RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Tara-Leigh on Tuesday 19 June 18 04:01 BST (UK)
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'm in hopes I can break through this brick wall here...
I've always had great success with rootschat.com so I'm really hoping and crossing fingers :)
All the documentation I have are original documents so I don't understand why I can't find my german roots in Germany. Here's everything I have and I'll do my best to spell everything correctly..
My great-grandfather:
GEBURTSURKUNDE
Standesamt München I Nr. 2916/1883
Johann George Goll
ist am 19.April 1883
in Muchen Kanalstrabe 62 geboren.
Mutter: Walburga Goll, Kochin und Backer-meisterstochter, katholisch.
My great-grandparents:
Heiratsurkunde
Standesamt Munchen III Nr. 498/1921
Der Schreiner Johann Georg Goll, wohnhaft in Munchen geboren am 19. April 1883 in Munchen.
Standesamt I Munchen Nr. 2916, und die Buglerin Anna Koberlein, wohnhaft in Muchen geboren am 17.Oktober 1888 in Winkels, Bezirksamt, Kissingen.
Standesamt Winkels Nr. 10.
haben am 30.April 1921 vor dem Standesamt Munchen III die Ehe geschlossen.
** Now I was told that they got married after they arrived in New York in 1925...so I no longer know if that is true and factual.
My grandmothers visa:
Therese Goll
American Consular Service at Munich, Bavaria, Germany (one stamp # is 113412 and another # is 34143) Passport # B342 issued by Police at Munich, Bavaria on the 28th day of March 1924 valid until the 28th day of March 1926. Visa expires 5th day of June 1925....
On the second page of the "Application for Immigration Visa (Quota)" it states the following:
Available documents required by the Immigration Act of 1924 are filed herewith and made part hereof, as follows: "Affidavit of Support attached to the mother's papers. Birth Certificate; Medical Certificate; and Certificate of Residence. ** Note: We don't have the Immigration/Visa paper work for my great-grandmother Anna Goll. She arrived with her daughters Feb. 1925 and continued to Mt. Kisco, NY. to join my great-grandfather George Goll.
My great-grandmothers family:(translated by my mother's hand-writing - bear with me for spelling)
Andreas & Therese Koberlein ~ lived on the Hemmerich Str. in Bad Kissinger ~ died 1936-1940
They had 5 daughters:
1. Marie Koberlein (married name: Leiber) born 4/1890 died 2/26/1981 in Bad Kissinger ~ no kids
2. Tina Koberlein (married name: Antlitz) lived int the Erherd Str. in Bad Kissinger ~ she was the first of the 5 sisters to die in Bad Kissinger. (1) son Dr. Horst Antlitz, 7 Stuttgart 1, Calwer Str. 58, Germany.
3. Rosa Koberlein (married name: Wieskoziel (?)) she was the second of the 5 sisters to die. (1) daughter Dr. Leuchen, Wumer Summerstr. 2, Grunfels 6974 (?)
4. Paulina "Lina" Koberlein (married name: Cieslinski) Erherd Str. 3 (now #5) Bad Kissinger. No kids and the third to die.
5. Anna Margaret Koberlein (married name: Goll) died in New York 12/28/1969 had two daughters
Luise S. Goll born 9/17/11 in Bad Kissinger no kids died in Queens New York.
Theresa Goll born 12/16/13 in Bad Kissinger one daughter died in Glendale, CA.
Well, I have more, but like I said...I have a lot of documentation and notes ~ I just can't link any census reports or directories or burials, etc...nothing at least not in Germany...
I would greatly appreciate any and all assistance...fingers crossed and a great big THANKS if you find anything...
Looking forward to hearing from anyone...
Sincerely,
Tara
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Passenger list - 1923 Bremen to New York - ship München
Here´s a Georg Goll. Tischler (another name for Schreiner), married, 40 years old
http://212.227.236.244/passagierlisten/listen.php?ArchivIdent=AIII15-30.11.1923_N&pass=Goll&ID=58444&ankunftshafen=New%20York&lang=de
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Thank you for responding so quick...I almost discard the information as I have a lot of information of my great grandfather (Johann Georg Goll) traveling between Germany and New York City. This particular information you sent me I did not have and I must say I'm confused when you say Tischler is another name for Schreiner...what does that mean? When translated it says "occupation". My ggrandfather was a carpenter and made some beautiful pieces of furniture. In NYC his carpentry skills help him in his new profession as a building superintendent. Is there any other information going back to Germany from this passenger list?
Again thank you for your help...I'd still am curious why the family went to Byram Health Camp in Mt. Kisco NY once they got here in 1925 but more looking for information on the family back in Germany.
Thank you
Tara
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Different regions have different names for the same occupation,
In Northern Germany and Austria a carpenter is a Tischler
In Middle and south Germany a carpenter is a Schreiner
If I understand you correctly you are primarily looking for the ancestors of Johann Georg Goll, and his wife Anna Koberlein
Dave
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I had a look through the Munich address books from 1921 to 1925.
In 1924 and 1925 you have 2 Goll´s both of them Schreiner.
Johann in the Schmiedköchelstrasse 10
Georg in the Mauerkircherstrasse 54
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Munich Address Books 1912 – 1926
Golls that may interest you:
1912 – 1913 / no one that fits
1914 – 1916 / Walburga Goll – Wasch- und Bügelgeschäft (Laundress), Adlzreiterstraße
1917 – 1921 / Walburga Goll – Wasch- und Bügelgeschäft (Laundress), Schmiedköchelstrasse 10
1922 – 1923 / no one that fits
1924 – 1925 / these are the first (and the last) entries for Georg and Johann Goll, both Schreiner
Johann had the same address as Walburga. Schmiedköchelstrasse 10
1926 - no one that fits
Anna Köberlein was a Büglerin / ironer.
Maybe she worked for Walburga and Johann Georg met here there
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If you want the screen shots from the newspapers let me know
Dave
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Don´t know if this is of any relevance but in Bad Kissingen, where Walburga came from, there is still a Carpentry - Schreinerei Goll. They have a 100 year old history which means they were founded around 1918.
Just thought i´d mention it
http://schreinerei-goll.de/
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I take it you want to find the Munich church records.
If you follow the Munchen/Munich church link on this familysearch webpage:
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Munich,_Bavaria,_Germany_Genealogy
it takes you to this webpage:-
https://www.familysearch.org/search/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3AGoll~&collection_id=2780016
If you just enter the surname "Goll" to search for the baptism of the mother:- Mutter: Walburga Goll, Kochin und Backer-meisterstochter, katholisch.
You will see this unique name is listed, which may or may not be the person you're looking for but I didn't completely trawl through the search results:-
Walburga Goll
Deutschland, Bayern, Bistum Augsburg, katholische Kirchenbücher, 1615-1939
Name: Walburga Goll
Event Type: Baptism
Event Place: Kellmünz, Kellmünz an der Iller, Neu-Ulm, Schwaben, Bayern, Deutschland
Birth Date: 12 May 1860
Father's Name: Joseph Goll
Mother's Name: Agnes Prestele
Certificate Number: 13
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Different regions have different names for the same occupation,
In Northern Germany and Austria a carpenter is a Tischler
In Middle and south Germany a carpenter is a Schreiner
If I understand you correctly you are primarily looking for the ancestors of Johann Georg Goll, and his wife Anna Koberlein
Dave
I am a Joiner and worked in Germany for 3 years
Carpenter = Zimmerman
Joiner = Tischler
Cabinet Maker = Schrieber / Schreiner depending on district ..
I worked in Paderborn / Geseke / Frankfurt / Neider Bayern / Lower Bayern / Passau / Stuttgart and Eggenfelden
:)
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Blimey...you are all fabulous! Yes this them...I'm just about in tears!
I don't know how to print what you've sent me from my iPad cause I'm so flustered with the information...lol...
The funny thing is we knew Walburga had the two boys but what I don't get are their names are the same...???? I have a place to go to now thank you for your help this is great...
I will keep you posted with what I find...
You are all so good with all this stuff ...
This has been a 50 year mystery...
😂😂😂
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do you think this lady is related ?
https://gw.geneanet.org/hwember2?n=goll&oc=&p=walburga
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It doesn't appear so...my walburger was born 1860...also she never married the 2 boys were born out of wedlock.
Thanks again...I've just started tracking the info you all have given and I'm already gathering correct info. For example I had the boys names as johann georg (my great grandfather) and his brother as Otto G. Goll...when I added the name George as the middle name I find connections...huge help and again great find!!!!
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This webpage explains why Munchen is mentioned in the documentation you have. It is an archdiocese overseeing many subsidiary diocese - one of the latter being where your ancestors lived:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Munich_and_Freising
If the 1860 birth/baptism of Walburga Goll is correct, then this is the marriage and birth details of her parents.
Deutschland, Bayern, Bistum Augsburg, katholische Kirchenbücher, 1615-1939
Name: Joseph Goll
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 4 Mar 1851
Event Place: Kellmünz, Kellmünz an der Iller, Neu-Ulm, Schwaben, Bayern, Deutschland
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 11 Jan 1817
Father's Name: Christoph Goll
Mother's Name: Franziska Fackler
Spouse's Name: Agnes Prestele
Spouse's Gender: Female
Spouse's Birth Date: 19 Jan 1822
Spouse's Father's Name: Seraphin Prestele
Spouse's Mother's Name: Theres Doerger
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP4B-CBXP
As the book goes back to the 1600s there could be more records of all the different surname providing the families hadn't travelled from another part of the land.
These details are also on the same familysearch film and I see there were more than two babies born to that couple. If you would like to see and take a copy of the filmed pages of the original Munchen RC church book, then you need to visit your local Morman Church family History Centre (the Church of Latter Day Saints).
The shrunk url link: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m8j/
My family are Ev. Lutheran and I'm used to seeing names and occupations of sponsors/witnesses in the church books - some witnesses are relatives and others are people of importance in the community. These people's given names are usually donated to the baby, with the baby's own given name being the one listed next to its surname. For instance my own gf given name was Herman but was baptised with two donated names: recorded as Franz Jacob Herman. VERY awkward in early years when searching records for Herman but search facilities only searched for the first name of Franz
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Rena
Again I am blown away with the wealth of information you and others are able to retrieve. I can't thank you enough.
With this latest information I do have some questions....if what you say is true and I understand you correctly. If my german ancestors were given these additional or what we call here in America "baptismal" names, if I don't know what they are I could be searching forever?
For example my great grandfathers name was Johann Georg Goll ~ he always went be Georg or George here in the states. If he was given two other names and all his German records are under those names I don't know of I might never find additional records true?
Also, I was given a lead about a carpenter family in Bad Kissingen that just celebrated their 100th year. They list Andreas Goll and Albin Goll as the, I guess 2nd and 3rd generation owners. Is there a way to find out if they are related to my great grandfather as he too was a carpenter in Bad Kissingen.
When I went on the LDS site I'm only able to see the family tree info not the documents. I will have to plan a trip to visit a family center to view the documents at some time in the near future. Until then is there a "free" site to view documents in German. My mother is with me and she can read and write german. This branch is her direct lineage.
Again thank you so much and look forward to anything else you might come across. Just wondering about the Koberlein's? Anything on that side regarding the 5 sisters and going back from there?
Tara
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Rena
I just went to the LDS link...I see what you mean about the other children and the witnesses. I counted at least 6 children if I read the list correctly. It's also interesting because my grandmother her name was Theresa and I see one of the witnesses was also named that. She was born in Munich in 1913.
Now her sister my great aunt was born Louise S. Goll b. 1911 in Bad Kissingen is there anyway to find out her information I believe the actual spelling of her name was Luise S. and I just wonder if the S. stands for Seraphin or some variation of that. She never told anyone her middle name.
Also, if the children were born out of wedlock, would the Archdiocese still record their births? For Johann Georg Goll and Otto George Goll? I also note that Luise and Theresa Goll were also born out of wedlock even though their parents eventually married in 1921.
All very exciting and interesting.
Many thanks
Tara
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Genealogy in Germany is a money earner for the country and you won't find many online databases, which is understandable as it brings in money for the countries archives and wages to professional genealogists. I found my ancestors by directly applying to the church archives and from then on I viewed micro fiche in my local Morman church in England at a very low cost. i was lucky that WWII hadn't destroyed 19th century property and people count = their census - so I was able to track my family in Hannover every year from 1851. Unfortunately I have not been able to find mention of any such records for your area of interest, which suggests there might not be any..
One old custom was that family names were carried over to the next generation and this might be the case for your ancestors. This was particularly true if the family were in the farming industry and the farm was handed down, so you might find that a husband of a farm heiress changed his surname to that of his bride.
The first son was named after the father's father
The second son was named after the mother's father
The third son was named after the father
The fourth son was named after the father's eldest brother
The first daughter after the mother's mother
The second daughter after the father's mother
The third daughter after the mother
The fourth daughter after the mother's eldest sister
because my ancestor followed this custom I notified the German archivist of my ancestor's birth year & that his parents could be Henry and Sophia, which turned out to be the case; additionally the less time an archivist searches for information the cheaper it is on your pocket.
I thought my ancestor was the oldest child as he was born during the first year of his parents marriage, but like you, discovered there was another handful born to the same parents out of wedlock but who lived with their maternal grandparents. From the census it seemed the parents lived in accommodation provided for single people. My understanding is that this wasn't uncommon and probably had something to do with marrying when a family house became available.
The Catholic church will have all the information whether the child was baptised in or out of wedlock. The Catholic churches also recorded "confirmations". I have some parents who lived in a Lutheren parish, had their children baptised in the Lutheren church, then seemed to have saved up to make a long journey to the catholic Hildesheim church where they had five children confirmed at the same time, the oldest child was 10, the youngest one year old. The Catholic archivist informed me that this was a usual occurrence - e.g. the Catholic church allowed this if the father worked in a Lutheran parish.
I suggest you try to find other people researching the same lines and you might get lucky by viewing the German GEDBAS website - on the webpage simply fill in the surname, or even just fill in the place they lived which will give umpteen surnames living in the same village/town, and view the results. Here is a meta-engine search facility for you to play around with which brings up several websites :
Click on GEDBAS then Enter your surname and/or village
You could also try "Auswanderer" search results.
http://meta.genealogy.net/
I see there is a micro fiche of migration of auswanderen fro your area of interest: When a person wanted to migrate they had to ask the town elders. Their names would be written up on the civic centre/town hall door for about three weeks which gave a chance for anyone else in the neighbourhood to come forward and state why the person shouldn't be allowed tomigrate, e.g. he owes me money, or (s)he is my apprentice and not allowed to leave. The information on the official documents usually gives name of the main applicant and his/her abode plus names of accompanying family members and their relationship with the applicant.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1135289?availability=Family%20History%20Library
I haven't done any German research for well over a decade and am not knowledgeable about modern sources. Hopefully other rootschatters will come along and provide more sources of information for you.
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Wow! This explains how I could have original documents and was never able to locate anything. Again thanks for the information you have retrieved. Guess I'm going to have to make a trip to the mormen temple here.
Well at least I've gotten further with your assistance and thanks for the additional information. It has been extremely helpful!
Happy searches and again a ton of thanks!