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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Tracey NZ on Sunday 27 May 18 03:51 BST (UK)
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James Williams (also referred to as James Payne Williams) was an early NZ settler/whale station manager; he married newly arrived UK immigrant Jane Florence, and after her early death he married Janes younger cousin Arabella (also of the missionary Kendall family). James and Arabella went on to have a number of children. A written description of James exists but I have yet to come across his engraving in early records. Arabellas final will and testament however, refers to a framed engraving of her deceased husband James.
I am therefore seeking anyone who might have this image, or any other image of James in their family records. I and other descendants have collated a lot of information about James. A Private Message would be very gratefully received if anyone can be of help in this regard.
Tracey NZ, Descendent of James and Jane
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Hi Tracey,
What period of time are you looking at please?
Unless you really want it by PM it is better for folk to post here so we don't repeat or double up on information.
Have you looked on PapersPast?
Cheers Janette
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Hi TraceyNZ,
I agree with Janette's recommendation to keep responses on this public forum so everyone can see the progress made.
A detailed biography and family tree for James Payne WILLIAMS and descendants is here:
http://www.names.nzearlyhistory.com/g1/p832.htm
This web page also gives a different spelling for Jane's surname, FLORANCE.
Spades
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Hi Tracey,
There are two Private Trees on Ancestry for this family, perhaps they might have a photo or two.
Cheers
KHP
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Many thanks for feedback. Spades, interestingly the written biography is an article which I wrote for an online NZ Family Newsletter. The article was cut and pasted in full (including my first person comments!), without reference and under this person's own name. Very disappointing when this happens.
As mentioned, I am looking for an image only at this point. I will invest in a subscription as suggested, with the hope there is a photo in the Ancestry Trees, thanks.
Very happy to keep in the public forum, however, if someone has an image they wish to share privately, I will confirm in this forum as such.
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Hi Tracey, Have you tried searching "Papers Past" a free site of NZ newspapers -- just a chance it may have been published .
Regards
clancam37
James Williams (also referred to as James Payne Williams) was an early NZ settler/whale station manager; he married newly arrived UK immigrant Jane Florence, and after her early death he married Janes younger cousin Arabella (also of the missionary Kendall family). James and Arabella went on to have a number of children. A written description of James exists but I have yet to come across his engraving in early records. Arabellas final will and testament however, refers to a framed engraving of her deceased husband James.
I am therefore seeking anyone who might have this image, or any other image of James in their family records. I and other descendants have collated a lot of information about James. A Private Message would be very gratefully received if anyone can be of help in this regard.
Tracey NZ, Descendent of James and Jane
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Tracey,
Before taking out a subscription, why not visit your library and see if they have the Ancestry Library Edition, they should be able to help you around the site.
Cheers
KHP
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Excellent ideas, many thanks.
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I would also suggest contacting local museums and New Zealand National Library to see if they have any information about the engraving you are seeking.
Spades
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Thanks Spades.
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Nothing on Papers Past... (apart from his death notices) as I've scoured that myself in search of information on James.
Ours will be one of the private family trees on ancestry.com. My husband is a WILLIAMS.
We were up at Whangaroa Harbour ten days' ago, and were speaking to someone there who told us of a book available in Kaeo, about early Whangaroa. Given Arabella was born there (along with siblings) it might be worth tracking down the book... unfortunately it was the end of the day when we were there and although we were told it was available at the library, we couldn't find the library, but there is a small museum, which was closed.
The FLORANCE spelling dominates, and is the only one I use in our records. I think only registrars and indexers use the other spelling! LOL!
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Might be worth making enquiries here......
AUCKLAND LIBRARY-HERITAGE COLLECTIONS
https://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/Pages/heritage-collections.aspx
We house a wide range of heritage items and history resources such as original manuscripts, rare books, maps and heritage collections.
Photographs · Manuscripts · Rare books
Auckland Libraries: Photographs
https://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/Pages/heritage-photographs.aspx
We have a large collection of heritage photographs from the 1800s to the present day.
Auckland Libraries: Heritage collections
https://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/Pages/guide-heritage-collections.aspx
Browse through our heritage collections, from rare books to maps and photographs. ... Visit Sir George Grey Special Collections on level 2 of the Central City ...
Sir George Grey Special Collections
www.georgegrey.org.nz/
In 1887, Sir George Grey gave Auckland citizens a range of precious heritage ... Tā Hori Kerei - Ngā kohinga taonga whakahirahira at Auckland Libraries.
Auckland Library Heritage Trust - Grey Collection: The Gift
www.georgegrey.org.nz/History/AucklandLibraryHeritageTrust.aspx
The Auckland Library Heritage Trust was formed in 1991 as a charitable trust. ... Sir George Grey Special Collections for the benefit of the people of Auckland.
Minniehaha.
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given the time-frame, Auckland Museum's library is even more likely.
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Thanks Jools, I will keep a look out for the book.
I am a bit slack as I resort to writing Florance with an 'e' sometimes. The birth records for Jane Florance - James William's first wife and a direct ancestor - and her parents/siblings were all transcribed with an 'e'; no doubt should have been an 'a.'
I think, along with other researchers, that I have found all I can about James - discounting the non-referenced info. such as his supposed birthdate and 'parents' - no record has surfaced to date to verify these and therefore are purely a guess unless proved otherwise. No names were entered on his death certificate so not even his children appeared to know much about his background, apart from 'tall' stories he might have told. No engraving has surfaced either if there is still one to be had. At least we have a first-hand description of James from Wakefield's journal when he arrived in NZ. A 'big' character all round by the sounds of it! :)
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I agree... that there is a birth date floating around for James is interesting but non-conclusive. No baptisms in London (available to date) match, and there's not a single time I've seen Payne as a middle name, except for Mercy Ellen... and even then the variations are inconsistent... there are some interesting surnames used as middle names in Arabella's children... but they're not proving useful either.
The family tree that purports the date of birth and middle name for James has a large number of errors for the names and dates of their children...
One train of thought I've had... there are a family of WILLIAMS on the Bolton. Jane & James marry less than three months after her arrival on said ship. Is there a specific reason he was in Hutt/Wellington and met her so soon after her arrival?
Things I'm still struggling to answer... where is he buried? Auckland Church of England Cemetery should be Symonds Street, or Waikumete, but I can't find a record in either.
Who is the third child born at the time Jane died?
And in case you haven't found them... I found John and Jane Biggins FLORANCE's deaths and burials yesterday!!! (I've only just come back to working on this family in the past few days, since I first started on my hubby's family tree four years' ago!)
My email address: (*)
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to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Presumably you have checked London baptisms for James Payne as he may have been illegitimate and attached the Williams surname if his mother subsequently married a Mr. Williams.
Can't do any searching as there is no time frame mentioned anywhere in this thread.
Pheno
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I should have thought of doing that, but I'm not certain I have! :o :o
I shall address that anomaly now. ::)
But at least today, going over records I've done before I found him happily resting in peace in the Symonds Street Cemetery... in perpetuity, (not moved for the motorway) along with his first wife (although it's not clear they're buried anywhere near each other!)
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LOL! Well the birth date I've seen for James Payne WILLIAMS on family trees matches this:
Name James John Payne
Gender Male
Christening Date 04 Sep 1809
Christening Place ST SEPULCHRE,LONDON,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date 05 Nov 1808
Father's Name James Payne
Mother's Name Hannah
~ however, how does everyone (innumerable family trees) have a birthdate, and *only* London? Is there a family bible it could be matched to? Wanders off for the next instalment... Hannah's maiden name (BOWDEN??) burial of James snr... and a remarriage.
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I have also seen this baptism record and assume that is why the birth date has arisen and has since been taken as 'gospel' by other searchers. James has also been allocated another set of parents in another online site simply because the name 'Payne' appears! ??? Until a family member comes forward with a copy of of a record, as you say, I propose that his parents are 'unknown'. As you have raised, James' first born child to Jane Florance was christened with a middle name 'Pain' and this is the only online record with this name. Another note is that Arabella's impressive memorial monument notes husband "Cpt James Williams". James called himself 'Captain' in his whaling days and this stuck.
I have written a summary about James in an online e-newsletter and can give you if you want to private message me. I also have a very detailed summary from his early whaling days through to his second marriage, and includes the Florances early days in England and Jane's parents who went onto USA (Jane came with the family on the Bolton which is how she met James). :)
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Frustratingly, I tried to give you my email address, and rootschat removed it! Is there another way to private message? You could probably find me on ancestry... hubby's tree is GKWFamTreeMay18, (private)...
What am I missing in regards to James and the "Bolton"?
Oh and the South Australians are having a field day with their online trees that purport their John (son of Samuel) as being born in UK, and confusing Christopher's son Alfred with their Alfred. I tear my hair out all the time at those who copy family trees without trying to verify a single piece of information.
I've yet to find Ellen's death in USA... got waylaid last night with Gracie May Day... (gives me the giggles)!
We went to Worth & East Grinstead on our honeymoon... and St Mary's Lambeth (but it was closed for repairs,), and of course, all the Lincolnshire parishes. I've family on my own side that come from Brixton and etc. and a family at St Sepulchre, so I know the churches, the parishes and places reasonably well, which is handy. Hubby's ancestors and mine cross paths in Norfolk, Lincolnshire, Tasmania, Sydney, Feilding and Bay of Islands... but we don't match on DNA. Phew!!!
I do suspect there is a family bible though... as some trees are *almost* accurate, but purport a day/month and wrong year (when matched to civil/parish records), which is quite typical of oral/family traditions... and/or an Amy instead of Amelia kind of thing. As if, someone in hindsight, tried to recall the details of their Aunt/Uncle and nearly got it right. Somewhere out there is the mother lode!!! LOL
J
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Jools you can exchange messages through the Rootschat private messaging system. Look for the right hand black circle with the green light in it, on the left of the page, under the number of your posts made [18].......
If unsure what to do, have a look at "HELP" on the brown bar above.
[You should probably also remove the Family Tree contact in your latest message.]
Minniehaha. :)
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Thanks... but I don't know why I need to remove the reference to our family tree... it's viewable in that format in the public domain! ???
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Hi Jools,
I'm not 100% positive but have asked a Moderator to clarify. Then we will both know... :)
Minniehaha.
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Jools
Nice to make contact. Do you think we can discount the birth of:
"James John Payne, born 05/11/1808 in St Sepulchre to father James and mother Hannah"
James John Payne was one of at least four children born between 1796 and 1809 to James and Hannah, with another late comer in 1823! There is a death as follows which could be the same James John Payne?
Name: James John Payne
Burial: 5/4/1837
Place: St Sepulchre, London
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No age given at the death????
I think we stick to "parents unknown", and hope we can find the person, somewhere, somehow, who first promulgated *that* date of birth for James.
Begs the question, that even if he did add WILLIAMS for a logical reason, why would he drop the John?
1841 Census of London for a publican and carrier of suitable age as his father would be nice!!!
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Hi Jools,
We remove email addresses because RootsChat is public forum, if you reveal your email address it is likely to be picked up by spammer. As Minihaha has correctly said, to send a pm you click on the round dark button below the persons name to send private information that can only be viewed by them.
For further Help click on "Help" and then near the top you will see
"How can I send a private message to a RootsChat member ?" and it takes you this page
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Regards
Sarah