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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Berkshire Lookup Requests => Berkshire => England => Berkshire Completed Look ups => Topic started by: ribbo39 on Monday 11 June 18 01:51 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I have the above named in my tree and am trying to find her birth/bapt details. Using the FreeBMD site I get the following details;
Patience Winch, regist. Mar ¼ 1845 Wallingford Dist.
I enter these into the GRO Registration Services site with */- 2 years and keep getting a "no entry found" responce. I have reported this error to them on two occassions and they reply the data is correct no investigation required.
Is anyone able to try for me, please?
I believe she may be illegitamate but and I'm trying to obtain her mother's maiden name, if its not Winch.
Alan
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Hi Alan :)
There's a Patience AMBREY, same RD/qtr/ref, no mmn. Could be worth a look if indexed under both parents' names?
Carol
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Hi Carol,
Many thanks for your help. Tried your suggestion but obviously illeg. as mmn is Ambrey.
Immediately tried "winch/wynch" - same results as before - no matching result found.
I see your now in Gawler - any rain up there yet?
Alan
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No rain yet but there's some due later. 20 and breezy at the moment, cloud building up.
Going back to Patience, there are only two Patiences listed in Wallingford RD in Q1 of 1845 - AMBREY and WINCH - and they have the same ref. Coincidence? At that time I believe a single mother could name the father at registration, with or without his consent. The birth was then indexed under both surnames.
Added The mother couldn't have a maiden name if she wasn't married - GRO differs from FreeBMD in this respect.
If that's what happened here, then you would get the same certificate regardless of which name you ordered. Is it worth 6 quid to find out? The GRO pdf project might be ending soon :o
Carol
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Thanks Carol,
I don't think I'l be wasting my money on this twig. It was just annoying that no record was found relating to that ref. But what you say could be the answer - father Winch, mother Ambrey.
There's also a Winch Pa*ce same ref. see attached screenshot
Only light rain here (Fairview Park).
Alan
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Could be Patience Tutty, 5, born Wallingford in 1851.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG8P-HT7
Younger siblings Brice and Henry seem to have mmn Winch on new GRO (says Winoh for Henry)
Brice Tutty married Ann Winch, Sep 1846 Wallingford.
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Good work jonw65 ;D
The 1851 census shows them living in Benson (sometimes called Bensington), with Brice senr. and the two boys born there while Ann and Patience were born in Wallingford.
In 1861 Patience TUTTY is a house maid, 15, living with the LIDDIARD family in Wallingford.
On 16 June 1867, Patience WYNCH (22, spinster) married Frederic ELDERFIELD (22, bach, lab) in Benson where they were both living. Witnesses were Brice TUTTY (senr. or junr.?) and Sarah BROWN. Patience's father isn't named; there's just a dash.
So there we have it. Evidently Patience was aware of her illegitimacy, but we don't know whether she knew her father's identity.
We had a brief shower of rain earlier but it's gone now. So has the wind thankfully.
Carol
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Thank you both for your help.
I think you have confirmed?? that Patience was illeg. but her actual birth regis. still evades me.
Brice Tutty was certainly bapt in Benson s/o Wm. & Charlotte.
I've also got her in the 1851 & 61 census.
Yes a brief shower and nothing more, gentle breeze but forcast is stronger winds.
Alan
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.....but her actual birth regis. still evades me.
The current GRO indexing is a new indexing of the actual registration documents. When the old original indexes were compiled (you can see images on FreeBMD) they simply followed different indexing rules to those of the current GRO indexing.
Her birth registration is:
AMBREY, PATIENCE
No mother's maiden surname
GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in WALLINGFORD Volume 06 Page 291
All you know from this is that the word 'formerly' does not appear before the mother's recorded surname, and therefore the GRO is unable to ascertain her maiden surname.
You also know from the old indexing that the surname WINCH appears somewhere on the registration.
You won't know the arrangement of the surnames unless you purchase the certificate.
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra.
I think, if you read back, you'll see that Alan already has that information and has reached the same conclusion :)
Carol
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There's also a Winch Pa*ce same ref. see attached screenshot
Meant to say earlier - I checked the GRO index image via FreeBMD and the only possibility on that page is Patience, so I've reported it as a transcription error.
Intermittent gusty showers, 12.7o.
Carol
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Hi all,
Just to finish topic off;
I'm more inclined to feel that Patience Winch (bn 1845ish) is the illeg d/o Ann, one of the "Winch" children whose parents are Thomas & Merrita Winch of Wallingford.
My reason for saying this is because they had a dau. Patience bapt 1825 and who died 1833 (aged 8 yrs) in Wallingford St.Mary Le More.
As mentioned before, In the 1851 census there is a Patience, aged 5, living as the d/o Brice Tutty & Ann born Wallingford and in 1861 she is a house maid aged 15 with the Liddiard family in Wallingford.
The GRO has no record of a Patience Tutty born about 1845 and still nothing found for a Patience Winch same period.
In all the censuses, Ann Winch is consistently 9 years older than her husband Brice which ties in with her bapt. in 1814 Wallingford St.Mary Le More d/o Thomas & Merrita.
So I'll let this topic go, unless or until the GRO let us know about the transcription error? for Patience.
Thanks also Carol for reporting it as well.
Alan
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It was actually FreeBMD I reported it to, so they could amend their transcription. (Oddly, they have 16 entries for that page whereas I think the limit was 12 at the time. If all the apparent errors were eliminated there would be 12 'good' entries.)
Meanwhile, I don't see how GRO can say there isn't an entry for Patience Winch when it's there for all the world to see ::)
Added: I'm assuming you know how to get to these images via FreeBMD?
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Hi all,
Just to let you know I have now reported 3 times to the GRO the error of Patience Winch's entry, the latest being on 13-6, and it is still "awaiting investigation" - previously they reported back the data was correct.
CarolA3
Added: I'm assuming you know how to get to these images via FreeBMD?
I missed seeing this entry, perhaps when you have the time I would like to know how to get the these images.
Many thanks.
Alan
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CarolA3
Added: I'm assuming you know how to get to these images via FreeBMD?
I missed seeing this entry, perhaps when you have the time I would like to know how to get the these images.
Repeat your earlier FreeBMD search, then click on the spectacles symbol to the right of Patience Winch's entry. This opens a new page. Read all the other stuff later - it's useful, but for now scroll down to 'View the original' about halfway down on the left. Click, open, and lo! all shall be revealed :)
Carol
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CarolA3,
Many thanks for that tip. I had forgotten about that having progressed to using only the printed versions.
Alan