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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: Baylis on Thursday 05 July 18 15:24 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I’m in the unusual position (for me) of having a lot of information on these particular ancestors, but i’m still unable to find much about them.
The name of my great great grandmother (Mary Ann Thomas) seems to be so common in the area at the time, that I decided to abandon the search for her birth certificate and head straight for her parents’ marriage certificate.
This is where it gets really frustrating, as I appear to have some reliable information on them, but I cannot find the marriage.
The source of my information is from a brief family history written in 1959 by a great uncle of mine when he was retired (it is a real treasure). The ancestors I am currently searching for happen to be his mother and maternal grandparents.
I have been able to back up some of his information, from his parents’ marriage certificate and from the 1881 census. So I am pretty confident what he writes is accurate.
The marriage I am looking for is between Thomas Thomas (a tailor) born 1840 in Haverfordwest and Elizabeth John/Johns born 1847 in Wiston, Pembrokeshire. It is believed the marriage took place around 1866, as their first child (Mary Ann) was born 1st May 1867.
I can't think what I might be doing wrong. Both appear to have been born, lived and died in the same area. So I don’t think it’s a case of their being married somewhere else.
I’d be very grateful for any suggestions. I hope this comment isn’t too long and rambling.
Regards,
Claire.
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Any chance that Thomas Thomas also used other Christian names?
Louisa Maud
Would it be possible that Thomas Thomas might be recorded as marrying Elizabeth JONES 1868 Pembroke?
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Why not start proving who he was?
Call it cross-checking?
Why not tell us about him?We can help?
R
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Is it possible you could search church ledgers within that area if you knew where they lived
LM
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Again it's worth bearing in mind that like today not all couples living as man and wife actually married so there may not be a marriage to find.
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Hi this is the 1881 census for the Thomas family:-
Thomas 39 occ Tailor b Haverfordwest
Elizabeth 35 b Wiston
Mary A 14 b Wiston
Annie 1 b Haverfordwest
William 1 b Haverfordwest
Bit of a gap between children's births?
Keyboard86
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Oh, good point Milliepede. I didn’t consider that at all.
Yes, that is the census Keyboard 86. My great Uncle (who wrote the family history I keep referring to) does give some information on children who died very young. So that might account for some gaps.
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I hesitated to mention it as sometimes it doesn't go down well but I see so many posts looking for marriages that may not exist.
Thank you for not taking offence!
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Where were they 1871
LM
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I have no other censuses for them Louisa Maud, Isn’t it crazy.
Do people really mind Milliepede? These things happen.
It reminds me of a quote that I will have to paraphrase... something like when a lady accused her maid of having a baby out of wedlock the girl answered, ‘but, pardon me Ma’am, it is only a little one.’ ☺️
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This is interesting
1871
RG10/5527 FOLIO 80 PAGE 9
Stephen Thomas 59
Mary 69
Thomas Thomas 29 TAILOR
What thinkest though ??
Louisa Maud
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First marriage? Thomas Thomas, 25, tailor, of North Gate, Haverfordwest (father Thomas Thomas, labourer) married Caroline Christmas, 21, (father William Christmas, shoemaker) on 3 June 1865 at St Martin's Haverfordwest.
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This is interesting
1871
RG10/5527 FOLIO 80 PAGE 9
Stephen Thomas 59
Mary 69
Thomas Thomas 29 TAILOR
What thinkest though ??
Louisa Maud
On a brief first look this actually looks very promising. Not only are they in St Martin’s parish, but the address is given as Crowhill Road.
My great uncle had it as Coleshill and from somewhere or other I thought it was Cowshill. 😱 definitely worth a closer look.
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Child Elizabeth Mary Thomas reg 1869 Haverfordwest MMN Christmas, various births Thomas MMN Christmas
Louisa Maud
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First marriage? Thomas Thomas, 25, tailor, of North Gate, Haverfordwest (father Thomas Thomas, labourer) married Caroline Christmas, 21, (father William Christmas, shoemaker) on 3 June 1865 at St Martin's Haverfordwest.
Thank you Shaun J,
I’ll have a closer look. I’m really hoping this isn’t them as I want the line of Thomas Thomases to stop 😂
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Child Elizabeth Mary Thomas reg 1869 Haverfordwest MMN Christmas, various births Thomas MMN Christmas
Louisa Maud
Does MMN stand for Mother’s maiden name?
This is getting stranger and stranger. This matches up with what Shaun J found.
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If Thomas Thomas married Caroline Christmas then there might not be a second marriage to Elizabeth and Thomas till perhaps much later if he became free, There are numerous marriages between Thomas/John and Christmas
Louisa Maud
Yes MMN mother's maiden name
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I think Thomas Thomas with a Caroline on 1871 is a collier
LM
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Getting confused, so earlier children for Thomas, with mmn Christmas, so the Jones/Johns marriage came later than 1869, and 1871 Thomas looks to be unmarried?
One to look at William John 60, Ann John 64, Mary 3 Grandchild
Hareshead Cottage, Wiston
RG10/5529/6/5
Keyboard86
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This might be worth looking at :-\
Marriages Dec qtr 1877
ANNAL Mary Susan Ignore - married Ebenezer Hughes
DAVIES John
EVAN Margaret
JAMES William
John Elizabeth
Thomas Thomas
Haverfordwest 11a 1283
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Do you have Mary Ann's birth certificate ? There is a Mary Ann Elizabeth John born Haverfordwest in the June quarter of 1867.
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Do you have Mary Ann's birth certificate ? There is a Mary Ann Elizabeth John born Haverfordwest in the June quarter of 1867.
From the GRO Index this Mary Ann had no maiden name shown for her mother.
Keyboard86
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Do you have Mary Ann's birth certificate ? There is a Mary Ann Elizabeth John born Haverfordwest in the June quarter of 1867.
Shaun J,
I was looking for a Mary Ann Elizabeth Thomas (she is named as Thomas on her marriage cert).
Is it possible, if her mother was unmarried that they would have used the mother’s maiden name of Johns? I have no idea how that would have worked back then.
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I don’t know how I will ever pin them down if they have such common names for the region AND they were unmarried.
I’ll just have to keep going through it.
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There is that possible marriage in 1877.
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Yes Shaun J, I only just went back to look at that properly. It looks really promising. Elizabeth Johns’ name is unique enough to give me some confidence.
I NEVER would have thought of a later marriage for them (or no marriage at all) without all of you finding these things.
I know to always take family stories with a massive pinch of salt, but I still didn’t think outside of the small gap I thought they would be in.
Thank you all so much for your help so far. I really appreciate it.
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This might be worth looking at :-\
Marriages Dec qtr 1877
ANNAL Mary Susan Ignore - married Ebenezer Hughes
DAVIES John
EVAN Margaret
JAMES William
John Elizabeth
Thomas Thomas
Haverfordwest 11a 1283
Oo, sorry Rosie99. I thought I had answered this suggestion earlier, but somehow I mustn’t have pressed ‘post’ properly.
This looks very promising. This is the only place I have seen their two names together, other than In my great uncle’s notes.
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Hi again, the William/Ann in 1871 with Grandchild Mary, look to be here in 1851 census:-
William John 30?
Ann 41
Mary 18
Robert 11
Thomas 8
ELIZABETH 5
Mary Adams 85
Residing Hard Dwelling, Wiston
Keyboard86
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Hi again, the William/Ann in 1871 with Grandchild Mary, look to be here in 1851 census:-
William John 30?
Ann 41
Mary 18
Robert 11
Thomas 8
ELIZABETH 5
Mary Adams 85
Residing Hard Dwelling, Wiston
Keyboard86
Thank you Keyboard86.
I didn’t answer you either when you posted the last census, did I? Sorry about that. I was busy making notes, I thought I had answered when I hadn’t.
I’ll check this one too now, Wiston looks really promising. Thank you very much.
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Hi again, and at the Hareshead Cottage
Wiston address in 1861,
William John 46
Ann 56
Mary Davies 28 Daughter
Ema John 5 Grandaughter
Ann Davies 1 Grandaughter
Census ref RG09/4165/49/4
Keyboard86
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Thank you Keyboard86.
You are way ahead of me. I’m still frantically writing up my notes 😂
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I think Thomas Thomas might have a bit of a reputation (if yours is the Crowhill Road resident)
30th April 1862
HAVERFORDWEST COUNTY COURT. MONDAY. [BEFORE HENRY RIDGARD BAGSHAWE, ESQ., JUDGE.] Martha Williams v. Thomas Thomas.-This was an action brought for the recovery of £1, money lent. The defendant did not appear. The Plaintiff deposed that she lent the money at different times, and produced letters from the defendant, in which he admitted the amount to be due. The Judge: Was this a love affair? The Plaintiff, with much reluctance, answered in the affirmative. The Judge: Where does the defendant live ? Plaintiff: He lives at the Crowhill-road. The Judge, in ordering payment in a month, observed: I suppose you cannot make it up in any other way ? Plaintiff: No, sir.
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Wow! That must be him. That’s an amazing find, thank you.
He ‘got around’ a bit for a one-legged Tailor. (I don’t know if he was one-legged at this point 😉).
My great uncle Ernest wrote a short entry about him in his family annals.
Apparently the family believed him to be prosperous at some point, as they thought he owned the houses on each side of his own. But at the time of his death the other houses were found to be so heavily mortgaged that they were worthless. He drank heavily and Great Uncle Ernest writes that he was very aware that his mum was much more fond of her mother than her father Thomas, although Ernest couldn’t remember what the source of that was.
So this all fits very well. Fascinating. Thank you.
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I think Thomas Thomas might have a bit of a reputation (if yours is the Crowhill Road resident)
30th April 1862
HAVERFORDWEST COUNTY COURT. MONDAY. [BEFORE HENRY RIDGARD BAGSHAWE, ESQ., JUDGE.] Martha Williams v. Thomas Thomas.-This was an action brought for the recovery of £1, money lent. The defendant did not appear. The Plaintiff deposed that she lent the money at different times, and produced letters from the defendant, in which he admitted the amount to be due. The Judge: Was this a love affair? The Plaintiff, with much reluctance, answered in the affirmative. The Judge: Where does the defendant live ? Plaintiff: He lives at the Crowhill-road. The Judge, in ordering payment in a month, observed: I suppose you cannot make it up in any other way ? Plaintiff: No, sir.
Can I ask where you found this information MB?
I have a similar document on another family member, so I thought it might be in the same site. But that was The Old Bailey, 🙄
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address in 1881 is NOrth Crescent, which has helped me find these snippets which might match your notes
DEATHS.
26th December 1884
On the 23rd inst., at North Crescent, in this town William, son of Mr Thomas Thomas, tailor, aged 5 years
16th January 1885
On the 12th inst., at North Crescent, in this town, Emma, daughter of Mr Thomas Thomas, tailor, aged 3 years.
22nd July 1904
On the 19th inst., at North Crescent, in this town, Emma Roslina (Rosie) beloved daughter of the late Thomas Thomas, tailor, aged 17 years, 9 months. Funeral on Sunday afternoon at 3 30 p.m. Loved by all who
knew her.
4 Dec 1908
On the 28th ult., at Jordanston Hill, Elizabeth May (Lizzie), youngest daughter of the late Mr Thomas Thomas, tailor, of North Crescent, in this town. Aged 18 years. Loved by all who knew her.
All from Pembrokeshire Herald and General Advertiser on the Welsh Newspapers Online site (as also the previous article you were enquiring about)
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Hi again, Stephen Thomas with wife Mary and family are in Crowhill Road 1861 and 1851
1861 RG09/4164/53/1
1851 HO107/2478/197/1
Keyboard86
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Not once was mother listed on deaths, wonder what happened to her?
Louisa Maud
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Thank you MB. Those finds do fit in with Ernest’s notes. He mentions a sister who died around 1909, which would fit with Elizabeth May (Lizzie).
He has a 3year Old girl called Emma, who died in 1885, which fits with what you found.
My notes mention another boy, (not William) who was born on 1st May of an unknown year and died in an unknown year.
It’s great to see so much of what Ernest wrote match up with what you’ve found. Ernest said he could not trace many of these relatives. He only had this information from his mother, who had moved to London years earlier and didn’t speak much about her family.
Thank you for your help. 🙋🏻♀️
I will go and print off lots of snippets of newspapers now. ☺️
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Not once was mother listed on deaths, wonder what happened to her?
Louisa Maud
I have her year of death as 1899. She was only 51/52. Ernest reports she looked much older than her years. He saw her as a toddler, but couldn’t remember much. He has photos of her in 1959.
I have all the details for her death certificate. I will order it soon and if it contains anything particularly interesting I will post an update here ☺️
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Well the wife is mentioned in a roundabout way (common for the time)
On the 25th inst., at North Crescent, in this town, ths wife of Mr Thomas Thomas tailor, of a daughter
29 October 1886
[presumably Emma Roslina]
No mention of her when he dies
24 August 1898
On the 19th inst., at North Gate, in this town, Mr Thomas Thomas, tailor, aged 58 years.
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Hi again, Stephen Thomas with wife Mary and family are in Crowhill Road 1861 and 1851
1861 RG09/4164/53/1
1851 HO107/2478/197/1
Keyboard86
Oo, lovely find Keyboard86. I’ll check that out. It looks more and more like they are ‘right’. That would be another generation back.
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Well the wife is mentioned in a roundabout way (common for the time)
On the 25th inst., at North Crescent, in this town, ths wife of Mr Thomas Thomas tailor, of a daughter
29 October 1886
[presumably Emma Roslina]
No mention of her when he dies
24 August 1898
On the 19th inst., at North Gate, in this town, Mr Thomas Thomas, tailor, aged 58 years.
Yes. I have the date Fri 14th Aug 1898 for Thomas’ death. So that is very close.
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The 14 Aug 1898 was a Sunday, whereas the 19 Aug was a Friday. Looks like the 14th you have in the notes was a mistranscription and 19th matches the day you have.
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OK the Thomas family look to be in Prendergast, Haverfordwest in 1841:-
Stephen Thomas 30
Mary 30
Sarah 8
William 5
James 3
Thomas 7 months
Census ref HO107/1450/2b/29 /13
Keyboard86
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The 14 Aug 1898 was a Sunday, whereas the 19 Aug was a Friday. Looks like the 14th you have in the notes was a mistranscription and 19th matches the day you have.
Well spotted Alpinecottage, thank you. I’ll order the death certificates soon. It will be interesting to see if his missing leg is mentioned.
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OK the Thomas family look to be in Prendergast, Haverfordwest in 1841:-
Stephen Thomas 30
Mary 30
Sarah 8
William 5
James 3
Thomas 7 months
Census ref HO1071450/2b/29 /13
Keyboard86
Thank you Keyboard86.
I can’t keep up with all this new information. It’ll be a lovely job to go through it all at the weekend.
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Really not certain of Prendergast family , but if correct Thomas Thomas baptised 6th December 1840 Prendergast Father Stephen Mother Mary
Keyboard86
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Deleted
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Really not certain of Prendergast family , but if correct Thomas Thomas baptised 6th December 1840 Prendergast Father Stephen Mother Mary
Keyboard86
I understand Keyboard. I will start back at the ‘beginning’ and take it step by step. Thanks for all your help, it is much appreciated ☺️
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Hmm. There was another Thomas Thomas, a tailor Born Llandovery, Carmarthenshire circa 1842, who may be the one that married Caroline Christmas in Haverfordwest in 1865.
This will take some sorting out....
See https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/155100717/john-christmas-thomas
And Ancestry tree https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/83967859/person/48583768152/facts
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REPLY NO #17
I think Thomas Thomas with a Caroline on 1871 is a collier, no connection as far as I can see
Posted previously
Louisa Maud
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Not sure what that's about, Louisa Maud.
I think this is the other Thomas Thomas, tailor, in 1871 at 6 Shakespeare Street, Roath, Cardiff:
Thomas Thomas, 28, lodger, tailor, Llandovery
Caroline Thomas, wife, 26, Haverfordwest
Elizabeth, daughter, 1, Haverfordwest
The child is a match for Elizabeth Mary Thomas, mmn Christmas, born Haverfordwest in 4Q 1869.
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Hello Shaun J and Louisa Maud,
This is the problem I was having, there were just so many Thomas Thomases in Wales at the time.
I knew Thomas to be a very popular surname, but I was shocked that so many parents named their child Thomas twice!
I have made notes of everything you have all found for me, and I will go over it carefully at the weekend. It will take a while for me to get my head around it all ☺️
I’ve also ordered a few certificates I feel quite confident about, so hopefully they will clarify a few things.
Hope you have a lovely weekend.
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I think the likely answer is there was Thomas Thomas, son of Thomas, who married Caroline Christmas, and there was Thomas Thomas, son of Steven, who married Elizabeth John. Both tailors, both (at different times) in North Gate, Haverfordwest.
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Good luck with certs, let us know how you get on
Happy hunting
Louisa Maud
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Hi I believe Thomas Thomas occ Tailor was unmarried in 1871 as shown earlier, Elizabeth John 15 occ Servant b Wiston could be with a William Hugh Thomas and family in 1861 RG09/4165/60/8
1871 for Elizabeth?
Keyboard86
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That’s a good one Keyboard86. I see there are other Johns on the same page too! I can’t see her in 1871 yet, but will keep looking.
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Hello,
Just thought I would let you all know what has come up so far.
The marriage certificate for a Thomas Thomas and Elizabeth John in 1877 arrived and is the RIGHT one! I almost couldn’t believe it. (Their daughter Mary Ann Thomas was born 10 years earlier.)
I did order a birth certificate for Mary Ann, but it was the wrong one 🙄
The marriage cert gives his father as Stephen Thomas Brewer’s Labourer (which matches what we thought). The bride’s father is William John labourer, which is new information.
I’ve since found William John and his wife Ann in the 1851 census in Hard Dilling (dwelling?), Wiston.
I can see Elizabeth John and Thomas Thomas on the 1871 census, 6 years before their marriage.
Elizabeth is a domestic servant in a Grocer’s house. Thomas Thomas is with his parents (this was already found by one of you).
I can’t see their daughter Mary Ann in the 1871 census. She isn’t with either parent. She would have been 4 years old. I suppose there may be a chance that her surname isn’t Thomas at this point. Or that Thomas Thomas may not be her biological father, but just took his name when her mum married him. I’m not sure how this would have worked at the time.
It is worth noting that both Thomas and Elizabeth are listed as unmarried in the 1871 census and as bachelor and spinster in their marriage cert.
I found a website called ‘Dyfed Family History Society’ which was helpful. I don’t know how I found it!
It had a 1851 census index. It listed everyone by name alphabetically, and just gives their age and folio number.
My Elizabeth John was around 3 in that year. It was very handy to be able to see all of the Elizabeth Johns in the area, and check the ones that were close in age.
My next moves are:-
I have ordered the death certificates of 4 of Thomas and Elizabeth’s children.
I will keep looking for Mary Ann in the 1871 census.
Thank you all for your help.
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That is a good result
Thank you for coming back to let us know how you did and hopefully us RC's were of some help
Happy hunting
Louisa Maud
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Getting confused, so earlier children for Thomas, with mmn Christmas, so the Jones/Johns marriage came later than 1869, and 1871 Thomas looks to be unmarried?
One to look at William John 60, Ann John 64, Mary 3 Grandchild
Hareshead Cottage, Wiston
RG10/5529/6/5
Keyboard86
Hi again, who therefore are the parents of this Grandchild in 1871?
Keyboard86
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Hello Keyboard86,
You are right, that looks to be them. I had forgotten you mentioned that possibility before.
Thank you for your help.