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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Gwaelodian on Thursday 07 June 18 18:27 BST (UK)
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Hello. Roots chat researchers have helped me often in the past. For those that helped me trace the soldier who embroidered a sampler, Van Someran, they may like to know I was not successful in locating this family. However, thanks to your help, the sampler is now safe in a small museum.
Today, I am asking help to locate a person I met some years ago. He owned three shops in the Welsh Valleys but lived in London. When I met him, he was approaching ninety and still working. As he got older, he told me much of his history. I have tried to find him via census research but had not luck. I am not good at it!
When I met him, he was called Ernest Gershenson. I learned as I got to know him better his birth name was Nachmen Mendle, son of Chika Writson and Benchein Gerschenzen. They came from Russian Poland to Tredegar in Wales at the turn of the century. He remembered the Tredegar riots against the Jewish families.
When he died in the 1990s (I think), he was living in Sutton, Surrey. I have so many letters from him, so many of his tales, that I would love to find him in a census. He never told me his date of birth, but he seems to have been a child when the Tredegar riots happened in 1911. Anyone there who feels like helping me on this search? Many thanks.
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Hi,
A death in Sutton in 1998, aged 95.
in 1939 he was married to Fay, she was a midwife.
Maggsie
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Wow. That was quick. Thank you. I know that is correct re name of wife, who predeceased him. I am curious as to when he changed his name from his Jewish birth name. Again, thank you. :D
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I would lay money on the family being that of Barnet and Katie Gershenson with children Fanny and Manuel living in Tredegar.
The surname Gershenzen is a phonetic rendering of the patronymic name Gershonson = son of Gershon.
Benchien = Bentzion, often anglicised to Barnet or Bernhard
Mendle, more commonly written Mendel, was a nickname for the Hebrew name Menachem. A derivative nickname was Manel/Manele, which in turn was further corrupted to Manuel. One ends up with the situation that men with the Hebrew name Menachem become known as Emanuel in everyday life.
There were three Gershonson births in Bedwellty between 1911 and 1917. Mother's surname 2 x Wrightson, 1 x Rightzen
Emmanuel E. Gershonson married Phoebe Rosenberg in 1924 in Bedwellty.
Justin
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That is most interesting! Thanks. I think he had a sister Faggie? ;D
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Reading your research again, in line with that from Maggsie, I am wondering if he has had two marriages. His wife of later years was Fay, but all you have found is in line with what I know of the family when in Tredegar. His sister Faggie. Oils tie in with the name Faggie.
Do you know why he would have changed name to Ernest? Was it to fit in with the new country or simply to be less obviously Jewish in days when there was so much aggression directed at Jewish families?
Than you. A lot to think about.
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Some pretty grim typos in the above.,iPod itis! Faggie is in line with the name Fanny. X
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The English secular name Fanny was commonly adopted by Jewish women/girls with the Yiddish name Feiga/Feyge, which would have been name used within the family and Jewish community.
Phoebe Pamela Gershenson, b. 7 Mar 1901, died in Sutton on 14 Mar 1992.
In 1970, for example, she was living at 6 Cyrillian House according to the Electoral Roll.
Strangely, Ernest was not registered, but the telephone book lists him at the same address.
In 1939, Ernest was recorded with an unmarried midwife named Fay (aka Fania) Gershenson. That was his sister.
As to why he assumed the name Ernest, I imagine it was a desire to be less conspicuously foreign, specifically Jewish. Did he have an accent (neither Welsh nor English) at all, when you met him?
What baffles me, however, is that he did not change his surname which strikes me as fairly obviously Jewish, but then maybe that's just because I have been doing Jewish genealogy for so long.
Justin
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Justin
Your research is golden! I remember he had a midwife sister. I understood from what he wrote to me he had little to do with his wife or son. I could never establish if they were living together, or if indeed she had predeceased him. He has given me graphic details on his experience of the 1911 riots...or pogrons ...against the Jewish families in Tredegar. We never managed to locate his birth village of Kibblitch, which he felt was some thirty miles from Odessa. I wonder if, maybe, the name was changed in the occupation. Apart from the grim side of his experience, there were striking and happy stories, one being how, after they moved to Cardiff, his mother, a chemist in her homeland, made Turkish delight in her copper, which they sold door to door. Ultimately, a big company bought the recipe which had been created by his grandmother, and made it for the larger market! Amazing, stoical, determined lovely people.
Thankyou for your insight.,much valued. I’m beginning to ponder writing up his story. I have so many notes and letters, re-found recently when clearing my bookshelves and files. Thankyou again. Next hunt is where they lived in Cardiff.
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Good morning,
I think you are going to find it hard to resist doing the write-up. :)
Can you view this webpage? https://www.jewishgen.org/Ukraine/GEO_town.asp?id=251 (https://www.jewishgen.org/Ukraine/GEO_town.asp?id=251)
You can find it on google maps as Kiblych. It had a Jewish population of 1,067 in 1900.
It's not as close to Odessa as Ernest thought, but it is the only match in the database of pre-war Jewish communities.
His sister Fania/Fay became a British naturalised citizen in 1940. Her place of birth would have been stated in her application, which is held at the National Archives in Kew.
I think there may have been a bit of embellishment going on here with the bit about the chemist. There is little to no chance that a Jewish girl born in Imperial Russia in the early 1880s received anything more than rudimentary education. Hers would have been the life portrayed in Fiddler on the Roof.
Parts of Lee Batterman's Kiblych, a novel of historical fiction set 1883(!!) can be read on google books. I quote from one page, "She had learned early how to sign her name in Russian, but that was all. She didn't go to the public school; she learned Yiddish and Hebrew from a teacher who came to her house. Most girls only learned to read and write Yiddish ..."
Ernest's parents, Barnet (b. 6 Aug 1880), travelling drapery salesman, and Clara (b. 18 Mar 1883) "unpaid domestic duties" were living at 66 Newport Road in Risca near Newport in 1939.
Do you know at what stage the family moved to Cardiff?
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I would love to speak with you but not sure if it’s allowed in the roitschat rules.
Ernest told me his mother was given the chemist shop by her father as a wedding dowry. I u derstood they were wealthy.,
Thankyou for all your searching. I will look for that book Immediately I get to the computer.
I am not Jewish myself, but have Jewish cousins from the marriage of a family member. I have also met and found great affinity with several Jewish families, who are close friends. Some are Notable people, all are or have been wonderful, warm friends. Poetry, music, family, love....all there in abundance. I think you are right. It will be hard to resist retelling Ernest’s story. Much to share, but too much for online.
Many thanks. much to read and relish.
Xxx :)
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I just came across this photograph on line of a Tredegar Jewish shopkeeper, name of Barnet. This made me wonder if it relates to Ernest. He spoke of the shop selling boots. When they arrived in Tredegar, they went to someone they already knew. Maybe a relative? What do you think? Norma
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In 1878 there was a Harris Barnet at Tredegar with a shop that sold boots. If you scroll down on the page with the picture of A Barnett you found you can see a shop with a sign Harriss on it, boarded up, clearly a jewish owned shop. Maybe realatives maybe just others helping others?
Do you have this fre newspaper link to search?
http://newspapers.library.wales/
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Thank you. I will search that link again.
I know his father bought a shop but I can't establish whether it was in Tredegar. I think it was, but looking back at his messages, he also speaks of a shop that could have been in Cardiff. His words ran something like this?
'After the riots, my father's business was failing. No one had the money to pay rent or meet what they owed him. He bought a shop and shortly after went to live in Cardiff while continuing to work in Tredegar.'
Maybe that fixes the time he moved to Cardiff, albeit approximately.
Thank you.:)
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I can see this too
"Jewish Chronicle, 30 November 1900, page 1
Engagement. Nellie, eldest daughter of Mr & Mrs I. Fine of Aberdare to Isaac, eldest son of Mrs A. Barnet and late Harris Barnett, of Abercynon, Glamorgan"
Is this the same family?
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I’m not sure. When I knew Ernest, one of his shops was in Abercynon. There were four children, I think, but he only mentions in detail his sister Faggie who cane with the family from Kibblitch. Other children were born in Tregegar, as far as I recall. I’ll go through the pile of letters again to see if any of the British born children are named. Thankyou for this. In some ways, it shows me how much I don’t know about this lonely man who wrote and spoke so often. His memory was failing by the end, though he was still bright as a button to speak with.
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PS. Re the marriage in the JC...given Ernest was the eldest son (Fagie, the sister, was first born) it looks less likely. I’ll still check for children’s names.x
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Hello Norma,
The British born siblings were:
Stanley Samuel G., b. Q3 1911
Harry G., b. Q1 1914
Alec G., b. Q2 1917
Sonia G. , b. Q1 1921
It certainly would have been common for immigrants to join family members who were already established in the new country.
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Thankyou for that. Ernest never mentioned his younger siblings other than to say as the new babies came he got more and more lonely and often played on his own. I wonder why he was so alone.
It interests me, too, that he came back to Wales to open his shops. At one point, he worked as a ship’s chandlers in Cardiff, then he emigrated to Canada. I suppose memory is always hard to fix chronologically. He may have got the order of events out of line.
The internet has helped me a lot, but you researchers on Rootschat are superb and generous with your time and interest. I’ve started scanning into my computer all the typed notes I made from my old typewriter thirty years ago. It’s very time consuming but I hope I can establish a more accurate time scale. Thanks for your help. It seems important to add his life to the history of Jewish immigrant life in Wales.
:)
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I have read through many notes I took thirty years ago, and have this to add to the thread: I found this note: Why isn’t Kiblitch there? Why is Crosinsylka only a town of my memory?
Does that suggest his Kiblitch is an area? I am confused!
Other notes: He speaks of Chaider /the Synagogue in Tredegar. going to the County School and the Cinema in Commercial street. The pawn shop that was ravaged in the 1911 riots was next door to the cinema. He says his mother and sister were hiding in a neighbour's house for safety.
In 1914, they were living in Cardiff. Friends from London were taking shelter there.
He says his mother and sister both went to university. Does he mean in Cardiff, given what Justin wrote about life in Russian Poland. His sister Fagie went on to London, to Queen Charlotte's hospital, as a mid wife.
In 1916, he went to seek work in Canada. After a year there, he was back in Cardiff. He mentions his parents living in Tudor Street. He took a job with Percy Capel, a ships chandler. In 1929, he took an apprenticeship but doesn't clarify in what, but he seems to have moved into the catering industry. In 1931, he writes of being general manager to a conglomerate in Manchester, The Piccadilly. He appears to have opened a wine shop in Cardiff, Jackmore's Wine Suppliers. There are more sorties into catering and he ends up catering for Denham Film Studios. When the studios folded, he says he bought out the costume department. This led him into fashion and ultimately to his three shops in the Welsh Valleys.
Thank you to everyone who helped me sort out his early days, with names and dates. Now, I just might write up his life story from a two inch pile of notes and letters!
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Justin
You wrote that the mother would have been unlikely to have had an education. Gershie wrote:'On her wedding day, my grandfather Writson had presented to my mother the deeds of a Chemist's shop. She had graduated from University as a chemist and immediately, as soon as the ceremonies were over, she, Chika Writson, married my father, Benchein Gerschenzatson, and they settled together in the house behind the shop in Kibblitz. My grandparents had had four daughters, all of whom had gone to University, graduated well. One was a doctor, another had studied music, the third had qualified in husbandry, and as I have already written, my mother was a chemist. These women, my aunts, women we left behind us, are all dead now. '
His father seemed to have been an estates manager for aristocracy. He left England when he thought he was about to be conscripted. The wife and two children followed when he was established in Tredegar. He has given many details of the village, which I have compared to the sketch map in the book you recommended. Some similarities but not exactly. I notice in the sketch a book shop is detailed. Interesting!
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Hello Norma,
I am increasingly sceptical about the Wrightson (probably Reytsen in reality) girls going to university. From the little research I have done, it is clear that there were numerous obstacles for women in general, notwithstanding the outright ban imposed by the Russia government at one stage. Women generally had to go abroad, particularly to Switzerland and Austria, to gain a university education, which came at a price. Those women fortunate to study came from reasonably affluent families, lived in larger metropolitan cities (particularly St. Petersburg) and generally commenced their studies somewhat later than men, because it took time to overcome the obstacles. It's an interesting field of research.
British universities of that era weren't exactly liberal in their attitude to admitting women either.
But then again, difficult does not mean impossible.
However, Emanuel's mother was married at scarcely 18 (not unusual in the Jewish communities of 19th century Russia) and a mother shortly afterwards; mother of two by the time she was 20-ish, with another two being born and dying before the 1911 census.
His memories of his own life will make fascinating reading by the sounds of it. Quite a character!
Kiblych/Kiblich is definitely a village, and as far as I can determine, there was only one. I can't identify Crosinsylka. Is that the only spelling he used?
The cheder was the Jewish school that he would have attended in addition to public school for his religious education.
I stumbled across this article https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-Features/A-cantor-in-the-wind (https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-Features/A-cantor-in-the-wind) about Tredegar's rabbi from 1931/2 onwards. Seemingly, his in-laws (Isaac Gaba and Malka Yosum) also came from Kiblich.
This is all too interesting!!
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I note you call him Emanuel. He called himself Ernest. I have other personal details that I don't feel able to write on line, so how can I tell you less openly? I am increasingly interested in this story. As I upload more and more I wrote down from telephone calls, conversations and letters, I see much I had forgotten.
The novel you suggested makes interesting reading, too. I'm about half way through. Some ties directly with his descriptions, particularly the markets.
He spoke of sledge journeys to his Grandparents. As for Crosinsylka, I have copied it from his handwriting as best I can. I also couldn't find it... but then, I also couldn't find Kibblitch.
Thanks.
Norma
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You can send me a private message. Click on the icon below the census copyright statement on the left hand side of your last post.
Can you perhaps scan and post a section of letter containing Crosinsylka? You never know, I might read it as something else. I need to locate some historical maps.
How were you able to get hold of the novel so quickly? Does the author say much about his sources?
Justin
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You can buy it on line from Google books. Under four pounds. Written by an American woman, based on tales her grandfather told her. A gossipy love story, but she includes a sketch map of the village, which must have some degree of accuracy. Will pm you after we’ve cooked and eaten.
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Justin
I tried to pm you but got the message your name was not registered ( or something like that).Anyway, it didn't send. Perhaps you can advise what should have gone in the message slot other than JustinL
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I found a timeline for women's education in general which also mentions university admittance in several countries during the 19th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women%27s_education#19th_century
My maternal grandmother's family member arrived in England in 1861 and changed their German surname to a British equivalent when the riots you referred to broke out in England due to a slump in jobs. At the time the family had two shops which had to close.
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Thankyou. An interesting family history for you. I will read the time line you have linked when I get to my computer. You are all helping me understand Ernest’s story.
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Does the sketch map of Kiblich look anything this?
Here is the link to the full sheet.
http://easteurotopo.org/images/new%20rmt-126_2014/XXVI-8_s126_Uman_LC_1902.jpg (http://easteurotopo.org/images/new%20rmt-126_2014/XXVI-8_s126_Uman_LC_1902.jpg)
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I’m going to make a screen shot of the sketch and send to you. I will also print out with your map to look more closely. Ernest mentioned a prison, which has just cropped up in the narrative of the book....seems it was ells attached to what the authors text gives as a police station. More later!
Thanks.
Norma
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Umm. Not possible to compare the sketch with the actual map you have sent. I attach it below for you to look at and ponder. Poor quality resolution in the original. Screen shot, worse.
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Very interesting. I note that in 1869 in Russia University Courses for women were opened, which opens the profession of teacher, law assistant and similar lower academic professions for women (in 1876, the courses are no longer allowed to give exams, and in 1883, all outside of the capital is closed).
That could fit in with the age of Ernest's mother. Would Russia include Russian Poland in this reference?
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Two things leap out at me from Ernest's map; the roads to Uman and to Teplyk.
The attached bilingual map from 1820 shows Kiblych's (Kublicz is the Polish spelling) location relative to Uman and Teplik.
Now there is no doubt that Kiblych in the western Ukraine was Ernest's home.
Russian Poland was part of the Russian Empire. Poland of the late 18th century had been partitioned three time between Russia, Prussia and Austria. Russian Poland, aka Congress Poland, was created after the Congress of Vienna at the end of the Napoleonic wars.
Ernest's mother was born in about 1883. The list also states that in 1905 universities in Russia were open to women.
Justin
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Thankyou! The sketch came from the novel you suggested. But, yes. I am also convinced. I can see much that relates to what he told me, but knew that many villages might have had similar set ups. You have now placed his life firmly on the map! It’s exciting, isn’t it! By now, I am attempting to find a way to write his story via his friendship with me. Your involvement has inspired me to dedicate myself to this. I couldn’t have worked out the map as you have done and am extremely grateful. I look for your messages now much as I waited for letters from Ernest some thirty years ago! Norma :)
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Justin, I understand you are directing me to archived maps. How do I place it now? Is there a Kibblitch now? If you have already told me, forgive this message! Nx
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Justin,
Re reading the thread, I realised I hadn’t read the link re the Tredegar Rabbi, with Kibblitch links. How fascinating is that! It seems to me they must have known each other given the intensity of a small community.
The present Cardiff Rabbi, Colin and his wife Loli, used to come to our house parties, a friend of a friend. I think I will contact him by phone to see what records of Ernest’s time exist in Cardiff.
I love this story! As you wrote earlier, all too interesting. Did you get the pm by the way?
Norma
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Norma,
The birth of Ernest's son in 1931 was in South Manchester, so he may not have been around to meet the new rabbi. However, Ernest's parents may well have known him.
A picture emerges of multiple connections to Kiblitch (see modern Kiblych here https://www.google.ae/maps/place/Kiblych,+Vinnyts'ka+oblast,+Ukraine,+23755/@48.7155373,29.5886484,12z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x40cd8198bf67ded7:0xbabd46f88dc194c!8m2!3d48.7213666!4d29.5694955 (https://www.google.ae/maps/place/Kiblych,+Vinnyts'ka+oblast,+Ukraine,+23755/@48.7155373,29.5886484,12z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x40cd8198bf67ded7:0xbabd46f88dc194c!8m2!3d48.7213666!4d29.5694955)). I wonder whether Kiblitchers were the founders of the Tredegar community.
I found the attached article about the other Kiblitchers - Isaac and Malka Gaba; interesting reading.
Is there a possibility that the place you noted as Crosinsylka should read Crosnipylka, i.e. Krasnopilka? It's only 8.5 miles NE of Kiblych.
You need to scour your notes for mentions of any other place names.
I did see your PM. The secret is safe with me.
Justin
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I love this thought re the links to Kibblitch. Is the one you have attached now the same as the one from the Jewish Chronicle? I have sent a message to the person who may have written that via Linked IN. I will read the article below this evening. I've been long at the computer by now and am getting square eyed. Thank you. Thank you.
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Justin
My notes are more or less that... my notes. Much may be lost over the thirty years I have saved them randomly. In terms Ernest's actual letters, the pattern was more or less that I would type up what he sent me or said to me, so that it could be sent back to him. Thus, most letters were typed and returned for his entertainment. It kept him going while he was failing.
The town you suggest is so like the note I have in terms of spelling, and the fact that it is near is likely to make it probable.
School was in the main street.
Names of his aunts in Kiblitch were, Tanya, Rosinkeler, Bettina and Chika was his mother. He wrote that they lived in a large house twenty miles from Kiblitch. The house was built near a river. This was his grandmother's house, of which he had fond and detailed memories.He wrote, 'Can you see what happiness I lived in!' Grandfather was a big, tall, bearded man. His grandmother was tiny.
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PS. You latest find, the story of Malka, shows a picture of Malka and Isaac in Tredegar in 1911, the year of the anti Jewish riots when Ernest and his family were there! They must have known each other, given Malka and Isaac’s parental links to Kibblitch.
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The National Archives has found a possible match for the certificate re the Naturalisation of Fagie/Fania Ernest's sister. Document reference is HO 334/157/15765. The date of birth is not given as part of the description but the residence of Fania Gershenson is given as Russia. Living in Wales, I can't get into Kew to see if there is more on the actual certificate.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11804505
My reference number is :HO 334/157/15765 if anyone wants to look further. :)
TNA1530392217M92 .
I've started to write the story around the correspondence I had with Ernest. (I called him Gershie).
If I manage to complete it, I would like to add your name to the credits. Is that allowed?
Norma
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Hi Norma,
I have been away on holiday.
The naturalisation cert would confirm her place of birth. If you try posting a look-up request to the London board, some kind RCer may find the time to photograph the document.
I would be flattered to be mentioned in the credits.
Justin
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I will try to do that re the London Board.
I’ve done a first draft of an approach to Gershie’s story. I am attempting to creat a dialogue of our interaction up to his death. He asked a lot of my own life. We shared many experiences, albeit divided by years. I was thirtyish when we met. He was already ninety and needing to tell his story. He grew up in Russian Poland and then Wales, I lived in a Norfolk village, born just after Poland was invaded and WW2 started. We came to Wales much later. The interaction with Gershie was a poignant time. He said it gave him the will to face his age induced isolation, a reason to go on. When I am at a point where the story seems ready to share, I will let you know. I wish I had been able to tell him Kiblitch still stands. I know now, but only thanks to you. Thank you. And thanks to other researchers who posted help.
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My husband is the nephew of Ernest Gershenson. My husband's father was Stanley Samuel Gershenson. Your findings are fascinating and is something I'd wish to pass on to our children.
Thanks Sue
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How wonderful that a relative has been able to find this amazing story
Gwealodian ..is there a book yet ? I'd love to read it .
Justin's input was invaluable .I've just looked at the map and now understand why some people have put Poland for towns that have been once Russia or Ukraine and how close those towns are to the Latvian towns of my Jewish ancestor
I always wondered why he ended up in WALES and suspect family connections too.
Surgersh have any of your family done DNA tests .?
My mother's second cousin shared a photo of their mutual great grandfather b 1850 ...and some of the trees on Ancestry have wonderful photos of the elders .
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Hi, for whoever asked, I did write and publish the story of Ernest Gershenson. The book, Jew Boy, is available on Amazon. I originally made the story as I interacted with Ernest through some difficult years. He wanted me to publish his story, but I waited ten years to do so. I hope you enjoy it. He had an amazing life with historically valuable experiences. Roots chat researchers helped me a lot to get his memories validated. Such a wonderful friend. So many memories. Thanks to you all at Roots Chat. As ever! :)
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PS. I forgot to include my name to help you search the book. Norma Procter. Thanks :)
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The book arrived from Amazon very quickly and I'm looking forward to reading it .thanks .
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Thankyou. I hope you enjoy it. I will never forget the experience of interacting with this lovely complex man.