RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: emjsw on Monday 28 May 18 16:01 BST (UK)
-
Hi there,
I just wondered if any one can help me with this mystery please?
The quest for George's family began when I discovered his existance on my 3rd great grandmother's wedding certificate. Louisa Palmer married Isaac Myers in 1879 in Wednesbury, fathers are George Palmer and Isaac Myers, both confectioners.
I looked for census records for a George with a daughter called Louisa and found the 1871 census (Piece 2982, folio 20,pg33), Father George, mother Harriet. I then looked for a George and Harriet getting married and found George marrying a Harriet Rogers, July 1857, Nottingham. I then used the mdn Rogers to find Louisa's birth :1864 M Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 238. George was born in Bunny, Nottinghamshire.
I have the 1861 (circus performer) , 71 (confectioner) , 81 and 91 census returns for George and Harriet.
I think I am certain I have the right George, I wondered if any one might be able to tell me George's father's name from his marriage certificate please?
In the 1951 census piece 2077, folio 171,pg 16,there is a George born to a John and Ann in 1838, bunny Nottinghamshire. It could be him. In GRO he is listed but the mdn is not. It is possible the mother's maiden name was Haynes as his later siblings are listed with this name on GRO.
Now here is the odd bit, in 1840 there is a George Hanson Palmer born 1840 in Bunny, Nottinghamshire. He is the son of John and Jane and on ancestry people give her the surname Haynes. All of their children are the same as John and Ann's apart from their middle names. They all go to America in abt 1858,including George Hanson who married a Sarah so he can't be my George BUT the order and dob and names of siblings are very similar +/-2yrs!!!
As many of you have far more experience than me I would really appreciate what thoughts and suggestions you may have about this please.
Best wishes Emma :)
-
I think I am certain I have the right George, I wondered if any one might be able to tell me George's father's name from his marriage certificate please?
You would have to order the marriage certificate to view fathers details - if any. If he was illegitimate there may be no father listed.
In GRO he is listed but the mdn is not.
That would indicate he was illegitimate BUT if you think his mothers name was Haynes then his birth could be registered under that surname not Palmer.
-
I think I am certain I have the right George, I wondered if any one might be able to tell me George's father's name from his marriage certificate please?
You would have to order the marriage certificate to view fathers details - if any. If he was illegitimate there may be no father listed.
Hello, thank you very much. I will save up to order the certificate as it would be useful. I just wondered if it might also be in a parish register, I tried freereg but no joy :( thank you for getting back to me. All the best :)
-
I can’t see this George Hanson Palmer you refer to - what is the source for him please?
-
You say that George Palmer’s 1838 birth is shown in the GRO index without a mother’s maiden name, but I am not seeing it at all. Registration district for Bunny should be Basford.
-
Hi all the 1840 birth could be the George Harwood Palmer In Bunny parents John /Jane, and also a possible George Palmer 19th February 1838 St Mary Nottingham Mother Elizabeth abode Brook Street.
Just a couple of suggestions!
Keyboard86
-
I can’t see this George Hanson Palmer you refer to - what is the source for him please?
I am really sorry I got the middle name wrong it is George Harwood Palmer, Christened Bunny, Nottinghamshire 1840 may 21st., to John and Jane. England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 from the family search website. It also came up as a hint on ancestry. Co. UK.
Hope that helps?
-
Unfortunately we don’t know how old George Harwood Palmer was at the time of his 1840 baptism. Can’t see a birth registration, so perhaps he was born before civil registration began on 1 July 1837.
-
Unfortunately we don’t know how old George Harwood Palmer was at the time of his 1840 baptism. Can’t see a birth registration, so perhaps he was born before civil registration began on 1 July 1837.
Thanks for looking. On the New York State census 1875 it has his b as 1840 but he could have been born before this as you mention. It could also be that although his middle name was Harwood when he was christened he was registered as only George Palmer?
-
Unfortunately we don’t know how old George Harwood Palmer was at the time of his 1840 baptism. Can’t see a birth registration, so perhaps he was born before civil registration began on 1 July 1837.
Thanks for looking. On the New York State census 1875 it has his b as 1840 but he could have been born before this as you mention. It could also be that although his middle name was Harwood when he was christened he was registered as only George Palmer?
I can’t see any George Palmer birth registration at all in Basford district 1837-1841.
-
Hi all the 1840 birth could be the George Harwood Palmer In Bunny parents John /Jane, and also a possible George Palmer 19th February 1838 St Mary Nottingham Mother Elizabeth abode Brook Street.
Just a couple of suggestions!
Keyboard86
Hi there, lovely, thanks so much for the suggestions, I will take a look.
-
Going back a step, why are we looking for a George born in Bunny at all?
The George who married Harriet and was the father of Louisa is as follows:
1861: Aged 22, circus performer, born Nottingham
1871: Aged 32, confectioner, born Nottingham
1881: Aged 44, confectioner, born Nottingham
1891: Aged 52, photographer, born Nottingham
Is there any link to Bunny at all? I suggest the illegitimate birth (mother Elizabeth) in Nottingham - mother Elizabeth - is the lead I would be prioritising.
-
You say that George Palmer’s 1838 birth is shown in the GRO index without a mother’s maiden name, but I am not seeing it at all. Registration district for Bunny should be Basford.
The only GRO birth I could find that might have been relevant was this = GRO Reference: 1838 M Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 15 Page 565 mdn not listed -. In 1861 George is a circus performer, maybe if his parents were he might not have been christened where he was registered?
-
Hi the George Palmer baptism 1838 St Mary, possibly not him, as it looks like Elizabeth Palmer marries a Henry Plackett 22nd June 1840 St Mary, in 1841 census the family are transcribed as PLACKITT, George being shown as George Plackitt aged 3
Census ref HO107/869/ 4/16 / 25
Keyboard86
-
Hi the George Palmer baptism 1838 St Mary, possibly not him, as it looks like Elizabeth Palmer marries a Henry Plackett 22nd June 1840 St Mary, in 1841 census the family are transcribed as PLACKITT, George being shown as George Plackitt aged 3
Census ref HO107/869/ 4/16 / 25
Keyboard86
Interesting - I wouldn’t write him off though; stepchildren often reverted to their birth surnames on marriage.
-
Hi the George Palmer baptism 1838 St Mary, possibly not him, as it looks like Elizabeth Palmer marries a Henry Plackett 22nd June 1840 St Mary, in 1841 census the family are transcribed as PLACKITT, George being shown as George Plackitt aged 3
Census ref HO107/869/ 4/16 / 25
Keyboard86
That is really interesting, thank you very much for the new lead :)
-
Which George Palmer do you have in New York in 1875 I can one who's a boss on the railroad ?
-
Which George Palmer do you have in New York in 1875 I can one who's a boss on the railroad ?
It is George h Palmer married to Sarah, b 1940 England, it came up as a hint and is in someone's tree on ancestry but I can't access the doc to see his profession and it isn't my George who is in the UK in 1861/71/81 so I didn't investigate further, it was more that the children born to John and Ann in 1851 census go to America but with John and Jane not Ann that got me looking. However I now think John and Ann are not my George's parents at all so I am at a loss to who his parents might be!!! Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
-
I know I have muddled my quote replies up a bit from the read through just now, but I just wanted to thank all of you for your help and to say I am extremely grateful for all of your time, effort and help.
I have discounted John and Ann as George's parents for the time being and need to get George's marriage certificate in the hope it will give me a father's name.
Best wishes Emma
-
Be aware that if he was illegitimate then any father’s name given on his marriage certificate may be unreliable - often in those circumstances a father was invented (or a stepfather’s or grandfather’s details entered) to avoid the stigma of illegitimacy.
Witness names can often be important clues.
Do come back to the thread when you have the certificate, in case we can help you take your research further.
-
Be aware that if he was illegitimate then any father’s name given on his marriage certificate may be unreliable - often in those circumstances a father was invented (or a stepfather’s or grandfather’s details entered) to avoid the stigma of illegitimacy.
Witness names can often be important clues.
Do come back to the thread when you have the certificate, in case we can help you take your research further.
Fantastic, thanks so much :)
-
Be aware that if he was illegitimate then any father’s name given on his marriage certificate may be unreliable - often in those circumstances a father was invented (or a stepfather’s or grandfather’s details entered) to avoid the stigma of illegitimacy.
Witness names can often be important clues.
Do come back to the thread when you have the certificate, in case we can help you take your research further.
Hi avm228,
I finally got the marriage certificate back, it says his father was Henry (I can't make out what his profession was but George and his family were involved in the circus/magic shows.
I can't find a George born to a Henry (on ancestry and familysearch), if they travelled with the circus he could have been born anywhere but selected Nottingham in the census records as perhaps this is where he remembered growing up?
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated as I am a bit lost now!
Best wishes,
Emma
-
Was Henry a cordwainer (shoemaker)?
-
Was Henry a cordwainer (shoemaker)?
Ahh that looks right, thank you. I can't find this Henry yet but knowing his proffession with help with the census searches so thanks very much.
-
Interesting :)
The George we were looking at earlier - born illegitimately to Elizabeth Palmer - did have a stepfather called Henry (Plackitt), as found by keyboard86 at reply #13.
However, Henry Plackitt's occupation in 1841 is FWK (Frame Work Knitter), so not a match for cordwainer.
-
Interesting that George claims to be of full age - 21 or over - on marriage (1 August 1857). If true, that makes his birthdate on or before 1 August 1836, so he'd be a couple of years older than most of his census entries would suggest.
-
Sadly, having a father named on a marriage certificate doesn't mean that it's true.
One of my ancestors named two different men on his two marriage certificates. :-\
-
George noted as full age on the marriage in August 1857, yet on the 1861 census is 22.
::)
-
Hi if I read the marriage certificate correctly, George was living in Tyler Street, the George Placket aged 13 was living there in 1851?
Census ref HO107/2132/733/5
Keyboard86
-
Hi again, could also be shown aged 14 visiting a William Flinders at 5, Carlton Row occ Labourer.
Census ref HO107/2132/505/33?
Keyboard86
-
Hi again, Harriett Rogers on marriage certificate was in Platt Street, in 1851 transcribed as PLAT Street is a Harriett Rogers aged 9 with parents Thomas occ Tailor/Sarah
Census ref HO107/2132/644/46
Keyboard86
-
Hi in 1851 census George Placket 13 was living at 11, Tyler Street, Nottingham, in 1861 a Mary Palmer 51? Widow b Castle Donnington was living there?
Census ref RG09/2462/7/7
Keyboard86
EDIT At 12, Tyler Street is:-
Henry Plackett 41 ( Hackett on FindMyPast ) occ Labourer
Bessie 39
Robert 12
Emma Stevenson 2 or 21?
Census ref RG09/2462/7/8
Believe Henry dies March qtr 1864 Nottingham aged 45
Then we have 1871:-
Elizabeth Plackett 50 Widow
Robert 23 Son
Mary Jessop 70 Mother
Emma Plackett 13 Grandaughter?
RG10/3521/10/11
Keyboard86
-
Interesting :)
The George we were looking at earlier - born illegitimately to Elizabeth Palmer - did have a stepfather called Henry (Plackitt), as found by keyboard86 at reply #13.
However, Henry Plackitt's occupation in 1841 is FWK (Frame Work Knitter), so not a match for cordwainer.
That is interesting and I have found on other relative's marriage certificates that if they were illegitimate their step father's surname is often changed to match their own even if they are registered on census records under their step father's surname so it is certainly plausible.
I have also found people changing professions a few times too like confectioner, beer house keeper, pawn dealer etc so maybe he was just doing something else???
Thanks for your reply :)
-
Interesting that George claims to be of full age - 21 or over - on marriage (1 August 1857). If true, that makes his birthdate on or before 1 August 1836, so he'd be a couple of years older than most of his census entries would suggest.
That is interesting, as the census records are fairly consistent I am wondering if they fibbed when they got married about their ages (if that was easy to do in those days). Their first registered birth of a child was in 1860 so it is not likely they got married as a matter of urgency although perhaps she was expecting and sadly they lost it or maybe they were so in love they couldn't wait? I can't think of any other reason for it?!
-
Sadly, having a father named on a marriage certificate doesn't mean that it's true.
One of my ancestors named two different men on his two marriage certificates. :-\
That is true. I have found the same with one of my relatives, Isaac Myers, on one certificate his father is called Benjamin and on the other Isaac although he did say both were sealing wax makers which is quite specific but it does throw a spanner in the works!
-
George noted as full age on the marriage in August 1857, yet on the 1861 census is 22.
::)
That is interesting isn't it, his age on the census records remain consistent but he seems to have fibbed a bit on his marriage licence!!!
-
Hi if I read the marriage certificate correctly, George was living in Tyler Street, the George Placket aged 13 was living there in 1851?
Census ref HO107/2132/733/5
Keyboard86
Hi there,
Thank you for looking that up, I would not have made that connection and it is adding to the evidence that George Palmer was George Plackitt (another connection I would not have made). Thank you for your help
-
Hi again, could also be shown aged 14 visiting a William Flinders at 5, Carlton Row occ Labourer.
Census ref HO107/2132/505/33?
Keyboard86
Thank you, I hadn't found this census record before, I find it hard to get out of my 21st century brain sometimes and remember that many children were workers and moved around on their own. Unfortunately I can't find the census record (mostly because I don't know how to search with William Flinder's name also to help pick it out). Did you notice where this George was born please?
-
Hi again, Harriett Rogers on marriage certificate was in Platt Street, in 1851 transcribed as PLAT Street is a Harriett Rogers aged 9 with parents Thomas occ Tailor/Sarah
Census ref HO107/2132/644/46
Keyboard86
Hi there,
I love all this new information that you are finding and am quite in awe at how you are putting things together, I have so many more avenues to search, thank you very much. I wonder if George met Harriett through their fathers, both being in the textile trade. I guess I will never know. It is great to have the mothers name as this is my Dad's mum's side of the family, he had his mitochondrial DNA tested which shows 32% Ashkenazi Jewish DNA and I am hoping to get some clues to this from his female line. Now I know Thomas was with Sarah I can trace the marriage. Mind you this mitochondrial information could be 10,000 years old so I am not likely to find a paper trail!
Best wishes, Em
-
Hi in 1851 census George Placket 13 was living at 11, Tyler Street, Nottingham, in 1861 a Mary Palmer 51? Widow b Castle Donnington was living there?
Census ref RG09/2462/7/7
Keyboard86
EDIT At 12, Tyler Street is:-
Henry Plackett 41 ( Hackett on FindMyPast ) occ Labourer
Bessie 39
Robert 12
Emma Stevenson 2 or 21?
Census ref RG09/2462/7/8
Believe Henry dies March qtr 1864 Nottingham aged 45
Then we have 1871:-
Elizabeth Plackett 50 Widow
Robert 23 Son
Mary Jessop 70 Mother
Emma Plackett 13 Grandaughter?
RG10/3521/10/11
Keyboard86
Wow this is great, thank you. I will try and find out more about George's mum Elizabeth, it is possible she was a Jessop I guess and perhaps she had a sister called Mary who was with George? Finding him with another Palmer could be coincidence but I feel it adds even more evidence that the Georges are the same and explains so man things. All of these connections are amazing, thank you
-
Hi again, could also be shown aged 14 visiting a William Flinders at 5, Carlton Row occ Labourer.
Census ref HO107/2132/505/33?
Keyboard86
Thank you, I hadn't found this census record before, I find it hard to get out of my 21st century brain sometimes and remember that many children were workers and moved around on their own. Unfortunately I can't find the census record (mostly because I don't know how to search with William Flinder's name also to help pick it out). Did you notice where this George was born please?
George, was George Plackett aged 14 born Nottingham, William Flinders was 71 occ Coal Dealer wife Elizabeth 63, George could have been just a visiting friend of the son James Flinders 15 son?? If so he in 1851 is shown on two census returns.
Keyboard86
PS the 1861 Mary Palmer age I would check out as could be 58 on original, who then possibly is the Mary Jessop in 1871??
-
Hi again, could also be shown aged 14 visiting a William Flinders at 5, Carlton Row occ Labourer.
Census ref HO107/2132/505/33?
Keyboard86
Thank you, I hadn't found this census record before, I find it hard to get out of my 21st century brain sometimes and remember that many children were workers and moved around on their own. Unfortunately I can't find the census record (mostly because I don't know how to search with William Flinder's name also to help pick it out). Did you notice where this George was born please?
George, was George Plackett aged 14 born Nottingham, William Flinders was 71 occ Coal Dealer wife Elizabeth 63, George could have been just a visiting friend of the son James Flinders 15 son?? If so he in 1851 is shown on two census returns.
Keyboard86
PS the 1861 Mary Palmer age I would check out as could be 58 on original, who then possibly is the Mary Jessop in 1871??
Ahh OK hadn't thought of that, I will look out for this, thanks ever so much for the pointer and further detail re 1851 :)
-
Hi still looking at this thread for you, it is the Robert Plackett b c 1847 Nottingham that puzzles me ( at least his birth ) ,Their is a death March qtr 1847 Nottingham aged 1 and the one I have followed 1907 Nottingham aged 60
Keyboard86
-
Hi still looking at this thread for you, it is the Robert Plackett b c 1847 Nottingham that puzzles me ( at least his birth ) ,Their is a death March qtr 1847 Nottingham aged 1 and the one I have followed 1907 Nottingham aged 60
Keyboard86
Hi Keyboard86,
Thank you very much for continuing to look into this. I have been looking at him too and am currently testing the following :
1851
Henry Placket 35
Elizabeth Placket 30
George Placket 13
Elizabeth Placket 7
Robert Placket 3
Piece 2132
Folio 733
Page number 5
1861
Henry Plackett
Bessy Plackett
Robert Plackett
Emma Stevenson
Piece 2462
Folio 7
Page number 8
1871
Elizabeth Plackett 50
Mary Jessop 70
Robert Plackett 23
Emma Plackett 13
Caroline Stacey 38
Laura Davis 14
Piece 3521
Folio 10
Page number 11
1881 - Possible
Robert Plackett 32
Elizabeth Plackett 30
Elizabeth Plackett 14 (perhaps adopted as I can find nothing on GRO).
Piece 3359
Folio 116
Page number 17
1891 - Possible
Robt Plackett 43
Elizth Plackett 43
Elizth Plackett 24
Piece 2703
Folio 121
1901 - Possible
Robert Plackett 52
Elizabeth Plackett 50
Elizabeth Plackett 33
Piece 3169
Folio 122
Page number 22
Household schedule number 151
But so far no death
I am having a similar problem placing members of my Myers family in another post!!! I wish I could go back in time and just ask them!!!
Thanks again for your help.
-
Hi again, if you use Ancestry I believe his death is shown Robert Placett 1907
The Emma Stevenson/Emma Plackett possibly married a Richard Hollingworth/Hollingsworth 8th December 1867 St Peters, Nottinghamshire.
1871 census RG10/3512/38/33
Keyboard86
-
Hi again, if you use Ancestry I believe his death is shown Robert Placett 1907
The Emma Stevenson/Emma Plackett possibly married a Richard Hollingworth/Hollingsworth 8th December 1867 St Peters, Nottinghamshire.
1871 census RG10/3512/38/33
Keyboard86
Wow, that is fantastic thanks so much for your help :)
-
Baptisms Nottingham St Mary
19 Feb 1838 George son of Elizabeth Palmer Brook Street
10 June 1839 Jane dau of Elizabeth Palmer Wood Court
2 July 1848 Robert son of Henry & Elizabeth Plackett abode Tyler Street father a labourer
2 July 1848 Elizabeth dau of Henry & Elizabeth Plackett - same details as Robert.
Marriage Nottingham St Mary
22 June 1840 Henry Plackett and Elizabeth Palmer.
Robert Plackett cordwainer and wife Elizabeth baptised 10 children at St Mary. Henry 14 June 1818 abode King Street.
Susannah 1817. Sarah 1820. Joseph 1822, Susannah 1823.William 1825. John 1827, Robert 1829, Elizabeth 1831, Robert 1833.
Marriage Nottingham St Mary
4 Feb 1816 Robert Plackett and Elizabeth Cuxton.
-
Baptisms Nottingham St Mary
19 Feb 1838 George son of Elizabeth Palmer Brook Street
10 June 1839 Jane dau of Elizabeth Palmer Wood Court
2 July 1848 Robert son of Henry & Elizabeth Plackett abode Tyler Street father a labourer
2 July 1848 Elizabeth dau of Henry & Elizabeth Plackett - same details as Robert.
Marriage Nottingham St Mary
22 June 1840 Henry Plackett and Elizabeth Palmer.
Robert Plackett cordwainer and wife Elizabeth baptised 10 children at St Mary. Henry 14 June 1818 abode King Street.
Susannah 1817. Sarah 1820. Joseph 1822, Susannah 1823.William 1825. John 1827, Robert 1829, Elizabeth 1831, Robert 1833.
Marriage Nottingham St Mary
4 Feb 1816 Robert Plackett and Elizabeth Cuxton.
Hi there,
This is brilliant, thank you so much for taking the time to find all of this out and for letting me know.
Much appreciated.
Best wishes Emma
-
;)
-
Hi still looking at this thread for you, it is the Robert Plackett b c 1847 Nottingham that puzzles me ( at least his birth ) ,Their is a death March qtr 1847 Nottingham aged 1 and the one I have followed 1907 Nottingham aged 60
Keyboard86
Great results found, so who were the parents of the Robert Plackett who on GRO index dies March qtr 1847 aged 1?
OK found his baptism:-
Robert Placket 1st February 1846 St Paul, Nottingham Father Henry Mother Elizabeth address Tyler Street.
Keyboard86
-
Hi still looking at this thread for you, it is the Robert Plackett b c 1847 Nottingham that puzzles me ( at least his birth ) ,Their is a death March qtr 1847 Nottingham aged 1 and the one I have followed 1907 Nottingham aged 60
Keyboard86
Great results found, so who were the parents of the Robert Plackett who on GRO index dies March qtr 1847 aged 1?
OK found his baptism:-
Robert Placket 1st February 1846 St Paul, Nottingham Father Henry Mother Elizabeth address Tyler Street.
Keyboard86
Ah, thank you, so it looks like they possibly had 2 sons called Robert, one born 1846 who died 1847 and the other born in 1848? Thanks so much for your time investigating this. Best wishes Em
-
OK so who where the parents of the Emma Stevenson/Plackett ?
Keyboard86
-
OK so who where the parents of the Emma Stevenson/Plackett ?
And of course the Mary Jessop Mother to Elizabeth?
Keyboard86
-
OK so who where the parents of the Emma Stevenson/Plackett ?
And of course the Mary Jessop Mother to Elizabeth?
Keyboard86
I don't know, I am wondering if Emma was a granddaughter? I am not sure about the Mary Jessop connection either. The connection you made about the Mary Palmer at their address is really interesting but I haven't managed to get anywhere yet (I am not very experienced with this and ancestry hints have been very helpful did the census bits I posted). I would never have found them without your suggestions. I will continue looking. :)