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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: chinakay on Sunday 10 June 18 06:05 BST (UK)
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Hi gang, long time no post :)
A bit of excitement in my corner. Had a brilliant trip to England and Scotland, and met a couple of distant cousins (Rootschat's sallytay, and a previously unknown cousin from NZ who popped up just a couple of weeks before our trip :) )
Anyway, the story. My g-g-great grandfather owned a pub in Mirfield, WRY. Apparently he purchased it from his brother's estate, when the brother died in 1814. His name was Thomas Jubb, and his brother who died was William Jubb. The pub was called The Flower Pot, and it's still there.
So, for the first time ever, I was able to visit Mirfield. And the Flower Pot. The outside was okay, but the inside was completely redone in 2012. Alas, not an original brick on the inside.
So, I had a look at the outside. Kind of ordinary, but there was a block of cottages attached. Lovely old weathered texture of the bricks. I took a photo of a bit of wall..........and then looked higher up. Here's what I saw.
I was quite literally jumping up and down when I called OH to come and look :)
So. All my research, totally validated and carved in stone :) But it was very high up the wall and this is the best photo I could get.
And I can't read the second line. Can anyone sharpen it up so we can see what it says?
I am still glowing over my trip to England, where my heart lies. It had been too long.
Cheers,
China
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Does it say ***** tavener??
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Could it be Our/Your Savior?
Carol
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This is a difficult one. First glance looked like ...... Lawyer.
Your saviour as Carol said looks possible, but why would that be ?
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Second word looks like Lawyer.
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Malky.
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Great find China...how thrilled you must be :D I had a go.
Carol
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Could read:
Li'cd Vetuler
Vetuler is an alternative to victualler
Giving licensed victualler
Tony
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I have found The Flower Pot on street view and can see the row of cottages just around the corner. I have tried to zoom in to see if I can spot the words carved into the brick, but I can't see it. You may be able to spot it as you know where it is ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m6l/
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Hiya guys, you've been busy :)
Yes Carol, I was utterly thrilled. A name carved in stone, and not in a graveyard...doesn't happen very often! Thanks for sharpening the image, but I still can't see what it says.
A lawyer, he was not. Savior would be spelled wrong, it's always Saviour. And I'm pretty sure the second to last letter is an e. Vituler, just can't see it. Although he was one, of course, and his license cost ten pounds. A huge amount.
Jool, been there on Streetview before I got to Mirfield. But the stone is at the back. It's so high up the wall I couldn't get a good pic, it's about 12 feet up. I had a good look around before I got there, also gone over the bridge virtually. But in a real car it's horrifying, cars parked on both sides of the bridge and barely enough room down the middle...I guess if you live there you get used to it but I had my eyes shut ;D
Thanks for trying, everybody.
Cheers,
China
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Hi China..as it was on the wall of the adjoining cottages I wonder if he was in any involved in the building or up keep of the cottages...just a thought...you may want to make contact here for help:
http://www.hdfhs.org.uk/the-society/
Carol
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The lower two words aren't in the same script as the first line - I wonder whether they were added later. Even though carved, they are almost in the Italian Hand.
The first word may be 'Now' with only the diagonal and final flourish of an elaborate 'N' now showing (or possibly 'New' as in New Owner). If it was added after 1814, when he died, it may recognise that fact, but the second word appears to start with an 'S' and end 'er' which defeats me.
Richard
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From just a cursory examination, this looks like it used to either be a much longer piece or part 2 of a two piece set. Another name and inscription was to the left of the large flower like engraving. Was there another piece in the same general area? The remodeling may have destroyed it, but you may wish to check your photos as it just may have been moved.
Also the first word is probably "Fou" in written in an Edwardian style script. By itself thats Scottish-Gaelic for full, drunk or crazy. So, if it is, this could be a declaritive statement such as "Full owner" or "Full Partner", or a funny statement such as "Drunk Bartender" or some such sillyness.
just my 2 cents
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Hmmm, interesting. Carol, I'm thinking he built the cottages. They were occupied by family members by 1838 when the place was put up for sale or lease by a third brother. I found a newspaper advert :)
I noticed the script too, Richard. Nothing to compare it to on the rest of the stone.
Dude, that's fascinating about the word fou, which is also French for crazy :) But not sure, considering the later Victorian attitude toward frivolity in photographs, that it would be a funny statement.
I am just going to have to go back to Mirfield. Didn't investigate the church either, where every one of those Jubbs were christened, married and buried. Now I'm kicking myself. Yep, gotta go back :D
Cheers,
China
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I am just going to have to go back to Mirfield. Didn't investigate the church either, where every one of those Jubbs were christened, married and buried. Now I'm kicking myself. Yep, gotta go back :D
Cheers,
China
Pay a young man to climb a ladder with his iphone ;D
Sue
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My effort at trying to read the sign: I think it might be Pub Tavener
Sometimes changing the colour of the image can help.
I am so envious of you China, this is my dream.
Cheers,
Di
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Oh, I just had a brain wave, and I think it reads Your Tavener
Di
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The more I look, the more I see Louvier? I wonder if there is a chatter who lives in the area China, they may come to the rescue :D
Carol
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The second letter of the 1st. word looks like "d" comparing it to legal documents I've seen.
Doesn't help does it.
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I've seen that old d too, but I think it disappeared way before this. I thought the first letter was a fancy Y, with that long curly bit being part of the branch of it.
But that doesn't help either. I guess I'm just going to have to go back there, with a ladder :D
Thanks Jim,
China
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I'd guess the whole inscription was done at the same time, rather than that the lower line was added later, and think the initial letter of the first word can only be a capital 'N'.
So probably 'New'; the second word seems to begin with a capital 'S' or 'T' or 'F'. The last two letters are 'e r' but the others are doubtful. As this line is under W. Jubb's name it could be his address - the name of the house or village where he lived. I've peered at local maps and can't see any likely names, but maybe some old map of the early 19th century might reveal some long-vanished name.
Or could it be a motto starting with 'Nem'?
Whatever, I do hope somebody can solve this soon!
Harry.
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I am going back to what I thought before, "& Son Lawier."
Malky
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Assembling facts:
Ggggf owned a pub in Mirfield. William Jubb died in 1814.
Brother, Thomas Judd, purchased pub from brother's estate.
Pub called The Flower Pot.
Row of cottages attached to pub building.
Carved, high up on wall was
Symbol W Jubb AD(?) 1812
Unknown writing under name
Stone was at the "back"
Note: What was 1812 referencing - when the structure was built?
Have you tried looking at other nearby "old" buildings to see if there was a "theme" to what was typically inscribed?
Using the map link that Jool provided, around the corner, on Calder Rd, is a building with a white door and above the door is an inscribed stone. However, I can't begin to read the writing on this stone. :-\ I've not yet found another old building with an inscription but I haven't given up looking.
I wonder why the writing would be on the back of the building? Did the river always follow the current "path" or could there have been roads where the river now flows? Why would the name have been on the back of the building? Could the present owners take a photograph for you or tell you what it says? Note: One of my ancestors lived and worked in a pub in Essex in the mid-1800s. I was thrilled to find the pub on the internet and was awe-struck to see the interior. I wrote to the pub, asking a couple of questions and never received a reply. :'( However, it wouldn't hurt for you to try writing as well?
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From the earliest Ordnance 6" to the mile map, surveyed in 1850, the row of cottages next to the 'Flower Pot' in Granny Lane hadn't yet been built. There would have been ample space for Calder Road to have passed the pub on its east side, so maybe there had been some changes in the road layout before then. This could account for the stone now being on the back of the pub.
The cottages north of here, on Calder Road, were also built later, and the street view images show the stone above the white door mentioned by Lisa. The inscription reads: "Philip Royd 1873 Terrace".
Harry.
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Lawyer also meant an agent, does that fit in at all China?
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Was there another W. Judd in the family? Could William's father also have been a William? Or, keeping in mind that the cottages had not been built by 1850, could William have named a son William? Yet another question, did Thomas have a son named William?
Did the wording under the name reference a different William? :-\
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Looking at the stone, is it just the lighting that makes it look rough on the left side and a bit smoother on the right and under the name? This is a bit of a stretch, but is there a chance that the stone could have been altered either because a mistake was made or to change some of the original carving?
On a headstone that a very kind RootsChatter found for me, the name Mary was altered to May (or the other way around, I don't remember). This stone reminds me of that smooth look where the change was made for Mary's name.
I know I'm (sadly) a perfectionist, but does it bother anyone else that nothing is centered? Or, perhaps it is just my eyes. ;)
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Lisa, yes it bothers me too that nothing is centered ;D.
I think, as DrDude45 mentioned in an earlier post, it may be the remains of a longer stone, originally having the "flower" design in the centre with another name to the left, and the "curly" end design matching at the other end.
I agree that writing to the present owners would be worth a shot, or maybe email the pub to ask if they would be kind enough to take a look for you. Or, post on the relevant board here with a link to this thread, someone on Rootschat may live nearby and be willing to look for you.
I keep coming back to this thread and staring at it, but nothing is getting any clearer ;D
Or you could post here to see if someone could help.
https://www.facebook.com/MirfieldHistoryArchive/
Or here
http://www.mirfield-2ndlook.info/Seeking_Information_/seeking_information_.html
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The second letter of the 1st. word looks like "d" comparing it to legal documents I've seen.
Doesn't help does it.
Looking at jim1's touched up photo, is there any chance that the first two characters could be 18? The first character looks like someone was trying to copy the style of the 1 in 1812. It could be my mind playing tricks but looking at the original photograph, the character after the first squiggly mark almost looks like an 8.
I cannot see the following in the second word (if in fact there are two words) but is there a chance that it could be Janvier? Thinking along the line of why would something be carved in French, is there a chance that the word is in Latin, or another language?
Perhaps I should just keep my comments to myself as they are a bit strange. ;D
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Using French seems unlikely in 1812 - during the Napoleonic War!
Wondered about Latin - as in a motto - Nem = no-one. Or German, Nein = no, or Sein = his, but I can't find anything like the second word.
I think it has to be a second word because of the initial capital - S, T, F, I, J - or maybe L.
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Wow, you lot have been beavering away ;D ;D
Well, the Flower Pot was advertised for sale or lease in 1838, along with its cottages which are described as all occupied. So the cottages were there. I'm thinking they must have been built in 1814.
William had two children, Charles and Martha. His father was John, and John was a shoemaker. Here's William's will. Can't find when Charles was born but Martha was born in 1810. On the other hand, his illegitimate son would appear to be from the woman he married.
http://jubb.one-name.net/members_data/0069ab/documents//JUBB%2C%20William%2C%20Hopton%2C%20Mirfield%2C%201814%2C%20will%2C%20transcription.pdf
Now I'm thinking maybe the word says something like Terrace or Cottage or something, but I can't make anything fit.
I'm not sure asking someone in Mirfield to go look would help, because the stone is a good 10 feet up the wall and this is as good a photo as I could get. However, there's a Mirfield Facebook page so I'll try that.
And yeah, it bugs me too. The inscription isn't centered and the doodle on the left isn't symmetric. I think it was added later.
Okay everybody, thank you for the thought you've put into this. Off to try the Mirfield page!
Cheers,
China
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Welcome back, China. This inscription really is the most puzzling piece of writing!
The cottages mentioned in 1838 wouldn't have been the row along Granny Lane, right next to the pub. The Ordnance 6-inch map is quite detailed and if they had been there in 1850 they'd certainly have been shown.
This map shows other small blocks near the pub - just to the north where the present car park is, and I suspect these were the cottages that were up for lease in 1838.
Harry.
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Hmmm, they're not there, are they? So I wonder if the stone is a piece of the older cottages that was incorporated into the present building? No bridge either, so that kept Hopton pretty isolated from Mirfield.
I put the photo on the Mirfield FB page so we'll see if there's any interest there.
Really is a shame about the interior renovation of the pub, would have been nice to at least pretend my great-greats had seen the same walls.
There was this on one of the walls, though :D
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I've only just seen this thread from last year. I grew up in Mirfield and go back there quite often. Where exactly is this stone? I'll go and have a look when I'm there next.
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Hi, Mike! If you have a look at the very first post in the thread it describes where the stone is. On the back of the cottages next to the Flower Pot, way up high on the right. I couldn't get high enough for a good photo. We never did figure out exactly what the stone says and it was driving me batty ;D
Cheers,
China
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Hi, Mike! If you have a look at the very first post in the thread it describes where the stone is. On the back of the cottages next to the Flower Pot, way up high on the right. I couldn't get high enough for a good photo. We never did figure out exactly what the stone says and it was driving me batty ;D
Cheers,
China
Thanks China. So you have to go down between the pub and the row of cottages, and it's up there on the first cottage?
I've spent some happy times in the Flowerpot, but not for many years now.
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It's not on the gable end of the cottages, it's on the back. On the right-hand side about 10 feet up.
I wish I could have seen the interior before they renovated. It's just ordinary now. I asked the barmaid what it used to be like, but she didn't know and didn't care. Not at all interested :-\
Cheers,
China
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https://i2-prod.examinerlive.co.uk/incoming/article8672345.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/Flower-Pot-Mirfield.jpg
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Yes, someone else sent me that, thanks youngtug :) The roof has been fixed and the barnlike outbuildings are gone, but the little stone wall is still there. You can't see the cottages, but judging by the skirt on the woman in front it's a 1940s photo so they'd be there.
Cheers,
China
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Mmm; https://jubb.one-name.net/members_data/0069ab/documents//JUBB%2C%20Abraham%201838%20To%20Be%20Let%20The%20Flower%20Pot%20Inn.pdf
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Yes, I had found that too. Interesting that it's already "old" in 1839! I hadn't noticed the mention of the stable before, though...well of course they'd have a stable :) Daniel Crawshaw, renting the cottages, was a son-in-law or brother-in-law. But I don't know who James Rhodes was.
Gggguncle Abraham is one of five surgeons I have found in my tree. His gggnephew, my grandfather, was the last. By the time he graduated from medical school, surgeons actually knew a bit about medicine :D
Thanks youngtug!