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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Revolution on Monday 11 June 18 06:44 BST (UK)
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Hi
On 14 Jul 1772 at Charlwood, Surrey, England my 5th great grandmother Elizabeth Chantler was born to John Chantler and Elizabeth. At this stage I haven't found John and Elizabeths marriage. John and Elizabeth had at least 6 children and I have their baptisms.
On 28 Nov 1790 at Nicolls Lane, London Elizabeth married John Sykes. He died in 1802. I havent found any children to this marriage.
On 29 Sep 1802 at St Martin in the Fields, Westminster Elizabeth married Joshua Collier and had at least 4 children.
Both Joshua and Elizabeths marriage bonds said they had married previously. On ancestry there is some information which says that Joshua Collier was married to Jane Landon but strangely it also lists her death after his in 1838. If the trees are correct he died in 1830 in Surrey. Joshuas children with Elizabeth are:
Elizabeth 1803
Jane 1805
Francis 1807
John 1808
Can anyone help me find the correct first wife for Joshua? His origins are more mysterious. Some have him being born in Northumberland, others in Hertfordshire and others in Spitalfields.
Joshuas children with Jane were:
Joshua 1789
James John 1791
Maria 1795
Mary 1795
Harry Koskinko 1798
Jane 1799 (most ancestry trees have this Jane still alive as the second Jane)
Caroline Kendal Jane 1799
Anna 1801
Im assuming the 'twins' are most likely mistakes between birth/baptism names.
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Free Reg has three records in the name of Joshua Collier.
Baptism 23 Dec 1760, Cripplegate. Son of John and Mary(Dyer)
Marriage 15 Aug 1784 to Mary Mures. St Marylebone.
Burial 2 Mar 1844 age 83 Gravesend.
Might well be three entirely separate people, totally unconnected with yours, but possibly worth further investigation.
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Also from Free Reg.
Burial 9 May 1821. Caroline Kendall. Daughter of Joshua and Jane Collier.
Burial 2 Jan 1839 Jane, age 74. Wife of Joshua Collier.
Both All Hallows, Tottenham
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There are a few notices in the newspapers for Joshua COLLIER, eg:
"MARRIED ... On Wedndesday last, at St Martin's in the Fields, Joshua Collier Esq, to Miss Sykes."
Morning Post, Friday, December 3, 1802
Putting their marriage on 1 Dec 1802.
"DIED ... In Mark-lane, on Wednesday last, Miss Caroline Kendall Collier, fourth daughter of Joshua Collier, Esq., of Havre de Grace, aged 17."
Morning Chronicle, Saturday, May 12, 1821
"MARRIED ... On the 11th inst., at Charlwood church, Surrey, David Charles Porter, Esq., of Park-place, to Frances, youngest daughter of Joshua Collier, Esq., of Old Lands, Surrey."
The Times, November 13, 1822, Issue 11715, p.3
If this is the same Joshua Collier (oilman, of Mark-lane) he was also bankrupt in 1793 and 1800.
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I can't see a death notice for Joshua, however there are notices about disposing of his estate in July 1835.
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Hi
This burial at the Quaker Meeting House
Elizabeth Chantler wife of John Chantler of Charlwood died 26.6.1782 buried 30.6.1782 age 35
witness Thomas Chantler grave maker.
Do you know what Joshua did for a living?
There's a Joshua Collier admitted as a freeman to the City of London in 1790 ,an ironmonger born 1760 son of John Collier.
His apprenticeship 1776 gives his father as John apothecary.
There is a Josh/Joshua Collier on the Westminster rate books from 1774- 1823.
Also a marriage at St john Horsely Down
Joshua Collier and Rebecca Sergeant 27.7.1781 wit Richard and Ann Collins Stephen Sargent Elizabeth Brasnell.
possible burial for Rebecca at St James Hampstead Road Westminster age 43 26.4.1799
Daughter Ann Rebeccca 4.3.1784 age 6 weeks bapt at Rotherhithe,son Joshua 31.3.1786,Mary born Nov 25th 1789 King st St George in the East.
There is a PCC will for the guy who died at Reigate in 1830 mentioning his daughter Elizabeth Cuff and her family.Daughter Jane Rolf and her family ,someone Porter goes on for pages and pages.
Burial suggests a birth 1762 -2.10.1830.
Ciderdrinker
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Death notice for Jane in 1838:
"DIED ... Jane, wife of Joshua Collier, Esq., of Bruce-terrace, Tottenham, aged 74"
The Champion, Sunday, December 30, 1838
There is a PCC will for the guy who died at Reigate in 1830 mentioning his daughter Elizabeth Cuff and her family.Daughter Jane Rolf and her family ,someone Porter goes on for pages and pages.
Burial suggests a birth 1762 -2.10.1830.
Ciderdrinker
Probably the PORTER who married Joshua's youngest daughter Frances in 1822?
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Hi
It turns out that John Collier names his sons wife Jane in his 1816 Will so that Joshua can't be yours and must be the one married to Jane Landon.
The Joshua Collier oilman has a petition on London lives 1783 concerning importing rape seed oil and is of Cannon st London and must be another chap separate from the iron monger son of John .
The man at Rotherhithe seems to be a Customs House officer -re court case for assault 1785 which might have a tie in with imports as an oil man 1783 but perhaps I'm trying to shoe horn things in.
I think the Will and death at Reigate are yours so a birth around 1762 but not to John and Mary .
Ciderdrinker
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There's a death notice for J COLLIER who died in 1830, with a birth around 1762, however it says "James" :
"DIED ... On the 22nd inst., Mr James Collier, of Bridge-street, Westminster, in the 69th year of his age."
The Times, December 24, 1830
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Hi Everyone
Thank you for your responses. It is much appreciated.
Which site did the newspaper stories come from? Similarly where did the Wills come from?
Ciderdrinker: what is the PCC? My Elizabeth Collier married John Cuff and emigrated to New Zealand. I have their New Zealand details.
"There is a PCC will for the guy who died at Reigate in 1830 mentioning his daughter Elizabeth Cuff and her family.Daughter Jane Rolf and her family ,someone Porter goes on for pages and pages.
Burial suggests a birth 1762 -2.10.1830.
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The newspaper story about Caroline Kendal Colliers death is confusing. I thought her birth was 1799 but 1803 is what is inferred.
On ancestry there is a baptism along with some of her other siblings (Harry Kozinsko Collier, Maria Louisa Collier) on this day: 23 May 1815 Stapleford Tawney,Essex,England
Mary, Kozinsko and Jane Collier were all baptised 1 Sep 1802 at the same time. Thomas Carter and Elizabeth Gurney were the witnesses.
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Found it: Title: Will of Joshua Collier of Red Hill , Surrey
Thats not so easy to read
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Which site did the newspaper stories come from? Similarly where did the Wills come from?
I accessed them through British Library Newspapers which is free to use through our National Library with a library card (in Australia, as an Oz resident), probably available in other countries through a similar system? Not sure where you are?
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Missed this one yesterday - Elizabeth's death notice:
"DIED ... On the 2nd inst., at Reigate, Elizabeth, relict of the late Joshua Collier, Esq., aged 66."
The Age, Sunday, November 12, 1837
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Hi maddys52
I'm also in Australia and wasn't aware that you could access that site through our National Library. Does the same apply in each state? I'm in SA.
There is a PCC will for an Elizabeth Collier but I am unsure if its the right one.
Thank you for the additional death notice.
I noticed that one of my cousins has Elizabeths father was Moses Chantler and Joshua marrying a Rebecca Sargeant which ciderdrinker mentioned previously. Ill have to try and map their childrens names to see if they align.
Would the record of Jane Collier dying after Joshua mean that we should be ruling that couple out?
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Hi Revolution,
Yes any Australian resident can access the British Library Newspapers (and lots of other eresources as well) through the National Library of Australia. You need a library card to access online.
https://www.nla.gov.au/getalibrarycard/
I think this is quite a tricky family as it looks like there were 2 Joshua COLLIERs in London both around the same age. :-\ Easy to see how mistakes could be made.
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The link between the Will of the one who died and the Cuff woman is my Joshua.
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On 8th instant. Mr John Cuff eldest son of John Jackson Cuff Esq of Great Queen Street, Lincolns Inn Fields, to Elizabeth, eldest daughter of Joshua Collier Esq of the Vicarage, Horley, In Surrey
Globe - Saturday 12 August 1826
Now did Joshua abandon his first family because of his rising wealth or are there two Joshua Colliers Esqs? Elizabeth was the eldest child of his second wife.
Well theres definitely two well to do men. Joshua number 2 dies 13 March 1844 in Tottenham! aged 84. The same place as Jane which would mean Jane (unless theres two Janes) isnt his first wife.
Thoughts?
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I could be wrong, but I think that there are 2 Joshua COLLIERs and 2 separate families - one with wife Jane and all the children you have baptisms for, and another with wife Elizabeth and their children. This is consistent with the newspaper notices and will. The fact that your Joshua was widowed when he married Elizabeth SYKES does not mean that he was definitely married to Jane, but someone else, possibly Rebecca.
As I mentioned, it is easy to see how someone who is not quite so diligent would assume his first wife was Jane, though they would have to ignore her death in 1838.
Modified to add:
Good find the marriage notice of John CUFF - I had a quick look yesterday but couldn't find it. ;)
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Definitely two Joshua Colliers with two different families. I no longer believe that my Joshua was married to Jane so that leaves Rebecca and....
I think I may have found a third Joshua Collier married to Mary Mures in 1784
I think many of the trees have Janes death but have ignored it.