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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Real Lee History on Monday 16 July 18 13:09 BST (UK)
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Most of my branches are developing well and have born interesting fruit.
However, my father's bloodline remains elusive to progress (well - for me at the moment). I have had a previous post to help my ggf John 1857 ' brickwall ' and the advice from those helping was to obtain his first marriage certificate, which I was able to do ( I copied it to my original post). That gave his father's name - Edward but armed with this, I have still been unable to 'leap forward'.
Another thought was to develop John's children with a view that that may be easier and release some new information from another angle. But his children's records also seem very elusive (to me).
I currently have these details for the family:
Edward (father of John from the Marriage Certificate of John and Mary Hawthorn 1882 Salford)
John (previous post will show there are 2 possibilities for birth ?) 1857. I know he was born Lloughlyn, County Roscommon, Ireland from Census info.
First Marriage 1882 Mary Hawthorn(e) - Confirmed with actual marriage cert ordered/rec'd
Children:
Edward 1883 - Marriage possibilities two - Rose Ann Dodd 1903 (8d 181), Marguerite Simpson 1907 (8d 219) ?
James 1885 - Marriage possibly to Mary Agnes Derbyshire but I believe she was born in Germany and I can find no further information as to whether Derbyshire is Maiden or previous marriage name or Wedding citation to James.
John 1887 - Little found
Charles 1889 - Little found
William Henry 1891 - Little found
& Joseph 1893 (my grandfather)
I have been able to confirm all the above on GRO with Hawthorn as MMN.
1891 Census shows them all (apart from Joseph) BUT transcribed as Hawthorn(e) as surname NOT Duffy.
I have trawled through the transcribed Ordsall (I believe they resided), Salford Parish Church records to confirm Baptisms but all notes on these just give John & Mary as parents. http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Salford/
I am not coming from this from a specific person point of view. Could anyone find a bit more information or citation/record proof for any of these ancestors ? One piece may unlock my ability to shuffle forward with the others in family or indeed 'unlock' the Duffy Family Ireland to Salford era brickwall.
I utilise Family Search which does not yield anything for my searches on these individuals. I also use FreeBMD and GRO. I am not on Ancestry or similar due to cost.
Always amazed and grateful at what is found by the members :)
Thank you
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I copied it to my original post)
Can you give a link to it to save duplication.
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I copied it to my original post)
Can you give a link to it to save duplication.
Yes - No problem Jim. I attach the image of John and Mary's Wedding Certificate which I rec'd from records. :)
Moderator comment: full certificate image removed. Small snippets only are allowed for deciphering purposes
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Edward Duffy born 1883 married Marguerite Elsie Simpson in 1907 4Q Salford. Children Mary Ruth Duffy born 1909 & Edward Duffy born 1910. They lived at 38 Amos Street, Langworthy, Pendleton, Salford.
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Edward Duffy born 1883 married Marguerite Elsie Simpson in 1907 4Q Salford. Children Mary Ruth Duffy born 1909 & Edward Duffy born 1910. They lived at 38 Amos Street, Langworthy, Pendleton, Salford.
Thank you Ellenmai
As I mentioned I had either Rose Ann Dodd (1903) or Marguerite Simpson 1907 as possibilities. Can I ask how you feel Marguerite is the wife as opposed to Rose. Both married Edwards.
?
Appreciate the help.
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The Edward Duffy who married Rose Ann Dodd, it states his DOB is 3/7/1882 on the 1939 Register. That Edward Duffy's mother was Barker.
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The Edward Duffy who married Rose Ann Dodd, it states his DOB is 3/7/1882 on the 1939 Register. That Edward Duffy's mother was Barker.
Brilliant. Thank you. With other Edward's Mother Maiden Name - that discounts him.
I will key in Marguerite to Edward Duffy b1883.
A step forward :) - I am grateful thanks
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I think Jim was asking you to put a link to your original post regarding 'John 1857 Brickwall', so we can see what other members have found regarding the family.
Is there a possibility Charles died in WW1 as I have found a death and will post the information if you think it's your Charles.
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Quote from: Ellenmai on Today at 14:27
The Edward Duffy who married Rose Ann Dodd, it states his DOB is 3/7/1882 on the 1939 Register. That Edward Duffy's mother was Barker.
Brilliant. Thank you. With other Edward's Mother Maiden Name - that discounts him.
and just to confirm:
Also the marriage of Rose Ann Dodd and Edward Duffy is on the familysearch website and records Edward Duffy's father as Frederick Duffy
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The Edward Duffy who married Rose Ann Dodd, it states his DOB is 3/7/1882 on the 1939 Register. That Edward Duffy's mother was Barker.
Brilliant. Thank you. With other Edward's Mother Maiden Name - that discounts him.
I will key in Marguerite to Edward Duffy b1883.
A step forward :) - I am grateful thanks
Keying this information just now, Family Search came up with no possible duplicates for the marriage nor either children when keyed (almost accepting the records as new). My Duffy ancestors didn't wish to be found I believe :)
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I think Jim was asking you to put a link to your original post regarding 'John 1857 Brickwall', so we can see what other members have found regarding the family.
Is there a possibility Charles died in WW1 as I have found a death and will post the information if you think it's your Charles.
Ah - OK. I will post the copied link to the post chat.
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Quote from: Ellenmai on Today at 14:27
The Edward Duffy who married Rose Ann Dodd, it states his DOB is 3/7/1882 on the 1939 Register. That Edward Duffy's mother was Barker.
Brilliant. Thank you. With other Edward's Mother Maiden Name - that discounts him.
and just to confirm:
Also the marriage of Rose Ann Dodd and Edward Duffy is on the familysearch website and records Edward Duffy's father as Frederick Duffy
Thanks. Info adds to the elimination of Rose Ann Dodd as a candidate :). Also, if its on FS website i'm strongly believing it can't be my ancestors on the Duffy line as they are trying to hide !! :)
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This is the previous Duffy/Hawthorn Marriage thread link :
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793319.0
which includes the discussion on John Duffy and Mary Hawthorn (e) Marriage at the time. This was before I gained the earlier posted Marriage Certificate. :)
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Is there a possibility Charles died in WW1 as I have found a death and will post the information if you think it's your Charles.
Ellenmai
I have no information on Charles at all apart from 2 child census entries. Appears to have been entered as 'Charlie' rather than Charles on those. There is no family recollection from my father as he has little to no information on John (his grandfather) as it appears it just wasn't discussed.
John's fathers name of Edward was news to my dad and he enjoyed learning. He (my dad) is in his eighties now and was the youngest of 6 born to Joseph Duffy who also was the youngest of 6 from John/Mary Hawthorns marriage. Joseph was 6 years after Charles.
Back to Charles, he could have been a casualty of WW1 but I have nothing to go on apart from birth year.
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Mary Agnes Derbyshire in 1901 census:
Durham Street Prestwich
Head: Thomas Derbyshire aged 47 born Eccles Lancs
Wife: Agnes aged 33 born Germany (British Subject)
Dau: Catherine aged 1 born Manchester Lancs
Dau: Alice aged 0 born Manchester Lancs
Marriage for the couple:
Marriages Sep 1896
Derbyshire Thomas Chorlton 8c 1527
Polus Agnes Chorlton 8c 1527
Possible death for Thomas Derbyshire:
Deaths Sep 1906
Derbyshire Thomas 52 Prestwich 8d 282
Births registrations for Derbyshire children shown living with James Duffy and wife Mary Agnes:
DERBYSHIRE, CATHERINE mothers maiden name POLUS
GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 903
DERBYSHIRE, ALICE mothers maiden name GOLUS
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 421
DERBYSHIRE, WILFRED mothers maiden name POLUS
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 436
DERBYSHIRE, MARY AGNES mothers maiden name POLUS
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 290
Marriage:
Sep 1910
Derbyshire Agnes Prestwich 8d 714
Duffy James Prestwich 8d 714
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Am away from the board for about an hour or so but will reply to any posts that are added as soon as I return.
Thanks for adding thoughts / comments or updates - they really do help.
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You say John Duffy was born Lloughlyn (I can't find a Lloughlyn so maybe Loughglinn)
There is this birth reg (possible brother for John Duffy):
24th May 1866 Moyne Loughglinn Charles son of Edward Duffy Land Holder of Moyne and Catherine (nee Jordan)
can be viewed here:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03525/2296962.pdf
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Mary Agnes Derbyshire in 1901 census:
Durham Street Prestwich
Head: Thomas Derbyshire aged 47 born Eccles Lancs
Wife: Agnes aged 33 born Germany (British Subject)
Dau: Catherine aged 1 born Manchester Lancs
Dau: Alice aged 0 born Manchester Lancs
Marriage for the couple:
Marriages Sep 1896
Derbyshire Thomas Chorlton 8c 1527
Polus Agnes Chorlton 8c 1527
Possible death for Thomas Derbyshire:
Deaths Sep 1906
Derbyshire Thomas 52 Prestwich 8d 282
Births registrations for Derbyshire children shown living with James Duffy and wife Mary Agnes:
DERBYSHIRE, CATHERINE mothers maiden name POLUS
GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 903
DERBYSHIRE, ALICE mothers maiden name GOLUS
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 421
DERBYSHIRE, WILFRED mothers maiden name POLUS
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 436
DERBYSHIRE, MARY AGNES mothers maiden name POLUS
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 290
Marriage:
Sep 1910
Derbyshire Agnes Prestwich 8d 714
Duffy James Prestwich 8d 714
Thank you :)
It really helps to build these childrens data, with a view to Johns (their Dad) and upwards. This certainly matches the Mary Derbyshire I have connected with James as her German roots can't be too common.
I will start placing the details of marriage plus children and James details in my tree and hopefully it will unlock a few more jigsaw pieces.
Much appreciated Candrjm
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You say John Duffy was born Lloughlyn (I can't find a Lloughlyn so maybe Loughglinn)
There is this birth reg (possible brother for John Duffy):
24th May 1866 Moyne Loughglinn Charles son of Edward Duffy Land Holder of Moyne and Catherine (nee Jordan)
can be viewed here:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03525/2296962.pdf
I like this. As I have said John's father was Edward (re marriage certificate to Mary). Searching a little while ago, I was 80% certain John's mother (Edwards wife) was Catherine - I can't remember why - it may have said Catherine on the most likely Baptismal record image.
This information could well be a brother and therefore gives me a Catherine with a maiden name of Jordan. I will be looking at this closely as it may allow me to unlock other siblings for John.
I really do appreciate this :)
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Moyne townland in Loughglinn E.D.-
https://www.townlands.ie/roscommon/frenchpark/tibohine/loughglinn/moyne/
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Possible death for Edward Duffy
14th May 1903 Edward Duffy of Moyne widower aged 82 Small Farmer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05659/4593216.pdf
Possible death for Catherine Duffy:
25th dec 1891 Catherine Duffy of Moyne married aged 65 Farmers Wife
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05870/4664233.pdf
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Moyne townland in Loughglinn E.D.-
https://www.townlands.ie/roscommon/frenchpark/tibohine/loughglinn/moyne/
Not come across 'Moyne' in the little I had at the start - (information taken from 2 x census). It fits with Loughglinn and the census place of birth 'completed as heard ' OR Johns idea on spelling.
Thank you as this pieces well with what Candrjm is finding and highlighting
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Possible death for Edward Duffy
14th May 1903 Edward Duffy of Moyne widower aged 82 Small Farmer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05659/4593216.pdf
Possible death for Catherine Duffy:
25th dec 1891 Catherine Duffy of Moyne married aged 65 Farmers Wife
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05870/4664233.pdf
I never thought / but hoped that Duffy branch could be taken forward. I have no access to Irish Ancestry so this information is invaluable.
I estimated (by using Johns DoB) and dad/mum early 20's that Edward was 1834 but the information provided on death could mean he was born 1821 and Catherine (Jordan) 1826. With many children and first child shortly after marriage traits, this means John is not their oldest and probably a fair way down the Edward and Catherine list of offspring. Any siblings of John would greatly interest me as would - of course - and indication of Edwards father and line (being my father's direct ancestors).
This is moving - thank you
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Possible death for Edward Duffy
14th May 1903 Edward Duffy of Moyne widower aged 82 Small Farmer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05659/4593216.pdf
Possible death for Catherine Duffy:
25th dec 1891 Catherine Duffy of Moyne married aged 65 Farmers Wife
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05870/4664233.pdf
I never thought / but hoped that Duffy branch could be taken forward. I have no access to Irish Ancestry so this information is invaluable.
I estimated (by using Johns DoB) and dad/mum early 20's that Edward was 1834 but the information provided on death could mean he was born 1821 and Catherine (Jordan) 1826. With many children and first child shortly after marriage traits, this means John is not their oldest and probably a fair way down the Edward and Catherine list of offspring. Any siblings of John would greatly interest me as would - of course - and indication of Edwards father and line (being my father's direct ancestors).
This is moving - thank you
Added upon viewing the Death Certificate
Informant is a Mary Mc ...? cited as daughter present at death.
And on Catherines Death Cert
Informant is an Edward Duffy (son) present at death.
Not Edward husband so wonder where he was as Catherine died first - but again, usual form for a childs eldest son to take the name of father so an Edward (son) would fit with Edward and Catherine I believe (?)
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1901 census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Roscommon/Loughglynn/Moyne/1662795/
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1901 census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Roscommon/Loughglynn/Moyne/1662795/
Thank you.
Initial reactions is to wonder why the Household just has Edward (Widow) and Mary Daughter in Law, (Married) in it.? No husband or Mary Children ? Perhaps she was just visiting her husbands elderly father at the time, which could seem plausible.
Link will be useful as I gain information on Edward & Catherine's children and a possible marriage linking a Mary to a Son. :) Valuable info.
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Gaining some great potential information from this thread :)
I still feel the need to confirm Edward with Catherine by linking them to John and the John records I have.
A look at Family Search last night suggests many duplicate entries for an Edward Duffy and Catherine (various spellings) - wife. I will try to trawl the individual duplicated records today ( i have located 12 at the moment) and would suggest these are all FS added baptism records for an Edward and Catherine.
Now if one of those was John and the other sibling dates fitted we may have a family to work on.
If anyone can find John in an Irish Census with siblings and parents Edward that would be a find ! :)
Looking at John & Mary's Wedding Certificate again - his father Edward's profession is Farmer which fits to all the information suggested on this thread - I remain excitedly positive :)
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Tibohine RC parish, 19 February 1852, the marriage of Edward Duffy and Catherine Jordan, witnessed by Luke Duffy and ? Jordan (right page, 12th entry down):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633965#page/267/mode/1up
Loughglynn RC parish, 27 February 1853, what looks like first child / son Patrick baptised for Edward Duffy and Catherine Jordan, sponsors Joanne and Elizabeth Jordan (left page, 10th entry down):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/15/mode/1up
Lots more children followed.
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... Lots more children followed.
Loughglynn RC parish, Martin Duffy baptised 2 November 1854 (left page, 5th entry up from bottom):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/21/mode/1up
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... Lots more children followed.
Trying not to duplicate births or baptisms that have already been posted on this and your other topic - I think you already have John Duffy 1856, Johanna Duffy 1860 and Charles Duffy 1866 - here is Catherine Duffy baptised in Loughglynn RC parish on 15 June 1862 (right page, 2nd entry down):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/55/mode/1up
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... Lots more children followed.
Edward Duffy born on 10 February 1864:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03623/2337345.pdf
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... Lots more children followed.
Twins Honor and Ellen Duffy born on 21 October 1868:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03416/2252842.pdf
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... Lots more children followed.
Martin Duffy born on 10 September 1873:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03180/2166250.pdf
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Tibohine RC parish, 19 February 1852, the marriage of Edward Duffy and Catherine Jordan, witnessed by Luke Duffy and ? Jordan (right page, 12th entry down):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633965#page/267/mode/1up
Loughglynn RC parish, 27 February 1853, what looks like first child / son Patrick baptised for Edward Duffy and Catherine Jordan, sponsors Joanne and Elizabeth Jordan (left page, 10th entry down):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/15/mode/1up
Lots more children followed.
Thank you gaffy :). I was just 'trawling' through the book images for Loughglynn Parish Church for Edwards Marriage and possible birth 1821.
This is a great find and the children listed mirror my further information gained through the duplicate FS entries which I have listed so the book entries add the parish documents to FS records.
I have :
Patritium (Patrick) 1853
Martinum (Martin) 1854
Joannem (John) 1856
Mariam 1858
Johannam (Jane) 1860
Catharinam (Catherine) 1862
Charles 1866
Ellen 1868
Martin 1873
I am unsure about entry for 'Honara' 1868 as maybe Ellen duplicated ?
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Wedding entry posted by gaffy fits to the known children birth years ie Marriage 1852 first child 1853
Witness' suggested Luke or Lucas Duffy perhaps and Jordan witness James or Fraser ?
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... I am unsure about entry for 'Honara' 1868 as maybe Ellen duplicated ?
They were twins, see civil record at my reply #31.
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Summary of Finds to Date
Source Facts Previously Held
John Duffy b 1857 Loughlynn, County Roscommon
Marriage Mary Hawthorn 1882 - Certificate obtained - Johns Father named as Edward, Farmer.
From here and my post yesterday we have:
Edward Duffy & Catherine Jordan
m. 1852 in Tibohine Parish, Roscommon, Co Mayo
Children 9 (previously listed in this post) b1853 - 1873 - Baptism records Tibohine Parish
including a Joannem (John) 1856 which could be my ggf.
Edward Death - 1903 Moyne, Roscommon
Catherine Death - 1891 Moyne, Roscommon
Edward (Widow) showing 1901 Census Loughlynn/Moyne/Rosommon with Mary (daughter in law)
I believe we have captured the family of Edward and Catherine in the Roscommon area but can I ask whether the consensous is that this is my ggf John family as close as we can prove? ie Do I add all this to family tree and continue positively OR is there a further piece of information or investigation before I confirm this is my ancestors?
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... Witness' suggested Luke or Lucas Duffy perhaps and Jordan witness James or Fraser ?
Lucas = latin for Luke. I don't think the other witness was called Fraser, that would be highly unusual for the context. It doesn't look like Jacobus, it's possibly a poorly written Joan[n]es for John, but I'm not sure. I'm also unsure if the 3/3 degree dispensation for consanguinity belongs to their entry or the one below.
Edited to add: On reflection, if the marriage entry follows the pattern of others on the same and neighbouring pages (dispensation details at the end of an entry) and given the 'boxing' marks used, I'm leaning towards it applying to Edward and Catherine, meaning they were 2nd cousins.
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... Witness' suggested Luke or Lucas Duffy perhaps and Jordan witness James or Fraser ?
Lucas = latin for Luke. I don't think the other witness was called Fraser, that would be highly unusual for the context. It doesn't look like Jacobus, it's possibly a poorly written Joan[n]es for John, but I'm not sure. I'm also unsure if the 3/3 degree dispensation for consanguinity belongs to their entry or the one below.
Edited to add: On reflection, if the marriage entry follows the pattern of others on the same and neighbouring pages (dispensation details at the end of an entry) and given the 'boxing' marks used, I'm leaning towards it applying to Edward and Catherine, meaning they were 2nd cousins.
So Great Grandparent will be the same if 2nd cousins. A point to remember and may give two different directions to get to the same point - which could help if we struggle with Edwards parents details and so on.
Again, good spot and discussion :)