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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Tickettyboo on Friday 06 July 18 17:45 BST (UK)
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Jane Victoria Nicolson (nee Poulton) who lived at 16 Clydesdale Road, Byker declared on the 1911 register that she had been married (to Jeremiah Nicolson, though he wasn't at home for the census) for 6 years and in that time had two children one of whom had died.
Her son, John, was listed in the house with her.
The GRO index search gives a birth registered Newcastle upon Tyne in Q1 1906 for an Ellen Nicolson, MMN Poulton.
Try as I might I can't find a death registration for Ellen. I've tried Free BMD, GRO, FindMyPast, Newcastle registrars search - nothing - and its driving me crazy :-) I've even tried Scotlands people (in case they went to visit Granny and Granda in Leith and the child died there) but nothing coming up.
They were married at St Silas, Byker in Dec 1905, she was still in Byker in 1911 so I am starting on the assumption that this little girl died in Byker.
If anyone can see something I have obviously missed I'd be interested.
Boo
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The closest I can find is
Ellen Nicholson aged 0 Sep 1906 Gateshead 10a 561
Emeltom
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Bless you!
I just knew I was missing the obvious but got so bogged down with it I was cross-eyed.
I can check that one out but it looks likely, I think her family were in Gateshead.
Boo
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hmm, nope.
According to GRO there was only one Ellen Nicholson death, Gateshead 1906 and Durham Records Online burial record tells me her Dad was Alfred.
Thanks though Emeltom, it was a possible and I appreciate you looking.
Back to the drawing board.
Boo
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If it was Nicolson's in Leith they probably came from Shetland, try Tony Gott's excellent website,
https://bayanne.info/Shetland/
Skoosh.
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The Nicolsons did originate in Shetland but Jeremiah was born in Leith and his parents were still there in 1911. If this child did die on Shetland I'd expect to find Ellen's death in the statutory registers on Scotland's people and there's no sign of it.
Jane Poulton (Jeremiah's wife) was born in Newcastle.
Its a puzzle.
Boo
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Eleanor Nicholson , perhaps ,Newcastle Upon Tyne aged 0 Dec 1907 so still under 1 yours would have been older
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There are a few Jeremiah Nicolson's listed I see, my own Shetland Nicolson was a seaman named Olla, his family went to Leith, he is a mystery.
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Eleanor Nicholson , perhaps ,Newcastle Upon Tyne aged 0 Dec 1907 so still under 1 yours would have been older
Thanks for looking, next time I go to our local FHC (wont be till September as they close for the school holidays) I'll start trawling through the burials in the Byker area to see if I can find anything. It seems so odd! I've even even tried (ever one to clutch at any straw) using the surname Poulton in case it was inadvertently registered with an incorrect surname but no joy there either.
Boo
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If she was born and died within say a few minutes would her mother need to register her death
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If she was born and died within say a few minutes would her mother need to register her death
As she had registered the birth I would assume that the death would need to be registered too. As far as I know all live births had/have to be registered even if the life is very short.
Boo
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In the next few weeks I could look at the Heaton Cemetery records (covers Byker and Heaton).
It might be worth checking for the 1907 death/burial of Ellen. I recently did a burial search for a Roots Chatter and freebmd had their ancestor's age at death way out - she was down as age 12 but had actually died in her 40s and had been a married woman with a large family. So clearly not age 12. I suppose age errors do occur occasionally on burial registers as well. Freebmd is usually accurate admittedly. This is the only error I have ever come across.
The Ellen that Radcliff refers to may still be the right one. I will see what I can find out in the next few weeks and will get back to you about this, Boo.
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Thanks RTL, very good of you but its not vital and I know you have a limited amount of time don't make it a priority.
According to the TWAS catalogue there does seem to be an index to burials for Byker and Heaton Cemetery which, hopefully, will help.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mbp/
Boo
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The registers are also on microfilm at the library in Newcastle. I am planning too go to the Archives to for another RootsChatter in next few weeks to do a look up.
So don't worry about having to wait until September Boo. I do think I will be able to check this out for you before then. :)
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Hi Boo,
I have managed to pop into the library today after work. I checked the Heaton & Byker Cemetery for Eleanor/Ellen for burial in December quarter 1907 and the All Saints Cemetery (microfilm quite dark in quality over names). however, unfortunately I haven't found her in these registers.
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Thank you for taking the time to look, RTL, much appreciated and I now know to discount that year and quarter for Heaton and All Saints.
I'll give it a bit more thought to see if I can think of another way to narrow down the time frame as atm all I know is that her birth was registered Q1 1906 and in 1911 her Mam said she'd had two children one of whom had died.
So this little one must have died between 1906 and 1911.That's quite a time span and I'd need to narrow it down somehow.
Thanks again
Boo
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Boo, I wasn't going to give up for you - found her!
At least, I wonder if this could be the baby you are seeking:
Elswick Cemetery
Entry: 40694
Eleanor Nicholson
Female
Age is either 15 months or minutes there is a scribble at the top so age not totally clear. Looks more like months but there is a dot which could be an 'i' dot. Personally, I think it is months but I could be wrong.
29 Hawes Street
Burial Date: Dec 24 1907
'No Minister' is written
Section B
Grave 165
Removed from St Stephen Parish
I have asked for second opinion from staff and they think this records 'months' but like me they are not completely certain.
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Thanks, its a possible and I will check it out, though 15 months is questionable as the baby with the right MMN had her birth registered in Q1 1906 which would make her at least 21 months by Dec 1907.
He he, its never easy, even with the very generous help that people such as yourself give so freely :-)
and, I just remembered a baby born a died too soon (child of one of my aunts) who caused the same problems. Turns out they decided to register her birth with one forename, then changed their minds and called her by a totally different forename. I had only ever heard her referred to by the revised name and it drove me crazy trying to find birth/death registrations. Unfortunately there was no one still around for me to ask.
Boo
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I have just checked for a death notice but there does not appear to have been one. I didn't really expect one but thought it worth checking just in case.
You are right Boo, some searches. are never easy.
If you can think of any more ideas in the future regarding Baby Ellen - if I can help I will. :)
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Hi Boo,
I have checked the Gateshead burial for you. I know her Father was called Alfred and the Ellen you are looking for had a Father called Jeremiah. However, I still think this is worth checking just in case. I had an ancestor called Philip and I have discovered for a time he seems to have called himself Ralph, for reasons unknown. I wonder if likewiseJeremiah may have thrown a spanner in the works by deciding to call himself Alfred? It does seem strange that Ellen's death registration can't be found. Since her birth was registered then surely her death would have to be registered.
Anyway, here is the Gateshead burial. Perhaps you may be able to tell if this might be your Ellen by the address. If you definitely think this is not your Ellen at least you can definitely rule this one out:
Gateshead East
Entry: 62801
Ellen Nicholson
F. Alfred
Age: 10m
160 Somerset Street
Buried: Aug 19 1906
Ceremony by Martin Walsh
Odd looking letter but looks like buried Section J No: 4186
The next time I can get to the library I could look up a possible death notice if you think there may be a chance it could be Ellen. Perhaps parents may be called Alfred and Jane.
Perhaps she may have been born late in November 1905 and registered in January say, 1906 which could fit the 10m age mark.
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Thanks RTL, but no I really think I can discount this registration/burial. Jeremiah is definitely Jeremiah. The only name variation I have found for him is a directory entry in 1912, Wilmington, Delaware where he is listed as Jerry.
Ellen's birth was registered in Q1 1906. I believe she was named for a maternal Aunt, Nellie Poulton.
In April 1906, Jeremiah arrived in New York on the SS Furnesia. His arrival form says his last address was Newcastle (sadly no specific address).
His wife and child (if the child was still alive) did not accompany him, which was not unusual, lots of men went first to establish themselves, see if it was going to work out and families joined them later.
I have yet to find a return crossing for him, but have another arrival in the US for him in July 1910, this time on the SS Haverford, Liverpool to Philadelphia. That says his nearest relative in the UK was Mrs Nicolson 126 Ayton St, Byker, Newcastle. It also says he had previously been in the US from 1906-190* last character not clear but I think it says 1907. That date fits in with the birth of their second child, John, which was registered in Q2 1908. Jane must have become pregnant with John almost as soon as Jeremiah returned (though he may at least have unpacked his case first <g>)
Jane and so John were recorded on the 1911 census at Clydesdale Road, Byker and in Oct 1911 they joined Jeremiah in the US.
and, after all that, Jeremiah died in Wilmington Delaware in Nov 1912.
Given the dates of Jeremiah's first stint in the US, I think its possible that baby Ellen's death was the reason for his return.
If only they'd not lived in the Newcastle Registration District I could enquire with the local registrar, who are usually wiling to do a short search given the details. Unfortunately Newcastle are not.
But don't spend any more of your valuable time looking for this, you've helped above and beyond my expectations. If I get something concrete, I'll ask for it to be checked if necessary.
Thanks again
Boo
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Oh well! There was always a chance it could be the wrong one.
However, you might like to have the St Silas baptisms though which are recorded in a file at the Tyne and Wear Archives:
Ellen
28 Feb 1906
Parents: Jeremiah & Jane Victoria Nicholson
19 Barrasford Road
Stonemason
John
29 April 1908
Parents: Jeremiah & Jane Victoria Nicholson
21 Oban Road
Stonemason
I hope at least these records may be useful. :)
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ooh thank you!
Yes they are very useful - they match the parents first names and Jeremiah's occupation, whereas the birth reg just had a match for surnames.
Plus I now have another 2 addresses for them :-)
Though dumbBoo has just discovered that St Silas is now in the database for Durham Records Online (note to self to remember they are branching out to Northumberland)
Thank you, the catalogue on Family Search doesn't seem to have images for St Silas, so I'll order the copies of these baptisms from the archives.
Boo
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Oh! I am glad that these at least have been useful. The staff say that if you can give precise information on email they will be able to send you copies for only £7 each. Much better than their usual hefty £30 fee. ;) The baptisms will be on microfilm 957.
The marriage of Jeremiah and Jane is also in a file. However, I have looked up the full entry for you. Might as well whilst I am here so don't worry about me and my time - you forget I am an addicted genealogist and this is fun for me. ;D Anyway, hope this is also useful for your records:
St Silas, marriage (on microfilm 959)
Entry 429
Jeremiah Nicolson & Jane Victoria Poulton (the 'h' is crossed over his surname and Father below surname
Dec 26 1904
His age: 28
Her age: 23
Bachelor & Spinster
Stone Mason
His residence: 33 Mowbray Street
Her residence: 9(7?) Mowbray Street
Fathers:
John Nicolson - Seaman
Thomas Poulton - Joiner
Both Jane and Jeremiah signed names
Witnesses:
(Gideon? Pilloh?) & Andrew Nicolson (both signed)
Added: I have noticed that you have given the marriage as December 1905 but they are definitely down as having married in 1904 in the register.
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Apologies, yes the marriage was 1904, I must have looked at the registration and it was registered in Q1 1905, though I do already have the parish register image it was kind of you to look and type it all out.
The witness Gideon - his surname (though difficult to read and its an unusual name) is PITLOH, he was Jane's brother in law.
£7 a throw for a print from a microfilm is way outside my budget so I'll make do with the transcriptions that you have supplied and are also on Durham Records Online. These folk are twiglets but if I wanted confirmation of the births I could get a .pdf of their birth registration from the GRO for less than that.
Woodhorn have microfilms of this parish and their microfilm copying charges page says I could have both baptism images posted to me for less than a fiver, which is a lot better and I may consider that.
Thanks again, your time and help is appreciated
Boo
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Can't say I blame you Boo. That definitely sounds like a better bargain.
I have just been to see the famed Rocket and have been on the Rocket virtual reality ride. The staff fit you up with your virtual ride headgear and you're off! The latter experience is just outside in a room near the Archives department. The Rocket itself is just across from the Turbinia vessel near the entrance. All free! :)