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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: lydiaann on Wednesday 27 June 18 15:30 BST (UK)
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We are seeking information on the marriage of Eve Karslake to James Craven, certainly after WWII, probably in Western Australia. It appears that there may be some electoral register records relating to James in Mingenew from 1963; Eve apparently does not (so far) appear in the records until 1968, so it's possible they met and married later in life. Eve, an author, wrote a book about James' experiences in WWII - he was imprisoned in (the then) Thailand by the Japanese while serving as a commissioned officer in the Indian Service; the book is “A Kind of Destiny: The True Story of One Man's Experiences during World War II in Japanese POW camps, Changi, and on the Railway of Death; the partition of India and the Malayan Emergency" and is written in the first person, apparently. James died on 27 July, 2001 and is buried in Geraldton (info from FindAGrave). Is there anyone in WA that might be able to assist with Eve's and James' lives, please? James is my 1st cousin once removed. Thanks!
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Eve also wrote a book "Twenty years in Mingenew" https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/27939740?q&versionId=33734061
I can't see a marriage for them in W.A. on http://www.wamarriage.info/ This site has marriages up until 1965. (There is a different marriage for a James CRAVEN in 1944)
Ros
adding : From Ryerson Index http://ryersonindex.org/search.php
Evelyn (Eve) Mary Karslake CRAVEN died in Jan 2012, late of Geraldton, death notice in the West Australian 30 Jan, 2012
Evelyn CRAVEN died 24 Jan 2012 at SJOG, death notice in West Australian 30 Jan 2012
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From Ryerson Index http://ryersonindex.org/search.php
Evelyn (Eve) Mary Karslake CRAVEN died in Jan 2012, late of Geraldton, death notice in the West Australian 30 Jan, 2012
Evelyn CRAVEN died 24 Jan 2012 at SJOG, death notice in West Australian 30 Jan 2012
Notices: http://www.westannouncements.com.au/obituaries/thewest-au/obituary-search.aspx?daterange=99999&firstname=Eve&lastname=Craven&countryid=11&stateid=202&affiliateid=3057
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Hi,
Why not try contacting the, Geraldton Historical Society and see if they can help.
http://www.geraldtonhistoricalsociety.org.au/contact.php
Gerry
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:)
Perhaps there was a change of name via deed poll, or simply by becoming known by, rather than a formal marriage.
JM
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Thanks so much for that, I'll get cracking with those ideas. rosball, was there any further information on the other James Craven marriage for 1944...was it in WA for example? Actually, forget that; I should try and find out when James was freed by the Japanese as 1944 was probably too early for him to have been freed, got out of the Army (considering the war was still on) and emigrated by then, so I'm guessing it's not him. There were a lot of my Cravens who emigrated to Australia from the 1850s onwards, most of them in Victoria James is the first I have heard of going to WA. I shall certainly try the Historical Society (is there one for every town in Australia?)
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hi Lydiaann,
The 1944 marriage was in W.A. and on the link I gave you.
1944 James CRAVEN married Elizabeth D BOWE in Perth reg 1668
Here is the marriage notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article44818376
CRAVEN-BOWE.--On Saturday. July 8 (?) at St Andrew's Presbyterian Church,
Perth, James (RAN), second son of Mr and Mrs E. Craven, of 16 Hampshire
street, Victoria Park, to Betty, only daughter of Mr and Mrs T Bowe of 127 Ninth Avenue,
Inglewood.
Ros
adding : Elizabeth Doris CRAVEN's burial in 1999 http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KC00137804
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Here is the above James CRAVEN's WW2 record in RAN (born 1922 Perth, W.A.)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m9y/
This seems likely to be his burial in 1972
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KC00039491
Ros
adding : all the larger towns and most of the smaller towns have historical societies or family history groups. They are a wonderful source of information and the volunteers are very helpful.
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Interred at Utakurra Cemetery Geraldton
CRAVEN , James, 19 Dec 1914 - 27 Jul 2001. Husband of Eve
James in the RAN was born 1922, Perth and was not a POW.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=N&veteranId=1101420
Cando
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:)
............. he was imprisoned ... by the Japanese while serving as a commissioned officer in the Indian Service; ....
JM
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Yes Cando I realised that this was a different James CRAVEN but Lydiaann did ask for the details of the marriage etc as he could be one of her relatives.
Ros
adding :
From electoral rolls the other James CRAVEN's parents were Enoch and Margaret CRAVEN.
Enoch was born in Liverpool England. Here is his WW1 service https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=3458172
From W.A. BDM http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/
Death 1956 Enoch CRAVEN, age 72, father Alfred, mother Sarah, at Perth, reg# 927
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I can't access further info as it requires a subscription.
J. Craven
Military Year 1943
Regiment Indian Army
Rank 2nd Lieutenant
Cando
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Some of Enoch and Margaret CRAVEN's children (apart from the other James ) were :
Lena CRAVEN http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article32575861
George Hazelgrove CRAVEN http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=775694
Alfred William CRAVEN http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article47366984 http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=742466
Ros
(adding : lots more to be found but I'll wait until Lydiaann tells us whether it is relevant)
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:)
............. he was imprisoned ... by the Japanese while serving as a commissioned officer in the Indian Service; ....
JM
I wonder why JM thought this was funny ??? Such a strange sense of humour ... ??? It certainly wasn't funny to be imprisoned by the Japanese and as a commissioned officer in the Indian service he played an important and serious role in the War.
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:)
............. he was imprisoned ... by the Japanese while serving as a commissioned officer in the Indian Service; ....
JM
I wonder why JM thought this was funny ??? Such a strange sense of humour ... ??? It certainly wasn't funny to be imprisoned by the Japanese and as a commissioned officer in the Indian service he played an important and serious role in the War.
Why do you consider I thought it funny ...
JM R2M
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I have no idea - it doesn't seen funny to me in any context.
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I have no idea - it doesn't seen funny to me in any context.
Ros, I have no idea what you are rambling on about.
JM R2M
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Yes Cando I realised that this was a different James CRAVEN but Lydiaann did ask for the details of the marriage etc as he could be one of her relatives.
Ros
adding :
From electoral rolls the other James CRAVEN's parents were Enoch and Margaret CRAVEN.
Enoch was born in Liverpool England. Here is his WW1 service https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=3458172
From W.A. BDM http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/
Death 1956 Enoch CRAVEN, age 72, father Alfred, mother Sarah, at Perth, reg# 927
Ros, please stop editing this post.
JM
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Honestly Ros. Stop creating issues on the board. Not necessary.
James CRAVEN's headstone in the Utukurra Cemetery at Geraldton.
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I can't access further info as it requires a subscription.
J. Craven
Military Year 1943
Regiment Indian Army
Rank 2nd Lieutenant
Cando
Subscription or member of the Church of LDS to see image?
Sue
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Further info about Enoch CRAVEN (father of other James CRAVEN), here is an obit to Elizabeth SHARRETT who was sister to Enoch and Alfred CRAVEN, also born in Liverpool, England. It gives quite a bit of family info among the mourners etc,
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article83510728
Ros
adding from W.A. BDM
Death 1964 Alfred CRAVEN, father unknown, mother Sarah, at Perth, reg# 1657
Death 1930 Elizabeth SHARRETT, father unknown, mother unknown, at Perth, reg# 1027
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I can't access further info as it requires a subscription.
J. Craven
Military Year 1943
Regiment Indian Army
Rank 2nd Lieutenant
Cando
Subscription or member of the Church of LDS to see image?
Sue
Sue it's Ancestry.com to which I have a world sub but one needs to pay extra to see the record. I can't recall the name of the linked site now.
Cheers
Cando
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This suggests to me that James was born in England and his headstone at Geraldton has his dob as 19 Dec 1914.
http://www.pows-of-japan.net/guestbook2/guestbook.php
My late husband, James Craven, joined the British Army (Royal Army Medical Corps) in 1935. After serving in Britain and India he was later sent to Malaya and Singapore (commissioned into the RIASC). He was captured by the Japanese and sent to Changi. From there he went, in June 1942, to work on the Burma Railway. He actually volunteered thinking he could maybe have a better chance of escaping, and was in the first group to be sent to work on the railway. He recorded many of his trials, and those of the other POWs, enabling me to write about his war years. ("A Kind of Destiny" by Eve Karslake Craven - now out of print.) Thank you, Peter, for keeping this history alive.
We are not closer to finding the date of marriage for James and Eve and IF they married in WA it was possibly between 1966 and 1968 when they first appear on the electoral rolls.
Could we please stick to the topic and not research every other CRAVEN family which may nor may not be related.
Cando
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A public tree for James CRAVEN details his wife as
Evelyn Mary HARRIS 1933–2012
Birth 13 May 1933 Woolacombe, Devon, England
Cando
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Evelyn's parents detailed six years after her birth were John Karslake HARRIS born c1901 and Evelyn M HARRIS born c1910.
Cando
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Chatters: I had not realised when I asked what I thought was a reasonable question that it would cause such mayhem amongst you all...I did NOT intend for that. First of all, I did make one small error, for which I apologize: James served with the Indian Army Service Corps, obviously missing out those 2 words caused some amusement, but I know not why. My question was, was there any information at all on the marriage of James and Eve(lyn) Karslake? In my last post, I corrected myself about whether the 1944 marriage was his as he was imprisoned in Siam (Thailand) in 1943 and freedom prior to the end of the war (?virtually impossible), emigration and marriage would have been too quick for it to be true.
I am going to check with the Historial Society. And thank you for the information regarding Evelyn's parentage, although it is a little outside of the family tree. As far as the other Craven is concerned, they are not part of my family - or if they are, the gap is so wide as to be irrelevant.
apart from letting you kind people know whether I find out more from the Historical Society, I shall consider this topic closed - and thank you again for the assistance.
lydiaann
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Thank you for your kind explanation. May I note that I did not consider I was making any amusing comment, and I have not had an explanation as to why Ros considers that I thought it funny when I posted :
:)
............. he was imprisoned ... by the Japanese while serving as a commissioned officer in the Indian Service; ....
JM
I wonder why JM thought this was funny ??? Such a strange sense of humour ... ??? It certainly wasn't funny to be imprisoned by the Japanese and as a commissioned officer in the Indian service he played an important and serious role in the War.
Why do you consider I thought it funny ...
JM R2M
My older brother was born prior to WWII, I was born 1947, and the rest of my siblings are younger than me. Changi will suffice as the explanation. I have many contributions on the Armed Forces Board here at RChat.
JM
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I think it was just the smileyface emoji and nothing else written as a reply, your having requoted the bit where I had said about James being imprisoned while serving in the Indian Service, the latter 2 words of which you had highlighted. Still, let's forget all the wrangling, eh? Life's too short.
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I think it was just the smileyface emoji and nothing else written as a reply, your having requoted the bit where I had said about James being imprisoned while serving in the Indian Service, the latter 2 words of which you had highlighted. Still, let's forget all the wrangling, eh? Life's too short.
Perhaps if you were to check your Opening Post, and then read the replies that follow, up to and including my posts at reply nos #4 and #9 you will notice they are part of an ongoing 'conversation' ... so by reply #5, you write re the other James Craven marriage for 1944 ... 'Actually, forget that; I should try and find out when James was freed by the Japanese as 1944 was probably too early for him ... got out of the Army ...."
You will notice Ros at reply #7 mentions RAN .... as in Royal Australian Navy .... but your OP already noted he was a Commissioned Officer in the Indian Service, and imprisoned Changi...
You will notice Cando at reply #8 (and less than half an hour after Ros #7) has found your James, giving you a) his DoB, b) his relationship to Eve, and c) noting the chap that Ros found at #7 was not a POW, and provides a live link to the WWII nominal roll summary.
I was next to reply, and somehow, hours later, and several posts later, Ros has mis-interpreted my reply, and then later, you have offered an explanation for Ros' post in respect of mine. Meanwhile, Ros has not responded to my direct question.
I am concerned. You see, the smiley I used is NOT a smiley to do with 'amuse' or to entertain, or to indicate the poster is attempting 'humour' .... That smiley is perhaps based on the first smiley design ever.... It is usual to accept that smiley ( :) ) as the smiley for friendly greetings of a general nature. RChat offers other smileys including:
Wink, Cheesy, Grin, Angry, Sad, Shocked, Cool, Huh, ....I leave it to you to go through them all...
Anyway, your reply comments on my emphasis on the words I quoted from your OP... I fail to understand why you determined that I was critical of your abbreviated expression re Indian Service ... it is an expression that family history buffs of long standing would use or be familiar with in respect of POW research from WWII.
Ros replied at #10, and that particular reply initially read 'Yes I realised that this was a different James .... " And several hours later, that post was modified to read "Yes Cando I realised that this was ....", hence my post #17 where I asked Ros to please stop editing this post.
But back to the find by Cando re your James.
Cando at reply #11 finds his Military year info and notes it requires a subscription. So, from reply #8 finding your chap's dob and then #9 noting Indian Service and #11 finding there's a subscription site with further info ...
Ros continues to post info at #12 which is not to do with the chap or his wife mentioned in the OP or at #5 where we learn we are not needed to seek out other sightings of other CRAVEN families. However, Ros does ADD to that post "lots more to be found but I'll wait until Lydiann tells us whether it is relevant" ...
I now mention that I have not found where anyone else posted on this thread in respect of those other Craven sightings ...
I again mention also that after I had posted at #9, Ros posted twice more, before THREE HOURS after my #9, Ros then posted at #13 wondering why I thought this was funny and writing that I had a strange sense of humour .... I NOTE that by asking 'WHY' it was Ros who presumed that I thought it was funny.
I have posted asking Ros to explain her post, #14 "Why do you consider I thought it funny" to which Ros replied #15 "I have no idea - it doesn't seen funny to me in any context". I leave it to you to read my response to that (#16).
Throughout all those posts, Cando and sparrett kept seeking the actual document that Cando had noted back at #11. At reply #22 Cando gives further info about the couple who were ought to have been looking for.
I now note that Ros has been online quite recently, but has not posted on this thread. I also note that I have received a PM from an RChatter who has NOT posted on this thread, and who is rarely online. They mention that back around 13/14 May THIS YEAR, they used the R2M button and a Moderator removed an entire post from a thread. It seems the post was extremely nasty and directed to me. I am aware of other posts where Ros has hectored me, or given me instruction to order a particular NSW BDM document or demanded I apologise.
I have checked and I advise that on my 'Ignore List' there are THREE RChatters, including rosball.
I agree that Life's too short ... and I add, there's no need to hector anyone ever.
I note you have completed the Thread.
JM
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JM,
Please remove your comments which are critical of Lydiaann. Lydiaann was a good sport and tried to smooth over the wrangling and is in no way responsible for any of it.
A poster is free to ask for info on any side issues that she/he wants answered. Others are free to ignore the responses to the side issue.
I obviously blocked you some years ago (after that nasty pm) and that also means I don't have to read your posts which is why I did not see yours immediately. If you did not mean it to be a joke then I apologise. (adding : Why didn't you just say so?)
You may leave your remarks criticising me but I do ask that you remove those critical of Lydiaann as they are unwarranted.
Ros
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Not sure if I am on track or not here. I am wondering if this marriage could have occurred in another country, then they migrated together to WA. Our Australian servicemen come back home and get discharged. However since he wasn't in the Australian army, could he have been discharged overseas then married? Possibly to someone that he already knew before the war.
Regards
Jennaya
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I understand what you are saying Jennaya. It's already been stated that no-one can find the marriage of Eve(lyn) and James. As he would have been in his late 20s at the time of his imprisonment, it is possible he emigrated later in life to Australia and they met then. The problem with the UK available archives (on-line, that is...we'd have to travel all over UK, I think, to follow this family!) is that between the 1911 census and the 1939 Register there are limited Electoral Rolls and Directories, although more are coming on line every week. Remember that in those days, not many people actually had telephones even! James could even have been married, left his wife and met Eve and maybe they never even married. However, we do know where he ended up and I am today contacting the Geraldton Historical Society and see if they have any local knowledge there. But thanks for thinking of me - and I am closing this as completed although I will post again if I find anything else about this couple.
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Hi Lydiaann
Hopefully you will have some success with the historical societies. Best wishes.
Regards
Jennaya
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:)
One of my elderly living relatives was a librarian who was part of the team that set up the Kingswood offices of the NSW State Archives during its separation from the NSW State Library. Once that had been completed, he was seconded to Canberra and the National Library of Australia. He is not a member of RChat, but he regularly follows threads that I contribute to. He has been on the phone to me several times over the weekend, and again just now.
This time, he is very pleased, as has positive info to share.
Eve was also noted here:
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/934233?lookfor=mingenew&offset=34&max=39
He adds that that mentions not just an author’s name, but also, a street address for the publisher and my rellie says PLEASE FOLLOW UP and let us know if you are successful. NLA is usually very helpful.
JM
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Hi Lydiaann,
Here is another death notice for Eve
CRAVEN (KARSLAKE) Eve:
A gracious English lady who was the trusted and loyal secretary to the late
Sir Eric Smart OVE of Erregulla Springs, Mingenew. Author of several books.
Wife of Jim Craven (dec). Long term resident of Mingenew and
Geraldton. Helen Cooksey (nee Smart).
The two women co-authored a book https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/33031151?q&versionId=40417014
Do you have access to the other two books which Eve wrote?
Ros