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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: David Van Coolwijk on Wednesday 30 May 18 20:43 BST (UK)
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Currently I am researching the crash of Halifax bomber JB803 KN-G, which crashed in my hometown Muiden, the Netherlands.
We are erecting a monument in honour of the crew of this Halifax.
I am looking for information about William Robert Louth of Hayes Middlesex and relatives, also we are looking for a photo of him. He is the only crewmember still missing. The other 6 died when the Halifax crashed and were buried in Muiden.
Why am I looking for information and relatives? There is a good chance we have traced where Louth is buried.
The day after the crash a wounded RAF airman was found near Muiden. He was unconscious and died on may 13th without ever waking up. He had no means of identification on his body. He was buried in a grave as an unknown airman of the RAF. I have tried several museums and archives, but without luck. They adviced me to use social media.
Is there anyone who can help me out? Are there any relatives still alive? An unconfirmed source said he had been married. But I have not been able to find anything on that. He was born 31 st October 1920. I am also not sure if he was born in Hayes, Middlesex
I have tried the Yorkshire Airmuseum, www.cwgc.org and several others, but without result.
Thank you in advance!
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The CWGC has him as being killed 1 May 1943 but as you say no family mentioned.
I can't see a birth registration of a William R(obert) Louth on FreeBMD in the Dec 1/4 of 1920 which would have given his mother's maiden name.
You could apply to the MoD for his service record but they charge 30 pounds. You wouldn't need a copy of his death certificate as he is on the CWGC site.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records
There is a William R Louth born 31 Oct 1920 on the 1939 register on ancestry (Findmypast will have it too) occupation Clerk, Public Works but he is living with a McCormack family in the Hayes and Harlington U.D., Middlesex, - no other Louths in the household so if he did marry it was after 1939
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A warm welcome to Rootschat, and huge thanks to you and the people of Muiden.
Rootschatters love a challenge!
There are baptisms between 1915 and 1926 in Middlesex for
LOUTH Edwin (Brentford 1918) mmn MORRIS
LOWETH Pauline (Fulham 1919) mmn MOORE
LOWTH Victor (Islington 1919) mmn GODWIN
LOWTHE Patricia (Brentford 1920) mmn HANNON
LOUTH William T (Mile End 1920) mmn MITCHELL
LOWETH Sidney (Fulham 1920) mmn MOORE
LOWTH Albert ((Kingston 1921) mmn WETHERFIELD
LOUTH George (Barnet 1921) mmn SMITH
LOUTH Lilian (Mile End 1922) mmn MITCHELL
LOWTH William A (Edmonton 1923) mmn SMALL
LOWTH Mary (Brentford 1925) mmn STOCKTON
LOWETH Irene (Fulham 1926) mmn MOORE
LOWTH Joyce (Hendon 1926) mmn TEW
- so nothing remotely resembling William (or an obvious family for him).
The only candidate I could find on FreeBMD in England/Wales is:
LOWTH William, Dec qtr 1920 Blandford (Dorset) vol 5a p370 mmn HULL
It would be very useful to find him on the 1939 register or a death before 1939.
(UPDATE - I can't see a death 1920-1939 matching a birth c1920)
Philip
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We have been able to find an address he was registered at in 1939: 75 Nield Road Hayes - occupation Clerk Public Works. The house was registered to a: Peter McCornmick
Apparently he rented a room or something, my guess is that Louth wasn't born in Hayes...
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The only candidate I could find on FreeBMD in England/Wales is:
LOWTH William, Dec qtr 1920 Blandford (Dorset) vol 5a p370 mmn HULL
It would be very useful to find him on the 1939 register or a death before 1939.
(UPDATE - I can't see a death 1920-1939 matching a birth c1920)
The Blandford birth would tie in with:
Marriage Dec qtr 1919 Blandford vol 5a p688 on same page William LOWTH and Charlotte D HULL
Birth Mar qtr 1900 Blandford vol 5a p221 HULL Charlotte Daisy, mmn POORE
Philip
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Interesting..... Maybe his name was misspelled. I recall that in a record of him his name was spelled Lough. This lad is very mysterious.
I think we can safely say that he is not from Haye Middelsex then, at least not born there.
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There is a probate record for William Lowth (husband of Charlotte) stating that he died 10 Queens Crescent, Botwell Lane, HAYES on 21st July 1935. Administration at BLANDFORD to Charlotte Daisy Lowth, widow.
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Nield Road, where William (junior) was living in 1939 is also off Botwell Lane.
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There is a probate record for William Lowth (husband of Charlotte) stating that he died 10 Queens Crescent, Botwell Lane, HAYES on 21st July 1935. Administration at BLANDFORD to Charlotte Daisy Lowth, widow.
What a great find! That provides a link between Blandford and Hayes.
Jool's link of Nield Road to Botwell Lane is another powerful link.
crisane and my cousin and fellow Rootschatter ayashi have not found another match in 1939 for William born 1920.
For information, and in respectful tribute:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=51988
Philip
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It appears that widow Charlotte Daisy Lowth went on to marry Patrick Walshe in June Q 1937 Uxbridge 3a 254 (Hayes is in Uxbridge registration district)
Added:
Two years later Charlotte Walshe and possibly her new husband (blacked out) are living in BLANDFORD, in the same household are people with the surname Hull and Poore (surnames that Philip has already mentioned).
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There are two other births with the surname Lowth mmn Hull in Blandford
A son in 1928 and another son in 1932. I can't give the names as they may still be living but you can find them on FreeBMD
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Wow, thank you! Now we're getting somewhere! Hopefully this will help finding relatives!
As for the rest of the crew, I am having the same problems.
With another aircrew I am researching I had better luck! I found 1 and he knew 3 others.
So I hope that if I can find atleast 1 familymember who knows more....
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The son born 1932 is on the 1939 register with a Hull family Ernest G W and Ida Ellen at the Langton Arms in Blandford.
The second son Peter J Lowth died June 1/4 1963 age 34 registration district Westminster surname Louth.
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In June Q 1938 Uxbridge 3a 246 there is the birth of female child Walshe mmn Hull. I will not give her name as she may well still be living (hopefully). She would be half sister to your William Lowth. FreeBMD.
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Very, very, very nice.... Now I have to find a legal way to contact them....
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This looks like the remaining son's death
Kevin John Louth
Birth day 10 Jan 1932
Died Dec 1/4 1994
District Weymouth District number 4331B
Register number B7D Entry number 128
County Dorset
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It appears that widow Charlotte Daisy Lowth went on to marry Patrick Walshe in June Q 1937 Uxbridge 3a 254 (Hayes is in Uxbridge registration district)
Added:
Two years later Charlotte and her new husband are living in BLANDFORD, in the same household are people with the surname Hull and Poore (surnames that Philip has already mentioned).
On the 1937 electoral roll there is:
6, The Golden Cross, Hayes, Middlesex
Charlotte Daisy LOUTH
Anthony MACCARIO
Patrick WALSH
So, with some brilliant teamwork we have a timeline:
1900 - Daisy HULL born in Blandford (mmn POORE)
1919 - William LOWTH married Daisy HULL in Blandford, Dorset
1920 - William LOWTH junior born Blandford
1928 - Peter J LOWTH born in Blandford (died 1963)
1932 - Kevin John LOWTH born in Blandford (died 1994)
c1932-35 - the LOWTH family moved to Hayes, Middlesex
1935 - death of William LOWTH senior in Hayes
1937 - widow Daisy married Patrick WALSH
1938 - daughter WALSH born
1939 - Charlotte and Patrick WALSH are in Blandford with HULL/POORE relatives
1939 - William junior has remained in Hayes.
What a beautiful piece of research - and for a very good cause!
Philip
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Truly amazing work!!! I have posted the timeline on the Hayes history facebook page. Hopefully some relative sees that.....
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As for the rest of the crew, I am having the same problems.
Could I suggest that you start a new thread, perhaps with the title: Looking for relatives of Hampden bomber crew.
Add the link to the page https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=51988 which names the crew.
Add a link to this this thread.
Crew members HANNAM and SCARFF might be easier to track because their surnames are rarer, but we'll have a good try to find them all!
Philip
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Going back to where William Robert Louth's brother is living with Ernest G Hull and his wife Ida Ellen. Ernest married Ida E Rideout June 1/4 1931 Blandford reg dist.
Ernest was born 3 july 1908 and Ida 26 Feb 1911.
I can only see two births for possible children of Ernest and Ida and they are a dau in 1945 Blandford and another daughter in March 1/4 1947. This seems a long time after Ernest and Ida's marrriage but it does sometimes happen.
Ernest George W birth reg Sept 1/4 1908 Blandford
Ernest and Charlotte have a sister Olive Bessie registered 1903 Blandford
It looks as if Ernest, Charlotte and Bessie were the only children to Ernest and Ida
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Following lines forward (from information on FreeBMD up to 1983) https://www.freebmd.org.uk/:
William LOWTH born 1920, killed in action 1 May 1943
possible marriage Sep qtr 1939 Leicester vol 7a p857 to HUNTER, but no children found for this marriage
No other marriage found for William or William R
Presumed no descendants
Peter J LOWTH
born Dec qtr 1928 Blandford vol 5a p303
died Jun qtr 1963 Westminster vol 5c p352 age 34
possible marriage Dec qtr 1951 Ilford vol 5a p656 to SHEA
possible LOWTH/SHEA (2 sons):
Mar qtr 1953 Weymouth vol 6a p781a
Jun qtr 1958 Sidcup vol 5b p118
Kevin John LOWTH
born Mar qtr 1932 Blandford (10 Jan 1932)
Died Dec qtr 1994 Weymouth 4331B/B7D/128
probable marriage Jun qtr 1959 Sturminster (Dorset) to DOWNTON
LOWTH/DOWNTON (3 sons, 1 daughter):
Dec qtr 1959 Wincanton vol 7c p354
Sep qtr 1961 Wincanton vol 7c p432
Dec qtr 1962 Wincanton vol 7c p409 (possibly married Sep qtr 1983 Poole vol 23 p587 to TURNBULL)
Sep qtr 1968 Wincanton vol 7c p708
(half-sister) WALSHE
born Jun qtr 1938 Uxbridge vol 3a p249
married Dec qtr 1959 Poole vol 7c p1455 to EXTANCE
EXTANCE/WALSHE (3 daughters):
Dec qtr 1960 Wincanton vol 7c p420
Dec qtr 1962 Wincanton vol 7c p413
Mar qtr 1968 Wincanton vol 7c p732
Given the rarity of the surname EXTANCE, I would be inclined to have a look on FreeBMD to get the full names, then consider a site like Facebook to see if there are any on there.
Alternatively http://www.thedorsetpage.com/genealogy/names/names_e.htm#Extance has a contact name - click on it to send an e-mail.
Good hunting.
Philip
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Great work Philip :D
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Great work Philip :D
Great teamwork all of us :) :) :)
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A quick start on the rest of the crew (killed in action 1 May 1943):
https://www.tracesofwar.com/sights/2052/Commonwealth-War-Graves-Muiden.htm names the crew graves: (I have added ages given on the CWGC website in blue)
Sergeant (Pilot), Gordon Watson, RAF, 1383608 (age not shown)
Sergeant (Flt. Engr.) Ian Douglas Crawford, RAF, 634710 (age 21)
Sergeant (Nav./Air Bomber) Leon Hannam, RAF, 1383305 age 22
Flying Officer (Nav.) Arthur Edward Parsons, RCAF, J/11636 (age 27)
Flight Sergeant (Air Gnr.) Thomas Deuel Scarff, RCAF, R/95040 (age 23)
Sergeant (Air Gnr.) Raymond Shepherd, RAF, 929961 (age 21)
As per David Van Coolwijk's original post, (and the research below) the missing crew member Sergeant (Radio Operator) W.R. Louth 1198324 has a likely grave and we believe we have identified his siblings and their descendants with enough proof and information to make contact.
Arthur Edward PARSONS and Thomas Deuel SCARFF (the two in the RCAF) could have been Canadian, or eager Americans joining up before the USA entered the war in 1941, or Irish (as the Irish Republic was neutral)
Gordon WATSON
without an age or next of kin, he could be difficult to trace
Ian Douglas CRAWFORD
no matching birth on FreeBMD in England/Wales
no definite matches on FamilySearch
Could he be Scottish?
Leon HANNAM
born Dec qtr 1920 Islington vol 1b p359, mmn MANNOCH
Raymond SHEPHERD possible births:
Jun qtr 1921 Middlesbro' vol 9d p1175 mmn SWALES
Sep qtr 1921 St Thomas, Devon vol 5b p59 mmn TILLEY (registered as Raymond L)
Dec qtr 1921 West Bromwich vol 6b p1652 mmn GREGORY
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Name Thomas Deuel Scarff
Birth Place Winnipeg Man
Residence Place Winnipeg Man
Service Number: R95040
Regiment Royal Canadian Air Force
Rank Flight Sergeant
Next of Kin Father - Charles Henery Scarff
Thomas' service files are on ancestry and even though I no longer have a sub I can access them. there are quite a few pages. He was single and born 1 Dec 1919 His next of kin to be informed of a casualty were his uncle and aunt Mr and Mrs V Scarff 28A Ty?dall rd, London SE15
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Charles Henry Scarff, father of Thomas was born England. Mother's maiden name Daisy Kemp Nicholls also born England.
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Name Thomas Deuel Scarff
Birth Place Winnipeg Man
Residence Place Winnipeg Man
Service Number: R95040
Regiment Royal Canadian Air Force
Rank Flight Sergeant
Next of Kin Father - Charles Henery Scarff
Thomas' service files are on ancestry and even though I no longer have a sub I can access them. there are quite a few pages. He was single and born 1 Dec 1919 His next of kin to be informed of a casualty were his uncle and aunt Mr and Mrs V Scarff 28A Ty?dall rd, London SE15
I vaguely remember searching for Manitoba births and getting nowhere. I have a horrible suspicion they may have a restriction (100 year rule, or some such)
Maybe Mr & Mrs V SCARFF are on the 1939 register - I didn't spot a man with initial V on FreeBMD marriages from 1915-1940. I'll see if I can track him with Charles Henry's mmn.
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Maybe Mr & Mrs V SCARFF are on the 1939 register - I didn't spot a man with initial V on FreeBMD marriages from 1915-1940. I'll see if I can track him with Charles Henry's mmn.
Possible male births:
SCARFF Thomas Daniel Sep qtr 1875 vol 1d p485 Lambeth mmn CANDLER
SCARFF Ernest Frank Jun qtr 1878 Lambeth vol 1d p501 mmn CANDLER
SCARFF William Daniel Dec qtr 1882 Lambeth vol 1d p473 mmn CANDLER
SCARFF John Edward Dec qtr 1883 Lambeth vol 1d p487 mmn CANDLER
SCARFF Charles Henry Jun qtr 1886 Lambeth vol 1d p476 mmn CANDLER
but no males with initial V
marriage:
Dec qtr 1874 Poplar vol 1c p1327 - 4 on page including Thomas SCARFF and Addelet CANDLER
I can't find a trace of George marrying Daisy in England/Wales.
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Following lines forward (from information on FreeBMD up to 1983) https://www.freebmd.org.uk/:
William LOWTH born 1920, killed in action 1 May 1943
possible marriage Sep qtr 1939 Leicester vol 7a p857 to HUNTER, but no children found for this marriage
No other marriage found for William or William R
Presumed no descendants
Good hunting.
Philip
A note of caution here....the 1920 birth came from a William R Louth living in Hayes; the 1939 marriage in Leicestershire is possibly the Wiliam R Louth who was born 1913.
No age is shown on WR Louth's entry on CWGC.
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Relatives of Leon HANNAM
born Dec qtr 1920 Islington vol 1b p359, mmn MANNOCH
(sister) born Dec qtr 1928 Islington vol 1b p392 mmn MANNOCH
probable marriage:
Mar qtr 1957 Islington vol 5c p2481 to POLLINTINE
No births or deaths on FreeBMD from 1957 to 1983.
192.com has (possibly) her in 2002 in Radlett, Hertfordshire
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William LOWTH born 1920, killed in action 1 May 1943
possible marriage Sep qtr 1939 Leicester vol 7a p857 to HUNTER, but no children found for this marriage
No other marriage found for William or William R
Presumed no descendants
A note of caution here....the 1920 birth came from a William R Louth living in Hayes; the 1939 marriage in Leicestershire is possibly the Wiliam R Louth who was born 1913.
I agree. I put this in as a possibility in case there were descendants of a war widow who had subsequently remarried (not blood-kin to William) but the 1913 William birth makes it very unlikely.
Philip
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Here's his entry on the IBCC database:
https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/louth-wr/
Sadly no more personal detail.
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Here's his entry on the IBCC database:
https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/louth-wr/
Sadly no more personal detail.
I think we now have everything we need on William LOUTH and his relatives. We have moved on to searching for relatives of Leon HANNAM, Thomas Deuel SCARFF and the other crew members.
All the best
Philip
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Thanks; I posted that for David as not sure if he would be aware of it.
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Here's an obit for the brother of TD SCARFF.
https://passages.winnipegfreepress.com/passage-details/id-171382/Ben_Scarff
Maureen
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Here's an obit for the brother of TD SCARFF.
https://passages.winnipegfreepress.com/passage-details/id-171382/Ben_Scarff
Maureen
Wow! Lots of family names and two church names. It may be possible to find e-mail addresses for the churches online.
(ADDED - the web page http://mb.churchdirectory.ca/winnipeg/st-james-gospel-chapel/ gives a street address and a button to click to make contact by e-mail.)
Am I missing a step here? What evidence do we have that Benjamin George (1922-2010) was the brother of Thomas Deuel (1919-43)?
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I knew you'd ask that,Philip!
Here's another obit-for a sister (under Gertrude Ethel WILLIAMS) which proves the link.
https://newspaperarchive.com/winnipeg-free-press-mar-11-1992-p-41/
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Family in 1921:
http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1921&op=img&id=e002890589
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Family in 1921:
http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1921&op=img&id=e002890589
I'm a little surprised that Thomas Deuel (b1919) is listed as Deuel, daughter, 1 - but it's definitely the right family.
(Edited - ignore the struck out words!)
The obit link is for a site requiring a subscription, so I can't view it, but I think you have given enough evidence for David Van Coolwijk to e-mail the St James Gospel Chapel and ask the minister if the family still attend.
Philip
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Ah,sorry about the link. I did wonder.
Most of the obits are available on the Newspapers (Canada) from FMPast.
I don't have the capability of cutting and pasting them,though.
Maureen
EDIT: Not sure what you mean about ignoring the struck out words!
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EDIT: Not sure what you mean about ignoring the struck out words!
I found a way round it and managed to view the page.
Philip
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EDIT: Not sure what you mean about ignoring the struck out words!
I found a way round it and managed to view the page.
Philip
:) :)
Well done!
M
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So, to summarise the information found by crisane and MaureeninNY:
Thomas Deuel SCARFF
Service record gives birthplace as Winnipeg, Next of Kin Father - Charles Henry Scarff
1921 Canada census has Deuel age 1 with parents Charles & Daisy, sister Gertrude age 8 and another sister age 7
Winnipeg Free Press has obituary for Gertrude Ethel WILLIAMS nee SCARFF born 3 April 1913, died 9 March 1992. Member of St James Gospel Chapel. Many relatives named.
Winnipeg Free Press has obituary for Ben SCARFF born 19 August 1922, died 16 November 2010. Member of St James Gospel Chapel. Many relatives named.
Street address and contact e-mail for St James Gospel Chapel on
http://mb.churchdirectory.ca/winnipeg/st-james-gospel-chapel/
Two out of seven sorted - only five left! "And the next one, please!"
Philip
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I see there is information on Gordon Watson, Sergeant Pilot, RAF 1383608, on the Forces War Records site, but as I don't have a sub, I can't access it, other than that he was based at RAF Elvington in Yorkshire. If anyone does have a sub, it might be useful to check what info they have on there.
Regards
GS
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Going back to initial object of this thread i.e. William R Louth born William Lowth 1920 Blandford, mmn Hull.
His father William was born 1885 in Greenock, Renfrewshire, son of Patrick Lowth bc.1852 Ireland and Jane Boyle/s bc.1855 New Luce Wigtownshire.
Patrick and Jane had 12 children.
Have found in Private Trees on Ancestry some trees - 2 worth mentioning are Lowth Family Tree shown to have 9 attached records and Shea Family Tree shown to have 11 attached records both relating to William Lowth born 1885 - from what I can gather the only one of his children referred to is the Peter J. born 1928 (who married Shea).
Bearing this in mind, since Peter seems to be the 'source' of the Lowth family tree, and that he was William R Louth's brother - both spellings in the Scottish records although predominately Lowth - I'm wondering whether the submitter of this tree has present day information of Peter's descendants who are obviously 'kin' to William.
Perhaps worth contacting them directly via Ancestry?
Annette
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Nice memorial for Arthur Edward PARSONS:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m56/
Obit for one sister:
http://yourlifemoments.ca/sitepages/obituary.asp?oid=1002610
Maureen
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Going back to initial object of this thread i.e. William R Louth born William Lowth 1920 Blandford, mmn Hull.
His father William was born 1885 in Greenock, Renfrewshire, son of Patrick Lowth bc.1852 Ireland and Jane Boyle/s bc.1855 New Luce Wigtownshire.
Patrick and Jane had 12 children.
Have found in Private Trees on Ancestry some trees - 2 worth mentioning are Lowth Family Tree shown to have 9 attached records and Shea Family Tree shown to have 11 attached records both relating to William Lowth born 1885 - from what I can gather the only one of his children referred to is the Peter J. born 1928 (who married Shea).
Bearing this in mind, since Peter seems to be the 'source' of the Lowth family tree, and that he was William R Louth's brother - both spellings in the Scottish records although predominately Lowth - I'm wondering whether the submitter of this tree has present day information of Peter's descendants who are obviously 'kin' to William.
Perhaps worth contacting them directly via Ancestry?
Annette
I have just had one of those 'Duh moments' when I say to myself "Why didn't I think of that?". That is aq brilliant idea.
Philip
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Nice memorial for Arthur Edward PARSONS:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m56/
I am sure the Sarnia Historical Society would be interested to know what David Van Coolwijk and the people of Muiden are doing. They have a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/sarniahistoricalsociety/ And there's a photo which David might get permission to use.
Putting together the info (MaureeninNY your superstar award is in the mail!) gives:
Arthur Edwin PARSONS (born England) married Olive Sarah CORNISH (born England)
Arthur Edward PARSONS born 26 November 1916, killed in action 1 May 1943
brother John PARSONS (died before 2017)
brother Thomas PARSONS born 13 July 1925 (died before 2017)
sister Gwendolyn (died before 2017) (?m BAMBURY)
sister Shirley Helene PARSONS born 13 July 1925
Shirley married (1) Arthur Nash COLQUHOUN (d1955)
Shirley married (2) Angus James McKENZIE (d1993)
Shirley died 5 February 2017, Sarnia, Ontario, Canada
Shirley's daughter, grandchild named on obituary http://yourlifemoments.ca/sitepages/obituary.asp?oid=1002610
As the obituary does not name a church, the next step would either be to search for Shirley's descendants (on facebook or similar) or contract the Sarnia Historical Society to see if they could mediate.
Can we say that's three completed, four to go?
The RCAF have beaten the RAF!
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Why didn't I think of that...... the Sarnia Historical Society, I am going to contact them immediately!
Great work once again!
I probably found a chap who is related to Leon Hannam. It should be the grandson of Leon's brother..
I'll keep you updated..
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I see there is information on Gordon Watson, Sergeant Pilot, RAF 1383608, on the Forces War Records site, but as I don't have a sub, I can't access it, other than that he was based at RAF Elvington in Yorkshire. If anyone does have a sub, it might be useful to check what info they have on there.
Regards
GS
It just has the basic information-
Crashed at Muiden Holland, killed 1 May 1943, service number 1383608, Rank Sergeant, Nationality British
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Raymond Shepherd
Birth year 1922
Age 21
Death 1 May 1943
Number 929961
Rank Sergeant
Unit 77 Sqdn.
Regiment Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Grave reference Row E. Grave 81.
Cemetery or Memorial Muiden General Cemetery
Burial country Netherlands
Son of Ada Shepherd, of Great Yarmouth, Norfolk.
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I've been helping David Van Coolwijk track down other crew members and seem to be getting somewhere with relatives of Sgt William LOUTH, Sgt Gordon WATSON and Sgt Leon HANNAM through a combination of ancestry and facebook. I'm struggling a bit with Sgt. Raymond SHEPHERD and Sgt Ian CRAWFORD though.
I've found some information on Ian CRAWFORD thanks to a photo here of a Glasgow gravestone that he is included on: http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/scottishwargraves-ftopic541-0-asc-241.html
This confirms him as the son of John and Jean CRAWFORD from Glasgow but due to the lack of Scottish records I've reached a bit of a dead end! I can find the family on the 1901 census for Glasgow where there are 3 much younger sisters listed, and one of them, Maggie, is the mother of the William HILL who is also mentioned on the gravestone in the photo. Maggie was married in 1920 to a Salathiel HILL (1897-1965) but I'm not having much luck finding any living relatives. John and Jeannie must have had a large family as there is huge timespan between the birth of their first daughter (also Jeannie) in 1895 and the birth of Ian in 1922. From a tree on ancestry I have a bit more information on the family:
Father: John CRAWFORD (b. 1870)
Mother: Jeannie ? (b.1874)
Daughter: Jeannie B. CRAWFORD (b. 1894/5)
Daughter: Maggie H. CRAWFORD (b. 08-05-1896) m. Salathiel HILL in 1920 (d.1981)
Daughter: Janet B. CRAWFORD (b. 1899) (d. 06-12-1931)
_several other children in between!
Son: Ian Douglas CRAWFORD (b. 1922) (d. 01-05-1943)
Grandson: William HILL (b. 04-09-1921) (d. 07-07-1942)
Can anyone can take up the baton from here? Thanks for your help!
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I'm struggling a bit with Sgt. Raymond SHEPHERD and Sgt Ian CRAWFORD though.
Greetings, and a warm welcome to Rootschat.
crisane has found a good clue with Sgt Raymond SHEPHERD's mother Ada in Great Yarmouth , so I will hunt around for relatives.
Have you contacted the person who posted the CRAWFORD tree on Ancestry - maybe he or she is a relative?
All the best
Philip
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crisane has found a good clue with Sgt Raymond SHEPHERD's mother Ada in Great Yarmouth , so I will hunt around for relatives.
(modified)
There is a possible death for
Ada SHEPHERD age 82, Mar qtr 1965 Great Yarmouth vol 4b p573
This gives an approximate birth year of 1883 (ages on censuses, death records etc. are often inaccurate!)
The 1939 Register has:
Ada H SHEPHERD, widowed, born 14 Jan 1887
Address: 28 (street name redacted), Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, England
Occupation: Laundry Worker Iron
Philip
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Thanks Philip, I too found those references to Ada SHEPHERD but could get no further. I’ll send a message to the person on ancestry regarding the Crawford and Hill families but I don’t think it’s a regular user and it’s a bit of an offshoot on their tree but may be worth a go!
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[/quote]
The 1939 Register has:
Ada H SHEPHERD, widowed, born 14 Jan 1887
Address: 28 (street name redacted), Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, England
Occupation: Laundry Worker Iron
Philip
[/quote]
In case it proves to be useful, the street name is Belfort Place (move back a couple of pages ;))
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You all have been so helpfull! Much appreciated!
I have "finished" the website on the crew: https://davevancoolwijk.wixsite.com/halifaxmonument
I have found a relative of Gordon Watson in the meantime, he is going to ask around within his family.
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Good news David; dank je.....I hope I've got that right!
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you wrote it perfectly
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You all have been so helpfull! Much appreciated!
I have "finished" the website on the crew: https://davevancoolwijk.wixsite.com/halifaxmonument
I have found a relative of Gordon Watson in the meantime, he is going to ask around within his family.
Thank you for posting the link to the memorial.
Thank you and your colleagues for remembering and paying tribute.
Thank you for giving us the opportunity to help with tracing the families of the aircrew.
The current position seems to be:
Sgt Gordon WATSON RAF - living relative contacted
F/O Arthur Edward PARSONS RCAF - names of living relatives and local website link found
Flt Sgt Thomas Deuel SCARFF RCAF - names of living relatives and church website link found
Sgt William Robert LOUTH RAF - names of living relatives born 1950s found
Sgt Ian Douglas CRAWFORD RAF - Needs research in Glasgow - Ancestry tree owner might be a lead
Sgt Leon HANNAM RAF - Needs research - possible leads on Mannoch/Pollintine
Sgt Raymond SHEPHERD RAF - Needs research - mother d1965 Yarmouth, no info on parents/siblings yet.
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Thank you for your kind words!
That sums it all up.
Watson, Í have contact with 2 different relatives
Parsons, also found Ted Parsons, a nephew, no reply yet. Also contacted Sarnia Historical society
Scarff, I will contact the church and the relatives, I also contacted the local historical society
Louth or Lowth. I am awaiting reply.
Crawford, no news yet.
Hannam, contacted 2 living relatives, no reply yet.
Shepherd, no news yet.
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I have opened a new thread on Ada SHEPHERD (mother of Sgt Raymond SHEPHERD) in Yarmouth, Norfolk.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794486.0
Fingers crossed for luck!
Philip
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I have opened a new thread on Ada SHEPHERD (mother of Sgt Raymond SHEPHERD) in Yarmouth, Norfolk.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794486.0
UPDATE
On the other thread (combined with information posted on this thread) I believe we have identified Sgt Raymond SHEPHERD's mother. She had several brothers and sisters - a couple of their marriages have been found and the search for descendants has begun.
Any volunteers for a crack at Sgt Ian Douglas CRAWFORD's family?
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Ian Douglas Crawford
Birth year 1922
Age 21
Died 1 May 1943
Number 634710
Rank Sergeant
Unit 77 Sqdn.
Regiment Royal Air Force
Grave reference Row E. Grave 80.
Cemetery or Memorial - Muiden General Cemetery Netherlands
Son of John and Jean Crawford, of Glasgow.
Link https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead
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I have opened a new thread on the Lanarkshire board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794579.0
to aid the search for the relatives of Sgt Ian Douglas CRAWFORD and included the information which fulliautomatix and other Rootschatters have posted on this thread.
Philip
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I fear it might be back to the drawing board with William LOUTH (or LOWTH) despite the brilliant research by other RootsChatters.
I've been looking at Electoral Roll for Hayes & Harlington and the William Louth who was in Hayes in 1939 is still alive in the 1950s!! For example he appears on the 1949 and 1951 ER together with his mother Charlotte Daisy WALSHE (nee HULL and formerly LOUTH), step father Patrick WALSHE and brother Peter J LOUTH at 129 Nield Road, Hayes.
I suspect that the birth date supplied to us (31-10-1920) is not correct. This is the record of his death in 2002 (with THAT birth date)
William Patrick P Louth
Birth: 31/10/1920
Death:06/2002 Bath and North east Somerset Somerset England
This opens up other avenues for others named William Louth but the d.o.b. is unknown!
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I suspect that the birth date supplied to us (31-10-1920) is not correct. This is the record of his death in 2002 (with THAT birth date)
William Patrick P Louth
Birth: 31/10/1920
Death:06/2002 Bath and North east Somerset Somerset England
This opens up other avenues for others named William Louth but the d.o.b. is unknown!
OK, so it's back to the drawing board. The research we have already done was based around the birth date of 31.10.1920, which now appears to be incorrect.
From FreeBMD these two are worth researching, both have the middle name Robert (confirmed on the GRO Index https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
Lowth, William R. mmn Mayfield. Leicester 7a 321. March Q 1912
Louth, William R. mmn Lambert. West Bromwich 6b 1552. Dec Q 1913
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Well, I received the birthdate from 77 squadron association, perhaps they got the date wrong, and were just guessing. Not sure though...
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Well, I received the birthdate from 77 squadron association, perhaps they got the date wrong, and were just guessing. Not sure though...
Not your fault David, the information you posted originally was what you were given. How confident are you of the middle name Robert?
Added: I can see the CWGC has him as William Robert Louth
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It could be that the birth date is correct but that William was not born in England or Wales or it is incorrect and he is the William born in Leicester whose wife appears to remarry after the war. :-\
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BACK TO BASICS
Runnymede Memorial, panel 157
1198324 Sgt William Robert LOUTH RAFVR 1 May 1943
No age is given on the memorial.
If William was over 18 and (probably) under 45 in 1943 that widens the search - and could mean working through a long list!
Time to roll up my sleeves, polish my glasses, put the kettle on and get cracking!
Philip
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Good luck! I hope you find something! Mr. Louth is a mysterious bloke.. Hopufully you are able to find anything!
I have no luck on the rest of the crew, apart from Watson....
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Possible births on GRO 1880-1927 for William Robert LOUTH (and variants)
birth Sep qtr 1902 Tynemouth vol 10b p246 LOUGH William Robert mmn DIXON
birth Mar qtr 1912 Leicester vol 7a p321 LOWTH William Robert mmn MAYFIELD
birth Dec qtr 1913 W Bromwich vol 6b p1552 LOUTH William Robert mmn LAMBERT
(NOTE - FreeBMD has other births listed as William R - but these have been proved not to be William Robert by checking on GRO)
Possible death on FreeBMD 1900-1983 for William R LOUTH (and variants)
death Jun qtr 1941 Tynemouth vol 10b p378 LOUGH William R age 38
Possible marriages on FreeBMD for William R LOUTH (and variants)
marriage Sep qtr 1939 Leicester vol 7a p857 LOUTH William R & HUNTER Kathleen I
marriage Dec qtr 1944 Leicester vol 7a p684 LOWTH William R & LOWTH Faith W
If (as seems very likely) the birth date given by the 77 Squadron Association is not correct, the names above are worth looking at.
The 1941 death and 1944 marriage (if they match) would eliminate two out of the three names.
Philip
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Possible marriages on FreeBMD for William R LOUTH (and variants)
marriage Sep qtr 1939 Leicester vol 7a p857 LOUTH William R & HUNTER Kathleen I
Philip
Kathleen J? Louth married James McCaskell Sept Q 1947 Leicester 3a 1891. So what happened to her first husband William R Louth? Died in WW2?
I believe she was Kathleen Ivy Hunter, she is with her first husband William R Louth in 1939 in Leicester, she is listed as Ivy K Louth.
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David, where did the information he was born or lived in Hayes come from?
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Possible marriages on FreeBMD for William R LOUTH (and variants)
marriage Sep qtr 1939 Leicester vol 7a p857 LOUTH William R & HUNTER Kathleen I
Philip
Kathleen J? Louth married James McCaskell Sept Q 1947 Leicester 3a 1891. So what happened to her first husband William R Louth? Died in WW2?
I believe she was Kathleen Ivy Hunter, she is with her first husband William R Louth in 1939 in Leicester, she is listed as Ivy K Louth.
From what I found, I think William and Kathleen must have been divorced before 1944 (for William to marry Faith W), then in 1947 Kathleen married again.
anyway - as that William married (again) in 1944 he can't be our airman who died in 1943.
Philip
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David, where did the information he was born or lived in Hayes come from?
Also from 77 squadron association
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birth Dec qtr 1913 W Bromwich vol 6b p1552 LOUTH William Robert mmn LAMBERT
I've found a possible brother to this William, called Frederick Arthur LOUTH, also with mmn LAMBERT born in W Bromwich 1909. I've traced his family and I think I've found his daughter still alive and with an email address!!! Watch this space...
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birth Dec qtr 1913 W Bromwich vol 6b p1552 LOUTH William Robert mmn LAMBERT
I've found a possible brother to this William, called Frederick Arthur LOUTH, also with mmn LAMBERT born in W Bromwich 1909. I've traced his family and I think I've found his daughter still alive and with an email address!!! Watch this space...
That is excellent news.
If this is the correct William Robert it saves a lot of research eliminating every LOUTH only baptised as William.
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Hannam, contacted 2 living relatives, no reply yet.
Just in case - I have found four siblings of Leon HANNAM on FreeBMD:
marriage Dec qtr 1919 Holborn vol 1b p1398 HANNAM Leon & MANNCOCK Margaret C E
1) birth Dec qtr 1920 Islington vol1b p359 HANNAM Leon mmn MANNOCH
2) birth Sep qtr 1922 Islington vol 1b p524 HANNAM mmn MANNOOCH
3) birth Jun qtr 1924 Islington vol 1b p502 HANNAM mmn MANNOOCH
4) birth Dec qtr 1928 Islington vol 1b p392 HANNAM mmn MANNOCH
5) birth Mar qtr 1936 Islington vol 1b p354 HANNAM mmn MANNEECH
I am sending PMs to David Van Coolwijk and fulliautomatix (to avoid naming possibly living relatives on a public forum)
Philip
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Possible marriages on FreeBMD for William R LOUTH (and variants)
marriage Sep qtr 1939 Leicester vol 7a p857 LOUTH William R & HUNTER Kathleen I
Philip
Kathleen J? Louth married James McCaskell Sept Q 1947 Leicester 3a 1891. So what happened to her first husband William R Louth? Died in WW2?
I believe she was Kathleen Ivy Hunter, she is with her first husband William R Louth in 1939 in Leicester, she is listed as Ivy K Louth.
From what I found, I think William and Kathleen must have been divorced before 1944 (for William to marry Faith W), then in 1947 Kathleen married again.
anyway - as that William married (again) in 1944 he can't be our airman who died in 1943.
Philip
I think William R Louth who married Kathleen is still a possibility for our airman. There are 2 William R Louth/Lowth's living in Leicester in 1939.
William R Louth (b. 17.11.1913) with wife Kathleen. Need to search for a birth reg for him as he is not the one with mmn MAYFIELD, see below. Could he be the one born in West Bromwich? The birth date fits.
William R Lowth (b. 07.12.1911) unmarried man living in the same house as widowed Faith W Lowth - this is the couple who go on to marry in 1944.
He is this man, birth Mar qtr 1912 Leicester vol 7a p321 LOWTH William Robert mmn MAYFIELD.
William married Faith Lowth in 1944, his deceased brother's widow. His brother was Nathan Lowth - mmn MAYFIELD. He is not our man as he was still alive in 1944.
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birth Dec qtr 1913 W Bromwich vol 6b p1552 LOUTH William Robert mmn LAMBERT
I've found a possible brother to this William, called Frederick Arthur LOUTH, also with mmn LAMBERT born in W Bromwich 1909. I've traced his family and I think I've found his daughter still alive and with an email address!!! Watch this space...
If I have traced the same family, Frederick Arthur Louth's parents were Fred Louth and Elizabeth Wilson Louth (nee Lambert). Both Fred and Elizabeth died in LEICESTER (from probate records). So, the family who lived in West Bromwich moved to Leicester at some point - it's all looking good.
Let's hope Frederick's daughter can confirm this.
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So we are closing in on the family? That would me great!
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So we are closing in on the family? That would me great!
We need Frederick's daughter to confirm that her father's brother was William the airman who died in WW2. Hopefully fulliautomatix will get a reply to his email soon.
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Success! I’ve literally just had a response from Fredericks daughter, Christine. She says: “Yes, Sgt. William Robert Louth is my uncle and I do have some information about him. He was married to someone called Kitty bur they had no children and she remarried. I tried to find out some information about him some years ago and had a reply stating that his body had not been found unlike the rest of the crew. As far as I know I, apart from my children and grandchildren, am his only living close relative. I am very interested in what is happening in The Netherlands and would be willing to do a DNA test if that was required. I would like to visit Muiden and see the grave. I know his name is on three memorials - Runnymede, Halifax and Humberstone, Leicester where he lived. Thank you very much for contacting me and please keep me informed. I will have a look at the websites from Muiden ” so yes, ‘Kitty’ must be the Kathleen referred to earlier. Good job everyone!
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Success! I’ve literally just had a response from Fredericks daughter, Christine. She says: “Yes, Sgt. William Robert Louth is my uncle and I do have some information about him.
That is marvellous news.
Well done!
Philip
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Excellent news! So he was the Leicestershire one after all. :)
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Excellent news! So he was the Leicestershire one after all. :)
It simply didn't occur to me that William R born in Leicester married in Leicester and that William R born in West Bromwich also married in Leicester. ???
Philip[
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wow! So happy to read this! I couldn't have done it without you guys! Excellent Result!
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That is fantastic news! It is made all the more special by the fact that Christine had already taken an interest in her uncle and tried to find out about him, she must have been stunned when she received the email.
Excellent result, well done everyone :)
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I have been contacted by several familymembers of Thomas D. Scarff with the help of a Canadian radiostation.
Here's the interview I had with them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9kR5gvWnso
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Excellent news! Thank you for the update. :)
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Thanks for keeping us up to date with your progress, great news about Thomas D. Scarff.
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I am having a nice conversation with the niece of the still missing Sergeant Louth, I have even received a photo! Click on the link to see it!
https://davevancoolwijk.wixsite.com/halifaxmonument/william-robert-louth
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Thank you for the update; a fine looking young man.
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He sure was! Such a waste of life......
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I am meeting the family of William Louth next Monday! Also interviewing them for a documentary I am making....
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I am meeting the family of William Louth next Monday! Also interviewing them for a documentary I am making....
That is marvellous news. Well done, sir!
Philip
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Splendid news; well done! Thanks for the update. :)
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I am meeting the family of William Louth next Monday! Also interviewing them for a documentary I am making....
That's great news! So glad to have put you in touch with each other
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I have met Christine, the cousin of sergeant Louth about a month ago.
We had a nice chat and visited several locations related to Sgt Louth and had an interview for the documentary I am making!
She mentioned Kathleen Ivy Hunter, the widow of Sgt. Louth. Her father (Louth' brother) went to visit Kathleen (Kitty) quite often, but his wife thought that was not a very good idea because Kathleen remarried and started a new life.
Christine didn't have much information, but interesting none the less!
William was a band leader and loved making music!
Kathleen did that also and had an absolute hearing!
His hair turned white during the war.
etc.
What I have learned is that all the documents regarding the missing of William were sent to Kathleen, because, of course, he was his wife.
From this thread I have learned that Kathleen married a certain Mr. McCaskell in September 1947.
I have found out on FreeBMD that she was born in 1920 in Sheffield and her mothers name is probably Beer.
What I am hinting at, is I want to try and find (if she is still alive, not completely impossible) her or her next of kin to learn if there is still something left in her family about William Louth.
It is a longshot, but I think, because they spent several years together, that she might have saved somethings about her first husband.
What do you guys think? In for another search?
The search for Crawford and Shepherd's families are still ongoing, no updates yet!
(don't mind the beard, I already shaved lol)
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Thank you for the update, much appreciated. :)
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What do you guys think? In for another search?
Too right! Bring it on!
p.s. - nothing wrong with the beard. I am envious - my hair is now silver/grey and my beard (when I have one) is pure white :)
Philip
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Thanks Philip, usually I let it grow during autumn and winter. But recently I applied for the firebrigade, and it is not allowed to have a beard.
I am having a hard time finding anything else on the net about Kathleen, or "aunt" Kitty as Christine calls her. I have been looking for obituary's in Leicester, but there are so many "Hunters" and no McCaskells. So that is looking for a needle in a haystack.
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As has already been stated, William Robert Louth was married to Kathleen Ivy Hunter - however, she was not the one mentioned previously as being born in 1920 Sheffield. Again, as already mentioned on this thread, on 1939 register she is listed as Ivy K. She presumably preferred her second name, especially as remembered by her niece as 'Kitty'.
She was actually registered as Ivy K. Hunter in Mar.qtr.1917 Leicester - mothers maiden name Dwyer. We also know she remarried to a James McCaskell in 1947.
I have found her death entry in Scotland (per Scotlands People) - Ivy Kathleen McCaskell aged 88 (b.1917), died 2005 Vale of Leven registration district (West Dunbartonshire) - mmn Dwyer! There is also a separate entry in the name of Kathleen suggesting this was the name she went by.
There is also a death entry for a James McWilliam McCaskell aged 62 - mmn Cameron - in 1982 Vale of Leven who may well have been her husband (birth index shows he was born in 1920 Bonhill, Dunbartonshire).
So, it's looking as if her second husband was Scottish and that sometime after marrying in Leicester they moved up to Scotland. No idea if they had any children - nothing shown in Leicester and can see nothing obvious in Scottish births either in the correct time frame. (Luckily, not a common surname).
Annette
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Good find Annette. Her new surname did hint at a Scottish link.
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Thanks Annette!
So there is a slim chance that there are children?
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There are McCaskell deaths up to 2001 in Vale of Leven none with mothers ms Hunter but could be relations of her husband there are also marriages in 1990's and births up to 2002 so potenionally still family in the area
this appears to be one of the local newspaper website http://www.dumbartonreporter.co.uk/
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Thanks for the update David.
Electoral Registers 2003-2005 show a Kathleen McCaskell living in Balloch (an internet search shows this is at the north end of Vale of Leven). This would fit with the 2005 death Annette found.
I have the full address but I'm not sure if I should post it in case this is not our Kathleen and the lady at this address is still alive. (pm me if anyone wants the full address).
Added: Just found another Electoral Register for another female McCaskell with a birth date around 1948-1950 at the same address in 2003 and 2004-2007.