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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Mart 'n' Al on Tuesday 05 June 18 15:49 BST (UK)
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I see many requests over the years for help in trying to (dis)prove that two people are one and the same. Many of these requests go 100% unanswered. I've got two of these, but rather than giving specific and extensive details, I thought I'd ask for any general ideas or guidelines.
So, if you've got two sections of timeline that don't coincide at all, relating to someone with the same name, how can you prove or disprove their independence or co-existence? For example I've got a probable ancestor who is in one place in 1860-1880, then elsewhere from 1885 to 1920, but I can't be sure it is the same man, even though his two forenames and surname are the same.
I think many here will be grateful for suggestions.
Martin
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Other than digging and digging to find some connection, I don't think there is a way. It depends on whether you're happy with the balance of probabilities. I take it you've tried tracing the second man backwards, and the first man forwards to see if there are any alternative candidates.
I've got similar scenarios, and my own approach is that if I can't find a definitive link, they stay out.
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It is so hard, Mike. It is almost unlikely that my two people are different people.
Martin
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Other than digging and digging to find some connection, I don't think there is a way. It depends on whether you're happy with the balance of probabilities. I take it you've tried tracing the second man backwards, and the first man forwards to see if there are any alternative candidates.
I've got similar scenarios, and my own approach is that if I can't find a definitive link, they stay out.
What would be a definitive link? I guess we can hardly ever be 100% sure
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Other than digging and digging to find some connection, I don't think there is a way. It depends on whether you're happy with the balance of probabilities. I take it you've tried tracing the second man backwards, and the first man forwards to see if there are any alternative candidates.
I've got similar scenarios, and my own approach is that if I can't find a definitive link, they stay out.
What would be a definitive link? I guess we can hardly ever be 100% sure
Agreed - I realised that after I posted. However, I would need more than the same name and age, before joining two people as one - perhaps finding connections via siblings, witnesses, employer etc.
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Other than digging and digging to find some connection, I don't think there is a way. It depends on whether you're happy with the balance of probabilities. I take it you've tried tracing the second man backwards, and the first man forwards to see if there are any alternative candidates.
I've got similar scenarios, and my own approach is that if I can't find a definitive link, they stay out.
What would be a definitive link? I guess we can hardly ever be 100% sure
Agreed - I realised that after I posted. However, I would need more than the same name and age, before joining two people as one - perhaps finding connections via siblings, witnesses, employer etc.
I think the problem with this sort of thing is when you reach 'dead ends'.
I also only include someone in my tree when I have very definitive 'evidence'. I always think that one error will lead to several more errors.
How would you find out about witnesses or employers?
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My gt grandfather took his mother`s maiden surname when he left his wife and child in the 1890s.
I have not been able to find him on the 1901 Census using that name, although his death certificate
( 1911) gives clear indication that it is him as it states that he was the widower of his first wife
( Scottish records really helpful ) There is no record of a marriage between someone using that name and the name of the first wife.
Just to give me more frustration, he left the Army in March 1901 , if he had held on for another month there would have been more to go on ! The same in 1911, he died in March !!
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I would ask you for the man's details so we could help you but you did say just asking for general ideas or guidelines. I know how you feel, trying to prove it is them or isn't them.
Thanks to a marriage from 1834, I was able to prove that a lady who kept witnessing the marriages of my ancestors older brother and registered his children's deaths was the right lady, and the mother who had remarried after her first hubby died.
Some family historians may "claim" someone but leave a strong note saying "A strong possibility but not yet confirmed". I tend to exclude them if I have no conclusive "evidence".
Last year I struggled to find that a woman born in 1694 was the same woman who wed in 1725 but I managed to keep looking and I then found her mentioned in a will of her sister who also mentioned nieces and nephews of 2 siblings who had died by 1764. I was so pleased.
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.... For example I've got a probable ancestor who is in one place in 1860-1880, then elsewhere from 1885 to 1920, but I can't be sure it is the same man, even though his two forenames and surname are the same.
Martin
Are both men the same age?
Do both men have the same occupation?
Do their families tally (same wife/children)?
Are there registrations of births of two babies with those names in the two places around the same time?
Is there a death for first man in the right area?
Is his a common name?
No will I suppose? :-\
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You could always try for a settlement certificate though I'm not sure whether these were still in use in the late 19th century. I had much the same case with my Grants of Derbyshire. We were so sure that Michael Grant of Chinley on the far west of Derbyshire was the same Michael Grant as later on at Walton on the far east of Derbyshire but couldn't find any evidence until years later when a settlement certificate was found and proved his identity as being one and the same. There were other little facts in the certificate which also helped.
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It's been years since I did any new research but I think applying the "Genealogical Proof Standard" in an unbiased way is the best we can do. I think a key point is doing as much research to find conflicting evidence as supporting evidence for a possible ancestor.
I have a few 'weak links' in my tree but I've marked these and noted any evidence that's lacking or uncertainties. I can't 'prove' these links but they're highly likelely based on the balance of evidence.
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I see many requests over the years for help in trying to (dis)prove that two people are one and the same. Many of these requests go 100% unanswered. I've got two of these, but rather than giving specific and extensive details, I thought I'd ask for any general ideas or guidelines.
So, if you've got two sections of timeline that don't coincide at all, relating to someone with the same name, how can you prove or disprove their independence or co-existence? For example I've got a probable ancestor who is in one place in 1860-1880, then elsewhere from 1885 to 1920, but I can't be sure it is the same man, even though his two forenames and surname are the same.
I think many here will be grateful for suggestions.
Martin
You are fortunate with it being a relatively late period you are trying to prove.
Perhaps the easiest resource would be the Electoral Registers these start in 1832 (and Burgess Rolls) for each year.
You do not mention their age(s) but you could pick up one or the other and work forwards (or backwards) until they are appearing in the wrong place when you know the should be in the other place.
Cheers
Guy
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Thank you all for your interest in this. I will try and add full details later, but it might be a day or two.
Martin
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Thank you all for the various offers of looking at my situation a bit more deeply than I ever hoped for.
My great grandfather George Leggett was born in Lowestoft, specifically a village just to the north, called Corton in 1837, the son of Daniel and Mary Leggett. Daniel was an agricultural labourer and their son George, became a fisherman.
He appears on the 1851 census, as a boy, and then very little is known about him until the early 1890s. In the early 1890s he met a lady, (born Jane Adamson, she had briefly married a 71 year old man Henry Thompson, with whom she had a child, Harry. The 71 year old man died in 1890. She then met my great grandfather, and had six children, plus Harry.) The various birth certificates list his occupation as things such as fishermen, fish dealer, innkeeper, dockyard labourer, ship's plater. There is no doubt that he did make all these career changes! He was either multi-talented or very good at talking himself into a job.
Once slight mystery is that although we have his death certificate for 1921, he is listed as deceased on the marriage certificate of one of his daughters in 1915.
The mystery years are from 1851 to about 1891. It seems very likely that he married a lady, Mary Boynton in Hull in 1861. They soon moved to Scarborough where they had couple of children. He does not appear on the 1871 nor 1881 census. For the rest of her life Mary Boynton, now Mary Leggett lists herself as married, but her husband George Leggett never appears on the census in Scarborough where they lived after their marriage. In 1911 she is still alive, living in Scarborough with her daughter.
George is missing from censuses in 1871 and 1881. Possibly he was at sea, being a fisherman?
In 1891 (a) George Leggett, born 1837, Lowestoft, is living in Hartlepool as a visitor to Thomas Ggarnham and family who have just had two small children born in... Scarborough.
In 1901 the family census is marked 'husband away'.
1911 he is listed as border, widower, living with a friend in Hartlepool. The friend's wife and daughter both came from ...Scarborough.
So we have George Leggett disappearing from Scarborough, and "another" George Leggett probably the same one but I can't be sure, born 1837 in Lowestoft appearing in Hartlepool. For anyone not familiar with the geography, you can travel up the coast from Lowestoft to Hull, Scarborough and Hartlepool as they are just 230-250 miles apart by fishing boat. Whether or not the Hull/Scarborough George Leggett is the same as the Hartlepool George Leggett is causing a family-wide rift. I will probably exceed the character limit if I insert the full details so I will put them in a separate posting immediately after this one.
So was my GGF a phllandering rogue, either deserting wife Mary for Jane (there is no marriage record), or did he have a 'wife' in every port? Or are they two totally different decent men? We even wonder if the statement on the 1915 certificate for his daughter's marriage that he was deceased was as a result of his 'secrets' coming out and being ostracised?
Thank you for your time and efforts. The subsequent post will list the majority of what we know.
PS Update, 16:20 same day. I should also add that on his 1862 marriage certificate, and on the 1896 bc of his son, the registrar has put 'George Leggett's mark' and 'the mark of George Leggett' inferring that he was illiterate. Both documents were completed only by the registrar, i.e. nobody actually signed either document.
Martin
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Continued from my immediately previous post.
Summary of George Daniel Leggett
Name: George Daniel Leggett
Gender: Male
Father: Daniel Leggett
Mother: Mary Ann Farman
Life Events
Birth 18 July 1837 in Corton, Suffolk, England. [1a]
Death 25 February 1921 in School House, Lister Street, West
Hartlepool, Hartlepool, County Durham, England.
Religious
Christening 13 August 1837 in Corton, Suffolk, England. [1a]
Vocational
Occupation Fish Dealer, Lavinia Adamson Leggett's bc, 30 April 1892
in 91, Mile End Road, Westoe, South Shields, County
Durham, England.
Occupation Fishmonger, Violet Mary Leggett's BC, 10 January 1894.
Occupation Inn Keeper, 20 November 1895 in Barningham, County
Durham, England.
Occupation Inn Keeper, Ernest Victor Leggett's bc, 28 October 1896
in Barningham, County Durham, England.
Occupation Dock Labourer, Florence Louise Leggett's bc, 30 October
1899 in Hartlepool, County Durham, England. [2]
Occupation Ship plater's keeper, Thomas William Leggett's bc,
January 1901.
Residence
Census With parents, 30 March 1851 in High Street, Corton,
Suffolk, England. [3a]
Order: 6[3a]
Name: George Daniel Leggett I[3a]
Relation: Son[3a]
Age: 13[3a]
Where Born: Suffolk, Corton[3a]
Census George and Mary in lodging house, 7 April 1861 in 9,
Broadley Square, Hull, East Yorkshire, England. [4a]
Order: 1[4a]
Name: George Daniel Leggett[4a]
Relation: Border[4a]
Condition: Single[4a]
Age: 23[4a]
Occupation: Fisherman[4a]
Where Born: Lowestoft[4a]
Residence Crew List, 11 July 1882 in Scarborough, North Yorkshire.
Residence Crew List, 14 July 1884 in Scarborough, North Yorkshire.
Census With Thomas Garnham and family, late of Scarborough
(births of children), 5 April 1891 in 88, High Street,
Hartlepool, County Durham, England. [5a]
Order: 1[5a]
Name: George Daniel Leggett[5a]
Relation: Visitor[5a]
Condition: Widower[5a]
Age: 53[5a]
Occupation: Fisherman[5a]
Employed: X[5a]
Where Born: Suffolk, Lowestoft[5a]
Census Border, with John Adamson Jenkinson, 2 April 1911 in 29,
Acclom Street, West Hartlepool, Hartlepool, County
Durham, England. [6a]
Order: 3[6a]
Name: George Daniel Leggett[6a]
Relation: Border[6a]
Age: 74[6a]
Condition: Widower[6a]
Occupation: Retired Fisherman[6a]
Where Born: Corton, Suffolk[6a]
Marriages/Children
Mary Boynton
Marriage 20 February 1862 in Holy Trinity, Hull, East Yorkshire,
England.
Children Mary Jane Leggett[7a]
George Boynton Leggett
Jane Adamson
Marriage Possibly not ever married, 1892.
Children Lavinia Adamson Leggett 1892
Violet Mary Leggett
George Daniel Leggett Jr
Ernest Victor Leggett
Florence Louise Leggett
Thomas William Leggett 1901
Attributes
Occupation Master of a Steam Trawler (Occupation Attribute)
Endnotes
1. Latter Day Saints, "FamilySearch"
a: "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database,
FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQXF-FVG :
30 December 2014, George Leggett, 18 Jul 1837); citing
CORTON,SUFFOLK,ENGLAND, index based upon data collected by the
Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm
918,530.
2. Genealogy, "Find my past", (FindMyPast)
3. UK Government, "UK Census 1851"
a: HO107/1805 - 30 March 1851
4. UK Government, "UK Census 1861", (1861)
a: RG9/3589/F? - 7 April 1861
5. UK Government, "UK Census 1891"
a: RG12/4059/~F89 - 5 April 1891
6. UK Government, "UK Census 1911"
a: 2 April 1911
7. "General register Office"
a: LEGGETT, MARY JANE BOYNTON GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in
SCARBOROUGH Volume 09D Page 310
Martin
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Could George have been in prison or an asylum at census dates & listed in censuses just as initials GL?
Is he named in any newspaper reports?
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Josey, we have searched extensively for Leggetts at the BNA with no luck. We've tried numerous 'wrong' spellings of his surname, but nothing as vague as GL or GDL. We have not specifically tried asylums, hospitals and prisons.
I have been routinely logging all 'events' but until today i have not 'narrated' the story. Doing this has swung me from being UNDECIDED to slightly more in favour of it being the same man. And I hate fence-sitters!
Martin
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You say he possibly married in 1862 to Mary Boynton but it looks like it was your guy. On Ancestry, in England Select Marriages I found a George Daniel Leggett in 1862 (aged 24) father Daniel Leggett, married Mary Boynton, 20 Feb 1862 at Holy Trinity, Hull.
Corton, well I know well as I live just 15 miles away. Lucky he just scraped in being born in civil reg, just a couple of weeks after civil reg begun.
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Coombs, yes, that is the man who may or not be the same one as in Hartlepool. We can't tie him to the Hartlepool one to the satisfaction of part of the family. It's odd, I've diligently logged every document and life event that we could find, and I feel it is inconclusive. I am trying to apply the "Genealogical Proof Standard" in an unbiased way, and Electoral Rolls have been incomplete. But...
After writing it as a narrative in my 14:36 post, I am starting to think that Scarborough appears too often for it to be two different men. I look forward to hearing the views of others. Not just views, but also opinions on:
1. Did he desert Mary nee Boynton, or did he live a double life? Why did she continue to describe herself as married? Did she think he was lost at sea? (No evidence found.)
2. Why is he listed as deceased in 1915, when he didn't die for another six years?
3. How/why did he avoid the 1871, 91 and 01 censuses?
Martin
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This is all shaping up as a good mystery to solve, so I have called in the aid of another bloodhound. Between us we have found many a missing census.
People did tend at times to write off close relations that had upset them in one way or another and then went on record saying that their sibling was dead. This has happened to my wife when her brother fibbed and even went off and joined the Foreign Legion. Years ago I had a good friend, now deceased, who at times would say his sister was dead when she wasn't. Such a flippant remark can be overheard and thought to be true. Then remember Laurence Olivier in The Jazz Singer when he dramatically ripped his suit jacket and said his son (Neil Diamond) was dead.
The main reason for missing census is a wrong transcription. We have just had a case where a Benjamin Reed and his family were missing from the 1901 census. By checking all the main family history census indices I found that he was there as named in UKcensus on line. Eventually by trying a search by just the first name 'Benjamin' and other known details, such as age and district, I found him in Ancestry as 'BEED'. FindMyPast was then found by somebody else where he was BIRD, and I got lucky on My Heritage where he was BERD. Still not found on Family Search or FreeCen.
So we'll have a crack at this for you and hopefully ........ especially since my parents retired and passed in a town we loved so much, - Scarborough. Malcolm
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Although you have him in the 1861 census, UKcensus on line also have him in the Crew Lists for that year.
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Malcolm, using my subscription to The Genealogist, I can only see a 26 year old George Leggett, a boatswain from Poole, Dorset. Is that the one to which you refer?
Martin
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Malcolm, using my subscription to The Genealogist, I can only see a 26 year old George Leggett, a boatswain from Poole, Dorset. Is that the one to which you refer?
Martin
UK Census on Line only has the bare minimum - George Leggett Crew List 1861 https://www.ukcensusonline.com/search/index.php?sn=leggett&fn=george&kw=&phonetic_mode=1&event=1861&source_title=Crew+Lists+1861+Census&year=0&range=0&token=zqJXvULo2vya-qp9cQ2Fy1zB_LWQZ41bEhg02mqrle4&search=Search
There are a couple of Family Trees for him on My Heritage and am looking through these at present. Then there is one on Family Search which has his mother as Mary Farman which sounds a bit like Garnham, so must look at these names more closely. Did you have his death - Feb 25 1921 in Hartlepool?
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I think this could be his Obit.
Day after his death and in the Hartlepool paper:
Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail
PUBLIC NOTICES
... illness, Elizabeth Jane (Jennie), beloved wife of J. A. Kuburn. 12, Warrm- street.—lnterment lueeday LEGGETT.—On the iast.. School House, Listex-sUMt, Leggett, age years ate of Scarborough).—Cortegs leave above address 1-46 Monday. MCDONALD.—On 23rd inst. ...
Published: Saturday 26 February 1921
Newspaper: Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail
County: Durham, England
I don't have a subscription to British Newspaper Archives but this will be in Find My Past. If you don't subscribe to either I'll ask fellow bloodhound to have a look.
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This is the full notice:
LEGGETT.—On the 25th inst. at School House, Lister-Street, George Leggett, age 84 years (late of Scarborough).—Cortege to leave above address 1-45 Monday.
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The 1920 electoral registers for Hartlepool show the following:
14 Milton Road, Hartlepool - LEGGETT, Jane, Ernest Victor & George Daniel
Schools Cottage - LEGGETT, George Daniel
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I don't think there is any doubt now about George Daniel Leggett of Corton Suffolk being one and the same as he who died in Hartlepool in 1921, described as 'late of Scarborough' and age 84 which agrees with birth year of 1837.
The 1871 census for his wife Mary and children in Scarborough has Geo B Leggett born Scarborough age 4 months and this agrees with the birth registration -
Births Dec 1870
Legget George Boynton Scarbro' 9d 324
She was still around in 1881 because she appears in UKCensus on Line (below), but when I enter the very same details in My Heritage I get 'No Results'. This then must be a case of a bad transcription and this could explain why George doesn't appear either in the missing census years
Mary Leggett 47 Fisherman's Wife Yorkshire 1834 Scarbro, Yorkshire
Mary J Leggett 13 Scholar Yorkshire 1868 Scarbro, Yorkshire
I don't like any missing pieces so will continue search for the other census's and friend is looking through all other newspaper reports. Malcolm
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Upon reflection this has to be a case of desertion for in 1891 George said he was a Widower and we now know that his wife Mary Leggett was still living in Scarborough as late as 1911 and claiming that she was married.
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Malcolm, you have done very well. I have all this information and hadn't realised that it hadn't appeared in my summary. I have tried to be totally neutral in my assessment of all this as it happened so long before my birth that I'm not really worried what my great-grandfather actually got up to!
Just writing the narrative summary did do a lot to convince me that the Scarborough George and the Hartlepool George are the same person. I do still have a niggling worry that there could have been two Georges born in Lowestoft in 1837 as the Leggett name is quite common in that area. Please keep digging but I agree with what you say, this is a very interesting scenario.
The 1920 electoral records do seem to indicate that they were estranged. I've also seen family In Memoriam notices from 1932 when Jane died, whereas when George died there was nothing in the local papers apart from the funeral notice.
MARTIN
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I just cannot do the quote thing.
However - Mart said " I have tried to be totally neutral in my assessment of all this as it happened so long before my birth that I'm not really worried what my great-grandfather actually got up to! "
I have a gt grandfather who seems to have been a bit wayward. It upsets me to think that his shenanagins led to my gt grandmother, her son and mother, were all left to live in poverty.
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Billy, yes there are 2 sides to it. Yet if my GGF hadn't left his wife and child and found an alternative life, I wouldn't even be here.
Martin
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Yes, I can see how you will be suspicious about there maybe being 2 George Daniel Leggett's born c1837 in the Lowestoft area. Unlikely but a very very small chance of that, and if they were, they may have been first cousins. But I highly doubt there was 2 of them born in that area. If it was George Daniel Smith, then I would worry more.
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Martin, that`s a good thing !!!
It just shows how life can turn.
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Billy, yes there are 2 sides to it. Yet if my GGF hadn't left his wife and child and found an alternative life, I wouldn't even be here.
Martin
You would Martin, you would still be here, only as somebody else. One regular observation from NDE's is that we choose our families. I don't think that happens all the time, but usually in the case of required learning. Latest case reported is all in "The Boy Who Knew Too Much" by Cathy Byrd, published March 2018. The are still making the Movie - see https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6710908/
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We have to remember that things were very different a century ago. It was nigh on impossible for most people to get a divorce. I only discovered fairly recently that my great grandfather was in the same position. His first wife, my great grandmother passed in 1883, and around the end of 1885 he married a younger woman that he had known for years even in Scotland before they all came down to Consett where I was born. What he didn't know was that Ann Eliza, second wife, had only been released from a mental hospital - Kirklands near Bothwell, Scotland, a few months earlier. I checked with the Asylum and they confirmed the dates of her admission and release. So when James made a careless remark when he saw that she was acting strange, she went for him with a knife. That of course led to a parting of the ways and a year later she was with her parents who had migrated to Ohio, USA. She was followed by a young Poacher who married her bigamously in America. James would have found out from his parents who lived close by and so in 1890 he did the same and married bigamously his third wife. I have been unable to trace what happened to her, but by 1891 he described himself as a Widower - just like George Leggett did. Then in 1892 he married a fourth time, bigamously for second wife was still alive in America.
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Just writing the narrative summary did do a lot to convince me that the Scarborough George and the Hartlepool George are the same person. I do still have a niggling worry that there could have been two Georges born in Lowestoft in 1837 as the Leggett name is quite common in that area. Please keep digging but I agree with what you say, this is a very interesting scenario.
The 1920 electoral records do seem to indicate that they were estranged. I've also seen family In Memoriam notices from 1932 when Jane died, whereas when George died there was nothing in the local papers apart from the funeral notice.
MARTIN
Yes I found the proliferation of Leggett's around Lowestoft in this search and even farther afield in Suffolk. The fact that Thomas Garnham was from Suffolk and George was described as a Visitor rather than a Boarder when he stayed with him in Hartlepool suggests some kind of relationship. I have tried to find it but no success as yet.
Here is one example of the many Lowestoft Leggett's and what stands out here is the forename 'Daniel'. I suspect that this family must be cousins?
Name Daniel Leggett
Event Type Census
Event Date 1871
Event Place Lound, Suffolk, England
Enumeration District 18
Gender Male
Age 34
Marital Status Married
Occupation Farm Labourer
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Birth Year (Estimated) 1837
Birthplace Lound, Suffolk
Entry Number 18
Affiliate Image Identifier GBC/1871/1781/0140
Daniel Leggett Head M 34 Lound, Suffolk
Elizabeth Leggett Wife F 28 Somerleyton, Suffolk
Charles Leggett Son M 9 Lound, Suffolk
Daniel Leggett Son M 8 Lound, Suffolk
Samuel Leggett Son M 6 Lound, Suffolk
Laura Leggett Daughter F 4 Lound, Suffolk
Elizabeth Leggett Daughter F 2 Lound, Suffolk
Sarah Leggett Daughter F 0 Lound, Suffolk
We are so lucky when we find children given the middle name from a maternal side. This happened just a couple of days ago with a Sarah Cromack who married a John Wright and they named a child Jane Cromack Wright. In your case we have George's son George Boynton Leggett living with his mother Jane in Scarborough which cements that connection. I haven't been able to find George Boynton Leggett in later years and suspect that he went off to sea quite early.
Cheers Malcolm
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Malcolm, your story is as equally fascinating as mine, and I consider myself really fortunate for you to have found my comments. I think cousins are more than likely, and it is that that gives me my worries.
I wonder what you would make of the other half of the mystery, George Leggett's relationship with Jane Adamson. She seems to have been born in Tudhoe in or around 1860, but there seem to be so many unclear moments in her life before the early 1890s. I could provide the information that I already know comma but I would rather tell you nothing in the hope that your findings will match mine.
Time for bed but she is as much a mystery as George. Thank you so much, genuinely, for your interest.
She seems an interesting lady, and I really hope that what I have found out about her is true, and that your research matches mine. Thank you again.
Martin
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Martin, I did notice the name Jane Adamson and meant to dig into that. Anyway I'll have a search today, hopefully helped by my friend in NSW who also loves a good hunt.
Cheers Malcolm
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Hi Martin, Durham Records online have just emailed me to let me know that someone else who has the same ISP provider as myself in Australia has also looked at the cemetery record for George Daniel Leggett. I have emailed them and shall of course let you know if I get a response which may hopefully help fill in some of the missing parts.
All the best, Malcolm
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Malcolm, I do have a half cousin in Australia, grandson of one of George's sons, like I am. It might be him.
Martin
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Malcolm, I do have a half cousin in Australia, grandson of one of George's sons, like I am. It might be him.
Martin
I haven't had a reply yet, though he or she is also with Bigpond (part of our Telstra). Name begins with 'Ran..'.
Sharon and I have found many records and are still working out what it all means. Are you sure that Henry Thompson was 71 when he passed? I can only see death registrations around South Shields and Gateshead for a much younger Henry Thompson, and the marriage was in 1889, with their son also Henry born about a year later.
In your summary you have it that the 1901 census was marked with 'husband away'. I think you must mean the family of Leggett's in Hartlepool rather than Mary Legget and daughter in Scarborough? Still haven't got the 1901 census for Hartlepool.
Cheers Malcolm
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Malcolm, there is a good chance that Ran... is another half cousin in Australia. Two and a half years ago she contacted me and helped me discover many secrets of my family, including the fact that we shared a grandmother who had a rather exotic love life in the 1930s.
I will look into the Henry Thompson age at death but I think I am correct.
The husband away entry did refer to George Leggett.
Bedtime here. Probably more tomorrow. Thank you for your work so far.
Martin
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Malcolm,
Henry Thompson, 71, widower of 69 Bedford St., N. Shields and Jane Adamsom, 29, of 68 Morton St., S. Shields married on 13th March 1889.
I have the probate entry for Henry's death on 27th Feb 1891, at 68 Morton St., S. Shields.
Their son, Henry Adamson Thompson was born GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 697.
Martin
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Then must be the Henry Thompson who died in Morpeth age 75 in first qtr of 1891. That would mean that the age should either be 73 on death or 73 when he married in 1889.
First Leggett/Adamson child birth:
Births Jun 1892
Leggett Lavinia Adamson S. Shields 10a 827
So George and Jane were together very soon after the death of Henry.
I see that the 'Husband Away' remark is on the 1911 census.
I would imagine that the Thompson family next door - 66 Morton Street South Shields would be that of the son of Henry Thompson Snr. Also interesting that in 1891 Jane took in a French Boarder.
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I really should pay more attention to the thoughts and signs I’m given. Last couple of days my mind has been going continuously to Harry Potter (HRY PTAH in Ancient Egypt - HR was turned into Horus by the Greeks and the suffix 'Y' means 'He Who is', something like adding 'y' to names in English). Ptah was the name for God as a Creator and Potter.
Looks now like they have been trying to get me to think ‘Potter’ in regard to this search.
I think I am much mistaken in supposing that Anthony Adamson was the father of Jane Adamson. You will recall that that Jane Adamson was only aged 6 in the 1871 census and birth was shown as Newfield and not Tudhoe. The grand-daughter in the 1861 census has Jane as 1 year old and born Tudhoe.
It was Ann, the daughter in the Adamson family who was the mother of Jane and not one of the boys. Jane must have been her illegitimate daughter.
Ann eventually married Edwin Potter and they lived in Middlesborough – the 1871 census shows Jane still with her Adamson surname and born in Tudhoe aged 10 which agrees better with the 1861 census.
In 1881 looks like Jane was a servant with a family in Shildon. Birthplace given as Spennymoor but that would be the district for Tudhoe, they're right next door. Age is given as 18 which is about 2 years out.
Only thing that is a bit disturbing is that later on in South Shields and Hartlepool she said she was born Durham City.
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Malcolm, you have confirmed all my findings and concerns so far. I am not happy about the 2-year discrepancy, but I know these things do happen. Would you look into Edwin and Ann a bit deeper, together and separately, to see if you make the same discoveries as me? I won't give you any clues!
I also wonder why Jane stayed Adamson, rather than becoming a Potter. Any ideas?
Martin
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Many thanks for the PM, all helps to understand what may have been going on. I feel there is quite a bit to unearth as yet. One big thing that keeps me wanting to discover more is that I am always trying to get a feeling for how they all lived in years gone by and especially the hardships they had to endure.
Jane may have felt a bit excluded from the Potter family which could explain why she went down to Shildon to work as a live in servant. I think Edwin must have been fairly well off judging by occupation 'Contractor' and then a 'Civil Engineer' in 1891. North Ormesby Street Middlesborough is now very much industrial so I can only find No. 80 in Google Street View - https://www.google.com/maps/@54.5735628,-1.2237987,3a,75y,132.08h,89.7t,359.33r/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slXmOWCDnVB2YZyBL4g_ekQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DlXmOWCDnVB2YZyBL4g_ekQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D133.63582%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 somewhat distant from No.52.
21 West Terrace North Ormesby (1891) has gone now but judging by some of the older houses still standing down the street, it was a fairly wealthy area.
So now to dig further, Malcolm
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Another day with some strange finds and a great newspaper report on North Sea Fishing by Edmond Jenkinson, father of John Adamson Jenkinson.
My thoughts now after today's search. Edwin Potter was at 7 Mount Pleasant Tudhoe, Spennymoor in 1861 which was no great distance from the Black Horse Inn where Anne Adamson was the landlord's daughter aged 20 and Jane g/dtr just aged 1 year. Edwin married Anne Adamson in first quarter of 1863.
So big question is whether Edwin could be the father of Jane. Don't think we'll be able to solve that.
I have spent much time today trying to discover the connection between John Adamson Jenkinson and Jane - since George Leggett stayed with him in Hartlepool - but there are so many people who ended up with Adamson as a second name and one of these was Jane Adamson Edmond born first qtr of 1843 in Scarborough.
In the News Report Edmond Jenkinson made a big outcry against Trawlers in 1883, who were fishing inshore and destroying the livelihood of local fishermen. That could be why we find him as Master of a Clipper the Eliza Olive in 1861 although he clearly went back to fishing out of Filey or Scarborough - to be with his family.
Adjacent column in the York Herald to the Fishing Investigation was about Stormy Weather and one ship was the Eva POTTER !!
Think I'll call it a day just now, All the best, Malcolm
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Malcolm, and anybody else interested, we seem to be mirroring our research, but bearing in mind the genealogical proof standard, can we be sure that Jane Adamson born to Ann Adamson is the same one who fathered 6 children with George Leggett. I like to think that Edwin Potter was her father.
Jane's 1889 marriage certificate shows her father as Edward ADAMSON, Engineer. This was completed by the registrar, who perhaps just assumed this if Jane gave her name as JANE ADAMSON, and the father's name as just EDWARD ADAMSWON. I think the Edwin/Edward conflict is a clerical mistake. BUT there are different family views on this. The fact that the father's occupation is listed as ENGINEER convinces me that this is the right Jane, but it causes debates.
The absence of the Potters as witnesses also troubles me a bit, but perhaps they didn't approve of the age difference, 29 to 71. Likewise the marriage taking place in Shields and not Middlesbrough.
I would also be interested in your research on the Potters' daughter, Lydia. And her subsequent husband. I won't say more yet.
Martin
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Another day with some strange finds and a great newspaper report on North Sea Fishing by Edmond Jenkinson, father of John Adamson Jenkinson.
For anyone else, this was dated 21st Dec 1883. Thanks Malcolm.
Martin
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So far today, Martin I have concentrated on trying to pin down Henry Thompson, but there doesn't seem to be any death in 1890 we can link to him. There was another Thompson family living right next door to Jane and her son Henry in 1891, but again can't find a connection.
Who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate in 1889? That could help.
Sharon has been looking at Lydia and found Benjamin Rowntree etc.
However one thing that does disturb me is that Jane Adamson of South Shields gives her place of birth as Durham City and there is a registration in the first quarter of 1860 that could be her.
Only way to check is to try and rule out Durham city as place of birth and that will mean finding an Adamson family in the City in 1861.
Cheers Malcolm
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Well, Sharon has now found Henry and his wife Mary Thompson in the 1871 and 1881 census living in Tynemouth. From that there are two possible deaths for Mary - last qtr of 1886 and first qtr of 1889, only that was the same qtr that he married Jane, so more likely to be 1886 for Mary.
Some more questions that may help. Did you ever find a will for Henry? As a coal agent we think there would have been a bit of money.
It does seem likely that Jane benefitted because we can see that she was granted the Licensee of the General Jackson in Hartlepool in February, 1899. Have you looked into her application for the license? Could tell us something.
Looking at the 1901 and 1911 census again, Jane called herself Thompson in 1901 but Leggett in 1911. In the latter she doesn't just say born Durham, Durham, but born Durham City. If this is true then she cannot be the Tudhoe Jane.
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Malcolm, I have an announcement in the Shields Daily Gazette for the 28th of January 1891 announcing the death of Henry Thompson,
"At his residence 68 Morton Street South Shields on the 26th in Henry Thompson late of North Shields friends please accept this the only intimation those who intend to follow his remains to the Preston Cemetery will please meet the funeral on the arrival of the 230 ferry at North Shields on Thursday the 29th."
I also have a probate notice dated 27th of February 1891 stating his personal Estate was just under Ł42:
"Administration of the personal Estate of Henry Thompson late of 68 Morton Street South Shields in the county of Durham, Cole agent, who died 26th of January 1891 at 68 Morton Street was granted at Durham to Jane Thompson of 68 Morton Street widow the relict."
The Morton Street address corresponds with the marriage certificate.
I also have another document, listing the proprietors of the General Jackson from 1866 to 1909, and this shows Mrs J Leggett being the proprietor from 1900 to 1901. I confess to not having a citation for this document!
My two concerns are the census where she appears as a servant, with an age discrepancy, and also the discrepancy between Tudhoe and Durham City. High Street Hartlepool is on the Headland, quite close to the St Helens Place address listed on the 1901 census.
I confirm that my research showed that Lydia Potter married Benjamin Seebohm Rowntree of the chocolate firm. I also have evidence that Edwin and and Potter were Quakers, as were the Rowntree family. I wonder if Jane's connections with the licensed trade, and her marriage to a much older man were sufficient grounds for Edwin and Ann Potter to disassociate themselves from Jane, or is it a different Jane?
Are my two concerns enough to make this whole piece of research unreliable?
16:20 update
I thought I should mention this one, the dob is totally wrong, but she was born in the city centre and was an inn keeper.
Forename Surname Age Year Born Relation Birth Place Occupation
Jane Adamson 60 1821 Head St Oswolds, Durham Inn Keeper
I think we can rule her out, but noteworthy.
I also found two more Jane Adamsons, born about 1860 in New Field and West Rainton, but these are not Durham City any more than Tudhoe is.
You asked, "Who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate in March 1889?" Robert Dunn and Sarah Breivis / Brewis, at Queen Street Methodist Chapel, S Shields.
Martin
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is it a different Jane?
I thought I should mention this one, the dob is totally wrong, but she was born in the city centre and was an inn keeper.
Forename Surname Age Year Born Relation Birth Place Occupation
Jane Adamson 60 1821 Head St Oswolds, Durham Inn Keeper
I think we can rule her out, but noteworthy.
You asked, "Who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate in March 1889?" Robert Dunn and Sarah Breivis / Brewis, at Queen Street Methodist Chapel, S Shields.
Martin
Hi Martin,
Well I do now think it is a different Jane and I've spent much of the day trying to learn more and more about her.
We can start here with this find:
Marriages Mar 1845
Adamson Robert Newtle Tyne 25 313
SMITH Jane Newcastle T. 25 313
Why they would have married in Newcastle is a bit of a mystery since both were born and living in Durham City. I've found all the relevant census entries.
It could be that Jane went to Jarrow/South Shields to work and established some connections there. I still haven't pursued the Dunn and Brewis names, but they could be relevant in this search.
Jane's father Thomas Smith was a Carpet Weaver born in Sedgefield Durham but living in Durham City from an early date since dtr Jane was born there -
Baptisms, Durham District
Record Number: 617912.0
Location: Durham City
Church: St. Margaret
Denomination: Anglican
29 Sep 1822 Jane Smith, of Framwellgate, daughter of Thomas (weaver) & Elizabeth Smith
as was -
Baptisms, Durham District
Record Number: 618256.0
Location: Durham City
Church: St. Margaret
Denomination: Anglican
15 Apr 1827 Robert Henry Jefferson Adamson, of Crossgate, son of James (mason) & Margaret Adamson, private baptism 9 Apr 1825
There is only one thing that is a bit out of synch. with this family and that is the age of their daughter Jane Adamson 5 years old in the 1861 census. Robert Adamson was both a Mason and an Innkeeper so that latter occupation ran in the family for a long time.
This could be her birth:
Births Sep 1856
Adamson Jane Durham 10a 228
We can find Jane with sons Robert James and William still in Durham City in 1881 which is the same census you refer to above and the gateway to this line of search. But no sign of Jane at this time. She will be there somewhere, probably a mis-transcription of her name.
As for George and his two ladies, well it does look very much like he was seeing both at much the same time. Mary in Scarborough always described herself as married even years later, and Jane up in Hartlepool did go back to the Thompson surname in 1901 but reverted to Leggett in 1911. That is a small indication, but worth keeping in mind.
Hope this helps a bit, Malcolm
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The father of witness Sarah Ann Brewis was Thomas Thompson born Dunstanburgh near Embleton Northumberland around 1810. So possible that Henry was Sarah's Uncle.
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Robert Dunn is in 1891 census age 26 born South Shields with wife Grace Dixon born Dunston (possibly same Dunstan as Thomas Thompson - only wrong county given), age 25. They married in Chorlton Manchester where their son Robert was born. Grace could be another relative of Henry Thompson.
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Robert Dunn is in 1891 census age 26 born South Shields with wife Grace Dixon born Dunston (possibly same Dunstan as Thomas Thompson - only wrong county given), age 25. They married in Chorlton Manchester where their son Robert was born. Grace could be another relative of Henry Thompson.
There is another point which could be a strong pointer to the whereabouts of Jane Adamson/Thompson/Leggett from 1881 to 1889. We know she was in South Shields early 1889 to marry Henry Thompson. But her mother Jane Adamson went to Jarrow for the birth of her son William in 1866, and there again Robert Adamson married Jane in Newcastle although both were born and bred in Durham City.
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Malcolm, I have read your recent additions to this thread and I thank you greatly for your continued interest. However I am still 50/50 ambivalent about whether Jane Adamson who grew up with the Potter family in Middlesbrough is the same as the one who lived with George Leggett in the 1890s and early 20th century.
I accept that there is a discrepancy between her birthplace on the early census forms, as Tudhoe, and the later ones showing Durham City comma but there is not really anything else to show that these are different people. As the 1800s progressed into the 20th century and Durham expanded, it might be natural to say that she was born in Durham City, although I accept that Tudhoe is still a few miles away from the actual city centre. I am not convinced that there is enough information to prove that Jane from Tudhoe is different from Jane from Durham.
But I am still 50-50 . And I thank you again for your comments plus those from anybody else who may have something to add. My cousin in Australia points out that I could equally describe my place of birth as Dartford Kent, but as times have changed Dartford is now on the edge of Greater London.
Martin
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Hi Martin, I see your points but I just don't feel at all happy with accepting a different birth place when the person in question stresses another place more than once. We all tend to name a nearby city when we know that others wouldn't have ever heard of the town we were born in, but a census is different. The Census taker is from the very same county and often knows where each village lies. They might write down just 'Durham' as we see with Jane in 1891, but not Durham Durham as she has in 1901 and definitely not Durham (city) as we see in 1911.
Unfortunately it is a long process when one has to investigate all other possibilities. We can toss out the Robert H J Adamson family now as that Jane died in 1909, but it took time to establish that.
Didn't Jane name her father on her marriage certificate to Henry Thompson? Did she tell them she was a 'Spinster'? If she did that may not be true. If born in 1860 she would have been 29 in 1889 so plenty of time for an intervening marriage.
I've come across these situations so many times and one jumps back into my mind - Eliza Ann Montgomery whom my widowed gt.grandfather married in 1885. When she migrated to America she said she was Elizabeth Millsop, ignoring both maiden name and last married name - even though still married to my gt.grandfather James Draffan.
It isn't just the birthplace she gave that makes me uneasy with the Tudhoe Jane. Why can't we find her in 1881? I have searched over and over and nothing anywhere near. The reason the Robert Adamson Jane eluded us was because she became Jane Swalwell, so I can't help feeling that Adamson was Jane's married name.
I have some thoughts as to how to crack this, but am called to focus on something else this morning.
All the best, Malcolm
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The 1920 electoral registers for Hartlepool show the following:
14 Milton Road, Hartlepool - LEGGETT, Jane, Ernest Victor & George Daniel
Schools Cottage - LEGGETT, George Daniel
Jomot, I somehow missed your comment. That George Daniel Leggett is almost definitely his son, born 1895.
Martin
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Malcolm, in your Saturday 09 June 18 22:51 BST (UK) Post, you mentioned George Boynton Leggett. I didn't notice that, but he died in childhood. He can be disregarded.
You also mentioned the Jane born in Newfield. That is about as far out of Durham City as Tudhoe is, so again I can't see how the Jane with George Leggett could be born there and describe herself later as born in Durham City.
Throughout the 1890s and into the 20th century Jane seems to use whichever surname she fancied at the time. Even in 1900 when her 6th child, my grandfather, was born she used the name Thompson.
On the marriage certificate for Jane's marriage to Henry Thompson she lists her father has Edward Adamson, engineer, and herself as spinster. I do accept that for a young woman to be still single, spinster, at 29 in those days, is a little bit unusual, but perhaps she was just choosy!
Martin
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The 1920 electoral registers for Hartlepool show the following:
14 Milton Road, Hartlepool - LEGGETT, Jane, Ernest Victor & George Daniel
Schools Cottage - LEGGETT, George Daniel
Jomot, I somehow missed your comment. That George Daniel Leggett is almost definitely his son, born 1895.
Hi Martin,
There are two separate George Daniel Leggett's mentioned - one at Milton Road with Jane (I assumed this was the son) and the other at Schools Cottage. The death notice had his address as School House, Lister Street, which may be the same property.
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Jomot, yes, for whatever reason, they were not living together at that time. I wish I knew why. I don't think it suggests marital (if they WERE EVER actually married) harmony.
Martin
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The 1920 electoral registers for Hartlepool show the following:
14 Milton Road, Hartlepool - LEGGETT, Jane, Ernest Victor & George Daniel
Schools Cottage - LEGGETT, George Daniel
Jomot, I somehow missed your comment. That George Daniel Leggett is almost definitely his son, born 1895.
Hi Martin,
There are two separate George Daniel Leggett's mentioned - one at Milton Road with Jane (I assumed this was the son) and the other at Schools Cottage. The death notice had his address as School House, Lister Street, which may be the same property.
The George Daniel Leggett at the Schools Cottage was 83 the following year when he died!
Cemetery Registers, Hartlepool District - Record Number: 1143940.12
Location: Hartlepool
Cemetery: Stranton Grange Cemetery
Denomination: any
28 Feb 1921 George Daniel Leggett, of School House, Lister Street, age: 83
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Malcolm, in your Saturday 09 June 18 22:51 BST (UK) Post, you mentioned George Boynton Leggett. I didn't notice that, but he died in childhood. He can be disregarded.
On the marriage certificate for Jane's marriage to Henry Thompson she lists her father has Edward Adamson, engineer, and herself as spinster. I do accept that for a young woman to be still single, spinster, at 29 in those days, is a little bit unusual, but perhaps she was just choosy!
Martin
I've been so deep in another search during the last few days it is taking me time to bring back all thoughts on Jane. However I think I brought up the George Boynton Leggett because it connected his mother to Mary Boynton.
I don't think you mentioned the name of her father on the Marriage certificate before, Martin, so were in the dark on that one.
Cheers Malcolm
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Malcolm, I didn't want to put words into your mouth, so to speak. I wanted to see if you reach similar conclusions to me. I am still undecided if 'Tudhoe' Jane is 'Hartlepool' Jane. As of today I have proof that she was definitely landlady of the General Jackson pub in Hartlepool. The building number on an electoral roll matched her daughter's birth cert.
Which way do you swing so far?
Martin
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Hi Martin, out of interest, do you have the birth certificate for 'Tudhoe Jane'? The District for Tudhoe at the time was Durham so I assume it's this one:
ADAMSON, JANE (no mmn) GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 261
It would be interesting to know what her actual place of birth was, rather than just what is said in the census.
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Jomot,
Yes, it came yesterday. She was born in the Black Horse Inn, Tudhoe, in the Parish of St Oswald. Tudhoe is at the extreme south of the parish, near Croxdale. I am now a LITTLE bit more convinced that she is Hartlepool Jane. The parish church is in the heart of Durham City, five miles north of Tudhoe. Or am I just clutching at straws?
The early census forms would have been completed by her parents, then, when she is an adult, PERHAPS she referred to the position of the baptismal church when she completed the census? George Leggett was illiterate.
What are your views now?
Martin
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I think there is a high likelihood that they are the same person.
One thing that struck me on the GRO copy of the marriage certificate, from a tree on Ancestry, is that the name 'Edward' looks like it's been written in afterwards, so it's possible that the original does say Edwin but is badly written. It's a small detail but an important one, as illegitimate children often used a step-father's forename & occupation on a marriage certificate. Have you been able to get hold of the original church copy?
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Jomot, that is an interesting observation. Again, I'm trying to be totally neutral. 'Edward' (at the right end of the image) does look a little bit squeezed in, and possibly even with a different pen, (or possibly needing dipping in ink), and Adamson is a little bit higher, but then I noticed that all the surnames are a fraction higher. I've attached a copy for the enjoyment of others. I might be able to visit the actual church later this year.
For what it is worth, I think Tudhoe Jane and Hartlepool Jane are the same, but not all the family share my view, and I agree that it is not conclusive enough for me. YET.
The fact that Tudhoe Jane was raised by Edwin Potter, former blacksmith (probably a colliery blacksmith, not a 'horseshoe' blacksmith) and contractor, married to Anne Adamson, and Hartlepool Jane names her father as an engineer does a lot to swing it for me, but I want more. (I assume that either the registrar assumed her father was called Adamson, rather than Potter, or perhaps Jane said it was Adamson to appear 'more respectable'. She appears as Adamson on the Potter census entries, even though Edwin Potter married Anne Adamson.
Martin
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According to their User Guide the registers for Queen Street Chapel are with Tyne & Wear Archives - might be worth seeing if they can send you a digital copy?
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Jomot,
Thank you, I will look into this. Would that clinch it for you, if it was blank or Edwin?
Martin
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If it said Edwin then yes, I think it would.
Lavinia Leggett's birth certificate places Jane in Mile End Road, Westoe in April 1892, which is very close to the Morton Road address where Jane was with Henry Thompson - less than half a mile according to Google.
It's not impossible for two people of the same name & age to live so close to each other (I was at school with someone of the same name & age), but it would be a coincidence too far if they both had a father/step-father named Edwin.
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Jomot, I know what you mean. I've encountered two other Martin Watsons, one at my GP's surgery!.
My Australian cousin (it is probably his records you found) just sent me an electoral roll page that confirms that another daughter was born at the pub we believed was run by Jane. It seemed likely, but the certificate said 19 High Street, Hartlepool, but we didn't know the street number of the pub.
You are so kind helping me like this. If ever you need any PC advice, I might be able to help. Keep digging!! I have contacted the T&W Archive.
Martin
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I have seen some terrible transcriptions and one yesterday was horrific. I was trying to find the 1851 census for Benjamin Read and his family. In the end I focussed on one of the sons, 'Walter', and then it came up in My Heritage with his name transcribed as 'MARY'. Alright it isn't very clear but when the very next entry reads 'Wife', surely whoever did this should have taken a second look?
I'm still not convinced about Jane. Like you Martin, I need something more substantial to link her to the Potter Family. In 1881 Edwin was a 'Contractor' and though I can't put my finger on it at the moment I think I did read a news report of him being an Engineer. However I have found in my own family and elsewhere that people quite often used the 'Engineer' occupation to make it appear that they had some higher qualification.
If Jane had just said 'Durham' I wouldn't have so much doubt, but she stressed it and even said 'City' which is a far cry from an outlying village. We have the very same puzzle in the Reed/Read search where the illegitimate girl is named Hannah Wilson sometimes and other times Hannah Ritchie. Her birth certificate reads birthplace 'Toft Hill', but in every census she says she was born at Cornsay which is far to the north of Toft Hill and near Tow Law and Consett.
In 1871 and in 1881 when Jane was 10 years old and then missing, the Potters lived in Middlesborough, so again far from Durham City.
Another thing that worries me is the age of Henry Thompson and where is he in any earlier census. We can be fairly sure that he did die in 1890, but there is no record of any Henry Thompson anywhere near that age. Then the Thompson family living right next door to Jane in 1891 - how were they related?
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Malcolm, Yes, it could be Mary or Benj'n, but the next column should have helped.
The Potter/Adamson connection might just be a coincidence, but, still being neutral, I can't find her anywhere else afterwards, other than with George Leggett. I'm still working on eliminating other Jane Adamsons.
Edwin Potter was definitely an engineer. He was an expert witness ("the engineer at the works") in the inquest following an accident at Cleveland Chemical Works where he worked, following the horrific death of a fireman at the plant. Edwin and his wife were prominent Quakers in Middlesbrough.
I can't find anything to dispute the connection of Tudhoe/Hartlepool Jane, apart from the age discrepancy when she was a domestic in 1881. But that isn't enough for me.
I am also unable to account for "Edward" nor "Adamson" earlier nor later. But again that isn't enough for me.
Martin
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Jomot, I just want to clarify that there is no doubt at all that Jane who married Henry Thompson is the same one who gave birth to 6 children with George Leggett.
I need to connect her back to Tudhoe, 1860, and Ann Adamson, later married to Edwin Potter, probably Jane's father.
Martin
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Yes, I realised after my post that some of it was superfluous, as what we need is evidence that the Jane who married Henry was also the Jane born in Tudhoe.
Fingers crossed that the original marriage record provides some clarity re Edwin/Edward, although personally I doubt that Edwin Potter was Jane's biological father.
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Sorry if I'm going over old ground here, but returning to the 1881 census for the Jane Adamson aged 18 born Spennymoor - have you ruled out this being the Jane Adamson mmn Laverick born Q4 1861?
This Jane had a sister named Martha born in 1868, which leads to a family in Whitworth in 1871 with daughter Jane shown as aged 7, born Tudhoe. She seems to have married Alfred William Holliday in 1883, and the census has her age as 28, 38, 48 - so a good match for the Jane aged 18 in 1881. The 1901 census also has PoB as Spennymoor.
Either way we seem to have two Jane Adamsons born Tudhoe 1860/61, but I can only find one in the 1881 census.
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Must admit I've been drawn to John Adamson born Wolsingham living Whitworth in 1851, a widower in 1861 with dtr Jane born Tudhoe. But which 1901 census? I'm looking at the one for Jane Thompson with son Henry Thompson and host of Leggett children, showing her born Durham, Durham.
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By 1901 she is Jane Holliday aged 38 living in Whitworth/Spennymoor.
I think she is more likely the 1881 Jane, leaving 'our' Jane Adamson missing.
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Yes that look's pretty certain and means we still have to find Jane in 1881 at least. For what its worth I came across a Martha Adamson age 23 in 1891 working as a Servant to a Bruce family in Middlesbrough.
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Did we ever establish whether Adamson may have been Jane's married name by an earlier marriage? Did she say 'Spinster' on her marriage to Henry Thompson? For instance there was a Jane Hutchinson who married Jacob Adamson 2nd qtr of 1881 in Durham, and looks like he may have died in 1887.
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Yes, her marriage certificate in 1889 says Jane Adamson spinster aged 29, and the birth certificate for the first Leggett child has her as Leggett late Thompson formerly Adamson.
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Let's try a different tack, since we are sailing against the prevailing winds. In 1911 Jane was one of 8 people in her family residing at 174 Alma Street, West Hartlepool and although someone has written 'Husband Away' across this page, he was hardly more than a few sheets to windward. At this very same time George was staying with John Adamson Jenkinson at 29 Acclom Street. I have found them both on an old map of Hartlepool and they are not too far apart. So was George just in from the sea and staying with a relative of Jane's because there was no room at the Inn, or were they really separated? If so then wouldn't she have got to know from John Adamson Jenkinson?
I have tracked J A J in the past to his family in Filey, but never as yet found how he got his middle name. I think that is paramount now, and you never know, finding his Adamson family may lead us to Jane's.
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A rather odd coincidence, except I do not believe in Coincidences. They are managed somehow.
I was deep in the search for the wives of Edmond Jenkinson, father of John ADAMSON Jenkinson, when I had to let the nurse out who had just called to dress Ilse's heel blister. At the door she asked me how Ilse's name is pronounced, and she had thought it was 'Elsa' which she recalled from a Movie. I thought she meant 'Born Free' about the Lion, 'Elsa', but she didn't know that movie and was thinking of another.
When I returned to computer I took a look at the IMDB page on Born Free and yes the Lion was called 'Elsa', but the main characters were Joy and George ADAMSON.
This tells me that I am on the right track. Edmond Jenkinson married twice - first of all to Nancy Jenkinson in 1860 but she died in 1863 and he then married Jane Harper in 1865. John Adamson Jenkinson was born in Filey in 1867.
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Thank you for your continued efforts. I am working through your comments and suggestions.
Martin
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We are getting somewhere Martin. Just before I gave up late yesterday I found what seems to be the connection between the Jenkinson's of Filey and some Adamson's anyway. Sent it to my fellow blood hound and she has discovered a bit more which I have yet to examine.
Just look at the 1881 census for 119 Chapel Lane Filey. There you will find Head of family a Robert Colley age 55 with wife Betsey Colley age 58, along with 9 year old grand-daughter Mary J. Jenkinson and Mother-in-law Jand Adamson age 89.
From this I guess that Betsey's maiden name was Adamson and possibly she had a sister who married a Jenkinson.
Like I said I don't believe in coincidences, so the fact that George Legget was visiting John Adamson Jenkinson in 1891 and the said John Adamson was from Filey, with George's de facto wife Jane Adamson living not far away, must surely mean something.
We need to look closer at the Adamson family who were in Hunmanby near Filey in 1841. At that time John and Jane Adamson did have a daughter Betsey living with them.
Liklihood is that that Betsey's sister married a Jenkinson and they went to Durham City. George's wife Jane could even have been Jane Adamson Jenkinson thought that is possibly stretching ideas a bit far. Nevertheless it remains a possibility.
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Malcolm , This sounds really good. I could find no connection between John Adamson Jenkinson and anyone who could have given him his middle name, despite looking at Hunmanby. I have a very busy weekend ahead but I will try and look into this as much as I can but certainly no later than Monday. You and the bloodhound are amazing.
Martin
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I'm fOllowingthis with interest
I don't think the fact that George loggers daughter recorded him as deceased in 1915 is a big problem she may not have known.he was still alive .
Interesting that his 1st daughter also had middle name of Adamson
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I'm fOllowingthis with interest
Interesting that his 1st daughter also had middle name of Adamson
Thank you Lavinia, I had missed that. I have been looking at the Garnham family with whom George also stayed for one census, but looks like no connection at all there.
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There may be a connection to the Garnham family after all. In 1841 the Adamson's were only about 4 doors away from a Shepherd Family in North Street, Hunmanby. Thomas Garnham married Margaret Annie Shepherd. Her Family Tree and that of Thomas Garnham is on Family Search.
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Jane and George's 1900 son Thomas William, my grandfather, actually had Thompson on his bc. I am puzzled by the name swapping.
My THEORY is that Jane and George had some sort of row. That would explain why George was away in 1911 and was listed as deceased on Lavinia's 1915 marriage certificate, as well as Thomas William being a Thompson. But I have no evidence.
Martin
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We're getting a bit closer to sorting them all out, Martin. For instance there was a Jane Colley (married) age 23 lodging with the Jenkinson's in Filey in 1851. Remember Betsey Colley was the daughter of John and Jane Adamson.
However this find is I think more encouraging. John Adamson appears as a Blacksmith in Filey from 1841 to 1871 and then can't find him in 1881- naturally since Jane is now a Widow. In 1871 he was a Blind Blacksmith!! Most census ages place his birth in 1801, e.g. 60 in 1861. However 1871 has him as 68 which would be possibly 1802/3.
Now look at this -
Deaths Dec 1876
ADAMSON John 76 Tynemouth 10b 105
So born circa 1800. Could this be the same John Adamson - living just across the Tyne from Jane Adamson?
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Malcolm, bedtime here. Perhaps sleep will allow me to get used to the idea of a blind blacksmith! A nasty accident?
The parents of Tudhoe Anne Adamson were John and Martha Adamson...
Martin
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Edmond Jenkinson that married Jane Harper and they had son John Adamson Jenkinson.
Jane Harper Jenkinson's Father was John Harper and her mother was Betsey Adamson, Betsey's father was John Adamson. John Harper's father was Robert Harper.
John and Betsey married Hunmandy in 1841.
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Hunmanby..... soz....typo
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Edmond Jenkinson that married Jane Harper and they had son John Adamson Jenkinson.
Jane Harper Jenkinson's Father was John Harper and her mother was Betsey Adamson, Betsey's father was John Adamson. John Harper's father was Robert Harper.
John and Betsey married Hunmanby in 1841.
Jane Harper could be Jane Adamson, daughter of John Adamson and his wife who was also Betsey.
Name Jane Adamson
Gender Female
Christening Date 09 Aug 1829
Christening Date (Original) 09 AUG 1829
Christening Place HUNMANBY,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Adamson
Mother's Name Jane
But for there to be a Jane Adamson related to John Adamson Jenkinson we need a male son of the senior John Adamson and Jane, and here he is:
Name John ... Adamson
Residence Place Hull, York, England
Gender Male
Christening Date 26 Jul 1819
Christening Date (Original) 26 Jul 1819
Christening Place Kingston Upon Hull, York, England
Father's Name John Adamson
Mother's Name Jane
As for the daughter Betsey, here she is:
Name Betsey Adamson
Gender Female
Christening Date 28 Sep 1822
Christening Date (Original) 28 SEP 1822
Christening Place BRIDLINGTON,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Adamson
Mother's Name Jane
I'm still puzzling over the Edmond Jenkinson who married a Nancy Jenkinson. Wouldn't she be the Nancy who was daughter of Thomas Jenkinson in the 1851 census in Filey?
There was an Edmond Jenkinson who was 12 year old nephew to Thomas and Betsey Shippy in Filey in 1851.
Now he would have to be the 2 year old Edmond son of Edmond Jenkinson Fisherman in 1841 but Sea Captain of the Eliza Olive in the Gloster Canal in 1861. The younger Edmond Jenkinson was with his brother John in Filey in 1861.
Anway what can we find out about John Adamson born 1819. Could he have gone to Durham and had a son Eward who might then have been father of the Jane Adamson we seek?
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We found that John Adamson Snr was a Blacksmith and a blind one to boot in his last years. However he shows up as age 40 in 1841, whilst a John Harper that same year was a 28 year old Blacksmith - was he working for or with John Adamson?
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My busy weekend which I mentioned earlier involved meeting a half cousin, we had the same grandmother, at the end of her European holiday, just before she flew back to Australia. She found me two and a half years ago by searching for names which I mentioned on my website. We had a wonderful meeting full of frivolous talk and more focused family history chat. I knew my grandmother quite well in my teenage years, but she kept her earlier years very quiet. She gave birth to my father, but he was secretly brought up by my grandmother's parents. We always thought the grandmother was his older sister, it was through my half cousins research that the truth came out. Now back to Jane Adamson.
From reading all the earlier comments, along with my own research, and gut feeling, I do believe the Adamsons and Jenkinsons are inextricably linked, but I still struggle with trying to identify a Jane Adamson born somewhere that could conceivably be called the city centre. I haven't yet had a reply from the Tyne and Wear archives.
Martin
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Hi Martin, It is always something wonderful when you find and/or discovered by a long lost cousin through family research. It is also a bit sad when you think about how these discoveries could have gladdened the hearts of mothers and grandmothers had they only been found earlier on. What makes it worse for me is that in 1956 I stayed for nearly a year with friends in Melbourne, and those lost cousins waiting to be found were only just doors away, and my Mum never knew until some of them were deceased. That was not to be the only time that I found myself living close, even right next door to cousins. We found out then because my son John exchanged names with the friends he was playing with in the street and they were all Hutton's. Many years later when those young cousins had grown up, we were moving from Melbourne to Cairns and when the trucks turned up with containers to be loaded, who should the removal men be but two of those cousins.
As I've pointed out before, these aren't coincidences. Something we don't understand is at play causing them to happen. That is why your gut feeling is so important. It is more than a subconscious notion, this is your psychic ability at play. Far too often we pass it off as a mere intuition, but it is much more.
Not sure if I mentioned it before, but back in the early 1980's when I was searching for lost cousins in Melbourne for someone in Bradford, Yorkshire, I stood by the grave I had just found and was at a 'dead' end, and so I asked out loud for help to find his family. I was heard! His grand-daughter came into our travel agency less than a week later and asked for help with a passport application, and when given her maiden name, out it all came. Two months later that lady was able to call in and see her lost cousin in England.
I also feel very strongly that Jane Adamson of South Shields 1889/1993 was somehow related to the Jenkison's of Filey and thus the Hunmanby Adamson's. We can't ignore it, but have to push on and find them all.
I don't suppose you have any memento handed down from those Leggett children of Hartlepool? Just handling such an article could open up some channel with an answer at the end. Unfortunately all the homes Jane lived in at South Shields and in Hartlepool have all gone, with newer homes in their place, or even an open space.
Have you ever visited George's grave site? If not, well you never know!
One thing that now seems to be obvious, we cannot find trace of a Jane Adamson in any census earlier than 1891 that fills the bill. She has to be in some of them and so it could be another wrong name tanscription, or what we know she did later on. When living with George she used his name even though they weren't married. What's to say she didn't do that before Henry Thompson? There may be some way to solve this, but first I think I shall look very closely at the Harper's and Jenkinson's in Durham City.
Cheers Malcolm
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Hi I wonder how long it will take you ?
Could you give a time line of findings so far so those of us not connected can continue to follow the story.
Happy hunting .
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Well Brigid, I had to try and get the family sequence of the Admason Jenkinson's straight in my mind. What we do know is that George Daniel Leggett was a visitor staying with John Adamson Jenkinson in Acclom Street Hartlepool in 1911, while his de facto wife Jane Adamson/Thompson/Leggett was at that time not far away at 174 Alma Street.
From this it does appear that there was some relationship between Jane Adamson born 1860 and the much younger John Adamson Jenkinson.
I've worked it out on a small tree. But that still leaves us with the mystery of what connection there actually was from this lot to Jane Adamson born 1860.
One thought was that she could be a grand-daughter of John and Jane Adamson in the tree. However that would presumably require a male son to this couple to carry the family name - but you never know! Might be an illegitimate birth there somewhere. I did find a John Adamson baptised in Hull in 1819, so a possibility as it is only just down the coast from Hunmanby. However John and Jane only married in 1821.
We know Henry Thompson must have died in 1890 only months after his marriage to Jane. The only one with that name and anywhere near the age of 71 in 1889 was the death of a Henry Thompson at Belford in 1890 - but aged 74 years. Now that age does correspond with the Henry Thompson who was born at Warden near Hexham, but lived in Whickham as a butler and later on a Coal Agent in Tynemouth. So what was he doing so far away from his new wife when he Kaaked it? One clue is that the two witnesses to the marriage of Henry to Jane Adamson came from families - one Thompson - who were from Dunstan and that is up the coast, but not quite as far as Belford.
There were heaps of Adamson families in the City of Durham and though I cannot identify any of them with a Jane of the right age, it does look like she belonged to one of them.
Malcolm
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Something else that I didn't get around to adding to that small tree was that John Adamson and his wife Jane had a daughter Jane Adamson baptised August 1829 in Hunmanby.
What happened to her? Did she marry...have an illegitimate daughter called Jane...appear in any census from 1841 onwards?
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We know Henry Thompson must have died in 1890 only months after his marriage to Jane. The only one with that name and anywhere near the age of 71 in 1889 was the death of a Henry Thompson at Belford in 1890 - but aged 74 years
Henry Thompson died 26 January 1891 at 68 Morton Street, South Shields, Administration of his estate was granted to Jane. This may be his death:
THOMSON, HENRY aged 74 GRO Ref: 1891 M Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 431
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Jomot, this is just to clarify things.
We already know the information you just added, from my posting, Sunday 10 June 18 22:52 BST (UK).
Henry Thompson was definitely married to my great grandmother, but the problem is that we can't tie her back to any earlier events.
Martin
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Hi Martin,
Yes, I know that, but Malcolm had posted the following, so I was clarifying for his benefit
We know Henry Thompson must have died in 1890 only months after his marriage to Jane. The only one with that name and anywhere near the age of 71 in 1889 was the death of a Henry Thompson at Belford in 1890 - but aged 74 years. Now that age does correspond with the Henry Thompson who was born at Warden near Hexham, but lived in Whickham as a butler and later on a Coal Agent in Tynemouth. So what was he doing so far away from his new wife when he Kaaked it?
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Jomot, I understand now! He died 26th January 1891.
18:02 UPDATE: I THINK I can accept that the Jane Adamson of Tudhoe MIGHT NOT be our one. The only thing that makes me have doubts is the Edward Adamson, Engineer statement on her marriage to Henry Thompson. But would she or the registrar say 'Edward Adamson' when he was really Edwin Potter? I've never heard of Edwin being an affectionate form of Edward. Or vice versa.
But I can't find ANOTHER Edward Adamson, Engineer.
Martin
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Henry Thompson died 26 January 1891 at 68 Morton Street, South Shields, Administration of his estate was granted to Jane. This may be his death:
THOMSON, HENRY aged 74 GRO Ref: 1891 M Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 431
Ah so they had his name wrong in the register. That explains it. I only found these in the 1891 March Quarter:
Deaths Mar 1891
Thompson Henry 71 Blofield 4b 156
Thompson Henry 79 Smallburgh 4b 38
Thompson Henry 0 Newcastle T. 10b 112
Thompson Henry 75 Morpeth 10b 227
Thompson Henry 78 Kingston 2a 235
Thompson Henry 75 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 372
Thompson Henry 17 Birmingham 6d 122
Thompson Henry 32 Gloucester 6a 229
Thompson Henry 14 Halifax 9a 345
Thompson Henry 82 Burnley 8e 183
Thompson Henry 10 Hitchin 3a 319
Thompson Henry 51 Warrington 8c 135
Thompson Henry Davison 5 Salford 8d 52
Thompson Henry John 4 Edmonton 3a 215
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18:02 UPDATE: I THINK I can accept that the Jane Adamson of Tudhoe MIGHT NOT be our one. The only thing that makes me have doubts is the Edward Adamson, Engineer statement on her marriage to Henry Thompson. But would she or the registrar say 'Edward Adamson' when he was really Edwin Potter? I've never heard of Edwin being an affectionate form of Edward. Or vice versa.
I still think the GRO marriage copy looks like Edward has been written in later - I take it you haven't heard back from Tyne & Wear Archives about the original yet? Info on charges, contact address etc here: https://twarchives.org.uk/collection/copying
If she was illegitimate, as we believe, then it wouldn't be at all unusual to give her step-father's forename & occupation rather than say 'I don't know'. She may have said 'Adamson' or it may have been assumed, that's something we'll never know.
I'm personally not convinced of any family connection between Jane Adamson/Thompson/Leggett and John Adamson Jenkinson, but I'll be happy if I'm proved wrong.
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Malcolm, I had not noticed the wrong spelling. Very observant.
Jomot, I have just had an email from the T&W archives. They do not hold the records for that church. They have referred me to the local registrar, which I am following up.
What about looking at it from a different viewpoint? What happened to Jane Adamson who was living with the Potters in Middlesbrough? Ruling her out that way would help. I can't find anything.
Martin
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Hi Martin,
I have just come across this post so I am not quite up to speed with all the info. However, I just want to say that I live on Tyneside and if I can be of any help in any way I will - just let me know.
I can see straight off that when I get time I should be able to find Henry's Preston Cemetery burial location on microfilm which is held at the library. Do you know if there is a grave stone? If so I could look for this as at the cemetery and let you know what this says and take a photo Just say if I you need help and when I get time in between work and family commitments I will help.
Possibly email South Shields library re: Church if they have record I could go and look up.
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RTL, thank you for your help and interest. Basically I am trying to find out about the early life of Jane Adamson who married Henry Thompson. She is my Great Grandmother. She had a child at 29 with 70-year old Henry, who then died the following year. Jane then had six children children with George Leggett. On 1891,01 and 11 censuses she appears to come from Durham, Durham, or Durham City.
A Jane Adamson of the right age was born in Tudhoe in 1860, recorded on 1861 and 1871 censuses. 1881 lists a Jane but with slight age discrepancy. Tudhoe Jane was raised by Ann Adamson, who married Edwin Potter, who may or may not be the father, a blacksmith from Tudhoe. He later described himself as Engineer. On Jane's marr cert to Henry her father is listed as Edward Adamson, Engineer. But we differ in views as to whether it was the same man. I am neutral.
To sum up, I am now only interested in the EARLY pree 1889 life of the Jane Adamson who married Henry Thompson and then lived with (no marriage record) George Leggett. The early part of the thread deals with George. We don't know why he was 'away from home' on the 1901 census (where was he?) or why he is living in Acclom St, Hartlepool with a friend in 1911, nor why he is named as deceased on his daughter's 1915 marr cert. My view is that George and Jane had some sort of rift. Jane's 6th son, my GF is named as Thomas William THOMPSON on his 1900/01 birth cert.
I want to connect or reject 1860 Tudhoe Jane to the one married to Henry Thompson and later with George Leggett.
I think that brings you up to date.
Martin
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Jomot, I have just had an email from the T&W archives. They do not hold the records for that church. They have referred me to the local registrar, which I am following up.
My apologies Martin, I've just looked again at the User Guide and see that an X is written alongside Queen Street Chapel, which means baptisms. Must get my glasses checked!
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Hi Martin,
I could look at the A-Z files at the North Shields local studies at the end of next week. You never know, there may be something in there.
This is a vast resource which holds information on Tyneside ancestors (people who lived here, not necessarily born here) which either the staff or descendants or other researchers have added to. These folders often include all types of interesting stuff - info on hand written notes, family tree drawings, articles etc.
It is worth a try, I think.
If you need any other look up carried out which you think might help you with query, do let me know. I will do my best to help you out in the Tyneside area. :)
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If the family you are looking for lived near Mile End road, South Shields any children may have attended St Stephen School, South Shields.
Tyne and Wear Archives have the records so if this too may be of any help let me know. (admission registers/logs/ miscellaneous) I have searched these records before as some of my own ancestors lived and attended school there. :)
http://www.margaret-hall-genealogy.com/page6.htm
Hopefully, the above link will take you to a great local website which has an easy use Tyne and Wear Archives User Guide which I 👍 like.
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RTL, I am of course interested in anything concerning the children of Jane Adamson my great grandmother, but I just want to confirm that my main focus at the moment is trying to connect her with the Jane born in Tudhoe in 1860 or to disprove this connection. The fact that the Tudhoe girl was raised by her mother who subsequently married Edwin Potter, blacksmith, (which I think was synonymous with engineer in that part of the country) comma makes me think it is a strong likelihood that it is the same Jane, especially in view of the fact that she lists her father as Adamson and an engineer on her marriage certificate to Henry Thompson, but the fact that he is named as Edward rather than Edwin works against this theory. I've never found anything else about Edward Adamson, but Edwin Potter was a factory engineer in a chemical factory, possibly building on his background as a Colliery blacksmith but I might be putting two and two together and getting the wrong answer. Nor can I track the Jane Adamson who lived with the Potters in Middlesbrough.
Martin
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Thanks for confirming Martin. I will check the A-Z resource at the North Shields local studies at the back end of next week and will let you know if anything may have been deposited which may help with this quest of trying to prove or disprove.
An answer may not be there but I think it is worth a try. :)
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RTL, along with other members of my extended family I am very grateful for your efforts. I look forward to hearing from you.
I have said that I am totally neutral in this, but my research lead me to find Mr and Mrs Edwin Potter, and Jane Adamson from Tudhoe, and I quite like the idea of being descended from an illegitimate blacksmith's daughter.
Martin
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Here's a bizarre coincidence, remembering that MY Jane Adamson, as Jane Leggett was landlady of a pub in Hartlepool in 1899.
There was also a Jane Adamson, born 1860 in West Rainton, 5 miles outside Durham City.
In 1878 there was a Jane Adamson, the landlady of a pub, the Bull and Dog Inn, West Rainton. Whether it was the 1860 Rainton Jane I can't tell. Age 18 seems young to run a pub. My source is an auction in 1878, reported locally, with Jane Adamson as the existing tenant. Coincidences do happen.
Martin
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I'd already seen that and got excited, but the 1881 census shows this Jane as being aged 60 and born St Oswolds (sic), Durham.
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This whole mystery played on my mind during the night and then something came to me which I think we have all overlooked in searching for Jane in 1881. This was all mixed up in my half sleep with older thoughts about Harry Potter. This believe it or not is an Ancient Egyptian name for the ever coming son of God - I'll explain another time as it involves explaining how the hieroglyphs work, Egyptian beliefs and I doubt that J K Rowling even knows what she hit on.
First of all the names 'Edward' and 'Edwin'. This too kept coming at me because my grandfather was christened Albert Edwin Hutton and he hated the name 'Edwin' so he always called himself 'Albert Edward Hutton' and signed his name as such. Attached Signature is on a letter dated 1890.
Now the 'Engineer' appellation. Edwin was shown as a 'Civil Engineer' in the 1891 census, not that long after Jane's marriage to Henry Thompson in 1889. The only two things that bother me are her insistence on being born in Durham City and naming her father as an 'Adamson'. But did she?
Isn't it possible that the information given to the registrar was not from Jane herself but perhaps Henry or one of the Witnesses who it seems were his relatives?
If Jane had come to them as 'Adamson' which is most likely then of course that would have been the surname given.
There is something else we have tended to forget - the stigma of having been born illegitimate.
I think that Jane went into Henry Thompson's household as a servant, and gave her name as Adamson. To name her adopting father as a Potter would have led to an explanation of her illegitimacy. So that I think explains away the surname.
I'm going to do some work now on my hunch, and if right I should be back with my next comment revealing all.
Cheers Malcolm
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Malcolm, bedtime here, but first of all I agree with all of this:
Isn't it possible that the information given to the registrar was not from Jane herself but perhaps Henry or one of the Witnesses who it seems were his relatives?
If Jane had come to them as 'Adamson' which is most likely then of course that would have been the surname given.
There is something else we have tended to forget - the stigma of having been born illegitimate.
I want to believe the next bit, but can we support it beyond reasonable doubt?
"I think that Jane went into Henry Thompson's household as a servant, and gave her name as Adamson. To name her adopting father as a Potter would have led to an explanation of her illegitimacy. So that I think explains away the surname."
It is currently very hot in England, no air conditioning, and the fan on all night. I am still trying to be neutral, but I like the servant idea. The jump from Tudhoe/Shildon/Spennymoor area to Shields worries me though.
Perhaps Jane was late Victorian trendy and wanted to shake off her rural roots...? As I pointed out before, Tudhoe was in St Oswald parish, and the church was in the heart of the city.
Also, despite my middle name being Harry, people assume it is short for Henry. For 3-4 years at school I was called Harry rather than Martin as my peers thought it was funny. Now it is highly fashionable, after Harry Potter and Prince Harry (Henry).
The trouble is, I would never commit a man on hypothesis.
Many people take the text on certificates as gospel, but I always have many reservations. Illiteracy, confusion, myth, family legend, etc.
Martin
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Snip
Perhaps Jane was late Victorian trendy and wanted to shake off her rural roots...? As I pointed out before, Tudhoe was in St Oswald parish, and the church was in the heart of the city.
Snip
Martin Tudhoe wasn't in St Oswald's parish, it was in St Brandon, Brancepeth parish. St Oswald was the registration sub district recorded on births and deaths that occurred in Tudhoe and registered in the Durham district.
Jay
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Perhaps Jane was late Victorian trendy and wanted to shake off her rural roots...? As I pointed out before, Tudhoe was in St Oswald parish, and the church was in the heart of the city.
Martin
I just can't buy that one, Martin as much as it would help solve the mystery. Tudhoe is 8 kilometres as the crow flies from the centre of Durham City. We can forget the extent of Parish boundaries for at one time they even went beyond a country boundary. My 6 x gt. grandfather James Turnbull confused us in various census - sometimes born Northumberland and sometimes born in Scotland. That was all to do with the Parish of Simonburn which is well into Northumberland, which at one time covered part of Roxburghshire in Scotland.
Spennymoor Parish church is no distance from Tudhoe and it was consecrated in 1858 so that would have been where Jane would have been baptised - not all the way to Durham. Also there were many more churches much nearer such as Ferryhill, Cornforth, Whitworth and Croxdale.
My birthplace Consett isn't that much farther from 'Toon', but I would never say that I came from Newcastle. Nevertheless Jane might have said Durham at some stage and then felt that she had to keep to it, rather than go into a long explanation.
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Also, despite my middle name being Harry, people assume it is short for Henry. For 3-4 years at school I was called Harry rather than Martin as my peers thought it was funny. Now it is highly fashionable, after Harry Potter and Prince Harry (Henry).
The trouble is, I would never commit a man on hypothesis.
Many people take the text on certificates as gospel, but I always have many reservations. Illiteracy, confusion, myth, family legend, etc.
Martin
In the case of the name, 'HARRY', it is gospel, and very much so.
Most people only know mistranslations and also Hellenised names from the original rather than the true names. I have found through my studies of Egyptian, Greek and other languages - which include Welsh, Gaelic and Turkish, that quite a number of mistranslations were deliberate and only done on purpose to hide the truth which in these cases destroy some biblical stories. The Egyptian 14th Dynasty King Jacob is a good example. The deceivers have tried to use unspoken ideograms as an excuse but in doing so they make a total mess of the name they come up with. There were five 18th Dynasty Kings of Egypt named 'DHWT' (abbreviated to TWT in the case of the last which has become 'Tut' instead of 'David'.) How on earth can you get Tuthmoses from a name which was clearly spelled 'DHWT'? It is all to do with the cover up.
But let's get back to HARRY. You will know this Egyptian god name better by the Greek version - 'HORUS'. There were often two or three alternatives in presenting this and other names. One way was to spell it out and the other was to use a shortcut hieroglyph which would be understood by the reader. The name of the Son of God in Egypt was simply HR. They didn't always use a glyph for a vowel and never one for the vowel 'E'. Consequently the convention when no vowel is known is to insert an 'E' - but they don't always do it. The shortcut glyph for HR was a Falcon and this is what we see in the Jean Cocteau Mural in the church of Notre Dame in Leicester Square, London. Obviously Cocteau knew that the portrayal in his mural was false and he painted in a Falcon on a Roman Soldier's shield in such a way that it sits on his own shoulder.
My Egyptian grammar tells me that the suffix 'Y' really meant "He or She Who Is". In fact that is how we use it in English with 'Harry', 'Billy', 'Tommy', 'Jenny' etc. etc. It is also curious that there are other cases of such similarities between English and Ancient Egyptian - e.g. the suffix letter 'T' which can mean 'Land of', or be a feminine indicator like our 'ette'.
This is not surprising since 18th Dynasty Egyptians invaded and conquered Ireland in the Bronze Age and we can see this in Irish Legends which name Egyptian Kings, Brian, HR, (Horus), Cain and Abel - 14th/15th Dynasty kings of Egypt.
So the Egyptian son of God was primarily named HRY - Harry, but they often had other spiritual names and The Ever Coming Son of God in Egypt who was always seen as the Living King of Egypt, was also known as IOSA. This is actually spelled exactly the same in Scots Gaelic for 'Jesus'. The Greeks changed 'Iosa' into 'Iesous', and when those stories were plagiarised by Egyptian Copts to please Constantine who wanted to invent a new religion in 325CE that was the Egyptian name they used.
Now despite popular opinion that Egyptians worshipped many gods, THEY DIDN'T!! They just saw the one god as having many different characters. So as a Creator they saw God as a Potter who moulded clay into living beings and the name they gave God as a Creator was PTAH. - You can easily check this on the net. Hence HARRY POTTER = HRY PTAH, aka known as 'Jesus'.
Forget the 'name' 'KHRST'. This was an Egyptian word meaning 'Buried' or 'Burial' and you can find it on coffins - on the net, e.g. Nakht Ankh with this translation. The mummy went through 70 days mummification rituals in which it was anointed with embalming fluids by a Baptist - Anep or Anubis. In time the meaning began to be thought of as 'Anointed' rather than 'Buried'. If you can read Greek then you can read the Greek version of Isaiah 45:1 in which Cyrus is named the 'Christ'. Also in the Greek version of the OT - the Septuagint you will find the name Iesous - in fact a whole book of Iesous/Jesus as well as in Numbers, Exodus and Deuteronomy.
The key to learning Bible Origins in Egypt is the identity of the Egyptian King Solomon - simply tons and tons of proof - not just evidence.
A whole new world opens up when you can read Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs, Malcolm
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Perhaps I should add that the ydna of the 18th Dynasty mummies turned out to be R1b1a2. This is the dominant ydna of all males in Britain and Ireland - as high as 90% in England.
We can even tell from 1 Samuel chapters 4 to 6 that the Hebrews ruled Egypt at that time - they were rulers not slaves and Israel was during the reign of 3rd Dynasty King Djoser/Joshua the Bethshemite, all of Lower Egypt. The hated Pharaoh was none other than Akhenaten/Moses himself and he only fled Egypt with a small number of followers carrying only a small portion of the Temple Treasures - we know this from The Copper Scroll.
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I am just travelling on way to work. However, this is just a quick mention on St Oswald's and location - I went to visit this a good while back as my Grt x 2 Grandfather Edward Senior is buried there.
When we got to Durham we walked over a bridge to cross the river to get to New Elvet where we visited the Half Moon Inn. I think it took us about five or ten minutes, not long to reach the Church after visiting the pub where Edward had been proprietor in 1800s.
This is a beautiful Church - still very old fashioned looking interior and this has a very peaceful, timeless atmosphere inside. Huge tombstones fill the Churchyard. The Church is not too far of a walking distance from city centre - if the one I went to is the one in the St Oswald's area being referred to on this thread.
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Jay, thanks for the clarification re the boundary. It must have been close.
Malcolm, I was obsessed with hieroglyphics as a child.
RTL, I hope to visit the church later in the year.
One minor update, I recently noticed that Jane Adamson's son, Ernest Victor Leggett, b 1896, Barningham, married in 1934. One of the witnesses was Violet Adamson. Who was she...? I wondered if it could be Jane's daughter, Violet Mary Leggett, having adopted her mother's surname... Or someone totally different?
Martin
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I had a look at some results in the 1939 register but couldn't identify any that came up as being Jane's daughter, Violet. There were many of them with that name so could be someone else and in that case I think it would have to be from Jane's Adamson family elsewhere. More likely that Violet got married well before 1934 and if so could be the Violet Adamson who married Joseph Baum in Gateshead in 1926.
One course of action would be to try and pick out Leggett's living in South Shields in the 1939 register and see if she could be ruled out from that.
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Hi Martin,
I have had a chance to pop into the library at North Shields today. I haven't been able to find anything specifically to answer your query. However, I will add some information found on names mentioned on this thread, hoping this may be useful perhaps, even just in the way to expand your records:
Burial of John Adamson at Preston Cemetery, North Shields
Entry: 1155
Seventy Six years
Upholsterer
Death Occurred: Walker Place
Burial Date: Seventh November 1876
Ceremony Performed By: 'A Jenkinson Methodist Free Church Minister'
Buried: Unconsecrated Ground 2210
Removed from the 'Township of Tynemouth'
Henry Thompson buried Preston Cemetery, North Shields
Entry: 2039
74 years
Agent
Place of Death: South Shields
Burial Date: 29 Jan 1891
Ceremony performed by: J (?) (Oliver?)
Free Methodist Minister
Unconsecrated Ground: 1732
Removed from the 'Township of South Shields'
Shields Daily News - 2 May 1882 Page 2 Column 2
COALS! COALS! COALS!
SWANSON'S DEPOT,
TYNEMOUTH ROAD, NORTH SHIELDS
NOTICE
MR HENRY THOMPSON
69 Bedford Street, North Shields, has been appointed our Agent, to receive Orders for Coals, and all Orders sent to his residence will have his prompt and best attention.
Mr Thompson was formerly connected with this Depot for about eight years.
For the Durham and Northumberland Coal Co.,
JOHN G. SWANSON
Note.- ALL OUR COALS ARE VERY GOOD AT PRESENT.'
I think you will enjoy your visit to the St Oswald Church, Martin. This is a beautiful Church and it is like stepping back in time inside. Thankfully, unlike many other Churches this does not appear to have been modernised. It is very peaceful inside and visitors can pop in to just look around or slip into a pew to pray. This is one of the most interesting Churches I have ever visited.
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Malcolm, during my next ancestry library visit I will look into Durham Leggets in 1939.
RTL, thank you for your time and efforts. I don't understand the references to unconsecrated ground. I think you mistyped a date at one point, 2210. The reference to Henry and his coal is particularly interesting. Thank you. We will only have time for one day in Durham, but visiting some churches will be high on our list.
I am starting to wonder if I will ever know the truth about the early years of Jane Adamson.
Martin
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I believe any burial other than standard Anglican would be in 'Unconsecrated' ground. (Roman Catholic, Methodist etc) That is not a date it is the grave number/location - 2210.
I think at that early time they were not using grave section references so I do not know the exact section location. The staff in the office there would likely be able to let you know though. Perhaps if they have grave stones any inscriptions may give more clues.
http://www.margaret-hall-genealogy.com/page8.htm
Hopefully, the above link on a local website will show a Preston Cemetery map.
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Thank you. Apologies for my date confusion.
Martin
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Malcolm, during my next ancestry library visit I will look into Durham Leggets in 1939.
I am starting to wonder if I will ever know the truth about the early years of Jane Adamson.
Martin
I am quite confident that you will know the whole story in good time. In the meantime we must never give up on any unfinished search. I know from so many other cases that something quite extraordinary turns up out of the blue. The first one that comes to mind is a letter in which an address led to the whole story unfolding. Somewhere in some box bought at an op shop there will be souvenirs, mementoes and perhaps more letters wherein Jane kept her most inner secrets.
I don't think inspiration will come from within a church, but standing by a grave might do it. They are no longer there but a visiting presence is noted and even acted on as I discovered with the Benjamin Willis case.
All the best with the search and your trip around the North East. Malcolm
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Just a thought .. did your Jane die in North/South Tyneside? If so, Martin, if you wish to give me the details at some point in next few weeks I could try to find burial which could help to find a death notice/memoriams.
I can access South Tyneside notices, for example which are not yet on-line.
Sometimes these are good for providing more details on previous family background.
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Just a thought .. did your Jane die in North/South Tyneside? If so, Martin, if you wish to give me the details at some point in next few weeks I could try to find burial which could help to find a death notice/memoriams.
I can access South Tyneside notices, for example which are not yet on-line.
Sometimes these are good for providing more details on previous family background.
I can answer that for Martin, Bonny Lass. Jane didn't remain in Shields. The 1911 census has her in Hartlepool and the places of birth for subsequent children tell us that she moved on to Richmond, Yorks, then Barnard Castle before finally staying in Hartlepool.
Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail 30 December 1931
DEATHS
LEGGETT - At the Hartlepools Hospital, on Dec. 29th, Jane Leggett, aged 72 years, of 20 South Parade. - Service at St.Aidan's. January 1st at 3.0 p.m.
She was 31 in 1891 which is why we focussed on finding a birth for her circa 1860, but 39 in 1901, then 51 in 1911 and finally 72 at the end of 1931. So perhaps we should have been looking more at a birth in 1859.
Malcolm
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Thanks for answering this Malcolm. What a shame I won't be able to help out with memoriams then. These are often good clues in revealing who their relatives were.
I agree with you though that it is far too soon for Martin to give up on this - I think that there is still a good chance he will find the answer to this one day.
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I agree with you though that it is far too soon for Martin to give up on this - I think that there is still a good chance he will find the answer to this one day.
Yes and I have seen so many amazing things happen that have given us what we've been looking for. As an example and this in no way helped find something we didn't know. Some months ago on one of the Consett Heritage facebook forums someone reported finding names and a date cut into their floor boards when they had old tiles lifted. The full insciption carved into that floor had in large capital letters 'EDITH AND ERNEST BONELL 1935'. These were my great aunt and great uncle, Edith being the younger sister of my grandma Isabella Dent. I remember going to their house a number of times which was along or just off Medomsley Road, so must have been in that very house where the names are carved. Malcolm
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I just saw the Probate Calendar for 1931. It lists the death of Jane Ann Adamson, East Rainton.
It doesn't prove that this was the Jane born in Rainton in 1860, but it is worth noting. FreeBMD lists a Jane Ann Adamson, aged 78 dying in Houghton. The '78' suggests she wasn't born in 1860, though.
'My' Jane Adamson was recorded as dying aged 71, as Jane Leggett in Dec 1931. I have always believed that death cert ages are LIKELY to be more reliable than census dates, but still not 100% reliable.
Martin
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The Jane Adamson of Rainton would be the one who in 1881 was Innkeeper at the Bull & Dog Inn at Rainton. She shows up as being born St.Oswald's Durham aged 60 which gives us a big difference between being 78 in 1931. I've seen so many age variations, but rarely as much as 7 years. Nevertheless I don't doubt that they are one and the same.
The newspaper which gave Jane's age as 72 in December 1931 is only one year out from what you have Martin, and that is easily explained by someone else in the family giving the age when placing the notice.
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Earlier in this thread I said,
"In 1881 looks like Jane was a servant with a family in Shildon. Birthplace given as Spennymoor but that would be the district for Tudhoe, they're right next door. Age is given as 18 which is about 2 years out."
I now see I know see that there is a Jane Adamson born at about the right time, where the mother is named as Laverick . This is the name of the family with whom this Jane was living as a servant in 1881. I'm still trying to decide how this changes things. If this Jane was the Jane born in 1860, and she was related to the family for whom she was working in 1881, I think they would have got her age correct. This makes me think she is not my Jane.
In 1858 a John Adamson married and Elizabeth Laverick. Perhaps this Jane is their child. Perhaps the Laverick family with whom she is living, are relatives of Elizabeth. I'd be interested in any further comments.
Martin
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Hi Martin,
I'd already questioned whether the Jane aged 18 in 1881 was 'your' Jane - see below. Personally I don't think she is, and 'your' Jane is therefore still to be found.
Sorry if I'm going over old ground here, but returning to the 1881 census for the Jane Adamson aged 18 born Spennymoor - have you ruled out this being the Jane Adamson mmn Laverick born Q4 1861?
This Jane had a sister named Martha born in 1868, which leads to a family in Whitworth in 1871 with daughter Jane shown as aged 7, born Tudhoe. She seems to have married Alfred William Holliday in 1883, and the census has her age as 28, 38, 48 - so a good match for the Jane aged 18 in 1881. The 1901 census also has PoB as Spennymoor.
Either way we seem to have two Jane Adamsons born Tudhoe 1860/61, but I can only find one in the 1881 census.
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Jomot, apologies. I think I must have subconsciously remembered you pointing that out! I even visited Shildon last week while on holiday in the area.
Martin
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I don't have anything useful to add but its been an interesting read hopefully should I ever run into a similar situation I'll either have hints from this or be able to post the same and have a similar mystery hunt as this one.
Interestingly (and its not a line I'm following) my 3x Great Uncle married a Leggett
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Battmanforever, any connection to Corton near Lowestoft in Suffolk, or Hartlepool in Durham?
Martin
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Hi Martin.
There could be but as I said it's not a line I'm researching. This leggett was in East London but it doesn't mean her family didn't come from those areas you mention. I only have her in my tree as part of research I did into a cousin but I didnt need to trace back
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Earlier in this thread I said,
"In 1881 looks like Jane was a servant with a family in Shildon. Birthplace given as Spennymoor but that would be the district for Tudhoe, they're right next door. Age is given as 18 which is about 2 years out."
I now see I know see that there is a Jane Adamson born at about the right time, where the mother is named as Laverick . This is the name of the family with whom this Jane was living as a servant in 1881. I'm still trying to decide how this changes things. If this Jane was the Jane born in 1860, and she was related to the family for whom she was working in 1881, I think they would have got her age correct. This makes me think she is not my Jane.
In 1858 a John Adamson married and Elizabeth Laverick. Perhaps this Jane is their child. Perhaps the Laverick family with whom she is living, are relatives of Elizabeth. I'd be interested in any further comments.
Martin
Funny thing, I knew this search would come up again right now from one of the strange signs I get from time to time. Yesterday I was watching part of the movie 'An Elephant named Slowly' and this again featured the Adamsons. Last week I was very much involved in a search for a Mary Genevieve Cullen of Boston Mass and at the same time happened to watch one of the episodes of 'Marcella' when suddenly the name 'Cullen' was right across the screen in large letters.
Anyway just had a quick look at John Adamson who married Elizabeth Laverick and I see from the marriage licence that he was a farmer of Brancepeth Parish and she was living in Croxdale - 3 miles south of Durham City, and they married in Croxdale. That would fit with Jane's birthplace being Durham City.
Malcolm
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I have mentioned this in a more recent related but different thread, but here it is again, to close this thread.
I last week contacted my 3rd and 4th best matches on GEDmatch. To cut a long story short, they are both descendants of an extended family living in Tudhoe, probable birthplace of my great grandmother, Jane Adamson. We can't be sure who in the family was actually Jane's father, but it leaves me in no doubt that I have Tudhoe connections in about 1860, my grandmother, Jane Adamson almost definitely came from there, and I consider this and earlier research to meet the proof stanards. Thanks to all.
Martin
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I have mentioned this in a more recent related but different thread, but here it is again, to close this thread.
I last week contacted my 3rd and 4th best matches on GEDmatch. To cut a long story short, they are both descendants of an extended family living in Tudhoe, probable birthplace of my great grandmother, Jane Adamson. We can't be sure who in the family was actually Jane's father, but it leaves me in no doubt that I have Tudhoe connections in about 1860, my grandmother, Jane Adamson almost definitely came from there, and I consider this and earlier research to meet the proof stanards. Thanks to all.
Martin
Well that's good news, Martin and it does bring some closure to a long search.
All the best, Malcolm
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Its a fascinating story .
Amazing research
Im glad the DNA has added an extra dimension for you .