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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: squatt on Thursday 24 May 18 10:30 BST (UK)
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hello
i am looking for the births of the following children to
george muir papermaker wife jane muir
john muir 1822
lillias muir 1823
james muir 1825
alexander muir 1827
george muir 1832
catherine muir 1829
several of the later census puts there place of birth edinburgh
found nothing on scotlands people findmypast ancestry or family search
thanks for looking
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found nothing on scotlands people findmypast ancestry or family search
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
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If mum Jane is Jane Wilken then you will find some of the children were born at Slains.
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If mum Jane is Jane Wilken then you will find some of the children were born at Slains.
This is a red herring.
The 1841 (transcription at https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl) lists the family in Lasswade: George, 50; Jannet, 50; Liles, 18; James, 16; Alexr, 14; Catheron, 12; George, 9. All born in Midlothian.
The family of George Muir and Jane Wilken/Wilkin, all baptised in Slains, are
Helen, 1819
George, 1821
John, 1822
Alexander, 1824
Mary, 1826
Isabella, 1827
Jean, 1829
Christian, 1831
Jean, 1833
Elspeth, 1835
Thomas, 1838
Margaret, 1840
Catherine, 1841
and there is a family at Nether Leask, Slains, in 1841 consisting of George, 55; Jean, 40; Hellen, 20; George, 15; Alexr, 15; Isibela, 12; Jean, 7; Elspet, 5; Thomas, 3; and Margaret, 1. All born in Aberdeenshire.
Therefore the Jane you are looking for is not Jane Wilken.
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george we think was born around 1800
jane his wife around 1792
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They are both listed in the 1841 census as aged 50. Adults' ages in 1841 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest five years, and the census was taken on the night of 7 June 1841.
Therefore, if the ages recorded are accurate, both George and Jane were born between 8 June 1796 and 7 June 1801.
Where were they in later censuses? What were their ages and birthplaces in those censuses? Did they die in Scotland? If so, their death certificates should tell you the full names of their parents including their mother's maiden surnames.
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George died in Durham in 1854 aged 55 (papermaker)
Jane we have no idea where she ended up but she was alive in Durham in 1871 she may have ended up back in Scotland as some of her children traveled back and forth to Scotland/north of England
Son john 1871 Durham, 1881 Lasswade, 1891 Northumberland
another son had children in both scotland and england
another daughter had children in both scotland and england
two different census put Janes birth around 1792 but 1 puts it around 1800
some English census put their births as Scotland but a couple specify Edinburgh
I know where all ended up apart from james b1825 and alexander born 1827 but i cannot find where any were born.
I did find a james muir who married an Ann Robertson in may 1852 (Glasgow/Edinburgh) but no mention of who his parents were
regards
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My reason for asking where they were in later censuses was so that I could take a look at the originals and see if I could deduce anything. I haven't been able to find most of the census records you referred to.
I did find one, however. I see that in 1851 they were at Goose Eye, Keighley, Yorkshire
George Muir, head, married, 50, paper maker, born Scotland, Edinburgh
Jean Muir, wife, married, 51, house work, born Scotland, Edinburgh
Lillies Muir, daughter, unmarried, 22, paper maker, born Scotland, Edinburgh
Jannet Watson, sister, widowed, 70 or 72, house work, born Scotland, Edinburgh
If their ages were accurate George would have been born between 31 March 1800 and 30 March 1801, and Jean between 31 March 1799 and 30 March 1800. Both of these dates are consistent with their ages as listed in 1841.
It doesn't state specifically whether they were born in the city of Edinburgh or the county of Edinburgh (i.e. Midlothian). So this isn't inconsistent with the 1841 either.
However Lilias' age is inconsistent - she is listed as 18 in 1841 and as 22 in 1851.
You haven't mentioned Janet Muir or Watson, who could possibly provide a clue.
The John Muir in the 1881 census in Edinburgh who was born in Lasswade was aged 62, which if accurate gives a birth between 4 April 1818 and 3 April 1819, not in 1822. What evidence do you have for him being the son of George and Jane?
I see that in 1881 John had a wife Margaret, son William, 24, and daughter Margaret, 20. They look like the family of John Muir and Margaret Young
William, born 23 June 1853, Edinburgh Canongate
Robert, born 12 October 1855, Edinburgh Parish
Margaret Plummer, born 5 June 1860, Edinburgh Canongate.
Because it's 1855, Robert's birth certificate will tell you when and where his parents were born, which may help to pin down whether or not that is your John Muir.
Margaret Muir, other surname Young, died in Edinburgh St Andrew in 1899 aged 73. Her death certificate will tell you whether or not she was a widow, which may help to find her husband's death certificate, which (if he died in Scotland) should tell you the full names of both his parents including his mother's maiden surname.
James Muir and Ann Robertson had a daughter Helen Smart Muir, born in Edinburgh on 25 April 1855. Because it's 1855, that birth certificate will tell you when and where her parents were born, which may help to pin down whether or not that is your James Muir.
There's a listing of a family in Hunslet, Yorkshire in 1861 consisting of
Isaac Muir, head, married, 35, steam engine fitter, born Scotland
Ann Muir, wife, married, 29, born Scotland
Isabella C Muir, daughter, 7, born Hunslet
Helen S Muir, daughter, 5, born Scotland
Ann Muir, daughter, 3, born Hunslet
Alexander R Muir, son, 10 months, born Hunslet
and the GRO web site lists matching children, mother's maiden surname Robertson
Isabella, birth registered in Hunslet, 1853, June quarter
Ann, birth registered in Hunslet, 1857, September quarter
unnamed child, birth registered in Hunslet, 1860, June quarter
James, birth registered in Hunslet, 1864, March quarter
In 1871, at 50 Portland Crescent, Leeds are
James Muir, 45; Ann Muir, 39; Isabella Muir, 17; Helen Muir, 15; Ann Muir, 13; Alexander Muir, 10; James Muir, 7. James sr, Ann sr and Helen born in Scotland; Isabella, Ann jr, Alexander and James jr born in Leeds.
So I reckon Isaac in 1861 is actually James, misrecorded by the enumerator. It would be easy enough to check - just get hold of the birth certificate of one of the Hunslet-born children.
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I will certainly take a look at the birth certificate of James child as you suggest
My John Muir in 1881 is living in lasswade with wife susannah
They were married in Durham 1850 on the marriage cert said father George occupation papermaker
They moved to jarrow in 1851 census (mistranscribed as meir) they had his brother Alexander Muir born around 1827 papermaker
Catherine daughter is living in Durham 1851 census as boarder with John harness/McLean/McLen
She married him in 1855 her father is George Muir. They stayed in Durham as McLen/mclean and in 1871 census had Jane Muir living with them.
Lilias was in goose eye with father and mother etc in 1851 which is not far from hunslet hence my thoughts with that James. Lillias then married a Robert Hunnam from ford Sunderland where they moved too and lived on several census. Since she married someone from that area she and her father must have been in that area before 1851 (there was a ford papermill) for Lillias and Robert to meet
So family names match, ages match they were in the same locations at the same time but to confirm 100% I need to find there births.
Thanks for looking
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Ah, I see. I searched for a John Muir born 1822 plus or minus 5 years. The one with wife Susanna is listed as 50, which means born 1830 or 1831, so no wonder I didn't find him.
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So family names match, ages match they were in the same locations at the same time but to confirm 100% I need to find there births.
I've been mulling over this, and I'm not sure that finding their births will actually prove conclusively who was who.
You have evidence from the 1841 and 1851 that they were all born in Midlothian, and you also have evidence from the 1841 for the children's years of birth (except John, who was not listed with his parents and siblings). From the 1851 census, you have evidence for more precise years of birth for George and Jane/Jean/Jan(n)et, and confirmation that they were born in Midlothian, possibly Edinburgh.
If any of them had married in Scotland after 1855, their marriage certificates would have provided definite evidence because Scottish marriage certificates give the full maiden names of the couple's mothers. But without knowing Jane/Jean/Jan(n)et's surname from other evidence even that wouldn't be proof.
I looked to see if Susannah Muir, née Patterson, had died in Scotland but that does not seem to be the case. It would be possible to find out whether her husband died in Scotland, but a bit time-consuming, especially if he didn't, and with the eight-year discrepancy between his DoB as stated in your first post and his age as recorded in the 1881 census. 73 deaths of John Muirs born between 1821 and 1831 were registered in Scotland after 1881.
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Susannah Muir died in cornforth in 1903
James was married in Scotland in 1852 but the record only mentioned bride a grooms name and brides fathers name.
A had a look at Helen smart Muir birth, it only told us what we already new and that they are the hunslet family. I did again say James was born in edinburgh.
I did try and find a George Muir with a sister jannet Watson but according to 51 census she would have been born in the 1770's so no luck
John Muir would have been the oldest child and aged 19ishmay have left home, I know he was in durham pre 1850 because that's when he married Susana
Thanks for your help in the search