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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Jan Prit on Thursday 07 June 18 06:29 BST (UK)

Title: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Thursday 07 June 18 06:29 BST (UK)
Good Afternoon all, I hope I have the right message board. I am trying to find Jane Tindall, Daniel Tindalls wife he was a Convict and sent to Australia. His wife Jane arrived Free on the 12/1/1814 onboard the vessel Kangaroo HMS Brig with their 4 children, Daniel 1795-1876. Mary 1797-1871.James 1800-1865. and Charles 1799-1871, I tried to search through Ancestry but no luck. :-[

Regards,
Janet :-[
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Thursday 07 June 18 06:51 BST (UK)
Hi,

Have you tried searching with the alternative spelling ... TINDALE ... I think you should find her in the NSW general musters ... in Sydney with Daniel as a carpenter, and her as came free, Kangaroo, and their children.

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Thursday 07 June 18 07:01 BST (UK)
Afternoon majm, thanks for your help I will have another search, this family is wearing me down. :'(

Regards,
Janet :-[
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: John Bell on Thursday 07 June 18 07:03 BST (UK)
New South Wales. General Muster 1822.
Tindall, Daniel. C.P.             Ship: ? Spencer. Life. Carpenter. Sydney.
Tindall, Jane.   Came Free. Ship: Kangaroo.          Wife of Daniel.

……………………………………………………
Could this be your man?

New South Wales. Police Gazette. 1863
Stolen between the hours of 10 PM on the 17th and 6 AM on the 18th instant, from the workshop of Daniel Tindall, Liverpool, one smoothing plane, marked D.Tindall on the end, six moulding planes, one handsaw, three small hammers and some chisels. Can be identified. Value 1 pound.

New South Wales. Police Gazette. 1863.
Vide. The joiners tools stolen from the workshop of Daniel Tindall, Liverpool, have been found in the bush.

…………………………………………………………
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Thursday 07 June 18 07:07 BST (UK)
Afternoon John Bell, yes that is the man I am looking for, thanks for your help, I will try and search again. :-[

Regards,
Janet :-[
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: John Bell on Thursday 07 June 18 07:20 BST (UK)
If it is the same Daniel and Jane Tindall residing in Liverpool you're find several other references to them both in regard to leasehold land in Liverpool.
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 07 June 18 07:44 BST (UK)
https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/tindall/daniel/106873

The convict ships don't agree (Duke of Portland and Spencer) but is this your man?
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: rosball on Thursday 07 June 18 08:52 BST (UK)
Possibly Jane's death in 1868 - wife of Daniel TINDALL of Liverpool
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60851516

Ros

adding : this lady was aged 70 in 1868 so born about 1798  ... so not your lady
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Thursday 07 June 18 09:07 BST (UK)
Hello rosball, and everyone for your help, Jane Tindale burial in 1854 Liverpool N.S.W. other help is right thanks again. I am still trying to find the right wife of Daniel, some entries are Jane Amelia Jane Doyle, others are just Jane. :-[ :-[

Regards,
Janet :-\
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: John Bell on Thursday 07 June 18 09:27 BST (UK)
Hi Janet,

There is a family tree on Ancestry giving details of Daniel Tindall (1758 – 1827) being married to Jane Davis (1777 – 1854).
This family tree has Daniel Tindall being convicted of High Treason for plotting to kill George III and sentenced to death. This was later commuted to transportation for life. He arrived in New South Wales aboard the Duke of Portland in 1807. His wife Jane and children arrive later on the Kangaroo. He was a carpenter and he and his family later lived in Liverpool.

I am sure there are more than one Daniel Tindall who came out as a convict, sorting out the correct details between them may take a while.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Thursday 07 June 18 09:39 BST (UK)
Thanks John Bell, I am searching through Surrey CD's at the moment and found a James Tindall marriage to a Jane Davis Croydon St. John 27/11/1792 and 3 possibilities of Surname starting with Jane, I don't know how the name of Amelia Jane (Jane) came into the picture as so many on Ancestry have this entry and can't explain how they got it?? :-\

Regards,
Janet :-[
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Thursday 20 September 18 08:46 BST (UK)
Good Evening All, still can't find the proper marriage of Amelia Jane, entries listed she was born in Southwark, Surrey, Egham some with different names, dates. I guess this ancestor will always be a question mark, perhaps they were married whilst Daniel was in prison before he came to N.S.W. I did find a few surnames of Jane on the Surrey CD's. :-X :'(

Regards,
Janet :(
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Thursday 20 September 18 11:17 BST (UK)
QUESTION

Have you considered the December 1856 marriage of James TINDALE .... recently Ancestry uploaded digitised images of a number of the Sydney Diocese C of E parish registers.  These often include the maiden name of the mother of the bride and groom, particularly once civil registration commenced (1 March 1856) ADD the heading reads 'Names (Mother's Maiden Name)'

entry 7 in the parish register of St Lukes, Liverpool, 1 December 1856, St Lukes Church, Liverpool,
James Tindale,  bachelor, born Liverpool, a Carrier, aged 34, present and usual residence at Liverpool,  mother as Jane BALL, father’s rank/profession as undertaker
Married
Ann Beale, widow, (husband died 6 December 1854, 2 living children, 4 deceased,) born Sydney, present and usual residence at Liverpool, mother as Elizabeth xxx, father’s rank/profession as Sexton of St Phillips Church.

ADD ... forgot to include the witness names (both signed) as Thomas TINSDALL and Susannah TINDALL and that James signed as James TINDALL and Ann signed as ANN BEALE

NOTICE the headings make NO provision for the name of the father of the bride or groom, notice also the additional info confirming Ann as a widow includes when her husband had died, and the number of children of that marriage) and I am sure you would recognise that carpenters would also have been called upon to construct coffins, so perhaps have undertaken undertaking duties.


Also noticed the following in those digitised parish registers ... there could be others but the spellings may be of interest, although I think likely you will already have these.   
St Lukes C of E,  Liverpool, NSW church registers
Jane, daughter of Daniel and Jane TYNDALL of this district, born May 5, 1817, baptised  March 23, 1818
Susanna, dau of Daniel and Jane TYNDALL of the district of Liverpool, born December 18  1817, baptised July 23, 1818
Jane TYNDALL, aged 5, burial 15 July 1822
James, son of Daniel and Jane TYNDALL of the district of Liverpool, born March 26, 1822, baptised March 30, 1823
Daniel William, son of Daniel and Jane TINDALL, of Liverpool, carpenter, born May 30, 1828, baptised July 6, 1828
Alfred, son of Daniel and Jane TINDAL (Daniel as a carpenter), district of Liverpool, born August 9, 1838, baptised August 22, 1838

Fingers crossed. 


JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 20 September 18 11:51 BST (UK)
The 1856 marriage is for James born c1822, the son of Daniel and grandson of the convict Daniel.  Both Daniels married a Jane and you can see the families together on the 1825 muster.

Her surname is BULL in the indexes.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Thursday 20 September 18 11:55 BST (UK)
 :D

Thanks Debra, well that's sorted then, so Janet is still left with the search for the maiden name of Jane, wife of Daniel who was transported ...

I was fascinated to see the depth of the info available on the St Luke's parish register in 1856  :)

ADD, as an aside I have re-checked the 1856 m.c. and I err  still think that that Jane's surname is recorded there as BALL  ::) even after looking at the scribe's 'u' in Luke and the 'a' in 'we are' and in 'Chas' (Rev'd Priddle)

JM  :)
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 20 September 18 13:42 BST (UK)

Her surname is BULL in the indexes.

Debra  :)

I meant for her marriage to Daniel in 1817.

Janet, is it correct that most of convict Daniel and Jane's children died after civil registration started in 1856.  Do none of their death certificates give a maiden surname for their mother?

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Thursday 20 September 18 23:28 BST (UK)
Thank you all for your help, and advice all of the entries you find on Ancestry throw you around and you don't know where to start or believe, this family has always been confusing even the Web Page in N.S.W. Monaro who have the complete Tindall records, don't reply to you and explain the right person who married Daniel Tindall the convict. :'(

Janet :-[
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: judb on Friday 21 September 18 04:35 BST (UK)
The reason for Daniel TINDALL's transportation is interesting in that he was tried fro High Treason, as mentioned above by John Bell.  He seems very lucky to have had his sentence commuted to transportation as the original sentence for the conspirators was tha tthey were to be hung, drawn and quartered.  The leader of the group and 6 others were executed but TINDALL, Thomas NEWMAN and William LANDER were transported.  There are  references on Google and some comentators suggest that there was actually not a great deal of evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despard_Plot

None of this helps find Jane's name, though!

Judith
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Friday 21 September 18 05:13 BST (UK)
Thanks to you all for your help I may look at the baptisms in England for the children or the burial records here in N.S.W. trouble is they are very expensive. :-[

Regards,
Janet :-\
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 05:18 BST (UK)
Hi Jan,

If buried in NSW, within the Sydney Diocese of the C of E, likely the actual parish burial record has recently been digitised and uploaded to Ancestry.  :)   (St Lukes, Liverpool is within Sydney Diocese  :) )...


JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: judb on Friday 21 September 18 05:38 BST (UK)
JM, there is a photo of a gravestone for him on Ancestry which seems to say that he was re-buried at Liverpool from the Sydney Devonshire St cemetery. Some of the inscription is quite worn - this is what I can make out:
Sacred
To The Memory of
Daniel Tindall who departed this Life on the 28th of
January 182?
Aged 65 Years
Leaving a Wife and six Children to Lament their Loss
May The Lord have Mercy on his Soul
Re-interred? ed from Devonshire St
[/i]

The stone is apparently in Liverpool Memorial Park.

I have no idea whether there were records of these reburials.

Judith

Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 06:25 BST (UK)
I think that would be 1827, so likely Daniel, husband of Jane whose surname we are striving to find ... 

Now to find Emma TINDALL's death, she was born in NSW 1815 :) and should be a daughter of the above,  if she died after 1 March 1856 and her death registered in NSW,  her mum's maiden name should be on that registration as per Debra's suggestion...

A submitted tree has her marrying twice ... Burrell and Rossiter ...  :)  perhaps one of those would be post 1856 too  :)

JM

Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 September 18 06:43 BST (UK)
132/1830 V1830132 14 ROSTIER William TYNDALL Emma CD

305/1844 V1844305 29 BURRELL James ROSSITER Emma CD

8828/1904 BURRELL Emma parents DANIEL and JANE BURWOOD

Notice, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228260917

Jamjar

Added:

At ROOKWOOD: EMMA BURRELL 89 19.09.1904 Zone B 04 922
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 06:49 BST (UK)
NSW BDM has that 1904 death indexed with parents as Daniel and Jane  :)  I wonder if Jane's maiden name would have been passed on to the 1904 informant  :)


JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: CassT on Friday 21 September 18 06:52 BST (UK)
Hi there is a record on NSW State Archives site

regarding re internment at Liverpool

" Devonshire Street Cemetery Reinterment Index, 1901"

TINDALL   Daniel   Date of Death 28/01/1827   Reinterred    Liverpool

Cass

Just did a search on Trove search on "ALL" records and there is a record of a photo of Jane TINDALL's    headstone at Liverpool
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/209769660?q=daniel+tindall&c=picture&versionId=230247080

also includes links to death notices of family members. Records Jane's siblings as John, Richard, James and William BULL

Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 September 18 07:19 BST (UK)

Her surname is BULL in the indexes.

Debra  :)

I meant for her marriage to Daniel in 1817.

Janet, is it correct that most of convict Daniel and Jane's children died after civil registration started in 1856.  Do none of their death certificates give a maiden surname for their mother?

Debra  :)

Yes, Daniel Jnr married Jane BULL, as per her death notice:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60851516

Added: Daniel Jnr funeral notices: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13377194

Mm: 7168/1876 TINDALL Daniel mother MARY LIVERPOOL
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 September 18 07:30 BST (UK)
8620/1891 TINDALL JAMES parents DANIEL and JANE LIVERPOOL

Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article111987806

Funeral notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13855370

Jamjar

Added: Think this is a son of Daniel Jnr.

Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 08:17 BST (UK)
I cannot find any clues in Emma's 1844 marriage, but here's my transcription of it  :)

Emma ‘s 1844 marriage:

15 May 1844, Christ Church C of E, Castlereagh, Rev John VINCENT
James BURRELL aged 20, a bachelor, Free, of Castlereagh, signed with X mark
Married by Banns with consent of parents to
Emma ROSSITER, Widow, of Castlereagh
Witnesses  signed his name William GIBBONS, of Agnes Banks, and signed her name Elizabeth WALLACE, of Agnes Banks. 

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 08:30 BST (UK)
8 August 1830
William ROSSITER, (Free, per the ship, David Shaw) aged 28 years, married by Banns Emma TINDAL, born in the colony, aged 16 years, married at Christ Church C of E, Castlereagh. 

no clues there either...  :-X

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Friday 21 September 18 08:47 BST (UK)
Thank you all so much in helping me solve this puzzle, if only ancestors of this family had proof of baptisms, marriage's we wouldn't be going around in circles trying to solve this puzzle. :-[

Regards,
Janet :-X
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 September 18 09:33 BST (UK)
Daughter Mary’s marriage?

1988/1816 V18161988 3A BURCHIN STEPHEN TINDALL MARY CB (should be BURCHER)

3056/1838 BURCHER Stephen V18383056 2A AGE 42

Death of their son William: 1258/1853 BURCHER William V18531258 39B AGE 33

Stephen and William at Liverpool, not Mary:

http://austcemindex.com/?family_name=Burcher&cemetery=1705

Jamjar

Add: Son William also married a BULL.

Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 September 18 09:38 BST (UK)
Wonder who submitted this:

Tindall Daniel 16 Mar 1795 25 Jul 1876 81 son/Daniel & Amelia Jane (Doyle); b. Southwark, Middlesex, England; h/Jane (Bull) Liverpool Pioneer Memorial Park NSW

Jamjar

I think whoever put it up has got themselves all confused:

http://austcemindex.com/family-tree?id=15837541

If I’m understanding this correctly, it is saying that JANE, is Amelia Jane Doyle who married a Charles Palmer before she married Daniel Tindall, or that she married Palmer after Daniel’s death.

2276/1854 PALMER JANE V18542276 41A AGE 77

Added: 800/1829 V1829800 13 PALMER CHARLES to TINDALL JANE CJ
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 10:52 BST (UK)
Well,  errr .... 2 August 1829, Charles PALMER aged 50, a Widower, and a farmer, of Castlereagh St (Sydney) married the widow, Jane TINDALL. NO mention of Jane's nee name, or her ship of arrival, or her witnesses, or the name of her deceased husband, etc in my resources.  Sorry.  BUT on one of the ROSSITER records,  there's a Charles Palmer and and Emelia Palmer  ::)

   
Oh what a confuddlement on that submitted 'chart' that Jamjar spotted ...  ;D

I hope to untangle a bit of it in my next post...

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 10:58 BST (UK)
A bit of a side track but it may help sort some PALMER thingys…
May 1826, Castlereagh C of E
Edward STACK, Free, of St James, Sydney married Sabina PALMER, free, of Evan. Witnesses were Charles PALMER and Emelia PALMER both of Evan, and BOTH of Sabina’s parents gave their consent to her marriage.

So, Daniel TINDALL died in January 1827, and as Charles and Emelia (assuming this is Amelia Jane) are husband and wife, with a daughter old enough to marry, but not yet of full age, and that lass marries in May 1826 …

So it seems to me that Amelia Jane DOYLE and Mrs Jane TINDALL are two separate people.

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: judb on Friday 21 September 18 10:58 BST (UK)
Ok

Am I right in my interpretation?

From the information about the headstone found on TROVE by CassT

Jane Palmer
Wife of Daniel Tindall Senr.
Died 12th. August 1854
Aged 77 years

So born abt 1777

Wondering what the significance of the "Palmer" name is - I can't enlarge the image to be able to read it so am just going on the transcription.
This looks to be the death reg:
NSW 1854 Jane PALMER, Age 77, Reg: 2276/1854 V18542276 41

And the marriage for Jane
800/1829 V1829800 13 district: CJ
Charlles PALMER, Jane TINDALL,

Still no mention of her parents' names.

Judith

Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 11:03 BST (UK)
And

When Emma TYNDALL, at age 16 married William ROSITER aged 28, the witnesses were Charles PALMER and Mary BURCHER.   This was in 1830, at Castlereagh C of E, Rev Fulton.

So, Charles PALMER and Mrs Jane TINDALL married 2 August 1829, and it is possible to deduce (but could also be way off track) that Charles married the widow of Daniel TINDALL, who had died in Jan 1827...

Still does NOT give us a maiden name for Jane, that widow of that Daniel.

Mud is clearer !

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 September 18 11:04 BST (UK)
If the Liverpool headstone information is correct, there is a link to the death notice for Henry. It mentions a brother John.

7845/1891 TINDALL JOHN parents DANIEL and JANE KOGARAH

Death notice has him aged 74: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13871931

Must admit I am totally confused myself, by myself. Not sure if he is son of Daniel Snr or Jnr.  :o

At ROOKWOOD:

JOHN TINDALL 74 11.11.1891 Zone B C 373

Jamjar
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 11:10 BST (UK)
I think that James at Rookwood aged 74 in 1891 had a brother named Thomas and maybe they are sons of Daniel Junior ... BUT I COULD BE WRONG ....    my notes from this search today are in a scribble that reminds me of some of the scribble found on NSW parish registers... my scribble says James and Thomas & FD 1876 ...

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13377194 smh 26 July 1876


Add Oops,  I am confusing myself,  John or James...   :-X  I have struck through some words...

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 September 18 11:17 BST (UK)
John, JM.

His marriage: 4860/1830 V18304860 3B TINDALL JOHN R to WYBROW Mary CW

Buried with JOHN  ;D ;D ;D

MARY ANN TINDALL 58 30.12.1879 Zone B C 373

Her funeral notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13439975

Jamjar

John would have been born 1817, so Emma’s brother, yes?
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 11:22 BST (UK)
Agh, so John is likely to be brother to Emma,  YES,  thanks for sorting that JJ  ...  One of the regulars on this board has been searching on WHYBROW ... I will try to recall who and send a PM  :)

I think Mr Charles PALMER had a daughter named Athelia…   
See the names of those donating in the Sydney Gaz of 12 Nov 1827

 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2189339

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 September 18 11:24 BST (UK)
Birth of John:

5149/1819 V18195149 1B TYNDAL JOHN parents DANIEL and JANE

Jamjar
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 11:29 BST (UK)
Daniel Tindall (Junior) married Jane BULL in 1817 ... so John may be their son, and therefore grandson of Daniel and Jane...

(ADD,  Emma was baptised in 1815  :) daughter of Daniel and Jane TINDALL, )

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: judb on Friday 21 September 18 11:33 BST (UK)
There is  1795 baptism record for :
Daniel TINDELL, 19 April 1795
at St Olave, Bermondsey, Southwark, Surrey   
Parents: Daniel, (carpenter), Jane

This date matches with the age of Daniel Tindall Junr, died 25th. July 1876, aged 81

There is no mention of the name Amelia'
Another child baptised at St Olaves has the same parents and father's occupation
Mary, born 4 May , baptised May 28, 1797

And at St George the Martyr, Southwark, same parent names but no occupation shown for the father
Charles, born 6 April baptised 6 October, 1799
Jane, b 27 March, baptised 15 April 1802

Judith

Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 September 18 11:37 BST (UK)
Daniel Tindall (Junior) married Jane BULL in 1817 ... so John may be their son, and therefore grandson of Daniel and Jane...

JM

Mm, looks like one of the Daniels had twins, or one to each Daniel   ;):

4398/1817 V18174398 1B TYNDAL Jane DANIEL and JANE

4505/1817 V18174505 1B TYNDELL Susannah DANIEL and JANE

I can’t find a birth for Henry.

Jamjar
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 11:39 BST (UK)
 :)

Well found Judith,

So we are looking for a marriage for Jane and Daniel prior to April 1795  :) in Surrey or thereabouts  :)

JJ,  unlikely to be twins,  differences in the line numbers in same register (1B) 4398 and 4505   :D


JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 11:41 BST (UK)
....

Also noticed the following in those digitised parish registers ... there could be others but the spellings may be of interest, although I think likely you will already have these.   
St Lukes C of E,  Liverpool, NSW church registers
Jane, daughter of Daniel and Jane TYNDALL of this district, born May 5, 1817, baptised  March 23, 1818
Susanna, dau of Daniel and Jane TYNDALL of the district of Liverpool, born December 18  1817, baptised July 23, 1818
Jane TYNDALL, aged 5, burial 15 July 1822
James, son of Daniel and Jane TYNDALL of the district of Liverpool, born March 26, 1822, baptised March 30, 1823
Daniel William, son of Daniel and Jane TINDALL, of Liverpool, carpenter, born May 30, 1828, baptised July 6, 1828
Alfred, son of Daniel and Jane TINDAL (Daniel as a carpenter), district of Liverpool, born August 9, 1838, baptised August 22, 1838
...

Adding here, to save scrolling back and forth  ::)  ADD I will go back over that register tomorrow to see if there's others... (IF no one else has had the opportunity)

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: judb on Friday 21 September 18 11:52 BST (UK)
There is one that fits but no proof at all, although one of the trees gives this surname to Jane.  Croydon is about 10 miles from Southwark so it seems a bit iffy to me.
28 Nov 1792
Marriage Place:   Croydon, St John, Surrey, England, 28 Nov 1792
Daniel TINDALL
Jane DAVIS

The image has no other info except that Daniel signed, Jane DAVIS used a cross and the witnesses were Edward HEAD?? and Sarah TISGATE??  No parent names, no occupations

Do we have a signature of Daniel senior anywhere which may be used for comparison?

Judith




Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Friday 21 September 18 12:02 BST (UK)
Rev Samuel MARSDEN, at St Johns, C of E, Parramatta

Bunbury Curran (JM mentions that this is a margin note, I recognise as a locality near current Macquarie Fields, ie district of Liverpool, )

Bunbury Curran
Emma, Daughter of Daniel TINDALL and Jane his wife, was born July 10, 1815 and Christened August 14, 1815, and registered same day by me, Samuel Marsden.   

Judith,  I have not found his signature yet, but I will look again tomorrow.  I think Jane, his widow, signed in 1829, but by then some of the children may have taught her.   I know that convict children were given lessons on reading and writing on the voyage to NSW, often this was done with any children of garrison families if allowed to come too.  Also, Governor Macquarie was one for promoting R & W and the Wesleyan Sunday Schools starting in Macquarie era were strong on R & W so the population could read the Bible for themselves.

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 September 18 12:26 BST (UK)
Marriage: 2210/1866 SIMPSON William to TINDALL Susannah LIVERPOOL

Notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article63513015

Death: 11003/1926 SIMPSON Susannah parents DANIEL and JANE SUTHERLAND

At Woronora:

Anglican Monumental - Section L - 0021

Susannah Simpson 22-6-1926 (86years)

William Simpson 11-1-1918 (77years and 7mths)

Mary G Simpson 29-6-1911 ( daughter of William and Susannah, born 1867)

Dudley H Simpson 5-12-13 (son of Henry C and Bessie)

Henry C Simpson 29-11-1920 (son of William and Susannah, born 1874)

Jamjar

Mm, if she had Henry in 1874, then she would have been in her 50s at time of birth.

Ok, not her, as she was born in 1840.

1340/1840 V18401340 25A TINDALL SUSANNAH parents DANIEL and JANE






Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Saturday 22 September 18 04:51 BST (UK)
Thank you all for your help I have sent a message to the Library at St. Olave Bermondsey hoping they have a copy of the baptism of Daniel Tindall, if not I will try another child of the marriage. :-[

Regards,
Janet :-[
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 22 September 18 06:28 BST (UK)
What are you hoping to find from the baptism record?

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: judb on Saturday 22 September 18 06:37 BST (UK)
Hi Janet

The image of the parish record for the baptism of Daniel TINDALL, 1795 at St Olave's church  is on Ancestry. I posted a transcription of the information from that image in  Reply #42. There is no other information on that record; no maiden name for Jane, no place of abode - there is the name of the clergy who conducted the baptism, and this name, obviously, is the same for all baptisms conducted at that time.

As this is an actual image of the parish register I would be surprised if there is any more information held at the church.

Judith
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Saturday 22 September 18 07:36 BST (UK)
1825 General Muster
Several families surname TINDALL and variations

Daniel TINDALL, ex Duke of Portland 1807, Life, Carpenter
Jane TINDALL, ex Kangaroo 1814, wife of Daniel Tindall
James TINDALL, 14 (years old,) b.c. (as in born in Colony, yet marked “ as in ex Kangaroo 1814,) son of Daniel Tindall
Emma TINDALL, 9,  b.c.  “ daughter of Daniel Tindall
Susanna TINDALL, 7, b.c. (and like Emma, also a “ as though they are both like James, ex Kangaroo 1814)

John TINDALL ex Indefatigable 1815, 14 year sentence, Government servant to his wife at Richmond
Susanna TINDALE ex Surry 1822, Shop Keeper, Sydney
John Richard TINDALE , ex Surry 1822, son of Susanna TINDALE  of Sydney

Daniel TINDALL, ex Kangaroo 1814, Publican, Liverpool
Jane TINDALL, ex Minerva, 1814, wife of Daniel Tindall Publ….
Mary TINDALL, ex Kangaroo 1814, sister of Daniel Tindall, publ…
John TINDALL, 5 years, son of Daniel Tindall, publ…
James TINDALL, 3  years, son of Daniel Tindall, publ
Daniell TINDALL, 1 year, son of Daniel Tindall, publ

John TINDALL, ex Indian 1810, landholder at Evan (District near Bathurst)
Charlotte TINDALL, ex Friends 1811, wife of John Tindall, Evan District
William TINDALL, 13, b.c. (born in colony) son of John Tindall, Evan district
George TINDALL, 11, b.c. son of John Tindall, Evan district
John TINDALL, 8, b.c. son of John Tindall, Evan district
Charlotte TINDALL, 5, b.c. son of John Tindall, Evan district
John TINDALL, 3, b.c. son of John Tindall, Evan district

John TINDALL, ex Guildford 1818, 14 year sentence, Landholder Bringelly
William TINDALL, b.c. son of John Tindall, Bringelly
Hester TINDALL, 4, b.c. daughter of John Tindall, Bringelly
Jane TINDALL, 2, b.c. daughter of John Tindall, Bringelly
Mary Ann TINDALL, ˝ b.c. daughter of John Tindall, Bringelly

I HAVE NOT YET FOUND ANY NSW DOCUMENT WITH SIGNATURE OF DANIEL TINDALL, the carpenter, who arrived under a Life Sentence.   Is his signature on any UK document? - perhaps on that TINDALL = DAVIS marriage ... or did he make his mark ...  :)  happy to keep looking through NSW documents if we have a signature to compare with ...  ;D  ;D

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Saturday 22 September 18 09:05 BST (UK)
Thanks for your help majm and everyone else, this family is driving me mad, too many possibilities to search for I will keep looking elsewhere. :-[

Janet :'(
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Saturday 22 September 18 09:44 BST (UK)
Don't panic,  I think between us all, we will at least be eliminating some of the earlier sightings for you.

 :D

JM

Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Saturday 22 September 18 23:12 BST (UK)
Good Morning majm  thanks for your help I may have the burial of Jane after she married a Charles Palmer, my room is in a mess and need to sort out a few things, I am sure their is no parents listed for her. I am starting to think she maybe a Alien. :-[

Regards,
Janet :-\
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: judb on Sunday 23 September 18 03:47 BST (UK)
Looking for a siognature but nothing so far.

However I've found a couple of bits for you - nothing about Jane though.

You will recall that I put up baptisms in Reply #42 with parents Daniel and Jane

At St Olave, Bermondsey Southwark
1795 Daniel TINDELL,
1797 Mary 

And at St George the Martyr, Southwark,
1799 Charles,
1802 Jane,

I've found some Land Tax records which would fit.

Vine St, parish of St George the Martyr, Southwark
1803 and 1804
Tenant: Dan'l TINDALL, Vine Yard sum assessed 11shillings  8pence (this is quite a large sum, most of the others dwellings are less although a timber yard and a cow yard are higher)
Proprietor:   Bullock - Taylor A Braker In Blankman Street

There are some earlier ones but the spelling is TINDLE and they are in Tower Hamlets which is the other side of the Thames, so I don't think they are relevant.

Vine St is still there on Googlemap but it's all modern buildings. It's near the tube station of Borough.  The church of St George the Martyr is also still there.

Judith

Perhaps you're right, Janet - she is an alien.  Seriously, you may never find her with certainty.  We're looking for records over 200 years old which may have been lost and anyway contain less information than that required today.  For example the marriage which MAY be Daniel and Jane does not have any address, no parent names, no ages, no occupations, so we can't be sure either way.  The only thing it does have is a signature of the groom so we could compare that IF we could find any other document signed by Daniel.
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Sunday 23 September 18 05:02 BST (UK)
There was a petition from Daniel to the NSW Governor, 1 Dec 1817.   I have contacted a friend who has concentrated their research on the Col Sec papers to see if the document is in the hand of one of the usual petition scribes who earnt their living at scribing in Sydney Town in that era...  :) and also a petition when a carpenter in Castlereagh St, in Sept 1824 ... I have not yet heard back, they are retired and may be grey nomadding  ::).   I sent them a link to this thread,  and suggested they would be great asset to RChat  ;)  ;)

Col Sec papers...  http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/t/F56c_ti-ty-02.htm#P898_29196 

ADD
Fingers crossed there will be Daniel as signature at least  :)  :)  :)  Then there's the experts on RChat's handwriting board who will see if in same hand, even though there's couple of decades between marriage and NSW docs which may well be digitised and viewable on Ancestry.   

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Sunday 23 September 18 07:53 BST (UK)
Thanks again majm and JM, When I first started this search of this family, I searched through CD's of Surrey marriages, I found one entry of a marriage between Samuel Jane and Ann at Kingston Upon Thames the year 1768. The other entry was for a John Jane and Ann Perry marriage 20/9/1774 Farnham Surrey, I haven't yet searched baptisms if they had a daughter named Amelia Jane (Jane) this was the first hint of Daniel Tindall's marriage in the beginning, now it seems to have taken a turn of just anybody, Jane Davies, Jane Sawyer, Amelia Jane Doyle (this one I can't find) truthfully no one really knows, like a stab in the dark even the Tindall ancestors who lived in Liverpool N.S.W. just enter anything. :-[ :'( I think that I will move on to another ancestor and have a break from this family. :'(

Regards,
Janet :-X
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jang on Sunday 23 September 18 09:36 BST (UK)
Thanks to JM for pointing out this thread. Sorry, I don't know much about the Tindale/Tindalls - my interest is in Wybrow - but you can eliminate the John Tindall who married Mary Wybrow from your family.

Mary Wybrow was the daughter of convicts William Wybrow (Ganges, 1797) and Elizabeth Clark (aka Crookshank) (Speke, 1808). Elizabeth left her husband and lived with a John Tindall at Penrith from about 1820 and had at least six children with him between 1821 and 1830.

Mary Wybrow married her stepbrother, John Richard Tindall, in 1830. I was told that he was born in St Leonard, Shoreditch, London, England on 13 November 1809, the first child of John William Tindale (circa 1789-1857) and Susannah Emma Manwaring (circa 1780-1828). He died on 6 June 1872 in New Town Tasmania.

John senior was convicted of having forged banknotes in his possession and arrived on the "Guildford" in 1812.

Jan
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Sunday 23 September 18 10:27 BST (UK)
At #33 I am sure I have explained that Amelia Jane is a different person from Jane -  Amelia Jane was the first wife of Charles PALMER, and after her death, Charles married the widow Jane TINDALL.    :D

If this were my family tree, I would be satisfied that Amelia Jane was the mother of Sabina PALMER and the other children listed on the 1825 Muster,  I can see that the C of E records Chas PALMER’s wife as Mary Ann, while the Wesleyan records have transcribed her given names as Amelia, Athelia, Athemia, and Emelia.  See below:

From the 1820 Richmond NSW population book, and the image that the NSW State Archives has allowed Ancestry to upload:
Chas PALMER has at his location :
Mary Ann PALMER, c.f. (came free)
Sabina PALMER (c.f.)
Athelia PALMER b.c. (born in the colony)

1825 Muster at C. PALMER,  at Richmond, Sydney
Mrs A PALMER, c.f.  (dead) wife of C Palmer
Sabina PALMER, 25, b.c.  and the others as listed below noted are bracketed together as children  of C Palmer
Althelia PALMER, 23, b.c.
Almeriah PALMER, 19 b.c.
Matilda PALMER, 9, b.c.
Euphemia PALMER, 13, b.c.

From the baptismal record for Matilda PALMER, 
Matilda, daughter of Charles and Athelia PALMER, he a farmer, was born 2 March 1816 and baptised 30 October 1827, by Rev G Erskine at Windsor, Wesley rites.  The Rev Erskine then transmitted the information to Rev John Cross who registered the baptism in the register of St Matthews C of E, Windsor.

http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/erskine-george-27963

The NSW governor, Lachlan Macquarie, issued a general order in 1810 that required clergy of any denomination to transmit details of baptisms and burials (and marriages in a separate general order) to the NSW Chaplains.   Many times when going through the C of E records in the years until civil registration commenced in 1856, you can find where other denominations transmitted their records via C of E parish registers.   Several of my NSW ancestors baptisms were Wesleyan and these are findable at NSW BDM online index, one has five entries, as it was at a remote locality and by a Wesleyan,  and then transmitted several times, eventually arriving at Rev W Cowper's  :) C of E, Sydney. 

NSW State Archives has some archival material in one of their briefs, and the Paracensus of 1828 by James Donoghue has details too, and several other recognised published genealogists have written on this too.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/628150 Govt Gaz 22 December 1810

.....HIS EXCELLENCY at the same time enjoins the said Principal and Assistant Chaplains, as an Act of reciprocal benefit to all Classes of the Society, to keep or cause to be kept exact Registers of all Marriages, Christenings, Churching of Women, and Funerals which they may in future perform, and make a correct Return thereof once in every Quarter, to the Secretary's Office at Sydney; and said Registers are required to contain the Marriages, Christenings, Churchings, and Funerals, as well of all Convicts and Prisoners as of Free Persons ....


JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Sunday 23 September 18 23:18 BST (UK)
Good Morning majm, thanks for your reply but I was referring to the Daniel Tindall born 1758 Egham Surrey England, he died 28/1/1827 Castlereagh N.S.W. He married a Amelia Jane (Jane) 1794 Southwark Surrey England, she was born 1777/1779 England and died 12/8/1854 Liverpool N.S.W. :-[

Regards,
Janet :-X
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Monday 24 September 18 00:11 BST (UK)
Yes,  I am referring to that same Jane.

The first wife of Charles PALMER was Amelia.  When Charles next married, he, a widower, married Jane, a widow.  That second wife was clearly named on that NSW marriage as Jane TINDALL and her headstone for her 1854 death gives confirmation that she had been twice married.

Daniel died January 1827 in Castlereagh St, SYDNEY and buried Devonshire St Cemetery, reinterred to Liverpool in 1901
Hi there is a record on NSW State Archives site

regarding re internment at Liverpool

" Devonshire Street Cemetery Reinterment Index, 1901"

TINDALL   Daniel   Date of Death 28/01/1827   Reinterred    Liverpool

Cass

Just did a search on Trove search on "ALL" records and there is a record of a photo of Jane TINDALL's    headstone at Liverpool
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/209769660?q=daniel+tindall&c=picture&versionId=230247080

also includes links to death notices of family members. Records Jane's siblings as John, Richard, James and William BULL

Wonder who submitted this:

Tindall Daniel 16 Mar 1795 25 Jul 1876 81 son/Daniel & Amelia Jane (Doyle); b. Southwark, Middlesex, England; h/Jane (Bull) Liverpool Pioneer Memorial Park NSW

Jamjar

I think whoever put it up has got themselves all confused:

http://austcemindex.com/family-tree?id=15837541

If I’m understanding this correctly, it is saying that JANE, is Amelia Jane Doyle who married a Charles Palmer before she married Daniel Tindall, or that she married Palmer after Daniel’s death.

2276/1854 PALMER JANE V18542276 41A AGE 77

Added: 800/1829 V1829800 13 PALMER CHARLES to TINDALL JANE CJ

Well,  errr .... 2 August 1829, Charles PALMER aged 50, a Widower, and a farmer, of Castlereagh St (Sydney) married the widow, Jane TINDALL. NO mention of Jane's nee name, or her ship of arrival, or her witnesses, or the name of her deceased husband, etc in my resources.  Sorry.  BUT on one of the ROSSITER records,  there's a Charles Palmer and and Emelia Palmer  ::)
...

A bit of a side track but it may help sort some PALMER thingys…
May 1826, Castlereagh C of E
Edward STACK, Free, of St James, Sydney married Sabina PALMER, free, of Evan. Witnesses were Charles PALMER and Emelia PALMER both of Evan, and BOTH of Sabina’s parents gave their consent to her marriage.

So, Daniel TINDALL died in January 1827, and as Charles and Emelia (assuming this is Amelia Jane) are husband and wife, with a daughter old enough to marry, but not yet of full age, and that lass marries in May 1826 …

So it seems to me that Amelia Jane DOYLE and Mrs Jane TINDALL are two separate people.

JM

There is  1795 baptism record for :
Daniel TINDELL, 19 April 1795
at St Olave, Bermondsey, Southwark, Surrey   
Parents: Daniel, (carpenter), Jane

This date matches with the age of Daniel Tindall Junr, died 25th. July 1876, aged 81

There is no mention of the name Amelia'
Another child baptised at St Olaves has the same parents and father's occupation
Mary, born 4 May , baptised May 28, 1797

And at St George the Martyr, Southwark, same parent names but no occupation shown for the father
Charles, born 6 April baptised 6 October, 1799
Jane, b 27 March, baptised 15 April 1802

Judith

I cannot find any record of Daniel TINDALL marrying Amelia DOYLE.     I can see around 30 submitted trees that claim that Daniel's wife was Amelia Jane Doyle. 

Has any of those researching Jane, wife of Daniel Tindall Senior, actually checked for the details of Charles PALMER's first wife, whose first wife is actually recorded on several NSW records as Amelia?  I suspect that the confusion has occurred when someone has assumed Charles PALMER had only ONE wife, and they have combined the given names Amelia (his first wife) and Jane (his second wife)...  Perhaps Charles first wife was Amelia DOYLE  :)

 In around 1810ish Governor Macquarie named FIVE towns : Castlereagh, Pitt Town, Richmond, Wilberforce and Windsor. Daniel TINDALL died in Castlereagh St, Sydney Town, this is not anywhere near Castlereagh, which is out near Richmond where Charles Palmer's rural property was located. Charles Palmer and Daniel TINDALL both had Sydney Town addresses in Castlereagh St, Sydney (now one of the main streets in Sydney CBD).  :)

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jamjar on Monday 24 September 18 00:48 BST (UK)
I agree, I see no evidence that Danial Snr married an Amelia Jane.

There are no Amelia children within the family line, but there are Jane’s.

Jamjar
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Monday 24 September 18 01:08 BST (UK)
And, one of my elderly rellies (he a retired NSW BDM senior officer) has phoned me to say that it is entirely possible that there's two aspects we have not yet given careful consideration to.

a)  Doyle may well be a transcription error that frequents some transcriptions, particularly if the transcriber is working on baptisms of babies as these do NOT give surnames to be babies being baptised, so for example if the baptism  reads:


Mary Ann, dau'of

then there's plenty of opportunity for 177Os handwriting to transcribe that as Mary Ann DOYLE..

b) When the Wesleyans and similar protesting movements were breaking away from Church of England practices there's many a lass who chose a new Christian name, which the Wesleyans recognised, but the Anglicans did not ... so Mary Ann dau of ... SHARPE (a likely candidate for THE FIRST wife of Charles PALMER) may have been known in the Wesleyans in the Castlereagh district of NSW in the 1810s and 1820s as Athelia or Amelia or variations... and at least one daughter of that couple was given similar name...  Please do read Matilda PALMER's baptism record that I transcribed and repost here:

...
From the 1820 Richmond NSW population book, and the image that the NSW State Archives has allowed Ancestry to upload:
Chas PALMER has at his location :
Mary Ann PALMER, c.f. (came free)
Sabina PALMER (c.f.)
Athelia PALMER b.c. (born in the colony)

1825 Muster at C. PALMER,  at Richmond, Sydney
Mrs A PALMER, c.f.  (dead) wife of C Palmer
Sabina PALMER, 25, b.c.  and the others as listed below noted are bracketed together as children  of C Palmer
Althelia PALMER, 23, b.c.
Almeriah PALMER, 19 b.c.
Matilda PALMER, 9, b.c.
Euphemia PALMER, 13, b.c.

From the baptismal record for Matilda PALMER, 
Matilda, daughter of Charles and Athelia PALMER, he a farmer, was born 2 March 1816 and baptised 30 October 1827, by Rev G Erskine at Windsor, Wesley rites.  The Rev Erskine then transmitted the information to Rev John Cross who registered the baptism in the register of St Matthews C of E, Windsor.

JM  (edit to give prominence to Mary Ann dau'of )  :)
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Monday 24 September 18 01:38 BST (UK)
 :)

Some family history buffs who may be researching Jane, the wife of Daniel, senior:

http://www.thetreeofus.net/7/249705.htm 

https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/tindall/daniel/106873

http://www.monaropioneers.com/Newsletter/MP%20NEWSLETTER-2016-4.html

JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Monday 24 September 18 04:39 BST (UK)
and another family tree researcher here:

https://gw.geneanet.org/gbarnier2?lang=en&n=palmer&oc=0&p=ephraim

This researcher has Charles PALMER's first wife as Mary Ann Athelia SHARPE with dates (down to the day of the week) and locations ....

Charles PALMER, born in 1770 - Westminster, London England, Deceased 14 April 1846 (Tuesday) - Richmond, New Douth Wales, Australia age at death: 76 years old
Married about 1798, England, to
Mary Ann Athelia SHARPE, born 12 February 1775 (Sunday) - Holborn, London, England, Deceased 6 October 1824 (Wednesday) - Hawkesbury, New South Wales, Australia age at death: 49 years old


Mary A PALMER burial noted at that tree as St Peters, Richmond NSW ...  I wonder if there's further details on the parish register ...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/34785309?q&versionId=43112404

Back to Jane, wife of Daniel, Senior ... their son James who arrived per Kangaroo, did he marry  Almeria, one of the daughters of Charles PALMER in 1836... ie James marry his step-sister ...

Charles Thomas, son of James and Almeria TINDALL, a settler at Nepean, was baptised 19 January 1837 at St Peters C of E, Richmond.     


JM
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: Jan Prit on Wednesday 26 September 18 07:27 BST (UK)
Hello all and thanks for helping me with this family. :-[ Whilst I was searching for Daniel Tindall, his first marriage to Mary Wells 13/10/1763 both signed. The next marriage to Jane Sawyer 2/9/1779 both signed Daniel is a widower. The next marriage to Jane Davis 28/11/1792 both signed no mention of Daniel being a widower again at St. John Croydon this entry is not on the CD for Surrey marriages the other's are, even though they signed a bit different ??? Their must be another Daniel Tindall which is included somehow. Need another look. :-\ :-\

Regards,
Janet :-[
Title: Re: Jane Tindall
Post by: majm on Wednesday 26 September 18 07:38 BST (UK)
agh .... well I can see that the Daniel died in Sydney in January 1827 ... has been found to have died at age 69 ... and the original source for that seems to default back to the Australian Joint Copying Project. Microfilm Roll 87, Class and Piece Number HO11/1, Page Number 394

https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/tyndall/daniel/106873

If that's accurate, he was born 1758ish, so not possible to be married in 1763.  (Marriage Act 1753 likely to apply https://www.perfar.eu/policies/marriage-act-1753  ) So that leaves the other two as possibles  :) 

JM