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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Liviani on Monday 25 June 18 02:21 BST (UK)
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Ok, this lady has caused me many sources of frustration, so much so that I've wanted to go back in time and give her a good old shake! Beware, there are umpteen Isabellas in this story. ;D
I've exhausted researching her and the last thing I'm needing to find is her Death Cert. She seems to vanish. She has led a very interesting life for the time that's for sure. So here goes with what I have, this will be long!
She is my 3x great-grandmother.
Isabella Anderson was born 1826 in Gamrie. Her parents were:
- Robert Anderson
- Elizabeth Ferrier (1808 - 1870)
She has a number of illegitimate children with a Francis Anderson who is very much older than her. I actually suspected incest at one point. The details of these children are;
Patrick b.1855 Gamrie
Isabella Frances b.1857 Gamrie
Margaret Ann b. Oct 1859
Isabella Frances dies in 1860. Found a newspaper report saying she ran into the fire and was so badly burnt she died a few days later. Terrible story.
Then Isabella Anderson and Francis Anderson marry in December 1859. Francis is widowed and is aged 68 whilst Isabella is aged 33! Address of Francis is given as 28 Gellymill Street and Isabella's is given as 38 Gellymill Street. I suspect this to be lies and they were actually living together, but who knows.
They then have a legitimate daughter together in Feb 1863 - Mary Frances. Unfortunately Francis Anderson dies only a few months later in the May 1863!
Isabella Anderson goes on to have another illegitimate child in 1866 in Gamrie. An Isabella.
Francis Anderson's first wife was Isobel Massie (1803 - 1842).
This couple had the following children;
Mary. 1826
Isabella. 1832 (yes, another one!) ::)
Margaret. 1832
Christian. 1834
Francis. 1840
John. 1842
Back to my Isabella Anderson. I have her in the following census:
1851
Snubs, Gamrie.
Isabella is the daughter in law of the head here (though it is actually her step-father). A Francis Jamieson, 50, Farmer of 5 acres.
This is a large household and Isabella's grandmother Elizabeth Farrier nee Mair is here aged 73.
Isabella's occupation is down as not known.
There are 2 young children in this household. An Eliza Anderson aged 4 and a George Anderson aged 1. Wouldn't be surprised if these were 2 children by Isabella here. But can't confirm. ???
1861
Gellymill Street, Macduff, Gamrie
Francis, 69. Pauper.
With some of his children from his first marriage.
Patrick and a 1 year old Christian who I believe to actually be Margaret Ann.
1871
19 Carmelite Street, Banff.
Isabella aged 45 is widowed and is a pauper.
She is living with daughters Mary aged 8 and Isabella aged 5.
After this, she disappears. I cannot find her death certificate or anything that could be her in 1881. I wonder if she emigrated, but cannot find much anywhere at all. Her name is pretty common making this more difficult.
She's a bit of a mystery this lady, and the Kirk Session records for Gamrie would probably make for very interesting reading.
I have also wondered if Francis Anderson was actually the father of all of her children or whether he just took them on? It's a bit puzzling, he wasn't a very well off man himself and to take on all those children through marriage. ???
If anyone could help with this last piece of Isabella's puzzle I'd be extremely grateful.
Many thanks,
Liv.
Edit: Francis Anderson's parents were William Anderson and Christian Bruce (1754 - ?)
Also, Isabella was illiterate as she was signing with 'her mark' on both her marriage cert in 1859 and on the birth cert of her daughter Margaret Ann.
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Liviani,
I haven't quite read through everything as it's a lot to take in on 1 sitting ;D
My 1st question is...
Do you have this official record from SP (1855 birth) as it should have a lot of info?...
"She has a number of illegitimate children with a Francis Anderson who is very much older than her. I actually suspected incest at one point. The details of these children are;
Patrick b.1855 Gamrie
Annie
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Liviani,
I haven't quite read through everything as it's a lot to take in on 1 sitting ;D
My 1st question is...
Do you have this official record from SP (1855 birth) as it should have a lot of info?...
"She has a number of illegitimate children with a Francis Anderson who is very much older than her. I actually suspected incest at one point. The details of these children are;
Patrick b.1855 Gamrie
Annie
Just got it now.
Patrick born 18th June 1855. He was born in Gardenstown, Gamrie. Illegitimate. Signed with her mark. She was the informant. She was aged 29 here.
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Her future husband Francis was widowed by 1851 and he was living at Haddolays in 1851. Whether or not this gives any clues.
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My next question (as said prior, too much to take in on 1 sitting) ;D
"Then Isabella Anderson and Francis Anderson marry in December 1859. Francis is widowed and is aged 68 whilst Isabella is aged 33! Address of Francis is given as 28 Gellymill Street and Isabella's is given as 38 Gellymill Street. I suspect this to be lies and they were actually living together, but who knows"
The marriage was post Statutory Records i.e. what info. is on there including witnesses?
Have you followed back the parentage of each for a common ancestor as relationships as close as cousins could marry i.e. not 'incest' but going back you may find the possible/probable connection?
This was common for people of same surnames marrying in local areas as everyone was more or less related i.e. no surprise although the age difference does pose some curiosity although at this point I don't think (I) would be assuming anything untoward without having investigated further back given the times & lack of potential wives/husbands in communities in the era/area?
Annie
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My next question (as said prior, too much to take in on 1 sitting) ;D
"Then Isabella Anderson and Francis Anderson marry in December 1859. Francis is widowed and is aged 68 whilst Isabella is aged 33! Address of Francis is given as 28 Gellymill Street and Isabella's is given as 38 Gellymill Street. I suspect this to be lies and they were actually living together, but who knows"
The marriage was post Statutory Records i.e. what info. is on there including witnesses?
Have you followed back the parentage of each for a common ancestor as relationships as close as cousins could marry i.e. not 'incest' but going back you may find the possible/probable connection?
This was common for people of same surnames marrying in local areas as everyone was more or less related i.e. no surprise although the age difference does pose some curiosity although at this point I don't think (I) would be assuming anything untoward without having investigated further back given the times & lack of potential wives/husbands in communities in the era/area?
Annie
The witnesses to their marriage in 1859 were a Thomas Wilson and George Gill. These men were also witnesses to Isabella Anderson signing her mark.
They were married under the forms of of the Established Church, married by James Cruden, Minister.
Francis occupation is 'formerly a farmer'. Isabella doesn't have an occupation listed.
Francis parents are named as; William Anderson, Farmer & Christian Bruce, both deceased. Isabellas are named as Robert Anderson, Farmer & Elizabeth Ferrier, both deceased.
I cannot seem to get anywhere with the Andersons other than both Francis and Isabella's parents due to the era involved.
Francis did have a brother named Robert born 1802. So on the off chance this is the Robert that's Isabella's father that would make Francis, Isabella's uncle. :o
It is theoretically possible, as Robert Anderson and Elizabeth Ferrier married in 1825, making the ages fit ok.
The problem is that Anderson has such heavy concentrations in this area of Scotland.
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Other children of Robert Anderson and Elizabeth Ferrier (siblings of my Isabella Anderson).
John. 1828
Francis. 1830 (there's that name again!)
James. 1832
Elizabeth. 1832
Barbara. 1836
all born Gamrie.
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As always a Timeline with names/dates/places etc. is a good thing for all to see/follow without having to keep scrolling etc. & keeps everything in order when things become complicated.
Names of all children in order are a good pointer but have you checked out the siblings of each (Francis & Isabella), witnesses to events etc. which can hold good clues?
Annie
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Isabella is the daughter in law of the head here (though it is actually her step-father).
Daughter-in-law often is used where we would say stepdaughter, and likewise son-in-law for stepson. Nothing unusual in that.
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Names of all children in order are a good pointer but have you checked out the siblings of each (Francis & Isabella), witnesses to events etc. which can hold good clues?
Annie
Will sort that tonight in this post. For now, here is a snip of Robert Anderson's baptism record. This is Francis' brother.
His parents were at Haddolays, where their son Francis farmed at for a time. The witnesses appear to be; George Campbell of Aberdour and can't make out the other name ____ Foulie.. in the .. of Troup?
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His parents were at Haddolays, where their son Francis farmed at for a time. The witnesses appear to be; George Campbell of Aberdour and can't make out the other name ____ Foulie.. in the .. of Troup?
Alexr Fowlie in the Glens of Troup.
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Many thanks Forfarian. I've managed to find this place on an NLS map.
Now, I'll list the siblings and parents of Isabella Anderson and Francis Anderson. Also including a snip of Isabella/Isobel's baptism.
Isabella Anderson
Any mention of an 'Isabella' in this post will refer to her unless other wise stated since there are so many.
Born - June 1826 in Doups, Gamrie, Banffshire.
Witnesses were, John Anderson and Duff Munro of Cross-Slacks.
There is no location given for John Anderson, it could be that he was also located at Cross-Slacks?
Dies - ? Sometimes after 1871. Cannot find a record for her.
Duff Munro is in the 1841 Census still at Cross-Slacks, Gamrie. Aged 63 and is a 'Wright'.
Marries - Francis Anderson, 1859, Gamrie.
Parents of Isabella Anderson
- Robert Anderson. Born ? Died bef. 1840. Marries Elizabeth 1825, Gamrie
- Elizabeth Ferrier. Born 1808 - Gamrie. Died 1870 - Turriff.
- Step-father; Francis Jamieson. Born 1801 - Gamrie. Marries Elizabeth in 1840, Gamrie
Siblings of Isabella Anderson
- John b.1828, Gamrie
- Francis b.1830, Gamrie
- James b.1832, Gamrie
- Elizabeth b.1834, Gamrie
- Barbara b.1836, Gamrie
Half-siblings of Isabella Anderson (with Jamieson surname)
- George b.1840, Gamrie
- William b.1842, Gamrie
- Margaret b.1843, Gamrie
- Alexander b.1846, Gamrie
Francis Anderson
Born - 22nd June 1791, Gamrie.
Dies - 13th May 1863, Macduff, Gamrie.
Marries - Isobel Massie, 1824, Gamrie.
Marries - Isabella Anderson, 1859, Gamrie.
Parents of Francis Anderson
- William Anderson
- Christian Bruce. Born 1754 - Aberdour, Aberdeenshire
Siblings of Francis Anderson
- John b.1793, Gamrie (could this be the witness on Isabella's baptism?)
- William b.1795, Gamrie
- Anne b.1797, Gamrie
- Robert b.1800, Gamrie (presume died in infancy)
- Robert b.1802, Gamrie (potentially Isabella's father?)
Children of Francis Anderson & his first wife Isobel Massie
- Mary b.1826, Gamrie
- Isabella b. abt 1831, Gamrie
- Margaret b.1832, Gamrie
- Christian b.1834, Gamrie
- Francis (male) b.1840, Gamrie
- John b.1842, Gamrie
Children of Francis Anderson & his second wife Isabella Anderson
I will include the illegitimate children of Isabella here, presuming that Francis is the father. Indeed, on my GG Grandmother, Margaret Ann's DC, her widower James Knight informs that Francis is her father.
- Patrick b.1855, Gardenstown, Gamrie (illegitimate)
- Isabella Frances b.1857, Gamrie, d.1860, Gamrie (illegitimate)
- Margaret Ann b.1859, Gamrie (illegitimate)
- Mary Frances b.1863, Gamrie (legitimate)
Isabella goes on to have a further child after her husband Francis dies in May 1863. This child is called Isabella b.1866, Macduff, Gamrie. Father unknown.
Now, Francis' brother, Robert b.1802, was born in Haddoleys, Gamrie. Francis himself is at Haddoleys in 1841. Unfortunately the witnesses on said Robert's baptism don't offer any clues; Alexander Fowlie/Foulie of Glens of Troup and George Campbell of Aberdour. There is an Alexr. Fowlie aged 80 in 1841 at Dons, Gamrie, born outside county.
If we move forward to Isabella's baptism record of 1826. She was born at Doups, Gamrie. Witnesses were John Anderson and a Duff Munro of Cross-Slacks as mentioned earlier. Could this John be the same one born 1793 and Francis brother? Making him Robert's brother? This is all just a theory just now, but it seems logical to me?
In 1841 Isabella is at 'Snub' in Gamrie living with her step father Francis Jamieson and other family members.
I've had a look at NLS maps for the various locations mentioned here, and Doups, Glens of Troup, Snub and Haddoleys are all pretty much neighbouring properties (snip included for reference), this is between both Isabella's family and Francis'. My suspicions on this being true is also in reference to Isabella marrying Francis in 1859. By this point, Isabella already had 3 illegitimate children and Francis himself was a pauper. He was 68 years old when he married 33 year old Isabella. It's not as if Isabella married him for support for the children? It's all very odd to me. According to his death certificate, it states he died of and had 'chronic bronchitis, for years'. So he wasn't exactly a very healthy man either. It does make me question whether or not he is indeed the father of Isabella's children at all. It's a very strange family for the time, and one which doesn't make much sense to me. The only explanation that keeps going through my head is that Francis was her uncle, and felt some sort of duty to marry her to save her from further shame? Who knows, but it does seem to fit?
Anyone have any other suggestions or ideas, I'm welcome to them. Also still hunting down her DC and if she's still in Scotland or alive in 1881.
Many thanks,
Liv.
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"The witnesses to their marriage in 1859 were a Thomas Wilson and George Gill. These men were also witnesses to Isabella Anderson signing her mark."
A slight variation on the spelling & regarding address in 1859 there does seem to be ties of a sort to the surname Gill/Gillan...
VRs;
GILLAN JAMES
Tenant
PART HOUSE NO 28 GELLYMILL STREET BURGH OF BARONY OF MACDUFF, GAMRIE
1855
VR009100001-
WILSON THOMAS (He appears to own other properties)?
Proprietor Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN NO 13 GELLYMILL STREET BURGH OF BARONY OF MACDUFF, GAMRIE
1855
VR009100001-
Annie
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"Dies - ? Sometimes after 1871. Cannot find a record for her."
Have you traced where her children were later, married etc. as Isabella may have gone to live with one of her children?
Annie
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"The witnesses to their marriage in 1859 were a Thomas Wilson and George Gill. These men were also witnesses to Isabella Anderson signing her mark."
A slight variation on the spelling & regarding address in 1859 there does seem to be ties of a sort to the surname Gill/Gillan...
VRs;
GILLAN JAMES
Tenant
PART HOUSE NO 28 GELLYMILL STREET BURGH OF BARONY OF MACDUFF, GAMRIE
1855
VR009100001-
WILSON THOMAS (He appears to own other properties)?
Proprietor Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN NO 13 GELLYMILL STREET BURGH OF BARONY OF MACDUFF, GAMRIE
1855
VR009100001-
Annie
That's really interesting. Good find Annie.
I've just re-checked the 1859 MC between Isabella and Francis and it appears the "38" Gellymill Street for Isabella's address isn't a 3 after all. On closer inspection it's definitely a 2. So they were both living at 28 Gellymill Street together at the time of their marriage in 1859.
Re Thomas Wilson. I've checked the 1851 census, and the minister of Gamrie at the time was a Thomas Wilson aged 58, living in the Manse with his family. He is also living with a son "Thomas J." aged 17 who was an A.M Student. Perhaps this is the witness. The minister by 1859 had changed to a James Cruden.
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I wonder if Isabella moved back?
ANDERSON MRS
Occupier
HOUSE GARDEN AND STABLE 28 MACDUFF GELLYMILL STREET, GAMRIE
1875
VR009100037-
This one is hard to work out as I've noticed in the past a widow would be entered as 'Widow' rather than 'Mrs' but I don't think it was a rule although I don't know?
Annie
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Have you considered a re-marriage?
I have no idea of distances between places in Banffshire but...
ANDERSON ISABELLA
DUNCAN GEORGE
1874
159/ 3
Keith
There are a host of surname Duncan on the VRs 1875 e.g...
DUNCAN ELSPET
Tenant Occupier
DWELLING HOUSE 19 CARMELITE STREET, BANFF (where Isabella was in 1871)!
1875
VR000800004-
Annie
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I noticed on the 1861 census, Patrick (b 1855) was shown as Patrick S
Do you know what the 'S' relates to?
I see he died the following year :(
Annie
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Have you considered a re-marriage?
I have no idea of distances between places in Banffshire but...
ANDERSON ISABELLA
DUNCAN GEORGE
1874
159/ 3
Keith
From LIBINDX, Isabella Anderson, wife of George Duncan, was buried in Keith in 1904, aged 58. Therefore she was born 1845/1846. Therefore she is not your Isabella remarried.
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If Robert Anderson was the brother of Francis Anderson, and Francis Anderson's mother was Christian Bruce, it seems odd that neither of Robert's daughters was named Christian?
If Francis was a pauper, there would have been extensive information about him in the records of Gamrie Parochial Board, which would include details about his wife and any dependant children. The surviving Poor Relief records for Gamrie are in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire Archives https://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/libraries-and-archives/aberdeen-city-and-aberdeenshire-archives/catalogues-and-indexes/poor-relief-records
Some photographs of the Tore of Troup at http://www.geograph.org.uk/geotrips/173.
All the farms/crofts mentioned in this thread have vanished, apart from the foundations of Glens of Troup, which can be seen if you go to http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.6459&lon=-2.2855&layers=5&b=1 and slide the blue button in the box on the left to left and right to compare the old map with the aerial view. You might want to zoom in a bit.
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Age a little out but have you considered this entry for Isabella in 1881:
Isabella Anderson 48 Domestic Servant Unemployed, b. Gamrie
Address: 26 Clergy St, Gamrie
Original would show her maritial status
Monica
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I noticed on the 1861 census, Patrick (b 1855) was shown as Patrick S
Do you know what the 'S' relates to?
I see he died the following year :(
Annie
Unfortunately not, his birth record just states 'Patrick Anderson'. His death is just indexed as 'Patrick Anderson' also. It could possibly be 'Shepherd' as Isabella's great-grandmother was an Elizabeth Shepherd. Her great-grandfather was William Mair.
Age a little out but have you considered this entry for Isabella in 1881:
Isabella Anderson 48 Domestic Servant Unemployed, b. Gamrie
Address: 26 Clergy St, Gamrie
Original would show her maritial status
Monica
Hi Monica, many thanks for finding this.
I checked the free (LDS) text on SP. It states her condition as "U" which I presume to be unmarried? Would the actual copy show anything different?
I suspect this Isabella Anderson may in fact be my Isabella's half-sister. Francis Anderson and his first wife Isobel Massie had a daughter named Isabella about 1832 in Gamrie. There are far too many Isabella/Isobel Andersons in this family. ;D ;D
Re: the other points in the thread from others, many thanks, I have a lot to look at today, will get back with more info later today if I find it.
Liv.
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If Robert Anderson was the brother of Francis Anderson, and Francis Anderson's mother was Christian Bruce, it seems odd that neither of Robert's daughters was named Christian?
That is a good point Forfarian. Didn't think of that one.
If Francis was a pauper, there would have been extensive information about him in the records of Gamrie Parochial Board, which would include details about his wife and any dependant children. The surviving Poor Relief records for Gamrie are in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire Archives https://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/libraries-and-archives/aberdeen-city-and-aberdeenshire-archives/catalogues-and-indexes/poor-relief-records
Thank you for this information. How would I go about accessing these records, would this be able to be done remotely via email? Or in person, which I could do at some point. If you know of course.
Re - photographs. Very interesting, many thanks. It's a pity that none of these farms are around today, but such is life. I can see the foundations of Glens of Troup from the satellite/aerial images on the maps. I can see it's the same shapes as the images from NLS maps.
Today, I have been researching Isabella's daughter: Mary Frances Anderson, born Feb 1863, Banff, Banffshire. As far as I am aware, she is the only legitimate daughter of Isabella Anderson and Francis Anderson. Mary Frances is the second youngest child (that I know about) of Isabella. Isabella goes on to have a further illegitimate child in 1866, named Isabella. This is after her husband, Francis dies in 1863.
I have some confusion regarding Mary Frances, her possible husband and where she is in latter censuses. I was hoping my research on her would shed some clues as to her mother, Isabella's whereabouts post 1871 but just ended up with more questions as a result.
In 1871 she is living with her mother and sister (Isabella) at 19 Carmelite St, Banff. Aged 8.
I believe this is her in 1881; Mary Anderson, Servant, Aged 18, 16 High Street, Banff. The head of the house is a John Ord, aged 61, born Paisley, Renfrew, Basket Maker. His son is also here a Robertson Ord, aged 13, born Macduff.
In 1891, I believe her to be the Mary Anderson, aged 27, living at 37 Boyndie Street, Banff. She is a Hawker. There are a number of children of her listed and they are as follows;
John Ord b.1882 Banff
Alexander Ord b.1884 Banff
Jessie Ord b.1886 Banff
Martha Ord b.1888 Banff
Andrew R. Ord b.1890 Banff
(approximate dates, and these are all listed as her daughters and sons).
So I make the connection with the John Ord living with Mary Anderson in 1881 and try to find him in 1891.
I find him, still a basket maker and he is also living at 37 Boyndie Street, Banff? Though it's listed as a separate entry on An****y. He is listed with a wife here, a Mary Ord aged 27, a Hawker like Mary Anderson above and born Banff. I suspect them to be the same person and there has been an error somewhere. Which given this site, is not surprising.
So I check on SP for a marriage between a John Ord and a Mary in Banff, and only one record appears in the index.
One pops up and it's between John Ord and Mary McAllister 1875 Banff. ???
I go on to check deaths for a Mary Anderson or Ord. Three come up and only one fits the approx age of my Mary. Mary Ord, 67, dies 1929 Monkton and Prestwick. I purchase the image and this isn't her. It states she was the widow of a Samuel Ord, no parents details are listed, just the father as ---- Anderson. So I am none the wiser.
I find Mary Anderson in 1901 on SP.
This time she is at 14 Boyndie Street, Banff. Aged 38 and is still a Hawker. She is living with her following children:
John, 19, labourer general
Alex, 17, apprentice tailor
Jessie, 15, ----
Martha, 13, scholar
Andrew, 12 scholar
So this is the same family in 1891. Just very confused as to the Mary McAllister/Mary Anderson question.
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Got an update regarding Isabella here.
A relative of mine who is researching the same line has found some exciting information out quite by accident.
In 1881, the Isabella in question is living at 52 Upper Denburn, Old Machar, Aberdeen.
There are quite a few discrepancies in the census but I am still confident it is her. I will explain here.
She is listed as ANNABELLA ANDERSON, 64, born Gamrie. The head of the household appears to be Annabella/Isabella's daughter rather than granddaughter. I believe this to be the case because in 1851, my Isabella is living at Snubs, Gamrie, Banffshire. The head of the household is her step-father; Francis Jamison (her father died and her mother re-married). An Isobel Anderson is here aged 25 born Gamrie. There are 2 young children here named Eliza Anderson 4, born Gamrie and George Anderson, 1, born Gamrie. These young children are enumerated as gdau and gson in law. There is nothing in the OPRs re these children that I could find so I suspect they weren't baptised. They would've been illegitimate I suspect.
So, this is why I think Eliza is actually Isabella's daughter rather than grand-daughter. Annabella/Isabella is really approx 54 rather than the 64 listed. There is also an Isabella Anderson in this household aged 14. I believe my Isabella had another illegitimate child born in 1866 named Isabella. So this isn't Eliza's daughter in reality. Lots of cover ups going on here. She had a lot of illegitimate children and appears much lying in the census.
As for post 1881, I am struggling to find anything on any of these people in the household in 1881. There is another Sophia Anderson born a year prior to the one named here. I suspect the one in 1891 is not the one named here and the one born prior and not connected.
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That's a step forward Liviani & does fit with your previous post;
"1851
Snubs, Gamrie.
Isabella is the daughter in law of the head here (though it is actually her step-father). A Francis Jamieson, 50, Farmer of 5 acres.
This is a large household and Isabella's grandmother Elizabeth Farrier nee Mair is here aged 73.
Isabella's occupation is down as not known.
There are 2 young children in this household. An Eliza Anderson aged 4 and a George Anderson aged 1. Wouldn't be surprised if these were 2 children by Isabella here."
You don't give Isabella's age on the 1851 but she seems too young to be the g/mother of Eliza & George.
Are you able to find Eliza or George after 1881, marriages/deaths with parentage?
Annie
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That's a step forward Liviani & does fit with your previous post;
"1851
Snubs, Gamrie.
Isabella is the daughter in law of the head here (though it is actually her step-father). A Francis Jamieson, 50, Farmer of 5 acres.
This is a large household and Isabella's grandmother Elizabeth Farrier nee Mair is here aged 73.
Isabella's occupation is down as not known.
There are 2 young children in this household. An Eliza Anderson aged 4 and a George Anderson aged 1. Wouldn't be surprised if these were 2 children by Isabella here."
You don't give Isabella's age on the 1851 but she seems too young to be the g/mother of Eliza & George.
Are you able to find Eliza or George after 1881, marriages/deaths with parentage?
Annie
Re 1851 at Snubs, Gamrie.
Isobel (as she is spelled here) is 25 years of age in 1851. I believe she is with her brother at the time Francis aged 21. She does have a brother, Francis born Jan 1830 to Robert Anderson and Elizabeth Ferrier.
Will get back to you on her children Eliza and George. Not come up with much so far but still in the midst of the search.
Thanks. :)
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I had completely forgotten about this post. I think I got a bit scunnered and confused with Isabella Anderson for a while and left it. A while ago I went back with a fresh head and found some more info.
Isabella's daughter Eliza Anderson marries a widower named William Douglas in the parish of Durris, Kincardineshire in May 1884 .
Eliza's parents are named as Francis Anderson, a farmer (deceased) and Isabella Anderson m.s. Anderson. Her mother is not marked as deceased so she is still alive in 1884. Witnesses are Samuel Farquhar and Isabel Anderson. The Isabel Anderson is probably Eliza's sister, as her mother was illiterate and always signed with her mark and this Isabel had a signature.
Eliza had two children that I know about;
- Maggie Elder Anderson (1874 - 1943) born King Edward, ABD, died Drumlithie, Glenbervie. On Maggie's DC her father is named as a George Davie, a grain merchant.
- Sophia Robertson Anderson (1877 - 1929) born Upper Leadside, Aberdeen, died Barclay Street, Stonehaven.
In 1911 Eliza is widowed aged 64 and living at Bruce Court, Stonehaven. Also in the household are;
John Robbie, 16, grandson, Grocer's Messenger born Aberdeen
William D. Anderson, 6, grandson, Scholar, born Aberdeen
Agnes F. Anderson, 8, granddaughter, Scholar, born Aberdeen
George Shives(?) Anderson, 7, grandson, Scholar, born Aberdeen
I have still be unable to find Isabella Anderson's death (the mother of Eliza & many more). I know it will have been in 1884 or after. I suspect she died prior to the 1891 census.
Have not been able to find Eliza or Sophia in 1891. There was another Sophia Anderson born Aberdeen around the same time which doesn't help.
I haven't had any luck with Eliza's brother George.
Apparently Banffshire had very high rates of endogamy and illegitimacy, mostly in connection with the fisher community, but also in regards to the agricultural inland populations. Andrew Blaikie wrote about these communities and their social and moral values.
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Given the last sighting of Isabella b1826 was in Old Machar 1881 there are possibles for a death 1884 - 1891 ages vary but often the case, have you looked at them?
Annie
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Given the last sighting of Isabella b1826 was in Old Machar 1881 there are possibles for a death 1884 - 1891 ages vary but often the case, have you looked at them?
Annie
Unfortunately she isn't any of the following;
ANDERSON
ISABELLA
65
1888
168/2 854
Aberdeen Old Machar
ANDERSON
ISABELLA
61
1891
168/2 913
Aberdeen Old Machar
ANDERSON
ISABELLA
52
1885
168/1 558
St Nicholas
ANDERSON
ISABELLA
66
1886
168/1 89
St Nicholas
ANDERSON
ISABELLA
56
1889
168/2 242
Aberdeen Old Machar
ANDERSON
ISABELLA
71
1889
168/1 938
St Nicholas
ANDERSON
ISABELLA
55
1888
168/1 554
St Nicholas
So unfortunately I'm still not any further forward with her. I've tried searching names beginning Is* also. Also nothing in Kincardineshire where her daughter lived.
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I noticed one in particular named Elizabeth which may be worth the credits as Isabella/Elizabeth were often interchangeable & at this stage worth considering?
ANDERSON ELIZABETH 64
1890 (b c1826)
168/2 329
Aberdeen Old Machar
I searched surname Anderson only & left forename blank to pick up any variants.
Annie
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I noticed one in particular named Elizabeth which may be worth the credits as Isabella/Elizabeth were often interchangeable & at this stage worth considering?
ANDERSON ELIZABETH 64
1890 (b c1826)
168/2 329
Aberdeen Old Machar
I searched surname Anderson only & left forename blank to pick up any variants.
Annie
Thanks for the suggestion, I didn't think of using Elizabeth.
Sadly she isn't any of these two;
ANDERSON
ELIZABETH
64
1890
168/2 329
Aberdeen Old Machar
ANDERSON
ELIZABETH
66
1890
168/2 311
Aberdeen Old Machar
Think at this point I'm consigned to the fact she's vanished off the face of the earth. ;D ::)
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It's worth expanding on YoB as often the age of the deceased is a guess by the informant as I've found often.
I have a chap just now, vanished & have almost exhausted every death in Scotland +/- 5 yrs out of frustration but the surname has a variants too not helping but buying credits every few months & using a few specifically for him, living with hope & determination.
I'm also wondering if his age has been indexed wrong as I've had a few of those?
My g/mother in 1901 was indexed on anc* aged 73 (b c1828)...
She was aged 18 (b c1883) on SP but...
I have had others indexed on SP with wrong ages & now take all into account when scraping the bottom of the barrel (a costly affair) ;D
Annie
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It's worth expanding on YoB as often the age of the deceased is a guess by the informant as I've found often.
I have a chap just now, vanished & have almost exhausted every death in Scotland +/- 5 yrs out of frustration but the surname has a variants too not helping but buying credits every few months & using a few specifically for him, living with hope & determination.
I'm also wondering if his age has been indexed wrong as I've had a few of those?
My g/mother in 1901 was indexed on anc* aged 73 (b c1828)...
She was aged 18 (b c1883) on SP but...
I have had others indexed on SP with wrong ages & now take all into account when scraping the bottom of the barrel (a costly affair) ;D
Annie
I think part of the problem is simply her name. Isabella Anderson. Very common in that time period, and that's not including Isobel, Isabel, Belle, Elizabeth and even Annabella as she was named on the 1881 census. I think this will be a slow process and take some time to go through the records. I've already spent a hefty amount in the past few days. Will have to come back to it.
I hope you find your chap eventually!
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Hi I have read the details here with interest. I am trying to research my possibly 4th Gt grandfather Francs Anderson who farmed at Haddoleys in Gamrie. I believe he had a child with Helen Howat. The child was Sarah Anderson b.c. 1837. Francis Anderson: I think this may be Sarah Anderson's father but I cannot find a record of any marriage between him and Helen Howat, who I believe to be Sarah's mother. There seems to be a link to the Massie family in Gamrie. Francis Anderson married Isabel Massie in 1824.
On Sarah Anderson's marriage cert it states Fa: Francis Anderson - farm servant (deceased) which would fit with his date of death. The cert also states Mo: Helen Anderson (nee Howat) Struggling to work this out.
However, Sarah's residence in 1851 is 1851 • Gamrie, Banffshire, Scotland
House servant living with James Massie and Jean Kiloch (Killock?). Elizabeth Anderson is recorded as lodger not servant which implies she was related to James Massie (poss daughter of his sister Isabel)? The Massie/ Anderson/ Bruce families in this area do seem to be closely entwined! If anyone can shed any light that would be fantastic. Many thanks
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Elizabeth Anderson is recorded as lodger not servant which implies she was related to James Massie
I would not recommend making this assumption, or at least not drawing from it any conclusion not confirmed by other evidence. A lodger can be someone totally unrelated to the rest of the household.
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What a perfect storm. An Anderson marries an Anderson and she has a christian name that can be shortened in a number of ways, Bella, Issa, Lalla etc. Any other time you can search SP using two surnames to cross-reference but not this time.
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she has a christian name that can be shortened in a number of ways, Bella, Issa, Lalla ....
.... Tib, Tibby, Tibbie, Bell, Beldie, Isa, Izzie ....
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It is enough to make you want to bang your head against a real brickwall.
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...I believe he had a child with Helen Howat. The child was Sarah Anderson b.c. 1837. Francis Anderson: I think this may be Sarah Anderson's father but I cannot find a record of any marriage between him and Helen Howat, who I believe to be Sarah's mother. There seems to be a link to the Massie family in Gamrie. Francis Anderson married Isabel Massie in 1824.
On Sarah Anderson's marriage cert it states Fa: Francis Anderson - farm servant (deceased) which would fit with his date of death. The cert also states Mo: Helen Anderson (nee Howat) Struggling to work this out.
However, Sarah's residence in 1851 is 1851 • Gamrie, Banffshire, Scotland
...The Massie/ Anderson/ Bruce families in this area do seem to be closely entwined! If anyone can shed any light that would be fantastic. Many thanks
Hello, welcome to Rootschat!
My 3x great-grandfather is the Francis mentioned (though, whether or not he is the biological father of my ancestors is something I have pondered for some time for reasons outlined in previous replies).
His first wife as you say was Isabel Massie. Isabel Massie dies sometime between 1842 and 1851. Francis and Isobel Massie had a child named John Anderson in 1842. Isobel Massie is possibly the Isobel born 1794 in Gardenstown to James Massie and Elizabeth Robertson. Witnesses George Robertson and James Gill of Gardenstown. With Isobel Massie still being alive at the time of Sarah Anderson's birth, it gives me doubts as to the two Francis' being one and the same. Of course it is not impossible, he may have been a naughty boy.
On Isabel Massie and Francis Anderson's OPR marriage it states that Francis was of Haddoleys and Isabel was of Cushnie. Witnesses were James Massie and John Bruce "witnesses in Logie".
Francis goes on to marry my 3x great-grandmother Isabella Anderson in December 1859. Francis is indexed as "Fras Anderson" here. There are no names of his previous spouse(s) on this MC unfortunately. His condition is noted as being a "widower" though.
I also can't find a marriage record between a Francis Anderson and a Helen Howat.
Is your Helen Howat the one born 1804 to William Howat and Jean Walker in Gamrie and Macduff?
I cannot find a death record for a Helen (or Ellen) Anderson other name Howat in Scotland at all. (See later on in this reply)
In the 1841 Census there is a Sarah Howatt aged approx 30 (ages were rounded in 1841) living at Cushnie, Gamrie. Cushnie is interesting as that's where Isabel Massie was residing in 1824 at the time of her marriage to Francis. Sarah could be a relation of your Helen. Also in this houshold are two Anderson girls;
Margaret Anderson aged 12, born Gamrie and Jane Anderson aged 8, born Gamrie. I am not sure if these Anderson girls are connected to my lot. There are two possible OPR baptisms for Margaret Anderson;
One born 1830 to a John Anderson and Mary Pirie in Gamrie and the other is ("my lot") born 1832 to Francis Anderson and Isabel Massie in Gamrie. Not sure on Jane, have tried searching for varients i.e. Jean etc but can't get a good match for who she might be.
Other surnames in this household are Wilson, Alexander and Legg.
I also noticed a possible match for your Sarah Anderson in the 1841 census in Gardestown, Gamrie.
She is aged 4 and the head of the house is a James Bruce aged 40 and a shoemaker. He is living a woman named Helen Bruce. I then found the following marriage record on SP;
BRUCE
JAMES
HELEN HOWAT/
29/07/1838
155/
30 599
Gamrie and Macduff
I believe this is your Helen Howat. She married James Bruce in 1838 at Gamrie and Macduff. Helen was living in Findon.
There is the following death certificate available on Scotland's People thatis a good candidate for her, also listed under Bruce.
HOWAT
HELEN
70
1878
147/ 157
Banff
My Francis Anderson's mother was a Christian Bruce. She lived to a great old age (approx 97) and was still alive in the 1841 and 1851 census, the latter named her place of birth as Aberdour, Aberdeenshire. This borders the parish of Gamrie and Macduff in Banffshire.
If indeed Sarah Anderson's father was a Franci(e)s Anderson, there is another possible candidate;
There was a Francis Anderson b.1806 to a James Anderson and Ann Pringle. This Francis was illegtimate; "Natural son. Mother in Northfield. Wit: Jas. Wilson & John Alexander both in Protstown"
Unsure if these are connected to mine at this stage.
But to sum up, I don't think your Helen Howat ever married a Francis Anderson and the information Sarah had was wrong.
If her biological father is indeed a Francis Anderson, it's possible he was the one born 1806 to James Anderson and Ann Pringle. I have seen the Pringle name before during my time researching my Banffshire Andersons, but I cannot place it at present.
It is enough to make you want to bang your head against a real brickwall.
Ohh yes, I have felt like this many many times. It's been a lot of work and I needed a lot of help from people here, which I'm grateful for. She's still a mystery! I've yet to find Isabella's DC. All I know is that she died sometime after her daughter Eliza's marriage in May 1884.
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The attached marriage certificate of Jane Anderson and James Farquhar in 1861, have the parents of Jane as Francis Anderson and Helen Howat!
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The attached marriage certificate of Jane Anderson and James Farquhar in 1861, have the parents of Jane as Francis Anderson and Helen Howat!
Hopefully, this relates to Kitty67's Francis Anderson. It certainly looks like a good candidate. If it is them it definitely reinforces that my Francis' and Kitty67's Francis Anderson are two different people. My Francis died in May 1863, and the marriage record you posted lists this Francis as deceased in 1861.
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This thread has inspired me to go back to finding Isabella's death certificate, and I appear to have found it!
I searched for females who died after 1884 (date of daughter, Elizabeth's marriage), surname Anderson, mother's maiden name; Ferrier and one popped up for the correct age. However, the name is Elizabeth Anderson. I took a chance on it, regardless. Details as follows;
Elizabeth Anderson
Widow of Francis Anderson, Farmer (correct)
Age: 60
Date and place of death: 13th April 1887, Watson Street, Banchory, Banchory-Ternan
Parents: John Anderson (sheep farmer) and Elizabeth Ferrier - both deceased
Informant: George Anderson (son) residing at 15 Yeats Lane, Aberdeen
Her father's first name is incorrect. Her father was a Robert Anderson, which corroborates with her marriage certificate of 1859 to Francis Anderson, where she names her parents as Robert Anderson and Elizabeth Ferrier. Additionally, there is an OPR baptism in 1826 for Isabel Anderson to Robert Anderson and Elizabeth Ferrier in Gamrie.
Her son, George, the informant, will have never met his grandfather Robert. He is probably the Robert Anderson, aged 30, who died in 1835 at Snubs of Troup, Gamrie. So this would likely account for that error.
Rosinish you were correct with your suggestion of Elizabeth. I was just looking in the wrong area. I don't know if the addition of the mother's maiden name on the index is recent for this period, but I don't recall seeing this before when searching for Isabella/Elizabeth's death.
She did have a sister named Elizabeth Anderson; however, she was born in 1834. I am confident that this record refers to Isabel/Isabella Anderson due to the husband's name, the name of the mother and the age.
It's amazing how much difference the addition of the mother's maiden name in the index makes in finding the death of someone with a common name.
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"Rosinish you were correct with your suggestion of Elizabeth. I was just looking in the wrong area. I don't know if the addition of the mother's maiden name on the index is recent for this period, but I don't recall seeing this before when searching for Isabella/Elizabeth's death.
It's amazing how much difference the addition of the mother's maiden name in the index makes in finding the death of someone with a common name."
Yes the addition of the mms on the indexes is quite recent although there were some recorded previously & I had always wondered why not them all.
Glad you've tied up that loose end, a great feeling! :)
I can also say I did find my chap too in 1923 (no mms) but he was recorded with a middle name which isn't on his 1873 BC, MC or census' ??? Not the 1st time I've come across an additional middle name!
I believe, out of all the people I know who have been doing the same line, I'm the only one to have his death details on my 10th attempt! ::)
I had such a large window for his death 1911 - 1935 which didn't help.
Annie
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Yes the addition of the mms on the indexes is quite recent although there were some recorded previously & I had always wondered why not them all.
Because until 1974 the original printed index books did not include this information.
First of all the printed books were digitised, which must in itself have been a big undertaking, to create the DIGROS (something like Digital Imaging of the General Registers of Scotland) system that was available in-house.
Then, with the advent of Scotland's People online, the information in DIGROS was transferred to form the index to that.
SP has been gradually adding mothers' maiden surnames for years, but this work must have got a great boost from the pandemic and lockdown, because it's obviously a task that staff could do at home. I hope that the momentum will not be lost once lockdown comes to an end!
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Thanks for the info. Forfarian,
I wasn't aware the indexed ones I'd previously come across were a work in progress but ditto...
"I hope that the momentum will not be lost once lockdown comes to an end!"
It will save us a lot of £s especially with scenarios like mine, when they died sometime after the 1911 census & a remarriage of the widow in 1935 having nothing else to narrow it down.
Fingers crossed :)
Annie
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I’m pleased you have also found your certificate Annie! It’s a great feeling as you say. I think I have bought about 25 incorrect Isabella Anderson (and variants) certs.
Another positive is possibly finding other children to a marriage. :)
Also thanks Forfarian for this info. Looking forward to adding more deaths to my tree, as morbid as that sounds. ;D
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Looking forward to adding more deaths to my tree, as morbid as that sounds. ;D
;D...That's awful!...Who on this earth would ever think like that ???...No-one on this forum! ;D
In the past, after buying a wrong cert. (same name) discovered someone in my tree with a 2nd wife who at the time I had no idea about i.e. £ not wasted, a good find :P
Annie
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Looking forward to adding more deaths to my tree, as morbid as that sounds. ;D
;D...That's awful!...Who on this earth would ever think like that ???...No-one on this forum! ;D
In the past, after buying a wrong cert. (same name) discovered someone in my tree with a 2nd wife who at the time I had no idea about i.e. £ not wasted, a good find :P
Annie
That was certainly lucky. I had a similar occurrence, but not with a certificate, with a cemetery. I moved to a village and took a walk around it as I knew my 2x great-grandparents were buried there. I found the grave and noticed the grave next to it. That other grave was for my 2x great-uncle and aunt from an entirely different branch.
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I remember quite a few yrs ago, I was meeting a chap for our 2nd date, he asked where I wanted to go...
Your local cemetery!!! ;D
He couldn't believe his ears, thought I was joking :o
It was a beautiful summer day, the cemetery was huge & a lovely relaxing walk round but...
I really wanted to find his g/mother who he never knew, not her name or anything until I pointed out who she was on his father's DC!
We had of course spoken about his genealogy along the way but we still laugh about it today as do his adult kids.
Annie
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Hi I have read the details here with interest. I am trying to research my possibly 4th Gt grandfather Francs Anderson who farmed at Haddoleys in Gamrie. I believe he had a child with Helen Howat. The child was Sarah Anderson b.c. 1837. Francis Anderson: I think this may be Sarah Anderson's father but I cannot find a record of any marriage between him and Helen Howat, who I believe to be Sarah's mother. There seems to be a link to the Massie family in Gamrie. Francis Anderson married Isabel Massie in 1824.
On Sarah Anderson's marriage cert it states Fa: Francis Anderson - farm servant (deceased) which would fit with his date of death. The cert also states Mo: Helen Anderson (nee Howat) Struggling to work this out.
However, Sarah's residence in 1851 is 1851 • Gamrie, Banffshire, Scotland
House servant living with James Massie and Jean Kiloch (Killock?). Elizabeth Anderson is recorded as lodger not servant which implies she was related to James Massie (poss daughter of his sister Isabel)? The Massie/ Anderson/ Bruce families in this area do seem to be closely entwined! If anyone can shed any light that would be fantastic. Many thanks
Hi Kitty, I know it's been a long while since you posted here but hopefully you will see this reply as it may relate to your Sarah Anderson.
I've been looking at the Banff Kirk Sessions today and I noticed an entry for 1860 image number 276. You can view this for free on Scotland's People. It relates to a Sarah Anderson of Gardenstown (latterly servant in Banff) and fornication with a John Clark, a shoemaker, originally of Fyvie and latterly of Gamrie. It was mentioned that it was her second offence, and this entry was in relation to a child born "July last"
This is the reference: Banff kirk session, Minutes (1849-1869), Accounts (1851-1869), CH2/1109/7