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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: KiwiHugh on Monday 11 June 18 12:45 BST (UK)
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Owen Scahill was born 6th June 1884 at Carrandulla Galway. Parents Owen and Mary nee Hession. I can see his death in 1959 recorded at Orange NSW. Can others see any other information about Owen please. The only marriage I can see is for a Thomas Owen Scahill in 1943 but as he had a brother Thomas Joseph here in NZ seems an unlikely due to name and date.
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Thomas Owen Scahill seems to be a much younger man (son of a Frank).
Any idea when Owen might have come to Australia?
I don't see a WWI record for him in Australia or anything in the newspapers at Trove.
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An Owen Scahill came out to Wellington NZ in 1909 so assuming it is him some time after that.. No marriage or death here so he must have left for ?? Australia ??
Just read my mail and my relatives had always thought it was brother Patrick, born 3 Feb 1881, who had gone to Australia.
Slight oppps Owen is at Motueka Tasman in 1911 and 1914
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There is a Patrick Scahill born 3/2/ 1881 Ireland who enlisted NZ WW1( image online at NZ Archives) and was KIA in France. NOK given as Edward Scahill(brother)
Stephanie from Australia
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Thanks Stefanie. Oh heck was about to say brother Edward ruled him out but that birth date niggled. Have now found out what happened to Patrick and a new Brother that no one knew about. Of course there is always the possibility of two Patricks born on the same day but.... Thank you ;D
OK looking like Edward was in fact a cousin. Had assumed the other two Scahills from that part of Galway were Owen and Patricks Uncles. Look even more likely now. Did a search of
just "Edwards" at Irelands BDM
Silly me. Went to write to a Scahill third cousin, then went back to get Edwards birth date. Realised I had only checked the first 100 Edwards. Voila Edmund Schahill born 9/4/1872 to the correct parents. Seemed strange to list a cousin when he had a brother Thomas Joseph also living in the Dunedin area. Edmund was the older and hence the one to list
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From my experience, when soldiers enlisted, the person taking down the details often made errors as there were unfortunately so many men to process.
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I see a record on one of my offline resources for a burial at Orange Cemetery.
SCHAELL, Owen. (This is the spelling I see)
ID 850
Religion Roman Catholic
Area, old
Section H
Number 83
The grave is unmarked, meaning there is not a headstone or inscription.
Sue
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Thanks Sue. Pity about the lack of headstone. Implies no family. Funny that he enrolled in NZ to vote but not in Australia. Our National Library could come up with nothing except his arrival and electoral enrolment and hits for his nephew. To simply disappear from records for 45 years in the 20th century takes some doing.
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Nothing to do with Owen but the "Will" of Patrick Scahill is his last letter home to Ned. So it is Edward that he recorded as his next of kin. In looking at him the other day b4 discounting him there is a nice picture of him at NZ's WW1 site
Just read his war record and Edward and Edmund are the same person. Medals went to Edmund and on one of the sheets Edmund of the same address has been written in in Red writing.
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His death entry on NSW Dept of Justice website "SCAHILL OWEN 11731/1959 father OWEN mother MARY death registered ORANGE implies whoever was the informant knew this correct information. Lack of gravestone could be financial.
If it was my research I would purchase his death certificate: it will tell you if married, how long in Aus, and who the informant was. Invaluable information.
Seems he slipped under the radar and avoided WW1 or enlisted under an alias.
Stephanie from Australia
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...... To simply disappear from records for 45 years in the 20th century takes some doing.
I agree with shume ....
Disappear in the Central West of New South Wales between say 1914 (commencement WWI) to death in 1959 ... Yes, very possible that you cannot find records for him in that era in NSW. You have him born Galway, Ireland. It was still possible to 'disappear' in NSW records even in the 1940s, and perhaps up until late 1980s when 100 points for ID rules came around.
a) He may not have been in NSW until shortly before his death ... NSW death certs (or the cheaper version, 'official transcription') have space for 'how long in the colonies/states ...
b) In NSW it became compulsory to enrol to vote in state elections in the 1920s if you were a British Subject, aged 21 and over, resident in NSW, not in gaol, not a bankrupt ... etc . I think Galway would be in the Republic of Ireland, and in the 1920s it separated from British rule, so it may be that he was 'staunch' Irish, and may not have considered he was a British Subject, so choose not to enrol.
c) He may have become known by a different name ... no need to provide proof of name at that time, just become known as ..... (still possible, but now it is quite difficult)
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WWI enlistment ... AIF ... not compulsory to enlist, all volunteers, two referendums on conscription during the war, both times the NO vote succeeded.
JM
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Other than the tax department, which you are not going to see, what "official record" between 1914 and 1959 do you actually expect to see ?
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Off topic again. Have found Edmund here in NZ. Variously under Edward, Schahill, Edmond and just rarely under Edmund Scahill.
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Other than the tax department, which you are not going to see, what "official record" between 1914 and 1959 do you actually expect to see ?
Hello xiaolu,
If you were to go to the Australian Resources section at the top of the Australian board, you could click on NSW, or indeed, any other state.
Within those links there are many possibilities for "official record"
When less experienced researchers place their inquiries with the Rootschat team, they may find the list of resources a little daunting or simply not know where to begin.
Likewise many here have resources not available online and are happy to search and share.
The spirit of Rootschat is to encourage and support people in finding their ancestors and where possible, offer positive guidance.
Have you useful suggestions for our OP?
Sue
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Thanks Sue. I have not had that many relatives living historically in Australia and had been hoping the more experienced Ozzy hunters could help.
It just seems weird that in a five year period he turns up in NZ records 3 times then nadda till his death.
Technically Owen is a relative of a relative but the 3rd cousin I am corresponding with is a relative newbie and thought I would try and help out. Have now found two siblings of Owens they did not know about and at getting dangerously close to milking time last night/this morning found a wedding at our equivalent to TROVE that included my 3rd cousins Mother and Aunt as brides maids and Edmund's daughters as niece flower girls to a couple that neither of us had heard of. That and Edmund's wife having the same maiden surname as her Great grandmother who did marry a blood relative of mine.
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:) I am NSW centric, and I have first hand experience of searching Central West NSW records, so please be assured that it was definitely possible to be 'not findable' in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, in and around Orange NSW. I have phoned several of my older relatives (I was born 1947, one is two generations older than me, the others just one generation older than me) .... one is retired NSW BDM senior officer ... all have long standing interest in genealogy ... long before internet ... they concur, easy to be 'not findable' in NSW until the Qintex scandal in Australia prompted the ID rule changes 1990s ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qintex
JM
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Official Transcriptions of NSW death certs are cheaper than the real deal document. They will give you the same info as the real deal doc, and they are already transcribed by experienced transcribers, familiar with the handwriting of the scribe who lodged the registration if it is not a typed/EDP/computer lodged registration. - budget for around $20Au, expect to receive as pdf attachment to email. :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
What info? It does depend on the informant's knowledge, but the headings on the document cover the following:
Full name,
sex,
age,
date & place of death,
usual place of residence,
occupation
and marital status.
Place of marriage/s
age when married,
full name of spouse (including where known any other names).
Living Children's name and ages, and noting any by at least gender and then age who had succumbed already, all listed under each marriage if more than one marriage, .
Parents' names and mother's maiden name.
Cause/s of death and duration of last illness.
Burial or cremation date and place. (often including name of clergy at graveside)
Funeral director
Any endorsements
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/registry-records.aspx
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
ADD
Of course, as mentioned earlier, the document will also include the response re 'how long in the colony/state'... etc
JM
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:)
Who is the Owen SCAHILL mentioned
a) NZ Archway record indexed as https://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24711202 Assisted passage for Mr Owen Scahill, SS Ionic, perhaps in 1908-09?
for Cycling without light in the newspaper digitised at papers past https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/press pg 7 28 April 1936 Magistrate’s Court ?
SCAHILL as a surname is found in NSW official records from around 1812 ... Happy to look up if needed ...
JM
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Hi the cycling Owen is his nephew. All three other brothers came out to NZ. My cuz is lucky in that there is only one Scahill in the berg they came from in the tithes apploments and that is an Edmund. Assumed son Owen had our mystery man Owen and named eldest son Edmund. While the 3 hits from 1909 to 1914 are not conclusive evidence, the fact that all three other brothers settled here lends weight to them.
Will ask my cuz about the cert when she gets back from Ireland where she is visiting her 2nd cousins if she wants to get it, as after all, he is her relative. Maybe the rellies over there can throw some light on him.
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Other than the tax department, which you are not going to see, what "official record" between 1914 and 1959 do you actually expect to see ?
Have you any useful information for our OP
Sue
Well, yes. Yes I do.
Have realistic expectations.
The OP expressed some surprise that she or he can find no online official record of her ancestor between between 1914 and his death in 1959 iirc.
Most of the online resources you refer to, are 19th century resources. Lists of convicts, early immigrants, and other things. For early and mid 20th century, you won't find much government records online, for privacy reasons.
Other than indexes to records for births ( to 1918 ), marriages ( to1968 ) and deaths ( to 1988 ), there is not much else. Some of the electoral rolls are online from non-government sources.
You could investigate land records but this is not easy unless you know what the land is. Not much else from the government is or will be published online.
For an unexceptional person apparently not in trouble with the law, I am still bemused as to what records the OP was actually expecting to see, particularly given his or her rather sneering remarks about Australian record-keeping.
So, two pieces of advice.
1) Have realistic expectations. and
2) Learn to use Trove properly. This is by far the most useful source of information for the relevant period.
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Without going too far off topic, may I again gently mention that the NSW Resources board here at RChat is full of live links that do cover live links to a good deal of recent details, not just late18th/all 19th/much of 20th centuries.
:) One example would be the link to Ryerson index, a site that is updated very regularly. I have checked just now, and I can see the newspaper details for a death/funeral I attended earlier THIS MONTH.
:) There’s also at the very first item of reply 1 of the NSW resources, the live link to whitepages ... and next item to that is the live link to ‘where is’... real time info there. I have just checked, and YES, my cousin who moved home LAST WEEKEND ... their new phone number is listed, and their new street (new subdivision in new suburb) is there at where is.
:) I see Trove listed and I have just checked the link offered. Works perfectly, and I notice there’s currently 454 newspapers digitised there for NSW .... just read an article from a newspaper issue from 2010, I see the Commonwealth Gazette is up to December 2012 and NSW Gazette to 2001. I can find engagement announcement for a family member in the 1990s in the ACT ...
:) Yes, many/most of the links in the NSW Resources Board’s lists are for 19th century and yes, in a strict sense, only government records are Official records, but I am sure that the Sands Directories up to mid 1930s are a valid resource, well recognised by family historians and perhaps are well used by professional genealogists. And as RChatters, we are not looking for the living, but helping our fellow members with their research into their deceased ancestors.
:) There are cemetery records, which are findable when combining cemetery indexes and/or NSW BDM online indexes. Various live links are there on the NSW Resources Board.
I know there’s many other examples too, but may I please urge Xiaolu and everyone following any thread, that we are here as volunteers to share ... and our Global Moderator caring for our Australia Board has recently needed to post the following message on a thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794104.msg6517152#msg6517152
xiaolu there are nicer ways of putting your point across. I was brought up with the expression that if you can not say anything nice or constructive say nothing at all.
Sarah
,,,,, For an unexceptional person apparently not in trouble with the law, I am still bemused as to what records the OP was actually expecting to see, particularly given his or her rather sneering remarks about Australian record-keeping.
So, two pieces of advice.
1) Have realistic expectations. and
2) Learn to use Trove properly. This is by far the most useful source of information for the relevant period.
May I also publically thank the OP for their kind PM that I received yesterday. I understand that our OP is helping a member of their extended family with their research into their extended family. Once that person is available to consider obtaining the 1959 death cert info then perhaps we can all help further.
JM
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The OP expressed some surprise that she or he can find no online official record of her ancestor between between 1914 and his death in 1959 iirc.
Well, actually this is what KiwiHugh said.....
To simply disappear from records for 45 years in the 20th century takes some doing.
Information from offline resources has been offered.
Hopefully the information has been of help to Hugh.
Trove newspaper Archive is certainly valuable as a resource, but it may be a matter of opinion as to whether it is
2) ....... Trove ........ This is by far the most useful source of information for the relevant period.
Sue