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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: staplehouse on Wednesday 06 June 18 07:59 BST (UK)
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I have just discovered that a James and Sarah Taylor nee Edwards had a daughter called Sarah born 20 March 1840 in Sydney, she was a witness to her brother wedding in 1865 but can not find any thing else on her from then, her brother was Thomas, can you suggest where to go from here
Tom
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Hi Tom,
You could Search NSW Bdm for marriages and then corresponding death and check parents’ names. https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search?7
However with such common names it is probably easiest to find death notices and obits for the parents. When and where did James and Sarah die?
Ros
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Sarah, born 20 March 1840, daughter of James and Sarah TAYLOR, (James a carpenter) baptism 28 June 1840 recorded in register for St Phillips C of E, Sydney by Rev William COWPER.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCT-899
and
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTD1-K2D
and
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTD1-2B3
Thomas, born 5 October 1835, son of James and Sarah TAYLOR, (James a carpenter) baptised 13 December 1835, recorded in register for St Phillips C of E, Sydney by Rev. William COWPER.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTC8-W8K
and
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT6Y-JYR
I notice that family search has the baptism for Sarah indexed THREE times, and Ancestry has it twice, and NSW BDM does not have it under Sarah TAYLOR with those parents. Three times … so it is likely there’s at least three separate parish registers … perhaps ONE is the original register, and of the other two, at least one will be St Phillips C of E, as the register receiving transmitted records from across the then territory of NSW (which in early 1840 still included all of what is New Zealand and many of the South Sea Islands, and what is now Victoria, Queensland, and the Northern Territory etc etc etc) Of course, greatest numbers of people were in and around Sydney, but all outlying districts were expected to transmit at least a summary each quarter through to Sydney …
Some questions to consider:
a) Are you sure that the witness is SISTER to the groom? Is it possible the witness was MOTHER or AUNT or COUSIN to him … or perhaps a Mrs Sarah Taylor (ie an inlaw) or perhaps just a neighbour or friend or a parishioner who often acted as an official witness. Taylor was among the top five surnames for popularity even in that era in NSW.
b) The Anglican Church in co-operation with Ancestry has allowed Ancestry to upload digitised images of the parish registers for the Sydney Diocese.(Sydney Anglican Parish Registers 1814-2011). Have you found the baptism in that collection, if not, then perhaps the baptism was NOT at St Phillips, Sydney, but simply the clergyman conducting the baptism transmitted a copy of his own parish register to St Phillips in accordance with the then general orders and practices.
c) NSW Civil registration commenced 1 March 1856, but the practice of transmitting the records dates back at least to 1810 and a general order issued by Governor Lachlan Macquarie. The NSW Supreme Court’s first registrar was effectively the first civil registrar for bdms, commencing his own register in about 1818 or perhaps 1817 which of course is merged in with all the other Early Church Records in the online indexes at NSW BDM.
d) On the 1865 marriage, what was Thomas’ occupation and usual address? What info did he provide about his parents to the clergyman? (Dad’s occupation, Dad’s full names, Mum’s full names, including former and nee surnames).
e) Does Sarah sign or make her mark? Many girls in Sydney from as early as the 1820s were frequently taught skills giving them literacy and numeracy, so a lass born 1840 may have been a second generation or more female with literacy if attending Wesleyan Sunday Schools in Sydney…
f) There’s a James TAYLOR in Union Street Paddington as a carpenter in Sands Commercial Directory for Sydney in 1861. Also similar entry in Sands 1867 and the National Directory for 1867 (J TAYLOR). Is this likely to be your James, father of Thomas and Sarah?
Biographical Database of Australia (index free to search, nominal subs are p.a.) https://www.bda-online.org.au/ (ongoing project, :) )
City of Sydney Sands free to search, good search engine http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.msg5267800#msg5267800
City of Sydney boundaries http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=499593.0
City of Sydney Assessment books (excellent as includes renters and landlords)
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/assessment-books
familysearch (free, but need to subscribe no charge) https://www.familysearch.org/hr/search/ search by location can be handy option.
ADD
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/
JM
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I think the following would be Sarah and Thomas' parents.
#243
James TAYLOR aged 21, born in the colony, was granted permission to marry Sarah EDWARDS, aged 26, per Kains, under a life sentence, Rev Wm Cowper, Sydney 6 August 1832.
#90
Sarah EDWARDS per Kains to Sydney 11 March 1831, she could read and write, was a protestant, and was a spinster. Tried at Warwick assizes, 27 March 1830, for robbery, a second offence, sentenced transportation beyond the seas, life.
Granted Conditional Pardon, 1 February 1849.
James born in the colony ... circa 1811 ... :) I wonder if he was at the Male Orphan School in 1825 when one of my NSW born ancestors was there...
JM
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yes JM
that is correct and yes he would have been there when your connection where there too
thank you
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How sure are you that Sarah, witness to Tom's marriage, was Tom's sister?
JM
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it just stated that Sarah Taylor as witness, it could have been his mother but in the section where it said mother it was empty, so not sure if she had already died when Thomas married in 1865
as there was five years differnet in age just thought it would be his sister but hey if that is not right I will go with what you guys reckon
tj
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1865 marriage... blank for mother of the groom.... not unusual for blanks on the NSW BDM registration as it was only a summary. Likely to find the full info given first hand by the bride and the groom on the original church registers... sometimes several registers needed to sort out all the elusive blanks.
Please type up all the info exact as on the 1865 marriage doc..
Blank does not suggest deceased on NSW m.c. in that era.
JM.
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Tom,
Do you know when and where Thomas died? We may be able to find a death or funeral notice or an obit which may perhaps mention or give some clues to a sister.
Ros
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Thomas Taylor died on the 23 Dece 1911 at 30 augustus Street Enmore Newtown and was buried in the Church of England Cemetery at Rookwood on the 26 Dec 1911 he was 76 years old
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On Thomas Taylor Marriage it states the following
Bachelor
place of birth New South Wales
occupation labourer
age 29
residence Sydney
father not stated
mother not stated
Bride mary Ann Timpson
Status spinster
place of birth England
occupation not stated
age 21
Residence Camperdown
father not stated
mother not stated
date of marriage 2101/1865
place Elizabeth St Sydney
Religion Presbyterian
witness Sarah Taylor, John Taylor
Minister James Fullerton
Ref No 1865/71
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Here are Thomas' funeral notices. Apart from his children, one mentions that he is uncle to Mr and Mrs Grierson. Do you know who they are?
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15298381
Ros
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this is Emma Louis Taylor who is the daughter of John Taylor, she married Gordon Grierson
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It seems that this is funeral notice for John TAYLOR, his brother in 1913. It mentions Mr and Mrs Charles GRIERSON and also Mr and Mrs A GRIERSON and others.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15418362
Just in case you don't have it.
Ros
adding : John TAYLOR is said to be a brother-in-law to Mr and Mrs Samuel PARK, Mr and Mrs Jas PARK, Mr and Mrs Robert THOMSON and Mrs Thomas TAYLOR. Are all these accounted for?
adding : Samuel and James PARK are brothers of John's wife Ann according to her funeral notice
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15722164
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On Thomas Taylor Marriage it states the following
Bachelor
place of birth New South Wales
occupation labourer
age 29
residence Sydney
father not stated
mother not stated
Bride mary Ann Timpson
Status spinster
place of birth England
occupation not stated
age 21
Residence Camperdown
father not stated
mother not stated
date of marriage 2101/1865
place Elizabeth St Sydney
Religion Presbyterian
witness Sarah Taylor, John Taylor
Minister James Fullerton
Ref No 1865/71
I have highlighted in red some of my concerns. Rev Fullerton has a reputation for not keeping full details in his local registers, for running a marriage bureau (he was actually charged by police re this) and to add to the confusion, in the mid 1860s, (in NSW) the Church of Scotland (Presbyterians) was in a fractured state with various Reverends falling out with each other, congregations forming into different loyal groups etc ...
http://chineseaustralia.org/an-indecipherable-name-and-rev-dr-fullertons-marriage-shop/ noting it mentions: Fullerton was known not to ask too many questions, and on the registrations of marriages he officiated, the personal details are often scanty and incorrect. For my couple, only minimal details are given and the bride’s age has been stated as being 21 (the age of consent) – she was actually only 17.
The original church registers maintained by Rev. James Fullerton up to 1873 are held by the Uniting Church Archives NSW/ACT, those from 1874 are held by the Presbyterian Church’s Ferguson Memorial Library in Surry Hills. Thanks to archivists at both those institutions, I now know that Fullerton’s original register can shine no more light
Sadly, I cannot see that the 1865 marriage registration gives you confirmation of any parents for Thomas, and worse, as both witnesses were surnamed TAYLOR, it is a real possibility that the Sarah TAYLOR as witness was related to the other witness, rather than to the groom. Taylor was definitely one of the top five surnames in NSW in that decade.
I will continue to search through my offline resources for NSW, as there's likely to be several Thos. TAYLOR chaps born in the colony in the 1830s, and staying in the colony, marrying and having families.
JM
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fingers crossed this live link will give you the listings in the Sands Directory for Sydney for 1866 for TAYLOR as a surname. ADD .. SCROLL DOWN TO PG 51 OF 61 :)
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1858-1869/1866-part4.pdf
Here's the main home page for the free to search Sands:
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
JM
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As an aside :) TIMPSON is not such a popular surname ... noticing there's a Mrs TIMPSON listed in Sands 1866, in Burton St, Cook. (Cook is the local government ward in the City of Sydney municipality), and in the 1869 Sands, there's a Henry TIMSON, Forrest St, Glebe. :)
JM
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NSW Electoral Roll 1870 THE GLEBE
Henry TIMPSON, freehold, Forest St, Glebe.
Thomas TAYLOR, household, Parramatta Old Road, Glebe.
I am confident those two street addresses are very close to each other.
http://atlas.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/
http://atlas.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/maps/glebe-camperdown-newtown-macdonaldtown-darlington-1886/glebe-camperdown-newtown-macdonaldtown-darlington-1886-single-sheet/
JM
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Henry Timpson died on the 12 May 1884 at Marrickville and his wife Mary Ann nee Brown died in 1874 at Glebe
mary ann Timpson was born in 1843 at Somerstown Surrey England
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Thank you for that, it is a great service
Tom
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Have you any transcriptions for birth registrations for children for Thomas? if so, what full address for the place/s of birth, and who was the 'midwife' etc... I have fingers crossed Sarah may have assisted with birthing.
ADD, that type of clue helped me with one of my NSW families from that era. I had family papers showing someone's aunt was often called upon to help nieces with their babies. The birth certs had her as Mrs xyz, and the family papers had no mention of her marriage, but her own bible turned up and it had noted it was presented to her by her parents on the occasion of her marriage. :) then the jigsaw started to work itself out.
JM
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no I have not sorry have not gone that far as yet but I will ask another family member if she has that information
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:) It can be a good back door way to overcome Rev Fullerton's shortcomings. :) Don't go purchasing those birth documents just yet. I have spare moments on Monday afternoon to go through some of my offline resources ... I cannot promise, but I will try to find further clues.
Do you have an occupation for Thomas rather than just 'labourer'?
ADD, searching for females in second half of 19th century NSW can be tricky, and they seem to hide themselves away, particularly if spinsters, so :)
do you have death certs for the 'likely' parents for Thomas ... if so, what info is recorded about 'children of the marriage' ... and when did they die... In other words, is Sarah named on the d.c.... :) if so, she would be alive at that time. :)
JM
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sarah Taylor died on the 25 May 1861 and was buried at Camperdown Cemetery and on the death Cert it has the following
John 27
Thomas 25
Mary Ann 21
.Sarah 18
Elizabeth 16
Caroline 12
So it would have been Sarah as a witness to her brother wedding
can any one find anything on Caroline I have look at BDM and could not find anything
look on family search and still nothing and even try a different spelling
wait some thoughts from you guys
TJ
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sarah Taylor died on the 25 May 1861 ...
John 27
Thomas 25
Mary Ann 21
.Sarah 18
Elizabeth 16
Caroline 12
Sarah was aged 26 in 1832,* so she was in her mid 40s when Caroline was born circa 1849. It is likely that the younger sisters remained with their older siblings, but with the surname TAYLOR in NSW in the mid-late 19th century, you may be seeking to find a needle in a haystack. I will continue to look through my offline resources, but as yet, I have not found anything positive to note.
Fingers crossed others will have thoughts to share too.
*see my reply #3
JM
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"..sarah Taylor died on the 25 May 1861 …"
You need to list all the information on this death certificate please.
It is all important so do not leave out anything.
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well with Sarah sorted now looking for when James died have search most places in and around the Sydney area, where do you suggest that I go next
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Wivenhoe asked for all the info on that death cert, and I strongly support that request ... particularly as it may well help you find info about James ... for example, who was the informant on that d.c. and what was noted on the d.c. as their relationship to Sarah ... what else does the d.c. inform on? Can you deduce if James was alive at that time?
JM
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Sarah died on the 25th May 1861 at Linden House off Parramatta Street
female 58 years
father-Richard Edwards
mother unknown
informant- Thomas Taylor - Son- Linden House
regist- 27 May 1861
buried 28th May 1861 Camperdown Cemetery- R Starslow
where born London- 30 years in N S W
place of marriage--Sydney- 31 years- James Taylor
children of marriageJohn27, Thomas25, Mary Ann 21 Sarah 18, Elizabeth 16, Catherine 12
that is all that is on it
tom
ps
sorry about the delay but laptop died and it was on there so had to get it from a cousin that i had sent it to
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Does it note her status ... eg widow... although as son was informant it is possible / very likely James was not present to make funeral arrangements... so perhaps he was already deceased or working away ... perhaps in other colony, perhaps with eldest son, leaving Thomas to look after mum and young sisters ...
JM
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no it does not say widow so that would mean he was still alive then