RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Jill Eaton on Monday 04 June 18 13:08 BST (UK)
-
Apologies if this has been asked before but I've got an ancestor (at least I HOPE he's my ancestor)
on the 1939 census:
John James Harrington:
West Ham
schedule No. 80
sub schedule 1
Enumeration district CBJR
Reg district 188-2
His date of birth on the register is 25th August 1889 is in pen
There is then a pencil alteration over the top which reads 31st August 1889.
Who would have made the alteration and why?
If the pencilled-in date is the correct date then this is almost certainly my great-uncle.
-
The transcription is weird too. I'm absolutely certain he wasn't a:
"Detective & Sorter Metal Sortts Heavy Worker" and I think his wife is called "Annie" not Dennie
-
The '39 register was later used by NHS. Maybe he later had to supply his birth cert to NHS for some reason and the alteration / correction was made at that point. My grandmother had different dob by a couple of days on '39 reg to that on her birth cert.
-
The transcription is weird too. I'm absolutely certain he wasn't a:
"Detective & Sorter Metal Sortts Heavy Worker" and I think his wife is called "Annie" not Dennie
Are you looking at Ancestry or FindMyPast? I read a different word for "detective" and one much more likely to fit with a metal sorter
-
The transcription is weird too. I'm absolutely certain he wasn't a:
"Detective & Sorter Metal Sortts Heavy Worker" and I think his wife is called "Annie" not Dennie
Are you looking at Ancestry or FindMyPast? I read a different word for "detective" and one much more likely to fit with a metal sorter
Ancestry. I've notified them that there appears to be transcription errors
-
Please also remember that the 1939 National Register isn't a census! ;D
It was continually updated, as the NHS Central Register in to 1980s or 1990s.
-
So the pencilled-in amendment should be the correct DOB then? This is excellent news ;D
I wonder why the original was incorrect?
-
Ive just found a relative on the 1939 Reg on Ancestry transcribed as a Metal Detective ? On further investigation I found, sadly, it should read Mental Defective
-
One of my great aunts has a married name added, then crossed out and her maiden name reentered, then that crossed out when she married. She had been confused with someone of the same name.
-
Birth dates are often wrong* on the 1939 register. Especially in transcriptions. It's always worth checking the original image. Ancestry's transcriptions are worse than FindMyPast's in my experience.
*I say wrong, what I mean is they often don't match with what we 'know' through other records like birth certificates. I know one of my relatives thought his birthday was a couple of days after it actually was. So that's the date he provided in the register.
-
My grandmother celebrated her birthday on 8th April, her birth cert has 5th April, but she said it was 7th April on 1939 register, unless it was mistranscribed onto form by enumerator. She would have filled in her own form as she was at home with youngest child while my grandfather was working away from home.
-
Birth dates are often wrong* on the 1939 register. Especially in transcriptions. It's always worth checking the original image. Ancestry's transcriptions are worse than FindMyPast's in my experience.
*I say wrong, what I mean is they often don't match with what we 'know' through other records like birth certificates. I know one of my relatives thought his birthday was a couple of days after it actually was. So that's the date he provided in the register.
Years are often wrong too.The older generation always liked to add a year on! My mum's birthday was in November,but come the new year she'd do the maths and take her birth year off the current year and tell evryone she was older ;D
When my mother in law died in early 1997 (her birthday was in Aug) her sister in Ireland told everyone that she was 80......but she was in fact only 79......and 5 months.
There was a war on,people weren't THAT concerned about giving the authorities an exact DOB.
Back then, having to give your DOB on every occasion wasn't used so much as we have to today.
Carol
-
All very interesting and informative answers. Sorry I haven't responded but I'm in Santorini trying out my supposed 2.8 Greek dna and attempting to type on my phone
-
One of my Granduncles Christopher was born on 9th Dec 1897, got baptised on 25th Dec of same year.
On school register, his birthday was given as Christmas Day. So BAPTISM date became known as his birthday.
Jfch
-
I have three entries where the years are 20 out.
One could be a simple transposition 86 instead of 68, the other two are 54 & 56 instead of 74 & 76 which is harder to explain.
-
I have three entries where the years are 20 out.
One could be a simple transposition 86 instead of 68, the other two are 54 & 56 instead of 74 & 76 which is harder to explain.
???
There are no ages quoted on the 1939 National Register?
What IS there is a date of Birth, supplied by the person themselves.
-
I have three entries where the years are 20 out.
One could be a simple transposition 86 instead of 68, the other two are 54 & 56 instead of 74 & 76 which is harder to explain.
???
There are no ages quoted on the 1939 National Register?
What IS there is a date of Birth, supplied by the person themselves.
I didn't say they were ages I said they were years!
The day and month were correct but the years were out by 20.
-
I ordered the birth certificate for John James since I only had his supposed birth date from his catholic baptism record. The baptism was in September and his date of birth is down as the 25th August 1889. The birth wasn't registered until October 1889
The birth certificate has his birth as 31st august 1889 which agrees with the corrected date on the 1939 register.
I'm certain they are the same person - both born in Westminster. Father Cornelius, Mother Mary Williams (it's Williams on his baptism record and his godmother is Hanora Williams)
Very odd that the DOB on his baptism is incorrect though ???
-
I ordered the birth certificate for John James since I only had his supposed birth date from his catholic baptism record. The baptism was in September and his date of birth is down as the 25th August 1889. The birth wasn't registered until October 1889
The birth certificate has his birth as 31st august 1889 which agrees with the corrected date on the 1939 register.
I'm certain they are the same person - both born in Westminster. Father Cornelius, Mother Mary Williams (it's Williams on his baptism record and his godmother is Hanora Williams)
Very odd that the DOB on his baptism is incorrect though ???
Don't dismiss the DOB in the Baptism register too quickly.
One has 42 days to register a birth and then may be liable for a fine for a late registration. Check the date of the registration and calculate the interval to the two DOB that you have, a few porkies may have been told to escape a fine.
Of course if the misinformation was discovered and deemed to be wilful there could have been even more serious consequences.
-
I ordered the birth certificate for John James since I only had his supposed birth date from his catholic baptism record. The baptism was in September and his date of birth is down as the 25th August 1889. The birth wasn't registered until October 1889
The birth certificate has his birth as 31st august 1889 which agrees with the corrected date on the 1939 register.
I'm certain they are the same person - both born in Westminster. Father Cornelius, Mother Mary Williams (it's Williams on his baptism record and his godmother is Hanora Williams)
Very odd that the DOB on his baptism is incorrect though ???
Don't dismiss the DOB in the Baptism register too quickly.
One has 42 days to register a birth and then may be liable for a fine for a late registration. Check the date of the registration and calculate the interval to the two DOB that you have, a few porkies may have been told to escape a fine.
Of course if the misinformation was discovered and deemed to be wilful there could have been even more serious consequences.
Thats the case on my great grandfathers birth certificate - official date of birth 42 days before registration - and a week after he was born. Even though he celebrated his birthday on the day - he always put offical date on forms etc -
-
And as in your case his baptism record has the correct one (the 18th not the 25th) - obviously his mother felt it was fine to lie on a legal document to avoid a fine - but not to God (or her son as she didn't confess to him till he was in his 20s and saw his birth certificate)
I remember him telling the story when I was little so definitely the baptism is right and the birth, death certificates are wrong (thanks Uncle Ivor for backing up that lie) as is the 1939 register
-
Always remember that not all people had calendars. Everything cost money and some just did not have it. I am sure that with some people one day just goes into another day. There must be some births recorded by the Registrar that were a few days off.
-
My father in law was born on a Wednesday in June in 1911,in Ennis Ireland.
His father only went into town occasionally.He went in to register the birth and quite a few people bought him a drink to wet the baby's head ya know.
He then went to the Ennis register office and told them that the wife had a baby boy last Wednesday,or was it the one before,ah who cares (they were Irish ya see)
So his birth was registered under one date,but the baptism by their local priest who was advised by his wife (not the drunk husband) of the correct date,had a completely different date of birth a week before!
Carol
-
That would certainly make sense. The only problem is I can't read the date on the birth certificate other than the month and year ::) Might say the twelfth?
-
I would say that says the 12th - which, surprise surprise, is 42 days exactly after 31st Aug
-
I would say that says the 12th - which, surprise surprise, is 42 days exactly after 31st Aug
Another vote for 12th from me too :D
-
I would say that says the 12th - which, surprise surprise, is 42 days exactly after 31st Aug
I'll third that. ;D The twelfth.
-
His death certificate gives his official date of birth - 31st August. I wonder when he actually celebrated his birthday! ;D
-
I've found a few of my ancestors already where the birth day and month is correct but a year out.
-
I've found a few of my ancestors already where the birth day and month is correct but a year out.
I have too. I have mentioned this on earlier threads or maybe earlier on this thread. Even my grandfather and his identical twin brother. Grandad was a year wrong, but great uncle Bertie got it right. I was going back through them to check if there was a pattern.
I have a theory that people then didn't so much keep a record (in their heads) of their actual date of birth, but their birthday (day and month) and their age. So if they were asked dob and they just subtracted age from current year, they would be a year out (one year greater) if they had not yet had their birthday in the current year.
Now to see if my theory fits my rellies
-
Yes I have one rellie who gave 31 Dec 1864 in the 1939 register but it was 31 Dec 1863. Her parents were celebrating her first birthday on 31 Dec 1864. Some may have not kept an account of their actual year of birth but the day and month, and their current age as said, but they may not have known exactly how old they were. Today we seem to need our DOB to open an envelope. ;D
-
A bit of an aside, but related to dob. I went for a hospital appt yesterday. I was asked my dob by the computerised check in system at the outpatients entrance, asked it again by the receptionist when I got to the clinic, and by the consultant who was doing my treatment. Sometimes it's four times, this time the nurse who did the preliminary tests forgot.