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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: CelticMom on Wednesday 06 June 18 13:17 BST (UK)
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So I am having a slight headache with this family and wondered if some fresh eyes might help.
Catherine Fisher was born in 1871 in Bermondsey to Harry (Henry) Fisher and Harriett Ann Ellis
But this is where a headache begins, as far as I can tell Harry did not marry Harriett, but he was up to some kind of tricks.
in 1865 he marries Grace Swine in Penzance.
then in 1868 he has a daughter Mary Ann Fisher in Bermondsey but the mother is Harriett Ann Mills, not Grace Swine.
then in 1871 Harry is living with Grace and daughter Mary Ann Fisher (daughter of Harriett)
in 1871 Catherine Fisher is born in Bermondsey (to Harry and Harriett)
in 1876 Charles William Fisher is born in Camberwell, London (to Harry and Grace), he also dies in 1876
in 1877 Rose Harriet Fisher is born in St Olave Southwark (to Harry and Grace)
in 1880 Martha Fisher is born St Olave Southwark (to Harry and Harriett)
then in 1881 Harry is living with Harriet, not sure what happens to Grace and they both go on to have the follow children:
Harry born 1882 in St Olave Southwark
James William born 1886 St Olave Southwark
George Peter born 1890 St Olave Southwark
Harry remains with Harriett in all later census, and they both end up in the workhouse homeless in the early 1900s, as does Catherine Fisher and some of her children.
She first has children with Benjamin Brett (but I can't find a marriage), when he dies she reverts back to Fisher, then she carries on having a couple more children when in the workhouse and poor and destitute, before meeting Charles Powell and marrying him.
Struggling to find the birth of Benjamin. Strangely Catherine's sister Martha marries a Daniel Brett, who I was convinced would be Benjamin's brother, but it appears he is not, as there is no Benjamin born to that family, even though Daniel and Martha's son is living with Benjamin and Catherine in 1901 as a nephew, but possible because he is Catherine's sisters son, not Benjamin's brother if that makes sense.
I haven't yet found deaths for Harry and Harriett or Grace and I can't find a birth for Harriett. From the poorhouse records she gives a date of birth of around 1842/43 but there is conflicting places of births in the census, mostly given as Surrey, but once given as Cornwall.
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I can't see any GRO registration for the 1871 birth.
What;s the source for these kids?
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Hi the 1880 birth for Martha shows mmn Ellis, in 1881 Martha ( if correct family) was born Redruth, Cornwall
Census ref RG11/560/39/24
Keyboard86
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Same as KB86
St Olave
Harry 1880 mmn ELLIS
James Wm 1886 mmn ELLIS
George Peter 1890 mmn ELLIS
1878 marriageHarry Fisher / Frances ELLIS
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St Olave (Bermondsey)
Catherine 1871 D mmn ELLIS
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Bermondsey 1dMary Ann Fisher 1867 D mmn ELLIS
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1877 St Olave
Rose Harriet Fisher mmn SWINE
AND
1876 Camberwell 1dCharles Wm mmn SWINE
:o
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Thank you, I already have all the birth records for the children.
I don't need to locate those.
They were born to the parents as mentioned in my original post.
It's trying to fathom out the switch between Grace and Harriett and find a birth for Harriett, as well as try to find a birth for Benjamin Brett.
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okay, so I think I have located Grace, she is alot more older than she makes out in 1861.
This is here in 1861
Grace Swine
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: 1827
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: St Erth, Cornwall, England
Civil Parish: St Erth
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England
living with her Grandmother Grace Mitchel
then I have her back in Cornwall in 1891 this time as Grace Fisher, notice she says she is a widow, she definitely isn't as Harry is still alive.
Name: Grace Fisher
Gender: Female
Age: 65
Relationship: Head
Birth Year: 1826
Birth Place: St Erth, Cornwall, England
Civil Parish: Phillack
Residence Place: Phillack, Cornwall, England
I am guessing there was some kind of cheating going on between him and Harriett, when he married Grace and after going between the two, eventually settles with Harriett (although never marries her). It's odd that his daughter Mary Ann Fisher (Harriett is her mother) is with Grace and Harry in 1871, so by that I can only assume Grace knew about Harriett.
Odd situation.
Still can't find a likely birth for Harriett, although I do think she is more likely born in Surrey going by that is where she the majority of the time gives her place of birth.
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Please explain why we make the mother as ELLIS?Details are from GRO.
Ray
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Please explain why we make the mother as ELLIS?Details are from GRO.
Ray
If you read my original post, I've explained it there. It's should be Harriett Ann Ellis, I originally put Mills in error. Sorry! my mistake
Harry has children with two woman Grace Swine (he marries her in 1865) and Harriett Ann Ellis (he doesnt marry her). He is with Grace in the 1871 census, but with Harriett in 1881 census onwards.
Although children born to each woman cross inbetween each other, so he was back and forth between them before settling with Harriett.
This is all fully confirmed through the children between the two woman, as they are witnesses as each other's marriages etc as well as census details.
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Grace must have known Harry was still alive, even though she lists herself as widow in the 1891 census
Her daughter Rose had Harry and Harrietts daughter Catherine Fisher as a witness at her wedding. So all the children were in contact.
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Hi you show in your OP Harriet Ann Mills?
Keyboard86
You have just modified it to Ellis!!
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Hi you show in your OP Harriet Ann Mills?
Keyboard86
yeah sorry that was my error, just noticed that and have corrected. It should be Harriett Ann Ellis, no idea why I put Mills. Tiredness probably lol
I've been working on this family solidly for a few days connecting it all in and it's been confusing to say the least, but finally, have the majority of it fathomed out.
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:) No problem, it is indeed odd as Martha 1880 is clearly shown as being born Redruth in 1881 census above, but registered in St Olave, Surrey. Also in 1901 Harriet Fisher 56 is now born Penzance with Harry?
A Cornish connection somehow?
Census ref 1901 RG13/555/110/12
Keyboard86
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Hi again, Harry 76 and Harriet Ann 68 now born Redruth are still alive 1911 Bermondsey.
They say they have been married 45 years had 12 children 5 living 7 died.
Keyboard86
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Bermondsey 1dMary Ann Fisher 1867 D mmn ELLIS
Hi again, what is the relevance of the children being born in Redruth and registered in Surrey?
1871 census
Henry Fisher 35 occ Tanner b Newington
Grace 25 b Bermondsey
Mary Ann 3 b Redruth, Cornwall.
Census ref RG10/632/102/18
Keyboard86
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1877 St Olave
Rose Harriet Fisher mmn SWINE
AND
1876 Camberwell 1dCharles Wm mmn SWINE
:o
Rose Harriet is baptised in Dec 1887 as the daughter of Harry and Harriet ( at the same time Martha is also baptised).
Isobel
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Hi isobel, yes spotted that, but what is the connection with Mary Ann and Martha both being shown as born Redruth in 1871 census ( If correct ) and Martha in 1881 census?
Keyboard86
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Hi again, two possible deaths:-
Harriett A Fisher Dec qtr 1915 St Olave aged 73
Henry Fisher March qtr 1917 St Olave aged 80
Keyboard86
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Parish entry for the 1865 marriage, registered Penzance, took place in St Erth
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m64/
In the 1871 census in St Erth, one of the marriage witnesses, Edwin Roscorla, has a lodger with his family, 44 year old Grace Fisher, a married laundress born St Erth. So who is the Grace with Henry in the 1871 census?
She's in the workhouse in Illogan in 1901 age 78 so likely death reg for her
Grace Fisher 77 dec qtr 1901 Redruth vol 5c pg 138
As Grace is shown as 34 in 1861 and 44 in 1871, is it likely that she is the mother of the children born in 1876 & 1877? It would be interesting to see who registered the children, in case Henry gave maiden name as of Grace to cover up for lack of marriage.
Henry is shown as a widower on the marriage cert so there should be another marriage to find.
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Grace said she was 34 when she married yet in 1871 the ‘Grace’ with Harry is 25 matching the age of Harriet in later census. I suspect that although she was calling herself Grace it was actually Harriet who was living with Harry in 1871. The fact that Grace appears to be elsewhere would bear this out.
Isobel
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:) Possible yes, but why if correct would the births be registered in Surrey, but on census for Mary Ann/Martha born Redruth?
Keyboard86
EDIT Just a thought, as Harriet shows Redruth in 1911 and Penzance 1901, maybe they "switched" the birth places of Mother and child?
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I've been trying to trace Grace in Cornwall. No Grace Swine or variant showing in 1841 or 1851 census. I can find a marriage for John Swaine in the right area, he married Grace Ellis 5 Nov 1826 in St Erth. Grace Swaine was buried 13 Dec 1834 in Camborne, aged 29, died of consumption. Age at death suggests the baptism of Grace Ellis, daughter of Robert & Grace 16 March 1806 in St Erth.
1841 census Hayle Foundry HO107/144/1 folio 9 pg 9
Robt Ellis 60 ag lab
Grace 60
Grace 15
I can't see a baptism for 15 year old Grace but it's possible she's the daughter of Grace Ellis & John Swaine born before their marriage. John remarried in 1835 in Camborne and had more family with second wife Elizabeth.
1851 census has Grace Ellis 25 b. St Erth in the workhouse in Illogan HO107/1915 folio 656 pg 12. The next line on the census is 2 year old Harriet Ellis b. Illogan.
Birth reg Harriet Ellis march qtr 1849 Redruth vol 9 pg 299 no mother's maiden name.
I haven't as yet found this Harriet later on...
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It's confusing isn't it?
I do wonder now if the Grace in 1871 with Harry is like you say not Grace at all, but Harriett, especially if Grace is showing in Cornwall in 1871.
I've found Grace back in cornwall in 1881, 1891 and 1901 and her age makes her a lot older. But still odd that the births of the children are mixed up between both mother's.
As far as I can tell all children were registered in Bermondsey/St Olave Southwark, none in Cornwall.
There definitely seems to be some odd stuff going on, as Harriett, majority of the time gives her place as birth as Surrey on the census, except for once when she in the workhouse in 1900s she gives her place of birth as Cornwall. It definitely appears she was born 1842/1843.
So Harry married before Grace? I didn't notice the widow part. He definitely doesn't appear to of married Harriett.
Then there is all the confusing stuff with daughter Catherine too and being with Benjamin Brett, but appearing to not actually marry him, then reverting back to Fisher and ended up in the workhouse too with her parents, and continuing to have children even though she is destitute, before finally getting out and marrying Charles Powell.
I was convinced Martha's husband Daniel Brett was the brother of Benjamin, but he doesn't appear to be.
I will look at some of the other stuff you have posted when kids are in bed later.
There is the Grace Mitchell to look into too, who Grace Fisher (nee Swine) is with in 1861 and is shown as her grandmother.
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Harriet/Harriett gives Cornwall twice, 1901/1911, the 1851 Harriet Ellis could be the H E aged 11 b Illogan occ Scholar RG09/1582/141/8?
Keyboard86
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Hi again, two possible deaths:-
Harriett A Fisher Dec qtr 1915 St Olave aged 73
Henry Fisher March qtr 1917 St Olave aged 80
Keyboard86
thank you, that definitely looks like it might be them.
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this looks like the Harriett Ellis born 1849 in Redruth, shame there are no images, it might list parents.
Name: Harriet Ellis
Record Type: Workhouse List
Birth Year: 1849
List or Minutes Date: Sep 1850
List or Minutes Place: Redruth, Cornwall, England
Parish: Camborne
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on one of the workhouse records in the early 1900s, Harriett gives her date of birth as the 18 March 1843
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Just found this birth record and someone has added a note to it to also be Harriet Ellis.
Name: Harriet Swain
[Harriet Ellis]
Registration Year: 1845
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Penzance
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Cornwall
Volume: 9
Page: 235
It's the right quarter going by the what she gives on the poorhouse records.
No mother's name listed, which would make you assume she was born illegitimate. Now I am wondering if Harriet might be the illegitimate daughter of Grace Swine. Maybe Harry ended up with her daughter instead.
this, of course, ties in with the Grace Ellis and Harriet Ellis in the workhouse together in the 1851 census. Now to work out why the switch from Swine/Swain to Ellis.
If my theory is correct, I wonder how she felt about Harry picking her daughter over her, unless the marriage in 1865 of Grace Swine is actually Harriett Ellis, as she appears to be using Grace in 1871.
Such a confusing family.
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it definitely looks like the marriage in 1826 in Cornwall of Grace Ellis and John Swain is Grace's parents or at least her mother.
She was most likely born before they married. Such confusion with this swapping of the Ellis/Swain name.
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This looks like Grace in the 1841 census with Robert and Grace Ellis
Name: Grace Ellis
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Gender: Female
Where born: Cornwall, England
Civil Parish: St Erth
Hundred: Penwith
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England
this could be her parents or it could be grandparents.
edit: it looks like her grandparents, as this looks like Grace Ellis/Swain mothers birth
Day Month 16-Mar
Year 1806
Parish Or Reg District Erth, St.
Forename Grace
Surname ELLIS
Sex Dau
Father Forename Robert
Mother Forename Grace
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Bermondsey 1dMary Ann Fisher 1867 D mmn ELLIS
Hi again, what is the relevance of the children being born in Redruth and registered in Surrey?
1871 census
Henry Fisher 35 occ Tanner b Newington
Grace 25 b Bermondsey
Mary Ann 3 b Redruth, Cornwall.
Census ref RG10/632/102/18
Keyboard86
I wonder if the places of birth got mixed up in the census form. Should be bermondsey for Mary Ann and Redruth for Grace maybe. I do think Grace is actually Harriett here.
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Is this Post on going? I am a direct descendant of Harry and Harriet Fisher and would love to be included in this post. I have the birth certificate of Catherine and also the death certificate of Harriet
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1877 St Olave
Rose Harriet Fisher mmn SWINE
AND
1876 Camberwell 1dCharles Wm mmn SWINE
:o Where are you getting the source of Rose Harriet's Mothers maiden name? do you have the birth certificate? What address do they give ? I have Catherine's, Martha's and James William's
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Hi Tea Clipper
I am still researching this side. I am not related, but another relative is and I am doing the research for them.
You can send me a private message if you like with your email address. As you can see I have pieced together quite a bit now on Catherine, so would love to see what you have found too.
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Hi just thought I'd ask if this post is still alive. I am still very interested in helping with this family. is there any new information?
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Yes I am still researching this line. As mentioned they are not related to me, but are direct ancestors on someone in my family.
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Still working on this part of my family, and I have a couple of certificates of the kids. I would love to know how you know the Mmn is either Ellis or Swine on the certificates. Do you have copies of them? I'm still not sold on the Swine/Ellis link and am trying desperately to make your research fit as I think it's very probable, but I need to convince myself more! Would love to work with you on this, I'm located in the London area and am always going to the metropolitan archives
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Still working on this part of my family, and I have a couple of certificates of the kids. I would love to know how you know the Mmn is either Ellis or Swine on the certificates. Do you have copies of them? I'm still not sold on the Swine/Ellis link and am trying desperately to make your research fit as I think it's very probable, but I need to convince myself more! Would love to work with you on this, I'm located in the London area and am always going to the metropolitan archives
The ellis/swine link is definitely correct. I haven't worked on this branch in a while though as it's not my line but the tree of a relative. If you want to send me a private message I can send you my email address.