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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: alison2763 on Tuesday 19 June 18 02:08 BST (UK)
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Hello I'm looking for some help.
Caroline was born in 1793- not sure where. Can't find her Birth.
She married William PRICE 11.10.1819
Name Caroline Philadelphia Elizabeth Parler
Gender Female
Marriage Date 11 Oct 1819
Marriage Place Saint Mary,Newington,Surrey,England
Spouse William Price
FHL Film Number 307696, 307697, 307698, 307699, 307700, 307701, 307702, 307703
I have found 2 sons
John Henry PRICE- BIRTH 24 NOV 1820 • Saint James,Westminster,London,England this is all I know about him.
and my 3 X Great Grandfather.
William Price
1824–1866
BIRTH 20 JUL 1824 • Fordham, Cambridgeshire England
DEATH 28 SEPT 1866 • Happy Valley, Cardwelll Street Balmain, New South Wales
Caroline was transported to Australia on the " Sarah & Elizabeth " and arrived here in 1837.
I am looking for Caroline's Birth/Baptism & parents and William PRICE's death or possible remarriage.
TIA
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Her name, according to her own signature on the parish official record in original digitised form, is PARLER.
It appears twice on the document.
Once written by the clerk or clergyman and then as mentioned by herself in uncertain, but clear script.
It does no resemble PARTER in my opinion.
Sue
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::) NSW Archives online index (which uses the convention of the surname in CAPITALS ::) ::) )
Caroline PERCY, alias PHILADELPHIA or PRICE, Elizabeth gives Certificate of Freedom refernce as 440695, 2 May 1844.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/search_form?id=65
JM
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Convict Indents has her as a WIDOW aged 43, native place HULL ... #37-49 (37 as in 1837) She could read & write, 2 male children, a Laundress (complete) was a Protestant, tried at Central Criminal Court 28 Nov 1836, for stealing shoes, sentenced to 7 years (previous sentence of 3 months),
ADD surname as PHILADELPHIA
JM
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Hi,
On the death certificate of your 3 X Great Grandfather,William Price (d.1866)
In the column headed "how long in colony" what is the number of years shown for his total time in Australia?
Sue
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Duplicate/concurrent thread. UK Board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=795498.msg6521476
Sue
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Thank you all for your replies.
Thank you Sue- yes I agree it says PARLER.
Thanks Jim- can you post a link to that Indent please , I can't find it ?
Thanks Sue- on William Junior's DC (1866) it says he has been in the colony 13 years- arr. approx 1853
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Thanks Jim- can you post a link to that Indent please , I can't find it ?
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Try using the surname PHILADELPHIA :)
Convict Indents has her as a WIDOW aged 43, native place HULL ... #37-49 (37 as in 1837) She could read & write, 2 male children, a Laundress (complete) was a Protestant, tried at Central Criminal Court 28 Nov 1836, for stealing shoes, sentenced to 7 years (previous sentence of 3 months),
ADD surname as PHILADELPHIA
JM
JM
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Thanks Jim this is all I get, am I doing something wrong or do I need a Library Card or something to see the extra info ?
PHILADELPHIA Elizabeth PERCY, Caroline; PRICE Sarah & Elizabeth 1837 44/0695 2 May 1844 Certificate of Freedom [4/4391; Reel 1017]
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There are several commercial family history websites with partnership arrangements with NSW State Archives, and digitised images of convict indents may be available online that way.
I noticed that she was listed as a Widow, and that her native place was given as Hull. I think these are two good clues for your thread on the UK board.
May I ask how you have confirmed that the chap who died in 1866 is actually her son? I ask as PRICE was a fairly popular surname in the 1850 and 60s in NSW.
JM
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She is also indexed under PHILADELPHIA as at the Biographical Database of Australia.
April 1837, arrival per Sarah & Elizabeth, Convict Indents cited as Convict Indents various; SRNSW ref: 1829 Vol. 4/4014 & 4/4015; 1830 to 1835 Vols. 4/4024 & X633 to X637; 1836 to 1842 Vols. X638 to X642A; 1849 Vol. 4/4526.; List number: 37-49, Book entry number: 050.
December 1837 Muster, assigned to William GREVILLE, Sydney,...
May 1844 her Cert of Freedom 44/0695 details.
The BDA is another ongoing project, not for profit one, and with a nominal annual subscription. https://www.bda-online.org.au/
JM
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Hi Jim,
I am certain of the DC as it lists his known wife Anne STEWART - who went on to remarry Henry BUGLAR in 1870- and all of his children including my 2 X great grandmother Jane Elizabeth PRICE who married George RETFORD in Sydney in 1872.
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:)
But ... err ... :) what on the 1866 dc ties the deceased back to the 43 year old widow from Hull arriving 1837 as per the Convict Indents :) I am hoping it notes his mum's names :)
JM
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Jim,
Her name on the DC is Caroline PARLOUR.
Informant was George Craig, Friend of Short Street Balmain.
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I can't remember where I got PARTER from in the first place- possibly an incorrect transcription on Ancestry ;)
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:) agh, yes, that's likely to be Caroline Philadelphia :)
Don't worry re source as PARTER, PARLOUR is good for joining dots back :) handwritten records from that era were not transcribed for NSW BDM indexing purposes until 1930s ... ;D
JM
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Do you have info on Caroline in Australia after her emancipation? When/where did she die? Does the death registration provide helpful confirming info ….
Sidetracking, but just in case ….
Sands 1858 Sydney
George CRAIG, sailmaker, Jaques Wharf, p.r. (private residence) 49 Argyle Street
Sands 1864 Sydney Suburban Directory BALMAIN
George CREIG, shipwright, Short Street, (notice the spelling variation in surname)
William PRICE, storekeeper, Cardwell Street,
Sands 1867 Sydney
John PRICE, boiler-maker, Cardwell St, Balmain.
Sands 1869 Sydney
Mrs PRICE, John Street, Balmain
George CRAIG, carpenter, Short St, Balmain
NSW Electoral Roll 1870 THE GLEBE
George CRAIG, freehold, house, Short St, Balmain.
John PRICE, residence, New John St, Balmain.
Sands 1871 etc
George CRAIG, shipwright, Short St, Balmain
Mrs Ann PRICE, Ann St, Balmain
Sands 1873 etc
Hy BUGHLER, mariner, John St, Balmain (‘h’ in the surname)
Sands 1877 etc
Hy BUGHLER, mariner, John St, Balmain
NSW Electoral Roll 1878 THE GLEBE
George H BUGLER, household, John Street, Balmain
JM
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No I know nothing from when she landed until her death in 1865
PRICE CAROLINE 914/1865 AGE 72 YEARS DIED SYDNEY SYDNEY.
She is buried in the Camperdown Cemetery in Newtown- so is her son William ( a year later).
Judging by the info on NSW BDM I doubt whether there is much info on the Certificate but I'm thinking of getting it any way- I only found it 2 days ago ;)
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Sydney Anglican Parish Registers,
St Stephen, Newtown, in the year 1865
13286 on left hand margin, 13278 at centre burial numbering by clergy
Burials in the Parish of Camperdown, in the County of Cumberland
Caroline PRICE,
Abode : Infirmary
When Died August 31
When Buried September 3
Age 72 years
Quality or Profession (if Bond, Ship’s Name) Pauper
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/639479/camperdown-cemetery
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/188012887/caroline-price BN 13278
NSW BDM #914.
JM
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Thank you so much Jim :-*
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William Price
1824–1866
BIRTH 20 JUL 1824 • Fordham, Cambridgeshire England
What is this? Wasn't he baptised 23 July 1823 in London?
Considering that William was baptised at St Anne, Limehouse in 1823 and there were no more children, then a good chance for the father's death would be the burial at St Anne in 1824 aged 38 years. No occupations are recorded in the burial register.
Debra :)
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Hi Deb,
Yes I must edit that it is wrong.
I'll see if I can find that Burial. Thanks Deb ;)
I can't seem to edit my original post ??
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Just a comment as a matter of interest. ;D
The Old Bailey trial transcript has her surname as PEARCY.
It seems to me that this is a big variation from PARTER or PARLER and one wonders whether it was the name she was using at the time because of her possibly being in a relationship with a man of that surname.
If she had been widowed with two young children, it is possible she entered a new relationship quite quickly thereafter.
Her ( assumed deceased ) husband , William had been employed.
Am I correct in saying on the first birth registration he seems to be a "Sergeant in the ? guards"
The second birth as mentioned a cabinet maker.
It strikes me that she fell on hard times indeed.
Sue
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Thanks Sue- on William Junior's DC (1866) it says he has been in the colony 13 years- arr. approx 1853
More thinking......
So, 16 years after his mother was transported,William PRICE came to NSW.
He apparently lived in the same area as his mother and they were both buried at the same cemetery.
Do you know whether their *graves were close or shared?
He was a storekeeper, according to JM's posted information, so had a reasonable income.
Yet, she died as pauper at an infirmary. This means probably a *public grave. (ie financed by the state)
The death certificate may be of interest if her son was the informant there may be clues even if scant. ::)
Sue
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Hi Sue,
Thanks for your thoughts.
I can't find where they are buried in Camperdown Cemetery- only Burial numbers are listed.
I think I will have to get Caroline's DC to see what's on it.
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Hi
You should NOT expect to find identifying information on the d.c. that will give you which plot at that cemetery. :( If you are ordering the d.c. please do consider that the informant was likely from the hospital, rather than a family member, and of course I would suggest that IF you are ordering it, please don't waste funds on real deal cert, get official transcription
JM
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Yes Jim. I understand and I would use a Transcription Agent. I don't expect to find much at all on it, hence my hesitation in ordering it. But you never know .....
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:) fingers crossed that when she was admitted to the hospital that the clerk handling the paperwork asked Caroline all sorts of family history questions, and wrote down the answers, and used that info for the dc.
JM
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Bahaha. That would be a first Jim ;D
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https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/639479/camperdown-cemetery
JM
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I have received the DC Transcription. Not much info as expected :(
Name: Caroline Price
DOD: 31 August 1865
Place: Sydney Infirmary
Occ: Pauper
Sex: Female
Age: 72
Conjugal Status: -
Place of Birth: England
Time in Aust Colonies: 20Years
Father: Unknown
Occupation: Unknown
Mother: Unknown
Place of Marriage:-
Age at Marriage: -
Name of Spouse: -
Children of Marriage:-
Informant: K Houston, Resident Surgeon of Infirmary
Cause of Death: Erysipelas
Length of Illness:-
Medical Attendant: Dr Foucart
Date last seen: 30 Aug
Date of Burial: 2 Sep 1865
Place of Burial: Camperdown Cemetery
Minister& Religion: ( "Kemp" is written in pencil)
Undertaker: J Curtis
Witnesses: Thos McCarthy, W Baldick
Registered: 1 Sep 1865- Sydney
So not much we didn't already know :(
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I’ve joined here to post this. I think I can help you with John Henry Price, but first a bit of background.
My 3xGreat Grandfather John Johnson, a seaman, married Frances (Fanny) McCarthy in June 1839 at Broulee, near the Moruya River: NSW BDM V1839628 75 (as Johnston and Mc Carthie)
In November 1839 their only child, John William Johnson, was born, “the first white child on the Moruya River” according to family legend: NSW BDM V1839139 24A
Frances’ mother, also called Frances (sometimes Francis or Fanny) McCarthy (but also known as Frances Donohoe) had arrived as a convict aboard the “Mariner” in 1825 from Dublin. Her husband, Owen McCarthy (also known as Owen Carthy or Owen McCarty) had arrived on the "Medina" in 1823. Owen died in 1828 (I think, can’t find this at the moment). In 1838 Frances McCarthy (Snr) married William Woods in Sydney: NSW BDM V18381549 22 Both were widowed and neither could write.
William Woods (John Johnson’s step-father-in-law) owned a Tasmanian-built cutter of 19 tons, the “Industry”, which plied between Sydney and Broulee between 1840 and 1845, when it was wrecked. William Woods was master of the “Industry”, but in 1842 and 1843 John Johnson is listed as the master of this coastal trading boat. In 1843 to 1845 he is listed as the master of the 22-ton cutter “Emma”.
So, what’s all this got to do with Caroline Philadelphia Elizabeth Pearcy/Parler/Price?
Family legend has it that John Johnson changed his name from Price to Johnson. Family legend also has it that his mother maintained that she was a gentlewoman who had been transported by mistake as she’d picked up an umbrella by accident. She apparently sometimes called herself Caroline Percy and maintained she was a relative of the noble Percy family.
I hadn’t taken much notice of these stories until I stumbled across a reference to a memorial (petition) made by Frances Johnson in 1850. I obtained a copy of the memorial, where Frances Johnson was appealing to have her husband let out of gaol. John had been convicted of a vicious assault and sentenced to a year in Darlinghurst Gaol, details here:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251536800
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12915598
I looked up the gaol admission records, which gave me the name of the ship and date: “Sarah and Elizabeth”, 1837. I found out it was a female convict transport, so presumed that John had come out on it with his mother. No Johnsons were listed, but when I saw “Caroline Philadelphia Elizabeth Pearcy, also known as Elizabeth Price” I was pretty sure I’d found the correct person. The “Sarah and Elizabeth” had 96 female convicts and 10 children on board. Some of the children are noted on the printed indent as “on board”, but neither of Caroline’s children are noted this way. Nonetheless, I’m confident that John Henry was on board the “Sarah and Elizabeth”.
So, I believe that in 1837 John Henry Price came out with his mother on the “Sarah and Elizabeth” and by 1839 had changed his name to John Johnson. He and Frances Johnson only had the one child, John William Johnson. John William Johnson married Emily Eyles at Tabulam in 1861: NSW BDM 2800/1861 and they went on to have 14 children.
I have been unable to trace a death record for John Johnson. Frances Johnson’s appeal failed and after his release from gaol I have found no further information on him. Frances Johnson remarried in 1871 to William Clark: NSW BDM 1142/1871 She is listed as a widow, but there are no details of John’s death. Over 50 John Johnsons died between 1851 and 1871 in NSW. While I’ve ruled out a fair number of them, I haven’t (yet) found the right one.
Remarkable to think the two brothers both ended up in Sydney. I wonder whether they had much contact? I’m delighted to have sorted this out, I had just about given up on working out about John’s brother.
Re Caroline, in the 1850 memorial William Dumaresq of Tivoli writes that John Johnson’s mother (name not given) “has been in my service several years”. That’s all I can find to add to her story.
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Hello John,
Thank you for the message which I got about 5 minutes before my modem died. It has been killing me waiting to get back to you.
I will go over everything you have given me and get back to you ASAP.
Thank you again :D
Regards
Alison
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Family legend has it that John Johnson changed his name from Price to Johnson. Family legend also has it that his mother maintained that she was a gentlewoman who had been transported by mistake as she’d picked up an umbrella by accident. She apparently sometimes called herself Caroline Percy and maintained she was a relative of the noble Percy family.
I have just stumbled on this thread as I am doing some research on my family tree. Josephine Percy Johnson is my 2nd great grandmother. There are stories amongst the family of us being related to the noble Percy family as well! Although our family has a different version of why the Percys changed their name to Johnson. So interesting to hear we aren't the only ones to have heard that.