RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: MacGrigor on Tuesday 29 May 18 23:47 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I've come across a bit of a snag.
My great-granddad served with three Middlesex battalions: the 18th, the 3/10th and the 4th. No direct transfer could be found. One member on here (using war diaries I think) said that the 3/10th was broken up on the 1st of February 1918, and that the 4th Battalion received 227 ORs (don't know what that stands for) on the 12th. However, various websites state that the 3/10th was disbanded on the 20th of February. Which is right? Was it being disbanded before the 20th which could still mean my great-grandad transferred on the 12th?
I'd appreciate any help!
Adam
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the 4th Battalion received 227 ORs (don't know what that stands for) on the 12th.
No idea about the disbanding, but I would suggest ORs stands for Other Ranks (i.e, not officers)
Philip
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Yes, that would make sense - and support the theory of a transfer of regular men, including my great-granddad, to the 4th from the 3/10th. Thanks!
However, it all hinges on the actual date the battalion was broken up. It may have been breaking up prior to the 20th, which was what the RootsChat member may have meant.
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Adam
It isn't as easy as that! While it had been decided that the battalion should be disbanded, in fact the plan was changed and on 20 February 1918 it was decided that the 3/10th Middlesex "should not be broken up but made into an Entrenching Battalion so accordingly on this date we became the 11th Entrenching Battalion under the orders of CE (Chief Engineer) 3rd Army and 17 Corps" - quote from the war diary. The diary doesn't mention movement of men in January or February so it is likely that he moved on after 20 February.
Howwever, I have the feeling that we should look at the sequence of units you have adduced for your ggrandfather. You don't have the service record (that would show the dates) so to check the basics, could you give his number and name (I didn't see your related thread.)
MaxD
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He was Lance Corporal Alexander G. McGregor, service number PW/5040. The related thread is here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=775695.0
The member found his three battalions. These were the 18th (1st Public Works) Battalion, and then two fighting battalions, the 3/10th and the 4th.
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I'd forgotten I had contributed a little to the other thread.
Jim1 is absolutely correct (he always is) with the sequence of battalions. However, what none of us can say is when he transferred from one battalion to another. The only sure dates are:
He went to France after the start of 1916 (his medals do not include the 1914 or 1914-1915 Star which means no overseas service before end 1915).
He can only have been in 3/10th between 1 Jun 1917 and 20 Feb 1918 (its dates in France) although he may have stayed on in 11th Entrenching Battalion for an indeterminate time if he was there at the end before being posted to the 4th Battalion (a draft of 47 men from somewhere joined the 4th on 24 March - could he have been one of them, perfectly possible).
jim1 has already looked at war diaries to see if there are entries in the 18th that show men going to 3/10th and found no evidence. He has also looked at the 4th and has found men arriving on Feb 12th 1918. I would venture to suggest these were not from 3/10th who themselves received a draft of 300 men on 8 February from 11 Battalion which was broken up in that month, they are more likely to have been from 11th also.
The situation really is that, without his service record, one can only say that your ggrandfather served in the 3 battalions in the order jim1 found for you in the medal roll but with no idea when (apart from not being able to be in 3/10th before 1 Jun 1917 or after 20 Feb 1918).
If you felt like cross checking yourself, each diary is downloadable for £3.50 from the National Archives or you can see them on Ancestry if you get the sub we've been recommending. Be aware though, as jim1 has said already, individual soldiers are rarely named in war diaries, the best to be hoped for would be an entry that say "x men to 3/10th" or "x men from 3/10th" but even then was he one of them - who knows?
MaxD
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353815 - 18th battalion
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352155 - 3/10th
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354085 - 4th
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Thanks for all of that MaxD. That's very helpful.
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My knowledge of Entrenching Battalions is limited to what I've read which is that they seem to have been quite short lived, the German Spring Offensive being the main reason.
By this time Brigades had been reduced from 4 Battalions to 3 which brought about the formation of the EB's in early 1918.
Weaknesses in the Army structure became apparent during the offensive & men from the EB's were quickly transferred to front line Battalions such as the 4/Mddx.
It's quite possible there was a short stint in the 11/EB that's gone unrecorded before going into the 4/Mddx. but as MaxD points out without a service record it's all guesswork educated or otherwise.
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Yes, I realise that. Thanks anyway jim1, you've given me plenty of information.
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On a different note, he shows up on the weekly casualty list for the 26th of November 1918. Why would he be listed then when the Armistice was signed on the 11th of November, more than two weeks before the list? Presumably if it was weekly then it couldn't have been a delayed announcement.
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Communication in the pre Facebook era was not as quick as today!!
The 26 November is the date it was published.
The list was issued by the War Office on 22 November.
The fact that it is called a weekly list doesn't mean that the casualties listed were only suffered during the previous week.
You have seen how many men are named on just one list, it takes a considerable time to collate the names from across the army.
And no you can't tell exactly when a man was wounded from the list.
When the armistice was signed has no bearing at all on this.
MaxD
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That makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up.
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I’ve made a discovery! I found the list of Middlesex Regiment soldiers which features battalions served in etc. Three people after Alexander, and two service numbers, is Private Leonard Beagles. His discharge papers reveal that he enlisted on the 9th of December 1915. Presumably Alexander would have enlisted before him, and was therefore not conscripted but volunteered.
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Possible but not conclusive I'm afraid. Often spare numbers were used in an ad hoc manner. He could have gone in under the Derby scheme, jumped before being pushed you might say.
If you can find other similar numbers (the more the better) all with a similar attestation date adds to the possibility.
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Oh :( that’s a shame. I looked at most of the surrounding numbers but only medal indexes survived for them.
On the medal roll listing all the men with their serial numbers, in the column titled ‘theatres of war in which served’ it says ‘to’ with everyone’s ranks listed and ‘from’, which has a mix of noughts and crosses. Some then have ticks next to the noughts. Seeing as Private Beagles was discharged early (and has a cross) could this have something to do with being medically discharged?
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Beagles was discharged on 13 May 1918 with a disability caused by wounds with a Silver War Badge, his entry has SWB pencilled against it. X appears with others without a SWB.
The pencil notes look as if they had a significance to the clerks checking some aspect of the issue /engraving of the medals, I suggest they have no relevance to the search for your man's enlistment date.
For info, Derby Scheme explained here: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/
MaxD
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Thanks Max! I didn’t think they were connected to enlistment; on the contrary, I thought they might be connected to discharge.
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Understood - no to that also!
MaxD
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I called my great-uncle today, who said that his dad was also present at the Battle of Passchendaele. Can anyone see where the 18th and 3/10th battalions where during this time? It might help chronologically in determining when he was with which battalion.
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Not that simple. There were two Battles of Passchendaele (October and October/November) (ie encounters later given those names) but a number of battles between July and November 1917 before and after are usually named as "part of the Battle of Passchendaele"
3/10th Bn joined 4th Division in August and took part in the battle of Polygon Wood in late September and subsequent phases including 1st Passchendaele.
18th Battalion in 33rd Division was engaged in the Battle of the Menin Road Ridge and Polygon Wood in September/early October. Significantly, after Polygon Wood, 33 Div had suffered so many casualties that they were withdrawn
The overlap when both battalions could be said to have been at the battle of Passchendaele at the same time would be Polygon Wood. If the reference is specifically to 1st Passchendaele or 2nd Passchendaele then that would mean 3/10th Battalion.
On balance I'd say that the reference is to 3/10th Battalion.
MaxD
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Thanks Max!
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He also said about a ‘commendation’ following disabling a German machine gun while on a patrol. Could this be a reference to being mentioned in despatches? I’m sure someone on here said that he wasn’t mentioned but I can’t remember for sure.
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There were commendations made by the General Officer Commanding the Division or the Brigade which were basically one level below an MID. There is no sign of an MID in the London Gazette or elsewhere, a GOC's commendation was not published outside the formation.
MaxD
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Thanks Max! That clears that up.