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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: sirsimon on Monday 16 July 18 18:24 BST (UK)
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Hello everyone,
Yesterday I was researching the Border Reiver clans, whom were families whom lived in the north of Cumberland near the Scottish border. I have looked on a roll of surnames that were members of the border reiver clans.
Despite my family originating from Stapleton and living within the Bewcastle and Nichol Forest area, the Steel/Steal/Steele family are not listed.
I find this a bit odd, as the family intermarried into other border clans, including Carruthers, Turnbull and Routledge, whom are listed in the roll.
What reasons could there be for their exclusion? They might not have been a border clan, but that is peculiar considering they were born, married and died with other listed members.
any thoughts would be appreciated.
my thanks
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I've jotted down a few notes for you and I should think others will come along and have other suggestions.
I've found mention of a 1587 document that lists all surnames/clans that were classed as Reivers and the surname Steel/Steal/Steele is not on the list. What could have happened is your ancestor came along afterwards and married into one of the original Reiver families and came under that clan's protection.
In 1587 the Parliament of Scotland passed a statute: "For the quieting and keping in obiedince of the disorderit subjectis inhabitantis of the borders hielands and Ilis."[27] Attached to the statute was a Roll of surnames from both the Borders and Highlands. The Borders portion listed 17 'clannis' with a Chief and their associated Marches:
found on this website: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers
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Further: Many smaller families sought protection from the large clans and on the below website you'll see that your surname is a Sept of Clan Gordon - I didn't see mention of the Gordon surname on the Reivers List..
http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/septs.htm
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Good read, "The Steel Bonnets!" by George MacDonald Fraser!
Skoosh.
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One of my family lines (Millican) comes from the same area, Stapleton, Kirkandrews an Esk area, definite Graham country, but they don’t appear on the Reivers list of names either. They married into known reviving families as well. I can only assume that they either didn’t partake in reviving in a big way, or they were a family wiley enough not to get caught by the Wardens of the Marches!
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Can't see them on here either http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border%20Families/BORDER%20SURNAMES%20%202.htm and it states
"Names will be added only when there is documentary evidence that a family was established in the Borders during the 16th century being the time when reiving was most intense. Please do not ask for your family name to the added unless you can conform to this criteria."
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Can't see them on here either http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border%20Families/BORDER%20SURNAMES%20%202.htm and it states
The list isn’t complete. There is a “millenium subway” (I know, sounds strange) in Carlisle and the pavement has the known Reivers names carved into the pavement and there are names in the subway that don’t appear on the list, examples such as Blackadder, Turner...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=millennium+subway+carlisle&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=msivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjM3_LZ96XcAhXEDsAKHQEWBVcQ_AUIEygD&biw=768&bih=899#imgrc=wrnQvCEwyw75OM:
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What a lovely 'monument' ...and I know it is not complete which is why I added the "Names will be added" bit, as on their website it states they don't add unless accompanied by documentation proof
"Names will be added only when there is documentary evidence that a family was established in the Borders during the 16th century being the time when reiving was most intense. Please do not ask for your family name to the added unless you can conform to this criteria."
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What a lovely 'monument' ..
The large stone is the cursing stone with a 16th C curse engraved on it against highway men, robbers etc. Some think it should be removed and destroyed as it has brought disaster to the area since installation - 2 devastating floods, foot and mouth disease to name a few!!
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Really :o I think it is very beautiful
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The curse on Borderers was issued by the Archbishop of Glasgow who obviously thought they deserved it! ;D
Skoosh.
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It was before my time in the USA but Richard Nixon, the US President who had a bad ending as President would never have got my vote.
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The Reivers List - does the name Crichton/Creighton/Crayton appear?
My Creighton brickwall was born in Donegal and moved to Gosforth circa 1800. But i have a theory that they moved from the border regions to Ireland and then came back to Gosforth.
Cheers
Jack Gee
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There is a “millenium subway” (I know, sounds strange) in Carlisle and the pavement has the known Reivers names carved into the pavement and there are names in the subway that don’t appear on the list, examples such as Blackadder, Turner...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=millennium+subway+carlisle&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=msivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjM3_LZ96XcAhXEDsAKHQEWBVcQ_AUIEygD&biw=768&bih=899#imgrc=wrnQvCEwyw75OM:
I've walked through that subway a few times to visit the Museum and Art Gallery. Some of my names are there but no proof that they were Borderers in the 16th century :-\
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James VI had a clear-oot of troublesome Borderers to Ireland where they've been causing trouble ever since!
Gavin Dunbar's Curse, www.ulsterancestry.com/ShowFreePage.php?id=482
Skoosh.
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My Paternal grandmother was a Douglas! When I asked my Dad about them, he just said "they were a load of old horse thieves from up around the Borders" - I've only got them back to Roxborogh ( sp??), never been able to separate the many Roberts and Archibalds , and don't think I'll ever get any further with them! ;D ;D ;D
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Can't see them on here either http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border%20Families/BORDER%20SURNAMES%20%202.htm and it states
"Names will be added only when there is documentary evidence that a family was established in the Borders during the 16th century being the time when reiving was most intense. Please do not ask for your family name to the added unless you can conform to this criteria."
The problem is that when you click on the surnames, most of them give no evidence that they were actual reivers, just that they lived in the area
Actual 'reivers' were only mentioned a couple of times in original documents (Elizabethan) and those only mention a very small amount of surnames. Folk tales and ballads have exaggerated the story over the centuries but they are not based on hard facts
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Can't see them on here either http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border%20Families/BORDER%20SURNAMES%20%202.htm and it states
"Names will be added only when there is documentary evidence that a family was established in the Borders during the 16th century being the time when reiving was most intense. Please do not ask for your family name to the added unless you can conform to this criteria."
The problem is that when you click on the surnames, most of them give no evidence that they were actual reivers, just that they lived in the area
Actual 'reivers' were only mentioned a couple of times in original documents (Elizabethan) and those only mention a very small amount of surnames. Folk tales and ballads have exaggerated the story over the centuries but they are not based on hard facts
Yes that was my impression and the reality at that time for any proof is very difficult to find for anyone/anywhere, so unless someone was imprisoned and there are some Manorial records that identify the person by name, crime, sentence etc
The arty side of me loves the art insulation and I love folklore which is all part of that, but ( for me) it doesn't sit well with FH research
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thank you everyone for helping trying to clarify the confusion.
If the Steeles were not border reivers, then I wonder where they came from, some branches moved to Durham, Yorkshire and Lancashire, but they all came from Northern Cumberland.
Is it possible that the Steeles were a Scottish Clan? It seems unlikely, but they must have come from somewhere
thanks
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I don't know that there's an actual clan, but I do have some Steels who appear in my Maternal Douglas family line in Ayrshire, so it's possible that there are more Steels in Ayrshire! Just a thought!
Added - just found this - hope it's helpful for you!
http://www.irishsurnames.com/cgi-bin/gallery.pl?name=steele&capname=Steele&letter=s
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It was before my time in the USA but Richard Nixon, the US President who had a bad ending as President would never have got my vote.
Aye and you know what happened to him 😉. I have plenty of Reiver blood in my vains just ask my poor husband 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😈
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thank you everyone for helping trying to clarify the confusion.
If the Steeles were not border reivers, then I wonder where they came from, some branches moved to Durham, Yorkshire and Lancashire, but they all came from Northern Cumberland.
Is it possible that the Steeles were a Scottish Clan? It seems unlikely, but they must have come from somewhere
thanks
Hi l Know of Steeles living in kilbocho peebleshire Scotland, hope that helps you.
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George MacDonald Fraser "The Steel Bonnets!" is the very book for the Border Reivers, try Amazon! ;D
Skoosh.
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George MacDonald Fraser "The Steel Bonnets!" is the very book for the Border Reivers, try Amazon! ;D
Skoosh.
Thanks, Skoosh. I've added it to my wishlist. it might give me some helpful background to a branch of my tree that I've come to a dead halt with.
I've been looking at my 6x great grandfather Thomas Dodd, trying to figure out his birth and birthplace. He would have been born about 1690. He married and had his children in Askham, near Penrith but I can get no further back than that.
A while ago, I became aware that the surname DODD(S) was one of the Reivers family names, centred around Bellingham near Hexham. There's no sign of Thomas being baptised in the Askham area. I did attempt to find out if there was any link - right area of the country, though Penrith and Hexham are quite a few miles apart.
His daughter - my 3x gg - had a child by a William TODD in Askham in 1734, and I believe TODD is another reiver surname.
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'The Steel Bonnets ' is also available to borrow on Internet archive.org You will need to register but it's free. Once you have registered, click on the text sign and type the title in the search box.
Many good genealogy books on this site.
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From the Internet
The name "Steele" is English and Scottish: from the Middle English term stele (‘steel’), hence a nickname for someone considered as hard and durable as steel, or occupational name for a foundry worker. The Coat of Arms is English.
Possibly a Sept (Associated with a Clan) . But not a Clan.
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thank you everyone for the replies.
I think I might have figured it out.
I took an ancestry dna test and it came back, after some updates of the database that I am 35% scottish.
Now I have checked all my ancestral lineages and none of them originate from Scotland, mostly from the Midlands and Cornwall.
The fact that the name Steele does not appear in the Border Clans list is because they weren't border clans.
I think the Steele family originally came from Dumfriesshire as a sept family of Clan Gordon and moved south over the border, possible to escape war or persecution.
Only thing that puzzles me is that I have read two books on scottish clans and none of them list Steel as a sept of Clan Gordon, but all the datebases and online websites do
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Black, in his "Surnames!" has Steel, Steele & Steil in Perthshire, Ayrshire, Midlothian Berwickshire, Dumfriesshire, Lanarkshire & Argyll. One Kempy Steill was hung for theft in 1524. William Steel from Biggar helped organise anti-slavery railroad helping fugitives escape to Canada!
Skoosh.
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My great-grandmother was a Little from Stirlingshire and I suspect we may be from Reiver stock. I recently have discovered what Reivers actually were and the curse laid upon them by *that man*.
As my great-grandmother's and grandmother's family name was mentioned in that curse I have taken it very personally and am horrified that such a thing ever occurred. It's witchcraft of the highest order and I am very angry about it and feel very personally attacked by it!
If I ever meet a Dunbar I will not be held responsible for my actions (I probably would be, though, sadly).
We anybody else absolutely horrified by that curse? It's the foulest thing I have ever read and to know it was (most likely) aimed at my family just fills me with fury! I don't care what people did, they didn't deserve that tirade of filth aimed at them and from all the pulpits in the land, no less!
Off to quietly fume and plot revenge on behalf of the Reiving families! Down with the Dunbars (boo, hiss!!) >:( >:( >:(
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Probably wise not to take it to heart grrankin. ;D
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Archbishop Dunbar also burned alive two Franciscan friars outside Glasgow Cathedral, one was a Jerome Russell if memory serves, he later tried to pin the blame the Dominicans for organising their trial. The abuse of power & the burnings of reformers Patrick Hamilton the Abbot of Fearn & George Wishart brought about the Reformation.
Having Dunbar's curse on Borderers carved on a boulder in Carlisle for the tourists wasn't a very sensible idea, I blame it for Brexit myself! ;D
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Anent the monition cursing of Archbishop Dunbar, here is a prayer to counter his Grace's somewhat exuberant bell, book & candle curse on Borderers in general and doubtless folk called Little even,
https://www.hiskingdomprophesy.com/monition-cursing/
Good luck with that grrankin!
Yours,
Skoosh.
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I think Sallyyorks and Iluleah back in 2018 seem to consign the Reivers to myth and legend. Nothing could be further from the truth. They were a very real and constant threat on both sides of the borders and as for evidence of their depredations, there is masses of it. So great was the threat that a whole new codex of law "Border Law" had to be drawn up to try and bring some sort of normality to the region.
Regarding the curse of Bishop Dunbar, do I feel cursed? As a Forster of reiver ancestry; not in the slightest.
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My ancestors were reivers, Armstrongs and Johnstones. I have read the Steel Bonnets, great book. Not all the names were recorded, maybe it's because they didn't participate in raids regardless of whether they married into clans or not.