RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Mayo => Topic started by: daizedoo on Wednesday 11 July 18 04:50 BST (UK)
-
Hello,
I'm looking for info on a Walsh family in the Crossmolina parish in the mid 1800s. Here's what I know:
-Anne Walsh was born around 1856 and lived in Ballybrooney.
-Anne's father was Patrick Walsh.
-Anne married Michael Collins who was born around 1850 and lived in Errew.
-They married in Ballysakeery Church in 1875.
I have their marriage record. She was underage, and her father Patrick was a witness. (That's how I know his name, I know nothing else about him). Maria Walsh was also a witness, but cannot verify if she is Anne's mother or another family member.
-Michael and Anne had two daughters born in Errew: Mary/Maria Collins (b. 1877) and Agnes Ann Collins (b. 1878) before immigrating to the US in 1880. I have both of their baptism records, and I have their immigration record.
-The Collins family lived in Chicago, Cook County, Illinois until Michael died, sometime before the 1910 Census.
-Anne and Michael had 5 more kids, born in the USA: Francis, Edward, Josephine, Kate, and Florence all born in Cook County, Illinois.
-By the 1920 Census, most of the Collins family had relocated to California.
I'm very eager to find out more info on the Walsh family in Ireland and build onto my tree. Who was Anne's mother? Did Anne have siblings? I realize all these names are very common, and I may have reached my limits with digital records.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Rathoma/Ballybroony/1574819/
I'm fairly certain this family is either Anne's brother or a cousin, since it is the right downland and they were very small.
Thanks for any info or tips on where to look next!
-
"-Anne Walsh was born around 1856 and lived in Ballybrooney.
-Anne's father was Patrick Walsh.
-Anne married Michael Collins who was born around 1850 and lived in Errew.
-They married in Ballysakeery Church in 1875.
Did Anne have siblings?"
You can check Civil Registers and Parish Records to try to find Siblings marrying.
-
C Reg Birth, Marriage and Death results for Walsh of Ballina http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mca/
you can then Select time frame from list on Left, 1800's etc, and then by Decade.
-
"http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Rathoma/Ballybroony/1574819/
I'm fairly certain this family is either Anne's brother or a cousin, since it is the right downland and they were very small...."
You can look for his Marriage on Civil Reg.
-
C Reg Marriage results for Walsh of Ballina 1870s http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mcb/
-
Cooneal
Diocese of Killala | County of Mayo
Variant forms of parish name:
Ballysokeary
Ballysokeery
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0744
-
25th April 1855 left page ??
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634610#page/19/mode/1up
If you browse through register you might get siblings
-
Thank you for all the links to browse!
I think the last link you posted is Anne's birth record. I found this as well, which is where I got her birth year from. If she was born in 1856, that would make her underage for her 1875 wedding, so it matches up. Does it say Patrick Anne Walsh and then Anne Walsh below? And the next line is a different couple's birth, or is it related to the Walshes?
-
It reads to me that Pat and Anne Walsh baptized Ann sponsors were Ed Sweeny and Belinda Sweeny
-
Thanks so much :)
-
The 1901 Census of Ballybrooney shows 3 families of Walsh.
John Walsh 50 wife Mary and children. John married Mary Duggan in 1882 and his father was Patrick, witness was Patt Sweeney, their eldest child was Patrick, their daughter Agnes in census married in 1932 Balliiskerry Church a Patrick Durcan of Killala, her father was listed as John of Ballybrooney.
Michael Walsh 56 wife Catherine and children. Michael married Catherine Sweeney I have been unable to find a marriage for this couple to confirm his fathers name. The eldest child was Patrick born in 1881, usually the eldest is called after the grandfather (not always though). If you can find the marriage it well may confirm Michael Walsh's father was Patrick also.
Its possible that Ann Walsh shown living in 1901 with son Michael was the wife of Patrick Walsh shown in the 1856 birth you have of your ancestor. The marriage record you mention in 1875 the witness would not be the father Patrick this is normally a sibling or a cousin, Patrick is listed as her father, the dates given on marriage records are not to be taken as accurate as with the census records, she would have been 20yrs old not underage, normally over 21yrs is often shown as full age.
The 3rd family are brother and sister John Walsh and Mary the ages in Census 1901/1911 vary greatly another sister Ellen Gillespie widow living with them in 1911.
-
The third family I mentioned John and sister Mary Walsh, I see from the 1911 census he is listed as John Anty, this means son of Anty.
The 1850's Griffiths Valuation lists of Ballybroony show 4 Walsh men Anthony, Michael, Patrick and Thomas. I would say your Ann Walsh and John Walsh in 1901 census are siblings and more than likely Michael is also a sibling, hopefully you can find the marriage of Michael to confirm.
-
Owen, thank you so much for your information and help! I assumed the girl's parents (at least the father) would be witness to her marriage, since fathers usually give their daughters away?
If we have Anne's correct baptism, it shows Ed and Belinda Sweeny as sponsors.
I have a conversation going in a Mayo group on Facebook, and one gentleman said he found two baptisms for Anne's siblings; John in 24 July 1845 and Belinda in 14 Nov 1851. I wasn't able to see the records, nor find them. The Sweeny name, as well as Belinda seem like clues to me. Was Sweeny a common name?
Was there a naming tradition for the first daughter?
-
Michael Walsh 56 wife Catherine and children. Michael married Catherine Sweeney I have been unable to find a marriage for this couple to confirm his fathers name. The eldest child was Patrick born in 1881, usually the eldest is called after the grandfather (not always though). If you can find the marriage it well may confirm Michael Walsh's father was Patrick also.
I found this blog post on Find My Past about traditional irish naming practices: https://blog.findmypast.ie/traditional-irish-naming-patterns-1406390648.html
Based on this, first son is after the paternal grandfather. Second is after maternal grandfather. Third son is after his father.
So for Michael's family in the 1901 census that also includes his mother Ann: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Rathoma/Ballybroony/1574819/
Patrick is the first born son, and Patrick would be Michael's father.
James is the second son. That would mean Catherine's father is named James
But John is the third son. He should be named Michael in this case.
I feel like most of my brick walls are going to have to be broken by common sense, irish traditions and trial and error!
-
I have their marriage record. She was underage, and her father Patrick was a witness. (That's how I know his name, I know nothing else about him). Maria Walsh was also a witness, but cannot verify if she is Anne's mother or another family member.
Ann Coliins died in 1948.
CADI: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VPKS-CL6
Her death certificate list parents as Patrick Walsh & Ann (unknown). Her daughter Josephine was the informant.
Death Cert: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mcj/
=========
Son Michael died in 1940. His mother Ann was informant
Death Cert: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mck/
-
-The Collins family lived in Chicago, Cook County, Illinois until Michael died, sometime before the 1910 Census.
-Anne and Michael had 5 more kids, born in the USA: Francis, Edward, Josephine, Kate, and Florence all born in Cook County, Illinois.
-By the 1920 Census, most of the Collins family had relocated to California.
Michael died in 1904.
In the 1900 census his address is listed as 3555 Princeton Av...Occupation carpenter.
1900 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSSG-899
Death: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2MQ-DD4G
Chicago Tribune
Chicago, Illinois
Tuesday, December 13, 1904 - Page 11
COLLINS Michael, husband of Ann. Funeral Tuesday, at 9 a.m., 3555 Princeton-av.. to Nativity church, carriages to Mount Olivet.
-
I have their marriage record. She was underage, and her father Patrick was a witness. (That's how I know his name, I know nothing else about him). Maria Walsh was also a witness, but cannot verify if she is Anne's mother or another family member.
Ann Coliins died in 1948.
CADI: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VPKS-CL6
Her death certificate list parents as Patrick Walsh & Ann (unknown). Her daughter Josephine was the informant.
Death Cert: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mcj/
=========
Son Michael died in 1940. His mother Ann was informant
Death Cert: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mck/
Great find, thanks so much for the death cert. Too bad they did not know her mother's maiden name, that would have been a huge help. At least I know her name was Ann, so more probability Michael is a brother.
-
Does the signature of Maria Walsh, witness to marriage of Anne Walsh 1875 have "Mrs" written after it or was it "pps" followed by priest's signature? I think the priest was Thomas Timlin.
-
Re naming patterns reply #13. Parents didn't always follow it as Owen said in reply 10. You also need to take into account possible missing births, infant deaths and prior marriages which might have affected any apparent birth order you may see. If a child died young his/her name may have been used again.
-
If we have Anne's correct baptism, it shows Ed and Belinda Sweeny as sponsors.
I have a conversation going in a Mayo group on Facebook, and one gentleman said he found two baptisms for Anne's siblings; John in 24 July 1845 and Belinda in 14 Nov 1851. I wasn't able to see the records, nor find them. The Sweeny name, as well as Belinda seem like clues to me. Was Sweeny a common name?
Sweeney (+ variants) is a common surname. Belinda isn't a common Irish forename as far as I know.
-
Does the signature of Maria Walsh, witness to marriage of Anne Walsh 1875 have "Mrs" written after it or was it "pps" followed by priest's signature? I think the priest was Thomas Timlin.
Hello! Since posting this in July, I have located Anne's siblings and parents. Maria was her youngest sister, so I assume her father Patrick and sister Maria were her witnesses.
But to answer your Q, the signature did not have anything written after it and it has "their marks" written for both Maria and Patrick Walsh. I assumed that to mean they could not write, so the priest signed for them? It does look like Thomas Timlin.
-
Does the signature of Maria Walsh, witness to marriage of Anne Walsh 1875 have "Mrs" written after it or was it "pps" followed by priest's signature? I think the priest was Thomas Timlin.
Hello! Since posting this in July, I have located Anne's siblings and parents. Maria was her youngest sister, so I assume her father Patrick and sister Maria were her witnesses.
But to answer your Q, the signature did not have anything written after it and it has "their marks" written for both Maria and Patrick Walsh. I assumed that to mean they could not write, so the priest signed for them? It does look like Thomas Timlin.
Something was written between Maria's name and the priest's signature. At first glance it looked to me like Mrs. When I looked at it again, properly, it seemed like pps, and may have been pp, Per Procurationem, meaning "through the agency of" or "on behalf of", used when one person signs in place of another. I mentioned it so that someone else might scrutinise it and give a 2nd opinion. The priest wrote capital T like I.