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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Zoe44 on Tuesday 12 June 18 00:38 BST (UK)
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Hi I'm not sure if I'm being really silly but my great uncles WW1 war records show 2 of his children's birthplace as S.H.V.
Im assuming that it could be an abbreviation for Southwark and just wanted to ask your opiniona!? 😊x
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The births of Charles (1908) and Percy (1910) were registered in southwark - but I've never seen SHV (or SAV?) used for Southwark.
Philip
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It doesn't fit with the other places of birth and I'm not sure it makes sense but could it stand for something like Southwark Hospital Vauxhall? (though I don't know if there is or was such a place) ... and most/all births would have occurred at home in that era. :-\
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Could the "V" stand for Village?
Not sure what, though! ;D
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Can you find the family on 1911 census?
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Can you find the family on 1911 census?
It just says "Southwark" for the two boys ... All other children are born "Hammersmith".
Address in 1911 is 55 St Katherine's Road. (today it is Wilsham Street)
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The Birth Index gives Edward Percy's place of birth as Brentford, Middlesex. Any idea what father's occupation was at the time? That might give us a clue.
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The WW1 army records have a few other children with "SHV" as their birthplace: Annie & Rose Hill (1902) who appear to have been born in Staines; same family Beatrice & Alice Hill (1906) who appear to have been born in Egham/Windsor; and Annie Crawley (1908) born Lambeth.
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Hi sorry at work just been reading through all your replies! 😊
Thanks Shaun thats interesting that other children have SHV on WW1 records as I hadn't thought to look. ..
Think he was a Railway works labourer around the time Edward Percy was born
Think I get googling again see what I can find! Lol
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If you search for SH* you will also find a few others - S.H.Cte (e.g. Philip Mansfield Abel) and one S.H.Extract (Baglee).
Added: also sometimes SHCert.
Short H? Version?
Could it be to do with the version of the birth certificate provided as evidence - maybe the shorter form birth certificates didn't include location of birth, only date?
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Hmm yes.. "ShortHand Version" seems a likely explanation
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Hi thankyou..
Short hand version does seem most likely reason.
I wasn't taking into account that birth certificates needed to be provided at the time of army registration so thank you for all your thoughts!! 😊
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Hi thankyou..
Short hand version does seem most likely reason.
I wasn't taking into account that birth certificates needed to be provided at the time of army registration so thank you for all your thoughts!! 😊
Did they? :-\ I thought many underage boys enlisted in WW1 .... they obviously did not supply a b/c.
Why would his children's birth certificates need to be supplied? :-\
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I thought maybe they kept details of dependents (so wife and children's date of birth) in the event of pension and disability payments etc.
I would guess though that they had some kind of check so you couldn't claim for more children than there were, so it was the children's birth certs rather than the one for the man himself.
However, I really don't know for sure.
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I'm not sure that birth certificates were required for recruits during WW1 as the attestation papers ask for apparent age or some such wording, rather than real age, or evidence of such. Which probably accounts for why so many 15 year olds were shipped out to an early death.
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The heading to the column asks for birth place.
I don't understand why "Short Hand Version" would be written in the birth place column. All the other children have places written in the birth place column.
Would it be usual for someone in that era to even have a copy of their birth certificate. :-\ When were short certificates first issued and given (free) to parents?
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I have been pondering the SHV problem and got out my late Grandmother's Short Birth Certificate. (County Durham)
Lilian May Ord
Girl
Twentysecond February 1901
Place of Birth (no allowance for actual place)
Registration District Lanchester
Sub-district Tanfield
Lilian herself had penciled in Stanley, which I know is where she was born.
Short Birth Certificates where cheaper to buy as against the full ones. The Army Clerk on the WW1 forms had probably two shortened birth certificates for two of the children and had to go off the information written which would be similar to Lillian's. It was not his job to take the parents word for the births and where they actually were.
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In an era when age was a lot 'looser' and many folk didn't celebrate birthdays etc., I always wondered how the 'Particulars as to Children' in such army records were so precise in relation to dates of birth.
It would seem plausible that the preciseness was due to birth certificates being required. There are several contemporary examples of the short version of the birth certificate online, they have no provision for place of birth, as in this example from Southwark District in 1921:
http://www.mike-allen.org.uk/alf/bcert.htm
Edited to add: The following notice from the Western Gazette of December 1915 might be relevant:
PUBLIC NOTICES.
NOTICE TO RECRUITS.
ALL MARRIED MEN presenting themselves for Enlistment should bring their Marriage Certificates, also Birth Certificates of Children, if any, to prevent delay in the issue of Separation Allowance to their families.
And this:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/28448
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barryd, it is interesting to hear about your grandmother's 1901 short b/c. I had a quick look online but couldn't find anything obvious. :)
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While I can't provide absolute proof,
my belief is I am in no doubt that the SH referred to Somerset House which was at the time the site of the General Register Office responsible for issuing birth certificates etc.
It is highly likely that the third element was the individual clerk's invention indicating that a version of the birth cert had been seen. As Gaffy has posted, no place of birth was recorded on a certificate of registration but it would serve as existence of the child. The example S H Cte would seem to be the most sensible. While the certificate of registration was issued locally, it was under the authority of Somerset House wherever it was issued.
As to putting it in the place of birth column, there wasn't another column to put it in and it does at least indicate that evidence of the birth had been seen.
MaxD
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barryd, it is interesting to hear about your grandmother's 1901 short b/c. I had a quick look online but couldn't find anything obvious. :)
Section 30 of the 1874 Act stated that a registrar shall, upon demand made at the time of registering any birth by the person giving the information concerning the birth, and upon payment of a fee not exceeding three pence, give to such person a certificate under his hand, in the prescribed form, of having registered that birth. I assume that this was the Short Birth Certificate, as the Ordinary Certificate was 2s. 6d. as required by the 1836 Act.
You can see an example of a short certificate dated 1936 at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=634529.msg4820875#msg4820875
See http://anguline.co.uk/cert/SAB.jpg for a copy of an 1884 short certificate
Stan
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I have amended my earlier post. I have no doubt that SH is Somerset House. Indeed, those of us who can remember black and white television never used the term GRO, it was always Somerset House in connection with that sort of record.
To attempt to translate the V in the start of this thread is a waste of effort. It is clear from the examples that SH is common to all but the clerk put something else that took his fancy at the end with SH Certificate being the most sensible. The place of birth was not the important element, it was the fact of the birth that counted.
MaxD
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My father never had to show his birth certificate prior to starting national service in the late 1940s. I know he never saw it until 1985.
Martin
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To attempt to translate the V in the start of this thread is a waste of effort. It is clear from the examples that SH is common to all but the clerk put something else that took his fancy at the end with SH Certificate being the most sensible. The place of birth was not the important element, it was the fact of the birth that counted.
MaxD
Maybe the "V" was for verified or validated?
Perhaps it was possible for the clerks to obtain confirmation from Somerset House without having to actually see the certificates themselves.
Just an idea...
Karen
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Karen beat me to it! My thought was ‘verified’ as well.
Isobel
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Both perfectly sensible suggestions although I doubt that in those far off days when communications were nowhere near as quick as they are now, it would have been the task of the clerks processing the thousands of men signing up to sort out getting the proof, that would surely be up to the man.
However, opinions are like ar (deleted) everyone is entitled to one.
MaxD
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Just to say that I agree with MaxD - SH = Somerset House.
I remember when my sister and I started to do our family history in the 1950s, someone told us that we'd have to go to Somerset House to get the relevant certificates. My sister later went there when she moved to London in 1959.
Somerset House Verified or Validated seems the best interpretation :)
Gadget
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For background (skip this if easily bored) the details of marriage and dependants (if any) were collated so that if applicable separation allowance could be paid. The details were collated on Army Form D 418A which was sent from the recruiting office to the pay system. There was no doubt a set of "Instructions for the completion of AF D418A" - if anyone has one about their person they might like to check what it tells the clerks about the procedure with childrens' birth certs although after 100 years it might be getting a bit tattered. The subject of this thread was one of 136,811 men volunteering in October 1914. :)
MaxD
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My father never had to show his birth certificate prior to starting national service in the late 1940s. I know he never saw it until 1985.
I wonder if NHS no.s may have been used?
Annie
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The NHS didn't start until 1948 so nu NHS numbers in either war.
MaxD
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My father never had to show his birth certificate prior to starting national service in the late 1940s. I know he never saw it until 1985.
He would have had his civilian National Identity card from 1939 until at least 1952 as 'proof' of name, address, and date of birth. (They were pretty pointless as ID because they didn't include a photo, but that was how it was back then!)
Carol
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It would be nice to hear what the OP thinks given she has visited the site since my suggestion.
MaxD