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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: philipsearching on Monday 04 June 18 00:18 BST (UK)

Title: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: philipsearching on Monday 04 June 18 00:18 BST (UK)
There is a thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794284.0 which was started to get help tracing relatives of a bomber crew killed in action May 1943.  That thread covers most of the crew, and much progress has been made, but using one thread to track seven aircrew is not ideal.  This thread is to enable a search for the siblings of Sgt Ian Douglas CRAWFORD and their descendants so they can be made aware of the tribute in Muiden.

The CWGC website has some information:
Sgt 634710 Ian Douglas Crawford RAF 77 Squadron
Died 1 May 1943 age 21
Number 634710
Row E. Grave 80, Muiden General Cemetery Netherlands
Son of John and Jean Crawford, of Glasgow.

Rootschatters fulliautomatix and David Van Coolwijk need our help.  fulliautomatix writes:

I've found some information on Ian CRAWFORD thanks to a photo here of a Glasgow gravestone that he is included on: http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/scottishwargraves-ftopic541-0-asc-241.html
This confirms him as the son of John and Jean CRAWFORD from Glasgow but due to the lack of Scottish records I've reached a bit of a dead end!  I can find the family on the 1901 census for Glasgow where there are 3 much younger sisters listed, and one of them, Maggie, is the mother of the William HILL who is also mentioned on the gravestone in the photo. Maggie was married in 1920 to a Salathiel HILL (1897-1965) but I'm not having much luck finding any living relatives. John and Jeannie must have had a large family as there is huge timespan between the birth of their first daughter (also Jeannie) in 1895 and the birth of Ian in 1922. From a tree on ancestry I have a bit more information on the family:

Father: John CRAWFORD (b. 1870)
Mother: Jeannie ? (b.1874)
Daughter: Jeannie B. CRAWFORD (b. 1894/5)
Daughter: Maggie H. CRAWFORD (b. 08-05-1896) m. Salathiel HILL in 1920 (d.1981)
Daughter: Janet B. CRAWFORD (b. 1899) (d. 06-12-1931)
_several other children in between!
Son: Ian Douglas CRAWFORD (b. 1922) (d. 01-05-1943)
Grandson: William HILL (b. 04-09-1921) (d. 07-07-1942)

Can anyone can take up the baton from here? Thanks for your help!


Come on you bravehearts - don't let the Canadians and the English outdo you!
Philip
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: Wendy2305 on Monday 04 June 18 03:36 BST (UK)
To start you off a possibility
Margaret Hamilton Crawford married Salathiel Hill she died in 1981 age 84 mother's MS Bell
John Crawford married a Jane Bell in Hamilton in 1893
No luck in finding births and at a guess the daughter Jeannie is Jane Bell Crawford but can't find a suitable birth or death to match her year of birth
Added there's a Janet Bell Crawford born 1898 in Hamiton
Added again Jeanie Buchannan Crawford b 1895 Hamilton
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: philipsearching on Monday 04 June 18 06:31 BST (UK)
To start you off a possibility
Margaret Hamilton Crawford married Salathiel Hill she died in 1981 age 84 mother's MS Bell
John Crawford married a Jane Bell in Hamilton in 1893
No luck in finding births and at a guess the daughter Jeannie is Jane Bell Crawford but can't find a suitable birth or death to match her year of birth
Added there's a Janet Bell Crawford born 1898 in Hamiton
Added again Jeanie Buchannan Crawford b 1895 Hamilton

Many thanks for this info.  Could you let us know the source?

Philip
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: philipsearching on Monday 04 June 18 06:41 BST (UK)
Ian Douglas CRAWFORD's nephew (info on CWGC website):
Sgt (U/T pilot) 1366350 HILL William RAFVR died 7 Jul 1942 age 20.
Parents Salathiel and Margaret H HILL of Riddrie,Strathclyde
buried Harare (Pioneer) Cemetery, Zimbabwe, 1939-45 War Graves Plot, grave 69
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: philipsearching on Monday 04 June 18 07:12 BST (UK)
Being a complete novice on Scottish records, could I ask if there are census returns available online (I can't find them on a freesite) and if so, could some kind Rootschatter post a list of the CRAWFORD household in 1901 and 1911?

The more info we have on the number and names siblings of Ian Douglas CRAWFORD the more likelihood there is of finding nephews and nieces.

Many thanks
Philip
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: Wendy2305 on Monday 04 June 18 07:25 BST (UK)
Hi Phillip sorry should have said for the time frame you are looking at the only place for Scottish records is Scotlands People website pay per view has all the census originals can be downloaded also original BMD with restrictions 100 years for births 75 years for marriages and 50 years for deaths you can download older records and view the newer ones in Edinburgh or one of the family history centres
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: Wendy2305 on Monday 04 June 18 07:55 BST (UK)
Have been looking for the Family in the census using the free index and have found the family in 1901in Hamilton  Ref no on Scotlands People 647/9/11 and 647/9/12 they seem to be split over 2 pages there also appears to be a 56 year old John Crawford and a 20 year old Susan Crawford living with them or next door possibly father and sister to John
Jane Crawford new Bell died 1949 in the Shettleston area of Glasgow
Will look further tonight work bekons
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: Wendy2305 on Monday 04 June 18 08:28 BST (UK)
On my phone so can't check properly but think the family maybe  in Govanhill Glasgow in 1911
There are 16 Crawford living with a Jeanie Crawford there not all the same family or household just the search I used
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 04 June 18 14:13 BST (UK)
With Wendy's details, this looks to be the family in 1901:

John Crawford 31 butcher assistant b. Stirling, s'lingshire
Jeanie Crawford   27 b. Glasgow
Jeanie B Crawford 6 b. Hamilton
Maggie H Crawford 4 b. Hamilton
Janet B Crawford 2 b. Hamilton
John Marshall 21 boarder butcher assistance b. Stirling, s'lingshire

Address: 76 Portland Pl, Hamilton, Lanarkshire

Wendy, the separate household you mentioned in 1901:

John Crawford 56 coal miner hewer b. Craighha, Ayrshire
Matthew Crawford 25 son coal miner b. Lesmahagow, Lanark
Susan Crawford 20 daughter domestic b. Hamilton

Address: 74 Portland Pl, Hamilton, Lanarkshire

Monica
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Saturday 18 August 18 15:15 BST (UK)
Not been here for way too long, somehow I didn't receive any notifications for this topic.

Anyways, I have found the last known "address" of I.D. Crawford in an old archive of the Mayor of Muiden.


It says:

Mr. J. Crawford
"Salma"
Taymilt
Agryll Schotland

I am not sure how to read this address, but maybe it is helpful!
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: philipsearching on Saturday 18 August 18 16:19 BST (UK)
Mr. J. Crawford
"Salma"
Taymilt
Agryll Schotland

"Salma" would have been the name of the house (which has almost certainly been changed in the last 70-odd years.
Taymilt - could this be Taynuilt - a village in Argyllshire which according to wikipedia has a population of around 800.

I'm not very familiar with Scottish records, but there may be old telephone directories or electoral registers online (or a modern post office) - I'll have a hunt.

Philip
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Saturday 18 August 18 16:26 BST (UK)
Thanks Philip,

I guess Taymilt was probably misspelled by the person who made the document. Taynuilt sounds like the correct name.

Fortunately this narrows the search down to a small area.

I also posted a classified on https://www.argyllshireadvertiser.co.uk/ Hopefully that helps!
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: philipsearching on Saturday 18 August 18 17:56 BST (UK)
http://www.openinghourspostoffice.co.uk/Post%20Office%20Taynuilt%20-%20Taynuilt%20(Argyll)/PA35%201JE/Taynuilt/9839

The address for Taynuilt Post Office is:

The Post Office
Main Street
Taynuilt
Argyllshire
Scotland
PA35 1JE

As Taynuilt is a small village it might be worth writing to the Postmaster explaining the Memorial and the search for relatives of Ian Crawrford (with the last known address of "Salma"), adding your contact details and asking the Postmaster to pass your letter to any relatives of the Crawford family if they are in the village.

It's a long shot, but it might work.

(I am sending you a personal message)

Philip
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: fulliautomatix on Monday 20 August 18 15:58 BST (UK)
Interesting to see that address in Argyll.  Even today this is a 2 hour + drive from Glasgow, so quite a distance from the addresses for the Crawford family on the 1891 and 1901 census. Perhaps John and Jean Crawford retired there before the war or maybe they moved out of the city to escape the bombing? There is a cottage on the outskirts of the village of Taynuilt just along the A85 (heading west) which appears as 'Selma' on 192.com and Zoopla when I did a Google search, but it looks like this is a holiday cottage now and called 'Novar'. Writing to the village post office is a good idea though, short of finding any other leads!
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Tuesday 21 August 18 22:42 BST (UK)
Ok, there is a development......

I was contacted by the Oban Times from Argyllshire yesterday. They stumbled across my research and they wanted to help me! I told them everything I know. Hopefully the story will be printed soon!

So I'll wait a wee bit longer with my letter to the postmaster..
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Thursday 06 September 18 10:48 BST (UK)
The article has been published!

No response yet.

I read somewhere on this forum that a crawford family from argyll moved to south africa or australia, nor sure though. I cannot find it anymore....

https://www.obantimes.co.uk/2018/08/30/dutch-town-wants-to-trace-tragic-taynuilt-airmans-family/

https://davevancoolwijk.wixsite.com/halifaxmonument/ian-douglas-crawford
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Thursday 06 September 18 12:11 BST (UK)
I also found this...... He is mentioned on the bottom.

This is at Sandymount cemetery in Glasgow!
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 06 September 18 13:09 BST (UK)
"Father: John CRAWFORD (b. 1870)
Mother: Jeannie ? (b.1874)
Daughter: Jeannie B. CRAWFORD (b. 1894/5)
Daughter: Maggie H. CRAWFORD (b. 08-05-1896) m. Salathiel HILL in 1920 (d.1981)
Daughter: Janet B. CRAWFORD (b. 1899) (d. 06-12-1931)
_several other children in between!
Son: Ian Douglas CRAWFORD (b. 1922) (d. 01-05-1943)
Grandson: William HILL (b. 04-09-1921) (d. 07-07-1942)"

Just keeping everything together for ease of reading/following.

1962

Maggie H Crawford & Salathiel Hill were residing at;
16 Gartcraig Road,
Provan,
Glasgow

Source Citation
The Mitchell Library, Glasgow, Scotland, Reference Number 410802

Relatives may recognise the address & come forward hopefully?

Annie
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Thursday 06 September 18 13:13 BST (UK)
Thanks Annie! I hope that helps!
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: Wendy2305 on Thursday 06 September 18 13:36 BST (UK)
Margaret's death was registered in the Martha Street area of Glasgow in 1981 there maybe relatives still in the area
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Thursday 06 September 18 13:40 BST (UK)
I hope so!!
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: gillytee on Wednesday 09 January 19 10:16 GMT (UK)
Father: John CRAWFORD (b. 24/6/1868)
Mother: Jane/Jean/Jeannie BELL (b.29/3/1872)
Daughter: Jeannie Buchanan CRAWFORD (b. 13/1/1895)
Daughter: Maggie Hamilton CRAWFORD (b. 8/5/1896) m. Salathiel HILL in 1920 (d.1981)
Daughter: Janet Bell CRAWFORD (b. 31/3/1898 d. 6/12/1931)  She was a Hatter and the family were living at 78 Gretna Street, Bridgeton at the time
Daughter: Letitia Hamilton Jones Crawford (b: 3/7/1900 d: 11/1/1901)

The family then migrated to Sydney Mines, Cape Breton, Canada in 1903 (the father moved in April and the rest of the family in October) where a son was born (my grandfather)

Son: John Crawford (b: 15/1/1905 d: 31/1/1979)  He died in Osoyoos, BC, Canada

The family moved back to Scotland in August 1907

Son: Ian Douglas CRAWFORD (b. 1921  somewhere from 2/5/1921 - 31/12/1921) (d. 01-05-1943) He was born in Dennistoun

Grandson: William HILL (b. 04-09-1921) (d. 07-07-1942)

In 1944 the family were living at Selma, Taynuilt where John Crawford Jr applied for a birth certificate.  Presumably this was so that he could move back to Canada.

I've attached images of Selma Cottage and where it is - found on Google maps
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Wednesday 09 January 19 13:33 GMT (UK)
Thank you so much for this information! So they probably moved to Canada.

This is going to be a needle in a haystack! Oh well, just another challenge!

Is there a way to find out to where they moved in Canada?
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Wednesday 09 January 19 13:42 GMT (UK)
Wait a second......

Did I just read that you are related to Ian Crawford?
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: gillytee on Wednesday 09 January 19 15:28 GMT (UK)
Ian is my great-uncle but I sadly never knew of him until this week.

The family moved to Canada in 1903 and came back in 1907 during which time my grandfather was born.  I found most of the family in the 1911 census living in Allan Street, Glasgow.  I found the passenger lists for the outbound journeys last year and then this week I found the return journey in August 1907.   

Only John Crawford Jr moved to Canada (I think!)  I hadn't taken into account that any more of the family might have moved back.  He married my grandmother in 1927 but I think they divorced around the time my father was born in 1928.  My father never knew his father and had always wondered what became of him, hence my research.  Once of the pieces of documentation I found was the application for his registration of birth.  The address that he gave at that time was Selma, Taynuilt, Argyll, Scotland.  He also put the same address for his father, also John Crawford and his mother's name was entered as Jeanie Bell.  The date of this application was October 1944.

Anyway, I found that my grandfather died in Osoyoos, British Columbia in 1979 at the age of 74.  He had remarried by then and his second wife was a German lady called Hedwig (Hedy) Niewerth.  I know that she emigrated to Canada in 1952.

I'm delighted to have found this thread as it's provided me with some more information that I didn't have.  ;D
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Wednesday 09 January 19 15:41 GMT (UK)
Ian should be in this picture, 5 of the 7 men are known to me, after intensive research.

He should be the 2nd or 4th in the top row from the left.

You are not in the possesion of a picture of Ian by any chance?

Anyways, there is more information of the crash on my website of the Halifax he flew in and crashed in my hometown in 1943.

http://www.halifaxmonumentmuiden.nl



Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: gillytee on Thursday 10 January 19 09:39 GMT (UK)
Thanks for that David and thank you so much for all that you and your family have done for Ian and the other crew members.

I'm sorry but I have absolutely no photos of this generation of my family but I did discover last night that there were two more older sisters:

Clara Crawford (b: 8/2/1912) who married Edward Brown 17/6/1933
Annie Bell Crawford (b: 2/1/1915)

I wonder if there were any more siblings after Annie and before Ian.  I'm still to find out if there are any surviving children of this generation.  The only child mentioned is the one on the gravestone that you found named William Hill who died 7/7/1942

If I find anything then I'll post it here  :)
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Thursday 10 January 19 18:58 GMT (UK)
I'm looking forward to your findings! As for the monument, I hope you find anything about Ian!
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Friday 18 January 19 00:13 GMT (UK)
You could try to place a message here on this facebook page. There's a lot of Crawfords there!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/626360444139341/?fref=nf
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Friday 18 January 19 00:48 GMT (UK)
Not sure, but I think this man is related. He had a brother called Bill, this could be William (Billy) Hill.

Of course I could be wrong, but also a Crawford is mentioned from Osooyos.

https://www.genealogiequebec.com/necro/alberta/calgary/the-calgary-sun-ab/2123927/HILL-Kenneth-John/avis-de-deces
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Sunday 03 February 19 20:59 GMT (UK)
The Osoyoos Times are also looking for family of Ian Crawford!

https://www.osoyoostimes.com/dutch-historians-looking-for-information-on-ww2-flight-engineer-connected-to-osoyoos/?fbclid=IwAR2jQr6f_HeNiYMkiE9CzzwIh4wGy0XPu1oqqMcLLWf2FYCAA2PDerOYvVY
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: fulliautomatix on Monday 04 February 19 15:07 GMT (UK)
Not sure, but I think this man is related. He had a brother called Bill, this could be William (Billy) Hill.

Of course I could be wrong, but also a Crawford is mentioned from Osooyos.

https://www.genealogiequebec.com/necro/alberta/calgary/the-calgary-sun-ab/2123927/HILL-Kenneth-John/avis-de-deces

This is a good lead! I've done a quick search on Facebook and there is a Rick Crawford from Osooyos on there who looks about the right age and is married to a Margaret. I've sent him a message with a link to the newspaper article to see if he is related.
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Monday 04 February 19 16:07 GMT (UK)
I also found Rick Crawford, however he did not respond, neither did Margaret.

Hope you have better luck!
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Monday 04 February 19 16:11 GMT (UK)
There are also leads in Nothern Ireland and Isle of man...
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Tuesday 05 March 19 18:36 GMT (UK)
No news yet.......

Meanwhile i have made a banner for our newly started foundation..


All crew members are on there, except the photo's on the right are the only two names I am missing..
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 05 March 19 18:55 GMT (UK)
Such a shame there's no reply one way or another i.e. possibly related or not  :(

Annie
Title: Re: Tracing relatives of Ian CRAWFORD of Glasgow k-i-a 1943
Post by: David Van Coolwijk on Tuesday 05 March 19 19:25 GMT (UK)
That is unfortunately the case, I hope to find someone soon, we are revealing the monument at May 1st 2020. so time is running out.....