RootsChat.Com

General => The Common Room => Topic started by: JewellersGranddaughter on Saturday 23 June 18 02:37 BST (UK)

Title: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Saturday 23 June 18 02:37 BST (UK)
Hello,

I've spent the past five months trying to find a female ancestor, but with no luck at all. Here is the story: I had my DNA tested, and am corresponding with my 4th/5th cousin (the DNA company says he's my 5th cousin, but a genealogist friend says he's my 4th cousin). My link to my cousin is this mystery woman who may or may not have been born in Bermuda. All he knows is that her surname was Scott. My Mother was born in Birmingham, and her maternal grandmother's maiden name was Scott. The mystery lady Scott met a man in Bermuda, and had two sons with him, circa 1865. We do not think they were married, especially as it was a mixed-race relationship, and I would imagine that marriage would not have been legal in Bermuda in this situation at the time (?). His name was Sam; he appears to have taken Miss Scott's surname, as did her sons. The sons, Charles and Stuart, were born in Bermuda around 1865, Charles being the oldest.

In 1909, Stuart/Stewart (my cousin states his name as "Stuart") emigrated to the U.S.: Stewart Scott   Immigration   26 Aug 1909 Hamilton, Bermuda   Male   41   Married   Great Britain, African   1868 (source: New York Passenger Arrivals...(Ellis Island), 1892-1924, FamilySearch.org. I also found a similar record for either Stu or Charles that stated his mother' s birthplace was Bermuda, but now I can't find it.

I think their father, Sam, lived to be at least 50, judging by a photo of him.

So, am I looking for the brother of my either 3rd or 4th Great-Grandfather, and that brother's daughter, who either was not married or was married and used her maiden name of Scott? When she had her first child with Sam, I am assuming that she was at least 15 years old, which would circa-date her to being born in 1850. Of course, she could be older, even much older.

I can't find anything in the sparse online Bermuda records. There were quite a few Scotts in Barbados and Jamaica, though those island are far away from Bermuda, but I wonder if she originally came from there (or England, in the Birmingham area), and moved to Bermuda.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 23 June 18 03:33 BST (UK)
Can you give your great grandma s name date of birth and anything you may know about her family please .

And of course any birth dates your DNA, match has of nearest descendants of Sam and Ms Scott.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Saturday 23 June 18 03:41 BST (UK)
My GR-GR Grandmother:  Edith Frances Smart (born Scott), born 1884, Birmingham, England. Her father: Alfred William Scott, b. 1861.
Her Grandfather: *William Ganderton Scott, b. 1832.
Her great-grandfather: *William Jesson Scott, 1809-1886
Great-Great-Grandfather: *William OR John Scott, 1791-
(*=I am not 100% certain. There are so many Williams, then Alfred Williams, then William Alfreds!)

Children of William Ganderton Scott: Alfred William, b.1861
                 William Jesson Scott: Walter, 1833, John, 1837, George, 1839, Eliza, 1842, Henry, 1846, Ellen, 1849, Thomas, 1851.
                  William or John Scott: Samuel, 1797, Benjamin, 1806, Ann, 1808, William Jesson, 1809.

I think the secret lies with the daughters of William Jesson Scott or William Ganderton Scott, but I can't place them in Bermuda.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 23 June 18 03:59 BST (UK)
I found a Stewart stephan Scott
Travelling from trinidad in 1947 nearest relative given as Mrs Quesmal address seems to be Oilfields

On same page are Rodney Scott b1929 and Janet mary doreen Scott  who give their nearest relative as Stuart stephan Scott in British West indies
Could they be his children ?


https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894K-M7YQ?i=275&cc=1923888
# they are all described as white
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 23 June 18 04:13 BST (UK)
Here's Charles Scott and wife Eleanor in 1930 new Jersey

Living with married daughter eleanor OBlInis

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4FJ-4JL

( neice Margaret Lowell aged 12)
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 23 June 18 05:15 BST (UK)
Alice Scott b1867  seems to be sister or sister in law  to  Charles connection thru Lovell /Lowell family

Eleanor O Blenis has neice 
Margaret Lowell age 9

1920 census Alice+ daughters all born Bermuda
granddaughters including Margaret Lovell aged 2 s
 all described as mulatto
 
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GRJN-NJZ?i=32&cc=1488411

Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 23 June 18 05:39 BST (UK)
this looks like a family group at Ellis Island in 1909

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T3-T3PG-G?i=308&cc=1368704

Mrs Marion EASTON  age 37 B Bermuda African Black  contact in Bermuda  Stuart Scott (brother)
Robert Easton age 5   ditto  contact Stuart Scott (uncle)
Stewart SCOTT age 41  ditto. Contact Mrs S Scott (wife)

so Marion would have been born abt 1872 and this Stewart about 1868  Which would fit with them being siblings of Alice.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 23 June 18 05:41 BST (UK)
marriage of a son of Marion's  https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Amarion~%20%2Bsurname%3AScott~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Abermuda~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1870-1875~

so her husband's name was William

Is there a marriage in Bermuda for Marion Scott and William Easton that might name her parents?
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 23 June 18 05:52 BST (UK)
I think they are giving stuarts name as contact rho he is travelling with them

Alice  immigration date was 1910 so she could well have been Mrs s Scott

Do we know if the patriarch Sam also travelled to USA ?

Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 23 June 18 05:59 BST (UK)
Here's a link to search Bermuda records

http://cdm15212.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/

Yes we need to work backwards to find Charles Stuart (Alice  )  's  father Samuel  and their English mother
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Saturday 23 June 18 07:39 BST (UK)
I don't know if this will help you?
Robert James Scott
Living in Woolwich, London
Birth Year of 1848
Was married in 1873
Was born in Bermuda pre-1852
Could be a relative of your mystery lady?

Robert James Scott
England and Wales Census, 1871
Robert James Scott
Gillingham, Kent, England
23
Single
Corporal Royal Engineer
Birth Year (Estimated)   1848
Birthplace   Bermuda

Marriages Dec 1873
SCOTT    Robert James        W.Ham    4a   32
WATTS           Mary Ann                   W.Ham    4a   32

son Walter James Scott born 1877

Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 23 June 18 08:12 BST (UK)
It’s the 1930 US census (Passaic, NJ) in which Charles Scott’s parents’ birthplaces are said to be Bermuda.  He is 57 in 1930, wife Eleanor (also Bermudian) is 54, and they married at 18 and 15.  He immigrated in 1908 and she in 1921.

(I now see that brigidmac has already linked this upthread).
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 23 June 18 08:42 BST (UK)
You say your Scott research traces back from Edith Frances Scott b “1884”, Birmingham.

In fact Edith Frances Scott’s birth was registered Sep qtr 1883 Birmingham with mother’s maiden name Carter. 

Her parents were Alfred William Scott and Sarah Eliza Carter, married Dec qtr 1882 Aston.  Do you have that marriage record for his father’s details?
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 23 June 18 08:51 BST (UK)
Subject to that marriage certificate, it looks as though Alfred William Scott was born in Birmingham in 1860 (rather than 1861 as you have it) - birth registration Dec qtr 1860 with mother’s maiden name Harlow.

His parents were William Scott and Rosina Juliette Harlow, who married at Aston on 10 October 1858.  William was 26, an office clerk of Aston Manor, son of George Scott, architect.

William looks likely to have died (or left) early on, as Rosina went on to remarry to Albert Edward Berks in West Bromwich, 1864.  Alfred appears to have been the only child born to William & Rosina.

Anyway - from what I have seen so far there doesn’t seem to be a long line of Williams, as was suggested earlier ???
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 23 June 18 09:12 BST (UK)
So  we now need censuses to show all the siblings

Could it be a male Scott who went to Bermuda  not a mystery woman
Or

A bermudan man coming to England  and fathering a Scott child

I get the feeling roosters may beven able to join the dots for you  .
Avm I hadn't noticed their ages at marriage. ..I wonder how common it was for 15 year olds to marry .
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 23 June 18 11:53 BST (UK)
William Ganderton Scott b 1832 seems to be a different person - son of William, a gun furniture filer (and took on the same occupation).  No sign of his middle name in records post his 1837 baptism.

This William Scott married Charlotte Devorex at St Martin, Birmingham on 11 August 1851 (as Charlotte Deveraux, 20, servant, she had been a visitor to his family in the 1851 census). They and their children can be traced through subsequent census records.

1861 for this family: RG9/2134/100/39 - children Henry & William.
1871 for this family: RG10/3097/98/1 - children Henry, William, John, Charlotte, Thomas.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 23 June 18 12:25 BST (UK)
Back to the William Scott who was the husband of Rosina and father of Alfred William - b abt 1832, son (according to his marriage entry) of George Scott, architect.

Unfortunately we don’t have a birthplace for this William.  In 1861 he is not with Rosina - she is enumerated as married, but is with 5mo old Alfred and her parents Isaac and Ann Harlow at the White Swan in Birmingham. 

RG9/2168/57/29

So, William could have been from anywhere.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Saturday 23 June 18 21:18 BST (UK)
I can't find any records regarding a marriage for Marion Scott, at least in Bermuda. I don't know what happened to Sam, sadly. The trail for Sam and my ancestor, Miss Scott, seems to end with the birth of  their sons, Charles and Stuart Scott. I don't know what Sam's real surname was--he seems to have adopted "Scott" as his surname after the love affair with my ancestor, Miss Scott, and their children took "Scott" as their surname, as well. I wonder if Sam used another surname later? Judging by a photo of him, I'd say he looks about 50+, so he must have lived until at least 50. At any rate, I can't find anything about him anywhere.  In fact, if my cousin hadn't told me about him, I wouldn't have known this story. I emailed him last night about Marion Scott. I'll let you know what he says.


Thank you for all of your help!
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Saturday 23 June 18 21:21 BST (UK)
Back to the William Scott who was the husband of Rosina and father of Alfred William - b abt 1832, son (according to his marriage entry) of George Scott, architect.

Unfortunately we don’t have a birthplace for this William.  In 1861 he is not with Rosina - she is enumerated as married, but is with 5mo old Alfred and her parents Isaac and Ann Harlow at the White Swan in Birmingham. 

RG9/2168/57/29

So, William could have been from anywhere.

I noticed that; I fond that Rosina Juliette Harlow (what a pretty name!) was living with the Harlows, her parents, but "Berks" is a surname. I'm wondering if William died?
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 23 June 18 21:54 BST (UK)
Presumably William was still alive in 1861 (Rosina Scott is “married”, rather than “widowed”, in that census).

It’s the later censuses when she’s Berks, having remarried in 1864 (see reply #13).
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 23 June 18 23:00 BST (UK)
 
I can only find one George Scott architect in 1851 & 1861 censuses.  He was George Gilbert SCOTT b 1811.  He was knighted in 1872 and died in 1878  (Wikipedia)

But he didn't get married (To Caroline OLDRID) until 1838

Sons born to them seem well documented with no sign of visits to Bermuda
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 23 June 18 23:41 BST (UK)
I don't know if this will help you?
Robert James Scott
Living in Woolwich, London
Birth Year of 1848
Was married in 1873
Was born in Bermuda pre-1852
Could be a relative of your mystery lady?

Robert James Scott
England and Wales Census, 1871
Robert James Scott
Gillingham, Kent, England
23
Single
Corporal Royal Engineer
Birth Year (Estimated)   1848
Birthplace   Bermuda

Marriages Dec 1873
SCOTT    Robert James        W.Ham    4a   32
WATTS           Mary Ann                   W.Ham    4a   32

son Walter James Scott born 1877

This man's attestation documents are dated at Westminster 11 Jan 1862 when he was age 14 - so he might be around in 1861?   
He has a Fresh Complexion, Grey Eyes and Brown Hair
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 24 June 18 00:00 BST (UK)
Here's Charles Scott and wife Eleanor in 1930 new Jersey

Living with married daughter eleanor OBlInis

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4FJ-4JL

( neice Margaret Lowell aged 12)

Regarding the Lowell/Lovell link: Familysearch has a record of a Jennie Scott and Charles Lovell, both born Bermuda, having a daughter (no first name, surname Scott, “black”) born 25 Feb 1926 and died 2 March 1926, Manhattan.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 24 June 18 00:08 BST (UK)
1910 Marion Easton is a widow and in hospital
Says she has 7 living children (out of 15)
parent's birth place recorded as Bermuda, and then that has been crossed out and it seems to say Atlantic Is  - is there such a place?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RV5-47V?i=24&cc=1727033
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Sunday 24 June 18 00:14 BST (UK)
Here's Charles Scott and wife Eleanor in 1930 new Jersey

Living with married daughter eleanor OBlInis

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4FJ-4JL

( neice Margaret Lowell aged 12)

Regarding the Lowell/Lovell link: Familysearch has a record of a Jennie Scott and Charles Lovell, both born Bermuda, having a daughter (no first name, surname Scott, “black”) born 25 Feb 1926 and died 2 March 1926, Manhattan.
Jennie and Charles Lovell are part of this family. I can't find the records right now, but I know they were.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Sunday 24 June 18 00:20 BST (UK)
1910 Marion Easton is a widow and in hospital
Says she has 7 living children (out of 15)
parent's birth place recorded as Bermuda, and then that has been crossed out and it seems to say Atlantic Is  - is there such a place?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RV5-47V?i=24&cc=1727033

I wondered about that. "Atlantic Islands", perhaps, but I have never heard of that.  I know that a woman in the Scott/Lovell family around the turn of the century may have been born in Barbados, and it was noted in my cousin's family tree as "Bermuda or Barbados?". However, I don't think it was she. I can't look, as I think it was on Ancestry--which I don't subscribe to; I use it at work, and I won't be in until Monday. Sorry for the vague "I know that...." citations!  I do have a good memory for these things. I just can't go back and cite them here right now.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 24 June 18 00:21 BST (UK)
Jennie Lovell died in Manhattan on 6 March 1926 aged 36 (four days after the death of her newborn daughter).

Her parents are named as Charles Scott and Eleanor Parker.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 24 June 18 00:30 BST (UK)
1915 census: Newark, N.J.

Charles Lovel born Jun 1882 Bermuda
Jennie Lovel born Mar 1890 Bermuda
Vivian Lovel (F), born Oct 1910 New Jersey
Charles Lovel, born May 1913 New Jersey
James Lovel, born Feb 1914 New Jersey
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Sunday 24 June 18 00:32 BST (UK)
Jennie Lovell died in Manhattan on 6 March 1926 aged 36 (four days after the death of her newborn daughter).

Her parents are named as Charles Scott and Eleanor Parker.

Yes, that's our Charles and his wife.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 24 June 18 00:42 BST (UK)

I can only find one George Scott architect in 1851 & 1861 censuses.  He was George Gilbert SCOTT b 1811.  He was knighted in 1872 and died in 1878  (Wikipedia)

But he didn't get married (To Caroline OLDRID) until 1838

Sons born to them seem well documented with no sign of visits to Bermuda

George Scott (whoever he was) really is key in all of this.  Until the right Scott line is established in the UK there is no way of establishing a link with whatever went on in Bermuda.  Unfortunately without a birthplace for his son William it’s hard to make progress on this. 
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 24 June 18 00:44 BST (UK)
on 12 Dec 1832 at St Mary Magdalene,Woolwich, Kent is a baptism for William born 6 Nov 1832, son of Ann and George SCOTT.  Ann is in the poorhouse. George is a Sailor

The matriarch in Bermuda has to be a woman from William (who married Rosina) son of George's generation doesn't it. 

This George could have fathered a daughter in port, and that would fit with Stuart Stephen etc saying both parents were born in Bermuda.

Added
(But you would have thought in that case that the Bermuda family wouldn't know Scott was the surname)

Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 24 June 18 00:49 BST (UK)
William Scott b 1832 Woolwich is traceable through the censuses in Portsmouth & the Isle of Wight until his death in Portsmouth in 1906 - I don’t think he is our man, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 24 June 18 00:49 BST (UK)
I'd like to find more about Robert James, but the image for his marriage isn't online (not that I can see anyway) He could be a brother of William?
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Sunday 24 June 18 03:57 BST (UK)
Subject to that marriage certificate, it looks as though Alfred William Scott was born in Birmingham in 1860 (rather than 1861 as you have it) - birth registration Dec qtr 1860 with mother’s maiden name Harlow.

His parents were William Scott and Rosina Juliette Harlow, who married at Aston on 10 October 1858.  William was 26, an office clerk of Aston Manor, son of George Scott, architect.

William looks likely to have died (or left) early on, as Rosina went on to remarry to Albert Edward Berks in West Bromwich, 1864.  Alfred appears to have been the only child born to William & Rosina.

Anyway - from what I have seen so far there doesn’t seem to be a long line of Williams, as was suggested earlier ???

In my family tree, I had a question mark by William Scott or George Scott (father of William Ganderton Scott, b.1832).  So, it seems that Wm. Ganderton Scott's father was George Scott, not William? 

As to the many Williams: if Wm. Ganderton Scott's father had been William, there would've been five Williams in a row. I also encountered many William Scotts born in the Birmingham area in my research. That's what I was referring to.  Now, it's Hannah.  ::)
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 24 June 18 04:19 BST (UK)
see reply #15
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 24 June 18 08:43 BST (UK)
Yes - as I said at reply #15, William Ganderton Scott (whose father was another William) seems to be a red herring. He did exist, but is not the person who married Rosina (his wife was Charlotte).

Rosina’s husband was a different William Scott, son of George.  This William born c1832 (according to his marriage details) was the same sort of age as William Ganderton Scott - hence, presumably, the confusion.  However, his birthplace is presently unknown - he may not have originated in Birmingham.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Sunday 24 June 18 11:43 BST (UK)
This one also appears in a search
Jeannette A Scott born 1850 in Bermuda West Indies REG1 Gro Regimental Birth Indices (1761 To 1924)
So her father would have been a soldier with the surname Scott...

Jennie Scott married to Charles Lovel (maybe?)

Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 24 June 18 12:18 BST (UK)
Her father was with the 42nd regiment.

Jennie Lovel was born 1890
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Sunday 24 June 18 12:26 BST (UK)
Yes so Jeanette Scott is not Jennie Lovel
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Wednesday 27 June 18 03:09 BST (UK)
Possible children of George Scott (born 1809), and siblings of William Scott (born 1832)???

Walter Scott, 1833
John Scott, 1837
George Scott, 1839
Eliza Scott, 1842
Henry Scott, 1846
Ellen Scott, 1849
Thomas Scott, 1851

(All dates may be off a bit. It seems that the dates I find in FamilySearch.org often are off a year compared to your sources.)
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: Jomot on Wednesday 27 June 18 03:54 BST (UK)
1910 Marion Easton is a widow and in hospital
Says she has 7 living children (out of 15)
parent's birth place recorded as Bermuda, and then that has been crossed out and it seems to say Atlantic Is  - is there such a place?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RV5-47V?i=24&cc=1727033

Some of this information has already been provided on another forum.  There is another 1910 record for Marion in NJ with her children:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MKBG-162

William Easton died 8 Feb 1910 (see FindAGrave - noted as aged 39, husband of Marion) and Marion married Walter E Davis in 1913.

1920 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M4YZ-W9H
1930 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4FV-9G4

New Jersey Marriage Index for Marion Easton & Walter E Davis:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m9n/
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: mckha489 on Wednesday 27 June 18 06:07 BST (UK)
Possible children of George Scott (born 1809), and siblings of William Scott (born 1832)???

Walter Scott, 1833
John Scott, 1837
George Scott, 1839
Eliza Scott, 1842
Henry Scott, 1846
Ellen Scott, 1849
Thomas Scott, 1851

(All dates may be off a bit. It seems that the dates I find in FamilySearch.org often are off a year compared to your sources.)

is this from a census?
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: Jomot on Wednesday 27 June 18 16:10 BST (UK)
New Jersey Marriage Index for Marion Easton & Walter E Davis:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m9n/

I have no idea what information is on New Jersey marriage records, but I have several marriages from other US states which name both parents of the bride and the groom.  If Marion is sister to Charles and Stuart then perhaps your best bet would be to obtain a copy of this marriage from the New Jersey State Archives?

Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Wednesday 27 June 18 17:18 BST (UK)

Yes, it's from the England and Wales Census, 1851:
Possible children of George Scott (born 1809), and siblings of William Scott (born 1832)???

Walter Scott, 1833
John Scott, 1837
George Scott, 1839
Eliza Scott, 1842
Henry Scott, 1846
Ellen Scott, 1849
Thomas Scott, 1851

(All dates may be off a bit. It seems that the dates I find in FamilySearch.org often are off a year compared to your sources.)

is this from a census?
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Wednesday 27 June 18 17:53 BST (UK)
So  we now need censuses to show all the siblings

Could it be a male Scott who went to Bermuda  not a mystery woman
Or

A bermudan man coming to England  and fathering a Scott child

I get the feeling roosters may beven able to join the dots for you  .
Avm I hadn't noticed their ages at marriage. ..I wonder how common it was for 15 year olds to marry .

As far as we know, Sam was always in Bermuda up to that point. The story is that he met my female ancestor, fell in love, and they had two sons, Charles and Stuart.  My feeling is that they were at least in their 20's. Just a feeling, maybe because I wonder if she were on her own, and not under parental control, possibly a young widow? Back then, I would imagine that parents would not be happy that their daughter bore a child out of wedlock, so I wonder how that happened again (possibly twice, if Marion Scott was a sibling; see the other posts)?  I think that the parents would have kept her from him, possibly shipping her to England to stay with family. Also, we don't think they were married. I personally don't think they were. As of 1861, the punishment in Bermuda for a Caucasian woman bearing a black child was whipping, so would their marriage be legal in Bermuda in 1865, when their first child was born? (I read that online somewhere, but can't remember the source). Now, in the U.S., where I live, some states have antiquated laws that are rarely enforced : New York State has a very old law that states that adultery is illegal--but it's rarely enforced (or half the state would probably be doing jail time!  ;D). So, perhaps the Bermuda law was an antiquated law that was not enforced (?)
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Thursday 28 June 18 18:19 BST (UK)

I can only find one George Scott architect in 1851 & 1861 censuses.  He was George Gilbert SCOTT b 1811.  He was knighted in 1872 and died in 1878  (Wikipedia)

But he didn't get married (To Caroline OLDRID) until 1838

Sons born to them seem well documented with no sign of visits to Bermuda

I can't find the parents of George Scott, born (circa) 1809. I wonder if he was not born in Birmingham, England.  I think my Mother's family have a northern England link. I found John Scott--1 in Birstall, York, and John Scott, in
Findon, Sussex.

George Scott (whoever he was) really is key in all of this.  Until the right Scott line is established in the UK there is no way of establishing a link with whatever went on in Bermuda.  Unfortunately without a birthplace for his son William it’s hard to make progress on this.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 28 June 18 20:39 BST (UK)
Please could you point us to the 1851 census you’re relying on - what is the birthplace of your George Scott b c 1809 and where is he in 1851?  Is he an architect or similar?
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: LizzieL on Friday 29 June 18 09:46 BST (UK)


His parents were William Scott and Rosina Juliette Harlow, who married at Aston on 10 October 1858.  William was 26, an office clerk of Aston Manor, son of George Scott, architect.



Been through the 1841 for a William of right sort of age with (presumed) father George (architect).
Closest is in Peeblesshire Scotland - George's occupation is Mason J (journeyman?). A mason might be involved in design as well as stone cutting / carving and son might have bigged up the occupation to architect.

living in Cockitslane, Linton, Peeblesshire, Scotland
George Scott 35 b Peeblesshire
Christian Scott  35 b Scotland
William Scott  10 b Peeblesshire
John Scott  8 b Peeblesshire
Marion Scott  4  b Peeblesshire

The family is still there in 1851, William is apprentice stone mason.  Could he have moved to Birmingham area by 1858 and become a clerk?

I can't find any of the family in 1861
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Friday 29 June 18 10:44 BST (UK)

As of 1861, the punishment in Bermuda for a Caucasian woman bearing a black child was whipping, so would their marriage be legal in Bermuda in 1865, when their first child was born? (I read that online somewhere, but can't remember the source).

Samuel was technically a free man when that first child was born?

"1863. January 1. President Lincoln, aware of the public's growing support of abolition, issued the Emancipation Proclamation declaring that all slaves in areas still in rebellion were, in the eyes of the federal government, free."
"1865. June 2.  The US Civil War ended with victory for the Union when General Edmund Kirby Smith, commander of the Confederate forces west of the Mississippi, surrendered to Union forces"

Wonder what month their first child was born in?

I did read that there were many more females than males on Bermuda too, so it may have been hard to find a European male to have a relationship with. Aprroximately 6 or 7 men per 10 females due to war, shipwrecks and disease https://www.jstor.org/stable/3174484?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Friday 29 June 18 10:58 BST (UK)
1910 Marion Easton is a widow and in hospital
Says she has 7 living children (out of 15)
parent's birth place recorded as Bermuda, and then that has been crossed out and it seems to say Atlantic Is  - is there such a place?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RV5-47V?i=24&cc=1727033

Atlantic as a birth place (possibly born at sea?) but then it says Atlantic Is. (as in Islands)

Is she Marion J Easton on that document too?

Also she is in an Sanatorium for Tuberculosis disease :(
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Friday 29 June 18 11:12 BST (UK)
Did we pick up in the 1920's United states census for Prasaic that Marion E Easton is remarried to a Walter Davis?

Walter Davis   Head   M   40   Virginia
Marion E Davis   Wife   F   47   Bermuda
Everett Easton   Stepson   M   24   Bermuda
Stewart Easton   Stepson   M   21   Bermuda
Genevieve Easton   Stepdaughter   F   18   Bermuda
Robert Easton   Stepson   M   17   Bermuda
Wesley Easton   Stepson   M   15   Bermuda

In 1930 Census - She becomes Marion E H Davis

She married Walter Davis between 1910 and 1915

Wonder where she died?
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: LizzieL on Friday 29 June 18 11:33 BST (UK)

As of 1861, the punishment in Bermuda for a Caucasian woman bearing a black child was whipping, so would their marriage be legal in Bermuda in 1865, when their first child was born? (I read that online somewhere, but can't remember the source).

Samuel was technically a free man when that first child was born?

"1863. January 1. President Lincoln, aware of the public's growing support of abolition, issued the Emancipation Proclamation declaring that all slaves in areas still in rebellion were, in the eyes of the federal government, free."
"1865. June 2.  The US Civil War ended with victory for the Union when General Edmund Kirby Smith, commander of the Confederate forces west of the Mississippi, surrendered to Union forces"

Wonder what month their first child was born in?

I did read that there were many more females than males on Bermuda too, so it may have been hard to find a European male to have a relationship with. Aprroximately 6 or 7 men per 10 females due to war, shipwrecks and disease https://www.jstor.org/stable/3174484?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Wasn't Bermuda a British colony?
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Friday 29 June 18 11:55 BST (UK)
Yes that was the problem they got involved in the America civil war... they (Bermuda) were used by the Confederate ships as a port by 1865 though the Union side had won the war.

Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: Jomot on Friday 29 June 18 11:57 BST (UK)
Did we pick up in the 1920's United states census for Prasaic that Marion E Easton is remarried to a Walter Davis?

Yes, they married in 1913 - see my earlier post below, and also the one before that linking to 1920 & 1930 census.

New Jersey Marriage Index for Marion Easton & Walter E Davis:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m9n/

I have no idea what information is on New Jersey marriage records, but I have several marriages from other US states which name both parents of the bride and the groom.  If Marion is sister to Charles and Stuart then perhaps your best bet would be to obtain a copy of this marriage from the New Jersey State Archives?


Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Friday 29 June 18 12:11 BST (UK)
Wasn't Bermuda a British colony?

"The slave trade was finally outlawed in Bermuda in 1807 and all slaves were freed in 1834. This day of freedom is celebrated as the Emancipation Day in Bermuda."

Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: wilcoxon on Friday 29 June 18 12:14 BST (UK)

I can only find one George Scott architect in 1851 & 1861 censuses.  He was George Gilbert SCOTT b 1811.  He was knighted in 1872 and died in 1878  (Wikipedia)

But he didn't get married (To Caroline OLDRID) until 1838

Sons born to them seem well documented with no sign of visits to Bermuda

George Scott (whoever he was) really is key in all of this.  Until the right Scott line is established in the UK there is no way of establishing a link with whatever went on in Bermuda.  Unfortunately without a birthplace for his son William it’s hard to make progress on this.

Sir George Gilbert Scott R A was the grandson of Rev Thomas Scott.
Obituary Worcestershire Chronicle 30 March 1878
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Saturday 30 June 18 02:51 BST (UK)

As of 1861, the punishment in Bermuda for a Caucasian woman bearing a black child was whipping, so would their marriage be legal in Bermuda in 1865, when their first child was born? (I read that online somewhere, but can't remember the source).

Samuel was technically a free man when that first child was born?

"1863. January 1. President Lincoln, aware of the public's growing support of abolition, issued the Emancipation Proclamation declaring that all slaves in areas still in rebellion were, in the eyes of the federal government, free."
"1865. June 2.  The US Civil War ended with victory for the Union when General Edmund Kirby Smith, commander of the Confederate forces west of the Mississippi, surrendered to Union forces"

Wonder what month their first child was born in?

I did read that there were many more females than males on Bermuda too, so it may have been hard to find a European male to have a relationship with. Aprroximately 6 or 7 men per 10 females due to war, shipwrecks and disease https://www.jstor.org/stable/3174484?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

In Bermuda, where Sam was born, lived, etc., the slaves were freed on August 1, 1834. At the point  where he met  and had children with my ancestor, it was circa 1865.  Now, if Sam were much older than we estimate (being born circa 1850), it could be possible that he was born into slavery, but family lore says that he was born around 1850.

As for the male to female ratio: Sam's life was threatened because of this relationship with my ancestor, so I wonder if these sort of relationships were acceptable to the general population in Bermuda at that time. At one point, Sam had to go into hiding to escape being killed. Poor Sam--he must have really loved Miss Scott.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: Jomot on Saturday 30 June 18 03:10 BST (UK)
You haven't acknowledged the information about the 1913 marriage of Marion Easton nee Scott to Walter E Davis, and the suggestion that you order it as it might just name her parents.  Is there a reason?
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Saturday 30 June 18 13:46 BST (UK)
You haven't acknowledged the information about the 1913 marriage of Marion Easton nee Scott to Walter E Davis, and the suggestion that you order it as it might just name her parents.  Is there a reason?

Yes, there are several reasons. One I stated in a prior post: I had to message my cousin for further information, as he's the only one who would know. I did that right after I posted ; he just replied last night. He 's never heard of Marion, and thinks that it may be another Stuart Scott. He is checking into this. I will post his reply. As for her parent's names being on it: I don't remember having my parents' names on my marriage license, and and I think that most states do not provide that information (?). Perhaps if one of the parties is under 18, they may.

As for the marriage license: there is no point in spending the money until I get confirmation from my cousin. Also, New Jersey requires a ridiculous amount of personal i.d. in order to order a vital record copy, which I am not prepared to hand over. They want copies of two years of utility bills, your driver's license, and other things. For reference, I ordered copies of birth and death certificates from the U.K.--all with no i.d. required, even though I live overseas (oddly, it was, even with the postage, only $3 USD more than New Jersey's copies. Thank, you U.K.--and I mean that sincerely--being able to do that without the red tape helped to solve a family mystery).




Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: Jomot on Saturday 30 June 18 17:33 BST (UK)
Thanks for your explanation, and whilst I can certainly understand you not particularly wanting to send all that proof of ID (talk about red tape and unnecessary bureaucracy!) but I don't really understand needing to check with your cousin first, although that's your call. 

For what it's worth, I really don't think its a different Stuart Scott - as well as the 1909 passenger list with both Stuart & Marion, we have we have a record showing Gerald Easton being Cousin to Eleanor O'Blenis (1930 census), a passenger list showing Gerald arriving in the US and going to his mother Mrs W Easton (9 Aug 1907), and a border crossing for record of Helen [Ellen/Eleanor] Scott daughter of Charles Scott of Warwick, Bermuda going to her Aunt, Mrs Wm Easton.

As I said, I do understand the annoyance at the excessive proof of ID requirements, but I think I'll bow out now as there's not much point in me spending time & effort finding leads that have to be 'approved' by someone else fist.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Saturday 30 June 18 18:40 BST (UK)
Thanks for your explanation, and whilst I can certainly understand you not particularly wanting to send all that proof of ID (talk about red tape and unnecessary bureaucracy!) but I don't really understand needing to check with your cousin first, although that's your call. 

For what it's worth, I really don't think its a different Stuart Scott - as well as the 1909 passenger list with both Stuart & Marion, we have we have a record showing Gerald Easton being Cousin to Eleanor O'Blenis (1930 census), a passenger list showing Gerald arriving in the US and going to his mother Mrs W Easton (9 Aug 1907), and a border crossing for record of Helen [Ellen/Eleanor] Scott daughter of Charles Scott of Warwick, Bermuda going to her Aunt, Mrs Wm Easton.

As I said, I do understand the annoyance at the excessive proof of ID requirements, but I think I'll bow out now as there's not much point in me spending time & effort finding leads that have to be 'approved' by someone else fist.

I ask my cousin as I do not know him personally, and he knows his side of the family's history. We only "met" via DNA testing, and correspond through the website, so I email him questions and he replies. I know nothing of his side of the family; only what he tells me. He also has living relatives that he can ask about their ancestors. I may be related to him, but we do not know each other, and have never met. I never knew about my ancestor until I met him on the DNA website. I am not asking him for permission for anything--only information.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Sunday 01 July 18 11:13 BST (UK)
Jennie Lovell died in Manhattan on 6 March 1926 aged 36 (four days after the death of her newborn daughter).

Her parents are named as Charles Scott and Eleanor Parker.

Yes, that's our Charles and his wife.

Do you have an ancestry subscription (only if you have one), maybe you should build a seperate tree for your cousins family (keep it completely private) if you do, there are people with Parkers and Lovells from Bermuda on there in their trees ......hopefully some Scotts would appear?

Getting certificates from Bermuda also seems expensive
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Monday 02 July 18 00:47 BST (UK)
I don't have an Ancestry subscription, but I can use a library version at work on my lunch breaks. I don't know if that version allows one to make trees, though. My cousins' families do have public trees, which I check every so often to see if they've added anything.

Thank you for your ideas!
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: brigidmac on Tuesday 10 July 18 03:50 BST (UK)
If you create a site for yourself you can make a tree on Ancestry for free

I log on to.my site and my sisters site at library as well as the generic one.

This is a fascinating story I'm really impressed by all the wOrk that has gone into it

Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Tuesday 10 July 18 04:22 BST (UK)
Thank you. I'll look into making the tree on Ancestry.

I agree; it's a fascinating mystery for me, and a very frustrating one. I'm not a romantic sort of person, but I think it's a romantic story, and I'm intrigued by it. This past week, I've done very little research, as I've been concentrating on this mystery for six months, spending so much time every day on it, and I decided that it was time to take care of other things in life for a few days.I'm starting to think that I will never find her. It should be rather simple: she has to be a daughter of either George Scott's brothers or a generation back (to George's father), but there are so many men with those names born around the same year in Birmingham, if indeed that is where they are from. And, if they are not from Birmingham, the thought of researching all of England, Scotland, or Ireland for such a common name is enough to make me scream! I feel as if I am going around in circles.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Sunday 15 July 18 01:42 BST (UK)
Does anyone think there could be something in this record about Margaret R. Scott, born in Bermuda?

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=75&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22Margaret%20R%22~%20%2Bsurname%3Ascott~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Abermuda~

Thank you.
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Sunday 15 July 18 07:31 BST (UK)
If you look at the younger siblings records, you get the name of a Ship

Day Month   26-Dec
Year   1850
Parish Or Reg District   Antony, Chapel of Torpoint
Forename   John Walter
Surname   SCOTT
Sex   
Father Forename   John
Mother Forename   Sarah Tilsed
Residence   Torpoint
Father Rank Profession   Master HMS Encounter   <-----------------------------helpful maybe?

Day Month   20-Dec
Year   1857
Parish Or Reg District   Antony, Chapel of Torpoint
Forename   Annie Lang?
Surname   SCOTT
Sex   
Father Forename   John
Mother Forename   Sarah Tilsed
Residence   Torpoint
Father Rank Profession   Master RN
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: whiteout7 on Sunday 15 July 18 07:42 BST (UK)
She appears to be Margaret Robina Scott born 20 Sep 1846 died 20 Jan 1925 (needs double checking).

She married  Valentine Dyer James Rickcord on 21 Sep 1867 in St Germans in Cornwall.

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Scott-Descendants-8603

Not sure she would have sailed away a left two sons in Bermuda

Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: JewellersGranddaughter on Monday 16 July 18 18:01 BST (UK)
Thank you. I'm without the Internet at home for a few days, so I will provide a better reply then.  :)
Title: Re: Mystery woman from Bermuda...or Birmingham, England?
Post by: kjthistory on Monday 18 February 19 21:24 GMT (UK)
Hi,

If you think Margaret Robina born 1846 might be your ancestor, I can give you some information on her mother's ancestry.