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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Pennines on Monday 28 May 18 11:07 BST (UK)

Title: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Pennines on Monday 28 May 18 11:07 BST (UK): Just to mention that the old saying 'Don't cast a clout till May is out' seems to have been entirely inappropriate this year -- even here 'up North'. Not that I've ever been entirely sure what a 'clout' is!
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: josey on Monday 28 May 18 11:11 BST (UK): Yes, as someone else living 'up north' it has been lovely to cast off clothing so early in the year [not today however - misty across the valley].

...something with the same origin as 'cloutie dumpling' ie a dumpling cooked in a cloth.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Pennines on Monday 28 May 18 11:21 BST (UK): Hi Josey,

Boiling where I am in Lancs -- and very sunny. Makes me realise I'm getting older -- don't like it so hot anymore.

If I was to sit out in it I might indeed be a 'dumpling cooked in a cloth'.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Christine53 on Monday 28 May 18 11:22 BST (UK): I'm just back from 3 weeks hill walking in the Lake District. Sunglasses , hats and sunscreen all the way and the waterproofs stayed in the rucksacks - wonderful !
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: stanmapstone on Monday 28 May 18 11:26 BST (UK): From the OED
Clout Applied contemptuously to any article of clothing;........ and in proverb ne'er cast a clout till May be out (and variants).

Stan
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: ROSEPIP on Monday 28 May 18 11:35 BST (UK): neer cast a clout till may is out
is do not take of warm clothing until the mayflower is out (hawthorn ) not the month of may
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Gillg on Monday 28 May 18 11:43 BST (UK): For some of us , the saying says not simply "May", but "the May", referring to hawthorn blossom. When you see the hedgerows full of its creamy blossom, you know it's time to cast your clout (woolly vest, Liberty bodice, extra sweater, thick socks, Long Johns or whatever you've been wearing to keep out the cold all winter).

Oops, Rosepip, have just seen your post pop up!

Pennines
living in Lancs I'm surprised you haven't come across "clout" before. I was born and brought up there and know it from my early years living there. Maybe you're a lot younger than I am. :) I dare say that Rochdale dialect has chenged a lot!
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Mart 'n' Al on Monday 28 May 18 11:47 BST (UK): I'm just back from mid Wales with sunburn.

Martin
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: heywood on Monday 28 May 18 12:01 BST (UK): Quote from: Gillg on Monday 28 May 18 11:43 BST (UK)

living in Lancs I'm surprised you haven't come across "clout" before. I was born and brought up there and know it from my early years living there. Maybe you're a lot younger than I am. :) I dare say that Rochdale dialect has chenged a lot!

We didn’t refer to clothing though - it was more of a thump or a slap ‘get a clout from your mam when she finds out ...’ :o
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: heywood on Monday 28 May 18 12:03 BST (UK): The weather here though is lovely - no rain or storm as as yet but it has been very windy for a few days now.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Pennines on Monday 28 May 18 12:09 BST (UK): Gillg --- I have only come across 'clout' referring to clothing within this saying actually.

Heywood ---Yes it did refer to a thump from your Mum or Dad -- 'I'll give you a clout'. (Not that it was EVER said to me of course, I was a good child!)

I must admit I did think it was the month of May -- and not the 'mayflower'.

It makes you wonder who was the ONE person who said this originally, when and why - and then it spread countrywide. (I am assuming it spread countrywide anyway).
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Gillg on Monday 28 May 18 12:10 BST (UK): We didn’t refer to clothing though - it was more of a thump or a slap ‘get a clout from your mam when she finds out ...’ :o
[/quote]

Yep, I've had a few clouts in my time (in the days when it was not a crime to give them, I hasten to add.).
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Pennines on Monday 28 May 18 12:35 BST (UK): Also -- different topic really -- can you remember 'walking up the brew' -- meaning up a hill?

(I can't remember walking 'down' the brew though). And of course a 'brew' was and still is - a cup of tea.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: andrewalston on Monday 28 May 18 13:06 BST (UK): "Brew" is the local pronunciation of "Brow". Further south (Staffordshire-ish), the term gets replaced by "bank". By the time you reach the Black Country, that is pronounced more like "bonk". When I lived in Stourbridge, I never quite mastered the local pronunciation of "Quarry Bank".

I'm afraid that the May blossom on the hawthorn tree 30 yards from where I'm sitting is now faded. Last week there was nothing but white showing. So even sticklers for tradition need to get rid of some layers. :)
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: stanmapstone on Monday 28 May 18 13:12 BST (UK): From "Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable",
Cast not a clout till May is out An old warning not to shed winter clothing too early in the year. 'Clout' here is rag or patch, hence a piece of clothing. May is also another name for hawthorn which blossoms in May. Thus some hold that the proverb means 'do not discard clothing until the hawthorn blossoms', but more likely it means 'wait until the end of May'. F.K Robinson's Whitby Glossary (1855) has
The wind at North and East
Was never good for man nor beast
So never think to cast a clout
Until the month of May be out.

Stan
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Pennines on Monday 28 May 18 13:33 BST (UK): Andrew -- oh my goodness, better not comment on the Black Country pronounciation of the word 'Bank'!

Stan -- thank you for that poem - very interesting. Now you have mentioned that I vaguely remember it, but had totally forgotten about it. You are always a mine of information.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: andrewalston on Monday 28 May 18 14:58 BST (UK): On a slightly more local theme, one term that puzzled me as a child were references to "going over the moor". This is Chorley in Lancashire, where "moor" is pronounced "moo-er", not the same as "more".

They were referring to "Chorley Moor". I knew that moors were upland, uncultivated places where heather grows, but "Chorley Moor" is lined with houses. It isn't what you'd call upland either - a gentle slope rising 4 feet in half a mile, followed by a steeper slope down into the river valley.

These days the road is split into Pall Mall and Moor Road, names established by the time of the OS maps, but register entries still 4refer to the lot as "Chorley Moor" until about 1900.

The oldest maps I can find, though, show fields each side, and there are farmhouses from the early 1700s, so it must be a LONG time since it was uncultivated.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Pennines on Monday 28 May 18 15:54 BST (UK): Andrew -- out of interest I have just said the word 'moor' out loud - and realised I pronounce it 'moower'.

It's not like Lancastrians to ADD letters or syllables to words - we usually omit what we consider to be unnecessary, thereby shortening things I suppose. The word 'our' is simply pronounced as 'R' --- as in another saying --- 'Well I'll go to foot of r stairs'.

This is an expression used to denote shock or surprise -- and makes no sense whatsoever in that context!
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Sinann on Monday 28 May 18 16:07 BST (UK): Quote from: Pennines on Monday 28 May 18 15:54 BST (UK)
'Well I'll go to foot of r stairs'.
I know that one well.
I worked with a girl from Blackburn for years and had to learnt new expressions and words like ginnel and having a camp (gossip).
My grandmother had a word I've never heard anywhere else.
Devarting, not sure if that's how it sould be spelt, she used it when we were young women going out at the weekends to disco's etc. Off out devarting. Anyone know it?
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: heywood on Monday 28 May 18 16:24 BST (UK): Corruption of ‘cavorting’ perhaps?
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: gaffy on Monday 28 May 18 16:45 BST (UK): My late mother had a thing about bird droppings falling on you being lucky. When I was young and happened to be splattered from on high with a large dollop of bird poop, I remember her gleefully announcing something like, 'That's good luck for the rest of the year'.

In retrospect, I cannot recollect any unusual abundance of good luck following such an incident.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: ..claire.. on Monday 28 May 18 17:21 BST (UK): My Grandmother used the phrase "Muck for Luck" if a bird happened to poop on some unfortunate soul.

If anyone ever asked her - Are you alright ?

She would always answer with "I'm all right down one side and left down the other"

And it's still beautiful weather in lovely Lancashire :)
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Pennines on Monday 28 May 18 18:23 BST (UK): Sinann -- you are an Irish expert, so I am amazed at you knowing ginnel and camp (gossip). Both are still in common usage.

By coincidence, like your friend --- I'm also from Blackburn, -- but I've never heard of going out 'devarting' (or is that an Irish saying?)--- what I've missed! Sheltered upbringing of course.

Yes --- 'muck for luck' and 'where there's muck there's brass'. (Brass meaning money) ----but why is there brass where there's muck? That's a saying which doesn't necessarily make sense either.

Claire -- yes I agree 'right down one side and left down t'other'. Whoever it was who said it always thought they had come out with a great witticism didn't they.

I just love accents - i can remember a time when you could tell whether a person was from my town -- or one only 5 miles distant by the way they pronounced certain words. That difference seems to be dying out a bit now.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Viktoria on Monday 28 May 18 20:55 BST (UK): I`ll go to the foot of" r" stairs is where I live, the pronunciation of" our"it is not a minimalisation of our just the way we say our.
It sounds like are--"-are `ouse"= our house.
Viktoria.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Sinann on Monday 28 May 18 21:02 BST (UK): The devarting was my grandmother from Westmeath.
Are you another Vimto fan, my friend used to bring the full 12 big bottles still in the plastic wrapper as it is delivered to a shop over to Ireland each time she made a visit home. She had it all to herself none of us liked it.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: pharmaT on Monday 28 May 18 22:06 BST (UK): Quote from: Gillg on Monday 28 May 18 12:10 BST (UK)
We didn’t refer to clothing though - it was more of a thump or a slap ‘get a clout from your mam when she finds out ...’ :o

Yep, I've had a few clouts in my time (in the days when it was not a crime to give them, I hasten to add.).
[/quote]

In the saying "ne'er cast a clout" it rhymes with toot rather than out and can also be spelt cloot depending on the area of Scotland.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Sinann on Monday 28 May 18 22:36 BST (UK): On the subject of May
A wet and windy May fills the barn with corn and hay.
Most people probably don't care any more.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: jaybelnz on Monday 28 May 18 23:46 BST (UK): CLOOTIE DUMPLING

Whit ye need
Punna self raisin floor
Punna currants an a haunfa o’ raisins
Quartera punna suet
Haufa pun granulatit sugar
Fower wee teaspoonsfa o’ mixed spice
A big pincha saut, some mulk

How ye dae it
Rummle up the hale jing-bang in the boul, addin a wee tate mulk so’s ye get a dough that’s stiff an no runny
Tim some bilin watter oot the kettle inty the fit o’ the basin an’
Spread the cloot oan top o’ the watter
Coup the hale o’ yur dough oot the bowl an’ on tae the cloot in the basin. Draw the coarners o’ the clootie gather an’ tie wi’ the string. Don’t tie the string too tight or the dumpling might burst efter swelling upan’ ye’d be in a hangaua mess. Noo ye’ve a big bag o’d dough about the size o’ a fitba. Next ye pit a plate in the fit o’ the big poat. Then ye gently lower the dumpling oan tae the plate.
Efter theat poor as much bilin’ watter intae the poat as will cover yur dumpling.
Efter a’ this cairry-oan ye’ll mibbe want a cuppa tea an’ a fag or evena wee dram. Anyway whitivvur ye dae don’t let the dumplin simmer fur mair than three-an-a-hauf hoors. Efter that time wheech it oot the poat an oan tae a plate. Peel aff the cloot an’ therr ye hauv a dish fit tae set afore a dizzen Royal Thingamys!
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Pennines on Tuesday 29 May 18 10:13 BST (UK): Oh wow -- Rootschatters are wonderful!

In these last few messages I have been taught a new Irish word -- 'devarting'. My mother in law was from Westmeath - (she must never have 'devarted' as she never used that word) ---- reminded of Vimto -- (I didn't realise that wasn't a countrywide drink) ----- and also had a Scottish cookery lesson!

Brilliant. Thank you to everyone who joined in.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Skoosh on Tuesday 29 May 18 10:23 BST (UK): jaybeinz, can just smell it! A slice of it fried the next day is my fav' ;D

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: josey on Tuesday 29 May 18 11:41 BST (UK): Quote from: Pennines on Tuesday 29 May 18 10:13 BST (UK)
My mother in law was from Westmeath - (she must never have 'devarted' as she never used that word)
My grandmother was from Westmeath too - also never 'devarted' but talked about 'mortages' [mortgage] & 'fillums' [films].

What a hoot your recipe is jaybelnz, loved the bit about needing a wee dram. I once made a vegetarian cloutie dumpling for my workmates at Perth Royal Infirmary - there were no complaints so I must have done it right!!
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: jaybelnz on Wednesday 30 May 18 03:47 BST (UK): You like CLOOTIE Dumpling then??? I ;D ;D I've actually never eaten it, as per the recipe, as I don't like raisins or sultanas. My Grandmother and Mum both made the full fruit version, but a couple of small ones without the fruit also went " Inta the post" - just for me.

My Dad and my 2 brothers loved the fruit recipe version, and would also fry up the leftovers! They did the same with Christmas Cake, but I got to eat the lovely Christmas Cake icing!

There's only one kind of fruit cake that I will eat and enjoy. It has sultanas and tinned fruit salad in the recipe! Very Yummy! 😜
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 31 May 18 23:04 BST (UK): My Mother to my Brother who was always climbing on walls: "If you fall and break your leg, don't come running to me" ???
If we were messing about with sticks...."you'll have somebody's eye out with that" I never knew any one-eyed kids when I was growing.
Carol
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: jaybelnz on Friday 01 June 18 10:17 BST (UK): It was never said directly to me, but my Mum told me there was an old Scottish saying - "ye'll get Ye'er heid in ye'er honds and Ye'er teeth tae play with"! Ouch - that sounds a bit rough! 😜

I was lucky enough when I visited Scotland and was able to have recorded one of my elderly Scottish relatives reading the Clootie Dumpling recipe out in her lovely Scottish Accent! We had to do it twice, because she kept laughing, but I have it on a CD! Haven't had it out for years, but now I'm feeling it's time to dig it out and have a laugh. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: suzard on Friday 01 June 18 10:56 BST (UK): Back to never cast a clout before May is out

we always took that to mean you shouldn't take your vest off before the end of May

"Clout" also meant a slap

but "Clouts" is a very old slang word for pants

When it was raining heavily it was said "it's not fit to turn a dog out"

This used to annoy me when I was sent off to school in the pouring rain with Mother saying "It's not fit to turn a dog out off you go straight to school now"

Suz
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Kiltpin on Friday 01 June 18 11:25 BST (UK): I was eight years old. Not very sporty, but I had been given an old lace-up leather football. I spent one wet and windy afternoon kicking it around the local park. There was not one puddle that had not been splashed. I arrived home, bouncing the ball in front of me.

In our entrance hall, I gave it an extra hard bounce and it rose up to the ceiling. I left a perfectly round mark and imprint of the laces. I stood there in horror.

My mother saw the mark and uttered the words that have stayed with me for over 50 years -

"I spent all morning, on my hands and knees, scrubbing that ceiling!"
Regards

Chas
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Flattybasher9 on Friday 01 June 18 11:32 BST (UK): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clootie

Malky
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Skoosh on Friday 01 June 18 14:24 BST (UK): Malky, breadcrumbs? not in ma Maws dumpling, it was made for a birthday, breadcrumbs! Sounds a but parsimonious! ;D Throw another lentil into the soup while you're at it!

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Saturday 02 June 18 17:26 BST (UK): Could "devarting" be a corruption of "diverting"?? Just a thought...
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Skoosh on Saturday 02 June 18 18:58 BST (UK): TV chef Nick Nairn making Nettle Soup in New Lanark on Landward, went down well with the public!

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: familydar on Saturday 02 June 18 21:54 BST (UK): my Mum, being coy about her age, would say "as old as my tongue and a little bit older than my teeth".

Jane :-)
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: jaybelnz on Sunday 03 June 18 01:32 BST (UK): ;D ;D ;D. So did mine Jane 👏👏👍
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: familydar on Sunday 03 June 18 07:37 BST (UK): And at night my sister and I would go "up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire"
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: jaybelnz on Sunday 03 June 18 08:11 BST (UK): I just recalled bedtime, when my Dad would say " C'mon precious, time for us to head off to Blanket Bay". he'd tuck me in then tell me one of my favourite stories and always sang me to sleep with "Daddy's Little Girl"! I can still see him sitting beside me singing that song. I often listen to it on YouTube, and always dissolve into happy tears! 😍😍
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Jed59 on Sunday 17 June 18 01:34 BST (UK): When parental patience was exhausted and it was time for bed “Come on..up them dancers NOW!” Dancers .. ginger rogers and Fred Astaire.(stairs).
Also, if an adult visited a warning was given, with meaningful looks “little pigs have big ears” ie be careful what you say!
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: gaffy on Sunday 17 June 18 01:42 BST (UK): At bedtime I remember being dandled on a knee to the singing of Morningtown Ride, every time I hear Judith Durham and the Seekers singing it, the memory floods back.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: jaybelnz on Sunday 17 June 18 02:58 BST (UK): That's one of my favourite songs gaffy! ;D ;D (you must be very young) 😜😜😜🌺
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: barryd on Sunday 17 June 18 04:10 BST (UK): Inappropriate old saying

"Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen.

Inappropriate then, inappropriate now, inappropriate always.
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: Guy Etchells on Sunday 17 June 18 07:06 BST (UK): Quote from: barryd on Sunday 17 June 18 04:10 BST (UK)
Inappropriate old saying

"Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen.

Inappropriate then, inappropriate now, inappropriate always.

No it is only inappropriate since the meaning has been corrupted; the original meaning was advice to pace yourself rather than showering too much attention or affection on someone.
For example not seeing a new girlfriend everyday but spending time with existing friends as well to allow the relationship time to develop.

Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Sunday 17 June 18 16:19 BST (UK): Apparently my very inappropriate childhood lullaby was.....
"The runaway train went down the track......"
Whilst wedged under my Mum's arm!
-No wonder I have trouble sleeping!!
TY
Title: Re: Appropriate or inappropriate old sayings
Post by: gaffy on Sunday 17 June 18 16:27 BST (UK): Quote from: jaybelnz on Sunday 17 June 18 02:58 BST (UK)

That's one of my favourite songs gaffy! ;D ;D (you must be very young) 😜😜😜🌺

I'm now at that age where I take a year off at every birthday lol.

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