BST (UK)
Hello elliesboys  :) As mentioned in the previous posting this is a long and complex thread, which began with the search for Giovanni Battista, James's father.

James Battista and Dorothy Playford married in 1922.

What is your line of descent from Dorothy? Have you actually seen a birth certificate for one of your grandparents showing them to be born to James and Dorothy?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Thursday 04 April 19 19:50 BST (UK)
Dorothy was my dads grandmother so we have all her bits. I think on my grandads birth certificate it doesn’t have his father named. I will go around to my parents this weekend to get all the bits and the right information.  :) :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Friday 05 April 19 10:38 BST (UK)
Hi Boo,
Thanks very much for the tip how to print the whole thing out!! ;) ;)

Were just amazed this could be all be about our family.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 05 April 19 11:19 BST (UK)
Elliesboys,

Before coming to any conclusions it will be important to know the date of your grandfather's birth, and all the details given on his birth certificate. Please only post information about your grandfather if he is now deceased.

It will be interesting to know all the details if your parents have a copy of the Dorothy Playford/James Battista marriage certificate.

It appears from this press report that James and Dorothy split up two months after their marriage http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nm9/

Let us know what information you are able to unearth  :)

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Friday 05 April 19 11:31 BST (UK)
I know you right!

My Grandad (John George) was born in 1920. As My great Grandmother (Dorothy) was to young to marry and also not aloud they had to wait until she was 21. My parents do have all birth, marriage and death certificates. :) :) :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 05 April 19 11:34 BST (UK)
Thinking back, if the James Battista we are talking about is the one in the article I posted about on here page 40 post 353 - he was then using the alias of George Marshall + one other unspecified name.

It's certainly a possibility that it was the same James!

Berks and Oxon Advertiser - 16 November 1928

'DEFENDANT WHO "GAVE HIMSELF AWAY."
SMART WORK BY P.C. MORTIMORE

A man whose name and address were given as George Marshall, of 28 Steven Street, Reading, was charged with riding a bicycle without a light on September 27th.  He pleaded guilty and P.C. Mortimer went to Reading and found the defendant in a common lodging house, using another name, and it had been found that his correct name was James Battista.  The defendant had given the police a lot of trouble.
In a statement the defendant said he was using his mother's name.
P.C. Mortimore added that the defendant at Reading first denied all knowledge of the offence.  The witness then asked why he had not returned from a Turners Court man.  The defendant replied that the man was coming to Reading for it.
Mr. Rich: He gave himself away
A fine of 10s. was imposed and the defendant apologized for the trouble he had given.'

This has to be the same James Battista.

We know from this posting https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6709450#msg6709450that he was sent to the Wallingford Farm Training Colony in 1926.

Wallingford is only some 12 miles from Reading, and the Training Colony was also known as Turner's Court https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Oxfordshire_Colony.html?id=kgpUi9t9ALoC&redir_esc=y
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Friday 05 April 19 11:46 BST (UK)
Just remembered to say my grandad (John George) also went to the Wellesley Training Ship from a very young age. We have there records to prove he was visited by the Battista Family.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 07 April 19 13:24 BST (UK)
A very warm welcome to RootsChat, elliesboys!  I think this is great that you have an ancestor and have now joined this fascinating thread.

I don't know where you hail from but if you hail from Tyneside you will see by reading through this thread that the Battistas seem to be well documented in this area and it will be possible for you to see the various records firsthand at local libraries, archives etc.

When researching for the Battista thread, I have also come across references here and there for the Playfords too.  I am just recalling from memory but I do believe I saw a baptism for Dorothy at Christ Church and I do think Dorothy might have met James in the workhouse as I do think I saw her name in the records.

I do believe sister Ethel was there too.  I am sure Ethel will be long dead now so I think it will be okay to mention her.  Ethel is mentioned in the Tynemouth Union Minutes 1915-16 on page 241 - apparently they were going to send her away for training to Springfield House, Shotley Bridge.  However, on a follow up 'minutes' on page 323 it reports that she had absconded from there.

I wonder if your family may have any oral history which may have been passed down regarding where Giovanni may have disappeared to?  I also wonder which Battista ancestors may have visited your relation when he was on the Wellesley?  This is interesting to hear they kept in touch.

If the putative child in the workhouse to Ena Clarkson, your ancestor and the children to Lily it would appear that James had 6 offspring.  Wouldn't it be great if some descendant may have had some oral history passed down to them on the mystery of Giovanni!  The minutes record that Giovanni 'deserted' but didn't record where to. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 10:33 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Thank you so much for replying!!  :) :) :)

Yes we all still live in the Tynemouth and Northumberland area. My Grandad or Dorothy never moved away. We have really just started our research so knowing we can get a lot from the various local places will be fab. Were DESPERATE for a picture of James.
We think my Grandad may have been named after James's Brother John.

My Grandad never really talked about his father much as he really didn't know him. I know the papers say Dorothy left him but we were told it was James who left them. They did meet at the workhouse. My Great Grandad wouldn't allow them to marry (underage) so that's why the wedding took place after my Grandad was born. My Grandad was never aware of siblings :( :( I am going to see if Dorothy may have gone on to have more we were not aware of.

We do know when Dorothy visited my Grandad at the Wellesley she used the name Mrs Battista. This is on records in the 1930's. James seems to have thought she had gone back to using her Maiden name?? He think this was incorrect.

We have also came across Ethel! We seem to believe she died quite young.
Unfortunately I cannot give any information on Giovanni  :( :( Its so sad as it would have been fantastic to find out where he ended up.
Thanks again for all your help.  :) :)




Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 08 April 19 10:41 BST (UK)
I am going to see if Dorothy may have gone on to have more we were not aware of.

There is a newspaper report of John George Playford's 1943 marriage, + a photo and the report states he was the only son of Mrs Dorothy Playford

James seems to have thought she had gone back to using her Maiden name?? He think this was incorrect.

She was certainly using her maiden name in 1939.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 10:46 BST (UK)
We have only just found out that Dorothy is buried with two other females. We have no idea who these are.  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 08 April 19 10:57 BST (UK)
Elliesboys, do you have a copy of James and Dorothy's marriage certificate? If so it would be useful if you would share all the details on it with the Battista researchers on this thread, particularly what the certificate says of James's father and who the witneses were?

Also, it would be good to know exactly what the Wellesley records say about your grandfather's visitors. Was Dorothy the only one?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 08 April 19 11:05 BST (UK)
There is a Dorothy Playford who died on 10 September 1950 who is buried at Preston Cemetery, North Shields.  Is this your ancestor elliesboys?  If so, this record too, suggests she went back to using her maiden name.

If Dorothy was buried in a grave which wasn't purchased the grave might also contain strangers.

I have not come across a photo of James as yet.  However, Tyne and Wear Archives have very good photos x 2 of John George Battista, one of Orsolina/Lily, one of her husband Robert Guthrie.  Also the book 'Out if Italy' at Newcastle City library has a photo of James' uncle Vincenzo.  Also on the same page is a write up about Giovanni, Vincenzo and Antonio.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 11:12 BST (UK)
Yes that's my Dorothy. My Grandad did bury her a Playford. We think she went back to her maiden name maybe once she found out James was trying to remarry.

One of the females in the grave is named as Sarah Gibson. My Grandad did mention the surname Gibson, but my father cannot remember why?? I just wished we have pushed him more on his past.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 08 April 19 11:18 BST (UK)
I take it your Grandfather may have passed on too? 

I agree with Jen that it might be useful and helpful if you could provide the information she has mentioned.

It is amazing sometimes how a little nugget of information which might appear seemingly irrelevant can lead onto finding out more. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 11:36 BST (UK)
Yes My Grandad has died :(
We knew he spent most of his life at the Wellesley but didn't really talk about it unless we pushed.
Once he met my Nana his life completely changed and we were and still are a very close family. I think he liked us all near as this was something he never had. I will get all the details off the wedding certificate as soon as my parents get home from shopping :) :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 08 April 19 11:45 BST (UK)
That is great Elliesboys. :)

This might be irrelevant as you may already have the record but if you want to see the original of your Grandfather's marriage entry - you can see this in the Percy Main, St John, volume 1942-1945 at North Shields local studies.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 11:50 BST (UK)
Thank you! As silly as it sounds I just wish there was a way I could go back in time just for 1 day!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I would love to experience the whole 1920's seeing my family and watching what they got up too. The more I read on the thread you's have posted Its just amazing :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 08 April 19 12:07 BST (UK)
Yes, I would like to time travel, even for just one day, too.  It would be great to go back in time to meet ancestors.

Even though the Battistas are not my ancestors I think their story is quite fascinating.  There are so many puzzles. ???  For example, the daughter of Giovanni is quite an enigma too.  We still don't know how she came to be E. Moralee.  It would appear that she left the workhouse with a W. Brabant and later returned with a son called John to the workhouse.  The entry records that Father William was a tailor.  Could this mean that this was her child's Father or might this be Giovanni using an alias?

I have come across some newspaper accounts of a Jacob Miller involved in some petty crime with John George.  (Although, he did state that he was only carrying whatever for Battista ;D) I suppose I will never know for definite but from name, location and age I suspect he might have been one of my ancestors - the Grandson of my Great Grandfather's sister to be exact (Mary Watson nee Conroy).
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 12:20 BST (UK)
Its just crazy! That could mean your my family ;D ;D ;D ;D We do believe my Grandad must have been named after His uncle John George. Its to much of a coincidence. Also without me knowing all this I have a son James!!!!  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Monday 08 April 19 12:23 BST (UK)
Its just crazy! That could mean your my family ;D ;D ;D ;D We do believe my Grandad must have been named after His uncle John George. Its to much of a coincidence. Also without me knowing all this I have a son James!!!!  :)

Jacob Miller was an 'acquaintance' of John George Battista, family by crime maybe, not blood :P
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 12:26 BST (UK)
Sorry that was what you said!!!  ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 08 April 19 12:32 BST (UK)
No problem.  He might have just been 'carrying' the goods for Battista - however since this alibi seems to have been used more than once - I am not so sure.   ;D. I know I shouldn't laugh at crime but I suppose it is alright to be a bit amused at this excuse in a historical context. ;) ;D



Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 17:28 BST (UK)
Sorry for late reply! On there wedding certificate it just had lines for fathers name and fathers occupation!! Just my Grandmothers fathers details are there. The witnesses are Sam Johnstone and Agnes Hare.  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 08 April 19 17:35 BST (UK)
Sorry for late reply! On there wedding certificate it just had lines for fathers name and fathers occupation!! Just my Grandmothers fathers details are there. The witnesses are Sam Johnstone and Agnes Hare.  :)

Presumably you are talking of John George Playford's 1943 marriage certificate?

The one we were really hoping you've got is the James Battista - Dorothy Playford certficate  :) (reply #436)

Elliesboys, do you have a copy of James and Dorothy's marriage certificate?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 18:06 BST (UK)
That is Dorothy and James’s certificate! Married 1922 in tynemouth  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 08 April 19 18:08 BST (UK)
That is Dorothy and James’s certificate! Married 1922 in tynemouth  :)

Ah, so he didn't name his father at all.  How very disappointing  :(
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 18:13 BST (UK)
No :( it’s such a shame.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 08 April 19 18:54 BST (UK)
This is strange .. I have checked on page 13 post 110 - my post re: visiting the archives.

His father is named on the Catholic marriage entry at St Cuthbert, North Shields - I wonder why name is not on certificate? ???  Father Joanni Battista (John).
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 19:39 BST (UK)
Just checked and definitely the right church St Cutherberts Bedford Street North Shields. There is just a line through father!!?? Cannot understand. James’s adresss is also different to Dorothy’s yet I know they lived together.  ??? ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 08 April 19 19:43 BST (UK)
Could James have requested that his Father not be named on cert?  He is definitely named on original Catholic entry which can be seen at the archives.

Perhaps the priest named his Father from his baptism record perhaps against James'wishes.

How strange!

I don't know what addresses you have for the couple but perhaps these were different for a sense of propriety.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 08 April 19 20:02 BST (UK)
There seems to be so much  secrecy around the whole thing. Very strange! Thanks for all
Your help though.  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 08 April 19 21:45 BST (UK)
Did you find out which Battistas visited your Grandfather on the Wellesley? :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 09 April 19 09:46 BST (UK)
I have emailed the North Tyneside registrar's office to ask about this strange situation regarding information which is on a Church entry being omitted from a historical marriage certificate.  I am just curious now and wonder if it might have been the practice that on request of one of the parties information could be withheld?

This is the first time I have come across anything like this.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: AntonyMMM on Tuesday 09 April 19 11:16 BST (UK)
I have been asked to comment on this (as a former registrar)....

There is no legal requirement for a father's details to be recorded (nor are they ever verified or checked) today, so I suspect there never has been. It is certainly possible for someone to ask that their father's details not be recorded on a marriage register entry, and something I had happen a few times whilst a registrar - usually when he had left the family long before and the person didn't want his details mentioned.

The current guidelines say:

"If the party shows any reluctance to give particulars for this column or column 8 the registrar need not press his enquiries, but should draw a line through the column to show that the information was not supplied"
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Tuesday 09 April 19 11:19 BST (UK)
Yes that's what it is a long line through.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 09 April 19 11:22 BST (UK)
Many thanks for responding on this AntonyMMM.  I have never come across this issue before and this is very helpful as your post explains things really well.  I feel I have learned something new today. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Tuesday 09 April 19 12:04 BST (UK)
Not seen the church register but I'd guess that its not in the same format as the civil marriage cert (as an Anglican register would be).
Unlike Anglican registers, RC marriage records were never intended to be a 'legal document' they were a solely a record of a religious ceremony. Therefore they not an exact facsimile of civil records.
It was possibly not even written at the same time as the marriage, but the church register entry may have been completed later and the priest perhaps recorded the father's name because he knew of the family. Though the witnesses etc are recorded the RC marriage registers are usually all in the same handwriting, so no requirement for any participant/witness to sign the church register. The bride and groom possibly never saw this entry or had any idea what was included in it.


Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 09 April 19 12:27 BST (UK)
I remember that the entry at the Church was in the usual RC style and not like what would appear on a marriage certificate.  I suspect you are right Boo, in writing that the bride and groom may have never have got to see the actual Church entry or have known what was recorded from this.  I think as the family lived in North Shields they were probably well known at the Church having attended other ceremonies there.  Even without checking the baptism record for James' Father the priest may have known first hand that James Father was Giovanni/John.

I think this is quite useful information which has come about today through this issue.  This shows that if some people have Catholic ancestors who do not have their Father named on a marriage certificate they could still find out the name of the Father perhaps from the RC Church entry.   The priest would likely have chased up their baptism.   :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 09 April 19 15:01 BST (UK)
Just wondering elliesboys, were you able to uncover which of the Battista family visited on the Wellesley?

There is a very good book about the Wellesley at the library - I don't know whether you have seen this?

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Tuesday 09 April 19 15:10 BST (UK)
No! We think it might have been Dorothy and her mother. Some entries Just say Battista and some say Battista plus Playford.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 09 April 19 15:38 BST (UK)
No! We think it might have been Dorothy and her mother. Some entries Just say Battista and some say Battista plus Playford.

 Battista + Playford could also be interpreted as a Battista relative + his mother Dorothy Playford  :-\

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Tuesday 09 April 19 15:52 BST (UK)
On a few though its says visitors  Mrs Battista and Mrs Playford  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 17 April 19 03:40 BST (UK)
Some further information on Giovanni Battista and Elizabeth Lawson's marriage. I paid for 1-hour research from TW Archives, to search the marriage records of St. Mary's RC church Sunderland. 1870 - 1878. No record of marriage was found for Giovanni and Elizabeth. So, that rules out an earlier unregistered Catholic marriage.

However, there was a record found on FreeBMD for an Elizabeth Ellen Lawson married in Sunderland, 1873. To either a John Henry Ooughtred/Oughtred or John Morrow. March ¼ 1873 Sunderland 10A / 746.

I checked the Sunderland indexes, and there's an 1873 marriage to an Elizabeth Lawson and John Marrow (C026BK15/477), no record of a Lawson and Ooughtred/Oughtred marriage. So, it appears John Morrow/Marrow married an Elizabeth Ellen Lawson in 1873. If it's the same Elizabeth who later on married Giovanni, then she would've been 19 in her marriage to Morrow.

I couldn't find a death record of a John Marrow in Sunderland, between the dates of 1873-1878. The 1885 marriage of Giovanni and Elizabeth only names the husband as a widow, and Elizabeth as a spinster. I wonder if she did have a prior marriage. With Giovanni apparently already married at the time of Pasqualino's birth and potentially Elizabeth too, I suppose that does make a lot of sense as to why they didn't marry before the birth of their first three (or however many) children.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 17 April 19 08:54 BST (UK)
http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1873&qtr=1&vol=10a&page=746&search=search

Hi battista,

This may be found to be totally incorrect but I am wondering if John Morrow may actually be Giovanni using an alias?

Perhaps he was already married in 1873 and waited until the death of his first wife, whoever she was, before he married Elizabeth under his real name.  When he married Elizabeth perhaps for the second time, it would have been true that she was a spinster, as the first time round marriage would have not been legal, being bigamous.

Looking on the Marriage Locator website the place of marriage is not exactly pin pointed.  However, I have sometimes found that when two marriages are shown it has taken place at one of them.  When I can next get to the archives I will check out St Peter to see if the marriage did place there, and if so what the details are.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Wednesday 17 April 19 10:50 BST (UK)
Hmm, I didn't even think to question whether John Morrow was an alias. There's been so many aliases in this thread of other relatives, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised if Giovanni himself used one. John is the anglicanised version of Giovanni, that's not really saying much though.

Maybe there's a newspaper article of the marriage, might be able to see whether this theory is supported or not. Might eventually end up ordering the certificate.

Although, married for 5 years before the birth of their first child. Isn't that pretty uncommon?

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 17 April 19 13:33 BST (UK)
Hi battista,

I have managed to squeeze in a visit to the archives to check this out.

Well, at least I can save you applying for the certificate.  This record doesn't look like it might be of relevance but I suppose it was worth a try.  I will post so you can see the details for yourself ..

Microfilm 570

Holy Trinity, Sunderland
Page 239
Entry 477
March 9 1873
John Morrow & Elizabeth Ellen Lawson
Both: 19
Bachelor & Spinster
Baker
His residence: Hartley Street
Her residence: Dunn's Passage
Fathers:
William Morrow - Labourer
Joseph Lawson - Waterman
Witnesses:
James Milburn - his mark
Mary Ann Milburn - her mark
By Banns

Elizabeth Ellen Lawson also signed with her mark.

She is 19 - but Father's name doesn't seem to fit with what you have already found out about her background.  :-\

I wonder where this one came from - when I put Elizabeth E Lawson into freebmd I am only coming up with one birth for Sunderland - 1854.  I suppose this one might have been born elswhere.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 18 April 19 10:42 BST (UK)
Hello Everyone

So excited to check back in and see all this new activity! Not least a new cousin!!  Hi to elliesboys  :D - I'll PM you x

I think your find RTL, from the Guardians Minutes 1915 re Giovanni deserting the family is a brilliant piece of information to add to the puzzle.  I wish I had been able to get there during my visit.  Already thinking of when I can get back up!

Also, I had seen the entry in the Wellesey Book for a J. Cattista and I was definitely of the opinion this is James - just a typo for the surname rather than an alias.

But regarding alias' - this does seem to have been common practice for the Battista's. 

Firstly due to the language differences?  I would love to know if they came able to speak English or if they learned once here??  I do know that the brother Antonio's wife Christina who came over with him from Italy in 1891 couldn't speak a word of English... my Great Aunts remember this... they remember that she taught them lots of Italian words including Gabinetti which is Toilet  ;D

Secondly, they obviously used alias' to cover up their misdemeanours! They would have all been surviving in a difficult world, Giovanni's children specifically given their sad circumstances, so would have had to do what was necessary I guess.

It is so amazing to have all of this information and help in discovering it - I firmly believe it will all unravel soon  :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 18 April 19 12:27 BST (UK)
Hi battista,

I have managed to squeeze in a visit to the archives to check this out.

Well, at least I can save you applying for the certificate.  This record doesn't look like it might be of relevance but I suppose it was worth a try.  I will post so you can see the details for yourself ..

Microfilm 570

Holy Trinity, Sunderland
Page 239
Entry 477
March 9 1873
John Morrow & Elizabeth Ellen Lawson
Both: 19
Bachelor & Spinster
Baker
His residence: Hartley Street
Her residence: Dunn's Passage
Fathers:
William Morrow - Labourer
Joseph Lawson - Waterman
Witnesses:
James Milburn - his mark
Mary Ann Milburn - her mark
By Banns

Elizabeth Ellen Lawson also signed with her mark.

She is 19 - but Father's name doesn't seem to fit with what you have already found out about her background.  :-\

I wonder where this one came from - when I put Elizabeth E Lawson into freebmd I am only coming up with one birth for Sunderland - 1854.  I suppose this one might have been born elsewhere.

Well, at least we can rule that one out. Strange coincidence, although, I suppose all of those names are fairly common.

I have the birth certificate of Elizabeth Eleanor Lawson, born 1854 in Sunderland. Parents: Elizabeth Lawson (formerly Gray) and Thomas Lawson a Mariner.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 18 April 19 13:57 BST (UK)
Hi battista,

I have managed to squeeze in a visit to the archives to check this out.

Well, at least I can save you applying for the certificate. 

Well, at least we can rule that one out. Strange coincidence, although, I suppose all of those names are fairly common.

I have the birth certificate of Elizabeth Eleanor Lawson, born 1854 in Sunderland. Parents: Elizabeth Lawson (formerly Gray) and Thomas Lawson a Mariner.

Battista.

RTL has quite literally gone out of her way (yet again) to help you by finding this information.

A word of thanks from you would not have gone amiss!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 18 April 19 14:15 BST (UK)
Battista.

RTL has quite literally gone out of her way (yet again) to help you by finding this information.

A word of thanks from you would not have gone amiss!

Yes, you're quite right. I didn't even see that RTL physically went to the archives, that was far too quick and it's far too late for reading here :)

Many thanks once again to @RTL for going to the archives to get information for Battista family members. At this point, I can't even remember how many times you've gone out to find a record of one of our family members. You've done it so many times  ;D The longevity and depth of this thread is thanks to you. While the mystery of Giovanni's death has yet to be solved, I never thought this thread would uncover so much information about the rest of the family! This thread will be a treasure trove of information for many descendants who come across it in the future, there's already a few popping in already.

I want to say thanks to everyone else who has participated in this thread. I started to name everyone, but I fear I might miss folks. Some of you have also physically gone to graves and archives to uncover more information. Not to mention the helping hands from everyone who is much better at tracking down records online as well.

I am still focusing on Giovanni Battista, searching Italian records for clues as to whether he ever went back. So perhaps this thread may one day be resolved.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 18 April 19 14:33 BST (UK)
Here are some images of birth, baptism and marriage records relevant to this thread:

Elizabeth E. Lawson Birth Certificate (probably shared this already) - https://i.imgur.com/kEkU0SP.png

Pasqualino Battista (Paschale Baptist) baptism at St Mary's RC Sunderland - https://i.imgur.com/z33aSrQ.png

Francis Spence + Orsolina Battista marriage - https://i.imgur.com/ykqmnvX.jpg

Francis Spence + Ann Fenton marriage - https://i.imgur.com/NPSOhyl.jpg

The Francis Spence marriages would be useful for anyone who is interested in comparing the signatures to determine whether they are, in fact, the same person. Those signatures do look very similar to me, especially the F, S and P. I'm certainly no expert though, would be interested to hear what other people think! :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 18 April 19 23:37 BST (UK)
Just checked and definitely the right church St Cutherberts Bedford Street North Shields. There is just a line through father!!?? Cannot understand. James’s adresss is also different to Dorothy’s yet I know they lived together.  ??? ???


Was just looking through my gallery on my Ancestry tree and I have the church record for the marriage from St Cuthberts, which RTL sourced and added much earlier on the thread... this record does give the same address for James and Dorothy.  Both noted as living at 35 Duke Street, North Shields.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 25 November 19 22:37 GMT (UK)
Thread has been quiet for a while but I have found some new information regarding James.... I ordered the marriage certificate for he and Lily Macauley... attached below.  Interesting eh?!?  How on earth did he get away with all these alias's and the bigamy charge  ??? :o ??? :o

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Tuesday 26 November 19 11:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Sophie,
Lovely to hear from you.
I cannot really make it all out but what i can see is very interesting. No wonder my Grandad wouldnt talk about it  :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 26 November 19 11:17 GMT (UK)
I see that he stated he was a bachelor. But when charged with bigamy in 1937 he'd said that he'd been 'told' his first wife was dead.

Northern Mail - Wednesday 20th October 1937

'Didn't Know Wife Was Alive
Newcastle Man Acquitted on Bigamy Charges
James Battista, 41 year old labourer, of Westmorland Road, Newcastle upon Tyne, who went through a form of marriage with a 17 year old girl while his wife was alive, was found not guilty of bigamy at Newcastle yesterday.
Mr Justice Atkinson instructing the jury to return a 'Not guilty' verdict said there was no evidence to show that Battista knew his wife was living when he 'married' for the second time.
Battista said he had been told in 1927 that his wife was dead, but had not made any further enquiries.'

Just to add - I believe that James' first wife reverted to her maiden name and that she died as Dorothy Playford on 10 September 1950 and was buried at Preston Cemetery, North Shields on 13 September 1950.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Tuesday 26 November 19 11:29 GMT (UK)
Its unbelievable the lies he must have told. Yes your right my Great Granmother did go back to her maiden name. My Dad was only 7 months when she died. We found her grave and have been told she was buried with another lady surname Gibson. We were told it was most probably a pauper grave. :-[ :-[
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 26 November 19 12:17 GMT (UK)
Yes Jen - that proves that the investigation was less than thorough! Surely if he had thought his wife dead since 1927 he would have put widower on the marriage register in 1932? Or was it different for men?  And I wonder what brought the case to light, 5 years later???  Interestingly, Dorothy Playford notes herself as a Widow on the 1939 census...
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 26 November 19 12:30 GMT (UK)
Economical with the truth  ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 26 November 19 18:02 GMT (UK)
Definitely!  :o
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 27 November 19 09:58 GMT (UK)
I think James' behaviour would no doubt have hurt, upset and exasperated a number of people in his life along the way.  However, I can't help feeling a great deal of sympathy for him.  I think he comes across as a very emotionally damaged person.  From being a tiny child, he had so many awful experiences.  His Mother and baby brother falling sick and dying, having to adjust to another 'Mother' and family moving in, losing his Father and second family and then having to adapt to workhouse life/separation from siblings, regimented life on Wellesley, the Great War and loss of brothers, etc.  I think he might have been separated from his sisters in the workhouse too for a good part of the time ( he might have had a sense of them being substitute Mother figures as young as they were so this would likely have been quite frightening to him).  I think because James ended up spending so many years in the workhouse he probably had a sense of this as his home.  Albeit a home that only offered the basics and one which kept trying to get him out based on what those that were running things thought was best for him.  I doubt he would have had much say, about whether he actually wanted to go to the Wellesley or the other places he was sent to.  I don't think it would have done his self esteem much good either to have been told he had been 'deserted'.  However, we don't know whether this was true.  Something may have happened to Giovanni.  I know from reading the minutes volumes that deserters were sometimes tracked down and made to contribute.   I think it might have been assumed that Giovanni had wilfully deserted because they could not find him or a record of his death. 

I am sure that people at the workhouse and other places probably did their best but I can't help feeling that he would have been an extremely traumatised child through death, separation, and everything else that might have left him feeling adrift and disconnected.  I am not surprised he had difficulties with commitments and attachments due to his own early insecurity. 

Also, I am not surprised that he appears to have stayed with Lily the longest.  Perhaps as she was a much younger partner she might have seemed more vulnerable to him and at some level perhaps he might have identified with this and therefore was able to empathise more with her than with previous partners.

I do hope James eventually became more settled in himself and went on to have a happier ending.  I daresay, if I had been one of his earlier partners or children I would have felt quite mad at him for being unsupportive.  However, at a distance, watching his life unfold through records I have found his story to have been a most heartbreaking one.

I think the next youngest , William Armstrong, must have also suffered much too.  However, thankfully for him it seems that when he got into trouble later on in life someone was astute enough to recognise that he needed proper help and not just punishment.

So much intrigue on this highly fascinating thread!  We started off looking for Giovanni but so many other mysteries have also arisen regarding James, Vincent, Elizabeth Moralee and son John and Frank Spence.  What with all these alias names and disappearances/going undercover, I think there is so much more behind 'scenes' in this story.   I do hope eventually we can get to the bottom of it all!
Dare I say it, who needs Agatha Christie, when you have the Battistas!  ;)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 27 November 19 10:04 GMT (UK)
Just on a lighter note - some updates I have come across recently (I have already let Sophie know):

C. Battista who achieved Military Medal has his photo in the Illustrated Chronicle on Monday October 22 1917.  Perhaps newcastle library might get around to publishing this photo at some point by next year.

Also, Giovanni's  Elizabeth and Antonio appear to have been baptised twice.  In volumes at North Shields library they are both recorded as having been baptised at St Peter North Shields.

Elizabeth on 17 October 1886 parents John & Elizabeth Ellen.

Antonio on 26 December 1880 parents Giovanni & Elizabeth Ellen.

On that court case I do think it was quite suspicious that the jury were urged to return a not guilty verdict because of 'no evidence'.  I think there was plenty of evidence to point to guilt.  Why the alias name?  Also, if he really thought he was a widower then why was 'bachelor' put down.  Also, I think it quite far fetched the idea that someone would not make further enquiries if told their estranged spouse had died and they wanted to marry again.

I think that jury must have had a great deal if respect for authority and just gone along with what they were told to do.  It is incredulous that any of them let alone all of them would have believed that.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Wednesday 27 November 19 11:37 GMT (UK)

On that court case I do think it was quite suspicious that the jury were urged to return a not guilty verdict because of 'no evidence'.  I think there was plenty of evidence to point to guilt.  Why the alias name?  Also, if he really thought he was a widower then why was 'bachelor' put down.  Also, I think it quite far fetched the idea that someone would not make further enquiries if told their estranged spouse had died and they wanted to marry again.

I think that jury must have had a great deal if respect for authority and just gone along with what they were told to do.  It is incredulous that any of them let alone all of them would have believed that.

As far as I know, in a court of law the burden of proof lies with the prosecution, hence the phrase 'innocent till proven guilty'.  I doubt the judge would have directed the jury lightly, but if the prosecution didn't present evidence to prove the case (which conformed to the legal rules) then the judge was correct.

Using an alias, saying he was a bachelor is not evidence that he knowingly committed bigamy. It may be an indication that could produce an opinion, but a court case is not a debate. The judge was saying that according to legal rules the prosecution hadn't presented anything to the court that could, legally, be considered evidence of proof.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 01 December 19 13:19 GMT (UK)
This might all totally come to nothing but Jen wrote of James being Thomas G Matthews by 1939.  (Page 46 Post 413)

I wonder if he might have stuck to this name, possibly?

There was a Thomas George Matthews who died in Durham East in the September quarter of 1983.  His date of birth given as 18 August 1898 - a year out to the day - but possibly still worth considering, perhaps?  Vol 1 page 1035.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Sunday 01 December 19 13:59 GMT (UK)
That d.o.b.  matches the one JenB found in the free search of the 1939 register so this does look a quite likely death registration. Well spotted RTL!

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 01 December 19 19:19 GMT (UK)
Oooo think you've found it RTL! Brilliant.  His birth year is 1898 on all of the military stuff and his marriage cert to Lily.  Hoping to find some Matthews descendants soon that could shed light of what be came of him.  I may order the death certificate to see if it was a Lily or one of their children who registered the death.

Regarding the Bigamy charge - makes sense Boo, regarding how the jury didn't find him guilty.  There was nothing conclusive about the evidence ::)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 02 December 19 09:44 GMT (UK)
Yes Boo and Sophie, thankfully, I agree this seems quite likely to be the death registration of James Battista.  If it is definitely him, it is good to see he had a good run of life - 83/84. 

Yes, please do keep us updated Sophie, if you do find any more evidence!  Hopefully, one day elliesboys might finally get to know where Grt Grandfather James was buried/cremated. 

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 02 December 19 10:10 GMT (UK)
This is such a long thread now and it is hard to remember if this is something we have gone over before.  However, I am wondering if Giovanni might also have had an alias - William?

Daughter Elizabeth was taken out by a W.Brabant on 17 August 1904.  A William Brabant had married in Newcastle in June quarter 1904 to either Mary Ann McCann or Margaret Speers. In my post on page 13 post 115 when Elizabeth returns to the workhouse it was recorded that 'Father William a tailor'.  Giovanni was a tailor.

A William Brabant died 1927 in Newcastle upon Tyne aged 71 so birth year around 1846.  Apologies if we have already gone over all this and dismissed it - I just can't remember.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 02 December 19 10:11 GMT (UK)
Blimey Well done on your find!! Can you imagine if I could finally find out where he was buried and a little more about him. I would love to see a picture. :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 02 December 19 10:19 GMT (UK)
elliesboys, I was just thinking this very thing yesterday!  The thought came to me that as James seems to have died at quite a late date - there will likely be a good chance that someone out there will have a photo (or even many photos of him that they might be willing to share with you.) :)

I think with the death cert info it may not be too hard to find out where he was buried or cremated.  I am so happy for you that it does look likely to be him and that you will hopefully get closure finally soon on where he is. :) 

There will no doubt be a lot for you to catch up on regarding his history between the missing years og 1939-1983.  I do wish you all the very best with this!

Please do keep us updated.   :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: elliesboys on Monday 02 December 19 10:30 GMT (UK)
Lets hope I can get one. Just to see who he looks like would be unbelievable!! Thank you all so much for all your help. In really do appreciate it.  :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 02 December 19 11:25 GMT (UK)
I may order the death certificate to see if it was a Lily or one of their children who registered the death.

The residence/place of death on this would be the important first step to finding where he was buried/cremated.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Monday 02 December 19 11:31 GMT (UK)
and just a reminder a death register entry is available from the GRO as a .pdf, at a cheaper price than a cert on a posh piece of paper - and often arrives a lot quicker :-)

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 02 December 19 14:09 GMT (UK)
Thanks guys - have ordered a few via the pdf option, its great!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 02 December 19 14:14 GMT (UK)
Also I couldn't agree more Ellieboys.. pictures are the holy grail!  Just yesterday, a hint popped up on my tree and I now have a picture of Georgina Battista, Giovanni's eldest daughter and James eldest sister!!!!! It has been posted by one of her daughter Harriet's descendants - have messaged them and am waiting for a response.  So you see you never know when what you are looking for might just turn up out of the blue!  ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 02 December 19 14:17 GMT (UK)
RTL that's an interesting theory re William Brabant.... and very credible considering James and his brother Vincent's stories....

Second Ellieboys thanks to everyone, particularly RTL, for all the continued help and support on this - feel like pieces of the puzzle are flying in from all angles at the moment!  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 02 December 19 14:21 GMT (UK)
There is a William Brabant and wife Charlotte (Gorbould) in Newcastle upon Tyne in 1891 and 1901. They married there in 1883. No sign of them in 1911  :-\

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Monday 02 December 19 14:41 GMT (UK)
This appears to be the marriage for the William Brabant and Charlotte that JenB found
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP3H-K5W4

No idea if it fits, I've kind of lost track :)

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 02 December 19 14:45 GMT (UK)
This is such a long thread now and it is hard to remember if this is something we have gone over before.  However, I am wondering if Giovanni might also have had an alias - William?

Daughter Elizabeth was taken out by a W.Brabant on 17 August 1904.  A William Brabant had married in Newcastle in June quarter 1904 to either Mary Ann McCann or Margaret Speers. In my post on page 13 post 115 when Elizabeth returns to the workhouse it was recorded that 'Father William a tailor'.  Giovanni was a tailor.

A William Brabant died 1927 in Newcastle upon Tyne aged 71 so birth year around 1846.  Apologies if we have already gone over all this and dismissed it - I just can't remember.

Just trying to clarify this, as I am confused.

Is the sugggestion that W. Brabant is an alias for Giovanni Battista?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 02 December 19 19:20 GMT (UK)
Just to clarify, yes, I am wondering if Giovanni may have used an alias too, and perhaps this is why he is proving so difficult to find.  I am just plucking at straws here, but yes, I am wondering if Giovanni might be W.Brabant.

Not the William Brabant who was married to a 'Charlotte' but another one perhaps who married in 1904 to a Margaret or a Mary.  Unfortunately, 'Marriage Locator' does not pin point an exact venue for the 1904 marriage:

  http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1904&qtr=2&vol=10b&page=213&search=search

It was also 1904 when Elizabeth was taken out by a W.Brabant.  Of course, this person may not have been Giovanni.  However, I don't think it would have been out of the question for him to have used an alias for whatever reason.

Possible theories ... Perhaps Giovanni wanted to seem to disappear to avoid being hounded for contributions for his children's support in the workhouse.  I know from reading the 'minutes' volumes that relatives could be tracked and made to contribute if they could be found.  Or perhaps he wanted to be free of Anastasia and his marital responsibilities for her.  Also, it might have been a lot simpler back then to commit bigamy rather than divorce if Giovanni had fallen in love with someone else.  Who knows what might have been going on.  In Anastasia's death notice she is only noted as the wife of Michael Whelan and not Giovanni.  It could just be that someone wanted to blot their step-father out - but it also could be that there might be something else behind this.

It could have been a slip of the pen that 'Father William a tailor' was written in Elizabeth's entry when she returned to the workhouse or perhaps this referred to baby John's Father?  It is a bit ambiguous.  The phrase in the entry does have a ring of present tense about it so perhaps Giovanni might still have been alive in 1912?  Perhaps as a William.  Perhaps as William Brabant.  A Wiiliam Brabant of around Giovanni's age dies in Newcastle in 1927.

As there are hundreds of posts on this thread it certainly is easy to lose track of everything. 

However, I can't help wondering if there might be clues in amongst it all that we might be missing.  It does seem strange how Giovanni seems to vanish into thin air.  Also puzzling is how daughter Elizabeth becomes 'Moralee'.

Oh well, hopefully more might come to light as things go on.

By the way, that is wonderful that you now have a photo of Georgina, Sophie.  It is always so thrilling when a photo of an ancestor turns up!!   :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 02 December 19 19:50 GMT (UK)
Quote
Not the William Brabant who was married to a 'Charlotte' but another one perhaps who married in 1904 to a Margaret or a Mary. 

The other groom on the page was Selby Davidson, who in 1911 was married to Margaret.
So William Brabant must have married Mary Ann McCann.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 03 December 19 10:11 GMT (UK)
Thanks Jen for this.  I have been able to have a quick look at the next census and can’t see William and Mary Ann Brabant.  I have been able to check Selby who presumably married in same venue.  An online family tree does not pin point the venue but Selby seems to have lived in the Westgate area so where he and William married may have been around that area.  A Mary A Brabant marries a George E Gash or Cash in 1917 in Carlisle.  Might she be William’s 'widow' either through death or discardment, I wonder?
Even if it all turns out that William Brabant might have no connection to Giovanni, I do think it is now worth serious consideration that Giovanni may have had an alias.  Although, we don’t have any strong links or leads as yet, I am still hopeful something might turn up.  Perhaps if more could be found out about mysterious daughter Elizabeth this might lead to something.  If all fails, there is still hope that she may turn up on the 1921 census with more clues.  Her baby John’s birth does not appear to have been registered and he seemingly disappears too after leaving the workhouse.

By the way, I wonder if Elizabeth's name as 'Moralee' might have been a spelling mistake on the Great War record of brother Vincent alias Frank Spence/Spencer? 

If it turns out Giovanni did have an alias, I wonder if this might have been something Italian sounding as since he came to this country as an adult perhaps he retained his Italian accent so he wouldn’t have been able to pretend to be a local.  Perhaps, he might have stuck to a familiar occupation such as music, ice cream making or I think most likely, tailoring.  Any such alias would likely also be around the same age as Giovanni.
Solving the original purpose of this thread is certainly proving to be challenging – but I am still optimistic that it still might be done.   :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 04 December 19 23:03 GMT (UK)
I am optimistic too RTL! Trying to look back though everything to see if anything makes more sense on second look...

I might try again on the Bolton Union minutes for Elizabeth...

Another thing I am following up.... Giovanni's second wife, Anastasia Whelan/nee Finley and her children... can't find any of them on the 1911 census  ???  Anastasia's daughter Mary Alice was godmother to a few of the younger of Giovanni's children... wonder why she didn't take on her responsibility in the event of them being orphaned  ???

Also Georgina Battista's descendants... still waiting on a response from my DNA contact and hoping that some light might be shed on Giovanni or indeed Vincent / Frank Spence - Georgina was next of kin on his service record and was the one who completed the form that noted Elizabeth as E A Moralee.





Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 05 December 19 14:16 GMT (UK)

Also, Giovanni's  Elizabeth and Antonio appear to have been baptised twice.  In volumes at North Shields library they are both recorded as having been baptised at St Peter North Shields.

Elizabeth on 17 October 1886 parents John & Elizabeth Ellen.

RTL, can you point me to Elizabeth’s other baptism, please? I can’t seem to find it on this thread (it must be there somewhere though  :-\ )
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 06 December 19 23:03 GMT (UK)
Apologies, no I don't think I can spot a previous baptism for Elizabeth either.  It is such a long thread but I thought I had found another for her in the past but perhaps there is only the one at St Peters.

On page 11 post 96 Antonio seems to have had another baptism at St Cuthbert RC Church in addition to the St Peter one I came across recently in a volume at the library.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 07 December 19 19:36 GMT (UK)
Currently I know that Antonio and William Armstrong that were baptised twice.... in fact, William Armstrong was christened in Christ Church, Tynemouth at birth and then baptised at St Mary's aged 5!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 07 December 19 19:41 GMT (UK)
Also received the death certificate for the Thomas George Matthews who may or may not be James Battista... no definitive info I'm afraid  :-\

Informant was his nephew... not a name I have heard of before... going to see if I can find any marriages of that name with the children of Lily and 'Thomas'.

Occupation noted as a 'Storekeeper (Retired) - if it is him, perhaps he settled down eventually  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 07 December 19 22:37 GMT (UK)
That was quick, Sophie!  What a coincidence that would be for those names and given birth date if it isn't James Battista.  Hopefully, you will find  something more to support the theory that he was James. 

If this is him, as a storekeeper, it does sound like he might have settled down in life.   :)

I don't know what part of Durham he may have died in.  Possibly he might have had an Evening Chronicle death notice if it wasn't too far from Newcastle.  If you think it might help I could check to see if there might have been an EC death notice if you can post date of death.  A death notice might reveal if he was the husband or Widower of Lily, which might clinch things.  (Of course, I would not post concerning any adult children's names who may still be alive.) I suppose there might also be the possibility that he might have left Lily/married someone else.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 08 December 19 08:29 GMT (UK)
Fab idea RTL - that would be great thank you... did have a quick look on Findmypast but can't see anything.

Don't have a definite death date but the registry entry is July 1983, district is Durham Eastern.

But do have an Ancestry contact who appears to be descended from one of James son's by Lily - watch this space!  :)


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Sunday 08 December 19 09:01 GMT (UK)
Don't have a definite death date but the registry entry is July 1983, district is Durham Eastern.

I thought you said you'd got his death certificate? That should contain the date and place of death/
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 08 December 19 09:07 GMT (UK)
 Oh yes!!  Sorry  :-[.  Its 7th August 1983!!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Sunday 08 December 19 09:11 GMT (UK)
The place of death?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 08 December 19 09:31 GMT (UK)
It says Seaham I think... County Durham. 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 08 December 19 14:50 GMT (UK)
The next time I can get to the Newcastle library I will check the Evening Chronicle just in case.  However, I think if he died in Seaham any notice might be in another newspaper which will not be at the library.  I am not sure but perhaps the Sunderland newspaper, if this might be sold in Seaham. 

I hope there might be a RootsChatter who might know if this might know if the Sunderland newspaper is sold there. 

Also, if so, possibly if there might be a RootsChatter in the Sunderland area they might be willing to check for a notice in the Sunderland local studies.

I am not sure where someone in the Seaham area might be buried/cremated?  I have feeling in might be outside the area records held by Tyne and Wear Archives.

In your and Elliesboys enquiries, at least you know from your other thread that James' war service record shows that he had a finger or two amputated.  This should certainly help in identifying if Thomas was really James if you can locate someone who might have known him.

I will get back at some point in the next few weeks when I can next fit in with Newcastle libraries opening times and have  checked the EC paper.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Sunday 08 December 19 14:59 GMT (UK)
The next time I can get to the Newcastle library I will check the Evening Chronicle just in case.  However, I think if he died in Seaham any notice might be in another newspaper which will not be at the library.  I am not sure but perhaps the Sunderland newspaper, if this might be sold in Seaham. 

To save you looking, the EC is online for August 1983, so I've looked though each issue from 9th to 20th August, nothing found I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 08 December 19 15:32 GMT (UK)
Thanks, Jen.  At least you have saved me some time checking out the Newcastle paper.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 08 December 19 15:48 GMT (UK)
https://www2.darlington.gov.uk/documents/20528/40284/Newspapers+in+stock.pdf/d12409f8-1b53-41fb-85d4-1d440f3ee48f

Sophie, do you think it might be worth a try putting out another (look up) thread to see if it might be possible for someone to visit the Darlington local studies.  I think the newspaper for Seaham might be the Northern Echo.  I think this library/local studies might hold the editions which might have a (possible) death notice for him.  Asking on this thread might not come to the notice of someone who might be able to undertake this - that is why I am wondering if another thread might be best?

Hopefully, if he could be linked to 'Lily' this might clinch things better for you and Elliesboys.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 10 December 19 10:53 GMT (UK)
Thanks for checking the EC Jen  :)

I think its worth a try RTL - have just posted a request, hopefully on the right board! I agree we just need to link 'Thomas' to Lily to solve James' mystery.  Still hoping to get a reply from this new ancestry contact....
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 10 December 19 11:04 GMT (UK)
Yes, I do hope there might be someone in Darlington who might do this look up.  This could really help to clinch things. 

By the way in post 486 I put 1880 for the year of Antonio's baptism but it was 1888 just to clarify. I know when I sent the info to you Sophie I wrote the correct year.   I saw the baptism entries in volumes originally.  I have since had time to look up the full entries now on microfilm at the library (St Peter, North Shields) - by the way looking more closely Father has name as Giovannio in one baptism.

Entry 450
October 17 1886
Elizabeth Ann
John & Elizabeth Battista
Steel's Quay, Clive Street
Musician

Entry 183
December 26 1888
Antonio
Giovannio & Elizabeth Ellen Battista
2 Lishman's Quay
Tailor
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Tuesday 10 December 19 11:54 GMT (UK)
Thanks for checking the EC Jen  :)

I think its worth a try RTL - have just posted a request, hopefully on the right board! I agree we just need to link 'Thomas' to Lily to solve James' mystery.  Still hoping to get a reply from this new ancestry contact....

Hi Sophie

I've just seen your post requesting a look up. It may help if you give a name and a date? People may not offer if they think you want them to look through the entire year. Its always best to give specific info.

If no offers are forthcoming it may be worth asking the library
https://www2.darlington.gov.uk/documents/20528/40284/Initial+information+sheet.pdf/78f5cdbe-0b75-4f22-88e9-705df98a8d2b

As you have a date of death it may come under the heading of a short search and, as such, there may not be a charge.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 12 December 19 17:02 GMT (UK)
I’m pleased to say that I’m pretty sure I’ve discovered what happened to Elizabeth Ann Battista  :D

The last definite sighting of her was admission to Tynemouth Workhouse 12th October 1912, together with a child ‘John’ aged 5 months, transferred from Bolton Union (see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6509263#msg6509263)

I discovered that the records for Fishpool Workhouse in Bolton are available on Family Search, so I scanned the birth register for 1912, and discovered a birth on 31st March 1912, mother’s name Elizabeth Lawson, child’s name Jack. Importantly, Lawson was the maiden surname of Elizabeth Battista’s mother, Elizabeth Ellen https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJS-QHXN?cat=375199

In 1917 a mysterious Elizabeth A. Moralee is listed among the blood relatives on Frank Spence’s military papers (see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6676382#msg6676382 )

I found an Elizabeth Moralee in the Electoral Registers, with a John T Moralee, in various parts of Newcastle pre-1939, and immediately post-1945 at 117 St Lawrence Square. An index address search of the 1939 register revealed three people called ‘Maralee’ living in one household at St Lawrence Square in 1939: John T,. Elizabeth and John H, the latter born 1912. The birthdate for John H exactly matches that for Jack ‘Lawson’. The birthdate for Elizabeth is 1883, which isn’t a match.

However, given John’s birthdate my feeling is that this family is Elizabeth (Battista) , husband John T Moralee and her son Jack (now John) Lawson now taking the name of possible stepfather John Moralee.

We know that the Battista family were Roman Catholics: Elizabeth Moralee's death was recorded at St Dominics Roman Catholic Church on 15th September 1949, address still 117 St Lawrence Square, age 59 (i.e. born 1890, again not a match for what we know). She was buried at All Saints Cemetery. There was a death notice in 1949 and an ‘In Memoriam’ in the E.C. the following year but these only mentioned husband John T Moralee.

The only mystery left, to my mind, is whether she was one of the two Elizabeths who married a John T Moralee in 1917. Did she marry as Jennings or Patterson using yet another alias? As the Elizabeth I found appears to have been Roman Catholic RTL has very kindly today looked at marriages at St Dominic’s and St Andrew’s Roman Catholic Churches but found nothing (St Mary’s online and no result). Maybe these Moralee marriages in 1917 were at the Register Office?

Thoughts welcomed, but I’m pretty convinced it’s the right woman.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 15 December 19 20:08 GMT (UK)
First thought it WOW! Thats fantastic Jen - thank you! The wall is currently being broken down in great big chunks  :D

Second thought is I can't get over all these alias's!  But, as RTL as said before I think, it makes it incredibly, incredibly likely that Giovanni will have used one and died under one.

I agree that this has to be our Elizabeth!  Although her birth date on the 1939 Register is out by 3 years and the day is 8 days after her baptism ( 17th vs. 25th), the month of October is the same. And with her son John - the name and birth date - too many coincidences for it not to be her.

Would be great to find a definitive marriage with some other piece of matching info that would clinch it - thanks to RTL for checking out the parish records already  ;)

I'm going to put all this new info into my tree and see if Ancestry turns up anything else - fingers crossed.

This really is amazing!  :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 15 December 19 22:53 GMT (UK)
Thanks also to Boo for your suggestion - only just saw your message… I wasn't sure whether to wait for a reply before giving the details on the request thread  :-[
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 15 December 19 23:01 GMT (UK)
One final thing before I try and switch off lol… I was contacted today by one of Georgina Battista's great grandchildren!  Watch this space!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 16 December 19 12:08 GMT (UK)
Yes, I agree Sophie, this latest new development unravelled by Jen is quite amazing!  :D

Well done Jen on this great detective work!  :D I would be interested to know what the entry may have recorded when Elizabeth first went in to the workhouse.  I wonder if a next if kin may have been recorded and if this might have been Giovanni under an alias?

As there were two John T Moralees who married in 1917 I wonder if they were Father and son - one who married Elizabeth and perhaps his Father who might have remarried as a widower, perhaps?

So, Elizabeth went under her Mother's maiden name at least once and James used Lily's Mother's maiden name and in one newspaper report it was recorded he had used his Mother's name as an alias.   Vincent appears to have chosen his brother in law's name as his alias.  I wonder if Giovanni might have chosen a family connected name as an alias - it would certainly make it easier to remember. 

Sophie, as we don't know what name married under as yet - Patterson or Jenkins - just a long shot but do you know if either of these two names might have had a family connection? 

Last week I looked at the RC Churches and could not find a marriage for Elizabeth.  I also looked at a huge file containing the Byker Anglican marriages (as they have a recording as having lived at St Lawrence Square).  However, could not find a Byker area marriage either.  Of course, they could have married elsewhere in Newcastle at another Church or as has already been mentioned at a registry office.

On battista's first posts he reported Elizabeth was missing from the 1911 census - I now wonder if she might be hiding somewhere - perhaps Bolton - under her 'Lawson' alias?

Looking forward to watching this space, Sophie. :)  I guess we just never know when that all important clue might come forth which might lead to Giovanni!  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 17 December 19 19:16 GMT (UK)
Just another update from the Tynemouth workhouse volumes ..

Elizabeth A Battista with baby John returned to the workhouse on Friday Feb 7th 1913.  He is now under the name of John G Battista born 1912.  She is recorded as born 1888.  They are both under EC for religion.  Elizabeth was to have a 'Plain diet'.  They are admitted from the Tynemouth area.

They are both discharged on May 8th 1914.  Elizabeth is recorded as leaving on 'Own Desire' and 'John G' as taken out by Mother.

There is a gap of seven years in the volumes between 1914 until 1921.

James Battista re-enters the workhouse on Friday January 28 1921.  He is a 'Discharged soldier',  RC in religion and born 1899.  He was to have an 'Infirm Diet'.

James discharges himself the same day and it was recorded 'Refused to Stay'.

James re-enters the workhouse the very next day on 29 January 1921.  This time his birth year is 1900.  He is recorded as 'ex soldier', RC and he was to have an 'Infirm Diet'.

James discharges himself again the following year on Feb 27 1922 and it was recorded that this was under 'Own Desire'.

The next volume of workhouse admissions  is restricted access (only by staff) and not available for general viewing.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 17 December 19 21:31 GMT (UK)
Interesting stuff RTL thank you... these workhouse volumes are fab, but its a shame there’s the gaps and some are unavailable... can either ever be made available?

I wonder what an ‘infirm diet’ was?

Notable that Elizabeth’s son was John G..... the 1939 register is transcribed as John W but I thought it looked more like a G.  Obviously also adds weight being a family name.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 18 December 19 10:55 GMT (UK)
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/life/food.shtml

I wondered about the 'infirm diet' too - would someone get more or less food on this?  However, the above link seems to suggest they got more.  Meat based meals, tea, and milk.  I daresay, James may have been in a bad way physically coming back from the war and might have needed building up.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 19 December 19 21:16 GMT (UK)
Hi Sophie,

Just to clarify - it seems like there isn't a big gap in the workhouse records between 1914 and 1921 after all.

I have found some entries I made a good while back in an old note book about records which are held at the archives for Tynemouth admissions & discharges.  In my note book amongst my notes for the volumes I found this:

Ref: PU/TY/2/1/18
1 Jan 1914 - 31 Oct 1919

Ref: PU.TY/2/1/19
1 Nov 1919 - 10 May 1924

The other day when I was using the Poor law Union reference book I was obliged to share with another archive user who also wanted to use this.  I wonder if I accidentally looked at the wrong references page and that this is what made me think that there was a big gap?  However, fortunately as it turns out it appears that there is no big gap as I previously wrote there was.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: emmadog on Thursday 19 December 19 22:01 GMT (UK)
May I say what an interesting post this turned out to be. Came across it by chance but it has kept me enthralled for four days on and off. Couldn’t wait to pick up my phone again to check next posts. It’s amazing how you all 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Gradually come up with your answers (or maybe not answers just more puzzles) You could make a film out of this and I would still be captivated by the story. Thanks to all for letting me be part if only reading the posts.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 21 December 19 10:31 GMT (UK)
Hi emmadog,

I agree that the Battista story is such a fascinating one.  So much intrigue and often more puzzles than answers.

I think this would make a very good brickwall type documentary.  I would love for some 'experts' to come along on TV and finally be able to solve what did happen to Giovanni.  At the moment we can only speculate as to what really happened.  I wonder if something sinister might have been going on such as if Giovanni might have been in trouble with loan sharks and in fear of his life perhaps.  He might have had to create an alias/go into hiding and send his children to the workhouse for safety.  I do tend to less accept the idea that he deserted, somehow, even though this was recorded at the workhouse.  Do you have any theories so far?

I can almost hear Sophie saying 'LOL, RTL' perhaps at my mafia type speculation. ;D  ;)

Oh well, I am certainly looking forward what may be revealed in 2020.  Hopefully, all will be revealed eventually.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: emmadog on Saturday 21 December 19 19:03 GMT (UK)
I think it is the best post I have ever read. Took me long enough thouh, four days on and off.
As to your theory of loan sharks hmmmm. I would not be surprised at all. I seem to think there were "mafia type goings on" especially in Newcastle. I did work for an Italian family years ago and they were far from whiter than white. Must say lady of the family was very nice but others---- say no more! I do not think he deserted the family because at least he was kind enough to make sure they were cared for if only in the workhouse (not perfect but can imagine better than totally deserted at the time.)
I spoke to my cousin who has Italian relatives and he also says some strange goings on in the family. They also had ice cream vans!!!
I really hope the mystery gets unravelled (sooner the better as I don't think I can bear the suspense😂😂)
It has been interesting reading about the workhouse as my own grandad turned out to be born in Gateshead Workhouse which was a complete shock to all of us. Not really found out much more about him though.
Well, sorry for the tome, hope you have a good christmas and a very happy new year.
Barbara x
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: barryd on Saturday 21 December 19 21:42 GMT (UK)
Durham Records Online has a few Battista names as below. For the full details go onto their site and pay for the full transcript of the names you want. It is very reasonably priced.

Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1911
Elizabeth Ellen
Battista
abt 1909
39 Hedworth Street
 
Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1912
Anthony
Battista
abt 1889

 
Marriages
Newcastle
1919
William Armstrong
Battista
abt 1896
90 Molineux Street
 
Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1943
Ruth
Battista
abt 1943
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Rena on Sunday 22 December 19 00:03 GMT (UK)

I wonder what an ‘infirm diet’ was?


I know what an "infirm diet" was when I was a youngster.   It was anything soft that would glide down the throat.  Would those infirm people have good teeth or no teeth to speak of?

A favourite to give children was hot milk poured over pieces of bread, with maybe a teaspoon of rum and a sprinkle of sugar to make the food palatable.  It was known as pappe/pap. I've seen my mother have this too when she had a cold and a sore throat.   I've heard "gruel" was given to invalids too.

"pap (plural paps)

    (uncountable) Food in the form of a soft paste, often a porridge, especially as given to very young children.

        Pap can be made from bread boiled in milk or water.

Origins unclear. Related to Middle Low German pappe, Dutch pap, Old French papa/pape, Latin pappa, Bulgarian папам (papam, “to eat”) and Serbo-Croatian папати/papati (“to eat”), among others. The relationships between these words are difficult to reconstruct. An (independent?) origin in imitative baby-talk, leading to constant reformation and renewal, is the best explanation in view of German Pappe (“pap, mush, porridge for children; sticky, mushy substance, paste, glue”), which fails to show the effects of the High German sound shift (no shifted form appears to be attested, making borrowing from Low German an unsatisfying explanation).
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 23 December 19 21:54 GMT (UK)
LOL RTL! Mafia! Anything is possible I suppose  ;D. We have definitely wondered if there is a more sinister reason for Giovanni's disappearance... he was definitely the black sheep of the three Battista brothers.

Thanks for everyones continued interest - it really helps to have as much input as this.. its the reason we have come as far as we have with this.  Fab info about the infirm diet Rena thank you.  And appreciate your Durham Records look up Barryd - the Battista's are a huge family!  I know much of all those you mentioned  :)

I too am looking forward to what may revealed in 2020 - can't wait!!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 24 December 19 09:50 GMT (UK)
I knew you would say that Sophie! (LOL) ;D ;)

Actually, I was in the North Shields area last night so popped in to have a look at the workhouse 'Minutes' volumes to see if there might be anything mentioned about the food/diets.  In the past I have only looked at the references to people.
Well, it turns out that there were detailed accounts about what was bought in from local tradespeople (these are named as well).  What I saw completely seems to blow away the stereotype about what might be imagined a workhouse might provide.  The food lists contained all sorts - a wide variety of food too much to mention and an assortment of drinks.  There were different types of meat, fish (tinned salmon was on a list) cheeses, fruit (I remember seeing pineapple) loads of stuff .. nothing like you might imagine for workhouse fare.  Tea for the staff cost more than for the inmates so I suppose there must have been a quality difference.
From what I read there also appeared to be an infirm ward in the workhouse as well as a padded room!!  Perhaps James was in poor shape when he got back from the army and went on infirm ward? 
I also stumbled on an entry for John J Playford in the 1913/14 volume (page 259).  I think he will be Dorothy Battista nee Playford's Father.  Apparently, someone called 'Mrs Wilson' of North Shields wanted to be reimbursed for the cost of his interment in the interim of waiting for an insurance policy to be paid out.  This was agreed upon. 

Merry Christmas Everyone!  Here's hoping for more sleuthing in 2020 .. Giovanni has escaped again this year but hopefully we will catch up with him sooner or later!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 24 December 19 10:35 GMT (UK)
I have read a few articles RTL concerning the Workhouse conditions and it does seem as it by the early part of the 20th Century things had improved a lot in terms of the conditions and how inmates, children particularly, were treated.

So regarding John J Playford... Probably just another co-incidence, but I am thinking now of Isabella Wilson who was the woman named on John George Battista pensions as the unmarried mother to his child, born 1912.  John James was definitely Dorothy's father as per her and James' marriage cert  ???

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 24 December 19 11:04 GMT (UK)
Hi Sophie,

This is the entry:

'John J Playford
The Committee had before them a report from Mr. C. A. Smith, relieving officer as to the claim from Mrs Wilson, of North Shields, to be refunded the sum of £2 6s 1d., expenses incurred by her in the interment of a Hospital inmate named John J. Playford.
Resolved. "That the Master be authorised to pay the claim set out out of the sum of £5 7s 6d at present in his possession from the insurance policy." '

 As you think this might be John George's Isabella I will have a look at the volumes again in the New Year to see if there might be any more about her.  Possibly not but it might be worth another look just in case.  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 24 December 19 12:17 GMT (UK)
Thank you RTL 😊

Merry Christmas Everyone!!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 27 December 19 08:04 GMT (UK)
Just a thought

Isabella down as Isabella Griffiths Wilson on John George's pension record

.. an Isabella Jane Wilson mmn Griffiths born West Derby 1890 ..

might there be any connection?  Might she have ended up in Tynemouth I wonder?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 27 December 19 13:06 GMT (UK)
Hi RTL

If you are referring to John George Battisa, pte 4088, Northumberland Fusiliers who was killed in action 05.11. 1918 then ..

His entry in the register of soldiers effects (available on ancestry) names his sole legatee as Isabella Wilson (no middle name recorded). Which I assume means that his will (available from the Probate site) named her as his beneficiary. The will may have mentioned a middle name, but the register does not.

However, his pension record card (available on Fold 3) says his widow is Emma (d.o.b. 11.02.92), of 27 Church St. North Shields.
In the section for children it names a Lily Anderson (born before wedlock, d.o.b. 31.08.1910) whose guardian was a Mr John Samuel Anderson.

It appears to say that John George and Emma are separated, and a pension (for the child) is not issuable as long as child is eligible for Separation Allowance in respect of No. 33503 Robert Allen , Northumberland Fusiliers.

A further note says
"authorised to issue  pension of 5/- a week in respect of Lily Anderson (so presumably the separation allowance by Robert Allen was no longer in effect) this is written in red and the last line 'appears' to be obscured by another entry in black which says 18.6.17 taking into consideration any Dis Pens which may have been awarded the child re step-father"

and, on the reverse of the card, it says
" the special G.C. decision 26.3.18. widow not eligible for pension but pension for child Lily should be issued"
NB this is just how I read the writing, its scribbled and I may be wrong so would advise the Battista researchers to look at the records to review the above.

I realise its nit picking (sorry!) to point out the differences between a register of effects and a pension record but it is important to note the sources correctly. What makes sense when we first find a record may be very confusing a couple of years down the line and therefore shed doubt on the conclusions we came to - so the searches etc would have to be repeated to confirm.


Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 27 December 19 18:19 GMT (UK)
Thanks for this Boo.  I thought I could remember a dependant's pension  being paid to an Isabella Griffiths Wilson but I can't remember where I might have come across this. Perhaps I am mistaken in this memory.  I seem to remember something about her being a guardian to an Elizabeth Robson - perhaps her child?  Both at 70 Waterloo Road, Blyth?  I can't access the records at the moment but I will try to think on where this might have come from.
I think it is a good thing to nit pick to get things right, by the way, so I do appreciate your help. 





Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 30 December 19 10:46 GMT (UK)
http://www.boltonlams.co.uk/archives/fees-and-charges

Many thanks to the RootsChatter who has contacted to say that Bolton Archives will do 20 minutes of research free.  (I have pm'd back but I am not sure you have received this)  Might this be of any help, Sophie for you to contact them for this 20 mins free research? 

Working back from the birth of Elizabeth (Battista)  Lawson's son's birth (Jack Lawson born 31 March 1912) it might be possible to find her entry when she went into the workhouse within 20 mins.
I think males and females were kept apart so it is more likely he was conceived outside workhouse and that Elizabeth went in in the preceeding months/weeks/days of son's birth.  I wonder the entry  might say more re her next of kin, possibly the 'William a tailor' referenced at Tynemouth?

By the way, I can't see any more references to John James Playford and 'Mrs Wilson' who may or may not have been John George Battista's common law wife.  However, there is info about John J Playford's burial at the library - he died at the workhouse and was buried at Preston Cemetery on 21 Sept 1913.  Grave number looks like 8172 consecrated.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 30 December 19 12:44 GMT (UK)
I believe that James Battista 'reinvented' himself with the surname Mathews/Matthews.

We know from RTL's look up that he was born 18th August 1899.

St Cuthbert RC baptism
Jacobus Battista
Born 18 August 1899
Bapt 6 Sept 1899
Son of Joannis & Elizabethae (Helene?) olim Lawson
Grandparents Donatus Alvini & Jane Reid

Using the free search on the 1939 register I looked for the surname Matthews (with variants) in Newcastle upon Tyne with that birthdate. I didn't find anyone, but extending it to one year either side I found a Thomas G Matthews born 18th August 1898.

In the same household was a Lily Mathews born 1915 and a James V Matthews born 1939.

freeBMD shows a Lily Macauley born Newcastle upon Tyne 3rd q. 1915 and a quick check on the 1939 free index confirms Lily Mathews' month of birth as August.

free BMD shows James V Mathews born Newcastle upon Tyne, 3rd q. 1939 mother's maiden surname Macauley

There are three other Mathews births in Newcastle upon Tyne between 1933 and 1938 mother's maiden surname Macauley. Two of them have the middle initial 'B'.

We know that he married as George J. Battista alias George J. Matthews and it seems to me that by 1939 he's become Thomas G Matthews.

I am still hacking away at the very edges of this family, and think I might have discovered what happened to Lily Macauley/Battista/Matthews. I am being very careful with names as some of the people involved may still be alive.

Lily and James appear to have had four children all of whom were registered with the surname Mathews (i.e. one 't')

It looks like the son who was with them in 1939 died in Coventry in 2006. The date of birth on his death registration is identical to that on the 1939. This son also appears to have married in Coventry in 1961.

I noticed that another of their children married in Coventry in 1952.

Then I noticed the birth of two children in 1946 and 1948 in Coventry whose births were registered as Mathews cross-referenced to the surnames Matthews and Smith. In both cases the mother's maiden surname was Macauley. There was also a possible child born 1945.

There was a marriage in Coventry in 1949 of a Lily Macauley and a Charles Smith, followed by the birth of a child also in 1949.

There was then the death of a Lily Smith aged 51 (i.e. born 1915/16 - we know 'our' Lily was born in 1915) in Coventry in 1967. An article in the Coventry Evening Telegraph indicates that this Lily had a husband named Charles and a daughter whose christian name matched that of the child born in 1949.

My feeling is that this is very likely 'our' Lily.

I have sent full details including names to Sophie by PM.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 30 December 19 12:50 GMT (UK)
Brilliant Jen - as discussed I agree this is so likely to be 'our' Lily.  Still no contact from any of the Matthews descendants I have contacted but still hopeful.

RTL - I will definitely get on to Bolton next week.. that entry could prove very interesting.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 30 December 19 12:57 GMT (UK)
And for reference here is the document that shows Isabella Wilson 'Griffiths' and Elizabeth Robson as the guardian of their child.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 30 December 19 13:03 GMT (UK)
I also have John George's Military Will as follows.... two separate entries both noting Isabella 'Bella' Wilson as beneficiary.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 30 December 19 13:18 GMT (UK)
Plus.... I have a lovely picture of an Isabella Wilson from the T&W Tynemouth Criminal Mugshots book from April 1908 and was recently looking through the newspaper archives to see if I could discover her crime and if I could link her to the Battista's...   I came across an article from June 1908 regarding an Isabella 'Fairbairn' Wilson of North Shields who had been involved in a bigamous marriage to a Thomas Huscroft. However Thomas Huscroft had married her under the name of Thomas William ROBSON!  So, if Isabella and John George's child's guardian was an Elizabeth Robson... could this be a link? 

Very tenuous I know!  But the use of alias's and practise of bigamy appears to be common place - so many coincidences!!  :o :( :-\
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 30 December 19 13:56 GMT (UK)
Some fantastic work from Jen!  I, too, agree that this must be Lily!
 
This is what I believe to be the write up from the newspaper regarding Isabella’s (shown above in photo) crime.  I think the newspaper likely got mixed up with the name.  I am not surprised as I have noticed this type of thing before with my own ancestors.  I think the name on that wonderful  mugshot photo will be the correct one.

‘Shields Daily News – Wednesday 8 April 1908
‘THEFT FROM A BACKYARD
At North Shields Police Court to-day, Elizabeth Wilson (16), and George Wilson (15) South Shields, were charged with having stolen from the backyard of a house in Park Crescent an overcoat, value 5s, the property of John F Phillips, on the 7th – Christina Phillips, wife of the prosecutor deposed to missing the overcoat and giving information to the police. P.C. Pallister said that he was on duty in George Street yesterday when he saw the accused.  The girl had something bulky under her jacket.  He asked what she was carrying, and she replied that it was a jacket belonging to her mother.    He told her to produce it, and when she unfastened her jacket he found the missing overcoat, a description of which had been given to the police.  He charged them with having stolen it, and they made no reply.  He therefore brought them to the police station.  The magistrates fined them each 5s and 5s costs, with the alternative of seven days’ imprisonment.’

I have noticed in the will above that the Isabella mentioned was from 4 Empress Street, South Shields .. so it may be possible that the girl mentioned in the theft above might be the same person.  When I can next get to the archives I will check to see if there is also a photo of George Wilson under the same date.  I really think the name Elizabeth would have been an error in the newspaper.

This is the Christ Church, marriage entry for the Isabella who married bigamously in North Shields ..

Entry 428
June 14 1908
Thomas William Robson & Isabella Fairbairn Wilson
His Age 30
Her Age 28
Bachelor & Spinster
Miner
His residence: 3 West Percy Street
Her residence: 36 Church Street
Fathers:
Joseph Robson (deceased) - Miner
John Wilson - Unclear - looks something like Mineral Guard or Musical Guard or similar?
He signed with a mark.  She signed her name.
Witnesses: John Wilson & Emma (Softley?)

This Thomas' real name was Thomas Huscroft and his first legal marriage had taken place on February 28, 1897 according to the newspaper report of their bigamy trial.

As there are two different ages these two Isabellas are likely not one and the same.  Perhaps if more information might come out at a later point it might be possible, hopefully, to identify which Isabella was the common law wife of John George - whether it was one of these two or perhaps someone totally different.

I wonder who the child was?  Are they referring to a child between Isabella and John George?  Or the child Lily Anderson born to wife Emma Anderson?  There was a 24 year old Lily Anderson who died in the September quarter in Tynemouth in 1935.  She is not in Preston Cemetery.  Perhaps she might have been buried at Blyth Cemetery near to the address of Elizabeth Robson shown at Waterloo Road, Blyth.

Regarding Church Street .. I think I remember a link with one of the Battistas and Church Street .. will have to try to remember where this might be ..

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 30 December 19 14:44 GMT (UK)
Found the link to Church Street!

It is on an earlier post of mine on page 19 of this thread post 167

I took a photo of the memorial boards in the Memorial Garden at the Linskill Centre, North Shields showing the names of the two Battista Brothers John George and Vincent.

John George comes under Church Street .. drat!  it looks as if the photo misses off the house number .. although perhaps if there is a number shown it may not necessarily be of relevance.

There was an Isabella Fairbairn Wilson born 1880 in Tynemouth with Mother's maiden name of 'Wells'.  A family tree has parents possibly as John Wilson and Frances Wells who married at Christ Church on 1 August 1874.  Siblings were Jane, Mary, Andrewina, Elizabeth and Benjamin.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 30 December 19 15:43 GMT (UK)
Just a thought according to the Shields Daily News Article (entitled 'Tynemouth Bigamy Case' 21 October 1908) regarding the bigamy trial Isabella's sister Elizabeth seems to have been the common law wife of Thomas's brother according to the brother although Elizabeth herself claimed that they had married at a registry office.  The article reports that Thomas was known as 'Robson' at the colliery. 

Could it be that the Elizabeth mentioned as the guardian might actually be Isabella's sister?

Or alternatively, the South Shields Isabella may be Isabella Waltey Heron Wilson MMN Swindales birth registered March 1893 perhaps the one born 31 December 1892 baptised at St Hilda on 2 August 1893 parents Joseph and Mary Wilson.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 30 December 19 16:38 GMT (UK)
Shields Daily News - 4 August 1917 gives John George's address as 27 Church Street.


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Monday 30 December 19 17:37 GMT (UK)
And for reference here is the document that shows Isabella Wilson 'Griffiths' and Elizabeth Robson as the guardian of their child.

Apologies to RTL et al, I had no idea that there could be two pension card for one man - the one I looked at was definitely the same man as this one but with different info, as I posted. The card I looked at said Lily's guardian was a Mr John Samuel Anderson.

<have made a note to check for extra cards next time I look at a pension record>

Battista researchers must only dream about finding someone in their tree who is straightforward to research!

Boo

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 02 January 20 14:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Boo,

Absolutely no need to apologise - it is reasonable to think in most circumstances there would have been only one pension record ... Happy New Year, by the way!

Anyway, here the latest update ..

Tynemouth Workhouse Admissions May 13th 1914:

Battista, Eliz. Ann 
Domestic Servant age 27
RC Religion
with son Jack Battista age 2
Address 22 Church Street
Nearest Relative  : Brother John G Battista (?) Stairs, Little Bedford St. N. Shields
Jack's nearest relative: 'Mother in House'

Both left on Sept 8th 1914  at 9.30 am - both down as RC religion.

I can't see them thereafter in the workhouse registers right up to the cut up point when the public aren't permitted general viewing.

Also might this be John George's Isabella in the 'Maternity Register'?

Isabella Wilson
Age 32
Single
Presentation: R.O.P.
2nd pregnancy
Sister Young & Sister Whalley, Nursed by Sister William Under supervision of Dr Mairland
Date of Delivery 19.3.12  at 8.45 p.m.
Child's Name: James
5 lbs
1st stage (?) very rigid 56 hours  3rd stage & 20 minutes child had convulsion, died 102 hours after birth

Also, I have no idea if this person might possibly be Giovanni - possibly not by profession, religion and age (although age can sometimes be out.)  Name is not quite Battista either but similar.  I thought I would just mention it anyway as he had entered from the Newcastle Workhouse.  I think when someone transferred from one workhouse to another it might have been because they were going to what might have been considered their home area.   Anyway, just in case  here is the info  ..

John Baptist
Labourer
EC
Address 26 Carliol St.
Came from Newcastle Union
Entered Tynemouth Workhouse on Nov 24 1914 age 78
Dead April 11 1916  10.10 am age 80
Nearest Relative: Mrs (Rood?)  (Fellside?) Hexham

https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/carliol-street/

By the way, there is a George William Wilson in the Police Identification book also under the date of 8.4.1908.

There is also a Thomas Huscroft under the date of 6.7.1908

There is also a Thomas Robson - False Pretences 9.9.02  not sure if there is any connection.  I only got time to look at the reference book and didn't get time to actually look at that wonderful album again today.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 02 January 20 15:27 GMT (UK)
battista, perhaps you were right after all that Giovanni may have gone back to Italy!! :o  If the following record is true .. it looks as if Elizabeth might have told someone her Father was in Italy.

I have just found this record in the creed register of Newcastle Workhouse.

Reference: HO.NGH.88/2 

It looks like Elizabeth and son next went to the Newcastle Workhouse.  Son's date of birth seems to be a year out but I do think these are them.  I have kept to the spelling shown in the volume as it appears Battiste/Battista.

'All Saints
Date of Admission: 1.10.14
Battiste, Elizabeth  Year of birth 1887
Clothing No: 435
Relatives: Fa - Battista    Italy
Occupation: Single
Church of England
Battiste, John George   Year of birth 1911
Clothing No: 30
Relatives: Mo. in Hospital
Both: From whence admitted: Silver Street
Both discharged: 3.11.14

https://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4080814072

https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/silver-street-medieval-newcastle/


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Thursday 02 January 20 21:20 GMT (UK)
battista, perhaps you were right after all that Giovanni may have gone back to Italy!! :o  If the following record is true .. it looks as if Elizabeth might have told someone her Father was in Italy.

I have just found this record in the creed register of Newcastle Workhouse.

Reference: HO.NGH.88/2 

It looks like Elizabeth and son next went to the Newcastle Workhouse.  Son's date of birth seems to be a year out but I do think these are them.  I have kept to the spelling shown in the volume as it appears Battiste/Battista.

'All Saints
Date of Admission: 1.10.14
Battiste, Elizabeth  Year of birth 1887
Clothing No: 435
Relatives: Fa - Battista    Italy
Occupation: Single
Church of England
Battiste, John George   Year of birth 1911
Clothing No: 30
Relatives: Mo. in Hospital
Both: From whence admitted: Silver Street
Both discharged: 3.11.14

https://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4080814072

https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/silver-street-medieval-newcastle/

Wow! Great work RTL  ;D Thank you very much! I did not get any notifications from this thread, so had no idea there were all these new posts from Sep - now :) Brilliant work everyone, unfortunately, it's been so so long I have a hard time figuring out who all these people were...

It was a while ago now, but I believe when I checked his home town of Cassino's records, I was not able to find a death record there. Perhaps he lived in another town, it's worth a recheck as I'm not 100% sure I went through all the death records. There's a lot of Italian records continually becoming available online, so I do believe eventually it'll be trivial to access this info.

RE: Matthews family, I wrote a letter to all the family members I could find in April of last year, part of this letter is on Google Docs here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12mk_A3Emk6yr5EJKDpRRfZ_pYfJXUlFzhiDHxP41RWI/edit?usp=sharing

Known aliases of James Battista:
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 02 January 20 21:56 GMT (UK)
Hi Battista!  Glad you have caught up!!  Was going to email you  ;).  Have a look at my ancestry tree (via free guest account) if you get time as all documents etc are on there including some great photos and new cousins I've connected with from your branch through DNA.   I found Georgina's branch with some amazing photos. 

You are a star RTL - brilliant find.  These workhouse records are proving very helpful.  Definitely on to check on shipping records - never found anything from 1870s when Vincenzo and Giovanni would have come to UK, nor from 1890s when brother Antonio and family followed... but that was early days in recording immigration.... surely by the 1910s things would have gotten more comprehensive  :-\

At very least that record gives a more concise date range... being noted as in Italy in 1914 but noted as deceased on son Vincent Battista alias Frank Spence service record in 1919 (completed by older sister Georgina when claiming his medals).

Also the record re John Baptist is very interesting - Giovanni and Vincenzo definitely had links to Carliol Street... I believe I have that address on a few records for various members of the family plus I think there was a well know Italian lodging house there.  Going to have a serious think about that one.

There is so much info and so many new leads to work through!  Its coming thick and fast now!  Can't thank you enough  ;D

Also Boo - just to be clear - John George Battista had two 'wives'.  His lawful wife (Jane) Emma Anderson by whom he had Lily Anderson (John Samuel Anderson being Emma's uncle I think as I have them on 1911 census) and his 'unmarried wife'  ??? Isabella Wilson by whom he had another child.. although we don't/didn't know whether it was a son or daughter or what became of them.  Assume the child did survive past infancy as the pension documents are from 1916/1917 I think.  Entirely possible that John George could have fathered two children with Isabella though  :-\

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 03 January 20 08:56 GMT (UK)
I did not get any notifications from this thread, so had no idea there were all these new posts from Sep - now :)

Notifications don't always seem to work: by far the best and easiest way to check if you have any new replies on any thread to which you've contributed is to click on 'New Replies' top left of the Forum page (to the left of the 'Logout' button').
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 03 January 20 11:12 GMT (UK)
You are very welcome!  This is a highly fascinating thread and I am very happy to try to help out with finding out what was going on and what might have happened to Giovanni.
With all the twists and turns, I suppose this may or may not have been true that Giovanni was in Italy but from the Newcastle entry it certainly looks as though this was indicated through what Elizabeth told someone when she and her son entered that workhouse.  Mind, if anything had happened to Elizabeth they would have had a job and a half to find this next of kin with just  Father as ‘Battista’ and Italy to go off.   I think it could be possible that he may have used an alias to go over .. which would complicate things.  (I know from reading the Tynemouth minutes volumes that they did make efforts to locate Fathers who were thought to have ‘deserted’ their family.  I do think I recall one instance where they managed to track a Father to Australia in order to get him to contribute.  However, I have seen in some cases parents seemed to have been deemed unsuitable and then complete Guardianship seems to have been taken over by the workhouse).

I think it will be very interesting to see what the Bolton Workhouse entry record may reveal.  I wonder if there might be any reference to her Father on there?

I have been able to pop into the North Shields library this morning and have looked up some burial records to see if any more info might be revealed.
Preston Cemetery
Entry 272
John Baptist
80 years
Labourer
Place of death: Workhouse
Burial Date: 11 April 1916
Buried Consecrated Ground 9411

The next time I can get to the Newcastle Library I will check just on the offchance he may have had a death notice or/and memoriam from anyone.  (Just in case there might be a Battista connection – with all the alias’ in this thread I think we need to be careful not to rule out anything with a hint of possibility.) 

Preston Cemetery
Entry 2085
James Wilson
Age: 1 Day (This is strange as the maternity register indicates he died when 102 hours old so he would have been more than one day old).
Place of death:  Workhouse
Burial 22 March 1912
Buried Unconsecrated Ground 6076a

As his place of death is given as the workhouse and not ’50 Preston Road’ which was the euphemism for the hospital, the next time I can get back to the archives I will check to see if Isabella Wilson might have sought admittance perhaps  as a workhouse inmate rather than a patient.  Possibly, I am thinking ... as perhaps a lot women had their children at home in those days so why did she go to the workhouse .. unless she was already admitted as an inmate?  Perhaps, there might be an address or something which might link her better (or not as the case might be) with John George.

Oh and regarding John George, I see I have accidentally missed off the word ‘Brother’ on Elizabeth’s entry in Tynemouth Workhouse on May 13th 1914.  I have now put this right.

As it happens my email notifications have also stopped working recently but I tend to follow Jen’s good advice these days (as I saw given somewhere else a good while back) about clicking on the replies button. 

I do hope one of the Matthews might eventually get in touch with you regarding your letter.  You and Sophie have put so much work into all this.   :)






Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 03 January 20 11:40 GMT (UK)
Preston Cemetery
Entry 272
John Baptist
80 years
Labourer
Place of death: Workhouse
Burial Date: 11 April 1916
Buried Consecrated Ground 9411

This is probably the same chap in the workhouse in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMH-L2P
and in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS9S-61V

Possible baptism https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J78S-H7H
and 1841 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7W8-CXR
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 03 January 20 11:51 GMT (UK)
Thanks for this Jen.

I think all this likely rules out John Baptist out as being any connection to Giovanni.  At least it means one avenue doesn't need to be explored further.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 03 January 20 23:53 GMT (UK)
Thanks also Jen.. your help is much appreciated.  I agree that does rule John Baptist out as our Giovanni is definitely in Tynemouth with his wife and children on 1901 census  :(. I wonder who he was though!

I'm currently trying to go through my tree and cross reference some of these addresses.. I think the Church Street address has to point to Isabella Fairbairn Wilson being John Georges Isabella.

Thanks for all the checks you are doing RTL... its filling in so many little blanks at lightening speed!  I hope I'm keeping pace!!

By the way, Happy New Year Everyone  :)

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 04 January 20 12:36 GMT (UK)
You are welcome Sophie! 

If you do send off for the Bolton admission next week .. just a reminder that in post 525 Jen discovered that Elizabeth 'Lawson' was in the Fishpool workhouse when she had son 'Jack Lawson'.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJS-QHXN?cat=375199

I don't know the area but I think this might have still been considered a part of Bolton.  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Saturday 04 January 20 12:46 GMT (UK)
You are welcome Sophie! 

If you do send off for the Bolton admission next week .. just a reminder that in post 525 Jen discovered that Elizabeth 'Lawson' was in the Fishpool workhouse when she had son 'Jack Lawson'.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJS-QHXN?cat=375199

I don't know the area but I think this might have still been considered a part of Bolton.  :)

Fishpool was the name by which Bolton Union Workhouse was popularly known. It was built on a site called Fishpool Farm.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Bolton/

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 04 January 20 20:59 GMT (UK)
Ah yes!  Thanks for this Jen.. email sent off so fingers crossed  :D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 08 January 20 15:05 GMT (UK)
I don't know if this might be Elizabeth again in the Newcastle Workhouse.  (Although if so, age is out and no sign of son John/Jack.)  I thought it was worth rechecking further on in case anything else might be written about Giovanni.  Unfortunately, nothing on this Creed register entry:

'All Saints
Battiste, Elizabeth
Clothing No 184
Year born 1893
Religion: RC
Address of relatives:  This is crossed out 'Sis Mrs Rutherford 75 Matilda St'.  Above this crossed out entry is written 'None Known'
Occupation: S. None.
Place whence admitted: 195 Pilgrim Street.
Date Admitted: 18.10.16
Discharged: 17.11.16

I can't see a matching birth on Freebmd for an Elizabeth of this name.

I have checked the Tynemouth Creed registers too, however, although the Battistas are recorded these particular registers give very little information unlike the ones for Newcastle.

In the Tynemouth admissions I have found that Isabella Wilson was admitted on Monday 11 March 1912 at 7.10 pm.  Her nearest relative is listed as 'Father  28 Morpeth Ter. Percy Main.'   Son James was entered on day of birth and discharged when he went out for burial.  They were both recorded as Wesleyan.

I have also found that Emma Anderson was admitted to the workhouse on July 18th 1910.  Nearest relative 'Father 117 Church Way, North Shields'.  She was a Spinster and RC.  Records show that baby Lily was born on August 31st 1910 at 7 pm. She weighed 7 and a half pounds. It was Emma's first pregnancy.  Conducted by Miss Lord and attended by N. Williams, N. Comins and nursed by N. Williams and N. Whalley.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 08 January 20 15:29 GMT (UK)
'All Saints
Battiste, Elizabeth
Clothing No 184
Year born 1893
Religion: RC
Address of relatives:  This is crossed out 'Sis Mrs Rutherford 75 Matilda St'.  Above this crossed out entry is written 'None Known'
Occupation: S. None.
Place whence admitted: 195 Pilgrim Street.
Date Admitted: 18.10.16
Discharged: 17.11.16

In 1911, according to enumerators summary book, 195 Pilgrim Street was a 'licensed lodgings' run by a Mrs Donnelly. At the time of the census there were 40 men and 20 women there.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 09 January 20 20:52 GMT (UK)
Another great bit of information RTL... I have a few Elizabeth's on my tree for various branches but none really match.  Also no Rutherfords but as this is crossed out seems a likely error in the book.

I do have a great grand aunt Lizzie Battista born 1895 but I don't know of any of my branch that went into the workhouse... Lizzie and her three sisters all worked at Elswick Munitions during WW1 so don't think it would be her  :-\

Amazing to see the details of Lily Anderson's birth - so her parents obviously wouldn't support Emma, having Lily out of wedlock (she married John George in July 1911).  The maternity records are fascinating.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 30 May 20 12:09 BST (UK)
Hi all its been a while!  Hope everyone is keeping safe  :)

My research has been continuing in fits and spurts and I have been taking some of this time in lockdown to go through my old papers and make sure I have everything uploaded to Ancestry.

There are various bits on a few branches of the Giovanni and his children's stories I am working on... but this in particular I thought I should add here as I think it gives weight to the current thinking on what happened to Great Great Uncle Giovanni....

This was email correspondence sent to my mother from one of her half second cousins... the lady Isobel was the granddaughter of my Great Great Grandmother Mary-Jane from her second marriage, so not a Battista.  However her father was brother to Vincenzo and Mary-Jane's children and she grew up close to her 5 half sisters and their families. 

She mentions that some of her 'cousins' had always said that Vincenzo (my GGGrandfather) had deserted Mary-Jane and the children and returned to Italy.  Obviously we direct descendants know this isn't the case and that he died at 47 and is buried in Elswick.  On re reading this, reflecting on it and in light of everything we now know (Isobel was writing in 2005) I think this is very strong evidence to suggest that the anecdote actually relates to Giovanni, Vincenzo's brother.  Giovanni would of course of have been deserting his second wife Anastasia... but did of course leave 9 children mostly in the workhouse :(

 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 03 June 20 20:51 BST (UK)
Hi Sophie,

That is very interesting.  Yes, I think I would draw the same conclusion as you that Isobel was really referring to Giovanni and not Vincenzo.

I think this supports what I found in the Tynemouth workhouse minutes book .. the recording under an entry for James Battista stating that his Father had deserted.  This also fits with the Newcastle workhouse creed  register entry for Elizabeth which records that her Father was in Italy.

So hopefully, battista might be able to find a death entry in the Italian records one day.  I just hope there doesn't turn out to be a complication such as Giovanni using an alias too.

This is not the only mystery to have emerged on this thread ...

I have been thinking about the intriguing Vincent/Frank Spence alias.  Just a thought but I wonder if it might have been the real Frank (Lily's husband) who was killed in the Great War and if Vincent took over his identity with the collusion of Lily and Georgina.  Georgina seems to have claimed him as her deceased brother, having his name inserted in between the Frank Spence name.  Lily put no notices in the paper for either husband Frank or Vincent yet she did for brother John George.  I do wonder if the Frank who got married in Newcastle might have been Vincent using an alias to live out his life under a different identity as brother James did.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 04 June 20 14:52 BST (UK)
Interesting thought RTL... thought I'd have another dig on this and have just found Francis Spence (who married Ann Fenton) service record on Ancestry! :o  I have saved it on my tree if you want to take a look.  Just going through and trying to write up all the dates to see if anything fits..... marriage to Ann is on there but the first thing Ive noticed is his birth date is out by quite a few years.  Looks like he signed up oil 1896 aged 19 but on his marriage to Ann in 1910 he is noted as 28 yrs  ???  Definitely the same guy that we have this picture of....
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 04 June 20 20:25 BST (UK)
Okay this is turning out to be an interesting day....

Now Ancestry turns up Army Register of Soldiers Effects for Frank Spence who died 1 Aug 1917... with Georgina claiming for him.   So it looks as if this is definitely Vincent dying in action.

The service record for Francis Spence (who married Ann) shows him discharged in 1912, being older (despite lying on his marriage cert) so just need to find him on 1939 register to confirm what happened to him....

Also, I was advised about a project the Western Front Association are running a project on men who served under an alias!  It was started in March and already has thousands of men who had two names!  Seems it was very common.  Apparently they are planning to research these men and why they choose to sign up under an alias.

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/latest-news/april-2020/project-alias-and-project-capture-how-wfa-members-are-working-on-the-pension-records/
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 04 June 20 23:24 BST (UK)
Have managed to research Francis Spence and Ann Fenton.  He is the man pictured above, was originally married to Lily but then married Ann, fought and survived WW1 and he and Ann went on to have at least three children.  He died in 1955.

So, our Vincent Battista served as Frank V Spence in the Middlesex Regiment and died in Flanders 1 August 1917.  He is buried in a war cemetery there (see picture).

The reason he assumed an alias is still unknown but it now seems it was quite a common thing to do.. hopefully the project I mentioned above will shed some light on why.

The only anomaly's that remain are:
1) Francis Age - he was born in 1876 but on marrying Lily he noted his age as 25 not 29 and on marrying Ann he is 28 not 34!  Most likely this was because the women were much younger than him.  Lily was 21 and Ann 25.
2) The Tynemouth Memorial to Vincent Battista states his death as 24 Sep 1916.  It seems it is not unusual for someone to have used an alias but to have their actual names recorded on their gravestones/memorials. However I cannot find any reference or connection to this date.  I did find out that the details for the Tynemouth Memorial were complied by asking people to check a list and add their loved ones names to the list via the Shields Daily News.  I guess there would be lots of opportunity for human error and maybe Vincent's name got mixed up with someone else's details.  There is no Francis Spence on the memorial list, obviously because he didn't die.  I think perhaps Vincent's date of 1 Aug 1917 just got put against the wrong name  :'(.
3) Finally, I still cant think why Vincent's sisters didn't print any memorial to him in the paper as they had done for John George.  I suppose someone must have added his name to the Tynemouth list via the newspaper request, as he isn't printed in the paper.  I am hopeful it's just that the newspaper may not have been digitised.  May be one day I will find something.  Seems a shame as they were clearly happy to accept his pay and medals.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 05 June 20 00:15 BST (UK)
Okay this is turning out to be an interesting day....

Now Ancestry turns up Army Register of Soldiers Effects for Frank Spence who died 1 Aug 1917... with Georgina claiming for him.   



That information was provided in this thread by Jomot on 13th Feb 2019 (see page 35 of this thread , reply no 307)

Boo

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 05 June 20 09:01 BST (UK)
Okay this is turning out to be an interesting day....

Now Ancestry turns up Army Register of Soldiers Effects for Frank Spence who died 1 Aug 1917... with Georgina claiming for him.   

That information was provided in this thread by Jomot on 13th Feb 2019 (see page 35 of this thread , reply no 307)


It was this very document which mentioned an Elizabeth Moralee whose story I (hopefully) unravelled in this post last December!
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6856304#msg6856304

paragraph 4 of this posting refers to Frank Spence's military papers.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 05 June 20 13:16 BST (UK)
Apologies Jen and Boo - I did not mean to suggest that this was new information, just that the document, which I hadn't seen before, is now available on Ancestry.  The document was referenced as you point out but I had only just seen the actual paperwork - it came up as a hint on my tree. 

As I began my posts - I have been revisiting a lot of information.  There is so much and some had not really sunk in at the time, it was coming thick and fast.  I don't think I had really taken on board that there was so much evidence to confirm it was my Vincent who died on 1 Aug 1917.  Also, I've always had the Tynemouth Memorial date of 24 Sep 1916 in my mind for Vincent.

My new research was on the actual Frank Spence and what became of him.  I had never seen or heard of his service record before.

Hope you are all keeping safe and well x
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Friday 05 June 20 18:59 BST (UK)
the document, which I hadn't seen before, is now available on Ancestry.  The document was referenced as you point out but I had only just seen the actual paperwork - it came up as a hint on my tree. 

Strange - we were all looking at the original on Ancestry at the beginning of last year! In fact the database it's on was put on Ancestry in 2015.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 05 June 20 21:25 BST (UK)
Apologies again Jen - to be clear "the document, which I hadn't seen before, is now available on my Ancestry Tree".  It just came up as a hint.  I hadn't looked for the original at the beginning of last year, I had just taken the information from this thread as back up for what was on the service record, which of course I had seen. 

Also, I'm sure Ancestry holds back documents sometimes - I have had many experiences where I know the exact details, i.e. Page No and Volume for Birth or Death and it doesn't not come up on Ancestry but when I make the exact same search on FindMyPast, there it is!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 24 July 21 11:31 BST (UK)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/illustratedchronicleww1/50393594873/in/photolist-2jM7m52-2hwjYCH

I am just letting people know that another Battista photo has come out on the Illustrated Chronicle online.
I am sure Sophie or someone will know his relationship.

This thread has been quiet for a while but I am sure we will not be giving up and that things might be solved re Giovanni eventually ..  :)

Added: Actually, he is most likely (Antonio) the son of Vincenzo, bloodline ancestor I think of Sophie and the nephew of Giovanni.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 25 July 21 09:05 BST (UK)
Thanks so much RTL for finding/sharing this - absolutely correct, he is my Great Grandad Antonio (Tony).  The picture is just fantastic as it shows his injury he sustained at the front line.  We have a letter he wrote to his best friend giving an account of his tour and receiving this injury, written the same month as the photo was taken and printed in the Chronicle.  The letter is on Antonio's profile on the NEWMP website :)

http://www.newmp.org.uk/article.php?categoryid=99&articleid=1627&displayorder=139

I am definitely not giving up on Giovanni's story.. new info will come to light, such as this photo has, I am certain.  I have high hopes for the 1922 census if nothing else!


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 11 August 21 16:05 BST (UK)
Yes, Sophie who knows what the census may reveal when it comes out in 2022. :).

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/226442688/mary-christina-battista

I added this Battista memorial to Find A Grave a little while back and now I see that someone has kindly added a photo. :)
Thought I would mention this in case any Battista descendants might be interested to know this exists if it is not known already.
Incidentally, I think the wording that someone has chosen for the inscription is a lovely tribute.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 18 August 21 19:11 BST (UK)
I have just been thinking more on Giovanni.  I am still not convinced that he went back to Italy as hinted at in a workhouse entry recording of daughter Elizabeth.
At the start of this very long thread we were not aware that the Battistas would sometimes use alias names as we do now. 
Sorry, to rehash what we touched on at almost the start of this thread (around page 3/4) but I wonder if Giovanni may have used wife Anastasia's first husband's name to avoid detection after the children went into the workhouse? (I have not seen Anastasia or her Whelan children in the workhouse records).
Did he die in 1904 in Newcastle as Michael Whalen age 57 (Giovanni's age at that time).
Death notice showed that funeral was to be from his niece's home (Mrs Mallen) in Jarrow.
Could this person have been a niece of Anastasia through first marriage?
A Mary Ann Whalen married Henry Mallen in 1884 and they lived in Jarrow. 
Could this be why Anastasia's death notice records her as Whelan and the wife of late Michael and why there was crossings out in the burial register?  Perhaps Giovanni did not desert her?
It might be a long shot but then again it might be worth getting the death cert of this Michael perhaps to see where he died in Newcastle and who registered the death.
Sometimes a simple answer to things might be right under the nose and worth considering, perhaps?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Monday 23 August 21 18:33 BST (UK)
Unfortunately nothing definitive in the  burial register:

Jarrow Cemetery
Entry 25379
Burial 9th December 1904
Michael Whalen
Blank for occupation
Abode: Shakespeare Street, Parish Jarrow
Section M 255 Looks like 'RC'
Ceremony by James Grant
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 26 January 22 15:50 GMT (UK)
I have managed to get to the Archives today and have come across James Battista again in the workhouse records.
Another area is mentioned so I thought it might possibly be worth mentioning on this thread in case at a future date this might be a clue which could lead to Giovanni .. you never know.

Friday 28th Jan 1921
Admitted: James Battista
Age 22
Discharged Soldier
RC Religion
From Woolwich Workhouse
Nearest relative: Sister, Mrs Spence 3 Norfolk Street, North Shields

Discharged same day at 6.15 pm 'Refused to stay' recorded

Saturday 29th January 1921
Admitted: James Battista at 4 pm
Ex Soldier RC Religion
Nearest relative: Sister, L. Guthrey, 3 Norfolk Street

These two admittance entries are on same page with discrepancy with his sister's name.

I checked up to the cut off point of the end of January 1922 and it appears there was no sign of James having come out again up to that point.

I wonder if perhaps Sophie might have any idea what may have led him to Woolwich and the workhouse there?

(Incidentally, I think this post will make me a marquessate :D.. just marking the day😉)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Wednesday 26 January 22 17:49 GMT (UK)
Great find!

Here he is in the creed registers at Plumstead workhouse - James Battista 'Seaman' admitted 24 Dec 1920.  Removed to Newcastle 27 Jan 1921.  Sister Lily Guthrie, 3 Norfolk Street, North Shields.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1B-W3FV-Z?i=143&cat=1411240
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 26 January 22 18:01 GMT (UK)
RTL, you’ll set us all off again…..
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Wednesday 26 January 22 18:10 GMT (UK)
RTL, you’ll set us all off again…..

hmmm, quite.

A free Search of the 1921 census shows a James Battista, born 1899 , North Shields recorded in Tynemouth.

As there is no indication of others on the same page when I hover over the icons, (so possibly an institution return) I'd hazard a guess that he's still in the workhouse in July 1921 and this is his record.

Boo
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 26 January 22 18:54 GMT (UK)
Quote
Friday 28th Jan 1921
Admitted: James Battista
Age 22
Discharged Soldier
RC Religion
From Woolwich Workhouse
Nearest relative: Sister, Mrs Spence 3 Norfolk Street, North Shields

Discharged same day at 6.15 pm 'Refused to stay' recorded

Saturday 29th January 1921
Admitted: James Battista at 4 pm
Ex Soldier RC Religion
Nearest relative: Sister, L. Guthrey, 3 Norfolk Street

These two admittance entries are on same page with discrepancy with his sister's name.

The discrepancy occurs because sister Lily (Orsolina) was married first to Francis Spence and then to Robert Guthrie (residence on marriage cert 3 Norfolk Street).
Perhaps James forgot/didn't know about the second marriage.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Wednesday 26 January 22 19:13 GMT (UK)
and a Lily Guthrie, born 1883, North Shields is listed  in the same house as a Robert Guthrie , born 1891 North Shields,  they are  in Tynemouth Parish/Reg District in 1921, plus there was one more person on the same return, called Ethel.

If I look for Ethel then she appears to be Ethel Hunter, born 1893 , Norfolk and her record shows she is in the same house as a Lily and a Robert

All done purely by searching, these are just the index entries that can be found without purchasing either the transcript or the image - either of those would be needed to fully confirm, but its highly likely.

Boo




Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 27 January 22 08:46 GMT (UK)
And that's  a great find Jomot! 

Yes, James may not have been up to speed on the current husband of Lily or just confused.

Perhaps, I am just tired and missing something on way home from nightshift but who is Ethel Hunter?  Is she significant in some way?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 27 January 22 08:50 GMT (UK)
Ethel Hunter is someone who happens to be living in the same house as Robert and Lily/Orsolina Guthrie at the time of the 1921 census (as revealed by Boo doing some firkling with the free search).


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 27 January 22 08:57 GMT (UK)
Oh so she might just be a lodger and no one of particular significance, but then again you never know, with all the twists and turns in this story.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Thursday 27 January 22 08:59 GMT (UK)
Oh so she might just be a lodger and no one of particular significance, but then again you never know, with all the twists and turns in this story.

Quite  :-X
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Tickettyboo on Thursday 27 January 22 09:21 GMT (UK)
I was trying to show that, despite what many people seem to think, the 1921 census though PPV (which was expected) is not a 'rip off' and with a bit of imaginative firkling you can be reasonably sure that any record you decide to buy will be the one you were looking for.

 Ethel could be a lodger/visitor/ a married relation of either Lily or Robert -  I don't know - as you say all things are possible with this family :-)
 She could have been living there permanently or just there overnight but she is with them in 1921.  Though I don't know which number, they 'are' in Norfolk St., and they were the only 3 people recorded in the house that night.

I've bought a few images and firkled extensively each time prior to buying - which was worthwhile as each one has been the one I wanted.

Boo

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 27 January 22 10:14 GMT (UK)
Yes, I agree it is not a rip off - a lot of hard work went into getting this out by all accounts.

By the way, when I checked it seems that James was indeed still in the workhouse in July 1921.  I went through to end of January 1922 and could find no discharge up to that 100 closure point.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 27 January 22 13:44 GMT (UK)
Searching the 1921 for James with no other information but his name and 'inmate' brings up the North Shields record already mentioned, so it does seem very likely he was still in the workhouse as suggested.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: tillypeg on Thursday 27 January 22 15:17 GMT (UK)

(Incidentally, I think this post will make me a marquessate :D.. just marking the day😉)

Congratulations RTL, you certainly deserve it, for your help with this thread alone. ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 29 January 22 21:16 GMT (UK)
Thanks, Tillypeg.  Hopefully, this thread will get solved one of these days. :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 03 February 22 14:54 GMT (UK)
Hi all

So pleased to catch up with everyone again and my continuing family saga  ;D

Thank you so much to Boo, JenB and Jomot for looking into things again - I agree completely re the 1921 census, it is quite easy to confirm you have the right record if you have most of the info that should be on it.  I have found using the advanced name search and adding an address here is particularly useful.  I have found quite a few transcription errors that took a bit of fathoming out, for example my GGrandfather Antonio was transcribed as Andrew  ???  I have spent a small fortune to date though as I have to know what the documents say!  You are all correct and James is in Tynemouth Union in 1921, along with two of his women and two of his children, both called John!

I have recently been in contact with one of James (or George Matthews) and Lily Macauley/Matthews grandchildren.  Her mother is one of their four children and she confirmed that all four of the children were taken into care after James left Lily  :'( She has told me she has a photograph and I am very hopeful I will get to see it.  I have directed her to this thread and my Ancestry tree so she can discover all about the family.

I also came across a John Battista in a lodging house on Clive Street, North Shields in 1921 ran by the Rando's, family friends of the Battista's.  The entire Battista family was lodging with the Rando's in Bird Street, Tynemouth on the 1891 in fact, plus the Rando's are godparents to Pasqualino's first born Loreto.  His age is completely odd though for either Giovanni or Pasqualino and he is supposedly Portuguese (same as the man noted below him lol, see picture).  I don't however think this is Giovanni, although it isn't impossible, I think this is Pasqualino as I haven't been able to find him anywhere as yet.  He would have been in the Navy so I need to check his service record to see which ship he was on and see if he's there to rule him out.  I am wondering though if the military were recorded on the census as in 1911 given 1921 was so close to the end of the war. 

Finally a huge thank you (and congrats on marquessate status!) to RTL!  As always above and beyond, couldn't have gotten half as far through this mystery without you   :)

copyright image removed
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 03 February 22 16:48 GMT (UK)
I have just been thinking more on Giovanni.  I am still not convinced that he went back to Italy as hinted at in a workhouse entry recording of daughter Elizabeth.
At the start of this very long thread we were not aware that the Battistas would sometimes use alias names as we do now. 
Sorry, to rehash what we touched on at almost the start of this thread (around page 3/4) but I wonder if Giovanni may have used wife Anastasia's first husband's name to avoid detection after the children went into the workhouse? (I have not seen Anastasia or her Whelan children in the workhouse records).
Did he die in 1904 in Newcastle as Michael Whalen age 57 (Giovanni's age at that time).
Death notice showed that funeral was to be from his niece's home (Mrs Mallen) in Jarrow.
Could this person have been a niece of Anastasia through first marriage?
A Mary Ann Whalen married Henry Mallen in 1884 and they lived in Jarrow. 
Could this be why Anastasia's death notice records her as Whelan and the wife of late Michael and why there was crossings out in the burial register?  Perhaps Giovanni did not desert her?
It might be a long shot but then again it might be worth getting the death cert of this Michael perhaps to see where he died in Newcastle and who registered the death.
Sometimes a simple answer to things might be right under the nose and worth considering, perhaps?

Just checking back over my research on the Whalens as I don't think I responded to this last year, but did in fact order the death cert... it is still a possible lead on Giovanni...

Micheal Whalen Sr b.1859 d.1899 (aged 40) in Morpeth Asylum, first husband of Anastasia
Micheal Whalen Jr b.1895 d? but think he married ? Rowley in 1915

Micheal Whalen noted above by RTL b.1847 d.1904 death cert gives no additional info apart from that he died in Newcastle Workhouse, might be more info on who he was in the workhouse register?  I am looking into the Mallen connection but not a name I've come across ???

Going to search the Jarrow address and name on the 1921 now...
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Thursday 03 February 22 17:45 GMT (UK)
I have managed to get to the Archives today and have come across James Battista again in the workhouse records.
Another area is mentioned so I thought it might possibly be worth mentioning on this thread in case at a future date this might be a clue which could lead to Giovanni .. you never know.

Friday 28th Jan 1921
Admitted: James Battista
Age 22
Discharged Soldier
RC Religion
From Woolwich Workhouse
Nearest relative: Sister, Mrs Spence 3 Norfolk Street, North Shields

Discharged same day at 6.15 pm 'Refused to stay' recorded

Saturday 29th January 1921
Admitted: James Battista at 4 pm
Ex Soldier RC Religion
Nearest relative: Sister, L. Guthrey, 3 Norfolk Street

These two admittance entries are on same page with discrepancy with his sister's name.

I checked up to the cut off point of the end of January 1922 and it appears there was no sign of James having come out again up to that point.

I wonder if perhaps Sophie might have any idea what may have led him to Woolwich and the workhouse there?


Regarding the Woolwich workhouse... no specific link springs to mind however I know he was discharged from the Northumberland Fusiliers in Dec 1920 and there is a Royal Artillery Barracks streets away from the workhouse.  Looking into whether his regiment were there at all for any reason at this time.  Other than that his eldest sister Georgina and family lived in Wandsworth (same side of the river) and his eldest brother Pasqualino was based at Chatham in Kent, not that far away.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 03 February 22 19:12 GMT (UK)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4080310431

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/236346667/john-t-moralee

Hi Sophie,

Thanks for updating with all this updated info.  I am sure all our heads are spinning trying to guess what they were up to ..  ;D
Just throwing another thought into the mix.
It has been suggested much earlier in the thread  that Elizabeth may have married a John T. Moralee under the surname alias of either Patterson or Jennings.
There were two John T. Moralees that married in Newcastle around the same time in 1917.
A John T. Moralee dies age 75 and is buried at Elswick in 1925.  Home address was Carliol Street.  I think I recall that the Battistas were linked with this street address in Newcastle.
The age isn't exactly right for Giovanni but it is close.  There was no death notice.
Nothing definite but I am just throwing this one on the table too in case this was Giovanni using an alias.  It could be nothing, perhaps this John might be a Father of John who married Elizabeth or it might be that they were all scheming together and this could be Giovanni using an alias.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 04 February 22 21:18 GMT (UK)
Been doing a bit more research today  :)

Going to look into your idea about John Moralee RTL, as well as all other names Giovanni was known to have used over the next few weeks.... first though a bit on the Michael Whalen idea....

Searched Shakespeare Street Jarrow (address on Michael Whalen d.1904 burial register) on the 1921 and found no Battista's or Whalen's but did find Henry and Mary Ann Mallen (plus son Oswald).  Mary Ann was noted as Michael Whalen's niece on death notice at same address.  So family was still there 17 years later.  Also, found a Slavin family in the same street.  The Slavin name is connected to the Whelan's/Battista's as follows.... Giovanni's second wife Anastasia's daughter Anastasia Jr married a John Slavin.  Neither Anastasia nor John are noted in the Slavin family record so not sure what if any connection this family might have yet, but it's quite a coincidence  :-\
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 04 February 22 21:48 GMT (UK)
Then a bit more about James... putting all my latest documents onto my tree and going through things in chronological order confirms that...

James was discharged from NF on 23 Dec 1920 due to a disability on his left hand.  I have another record which shows James (Battister) was investigated for a potential 'blightly wound' (self-inflicted) to his left hand.  It looks as if he was discharged as a result of this and it was found to be self inflicted as his medals were forfeited :(

He then entered Woolwich (Plumstead) workhouse 2 days later on Christmas Day.  I find things quite sad as previously mentioned his eldest sister Georgina lived in Wandsworth.  He did see action in France and was obviously so affected he injured himself to get home and his sister couldn't put him up for Christmas :((. I think he must have been in a terrible state, especially when you consider he had not long lost two of his brothers in the conflict (Nov 1916 / Mar 1917) :(((

On Dec 26th his son John George by Dorothy Playford was born in Tynemouth Union.

He was sent back to Newcastle as RTL discovered, on Jan 28th but discharged himself the same day.   He was noted as needing extra sustenance so again I think he must have been in a bad way.  He did however return the following day on Jan 29th and wasn't discharged again until a year later.  A few months later the 1921 census shows him as an inmate, along side Dorothy & John as well as Eva Clarkson and her son John, who was born third quarter of 1919.  I don't think this is James son after all as the newspaper report confirming he was Ena's child's father and that he was punished for not supporting the child was from 1923.  The report mentions that Ena had previously had two illegitimate children.  James William Clarkson (James is son) was born in Oct 1923.

I have him being transfered from the Wellesy Training Ship to a RN ship in 1915 aged 16 so I think he might have done some naval service too.  I also have him being court marshalled in Apr 1920 for Desertion & Abscence... obviously he paid a visit to Dorothy while away!

Also of note is that he married Dorothy in Apr 1922 but is in a common lodging house by July 1922. He must have been back in Tynemouth Union late 1922.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Friday 04 February 22 21:53 GMT (UK)
Oh so she might just be a lodger and no one of particular significance, but then again you never know, with all the twists and turns in this story.

Quite  :-X

I have Lily's record and Ethel is noted as a visitor aged 28, married and born in Yarmouth, Norfolk.  She is a domestic servant, out of work.  It will be interesting to see if she is linked in anyway in time or just a friend.

On a side note, I have quite a few records where a person has recorded an employers business with address but also noted 'out of work'.  Perhaps they were just noting their last employment  ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Saturday 05 February 22 11:49 GMT (UK)
A John T. Moralee dies age 75 and is buried at Elswick in 1925.  Home address was Carliol Street.  I think I recall that the Battistas were linked with this street address in Newcastle.
The age isn't exactly right for Giovanni but it is close.  There was no death notice.
Nothing definite but I am just throwing this one on the table too in case this was Giovanni using an alias.  It could be nothing, perhaps this John might be a Father of John who married Elizabeth or it might be that they were all scheming together and this could be Giovanni using an alias.

I'm confident that the John T Moralee who died in 1925 aged 75 was indeed the father of the John Thomas Moralee who married Elizabeth Battista.

He was at 30 Carliol Street (probably a boarding house) in the 1925 electoral register, but previous to that appears to have been with John Thomas (junior) and Elizabeth at 2, Robin Hood Yard off Pilgrim Street in Newcastle.

A bit of fiddling with the address search on the 1921 census reveals they were also all there then, John Thomas junior aged 27 born Jarrow, Elizabeth aged 32 born North Shields (both indexed as Moralis).
John Thomas senior (indexed as Moraler) aged 72 born Whalton, Northumberland. There are a few other people indexed as Moraler also there, but you'd have to get the actual entry to sort out the relationships.

In 1911 John Thomas senior, born in Whalton, and John Thomas junior born in Jarrow are found at exactly the same address, 2 Robin Hood Yard.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMZ-4QR

Whalton was in Castle Ward registration district, and this looks like his birth, 4th q. 1850, Castle Ward 25, 264, John Moralee mmn Dixon. He is living at Whalton with his parents in the 1851 census.

I rest my case  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Saturday 05 February 22 12:56 GMT (UK)
Thanks Jen, so it looks like this is another who can be ruled out as an alias.  Very helpful too in tracing Elizabeth's movements.
Oh well, sometimes a step back can be a step forward in a way .. at least in the way of not going down further in a wrong direction.  The search goes on .. ;)

.. Just to add a bit more from my recent time at the archives for anyone who might have an interest in following the Battista story..

James and Dorothy's son John George Playford (now deceased) has an entry for what looks like his birth  on Sunday 26 Dec 1920 at 9.55 a.m. 'Mother in Hospital (Dorothy)' recorded.
Dorothy had entered on Sat Nov 6th 1920 at 11 am age 22. Address 6 Union Stairs.

Dorothy's mother Dorothy goes in and out in entries but dies on 16 June 1921 at 12.50 pm as recorded on a 'discharge' entry.   Also recorded is that she had been a field worker and had been admitted on 19th Oct 1920

Re Ena Margaret Clarkson she was admitted on Feb 7th 1919 seemingly on her own at that point.  Nearest relative Wilfred Clarkson at (?) 3rd Street, Peterhead

Up to the cut off point at end of January 1922 James, Dorothy and Ena all appear to be still in the workhouse.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Saturday 05 February 22 18:33 GMT (UK)
Brilliant JenB, totally agree. Good to be narrowing things down.  I had looked through all those documents but was distracted trying to find something that proved that Elizabeth Moralee was in fact Elizabeth Battista... I've still nothing conclusive.

Carliol Street, Carliol Square and Trafalgar Street (all in close proximity) was well known as an area of Newcastle Italian immigrants populated.  There were many boarding houses run by 'Padrones':-
1.an employer, especially one who exploits immigrant workers.
2.(in Italy) the proprietor of a hotel.

These addresses do indeed pop up often on my ancestors early UK documents.  There is much about it in the book "Out of Italy" which I think is referenced earlier on this thread.  The book features a fab photo of my 2xGt Grandfather Vincenzo, Giovanni's brother.

RTL found this super photo... actual shows a boarding house, note the BEDS sign in the window :)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4080310431
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 06 February 22 08:28 GMT (UK)
This is a very long post now, but if you look back to Jen's post 525 page 59 I can't help believing that this is really Elizabeth Battista.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6856304#msg6856304

It does make you wonder, as Jen mentioned, if Elizabeth married under alias of Patterson or Jennings in 1917.
It seems too much coincidence that her son's birth date in 1939 matches that of Elizabeth Lawson's son in the Fishpool workhouse.

As you can see it seems that when Elizabeth has been transferred from Bolton to Tynemouth workhouse she seems to drop the Lawson alias (which happens to be her Mother's maiden name) and both are named Battista again.  Perhaps she was familiar to the staff at Tynemouth and she might not have been able to carry on with the alias there?  She seems to have given her Father's name as alias 'William' and he is a tailor (which would fit for Giovanni.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6509263#msg6509263

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Sunday 06 February 22 09:03 GMT (UK)
Brilliant JenB, totally agree. Good to be narrowing things down.  I had looked through all those documents but was distracted trying to find something that proved that Elizabeth Moralee was in fact Elizabeth Battista... I've still nothing conclusive.

I thought you had agreed that this was her in my long posting here (as RTL has also said)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6856304#msg6856304
and your reply # 526

I agree that this has to be our Elizabeth!  Although her birth date on the 1939 Register is out by 3 years and the day is 8 days after her baptism ( 17th vs. 25th), the month of October is the same. And with her son John - the name and birth date - too many coincidences for it not to be her.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 07 February 22 18:56 GMT (UK)
Thanks Jen - I do hope it is my Elizabeth and as said in that old post there are many coincidences (as well as discrepancies as I also pointed out) but without a firm marriage there is still nothing conclusive.  I am not convinced about the use of Jennings or Patterson as alias's as those names do not appear anyway else in the Battista story.  All the other alias's I have come across for Giovanni, Vincent & James as well as Pasqualino and his first wife Marieta are variations of their own names or family names.  I suppose the only way to find out is to look at the marriage certificates for both Elizabeth Patterson and Elizabeth Jennings.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 07 February 22 19:01 GMT (UK)
This is a very long post now, but if you look back to Jen's post 525 page 59 I can't help believing that this is really Elizabeth Battista.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6856304#msg6856304

It does make you wonder, as Jen mentioned, if Elizabeth married under alias of Patterson or Jennings in 1917.
It seems too much coincidence that her son's birth date in 1939 matches that of Elizabeth Lawson's son in the Fishpool workhouse.

As you can see it seems that when Elizabeth has been transferred from Bolton to Tynemouth workhouse she seems to drop the Lawson alias (which happens to be her Mother's maiden name) and both are named Battista again.  Perhaps she was familiar to the staff at Tynemouth and she might not have been able to carry on with the alias there?  She seems to have given her Father's name as alias 'William' and he is a tailor (which would fit for Giovanni.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6509263#msg6509263

I agree it is a coincidence that the sons birth date in 1939 matches Elizabeth Lawson's son but it is still a coincidence in amongst many other discrepancies.

Also that is a good example of the type of alias's she was using.. Lawson being her mothers maiden name (her first name being Elizabeth too) and Giovanni using William which was one of his sons and also one of his grandfathers (Guillermo).  I don't know why she would just pluck a random name out of the air... that being said maybe it will come to light that it was perhaps one of Moralee's family names  ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Monday 07 February 22 19:27 GMT (UK)
Fair enough…..I’m happy with my theory.

If neither of the marriages are her then I’d suggest that she lived with John T. and took his surname.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 07 February 22 22:04 GMT (UK)
Found another John Moralee & Elizabeth marriage.. surname Hewitt July 1916 Tynemouth.  Found them on 1939 Census.... with daughter Catherine and a birth date of Jan 1918.  Found her birth record incorrectly transcribed which shows mothers maiden name of Hewitt.  Looking at the dates on the 1921 census (as well as address of 100 West Percy Street) and the 1939 for Elizabeth's birth, I think that this discounts them as our Elizabeth and also the child Catherine.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Monday 07 February 22 22:26 GMT (UK)
Re the Elizabeth & John at Robin Hood Yard... found two sets on the 1921 census, the elder and the younger living at the same address.  The birth year for the younger Elizabeth fits.  There is no child however.  Elizabeth's son was born in Fishpool 1912 so would have been 9 yrs old in 1921.  He is on the 1939 register though (with birth date matching Elizabeths son) and both Elizabeth and Johns birth months and years there match the 1921 census dates so I think they are one and the same.

However, I also have electoral rolls for all of the above at the same address from 1918 through to 1930.  Slight discrepancy in that on brother Vincents service record in 1919 E.Moralee notes her address as City Road, Newcastle.  But this Elizabeth was at Robin Hood Yard in 1918 and beyond.

There is a Richard Moralee living at City Road on the 1921.....

Will try and find the third John & Elizabeth Moralee then see if I can't work out which was Patterson and which was Jennings.  Hopefully the certificates will have something on them  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 08 February 22 17:19 GMT (UK)
Something very promising on concluding Elizabeth's marriage to Moralee... started looking into the Patterson alias and I found an Isabella P Moralee who married a Robert Patterson in Q1 1915 in Tynemouth.

I found Isabella on the 1891 and 1901 census b.1895 with wait for it, a brother John... b. 1893 which matches with our John T Moralee's dob on the 1921 and 1939  :)

Isabella would have been a similar age to Elizabeth and maybe they were friends as well as sister in laws  :)

The only major birth date anomaly for John is the 1939 where its down as Dec 1884.  Month matches but year is obviously 9 years out.  I have cross referenced all dates from 1901,1911,1921 & 1939 and any other documents I have so this is an oddball.  Only thing I can think is she completed it and couldn't remember the year so just put him as one year older than her!

In 1901 John & sister Isabella are living with their mother Catherine and step family, the Southwicks.  I looked for a Catherine marrying a Moralee and found Catherine Limb married a Richard Moralee b.1855 in Apr 1892 All Saints.

So this Richard sort of matches the Richard Moralee I have living on the City Road in 1918 onward! (birth year is out by 6 years). He would therefore be Elizabeth's father in law, matching with the address she gave on brother Vincent's service record.

Catherine married Richard in 1892, John was born 1893 & Isabella 1895 (then two other children).. she must have left Richard as there is a marriage for a Catherine Moralee to James Southwick in Oct 1899 in Tynemouth and she is Catherine Southwick on the 1901 census with children Moralee.

Richard goes on to marry Isabella Sibbitt in Apr 1900, whom he is living with on the City Road in 1911.  In fact they are living the Keelman's Hospital and are still resident on the 1939 register where he is noted as a blind pensioner. 

The only other thing is who are John Thomas Moralee Sr and wife Elizabeth at Robins Hood Yard?? Perhaps an uncle and aunt???

So in conclusion, I have ordered the Moralee/Patterson certificate!! Fingers crossed there's a Battista reference on there so I can sleep easy  ;)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 08 February 22 17:48 GMT (UK)
Quote
The only other thing is who are John Thomas Moralee Sr and wife Elizabeth at Robins Hood Yard??

I think we are following two different families now.

John T Moralee senior at Robins Hood Yard in 1922, born Whalton Northumberland c.1850. Also living there is another John T Moralee, born Jarrow with an Elizabeth born North Shields (who I believe may well be Elizabeth Battista)

The same John T. senior, born Whalton, can also be found at Robin Hoods Yard in 1911 with son John T born Jarrow.

So my reading is that John T Moralee senior is the father of John T junior who is with Elizabeth (possibly Battista) in 1921 (as I said in my earlier posting).



Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 08 February 22 20:54 GMT (UK)
Quote
In 1901 John & sister Isabella are living with their mother Catherine and step family, the Southwicks

They are also living with James Southwick in North Shields in 1911. John is born North Shields.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMN-7HP

So this John cannot be the same one as in Robin Hood Yard 1911 and 1921 (who was born in Jarrow).

It will be interesting to hear what the marriage certificate reveals.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 08 February 22 23:09 GMT (UK)
Hmmmmmm good point Jen...

Another I've just thought of is that Elizabeth Patterson and John Moralee didn't marry until 1917 so its more likely that the John Moralee born North Shields to mother Catherine is the right one as he is alone in 1911...

Elizabeth was likely in the workhouse, very possibly out of Newcastle.  She was taken out of Tynemouth Union in 1904 by W.Brabant (possible Giovanni alias) and then we don't know what became of her until she was transferred from Fishpool Workhouse Bolton in Oct 1912 with baby son John as Elizabeth Battista.

So maybe the Robins Hood Yard Moralees are a red herring??

Interestingly on the 1911 entry for Robins Hood Yard there is a John Thomas Moralee son but the father write 'none' the column for children born alive - very curious!!!
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 08 February 22 23:12 GMT (UK)
Also mother on that census return is Mary Jane but Elizabeth everywhere else  ???
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 09 February 22 09:11 GMT (UK)
Interestingly on the 1911 entry for Robins Hood Yard there is a John Thomas Moralee son but the father write 'none' the column for children born alive - very curious!!!

Also mother on that census return is Mary Jane but Elizabeth everywhere else  ???

Actually it doesn't say she's the mother. It says she's John T senior's wife.

It doesn't say that John T senior has no children. If you read the column heading it says 'number of children born alive to the present marriage' (and should have been written against the woman's name anyway!).

John T junior was born to a previous marriage. John T senior had other children from other marriages.

So maybe the Robins Hood Yard Moralees are a red herring??

Having spent a lot of time on this I don't think they are a red herring.

so its more likely that the John Moralee born North Shields to mother Catherine is the right one as he is alone in 1911...

No, I don't agree. If you follow this John forward you'll find that almost certainly he married Elizabeth Hewitt in Tynemouth RD 1916, and they are still living in Tynemouth RD in 1921, together with their daughter Catherine, born there in 1918. The three of them are still together in Morpeth in 1939. John's occupation in 1939 is 'Assistant Foreman Engineering' - he is an apprentice engineer in 1911.

I'm going to try to leave this now, but will be interested to see what the marriage certificate brings.

Please re-read
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6856304#msg6856304
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg7273060#msg7273060



Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 09 February 22 12:04 GMT (UK)
Jen I do not wish to take up anyones valuable time or energy.  I certainly have never asked for you or anyone else on this thread to contribute to my family research, I thought any interest and time was given willingly and I have always tried to be appreciative for what has been given.

I am not overlooking or disagreeing with any previous research, I am going through everything again, reviewing & reflecting, looking for things maybe not picked up on before as there is nothing definitive and that is what I'd like to find.  Triggered by the 1921 census providing a little bit more information.

And with all these John & Elizabeth Moralee's it is certainly confusing, for me at least  :-\

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 09 February 22 12:48 GMT (UK)
I think interest and time is willingly given.  :)
Since I have been on RootsChat, I must say that this is the thread that I have found the most fascinating but also the most puzzling to solve.
I agree that you have been appreciative of help given, and I think it is marvellous too how you are trying your best to get all this unravelled. :)
I'll admit that things are often bamboozling  for me too working on this complicated story.  You are certainly not alone in that!
I am glad we have had people like Jen, someone I consider at the top of the field, working onboard with this too. :)
Hopefully, we will get there in the end and it is appreciated that you have sent off for the cert.  Like Jen, I am very interested in hearing about what this may record about the bride's Father and any witnesses.  It would be great if there was something on there to support that this is Elizabeth Battista and give a clue in reference to Giovanni.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 09 February 22 20:16 GMT (UK)
Nov. 5th 1909
Batista William
age 12
Was discharged at 7 a.m.
He had been admitted from Tynemouth
Religion: RC
Remarks: To Industrial Ship "Southampton" at Hull.

Possibility of surviving records here...

http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/TSSouthampton/

Annie
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 30 June 22 14:33 BST (UK)
Still not much further on with finding Giovanni.  However, for Battista descendants here is an article from the Shields Daily News 8 July 1937 re James Battista (Dorothy giving evidence). 
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Thursday 30 June 22 19:39 BST (UK)
This is curious - John George Playford born 26 Dec 1920 in the workhouse but in article Dorothy says she first met James in 1921 and they married in 1922.
Might John George not be James son?  Or if he is, why does Dorothy say she first met James in 1921? Or might she have been mixed up about year she met James?
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 13 November 22 08:48 GMT (UK)
I have recently had some time to further my research and I have a few updates for the thread...

Firstly re James... I followed up the newspaper cutting RTL found (Post 30 June) with his descendants.  The evidence is indeed circumstantial, i.e. no fathers name on John George Playford's birth certificate and just knowledge of the marriage between James & Dorothy rather than of James having been around.  Time may reveal if he is indeed a Battista, if the family decide to do a DNA test but otherwise it will remain a mystery.  My personal feeling having researched James life and having seen photos of John George is that he is  :)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 13 November 22 09:25 GMT (UK)
Secondly, I found the Elizabeth/John Moralee marriage in the Non Conformist church register on Family Search.  Looks like it took place in St Dominics, the same church as Elizabeth Moralee's funeral was held.

She is noted as Elizabeth Battista to John Thomas Moralee on 20 October 1917, a few months after the Elizabeth Patterson marriage in July 1917 at Newcastle Registry Office.  I also received the certificate and it does note her father as 'John Patterson, Tailor' which was indeed an occupation Giovanni often noted.  They are both noted as living at 98 Pilgrim Street, Newcastle which was possibly a false address, as at that time was the Liberal Club (Alderman Fenwick's House) but could also have been a lodging house.  I am hoping to find the actual St Dominic's register to see if there were any witnesses.

I am also still trying to link the Patterson name as I believe there has to be a reason she used this name - I have been researching her mothers family, of which there was only one full sibling an aunt called Jane Ann Lawson.  I did find a Jane Ann Lawson marrying a John Henry Patterson but having ordered that certificate there is nothing conclusive on it  :-\. Still a few things to investigate though as one of the witnesses was Elizabeth Lawson.  I am also still researching the Moralees and the Patterson connection there.

On the subject of Elizabeth Lawson - I have also paid for an extensive search of the Bolton Fishpool Union Admissions/Discharges to follow up on why she ended up there.

I really think that Elizabeth will be the key to finding Giovanni as of all his children she is the only one 'unaccounted for' between 1904 and 1911 which is also the period between the last known reference to him (assuming he is W.Brabant who removed Elizabeth from Tynemouth Union in 1904) and the first of many references to him being deceased (daughter Lily's marriage certificate in 1918).

Unfortunately I am not further forward with any reason for her being in Bolton (apart from a possible connection to a Russi family living there from the same area of Italy which I am looking into) but it is clear whatever the reason she went there, she was struggling to survive  :'(

The following entries for Elizabeth Lawson alias and baby son Jack were found:-

"Admissions
31st August 1912
Lawson Elizabeth servant, Church of England, born 1888 aged 24 years she was admitted as being sick and Destitute of the Bolton Parish, it stated that she remained in the workhouse until the                30th of September 1912 in fact it was the 9th of October when she and Jack left."  This is when they were transferred back to Tynemouth.  The discharge is shown at Fishpool on the same day the Admission is shown at Tynemouth as Elizabeth Battista.

"Discharges:
27th June 1912
Lawson Elizabeth came out on her own request
Lawson Jack came out on mother's request"

"Sunday 31st March 1912
Lawson Jack born in the house mother Elizabeth illegitimate of Great Bolton" (This was in the admissions despite Jack being born in the Workhouse as well as the birth being the birth register)

"Admissions
Friday 12th January 1912
Lawson Elizabeth servant born 1887 24 years sick, pregnant and destitute".

The search did not go back any further than 1st January 1912, so there is more to be found I suspect.  Frustratingly the original entry in January 1912 did not contain any reference to the North East or next of kin.  However, interestingly she must have had somewhere to go as she left with baby Jack for 2 months  ???  I will try and get another search done to go further back at some point, or maybe even head there myself one day as I actually have other branches of my family tree from this area and was born in Lancs.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 13 November 22 09:41 GMT (UK)
Finally a possible lead on Giovanni!

I came across some newspaper articles as attached.

Firstly John 'Bantista' betting in Market Place in North Shields in 1904... many of the children were born at the Rando's lodging house at 83 Clive Street and they all gravitated back to this area many times in their lives, so I think there is a strong possibility this is him.  Giovanni's possible last known address was Turpins Yard (just off Market Place I believe) in July 1902.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 13 November 22 09:47 GMT (UK)
And another! A John Battista, Ice Cream Seller in Edinburgh 1905......

Edinburgh was very similar to Newcastle, with an established Italian immigrant population.  I joined Scotlands People and searched their records, finding a few Battista's but none that really matched in any obvious way.  They were all quite isolated records, i.e. I couldn't trace any of them.  The John Battista I did find on the 1911 census as a visitor to Dominic & Maria Angeluca, at a different address to the article and is noted as only 24!  ???  A massive stretch but I am still not discounting it at this point.  I am still looking into Scotlands Battista's in the hope of finding a link.  I have heard of other stories of Italian families travelling between Newcastle and Edinburgh, or generally travelling to find work.

I followed up the charge reported in the article with the archives as they still hold the Justice of the Peace reports but it did not contain any further information sadly.

I will post this on the Edinburgh board and maybe someone will have some suggestions on where else I could look..., the Edinburgh Workhouse records would be a good option I think.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: JenB on Sunday 13 November 22 16:30 GMT (UK)
Quote
the last known reference to him (assuming he is W.Brabant who removed Elizabeth from Tynemouth Union in 1904

I'd suggest that this was in fact the Mr Brabant who was appointed by the Tynemouth Board of Guardians in 1902 to be 'boys warden' at the workhouse (Shields Daily News 7th March 1902) Could his initial have been misread? The 1911 census reveals his christian names to have been Charles Lawrence. The surname plus the fact that he worked at Tynemouth Workhouse is too much of a coincidence otherwise.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 13 November 22 19:02 GMT (UK)
That's marvellous that you have got all this research done Sophie.
This could be possible that Giovanni went to Scotland.
Don't give up hope, I still think that all might become clear one day.  Like you, I wonder if Elizabeth might lead this thread to the answer, eventually.
I would be interested to know who the witnesses would have been at her St Dominic RC wedding when she is using her real name.
Giovanni would have been quite old by then if he was still alive, but perhaps if he was, he might have been a witness.
I would like to go back to the archives and check this for you but it is still quite a faff at the moment what with the booking system and my shifts and the catalogue being down. 
Hopefully, when things improve I will try and go again.

Jen, I have checked that record more than once and there was no ambiguity with the letter.  It was definitely a W.
Perhaps though it could be that the person who wrote the entry mistakenly wrote a W. instead of a C or perhaps it was really a W. Brabant as written, who took Elizabeth out? 

Just adding to James' story there was an entry in the Workhouse Minutes relating to the article which appeared in the newspaper about him being punished.  This entry is at the North Shields local studies:

'Ena M. Clarkson (29)
The Clerk reported that an inmate named Ena M. Clarkson (29), who has previously had two illegitimate children, was in an advanced state of pregnancy and that the putative father of her child was an inmate named James Battista (23), a married man whose wife is living in North Shields.
Resolved:- "That, in accordance with the provisions of Article 35 of the Poor Law Institute Order, 1913, James Battista be punished as a refractory inmate by confinement in a separate room for 24 hours on a diet of bread and water, after which the Master arrange for this man to be employed on a task of stonebreaking.
Rev. S. Pearson - Mr Grant.'
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 13 November 22 19:05 GMT (UK)
Quote
the last known reference to him (assuming he is W.Brabant who removed Elizabeth from Tynemouth Union in 1904

I'd suggest that this was in fact the Mr Brabant who was appointed by the Tynemouth Board of Guardians in 1902 to be 'boys warden' at the workhouse (Shields Daily News 7th March 1902) Could his initial have been misread? The 1911 census reveals his christian names to have been Charles Lawrence. The surname plus the fact that he worked at Tynemouth Workhouse is too much of a coincidence otherwise.

Hi Jen,

It is of course a possibility, but I would have thought there might have been a reason noted for the master removing a young, female inmate?

I am very familiar with the Brabant's being in charge of the workhouse - Charles was the master and his wife the matron for a number of years.  There are lots of articles about their careers in the newspaper archive.

Giovanni was noted as 'William' on another of Elizabeth's workhouse records and I think there are obvious similarities between Brabant and Battista.

I do wonder about Giovanni being so brazen as to take his daughter out under the masters name, given he clearly did everything in his power to avoid supporting responsibility for his children.  But maybe he did it on a whim or under the influence! It may of been a sign of his desperation - Elizabeth was the youngest daughter and the only one who might have been susceptible to his charms and able to look after him.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Sunday 13 November 22 19:17 GMT (UK)

Thanks RTL  :)  It's been nice to work on things again!  I appreciate how difficult things are at the archives - fingers crossed things will relax in the near future.  I'd love to be able to get there myself, as well as to trawl through more of the workhouse records and guardians minutes in Newcastle and North Shields.  Giovanni must have had time in there as well, likely under an alias, so it would be very long search given all the possibilities.

Thanks for your input on James and Ena - I have been in brief contact with Ena Clarkson's descendants, but there is little interest.  I think it would be a case of a DNA match confirming the link. There is another article about him being in trouble for shouting at the Master not long after his punishment for being the father... I think the 'throwing hints' must have been about James loose morals lets say  ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 13 November 22 19:25 GMT (UK)
The Minutes held at North Shields local studies are in typed up volumes running from 1911 to 1930.
I believe there are much earlier Minutes held at the Archives.  Perhaps one day something more might be found in these relating to the Battista family.  I think there is still hope yet.  We mustn't give up. :)

Yes, I suspect there was no love lost between James and the Master. ;)
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 13 December 22 21:16 GMT (UK)
An update on the Battista story from archives today:

Tynemouth Workhouse Minutes -  23 December 1902 (Page 392):

'Resolved that authorities under the seal of the Board be given for legal proceedings by W (?) in the following cases viz:-
.. Against John Battista for neglecting to maintain his six children and for running away whereby they became chargeable in the workhouse.'

Tynemouth Workhouse Minutes - 5th March 1903 (Page 431)

'In the matter of five (sic) children deserted by their father, John Battista, an Italian who is now supposed to be  residing in Italy, the clerk was instructed to communicate with W (M?) Italian Vice-Consul at Newcastle on Tyne with a view to the Children being handed over to their father.'

I think they didn't sound very convinced Giovanni was in Italy.

Also, re Elizabeth Battista, it appears there was a double wedding along with her Father in law at St Andrew RC Church, Newcastle on 20 October.
(My earlier mistake in thinking the FamilySearch catalogue number related to St Dominic.)
Witnesses for both marriages were:
Henrico Hastings - 20 Pilgrim Street and
Maria (Zaneth?) - 38 Side.  And both brides and grooms from 2 Robin Hood Yard

There were notes in Latin in both entries.
In Elizabeth's entry there was this which I think might relate to births or baptisms?
1) Nat 25.12.1888
2) Nat 24.11.1888
Also a reference to what I think is their civil marriage?
'Mar civ  Newcastle . .. 4 (Sept?) 1917'
But is this the date you have on cert Sophie?  It really looks like Sept.
On Father in laws entry it his Father is recorded as Andrew Moralee and he was the widower of Margarita Moralee
Elizabeth Jennings' Father was Robert Booth
and she was widow of Patri Jennings
It looks like this Elizabeth was baptised at St Robert, Morpeth and dates are given
1) nat 23.9.1880
2) nat 12.8.1852
Their civil marriage date also seems to be recorded 7 Aug 1917 Newcastle

Plus more found relating to James Battista:

Feb 27th 1922 9.00 am James discharged (RC religion)

April 11th 1922  9.30 am Dorothy & John George Playford discharged.  Ages 24 & 2 and both EC religion

Oct 9th 1922 6.50 pm admitted:
James Battista  Seaman RC age 23
Two addresses given Clive Street, N/S & 11 Front Street
Nearest relative 'Brother Wm HMS (Thundon?/Thundern,) Portsmouth'
(This was ditto for Dorothy & Son John)
Dorothy Battista age 24 EC wife of James
Milburn Place N/S
John George Playford Boy age 2 ditto for Dorothy's address

Oct 23rd 1922 10.00  discharge:
Dorothy Battista & John George Playford
Remarks on Dorothy's entry 'To Mrs McFarlane 11 Middle Street, North Shields
Remarks on John's entry 'With Mother as above'.

Note in the Medical Officer's examination book both James and Dorothy were both recorded 'fit' for work.  Lucky as most people seemed to be recorded with an ailment or illness/condition.


Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 13 December 22 22:09 GMT (UK)
Just AMAZING RTL!  :o. Thank you so much for the effort of getting to the archives , especially through all the red tape and in this treacherous weather!

This is a brilliant breakthrough re Giovanni!  I'm going to see if I can find any newspaper articles or if there are any court records available.  My hope is that the board of guardians confirmed whether Giovanni did indeed return to Italy.  I am also intrigued as to what they meant by 'handing the children over to their father'.. would they have sent the children to Italy??  I agree with RTL, they clearly didn't believe he was in Italy.

FYI, they changed the number of children from six to five as daughter Elizabeth turned 16 in Oct 1902.

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: Love&Leaves on Tuesday 13 December 22 22:12 GMT (UK)
Regarding Elizabeth.. yes RTL 4 Sept 1917 is date on the certificate.  Can't get anymore definitive than this.  So definitely the Patterson alias and the Robins Hood Yard Moralee's  ;D
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: battista on Tuesday 13 December 22 23:39 GMT (UK)
Wow, fantastic work as always RTL! Yes, thank you so much for going to the archives. Above and beyond, never would I have imagined all the amazing folk here uncovering so much about our family. And how many distant family members have found this thread and come into contact with us, this the thread that keeps on giving.

What a journey, 4 1/2 years later. Thank you to everyone who has lent their time and effort, I am forever grateful.

I'm fairly poor using the Italian records site Antenati, quick search yielded nothing of value unfortunately. Was hoping maybe more records had been indexed. I recall going through the death records for his hometown of Cassino, trying to find his name in all the pages. Trouble is, he might not have died there, could've been many other places in Italy. Or, like the workhouse suspects, maybe a lot closer to home.
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 14 December 22 13:00 GMT (UK)
You are welcome Sophie and Battista. 
I will try to return to the archives again at some point in the New Year fitting in with my shifts and will look at more ‘Minutes’ hopefully to try to find whatever response there may have been from the Italian Consulate.  Albeit we know already, the hope that the children would be handed back to their Father fell through.
It feels like more questions raised now in following this story.  Things to cogitate on.
Such as I wonder how legal proceedings would be carried out against someone they couldn’t find.  Also, I wonder what clout an Italian Consulate would have in locating a missing Italian person.  I know nothing about the law and the powers of a Consulate.  It would be interesting to know more.
Also, presumably Elizabeth may have been required to show her civil marriage cert to the priest and he would not have just taken her word on this – or would he?  If so, I do wonder how she might have explained her use of an alias?
Also, just to add that I came across something yesterday that I had not been expecting to find.  My Great Grandmother’s second husband was also in the workhouse at that time and had bronchitis and sadly I know that he was on his way out at that point and was later buried at St John Annitsford.  They lived in Dudley but I daresay the workhouse would have supported quite a wide area.  In the entry his wife (my ancestor) is mistakenly recorded as Mary Ann but her real name was actually Eliza Ann.  It does make you think that mistakes would have been possible and going back to the ‘W. Brabant’ who took Elizabeth out I daresay it might have been possible that someone just recorded the initial incorrectly.  Just a thought.
I do wonder where Brabant took her out too and for what purpose.  Hopefully, the 'Minutes' might reveal a bit more in 2023. ;)
Wishing you all a Merry Christmas and Thanks to all who have helped contributed so far.  :)

Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 06 January 23 10:08 GMT (UK)
Just to update, I looked further in the Minutes yesterday but up to 13 Feb 1908 I found no more references to Giovanni/John or any more re any response from the Italian Consul.
However, the writing in the entries is not the easiest on the eye I find so I may have inadvertently missed something.  That might be a possibility.
What I did find was a further reference to 'W. Brabant' in Minutes of14th September 1905 on page 485.  This concerned 'approving payment' of 'gratuity of £3 to W. Brabant, Girls' Industrial Trainer'
Title: Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Friday 24 February 23 09:36 GMT (UK)
Just a further update .. I was able to find something else yesterday that I had missed last time.  I think last time I had been rushing too much and had tried to cover too much at once.  The workhouse Minutes volumes are huge and the writing is difficult, at least on my brain.  I won’t give up my day job. ;)

This is the reference and what I found:
Ref: PU.TY/1/1/24 Tynemouth Workhouse Minutes – 21 March 1901 – 11 June 1903
Page 440 Minutes dated 19 March 1903:
‘Read letter, dated 12 instant, from Mr (A V Montaldi?) Italian Vice Consul at Newcastle on  Tyne, acknowledging receipt of the boards letter, with reference to the children of Giovanni Battista, inmates of the workhouse, and stating that he had forwarded the letter to his superior office in Liverpool.’