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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: davidm_uk on Monday 02 July 18 14:17 BST (UK)
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For Charles Bright I have a birth certificate: Luton, Bedford & Hertford; Charles Bright, born 2 June 1861 Upper George Street, Luton; mother Charlotte Bright of Upper George Street, Luton, registered 19 June 1861; (no fathers information given).
I have the marriage certificate for Charles to Elizabeth Gardner; married 22 March 1866, St Lukes, Middlesex; Charles aged 23, father's name Joseph Bright (deceased).
I have Charles and his family in baptism records, census returns, 1939 Register up to his death in 1941. Most of the census return have him born in Islington, except for two that show it as Luton. In 1939 he is still in Hackney, with family members.
I have his death certificate in Luton, 11 Jan 1941, with daughter as witness, although I can find no relatives in Luton at that time. The addresses on the death cert don't lead to any family.
For Charle's parents:
I have a marriage certificate in Luton, 12 Oct 1857: Joseph Bright aged 21, bachelor, a bricklayer, residence Luton, father Jon Bright a labourer; to Charlotte Marlow aged 24, spinster, residence Luton, father Joseph Marlow a labourer. I have baptism entries for both, in or near Luton at about the right dates.
I have a death certificate for Joseph Bright: Luton, 7 February 1860 at Upper George Street Luton; aged 23, bricklayers labourer, died of consumption, witness is an unrelated person.
In the 1861 census (7 April 1861) Charlotte Bright appears as a widow living alone in Luton. I can't find her in later census entries, or a death entry for her.
I have a quite consistant picture of both Joseph's and Charlotte's family lines going back before 1857, and their other descendants.
So two problems I have:
1. Charles appears to have been born a year and four months after the death of his "father" Joseph. So could his birth have been registered VERY late or did Charlotte lie to Charles about his father (hence the name Joseph on the marriage cert for Charles).
2. I can find no trace of Charles, either in Luton or living with grandparents or other relatives in the 1871 census. (He first appears in the 1881 census with first wife Mary Ann in Tottenham. I have an index entry for this marriage Q1 1871, in Islington).
Any help with this brick wall much appreciated.
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What is Charlotte maiden name on Charles birth certificate is it Marlow ?
Jennifer
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The birth registration doesn't give a mothers maiden name but if she was trying to cover up the fact her husband had died over 9 months ago maybe she wouldn't have given one?
Is Charles age consistent because when he marries he is 23 so born c1863 and that ties in with 1901 census.
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I can find no trace of Charles, either in Luton or living with grandparents or other relatives in the 1871 census. (He first appears in the 1881 census with first wife Mary Ann in Tottenham. I have an index entry for this marriage Q1 1871, in Islington).
He would be too young to marry in 1871 wouldn't he? He is only 23 in 1886 some 15 years later.
Even if he lowered his age to 23 it doesn't compute :-\
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Charlotte a widow is living in Jones Yard Luton 1861 census and would have been seven months pregnant.
The family home from her husbands death and where son was registered in June 1861, Upper George Street, may support the idea that she was an unmarried mother and left the family home until the baby was born.
Jennifer
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Looking at the 1861 census I see that the name has been corrected to Bright from Wright. The first letter of the surname doesn't look like any of the Bs on the page to me - others may disagree ?
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Hard to tell isn't it, could be a very inky blobbed B squashed up.
Links back to a Charlotte Wright 17 lodger in Luton also in same trade bonnet making. Not sure :-\
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Thanks for all the replies so far, I'll respond to them point by point here:
@jennifer c "What is Charlotte maiden name on Charles birth certificate is it Marlow ?" The only name given on the birth cert is Charlotte Bright.
@Milliepede "Is Charles age consistent because when he marries he is 23 so born c1863 and that ties in with 1901 census." In the marriage cert to Elizabeth Gardner in 1886, and all the census from 1881 to 1911 his age is consistent with being born in 1863. In the 1939 register his year of birth is 1861, and the family shown there is consistent with all of those census entries. There is a Charles Bright born in 1863, but with no Luton connections. From other people (via Ancestry) I'm convinced that the 1863 Charles is a different person.
@Millipede "He would be too young to marry in 1871 wouldn't he? He is only 23 in 1886 some 15 years later. Even if he lowered his age to 23 it doesn't compute" DUH typo, marriage was Q1 1881, my mistake :-[ He is in 1881 census, aged 20, with Mary Ann Bright (nee Collins). They have a son Charles Frederick Bright in 1882, and he appears in later census as son of Charles with Elizabeth (he's shown as either Charles or Charles F).
@Christine53 "Looking at the 1861 census I see that the name has been corrected to Bright from Wright. The first letter of the surname doesn't look like any of the Bs on the page to me - others may disagree ?" Ancestry have transcribed it as Wright, but having looked very closely I think that the image has been changed to Bright (but I could be wrong - or just wishful thinking).
@Milliepede "Links back to a Charlotte Wright 17 lodger in Luton also in same trade bonnet making. Not sure" Yes I saw that, but haven't found anything else to prove or disprove that she is the person in the 1861 census. Luton is full of people in the hat trade around that time, they seem to have migrated in from surrounding villages for the work.
Some other possibilities I wonder about:
Charlotte died after the birth of Charles in 1861 and before the 1871 census and Charles is then with another family, but I can't find a death entry for her. I've checked census entries for Charlotte and Joseph's parents and siblings but not found Charles there.
Charlotte remarried before 1871, and the surname would be different by the time of the 1871 census, but then Charles reverts to his birth surname by his first marriage in 1881. I can't find a remarriage for Charlotte.
Thank you again for your thoughts so far. :)
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I have a death certificate for Joseph Bright: Luton, 7 February 1860 at Upper George Street Luton; aged 23, bricklayers labourer, died of consumption, witness is an unrelated person.
Who was the witness just out of interest? It might be useful or provide a helpful link you never know.
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I have his death certificate in Luton, 11 Jan 1941, with daughter as witness, although I can find no relatives in Luton at that time.
Died at 11a Dunstable Road. Which was the address of St Mary's Hospital (formerly the local workhouse). Left a will. Have you got it?
On your tree you have a copy of the 1886 marriage of Charles Bright and Elizabeth Gardner, and it says he was a bachelor.
You also have him in 1871 as a 24* year old living in Tottenham, married to Mary, so what happened to her? There's a death in Barnet in 1884 of a Mary Ann Bright, age 26, not much else!
*Or is it really 20?
John
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There's a death in Barnet in 1884 of a Mary Ann Bright, age 26
Baptism at Friern Barnet, 22 January 1884
Charles Frederick
parents Charles Frederick + Mary Ann Bright
abode 3 Sussex Terrace
father a Labourer
In the margin - aged 1 yr 7 mo
That's in the same quarter as the Barnet death registration.
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@Millipede "Who was the witness just out of interest? It might be useful or provide a helpful link you never know." Witness was Mary Barrett. She is in the 1861 census with spouse William and son Charles living in Upper George Street, so maybe a neighbour at the time of Joseph's death. I don't see anything that might be relevant on that page, or adjacent pages.
@jonw65 "Died at 11a Dunstable Road. Which was the address of St Mary's Hospital (formerly the local workhouse). Left a will. Have you got it?" I didn't know that 11a Dunstable Road was a hospital/workhouse - thanks! [added: Union Workhouse, Luton (1835 - 1930)] Cause of death was senile decay, which fits. Yes I have the will, plus a subsequent Deed of Family Arrangement which lists all of his children and their addresses, and these tie in with the 1939 register entries.
"On your tree you have a copy of the 1886 marriage of Charles Bright and Elizabeth Gardner, and it says he was a bachelor." Yes, but he has son Charles Frederick born before that marriage, and GRO Search gives his sons's mother's maiden name as Collins, hence my interest in finding out about her (but not enough interest to buy the marriage cert to check the details).
"You also have him in 1871 as a 24* year old living in Tottenham, *Or is it really 20?" As noted previously, my mistype, he married in Q1 1881 and appears aged 20 in the 1881 census in Tottenham.
"There's a death in Barnet in 1884 of a Mary Ann Bright, age 26, not much else!
Baptism at Friern Barnet, 22 January 1884
Charles Frederick
parents Charles Frederick + Mary Ann Bright
abode 3 Sussex Terrace
father a Labourer
In the margin - aged 1 yr 7 mo
That's in the same quarter as the Barnet death registration." So maybe Mary Ann dies then Charles remarries in 1866. Charles Frederick Bright appears in the 1939 register in Stoke Newington, born 3/6/1882, with father Charles born 4/7/1861.
So I'm still missing Charles from the 1871 census, and have the issues surrounding his parents.
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"There's a death in Barnet in 1884 of a Mary Ann Bright, age 26, not much else!
Baptism at Friern Barnet, 22 January 1884
Charles Frederick
parents Charles Frederick + Mary Ann Bright
abode 3 Sussex Terrace
father a Labourer
In the margin - aged 1 yr 7 mo"
The Charles Bright (b1861 Luton) never appears in any documents that I have as Charles Frederick Bright, so I think that Friern Barnet Bright is a different family. My Charles Frederick remains with the family in the 1891-1911 census, he marries Maud Florence Rayment in 1914, and they are both in the 1939 Register at the same address as Charles (b1901) in Stoke Newington.