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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: rebeccaclaire86 on Friday 22 June 18 13:05 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm looking for a bit of guidance with research that touches on a branch of my family that seems to have held a coat of arms, and I think this is probably the best place for these queries. Please do excuse any daft questions, my ancestors were mainly ag labs and this is completely new ground for me!
As I started typing this it got quite long, and I realised I actually had quite a few questions, so I've numbered them ;D
1) My branch of the Popham family (from East Quantoxhead in Somerset, before that I believe from Lynton in Devon) seems to descend from the line of a Popham family that is featured in the Visitations of Devon and the Visitations of Somerset. The Visitations of Somerset describe the Popham coat of arms for the same family as 'argent on a chief Gules two bucks' heads cabossed or' and the Devon visitations describe it as 'argent on a chief gules a bezant between two bucks' heads cabossed.' Did coats of arms evolve over time? Also, there is another branch of the Popham family (I'm not sure how they link to my branch) who features in the Visitations who has a very similar but slightly different coat of arms. Did different branches of the same family have similar branches to reflect that?
2) One of my more recent Popham ancestors in 1725 used a seal on a property document that was described as 'armorial, three chevrons, not determined.' Do seals link to families?
3) I understand that the College of Arms can research for a (fairly large) fee, and that's something I might pursue at some point. Do they hold more information about the family from a genealogical standpoint beyond what is in the visitations? I.e. might such research potentially tell me how my Popham families link together?
4) Could families hold multiple coats of arms? One branch that married into the Pophams, the Berry family, have a listing in the Visitations (link is https://archive.org/stream/VisitationOfTheCountyOfDevonInTheYear1620/VisitationCountyDevon_St.George_424pgs63179646#page/n37/mode/2up/search/berry (https://archive.org/stream/VisitationOfTheCountyOfDevonInTheYear1620/VisitationCountyDevon_St.George_424pgs63179646#page/n37/mode/2up/search/berry) as I'm struggling to describe what I mean coherently) that describes multiple coats of arms and family names. Various pedigrees online name these families as ancestors, but I've not seen any sources for this yet.
5) Is there any kind of finding resource for when you have a description of a coat of arms to determine which family it belonged to? The Berry family's visitation listing above has several coats of arms described, and some of them such as the Bolkwort family I can find no information online about beyond a few pedigrees of the Popham family that people have posted, and think it's probably a very bad transcription of a family name! Would be interested to know how you go about finding the family name that belongs to a coat of arms.
6) (This is more of a general question than a Heraldry question, but as it ties in with the time period I hope you'll excuse it!) Beyond the visitations and various books and histories on Google Books, what resources are useful for genealogy before parish registers began? And are there any good books on researching in this time period? I had a look in my trusted copy of Ancestral Trails but couldn't find much about researching earlier on.
Any information would be very gratefully received, I'm very out of my comfort zone with this research, but eager to learn more!
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Wow. Okay, let me see if I can help with your questions.
1. Different branches of a family will often have similar but slightly modified coats of arms. Your example of Popham with a bezant between the buck's heads on the chief is a good example of that.
2. Seals generally link to individuals, and may be passed down through family generations. One thing to be careful of, though, is that I have seen a number of cases, especially in the 18th Century, where the seal used by someone on a document is actually a seal borrowed from someone else for that document. Sort of a "I don't have a seal for this document, may I borrow yours?" kind of thing. Just so that you are aware that this is something that happened.
3. The College of Arms may have more genealogical information than appears in other more public records, but the only way to know is to approach them and ask. Which, of course, may cost you something in fees.
4. Yes and no. In the examples you have of Berry, in each shield the Berry arms are those in the upper left square of the shield. The other coats of arms contained on the shields are those of heraldic heiresses who have married into the Berry family at one time or another. An heraldic heiress is a woman whose father has a coat of arms, but the father had only daughters (who do not normally inherit their father's coat of arms) and no sons (who do normally so inherit). In such cases, the sons of these daughters may quarter their father's arms (in the upper left and lower right corners of the shield) with their maternal grandfather's arms (in the upper right and lower left corners of the shield). This can happen more than once in a family's descent, and other arms may be added to the shield, replacing one or another of the quarters, and even increasing the number of quarters beyond four. A more detailed description of how this all works can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartering_(heraldry)
5. There are a few armorials (listings of coats of arms arranged by surname) and ordinaries (listings of coats of arms arranged by the colors and charges on the shield) available. The most commonly used armorial is Burke's "General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales". Burke's has only entry for Bulkwort: Bulkwort (quartered by Berge, of Croscombe, Visitation of Devon, 1620). Sable a hand lying fessways within a bordure engrailed argent.
6. I am certain that others will answer with other possible sources, but you have already discovered that there aren't a lot of sources for genealogical research before the introduction of parish records. For tracing people in the upper classes (knights and above), there are the various peerages (Burke's Peerage, Baronage, and Knightage being the best-known but hardly the only one available). Searches through land records may sometimes yield fruit for you. If you are looking for a family with a coat of arms that goes way back, the four-volume set "Dictionary of British Arms: Medieval Ordinary" might help. Though it is organized as an ordinary, there is an index of surnames in the back of each volume. I checked, and didn't find Bulkwort, but Volume does list a name that may be close, "Bolkeworth, Sr William de," who bore the arms: Or a lion rampant purpure collared argent.
Anyway, I hope that all of this is of at least some assistance to you.
David
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Have you taken a look at the Somerset Wills Abstracts in Find My Past?
They have quite a few Pophams. You might just strike lucky and find mention of one of your known Pophams.
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Just a couple of points.
As Lily M says, wills can be a hue source of information, if you can find them.
Don't forget to search on the National Archives Discovery site, who hold records going back hundreds and hundreds of years.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/advanced-search
As for the college of arms looking doing research, I have found them to be a complete waste of time. to put it bluntly!
I contacted them over six months ago with a query, and am still waiting to hear back. I have given up. What a way to run an organisation!
AND if they ever did get round to doing anything, it would cost an arm and a leg.
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As for the college of arms looking doing research, I have found them to be a complete waste of time. to put it bluntly!
I contacted them over six months ago with a query, and am still waiting to hear back. I have given up. What a way to run an organisation!
AND if they ever did get round to doing anything, it would cost an arm and a leg.
My experience with the College of Arms has been different than yours, and I have always found the heralds and secretaries there to be very nice folks who can be very helpful.
How did you contact them? Email? Regular mail? Are you sure that they received your inquiry? Have you to tried to follow up with them?
David
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Yes I contacted them through their webpage, got a reply to say they were very busy. waited a couple of months and contacted them again through their web page and got another reply to say they were VERY busy. That was 6 months ago. ???
(can't you tell I'm really mad!!)
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A couple of years ago I just walked in from the street with a query. The staff were very friendly and helpful.
I got the impression though, that a lot of the family history traced by their researchers is no different, or better, than what we all do here.
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I seem to remember that there is only 1 herald on duty at any one time?
And that queries have to go through the herald on duty.
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Not sure if it covers what you want but you might like to investigate "Early Modern Genealogy" by Paul Chambers.
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I seem to remember that there is only 1 herald on duty at any one time?
And that queries have to go through the herald on duty.
Each herald in the College is rotated through a position called "Herald in Waiting," whose job (for a week at a time, if I am recalling it correctly) is to respond to all inquiries that come to the College that week. All of the other heralds are generally still there and "on duty" working with their clients, they are just not the ones who receive incoming inquiries (until it is their turn again to be Herald in Waiting).
David
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I meant to come back to this - sorry for the belated response! Thank you for all the replies, I think I understand it a little better. Thanks for the book suggestions, I'll definitely have a look at those!
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Rebecca Claire, with regards to your question 5, searching on the internet for all or part of the blazon, the heraldic description of the coat of arms might lead you somewhere. Especially if you select 'images' from the results. You might have to try this in several different ways to find something meaningful. Searching for the more obscure words is likely to be more productive.
Martin
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Hello Rebeccaclaire
Regarding Crests, Fairbairns Book of Crests Volumes 1 & 2 are interesting, the researcher needs both Volumes.
Volume 1 with Descriptions and part of the Plates Index
archive.org
Volume 2 with other part of Plates Index and Plates of the Crests
https://archive.org/stream/FairbairnsBookOfCrestsV2#page/n29/mode/2up/search/Coe
In the Plates Index the first number denotes the Plate and second number relates to the Crest.
1) A Coat of Arms did not really evolve within a family for change sake. A Coat of Arms were usually granted to a particular named person. (See 4. below).
Dad said many were granted for a particular favourable Act to the King or Queen. One in Newcastle I read about was granted Arms for Guarding Parliament.
2) "One of my more recent Popham ancestors in 1725 used a seal on a property document that was described as 'armorial, three chevrons, not determined.' Do seals link to families?"
The Seal is only a part of Arms. I have seen Seals in the Crest (in the Arms above the Shield).
Seals on their own might not be enough, as differing family surnames had the same Seals. See Fairbairns (both Volumes).
3) For the first 200 to 300 years backward from yourself, you might as well have the fun and interest of going back yourself.
Have you considered an appointment at the College Arms to do some research? Keep all your copy Certificates, Documents, Wills, etc., linking each generation backward from yourself.
4) "Could families hold multiple coats of arms? ... "
Coats of Arms were designed for a particular holder, to whom they were Granted.
If the College of Arms, Grant Arms to a Cadet in the same family (see Cadency), these Arms usually vary to reflect that they are not the original holder and will have different marks in the Coat of Arms.
5) You will only find the Coat of Arms, and if Arms were Granted to a particular line ancestor and the person to whom they were Granted, by working your own personal family line backward.
Not everyone in an Armorial family can quite make a link, perhaps a Sibling of a direct line Ancestor was Granted the Arms.
The College of Arms (never been there), must have numerous Volumes of Indexes and Coloured Illustrations of Arms Granted to individuals and submitted family lines.
I notice Rootschatters refer to Wills, that mention Arms and the original beneficiary informed the College of Arms and if Granted, Notices appeared in the London Gazette.
6) Other sources - Victoria County History VCH (published about 100 years ago), can be a useful source as they give references to documents, which you can trace in Archives.
Sometimes you can find people mentioned in:-
Manors, Land Owners and records of Lords of the Manor, Estate Surveys, Rentals, Accounts, Deeds, Leases, Tithe records, Old Maps and Schedules, Fee Farm & other types of Rent, Tax, Land Enclosures, Court's Baron, Manor Court Rolls, Marriage Settlements, Parliamentary Acts, Court Documents, Exchequer cases, and the like.
Many Lords owned land in many counties and their collections today are spread over several County Archives, Museums, University Special Collections and National Archives and National and Principal Libraries, some are still in private hands.
Mark