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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Merionethshire => Topic started by: Llanfihangel on Saturday 07 July 18 17:06 BST (UK)
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Hi
I have a FindMyPast record of a marriage between Thomas Williams and Ann Jones on 18 October 1814 at Llanfawr Merionethshire. It was witnessed by John Williams and Sarah Jones. The marriage was by license and all the signatures indicate a high level of literacy. The groom's parish is recorded as Spytty and the Bride resided in the parish of Llanfawr.
I can't find any subsequent records of the couple or children, and I would like to know if they emigrated to America. That is because I am trying to trace a Benjamin Williams who was born in Wales from Welsh parents of the same name. Benjamin Williams was born 1818 died 1906 in Columbus Ohio, and his death certificate shows his parents Thomas Williams and Ann Williams were born in Wales.
I would appreciate any further information
Thanks!
Llanfi :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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I don't see a bapt for Benjamin at the moment in Merionethshire
A possible for Yspyty
Partly in n Denbighshire and partly in Caenarfonshire.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Ysbytyifan
I have some chapel records and will look them out.
Gadget
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A tree has the Benjamin who died in Ohio as b.1817 Breconshire. Parents recorded as David Williams and Ann Powell. Emigrated 1831,
Did he marry Phoebe Seeley?
Link to Findagrave:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/73963427/b-will
Added - on the 1850 US census, he has a son named David, aged 10. Death date from FaG was April 1906.
Gadget
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Other trees have a variety of parents' names, including unknown, but they are all consistent with a birth date of Nov 1817, Brecon. It could be that they copied one of the trees :-\
Nothing showing on the non-conformist records so far.
Gadget
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Green Lawn Cemetery index has his father as Thomas.
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Background info and other thread - to avoid duplication
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=796196.0
Sandra
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Thanks, Sandra.
It seems to match all the bits that I've found but no Thomas and Ann Williams, so far :-\
Gadget
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Is Ebenezer unrelated? Llanfi seems to think he's not part of the family :-\
The Green lawn record has his father as Thomas.
Gadget
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Just had a thought about the Llanfawr/Llanfor records.
Some of my ancestors were from that parish and the patronymic form was used on and off into the 19th century, depending on the vicar's whim ::)
Gadget
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Delaware County, Ohio, Burial Index, 1784-2011 - shows Ann Williams burial 17 July 1848 - Radnor Cemetery. (no further information)
Benjamin and Phoebe were in Radnor Delawarein 1850
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mbu/
https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Benjamin_Williams_%2864%29
Sandra
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Does it indicate a possible age for her?
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No sorry, just an index with a poor link.
There is a RAOGK volunteer (Elleymae) in Franklin Ohio that may be able to look for an obituaries for Benjamin Williams at the local library. Sometimes these are well documented with information which may or may not prove the connection for you.
https://www.raogk.org/lookups/region/ohio/
Sandra
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Might be worth contacting some of these links to see if boots on the ground can help you.
Delaware County historical Society have a facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/Delaware-County-Historical-Society-154135447959654/
https://www.delawareohiohistory.org/
http://delawareohiohistory.com/Radnor/
https://www.columbushistory.org/
https://www.facebook.com/ColumbusHistoricalSociety/
Sandra
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There's an Ann Williams on the 1840 in Delaware co. but she's recorded as 20-30.
Only one showing there.
:-\
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Long Shot - Columbus Ward Franklin - Ann Williams - 1840
Home in 1840 (City, County, State): Columbus Ward 1, Franklin, Ohio
Free White Persons - Males - 15 thru 19 - 1
Free White Persons - Females - 50 thru 59 - 1
Free White Persons - Under 20 - 1
Total Free White Persons: 2
Total All Persons - Free White, Free Coloured, Slaves - 2
Sandra
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Was just looking at that one. She's the only other Ann Williams listed in Ohio according to my listing, plus three Nancys and many As
Benjamin would be 20-30 then.
Ann and Thomas Williams are not the most unusual of names.
Gadget
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Sandra
Have a look at the Thomas Williams, Delaware, aged 40-50 in the 1840. He could fit with an 1814 marriage, maybe.
Gadget
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Benjamin was my GGgrandfather via his son William Morrow Wiliams. You can view his data at https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LCTR-NL2. He emigrated to Delaware Co, Ohio in approx. 1833. I *might* have found the immigration record (and naturalization certificate from 1844), but Welsh males had only about 10 given names and no middle names, so there are multiple records of Benjamin Williamses and possible relatives all over the Internet. I have a possible record of Benjamin, Phoebe, and his son David showing his residence as Galena, Delaware Co, Ohio in the 1840 census. Unfortunately, that census only names the head of the household, but the ages and family composition at that time fit.
It's not clear to me that Thomas and Ann made the trip with Benjamin. I can't find anything definitive about their life or death in Ohio. I have been corresponding with an Alan Hughes in England, who is related to Ann Jones. Two items of interest:
1."Birth [of Benjamin] recorded in the records of Gyffilliog Calvinist Methodist Church, with parents as Thomas and Ann."
2. "I believe Benjamin's parents both died in the 3rd influenza epidemic that swept through much of the UK at that time, it lasted over 13 months! The social status determined the percentage chance you had of surviving, the poorer you were the less chance you had! The Williams family were historically of servant stock, we have historical evidence of them back to the 14th Century (but not a direct lineage at this point in time)."
Concerning the possible parentage of David Williams and Anne Powell, that is based in part on a brief bio of their son Ebenezer in "History of Delaware County and Ohio. Containing a brief history of the State of Ohio" (https://archive.org/stream/cu31924050611106/cu31924050611106_djvu.txt). I suspect that they *might* have been Benjamin's uncle and aunt, and that Benjamin emigrated with them, possibly after his parents died. But again, there were so many immigrant Williams males with the same name in those days, it's hard to pin down an association.
That's the best I can do for now.
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Forgot to mention that the 1850 and 1870 censuses definitely show Benjamin and his family in Delaware and, I think, Franklin Counties, Ohio.
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Welcome John.
What great info.
My 3xgreat grandparents and some of their children were buried in Gyffylliog church yard and I visited the area a few years ago. I think I might have some records tucked away somewhere.
Gadget
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I've now been through the records of the Gyffylliog/Cyffylliog Cavenistic Methodist Chapel. These were produced, among others, by Clwyd FHS. I've also checked the records of other chapel records in the area.
This is what I have for children baptised at Cyffylliog Calvanistic Methodist Chapel with parents Thomas Williams and Anne (mn Jones):
Elizabeth Williams, born 15th Nov and bpt 11th Dec 1812/of Bont. Daughter of Thomas Williams, lab. and Anne, mn Jones
Mother before marriage - Denbigh, Father before marriage - Llanynys
Thomas Williams, born 16th and bpt 23rd of December 1814/of Bont. Son of Thomas Williams, lab. and Anne, mn Jones
Mother before marriage - Denbigh, Father before marriage - Llanynys
Cathrine Williams, born 20th and bpt 29th March 1818 of Bontuchel. Daughter of Thomas Williams, lab. and Anne, mn Jones
Mother before marriage - Denbigh, Father before marriage - Llanynys
John Williams, born 16th and bpt 27th Nov 1820 of Bron Mary. Son of Thomas Williams, lab. and Anne, mn Jones
Mother before marriage - Denbigh, Father before marriage - Llanynys
Joseph Williams, born 4th and bpt 17th August 1823. Son of Thomas Williams, lab. and Anne, mn Jones
Mother before marriage - Denbigh, Father before marriage - Llanynys
(there was an Ebenezer Williams bpt there but parents were Moses Williams and Anne Lloyd)
Note - no Benjamin and I think parents were married before 1814. Also residence of parents were different than previously stated.
None of the other chapel records that I've looked at have a Benjamin Williams to parents with the names mentioned.
John - could you give me the source of your informtion about the baptism, please.
Gadget
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Hi John,
Welcome to this discussion and Rootschat.
Notice that Benjamin and Phoebe named the first son David L (think the L may be Llewellyan) Williams - usually names followed a naming pattern back then. If Benjamin did immigrate with the Aunt and Uncle he might have named the son after the Uncle. Interesting that Thomas was used on the Greenwood Cemetery Index.
Sandra
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I would like to know the source of the baptism information ans the records I've looked at are accurate and as complete as are available for the chapel mentioned.
Gadget
added - I noticed the David L on the 1850 (reply #2), Sandra - interesting
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The Ann and David, parents of Ebenezer bpt Brecon (Calv Meth) in Jan 1811 and b. 20 Dec 1810, were most probably the David William and Anne Powell who married Llywel, Breconshire 24 August 1794.
Gadget
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Hi,
Many thanks to all of you for your diligent efforts to trace Benjamin...!
The Ebenezer born in Breconshhire, Llanwrtyd, became a Calvinistic Methodist minister and was in Llanwrtydd according to the 1851 Census.
The record for the Thomas Williams and Ann Jones marriage shows that Thomas resided in the Parish of Spytty, and I don't know where it was.
The marriage took place in Llanfawr, and that is very close to the old boundary of Merionethshire with Denbighshire. Ann Jones could have been born in Denbighshire...
I am attaching a brief account of Ebenezer... Please excuse the typos... Llanwrtyd is an awkward name to enter on my keyboard!
There is a Llanynis just south ot Builth in Breconshire....
There are other records of marriages between Thomas Williams and Anne Jones but they all have her recorded as ANNE and not ANN
Please maintain your cool! It is an interesting search and there is more to come!!!
Thanks!
Llanfi
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Hi,
I made a mistake in my attachment... It was Ann Jones, not Ann Powell who married David Williams in Llanwrtyd.
Also I found an Ysbytty near Llanfawr .... the Welsh pronunciation might have confused the Vicar at the time!
The rules governing the letter Y are some of the most confusing in Welsh. Normally it's pronounced like the u in cut, but in the last syllable of a word it most commonly represents the sound of the ee in beet.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Welsh/Pronunciation
Well, Maybe!
Cheers,
Llanfi
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I gave details of Yspyty in one of my early replies.
I don't see a bapt for Benjamin at the moment in Merionethshire
A possible for Yspyty
Partly in n Denbighshire and partly in Caenarfonshire.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Ysbytyifan
I have some chapel records and will look them out.
Gadget
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Ann and Anne are interchangeable and the spelling should not be taken as gospel.
Also see:
The Ann and David, parents of Ebenezer bpt Brecon (Calv Meth) in Jan 1811 and b. 20 Dec 1810, were most probably the David William and Anne Powell who married Llywel, Breconshire 24 August 1794.
Gadget
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Llanfi
I'm a little puzzled but I'm not sure that you've read much of the thread. See, for example, the posts of John, a g g grandson of Thomas Williams.
:-\
Added - Are you sure that the Merionethshire couple are Benjamin's parents:
Hi,
Any leads on Benjamin Williams b 1817 Llanegwad Carmarthenshire or Llanwrtyd Breconshire? Father David William(s) mother Ann Jones married ca. 1808 at Calvinistic Chapel near Llwynfortune. he had a brother Ebenezer baptised Bethel Llanwrtyd 1810.
The family emigrated to America about 1834.
Thanks
Llanfi
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Hi,
I started a search on the Carmarthen and Breconshire boards with the assumption that Ebenezer was Benjamin's brother, and that his father was David Williams and mother Ann. That was from a WeRelate family history, see attached. I E-mailed John with the news that I had found Ebenezer son of David Williams and Ann Jones in Llanwrtyd. I found out later that Ebenezer was in Llanwrtydd as a C.M. Minister in the 1851 Census. Here is my original post on the Breconshire and Carmarthenshire boards, and I think I may have started a real red herring!
Please ignore my original posting:
"Hi,
Any leads on Benjamin Williams b 1817 Llanegwad Carmarthenshire or Llanwrtyd Breconshire? Father David William(s) mother Ann Jones married ca. 1808 at Calvinistic Chapel near Llwynfortune. he had a brother Ebenezer baptised Bethel Llanwrtyd 1810.
The family emigrated to America about 1834.
Thanks
Llanfi"
The Ohio death certificate I received from John clearly shows Benj Williams was born in 1818 and that his parents were Thomas Williams and Ann Jones, from Wales (no specific location).
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Just one thing to bear in mind. Information about ancestors on death certificates are only as good as the knowledge of the people who give the information.
Following John;s post, I spent an hour or so this morning going through the Cyffylliog Calvanistic Methodist records looking for Benjamin, parents Thomas and Ann. As you can see, there wasn't one. I also looked at other neighbouring non-conformist records.
Gadget
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The information on the death certificate was from Benjamin's eldest daughter, Emily. If, as I believe, her grandparents did not emigrate with Benjamin, it is possible that she was mistaken since she did not know them. Probably not, but possibly so. Incidentally, the 1818 birth date shown on the certificate is the only place it shows up. The birth year on Benjamin's headstone is 1817, so I'll assume that is correct.
Because I cannot verify with absolute certainty the identity of Benjamin's parents based on the available inconclusive and confusing evidence, I'm going to stop trying. Tracing my father's line to Europe was my goal when I started this search, and I accomplished that with Benjamin.
John
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A Welsh contact of mine, (possibly) related through Ann Jones, writes the following about why Benjamin might have emigrated to America as a teen:
"Born Gyffylliog, record amended, forced to emigrate or be transported for being Welsh Calvinist, refused to affirm to Welsh Baptist. Refer to Noncomformist rioting 1829/30; various chapels burnt, one Minister killed. No mention in local papers that Benjamin was personally involved in rioting, but it seems very likely; tensions ran high and whole villages were involved,against each other, cattle run off the fields, rivers/streams diverted to flood slate mines. Economic guerrilla war basically."
Alan has spent a lot of time researching the family's history, and I give some credence to what he tells me. However, if there was, indeed, no birth record for Benjamin at Cyffilliog Calvinist Methodist Church as Gadget notes, then his information may be flawed. This is all hurting my head.
John
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Hi,
I did a lot of searching on FindmyPast and came up with one Benjamin baptised by his father Thomas Williams and mother Ann living in Aberavon, Glamorganshire in 1824. This was according to a memorandum on the FindMyPast record by the Vicar of Cadoxton. See snippet attached...
There are two Cadoxtons in Glamorganshire:
Wikipedia has " Cadoxton (Welsh: Llangatwg), is a village situated in Neath Port Talbot county borough, Wales. ... its fuller name, Cadoxton-juxta-Neath, in order to differentiate it from Cadoxton, Vale of Glamorgan (also known as Cadoxton-juxta-Barry)"
Cadoxton-juxta-Neath is very close (5 miles) to Cadoxton... Cadoxton-juxta-Barry is much further away (35 miles)
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I now find a FindMyPast record for Benjamin Williams, Age 0, Birth Year 1824, Buried 7 August 1824, St Mary Anglican Church, Aberavon, Glamorganshire.
Sorry about that, I should have checked ahead....
llanfi ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :-X
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The Thomas Williams and Ann Jones married 1814 in Merionethshire had one son Thomas Humphrey Williams by 1822 . Thomas Humphrey Williams was named grandson and a beneficiary in Humphrey Jones (father of Ann Jones) will in 1822. He was the only child of Thomas Wiiliams in the will so I don’t think there was a Benjamin born 1818 by this couple. So cross off that marriage in your research. Pity because I hoped that this was a likely Llanfor Merionethshire connection.
However, I did find a reference to him as one of the founders of Delhi Lodge 250 in Delaware Ohio 25 May 1854. I contacted the Odd Fellows in Cleveland Ohio and received the following information:
"Benjamin Williams was listed as a Past Grand of the Lodge. You become a Past Grand after serving as Noble Grand. The Noble Grand is the highest office in a Odd Fellow Lodge. Lodge #250 Radnor was located in Radnor Ohio and consolidated with Olentangy Lodge #53 in 1973. Olentangy Lodge #53 went Defunct in 2013. When a lodge consolidates the records are to go to the lodge they are consolidating with. Sadly that doesn’t always happen. When a lodge goes defunct the records are suppose to come to our Office. About three years ago, the Officers voted to move the records here to the J H Rathbone Museum and Resource Center at 134 S Earl Ave., Lafayette IN 47904.
Cheers,
Llanfi :) :) :) :) :) :)
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I found Thomas Williams and Anne Jones, his wife, on FindmyPast baptizing five children:Elizabeth (1812) Thomas (1814), Cathrin (1818), John (1820), Joseph (1823) at Cyffilliog Calvinistic Methodist Chapel, Denbighshire. The baptisms straddled 1812 to 1823 and the location, residence, and other data is very consistent. There is no record of them baptizing a Benjamin. I found Thomas and Anne in the 1841 and 1851 Censuses living in Llanfwrog, the same place given as their residence in all of the above baptisms. Note: The baptisms were all at Cyffilliog but FindmyPast has the search location as Ruthin Union, Denbighshire, Wales.
Cheers,
Llanfi :) :) :) :) :)