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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: TJ 007 on Friday 13 July 18 04:53 BST (UK)
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I have hit a brick wall and could use some help.
I can’t find Patrick Barrett’s birth record or confirm his parents in NSW.
On his death certificate it has place of birth near Yass.
He died 1919 North Sydney aged 60. Buried at Gore Hill. Father Robert Barrett and Mother Mary Green. The informant was his youngest son.
On his daughter’s birth certificate it lists The place of birth for Patrick as Molonglo NSW and he is aged 28 in 1891.
So his birth year should be around 1859 – 1863. I have broaden the search on NSW BMD from 1850 – 1865 and I can’t find one record of a Patrick Barrett being born near Yass or being born with Robert as the Father and Mary as the Mother.
I left both parents off in case their first names were wrong and I still couldn’t find a match that was close enough. I found a match for a Patrick Barrett in Goulburn for 1863 with Patrick as the Father and Mary as the mother but I have doubts its my one.
I have tried a few different spelling variations for Barrett but nothing close.
I can’t find a marriage record for Robert Barrett or Mary Green either in NSW, even if I leave the first names off.
I have checked a few other states and haven’t found anything. I have considered they could have been married overseas.
I haven’t found a death record for Patrick's father Robert Barrett. On the assumption if Patrick was born in NSW his parents came out here and stayed out here. Searching from 1860- 1930 on NSW BMD. There is few on there but once I double check the obits on Trove the ages or areas don’t match up.
I have the marriage record for Patrick Barrett. He married Elizabeth Griggs in 1886 at Braidwood but unfortunately the place of Birth and parents come up as none recorded.
I have considered Patrick may have come to Australia as a grown man either from England or Ireland but I have 2 records stating he was born in NSW.
I think I am either missing something or one of the records I have has given me the wrong information.
I have checked a few incoming passenger records but its hard to pin point any match that could be my Patrick.
Can someone give me some help or ideas?
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Hi there,
You mention the marriage cert has no names recorded for the 1886 marriage registered Braidwood district. So likely you have either an official transcription or the actual real deal certificate for that NSW registration... Perhaps you may consider having a read through the following thread (although it is becoming quite long, sorry) as it is not unusual for NSW BDM marriages in that era to have blanks.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
Let me know if I can help further, particularly if you have name of clergy or at least the denomination.
JM
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Hi there,
You mention the marriage cert has no names recorded for the 1886 marriage registered Braidwood district. So likely you have either an official transcription or the actual real deal certificate for that NSW registration... Perhaps you may consider having a read through the following thread (although it is becoming quite long, sorry) as it is not unusual for NSW BDM marriages in that era to have blanks.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
Let me know if I can help further, particularly if you have name of clergy or at least the denomination.
JM
Hi JM
That was very interesting your thread on Marriage certificates with blanks. It explains a bit.
I thought maybe they were left blank because Patrick Barrett was a Catholic and Elizabeth Griggs his bride, her family was Church of England. So I thought that may have been a reason.
I have the transcript.
The marriage was 8th Feb 1886 at St Bedes church Braidwood. Roman Catholic.
The minister was Michael D'arcy.
I don't if that can help with any searching?
Kind regards
Tom.
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Who is the informant for the birth of daughter, 1891?
What names do you see for witnesses on marriage record, 1886?
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Who is the informant for the birth of daughter, 1891?
What names do you see for witnesses on marriage record, 1886?
The informant for birth of the daughter is Patrick. That is where I get the born at Molonglo from. They are living at Braidwood then.
The witnesses at the marriage are Henry Griggs, I know that is Elizabeth's brother and the other witness is Elizabeth Barrett. Struggling to trace her back to Patrick. I have searched for her birth recs with Robert & Mary as parents. Found nothing. I have looked for a few marriages for her in case she was his Sister. I have also considered she could be his Mother if the death certificate was wrong.
Nothing really concrete yet on her.
Kind regards
Tom
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Death/funeral notices from Trove. Given the common Braidwood theme it might be worth pursuing the possibility of the parents being the Patrick/Mary you've looked at.
Peter
Death notice (SMH Sat 25 May): Patrick Barrett. 18 May, 1918, at his residence, Reedsdale, Braidwood, aged 97.
Death notice: (SMH 6 Jan 1919): Patrick Barrett. 4 Jan 1919, at the Mater Misericordiea Hospital, beloved husband of Elizabeth Barrett of Bega, Mitchell Street, St Leonards, aged 60 years, late of Braidwood.
Funeral notice: (SMH 6 Jan 1919): The relatives and friends of Mrs Elizabeth Barrett and family are invited to attend the funeral of her late husband and their father, Patrick; to leave Bega, Mitchell Street St Leonards this day at 10.30 a.m. for Catholic Cemetery, Gore Hill.
Walter Bruce Undertaker, ‘phone North 923, Lane Cove Road, Crow’s Nest.
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Death/funeral notices from Trove. Given the common Braidwood theme it might be worth pursuing the possibility of the parents being the Patrick/Mary you've looked at.
Peter
Death notice (SMH Sat 25 May): Patrick Barrett. 18 May, 1918, at his residence, Reedsdale, Braidwood, aged 97.
Death notice: (SMH 6 Jan 1919): Patrick Barrett. 4 Jan 1919, at the Mater Misericordiea Hospital, beloved husband of Elizabeth Barrett of Bega, Mitchell Street, St Leonards, aged 60 years, late of Braidwood.
Funeral notice: (SMH 6 Jan 1919): The relatives and friends of Mrs Elizabeth Barrett and family are invited to attend the funeral of her late husband and their father, Patrick; to leave Bega, Mitchell Street St Leonards this day at 10.30 a.m. for Catholic Cemetery, Gore Hill.
Walter Bruce Undertaker, ‘phone North 923, Lane Cove Road, Crow’s Nest.
Thanks McGroger.
The last 2 are him.
I looked into the Barrett's of Reidsdale. Not too long ago. I found the family Patrick Barrett and Ellen Comans. There is a few trees on Ancestry linking my Patrick and Elizabeth Griggs to their trees. quite a few of that family seem to be around the Reidsdale area. My Patrick was a touch south around Brushy Hill in 1891.
I don't know on that one. I need a bit more proof.
Kind Regards
Tom
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:)
http://stbedesb.nsw.edu.au/parish/ Perhaps if you make initial enquiry via email, asking how you go about learning of the location of that parish register for 1886, and attaching pdf of the m.c. showing the blanks, perhaps ... well a response should at least give location of the register. These registers are usually findable.
ADD ... they do have a nominal charge ... scroll down...
JM
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What children do you have for Patrick BARRETT and Elizabeth GRIGGS?
What occupation for Patrick BARRETT?
What date and place of death do you have for Elizabeth BARRETT nee GRIGGS?
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:)
http://stbedesb.nsw.edu.au/parish/ Perhaps if you make initial enquiry via email, asking how you go about learning of the location of that parish register for 1886, and attaching pdf of the m.c. showing the blanks, perhaps ... well a response should at least give location of the register. These registers are usually findable.
ADD ... they do have a nominal charge ... scroll down...
JM
Thanks very much JM I will look into that.
It would be good if the marriage record from the parish contains the parents names.
Kind regards
Tom
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What children do you have for Patrick BARRETT and Elizabeth GRIGGS?
What occupation for Patrick BARRETT?
What date and place of death do you have for Elizabeth BARRETT nee GRIGGS?
I have William John 1888, Annie Maria 1891 and Patrick 1894. All born at Braidwood.
For Elizabeth I found her death notice on trove. She died 19 Dec 1938 6 Lighthouse st north Sydney.
She is buried at Macquarie park with her son William John.
In the obit it lists another child Susie whom I didn't know about. I found no birth record for Susie to Patrick and Elizabeth yet.
Kind regards
Tom.
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SMH 12 Dec 1938 p12
BARRETT.- December 19, 1938, at her residence, 6 Lighthouse Street, North Sydney, Elizabeth,
beloved mother of William, Patrick, Annie, and Susie. Aged 79 years. R.I.P.
SMH 14 Aug 1920 p12
TWOMEY (nee May Le Sur) - August 6, at Bega, Mitchell Street, St. Leonards - a daughter.
BDM NSW marriage
4874/1919 TWOMEY Timothy J m. LESUR May @ St Leonards
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SMH 12 Dec 1938 p12
BARRETT.- December 19, 1938, at her residence, 6 Lighthouse Street, North Sydney, Elizabeth,
beloved mother of William, Patrick, Annie, and Susie. Aged 79 years. R.I.P.
SMH 14 Aug 1920 p12
TWOMEY (nee May Le Sur) - August 6, at Bega, Mitchell Street, St. Leonards - a daughter.
BDM NSW marriage
4874/1919 TWOMEY Timothy J m. LESUR May @ St Leonards
Yes the top one is Elizabeth. I don't recognised the bottom 2 names.
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Monaro Pioneers site has some information re Patrick BARRETT who married Elizabeth GRIGGS. this site is usually reliable but you would need to check for yourself. I think you may have to register to view it but it's free.
http://www.monaropioneers.com/TNG/getperson.php?personID=I228268&tree=MP
Patrick BARRETT, b 1864
Parents: Patrick BARRETT, b. 1821, County Limerick, d. 18 May 1918, Reidsdale, NSW (Age 97 years)
Ellen COMANS, b. 1835, Balintemple, d. 1 Jun 1909, Braidwood, NSW (Age 74 years)
the date of this couple's marriage (your Patrick's parents) is:
11 Sep 1853 Catholic Church, Araluen, NSW,
Ref: NSW BDM Index, V1853510 99/1853
Elizabeth GRIGGS, 10 Jun 1862, reg Braidwood, NSW BDM, 6022/1863
Her parents:
James GRIGGS b. Abt 1801, Surrey, England,d. 4 Jan 1884, Braidwood,
Harriett VIDLER, b. 24 Oct 1830, Sandhurst, Kent, d. 19 Jan 1914, Braidwood, New South Wales
Married: 9 Apr 1851, reg Narellan, NSW BDM Index, V1851372 37B/1851
The children listed for Patrick and Elizabeth are the three you mention earlier -
William John, b. 1888, Braidwood, d. 10 Sep 1955, North Sydney,
Annie Margaret, b. 1891, Braidwood,
Patrick b 1894, Braidwood
It is useful to remember, unless the actual place of birth is specified, the place referred to in indexes is usually the place of registration, which in country areas may be some distance from the birthplace.
Monaro Pioneers lists siblings and parents for your Patrick and for Elizabeth.
Also the arrival of Ellen COMANS per ship Calcutta, aged 3, her parents.
Judith
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NSW BDM marriage
12578/1917 BARRETT Susan m. SINGLETON Michael B @ St Leonards
Electoral Roll 1930 at 12 Lighthouse St North Sydney
SINGLETON Susie home duties
SINGLETON Michael Bryant barman
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Monaro Pioneers site has some information re Patrick BARRETT who married Elizabeth GRIGGS. this site is usually reliable but you would need to check for yourself. I think you may have to register to view it but it's free.
http://www.monaropioneers.com/TNG/getperson.php?personID=I228268&tree=MP
Patrick BARRETT, b 1864
Parents: Patrick BARRETT, b. 1821, County Limerick, d. 18 May 1918, Reidsdale, NSW (Age 97 years)
Ellen COMANS, b. 1835, Balintemple, d. 1 Jun 1909, Braidwood, NSW (Age 74 years)
the date of this couple's marriage (your Patrick's parents) is:
11 Sep 1853 Catholic Church, Araluen, NSW,
Ref: NSW BDM Index, V1853510 99/1853
Elizabeth GRIGGS, 10 Jun 1862, reg Braidwood, NSW BDM, 6022/1863
Her parents:
James GRIGGS b. Abt 1801, Surrey, England,d. 4 Jan 1884, Braidwood,
Harriett VIDLER, b. 24 Oct 1830, Sandhurst, Kent, d. 19 Jan 1914, Braidwood, New South Wales
Married: 9 Apr 1851, reg Narellan, NSW BDM Index, V1851372 37B/1851
The children listed for Patrick and Elizabeth are the three you mention earlier -
William John, b. 1888, Braidwood, d. 10 Sep 1955, North Sydney,
Annie Margaret, b. 1891, Braidwood,
Patrick b 1894, Braidwood
It is useful to remember, unless the actual place of birth is specified, the place referred to in indexes is usually the place of registration, which in country areas may be some distance from the birthplace.
Monaro Pioneers lists siblings and parents for your Patrick and for Elizabeth.
Also the arrival of Ellen COMANS per ship Calcutta, aged 3, her parents.
Judith
Thank you very much Judith there is some good information there and I will check it out.
The information for Elizabeth is correct. I have different parents for Patrick but only the one source.
Every thing else looks ok though
Thanks for the tip on birth area.
Kind Regards
Tom
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NSW BDM marriage
12578/1917 BARRETT Susan m. SINGLETON Michael B @ St Leonards
Electoral Roll 1930 at 12 Lighthouse St North Sydney
SINGLETON Susie home duties
SINGLETON Michael Bryant barman
Thank you very much.
A relative of mine mentioned a long time ago there were Singleton's in the family.
12 Lighthouse st is couple up from Elizabeth Barrett.
I can't find Susie or Susan Barrett's birth record yet to Patrick or Elizabeth but it looks like she was their daughter.
Kind regards
Tom
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Just a small hint which may -or may not - be useful. Patrick's daughter's BC shows his birthplace as Molonglo - there is a Monga about 10k from Reidsdale. Perhaps this is what was meant? Just a thought!
Judith
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An obit for the Patrick who may be the father of your Patrick - died May1918
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/116773540
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119234243
And here an anomaly - the Monaro Pioneers site gives Patrick senior's wif as Ellen COMANS but thi newspaper report gives the name of the wife as nee RYAN. The death date is the same ??? ??? ???
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/103675624
NSW BMD index gives her parents' forenames as James and Katherine.
Time for me to stop tonight - will have another hunt tomorrow.
Judith
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Just a small hint which may -or may not - be useful. Patrick's daughter's BC shows his birthplace as Molonglo - there is a Monga about 10k from Reidsdale. Perhaps this is what was meant? Just a thought!
Judith
Thanks Judith I am not sure where Molonglo is. I did search on Google and today all I could find was Molonglo Valley near Canberra.
There is also a Mongarlowe (different spelling ) near Braidwood too.
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An obit for the Patrick who may be the father of your Patrick - died May1918
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/116773540
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119234243
And here an anomaly - the Monaro Pioneers site gives Patrick senior's wif as Ellen COMANS but thi newspaper report gives the name of the wife as nee RYAN. The death date is the same ??? ??? ???
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/103675624
NSW BMD index gives her parents' forenames as James and Katherine.
Time for me to stop tonight - will have another hunt tomorrow.
Judith
I have Mary Green as Patrick's possible Mother. Only one source though.
I will look into the Monaro site tomorrow.
Thank you for your help.
Have a good night.
Kind regards
Tom
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I am confident that's Molonglo :) I will look up my 19th Century NSW electoral rolls tomorrow. Here's a reason to be confident about Molonglo ...
Molonglo River, (flows through)
Several Parishes,
County of Murray
Land District of Queanbeyan
Pastures Protection District of Braidwood
Local Govt Authority of Eurabodella Shire
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=678243.0
and
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230389552 Gaz 2 Jan 1833
https://trove.nla.gov.au/
Grevilles 1872 directory: http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=338 (notice nearby localities)
JM
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http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=106 BRAIDWOOD, Grevilles 1872 :)
and
http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=428 REIDSDALE same Dir.
JM
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:)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/14005216?q&versionId=16558763
JM
I thought I was posting on this thread... well at least it is here now. ::)
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And here an anomaly - the Monaro Pioneers site gives Patrick senior's wif as Ellen COMANS but thi newspaper report gives the name of the wife as nee RYAN. The death date is the same ??? ??? ???
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/103675624
Judith
She wasn't a RYAN. She arrived aged 3 with her family in 1838. Here is the transcribed information from entitlement certificate:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DT49-47P
James and Catherine had another daughter after arrival named Catherine Mary and it was her who married a RYAN. She was the mother of vocalist "Marie Narelle", real name Catherine Mary RYAN.
At some stage someone got mixed up and thought that Ellen and "Marie Narelle" were sisters but they were actually aunt and niece.
Obit for Ellen's brother William COMANS:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/112294601
Debra :)
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NSW Electoral Roll 1870 BRAIDWOOD
The following are ALL those listed with the surname as BARRETT,
Denis, (of) Araluen, residence, Bald Hills
Denis, Charles Forest, freehold, Charles Forest
Denis, Charles Forest, freehold, Charles Forest (so three entries, likely three chaps named Denis BARRETT, and two of them are shown as of Charles Forest as freeholders located at Charles Forest)
James, Araluen, residence, Bald Hills
John, Reidsdale, freehold, Reidsdale
John, junior, Reidsdale, residence, Reidsdale
Michael, Reidsdale, freehold, Reidsdale
Patrick, Monkittee, leasehold, Monkittee
Patrick, Reidsdale, freehold, Reidsdale
Thomas, Reidsdale, freehold, Reidsdale
Thomas, junior, Reidsdale, residence, Reidsdale
William, Reidsdale, residence, Reidsdale
NSW Electoral Roll 1878 BRAIDWOOD
BARRETT:
John, Braidwood, freehold, Braidwood
Patrick, Reidsdale, residence, Reidsdale
Denis, Araluen, household, Crown Flat
Denis, Charles’s Forest, freehold, Charles’s Forest
John, Reidsdale, freehold, Reidsdale
John, junior, Reidsdale, residence, Reidsdale
Michael, Reidsdale, freehold, Reidsdale
Patrick, Monkittee, leasehold, Monkittee
Patrick, Reidsdale, freehold, Reidsdale
Thomas, Reidsdale, freehold, Reidsdale
Thomas, Reidsdale, residence, Reidsdale
Michael, Reidsdale, residence, Reidsdale
Patrick, Boro, residence, Boro
GREVILLES 1875 PO DIRECTORY
Boro … County of Argyle
Andrew BARRETT, farmer
Molonglo … County of Murray
Braidwood … county of St Vincent
Patrick BARRETT, contractor
Reidsdale, County of St Vincent
John BARRETT, farmer
Michael BARRETT, farmer
Patrick BARRETT, farmer
Thomas BARRETT, farmer
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/county-parish-maps-guide Good info in this guide.
Land and Property Info now in private hands.
http://www.nswlrs.com.au/land_titles/historical_records_online/where_to_look
Historic Parish Maps
http://www.nswlrs.com.au/land_titles/historical_records_online/historical_maps_cancelled_editions and
http://hlrv.nswlrs.com.au/pixel.htm … use keyword of County or Town to start.
JM edit re typo ans now reads and
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Re BARRETT and Reidsdale…
NSW State Archives online INDEX has a Mr BARRETT, Reidsdale/Reedsdale, Parish of St Vincent, District of Braidwood as an entry at pg 71 on Reel 2222 for the 1841 NSW Census. I understand that Ancestry has uploaded the 1841 Census images.
I wonder if I may speculate … Is it possible that the Society of Australian Genealogists (SAG, HQ in Sydney NSW) can help …. I see there’s a possible file there for a Patrick BARRETT per the ship Margaret, and born circa 1821 who died 1918 at Reidsdale NSW …
http://www.sag.org.au/
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/search_form?id=49 Search just by “Margaret” as the vessel name…
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/immigration-and-shipping/indexes
ADD
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/series/1291 includes following note
A card index to free passengers, masters and other persons listed in the Reports of vessels arrived, July 1826-1853, has been prepared by State Archives and is available in the Western Sydney reading room (microfilm copy SR Reels 1358-1372).
JM
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An obit for the Patrick who may be the father of your Patrick - died May1918
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/116773540
....
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/bourke-sir-richard-1806 The Governor arrived with his family in Sydney on 3 December 1831.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32076404 Sydney Monitor 3 Dec 1831 per the vessel Margaret
Judith has already given the Freeman’s Journal of 27 June 1918 … Born in Limerick, he came as a boy of eight with his father to NSW in 1831 with the rest of a family of ten in the vessel which brought out Gov BOURKE. …. Family to Reidsdale in 1838
JM
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I am confident that's Molonglo :) I will look up my 19th Century NSW electoral rolls tomorrow. Here's a reason to be confident about Molonglo ...
Molonglo River, (flows through)
Several Parishes,
County of Murray
Land District of Queanbeyan
Pastures Protection District of Braidwood
Local Govt Authority of Eurabodella Shire
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=678243.0
and
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230389552 Gaz 2 Jan 1833
https://trove.nla.gov.au/
Grevilles 1872 directory: http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=338 (notice nearby localities)
JM
Thats brilliant JM.
I was really struggling to locate Molonglo on modern maps and all I could find was Molonglo Valley but your link solved that and judging by that is near Queanbeyan. Am I correct in saying all birth that happened in the A.C.T prior to 1930 would still come under NSW?
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http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=106 BRAIDWOOD, Grevilles 1872 :)
and
http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=428 REIDSDALE same Dir.
JM
I looked at my transcripts/certificates and my Patrick was a Farmer labour in 1886 at Six Mile Flat and a Farmer by 1891 at Brushy Hill.
I did find Patrick Barrett on trove buying land with William McCaffrey in 1882 at Six Mile flat. It is him as 4 year later his usual residence on his marriage record is Six Mile Flat.
I had a look on the Monaro pioneers website and they have a Patrick Barrett born 1864 to Ellen Comans and Patrick Barrett.
They also have the Elizabeth Griggs as Patrick's wife. I just can't confirm it yet as it disagrees with my death certificate.
My Death certificate for Patrick in 1919 said His Father was Robert Barrett A grazier and Mary Green as Patrick's Mother.
I will try the Braidwood parish records as you suggested next week to try and get the parents of the marriage register.
Thanks to all I really appreciate the help given to me on this thread.
Kind regards
Tom
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Re NSW BDM and ACT to 1930 ... yes, on NSW BDM :)
https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/australian-birth-death-and-marriage-records/australian-capital-territory
NB: For births in the Canberra region prior to 1918 see the indexes of New South Wales. For marriage and death records prior to 1930 also see New South Wales. Registrations of these events in the Canberra region may be recorded under the Districts of Queanbeyan or Yass.
ADD
So, births less than 100 years ago, upto 1930, in the ACT were registered on NSW BDM records. So, under 100 years rule, they are not yet displaying on NSW BDM online index. BUT ... I am not sure if NSW Reg Gen forwarded copy of those ACT registrations to ACT BDM ... remembering NSW Reg Gen forwarded VIC and Qld etc through to those Reg Gens. My reliable rellie who will know is currently on holiday. ::)
JM
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I'm not 100% convinced that "Molonglo" is his actual birthplace.
There was, certainly a hamlet/district/are known as Molonglo in the historic county of Argyle. This area is much closer to Bungendore/Canberra/Queanbeyan. The map I've linked actually shows "Balcombe's Hill" which is mentioned in the land sales cited by JM
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230389552 Gaz 2 Jan 1833
The other settlements mentioned in the Grevilles 1872 directory are south of Bungendore.
Link to historic map:
https://antiqueprintmaproom.com/antique-maps-plans/australia/maps-australia-act/county-of-murray
Almost all of the information about this family is centred on the Braidwood/Reidsdale area which is more than 65k from Molonglo.
Judith
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I'm not 100% convinced that "Molonglo" is his actual birthplace.
There was, certainly a hamlet/district/are known as Molonglo in the historic county of Argyle. This area is much closer to Bungendore/Canberra/Queanbeyan. The map I've linked actually shows "Balcombe's Hill" which is mentioned in the land sales cited by JM
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230389552 Gaz 2 Jan 1833
The other settlements mentioned in the Grevilles 1872 directory are south of Bungendore.
Link to historic map:
https://antiqueprintmaproom.com/antique-maps-plans/australia/maps-australia-act/county-of-murray
Almost all of the information about this family is centred on the Braidwood/Reidsdale area which is more than 65k from Molonglo.
Judith
Thank you Judith that is a very good map to look at and understand the area's a bit more in regards to each other.
All I really know of him are from the 2 certificates/transcripts. The marriage one says Molonglo as place of birth the death certificate says near Yass. They could be wrong or just a bit further a field.
I looked on Monaro pioneers list for Patrick Barrett and a few of the potential brothers and sisters were born at Araluen and then Braidwood. After that the one's born in the 1860's appeared to be at Reidsdale.
Which should be the time my Patrick was born. Maybe he is part of that family and when he his Mother was expecting she was a little further a field than Reidsdale? hence the other location?
Kind Regards
Tom
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Re NSW BDM and ACT to 1930 ... yes, on NSW BDM :)
https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/australian-birth-death-and-marriage-records/australian-capital-territory
NB: For births in the Canberra region prior to 1918 see the indexes of New South Wales. For marriage and death records prior to 1930 also see New South Wales. Registrations of these events in the Canberra region may be recorded under the Districts of Queanbeyan or Yass.
ADD
So, births less than 100 years ago, upto 1930, in the ACT were registered on NSW BDM records. So, under 100 years rule, they are not yet displaying on NSW BDM online index. BUT ... I am not sure if NSW Reg Gen forwarded copy of those ACT registrations to ACT BDM ... remembering NSW Reg Gen forwarded VIC and Qld etc through to those Reg Gens. My reliable rellie who will know is currently on holiday. ::)
JM
Thanks JM that could explain why my Patrick's birth doesn't show up on NSW BMD. :D
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I should also mention that I agree with Judith re birthplace... put it down to my wordsmithing... but I was confirming that Molonglo existed and locating it, not meaning to confirm I knew it as the birthplace for your ancestor.
::)
JM
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These obits for the siblings of Patrick (son of Patrick BARRETT and Ellen COMANS) imply that this Patrick died between 1932 and 1946.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119357143
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119263617
Debra :)
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I should also mention that I agree with Judith re birthplace... put it down to my wordsmithing... but I was confirming that Molonglo existed and locating it, not meaning to confirm I knew it as the birthplace for your ancestor.
::)
JM
No worries :)
Confirmation for me the place exists is something for me to consider. I have my doubts too he was born directly there.
If I can get in contact with the Braidwood parish and the marriage records they may have, it could help provide me with the answers or at least another clue.
Kind Regards
Tom
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These obits for the siblings of Patrick (son of Patrick BARRETT and Ellen COMANS) imply that this Patrick died between 1932 and 1946.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119357143
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119263617
Debra :)
Thank you very much Debra.
Good find.
If those obits are correct then he can't be my Patrick and my Patrick's parents can't be Patrick Barrett and Ellen Comans then.
My Patrick died 1919.
Kind regards
Tom
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Re NSW BDM and ACT to 1930 ... yes, on NSW BDM :)
https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/australian-birth-death-and-marriage-records/australian-capital-territory
NB: For births in the Canberra region prior to 1918 see the indexes of New South Wales. For marriage and death records prior to 1930 also see New South Wales. Registrations of these events in the Canberra region may be recorded under the Districts of Queanbeyan or Yass.
ADD
So, births less than 100 years ago, upto 1930, in the ACT were registered on NSW BDM records. So, under 100 years rule, they are not yet displaying on NSW BDM online index. BUT ... I am not sure if NSW Reg Gen forwarded copy of those ACT registrations to ACT BDM ... remembering NSW Reg Gen forwarded VIC and Qld etc through to those Reg Gens. My reliable rellie who will know is currently on holiday. ::)
JM
Is it possible that not all births, marriages and deaths in the Canberra region prior to 1930 were indexed on NSW BDM?
If so how would one go about tracing a record from the Canberra region mid 1800's? Parishes records?
Cath.
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"... My Patrick was a touch south around Brushy Hill in 1891. "
Where do you see your BARRETT family at this location, 1891?
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"... My Patrick was a touch south around Brushy Hill in 1891. "
Where do you see your BARRETT family at this location, 1891?
On his daughters (Annie Maria) birth record.
Informant Patrick Barrett Brushy Hill.
I also found the 1891 NSW census for a Pat Barrett at Brushy Hill.
He was at Six Mile Flat early 1880's
Where about's is yours?
Kind Regards
Tom
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Sorry I led you astray as I do think now that the Monaro Pioneers have the wrong Patrick. Are their details correct for Elizabeth GRIGGS and the children?
I'm also thinking that perhaps "Molonglo" is correct as you have said that 'near Yass' is another place mentioned for his birth.
Are Brushy Hill and Six Mile Flat near Braidwood, which is the registration place for the children.
Just trying to tidy up my brain!!
Judith
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Sorry I led you astray as I do think now that the Monaro Pioneers have the wrong Patrick. Are their details correct for Elizabeth GRIGGS and the children?
I'm also thinking that perhaps "Molonglo" is correct as you have said that 'near Yass' is another place mentioned for his birth.
Are Brushy Hill and Six Mile Flat near Braidwood, which is the registration place for the children.
Just trying to tidy up my brain!!
Judith
Thats ok Judith I had to look into it. It kept coming up on trees. Good that Debra found the obits to rule it out.
The details for Elizabeth and the children are correct. The Griggs family is pretty easy to trace. Patrick is the problem.
Brushy Hill is a tad North of Braidwood.
http://www.bonzle.com/c/a?a=p&p=24800&cmd=sp&op=8
I don't know the exact location of Six mile Flat (whether North or South) but its near Braidwood. I think its close by Brushy Hill. It on the 1891 census. There are a few entries above Brushy Hill and a few of then are Six Mile Flat.One has William McCaffrey residing there.
Patrick bought land there in 1882 with William McCaffrey. I found that on trove.
Kind Regards
Tom
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Hi and welcome, best place on the web for help with family history.
Yes all of the Australian Capital Territory was definitely New South Wales all lthrough 19th century. NSW bdm holdings/early church records are not complete but are a good starting point.
If you were to start a new topic lots of help should respond to it.
JM edit to sort spelling error. :-[
Re NSW BDM and ACT to 1930 ... yes, on NSW BDM :)
https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/australian-birth-death-and-marriage-records/australian-capital-territory
NB: For births in the Canberra region prior to 1918 see the indexes of New South Wales. For marriage and death records prior to 1930 also see New South Wales. Registrations of these events in the Canberra region may be recorded under the Districts of Queanbeyan or Yass.
ADD
So, births less than 100 years ago, upto 1930, in the ACT were registered on NSW BDM records. So, under 100 years rule, they are not yet displaying on NSW BDM online index. BUT ... I am not sure if NSW Reg Gen forwarded copy of those ACT registrations to ACT BDM ... remembering NSW Reg Gen forwarded VIC and Qld etc through to those Reg Gens. My reliable rellie who will know is currently on holiday. ::)
JM
Is it possible that not all births, marriages and deaths in the Canberra region prior to 1930 were indexed on NSW BDM?
If so how would one go about tracing a record from the Canberra region mid 1800's? Parishes records?
Cath.
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Is this your BARRETT....in service at age seven?
Braidwood Dispatch and Mining Journal 30 May 1908 p2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/100792513?
(Annie Maria BARRETT in employ of CHAPMAN at Spring Grove)……….said she would be 17 in January next; had been at service since she was seven years old; she was with Mrs EDMUNDS until she was 14 as nurse girl...……
...was in service at Mr CRAIG's...….
-
Yes it is, her birth date is correct.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/index_image/2138_a006_a00603_6073000082r
Debra :)
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http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/place_naming/placename_search/extract?id=ItwGWytL GPS location for Brushy Hill, near Braidwood.
http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/place_naming/placename_search/extract?id=TRIOvqsyGH GPS location for Six Mile Flat, near Braidwood.
Notice these index results give (Civil) Parish and County, handy info to help with inspecting online historic parish maps for land holdings by various family members...
http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/place_naming/placename_search
JM
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Is this your BARRETT....in service at age seven?
Braidwood Dispatch and Mining Journal 30 May 1908 p2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/100792513?
(Annie Maria BARRETT in employ of CHAPMAN at Spring Grove)……….said she would be 17 in January next; had been at service since she was seven years old; she was with Mrs EDMUNDS until she was 14 as nurse girl...……
...was in service at Mr CRAIG's...….
Yes it is, her birth date is correct.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/index_image/2138_a006_a00603_6073000082r
Debra :)
Thank you for the article and picture.
I think its her. I don't have any photo's of her at that age. I have one where she is a lot older and thinner. Everything else seems to match up. Her birthday matches on the record Debra found. 22 August 1891.
There can't be too many Annie Marie Barrett's born in Braidwood with the exact birth date. Alas it appears to be true.
The article in The Mercury (made the news in a Tasmania paper of all places :)) 14th May 1908.
It paints it as a practical joke. She appears to have received mercy from the jury. With their verdict guilty but without the intent to annoy. Which the judge didn't accept.
In the Goulburn Evening Penny Post the judge takes into the consideration of the jury for mercy and gave her 9 months light labour in Goulburn gaol.
One mistake however so young shouldn't define her. My Father told me a long time ago she was a good and kind to him.
Kind regards
Tom
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http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/place_naming/placename_search/extract?id=ItwGWytL GPS location for Brushy Hill, near Braidwood.
http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/place_naming/placename_search/extract?id=TRIOvqsyGH GPS location for Six Mile Flat, near Braidwood.
Notice these index results give (Civil) Parish and County, handy info to help with inspecting online historic parish maps for land holdings by various family members...
http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/place_naming/placename_search
JM
Thanks JM. Handy website.
I like the description of Brushy Hill ;D A hill about 5.2 km NNW of Braidwood.
Definitely in the right area. I noticed for Six Mile Flat the link you sent, it has Euradux as a nearby locality. Along with nearby Durran Durra that is the birthplace of a lot of the Griggs family.
Kind Regards
Tom
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NSW ER 1902 EDEN-MONARO, polling at Braidwood
BARRETT as surname:
Elizabeth Griggs, of Braidwood, domestic duties
John Edward, Braidwood, tailor
Julia, Braidwood, domestic duties
Matilda, Braidwood, domestic duties,
Patrick, Braidwood, labourer
GRIGG as surname:
Charlotte, Six-mile Flat, domestic duties
Edward, Six-mile Flat, farmer
Eliza, Six-mile Flat, domestic duties
Eliza, Six-mile Flat, domestic duties (Yes, JM confirms two by that name at that polling place)
Thomas William, Six-mile Flat, farmer
1902 roll, first to include females. Ancestry has 1903/4 and later rolls - possibly FindMyPast has rolls too.
JM
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NSW ER 1902 EDEN-MONARO, polling at Braidwood
BARRETT as surname:
Elizabeth Griggs, of Braidwood, domestic duties
John Edward, Braidwood, tailor
Julia, Braidwood, domestic duties
Matilda, Braidwood, domestic duties,
Patrick, Braidwood, labourer
GRIGG as surname:
Charlotte, Six-mile Flat, domestic duties
Edward, Six-mile Flat, farmer
Eliza, Six-mile Flat, domestic duties
Eliza, Six-mile Flat, domestic duties (Yes, JM confirms two by that name at that polling place)
Thomas William, Six-mile Flat, farmer
1902 roll, first to include females. Ancestry has 1903/4 and later rolls - possibly FindMyPast has rolls too.
JM
Thanks JM.
Elizabeth Griggs and Patrick Barrett are correct. I don't recognise the other Barrett's though.
I don't recognise any of the Griggs. There was a brother of Elizabeth's called Thomas Henry not Thomas William.
Maybe the Eliza Grigg voted twice ;D Unless its a Mother and Daughter?
I will check the rolls on Ancestry.
Kind regards
Tom
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1878 NSW ER BRAIDWOOD
Robert GRIGG junior, Araluen, residence, Crown Flat, Aruleun
Robert GRIGG, Araluen, household, Favourite Flat, Aruleun
James GRIGGS, Durran Durra, freehold, Durran Durra
James GRIGGS junior, Uradox, freehold, Uradox
1870 NSW ER BRAIDWOOD … no GRIGG or GRIGGS are listed. (earlier post gives BARRETT listings #25 for 1870 and 1878 ER Braidwood :) )
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKKQ-KT4B
Image 41 of 146
1891 NSW Householders Census County of St Vincent, Census District 42 Braidwood, sub-district of Elrington, (Elrington not a municipality) Majors Creek Goldfield.
County of St Vincent,
REIDSDALE
Patrick BARRETT, 3 males, 13 females
Mary Barrett, 1 male, 3 females
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKKQ-K5K8
Image 130 of 146.
1891 NSW Householders Census County of St Vincent, Census District 42, Braidwood, subdistrict of Church & School
BRUSHY HILL
Pat BARRETT, 2 males, 3 females.
JM
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NSW ER 1902 EDEN-MONARO polling Reidsdale (needed to be British Subject, aged 21 and over, not compulsory to enrol)
BARRETT
Ann, Reidsdale, domestic duties.
Ellen, Reidsdale, domestic duties.
John, Reidsdale, farmer
Patrick, Reidsdale, farmer
Thomas, Reidsdale, farmer
JM
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1878 NSW ER BRAIDWOOD
Robert GRIGG junior, Araluen, residence, Crown Flat, Aruleun
Robert GRIGG, Araluen, household, Favourite Flat, Aruleun
James GRIGGS, Durran Durra, freehold, Durran Durra
James GRIGGS junior, Uradox, freehold, Uradox
1870 NSW ER BRAIDWOOD … no GRIGG or GRIGGS are listed. (earlier post gives BARRETT listings #25 for 1870 and 1878 ER Braidwood :) )
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKKQ-KT4B
Image 41 of 146
1891 NSW Householders Census County of St Vincent, Census District 42 Braidwood, sub-district of Elrington, (Elrington not a municipality) Majors Creek Goldfield.
County of St Vincent,
REIDSDALE
Patrick BARRETT, 3 males, 13 females
Mary Barrett, 1 male, 3 females
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKKQ-K5K8
Image 130 of 146.
1891 NSW Householders Census County of St Vincent, Census District 42, Braidwood, subdistrict of Church & School
BRUSHY HILL
Pat BARRETT, 2 males, 3 females.
JM
Thank you.
The 2 James Griggs are mine at Durran Durra.
So is the Pat Barrett at Brushy Hill.
Unfortunately the Barrett's or Reidsdale are not related. A shame it would have made the searching easier. ;)
Kind Regards
Tom
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...
Unfortunately the Barrett's or Reidsdale are not related. A shame it would have made the searching easier. ;)
Kind Regards
Tom
I am popping the following here, so that others know the details that are NOT for your BARRETT family, as there are several RChatters who go to the Archives at Kingswood just to take images of the files there, to then share those images with RChat enquirers.
NSW State Archives
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/keyname and also https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research
and of course Quick Links
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
and this webinar recording on NSW Probate Records… (about an hour long) https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/nsw-probate-records
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/594678
Deceased Estates ONLINE Index
John BARRETT, Reidsdale, DD 29 Sept 1882 reel 3025
Michael BARRETT, Reidsdale DD 2 Dec 1888 Duty Paid 24 Aug 1889 reel 3026
Patrick BARRETT, Reidsdale near Braidwood, DD 18 May 1918, Duty Paid 25 Feb 1818, reel 3033.
E GRIGG, Braidwood, DD 3 Feb 1913, Duty 21 May 1913, reel 3031
Eliza GRIGG, Packwood, Braidwood, DD 21 Mar 1935, Duty 22 Dec 1936, widow
James GRIGGS, Durran Durran near Braidwood (nope, not my spelling error !) DD 4 Jan 1884. JM notes index shows Z03882 [20/6990] so possibly a ziltch file
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/594678
Reidsdale near Jembaicumbene Creek Road from Araluen to Braidwood, Parish of Seymour, County of St Vincent. Part of grants to Patrick and Thoms BARRETT, John Caitlin and David Reid 1838 to 1856, Vol 3441, Folio…
JM
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:)
http://stbedesb.nsw.edu.au/parish/ Perhaps if you make initial enquiry via email, asking how you go about learning of the location of that parish register for 1886, and attaching pdf of the m.c. showing the blanks, perhaps ... well a response should at least give location of the register. These registers are usually findable.
ADD ... they do have a nominal charge ... scroll down...
JM
Thank you very much JM for your advice on the parish registers. It was worth the effort.
I contacted St Bedes at Braidwood and they provided me with the missing details from my original marriage transcription.
I now have a 2nd source stating Patrick was born at Molonglo.
Age given in 1886 was 24.
There is a confliction on the Father.
It now has John Reeves (occupation carpenter) as his Father as (opposed to Robert Barrett) and a slight change on the first name for his Mother Ann Green instead of Mary Green.
Do you or anyone else know.
Patrick was married in a catholic church, would he in 1886 have to have provided a copy of his baptismal certificate to the Minister before the marriage?
If he did, would that surely mean the parents listed on his marriage record are more likely to be correct, than his death certificate?
Kind regard
Tom
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The info on the marriage register is information given first hand, while the info on the death register cannot be first hand, so in that sense it is sensible to place more reliance on a marriage register than on a death register. Remember too that in the 1880s that the respect shown to clergy was far greater than that shown today. I notice that the surname of Patrick's dad is different from the surname Patrick used on marriage. To me that is a positive to indicating the info on the marriage is truthful. Whether a baptism certificate was required or not .... that depends on the individual clergy, but the info Patrick gave about himself is the critical factor, NSW BDM did not require certified proof handed to the clergy for the marriage to take place.
JM
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The info on the marriage register is information given first hand, while the info on the death register cannot be first hand, so in that sense it is sensible to place more reliance on a marriage register than on a death register. Remember too that in the 1880s that the respect shown to clergy was far greater than that shown today. I notice that the surname of Patrick's dad is different from the surname Patrick used on marriage. To me that is a positive to indicating the info on the marriage is truthful. Whether a baptism certificate was required or not .... that depends on the individual clergy, but the info Patrick gave about himself is the critical factor, NSW BDM did not require certified proof handed to the clergy for the marriage to take place.
JM
Thanks JM.
The two different father's names have confused the situation more but I was hoping that the information on the marriage record was more reliable. As you say given first hand which is better.
Someone told me Patrick & Elizabeth (who was church of England) may have had to produce their baptism certificates to get the ministers approval to marry in a Catholic church. I kind of hoped that was the case so I could believe the marriage record over the death certificate.
I now have a few more names to start searching for.
Kind regards
Tom
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you should believe the marriage over the death Whether a baptismal cert was produced or otherwise is not the critical issue. Even in the 1970s in NSW the clergy did not require proof of name, particularly if they knew of you or of your family. In rural districts - sparse population, so likely the clergy knew of Patrick or of his family back in the 1880s and earlier.
JM
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I will look up my offline resources for that era and districts later, perhaps tomorrow. Electoral rolls, etc... I am not home at present.
JM
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I will look up my offline resources for that era and districts later, perhaps tomorrow. Electoral rolls, etc... I am not home at present.
JM
Thank you
-
:)
dots not quite joining up, but worthwhile following the trail ...
NSW ER 1870 QUEANBEYAN
Robert REEVES, residence, Molonglo
John BARRETT, leasehold, Gundaroo
None with surname GREEN
NSW ER 1878 QUEANBEYAN
None with surname REEVES
NSW ER 1870 BRAIDWOOD
Thomas REEVES, household, Braidwood
GREVILLES PO Directory 1875 BRAIDWOOD
Thomas REEVES, labourer
Edward GREEN, bootmaker
Patrick BARRETT, contractor (I may have posted this detail earlier)
Robert, son of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES, was born 20 April 1863 at Molonglo, was baptised in the Church of England’s Christ Church, Queanbeyan on 10 May 1863. The officiating clergy was A D Soares as per the church register.
Elizabeth, daughter of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES was born 10 September 1864 at Molonglo, and baptised in the C of E’s Christ Church, Queanbeyan on 9 October 1864 by Rev A D Soares as per church register.
JM
-
:)
dots not quite joining up, but worthwhile following the trail ...
NSW ER 1870 QUEANBEYAN
Robert REEVES, residence, Molonglo
John BARRETT, leasehold, Gundaroo
None with surname GREEN
NSW ER 1878 QUEANBEYAN
None with surname REEVES
NSW ER 1870 BRAIDWOOD
Thomas REEVES, household, Braidwood
GREVILLES PO Directory 1875 BRAIDWOOD
Thomas REEVES, labourer
Edward GREEN, bootmaker
Patrick BARRETT, contractor (I may have posted this detail earlier)
Robert, son of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES, was born 20 April 1863 at Molonglo, was baptised in the Church of England’s Christ Church, Queanbeyan on 10 May 1863. The officiating clergy was A D Soares as per the church register.
Elizabeth, daughter of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES was born 10 September 1864 at Molonglo, and baptised in the C of E’s Christ Church, Queanbeyan on 9 October 1864 by Rev A D Soares as per church register.
JM
Thank you JM
Its something to go on. Its proof there was a Reeves family at Molonglo in the period Patrick was born.
I saw a marriage record on NSW BMD index for a Robert Reeves and Susan Green in 1862 at Queanbeyan. Now doubt the family you found above with the birth of the children. Different first names to what I am looking for though. Maybe the Robert Reeves you found had a brother John and maybe Susan Green had a Sister Ann. The carpenter reference was very interesting.
Kind regards
Tom
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This is possibly another child for Robert and Susan REEVES, registered at Braidwood.
NSW 1867 #7316, registered Braidwood
George REEVES, parents: ROBERT, SUSAN
Judith
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From the additional information that you now have for the marriage certificate, 1886 -
".... John Reeves (occupation carpenter)…………..mother Ann Green...….."
You should also have parents names for Elizabeth GRIGGS...………. names of four parents.
Do you see "dec" after any of these four names...…...ie would the absence of such notation be enough to suggest that the parent is alive?.
Do you know if Elizabeth's parents are alive at 1886?
Are John REEVES and wife Ann REEVES alive at 1886?
-
:) NSW marriage Act 1899 is where it became usual to note which parents (if known) were already deceased.
:) Funeral directors handled lodging paperwork for death registrations in NSW ... Robert is noted as given name for Patrick's dad in the opening post, so the informant when giving info to the funeral director has likely been asked ... what was Patrick's dad's name, and answered 'Robert', suggesting to me that the informant was not acquainted with Patrick's parents at all.
:) I think the surname of Patrick's dad was REEVES or a variation on it ... only a hunch, but I think that Patrick giving a surname for his dad that is different from his own surname would NOT be an everyday occurance when organising a marriage.
:) Divorce came to NSW 1873. Perhaps Patrick's parents were not married when he was born, or perhaps dad died and mum remarried during Patrick's childhood ... either would give opportunity for different surnames.
:) Reeves and Barrett both have spelling variations, including mis-reading on their capital letters and the official records for all of the 19th century were all recorded in longhand.
:) NSW Archives has many indexes which can be reached here: https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
Fingers crossed, I will continue with my offline resources, knowing that the others are excellent RChatters. :)
JM
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John Reeves was not this one: Amended date is way out
"£150 DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF WIFE
SYDNEY, Tuesday. (1950)Mr. Justice Maxwell In the Divorce Court to-day ordered John Albert Reeves, grazier, of Wheeo,near Gunning, to pay £150 damages to a shearing contractor, whose wife he had stolen."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2772105?searchTerm=%22john%20reeves%22%20grazier%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=ACT
Did he get the keep the wife??
-
From the additional information that you now have for the marriage certificate, 1886 -
".... John Reeves (occupation carpenter)…………..mother Ann Green...….."
You should also have parents names for Elizabeth GRIGGS...………. names of four parents.
Do you see "dec" after any of these four names...…...ie would the absence of such notation be enough to suggest that the parent is alive?.
Do you know if Elizabeth's parents are alive at 1886?
Are John REEVES and wife Ann REEVES alive at 1886?
No deceased after any of them. I thought they may still be alive then I remembered Elizabeth's Father died 1884.
It must be as JM said the
NSW marriage Act 1899 is where it became usual to note which parents (if known) were already deceased.
Kind regards
Tom
-
:) NSW marriage Act 1899 is where it became usual to note which parents (if known) were already deceased.
:) Funeral directors handled lodging paperwork for death registrations in NSW ... Robert is noted as given name for Patrick's dad in the opening post, so the informant when giving info to the funeral director has likely been asked ... what was Patrick's dad's name, and answered 'Robert', suggesting to me that the informant was not acquainted with Patrick's parents at all.
:) I think the surname of Patrick's dad was REEVES or a variation on it ... only a hunch, but I think that Patrick giving a surname for his dad that is different from his own surname would NOT be an everyday occurance when organising a marriage.
:) Divorce came to NSW 1873. Perhaps Patrick's parents were not married when he was born, or perhaps dad died and mum remarried during Patrick's childhood ... either would give opportunity for different surnames.
:) Reeves and Barrett both have spelling variations, including mis-reading on their capital letters and the official records for all of the 19th century were all recorded in longhand.
:) NSW Archives has many indexes which can be reached here: https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
Fingers crossed, I will continue with my offline resources, knowing that the others are excellent RChatters. :)
JM
Thanks JM some good points there.
The informant on Patrick's death certificate was Patrick's youngest son. He may not have extensively known Patrick's past.
On a different line but when my Grandfather passed away my Aunt was the informant on his death certificate. When My Mother received a copy it had several errors.
Like you, I am believing the Marriage record details over the Death certificate.
I had considered Patrick may have been born out of wedlock and later on Ann married a Barrett.
Also possible Robert Barrett was his real father, maybe he died when Patrick was very young and his Mother remarried? On that scenario maybe Patrick considered John Reeves as the only dad he knew? and put him down as his father on the marriage record.
There is also a Elizabeth Barrett as a witness on Patrick's marriage record. Either a Sister, Sister in-law or an Aunt?
Its a mystery at the moment.
Good point on surnames that can be misread. While searching for the Barretts, a later generation, I found one record listed as Parrett.
Kind regards
Tom
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Speculation only!!
IF ??? (and it's a very big IF) it were to turn out that Robert, son of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES, b 20 April 1863 at Molonglo, is actually Patrick BARRETT, then perhaps the Elizabeth REEVES, with the same parents (Elizabeth, daughter of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES, b 10 September 1864) morphs into the Elizabeth BARRETT a witness at Patrick's marriage.
I could easily have missed them but I can't find any suitable deaths for Robert REEVES, his wife Susan nor for the 3 children registered to them. (Obviously Elizabeth may have married) ??? ???
Sorry, probably complete red herring!
Judith
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Yes, I have similar speculations ...
Thinking about where to look for actual signatures..
JM
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Speculation only!!
IF ??? (and it's a very big IF) it were to turn out that Robert, son of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES, b 20 April 1863 at Molonglo, is actually Patrick BARRETT, then perhaps the Elizabeth REEVES, with the same parents (Elizabeth, daughter of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES, b 10 September 1864) morphs into the Elizabeth BARRETT a witness at Patrick's marriage.
I could easily have missed them but I can't find any suitable deaths for Robert REEVES, his wife Susan nor for the 3 children registered to them. (Obviously Elizabeth may have married) ??? ???
Sorry, probably complete red herring!
Judith
Very interesting and probably shouldn't be dismissed yet. So far the only records found of Green and Reeves just happen to be at Molonglo or nearby Queanbeyan. The record of George Reeves born at Braidwood which you found the other day makes it two areas Patrick was at during that time period.
We know from Patrick's Marriage record the surnames of his parents are Green and Reeves. The only marriage record found, is for a Reeves and Green are Robert and Susan which just happens to be at Queanbeyan. Birth records for 2 children found by JM just happens to be at Molonglo.
Here is some more pondering of thought.
On Patrick's death certificate and the trove obituary for his wife Elizabeth both mention a daughter I never knew about. Susan Barrett. Noticed the first name.
Is it possible when Patrick died, his son the informant gave the name Robert Barrett. Thinking his Grandfather was a Barrett. He may have been right on the first name but not the surname?
I don't know much about this but lets speculate a little.
The 2 birth records JM found for Robert Reeves and Elizabeth Reeves both born at Molonglo were baptised Church of England.
Patrick later on marriage Elizabeth Griggs in a catholic church at Braidwood and he was later on buried in the catholic section at Gore hill. At some stage he has changed religion.
Would someone or a family that changed their religion change their last name too in the 1800's?
If they did change their name how could you prove it?
We know one thing death searches for Patrick's parents or even a marriage search so far have been unsuccessful. There could be a surname or 2 seriously misspelt or perhaps a name change.
Interesting speculation though. ;D
Kind regards
Tom
-
....
If they did change their name how could you prove it? .....
...
Thinking about where to look for actual signatures..
....
Look at any 'real deal' NSW BDM certificates you hold. Check if the handwriting on these is "all in the same hand" and if so, put aside, in the NOT helpful pile. If there's ANY with the signature of any relative of Patrick and/or any candidate for his wife, his inlaws, his parents ... or signature of Patrick himself, keep, scan, and backup scan copy. And then think about any documents at NSW Archives that may have his signature ... letters to Colonial Offices, etc and any documents at NSW BDM ... could he be a witness at a sibling's wedding or an informant at birth rego for any of his children ... etc ... Become a detective ... look for info which backs up the info on the 1886 marriage ... any aspect ... and then work at confirming/eliminating that from your quest...
Remember, that it is still quite legal in NSW to become known by another name. It has only become difficult since the Quintex scandal of the late 1980s early 1990s.
I dont have much knowledge of the admin aspects of Roman Catholic parish registers, but re C of E, there's every possibility the local clergy kept a "cheat sheet" on families ... including in 19th Century the ship of arrival, the native place, children and when/where baptised etc. You can get the gist of these via RChat's NSW Resources Board and the live links to Christ Church, Hexham, (Newcastle) NSW. Here: (family sheets across two foolscap pages).
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
I think it may be worthwhile to consider saving some pennies to order official transcript of birth registration of youngest NSW REEVES found (George, 1867, to Robert & Susan registered Braidwood #7316/1867 ) ... You see, the NSW BDM civil registrations include details of the OLDER siblings of the baby being registered... so the youngest should give name and age of each living older sibling, and gender of those who had succumbed prior to baby's birth. You would have info about Robert and Susan (when/where married, occupation, age, etc as recalled by the informant), and about their children ... so it may repeat info already known, or it may mention Patrick as older sibling, or it may help eliminate (so NOT mention Patrick), or it may remain confusing ... sorry ...
Fingers crossed, still thinking about how to confirm if there's been an informal surname change... :) not just a spelling variation...
JM
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If they did change their name how could you prove it? .....
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Thinking about where to look for actual signatures..
....
Look at any 'real deal' NSW BDM certificates you hold. Check if the handwriting on these is "all in the same hand" and if so, put aside, in the NOT helpful pile. If there's ANY with the signature of any relative of Patrick and/or any candidate for his wife, his inlaws, his parents ... or signature of Patrick himself, keep, scan, and backup scan copy. And then think about any documents at NSW Archives that may have his signature ... letters to Colonial Offices, etc and any documents at NSW BDM ... could he be a witness at a sibling's wedding or an informant at birth rego for any of his children ... etc ... Become a detective ... look for info which backs up the info on the 1886 marriage ... any aspect ... and then work at confirming/eliminating that from your quest...
Remember, that it is still quite legal in NSW to become known by another name. It has only become difficult since the Quintex scandal of the late 1980s early 1990s.
I dont have much knowledge of the admin aspects of Roman Catholic parish registers, but re C of E, there's every possibility the local clergy kept a "cheat sheet" on families ... including in 19th Century the ship of arrival, the native place, children and when/where baptised etc. You can get the gist of these via RChat's NSW Resources Board and the live links to Christ Church, Hexham, (Newcastle) NSW. Here: (family sheets across two foolscap pages).
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
I think it may be worthwhile to consider saving some pennies to order official transcript of birth registration of youngest NSW REEVES found (George, 1867, to Robert & Susan registered Braidwood #7316/1867 ) ... You see, the NSW BDM civil registrations include details of the OLDER siblings of the baby being registered... so the youngest should give name and age of each living older sibling, and gender of those who had succumbed prior to baby's birth. You would have info about Robert and Susan (when/where married, occupation, age, etc as recalled by the informant), and about their children ... so it may repeat info already known, or it may mention Patrick as older sibling, or it may help eliminate (so NOT mention Patrick), or it may remain confusing ... sorry ...
Fingers crossed, still thinking about how to confirm if there's been an informal surname change... :) not just a spelling variation...
JM
Thank JM as always good advice ;D
I will do that regarding the signatures. I don't have much on Patrick but I see you point in regards to other documents he may pop up on. That is angle that needs to be looked at.
You and Judith have giving me something to ponder on the Reeves family. That might be a step I need to take in the future regarding George's birth. Could provide some answers or none but its something to think about.
I am going to keep searching for Patrick's Mother death record. If I found that I think it may provide a few answers.
Hard to figure out when she died and what name. Which makes the range big. She could be under Reeves, Barrett or even Green? with the first name Ann, Mary or even Susan?
I have printed off a page of NSW Death index results on Barrett and have managed to rule out a few names from obits from trove and cemetery inscriptions.
I will go through the pages of C of E cheat sheets on the link provided over the weekend.
The hunt continues ;)
Kind regards
Tom
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one brick at a time :) Anywhere any family member signed ... regardless of the surname they used at that time. There's some extremely talented RChatters on the Handwriting board... Provided they are given enough sample to examine of course ... :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/handwriting-deciphering-recognition/
JM
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oops, wrong thread. ::) :-[