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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: sharonsteinberg47 on Wednesday 18 July 18 01:41 BST (UK)
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hello, I have a brick wall with my 3x great grandmother Catherine McArthur who married my 3x Great grandfather, James Makin, in Carcoar it says Bowenfels because the minister was from Bowenfels I suspect. they married in 1844, he was dead by 1849 at Grubenbong nr Carcoar.
when my GG granmother their daughter, Mary, married christopher Donnelly in Goulburn, in 1864 it stated in the Goulburn Newspaper that her mother was Mrs bolston wife of William Bolston. all I could find was a police gazette request for William Bolston to be found for desertion of his wife.
When Catherines other daughter, Elizabeth, Married John Moore, 1865, in she stated her mothers last name was West. a Catherine west died in the Goulburn Gaol in 1866, she was dying when she was arrested and it states her name was Wilkinson alias West.
I can find nothing about a Catherine McArthur arriving on a boat prior to 1844 except for one married to Donald McArthur...I think they went to SA.
I can find nothing for a william bolston except his incarceration in the Liverpool Asylum. where did she come from and how did she get here to Australia?
any help at all would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance.
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Hi there,
I can see the online index has Mary's marriage as Mary MAKIN and Christopher DONELLY, registered Goulburn district, in 1864 #2052.
What surname for Elizabeth when she married in 1865? Could it be MACCUM or MCCUM, and registered in the Yass district in 1865 #3506?
Do you have copy of, or official transcription of these two registrations? I am wondering if there's elusive blanks on those documents... Perhaps may I suggest you have a read through the following thread (which is becoming quite long now) re how to overcome those blanks, as it should help with determining what first hand information the girls gave about their parents and themselves to the clergy on marrying.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
I have a deal of paperwork for Carcoar and for Bowenfels for the penal and colonial eras, if you need lookups.
JM
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Thank you JM, I have a copy of Mary Makins marriage (bigamous) to Martin Adam wood and the minister was John Gibson, Presbyterian there is nothing else on it the marriage took place at Humewood nr Yass in September 1870. My GG grandfather went to Canberra and bigamously married Mary McDonald...although he was a Catholic so I expect he did not see either marriage as bigamous....or even real marriages.
Mary Makin is also a brick wall because her death is a complete mystery to me she must have died in Burrowa but I cannot find it. many thanks for your trouble. sharon
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Yes Elizabeth Makin had her name on her marriage cert as Maccum. elizabeth and her husband John Moore were also witnesses to Mary Donnellys marriage to Martin Wood in 1870.
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Mary and Elizabeth Makin had an older sister named Catherine Makin who married James Dallas at the Presbyterian church Manse by William Ross. this was in March 1867.
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So, about the 1864 and 1865 marriages, what information is on the registrations for those marriages ...
JM
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I am unable to find them just at the moment because I have a new computer....so it would require and extensive search. However, from what I can Remember the fathers name was unreadable, although an M was discernable. and they were married by the reverend W. Sowerby in October 1864
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According to a descendant of Elizabeth Makin he has the certificate of Marriage to John Moore and she stated her mothers name was Catherine West.
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Instead of spending all your funds on real deal NSW BDM certificates, there's an option that is well recognised in family history groups and even used by commercial websites... NSW BDM has appointed official transcribers. All three are excellent.
Here's the NSW BDM webpage info about Transcription Agents:
Scroll down :)
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
Here's RChat's NSW Resources Board including thread on Transcription Agents...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
and
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
cheaper and comes as pdf :) already transcribed by people who have long term experience in reading the clergy's scribble.
JM
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Thank you so much.
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The Goulburn newspaper, 1864...…..can you please identify the newspaper and the date. I am not seeing a notice.
"..James Makin...…..was dead by 1849 at Grubenbong nr Carcoar."
What is your source for this....the year and the location?
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Herald Chronicle november 1864. I got his probate papers...mostly gossip and a fight about money between Catherine McArthur and his son from his 1st marriage who wanted a suit of clothes to go to Sydney. sharon
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sorry that was 2nd of November 1864
sharon
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I think the locality is likely to be Grubbenbun which would put it in the civil parish of Waugoola, in the County of Bathurst, Land District of Cowra, Pastures Protection district of Carcoar, and Shire of Waugoola as per NSW Geographical Names Board info. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/agency/2674
JM
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/10376918
2 Nov 1864 Goulburn Herald & Chronicle
MARRIED
the 26th October, by the Rev W Sowerby, Christopher DONNELLY to Mary, third daughter of Mrs BOLSTON.
ADD, that cutting does not give Mrs Bolston's husband as William BOLSTON, nor mentions if he was living with Mrs Bolston.. (noticing it does not say Mrs William Bolston or similar).
JM
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Yes, that is thenotice I have in my tree.
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Yes, that is thenotice I have in my tree.
I have just added to my post. JM
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I assumed that the police gazette notice for his desertion was him...and they named him william bolston. sharon
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I cannot find any other william Bolston at all except for the one in Liverpool Asylum. However there is a carcoar marriage for a "caroline" Makin to a chap called Waithing...but there is not anything anywhere for him either. I thought perhaps Caroline was probably Catherine..this was an 1850 marriage so the right time...I think Catherine McArthur had a very fractured life. sharon
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Searching for the surname BOLSTON in NSW bdm indexes ... so few as to suggest a mis-transcription or three.
I will get to my offline resources shortly ...
JM
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BOLSTON ... only find these five chaps in NSW in the 1840s ...
Charles arrived 1841 per Strathfieldsaye
John arrived 1840 per Andromache
John arrived 1850 per Jane
John arrived 1849 per Randolph, Convict Exile Ticket of leave on arrival
Joseph arrived 1840 per Eden (Ticket of leave in 1851)
JM
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That does not explain the daughter Elizabeth stating her mothers name as Catherine West in 1867 though. so what happened between 1862 when he deserted her and 1867 when she was calling herself catherine west? there is also the William Bolston in Liverpool. sharon
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One step at a time ... :) how have you proven who the three sisters are? ... Mary has two older sisters as per the notice of 2 November 1864 ... basically I am asking about what document gives you confirmation of who were Mary's older sisters.. and were there any other brothers/sisters mentioned as well ...
JM
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Divorce did not come to NSW until 1873 ... so there's many domestic relationships that were common law marriages ...
ADD bigamy is a civil law crime, you need proof of second marriage before police action can take place. This was also the requirement back in the 1800s in NSW ... police required proof before proceeding with any request of police magistrate for authority to arrest. Co-habitation was not proof.
JM
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Right I looked at the Liverpool entry and I think the chaps name is Colston...it is just labeled by Ancestry as Bolston.
first, elizabeth Makin and John Moore were witnesses to the marriage of mary makin and Martin Wood. Catherine Makin was a witness to Marys first marriage to Christopher Donnelly. I have a DNA match with someone who descends from thomas Makin who emigrated to Victoria and he is the brother of James Makin. I am not in any doubt that I have the correct family I just cannot find where Catherine McArthur comes from...not arriving nor being here. sharon
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so where did they marry? I do not think they did and I believe that is why there are no further notices in the Gazette...I think they found out she was just cohabiting with her...usually they put the notice in more than once...or a notice of his arrest is in the gazette...but that is the only notice.
Did Catherine change her name several times?
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James Arrived with his wife hannah Scott from Scotland on ship with sickness, she died in Quarantine. He needed a baby sitter for his 3 children so married Catherine McArthur she had 3 daughters to him and he died.
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Umm... it is often important to separate the known facts from some speculations of course, and I encourage you to consider obtaining the official transcriptions of those two marriages from 1864 and 1865 to then be able to seek out the original parish registers which will have all the details that the brides provided about their own parents and themselves ... the info includes Mother's maiden name and can often include any other names she had become known by .. this then helps you research back a generation on those parents ...
Re James arriving with wife who dies in Quarrantine... he and that wife had 3 children, then he marries Catherine and has 3 more children before he died in 1849. What ship did he arrive on, where and when... what info did he give when marrying Catherine ... was he noted as a widower, what was her status?
JM
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I shall get the certificates...thank you for all your help. There is no fathers name or mothers name on Catherine Makins marriage to James Dallas. the Names on the marriage of my gg grandmother to Christopher Donnelly were illegible....I shall get elizabeths marriage and see what that says...but frankly I do not see how it will help me find out what happened to Catherine McArthur nor where she came from...as Elizabeth apparently claimed her mothers name was West when she married. This is a fractured family so in my experience they are difficult to research. People tended to change their names at the drop of a hat...this would be a kdifferent sear ch ifJames Makin had lived longer...but Catherine was left with 3 children to care for and obviouslyy took whatever man she could for however long he would stay. oce again thank you for your help. cheers,sharon
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I am not promising that it will find info re Catherine, but I do know that the info on those m.c.s is often just enough to help towards finding further info on the parents of the bride or the groom. Tiny clues often sort out big pictures...
I agree fractured families are tough to sort. My earliest migrant ancestors arrived in NSW 1790s, many fractures later, :) still in NSW :) most of the 1800s they were central west and around Lachlan and further west ... even right out to Darling River etc :)
JM
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Re the marriage to James DALLAS ... so there's elusive blanks there too ... when and where married, what denomination ...
JM
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Also, may I note that when Mary married in 1870, the index shows her surname as DONELLY, so she has likely been asked and has given info to confirm she was a widow. #3802.
JM
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Yes she said she was a widow but she was not a widow and I am sure Christopher also said he was a widower, but of course he was not a widower. Certificates are only as true as the people giving the information are truthful.
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William Ross married them in Goulburn at the Presbyterian church. she was born in Carcoar and dallas was born in Tasmania...his father was a convict.
as for the Donelly Donnelly name I do not think that is significant. cheers, sharon
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a mary McDonald was a witness to the marriage of james Dallas and Catherine Makin which took me back to the 1839 arrival of Donald and Catherine McArthur. but truly she would have married by then I am sure. I have the same problem with Christopher Donnelly he was born in Parramatta and his parents were Margaret Murphy and William Donnelly...i cannot find his birth nor any sign of his parents...I believe they were Convicts but no other clues. ..other than parramatta. He was a catholic despite being buried at St John in Canberra...his coronial death inquiry stated he was born in Parramatta and that matches with all of his arrests in Goulburn before he and Mary Makin broke up.
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other spellings for DONNELLY on NSW official records may well include:
DANOLY and DANILY and DONNELY, for the tailor of Parramatta circa 1820s ...
The spellings are only significantly important when using online databases ... :)
JM
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yes of course but when dealing with illiterate people they do not spell their names they are at the mercy of whoever is writing it down....so they decide how it is spelt.
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even literacy was not enough. If registering a birth, until end of WWI, it was all done on verbal info for NSW, so clerk on one side of high and wide counter with huge ledger book facing the clerk, not the informant. Say mother, even with full literacy, in a deputy registrar's office, often the admin office of the local court house where clerk was part timer, usually part of CPS staff, ... mother registering second, or third or later baby, so has all the kids at her side, and wants to present new baby etc ... gives the info, clerk records it, and then swings book around, blotting paper at hand, covering much of the info already recorded and says "mark here"... so she puts an X there, ... clerk doesn't say 'sign here' so she doesn't use her signature... and then in 21st century we presume she was illiterate...
JM
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These are the marriages identified here?
1851/1844 V18441851 76 MCARTHUR Catherine m. MAKIN James @ PJ
2052/1864 MAKIN Mary m. DONELLY Christopher @ Goulburn
3587/1865 MACCUM Elizabeth m. MOORE John @ Yass
2037/1867 MAKIN Catherine m. DALLAS James @ Goulburn
3802/1870 DONELLY Mary m. WOOD Martin @ Yass
For each certificate that you have, can you please list all the information on each certificate.
2037 / 1867.......where Elizabeth names her mother Catherine WEST......this would be her mother's maiden name.
And 1844 marriage is possibly widowed Catherine McARTHUR nee WEST marrying James MAKIN?
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Yes, I have similar list too, and similar questions too... smallest details should not be overlooked.
I wonder if the chap bitten by the snake survived? https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/63239859 Empire 21 Nov 1865, seems to say so, but it was printed in Sydney...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/100828409 Goulburn H & C 18 Oct 1865 concern he may not survive and it was local news.
A skim of NSW BDM births suggests no children for Christopher and Mary... DONELLY or DONNELLY 1864 - 1870
JM
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There’s a Catherine, 24 December 1826, baptism recorded at St Marys RC, Sydney, daughter of Benjamin WEST late of the 48th regiment. Sponsors Thomas and Mary ASHTON... and by 1828, Catherine West aged 2, Protestant, in household of Benjamin WEST, Clarence St, Sydney...
Thomas ASHTON was Colour Sergeant for 48th Regiment.
Benjamin & Biddy WEST recorded as parents in St Philips C of E register (ie NSW Chaplains Register for all clergy of various denominations) John, their son, born 5 May 1819, baptised 16 May 1819.
Benjamin and Bridget WEST, parents for Benjamin born 10 Jan 1825, baptised 30 Jan 1825, St Philips register
.............................
Here’s another Catherine WEST ... SEE the Col Sec Papers... Index has her in family arriving 1821, per Westmoreland and victualled from Windsor stores for six months.
General Muster Sept 1825 Catherine WEST, daughter of Thomas WEST, per Westmoreland 1821 came free, at Bathurst district ...
1828 Census Catherine WEST, per Westmoreland 1821, aged 8, in household of Thomas WEST, Muff Farm, Bathurst.
Note, further info available for Thomas WEST who came free per Westmoreland, with wife, 2 sons, 6 daughters.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
There's other possible candidates for the bride in the 1844 m.c.
BUT I am concerned that it will be speculative until further info can be gleaned from those m.c.s... and the parish registers.
JM
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well I am here so I guess there was a child...albert George Donnelly was my great grandfather. and his death states his father was christopher donnelly.
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The problem is the Gaol at Goulburn stated that Catherine West was really catherine wilkinson...from Limerick which I would assume is an old plantation name...however I am not sure about limerick being part of the plantation area.
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This couple are your great great grandparents?
2052/1864 MAKIN Mary m. DONELLY Christopher @ Goulburn
Using BDM NSW index I am not seeing any children born to this couple.
Your DONNELLY great grandparent.....what name please, and when and where was this person marry....live...die.....
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Albert George donnelly 1938 at Boorowa
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"..albert George Donnelly was my great grandfather."
How does he name his parents on his marriage certificate. Where and when was he born.
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I have never bought the marriage cert. he thinks he was born in Yass in the boorowa newspaper. For years I thought he was brought up by his fathers sister who married Martin wood, but then when I found the newspaper article stating he the step brother of the Wood children I realised that mary Donnelly was actually Mary Makin.
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was the step brother...but of course they meant Half brother.
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james Makin Widower, member of the presbyterian church of scotland abode james park
married catherine mcarthur spinster Member NOT Stated..abode james park carcoar
Colin Stewart minister of the Vale of Clwyd. abode not stated.
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Witnesses were John Langdon, John west Junior and Agnes Kirkpatrick.
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sorry that was James West Junior
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John Landon
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1889
Albert G DONNELLY and Ada MANSFIELD married. The marriage was registered in the Boorowa district, during March/April/May/June. The reference # is 3923. This is a marriage registered prior to 1895, and it was not registered at any of the Metropolitan offices for NSW BDM, so it may be one of the many rural marriage registrations that have not been reconciled by NSW BDM against Church Registers. If so, it is likely to be one of the many with elusive blanks as detailed earlier in my post reply # 1
I strongly suggest you need to sight the information for that marriage that Albert provided first hand about himself and his parents. It will include his then usual address, his occupation, his age, where and when born, and his parents names, including mum’s nee name and any other formal names she had used, and his dad’s occupation. There was at least one other couple named Christopher and Mary DONNELLY in rural NSW in that era. See the following newspaper cutting with sad news about the death of a 21 year old daughter. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/239999335 Queanbeyan Observer 18 Aug 1896. So that lass was born circa 1875, perhaps in NSW.
I have looked over several electoral rolls for various electorates in the central western and south western regions of NSW in the 1870s, and I can see there’s several Christopher DONNELLY entries suggesting perhaps three chaps with that name, spelling variations include DONNELLEY …
JM
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yes but the one who married mary makin and was the father of Albert George was born in Parramatta in 1842 and his parents were William t. Donnelly and Margaret Murphy so that makes him the father of the girl in Canberra...and of course albert george.
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yes but the one who married mary makin and was the father of Albert George was born in Parramatta in 1842 and his parents were William t. Donnelly and Margaret Murphy so that makes him the father of the girl in Canberra...and of course albert george.
You need to consider how you actually support/validate every part of the above, otherwise it is simply speculations.
JM
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NSW ER 1902 WERRIWA, polling at Burrowa (first roll with females)
Ada DONNELLY, of Burrowa, domestic duties
Albert George DONNELLY of Burrowa, hairdresser.
no others with that surname (or variations) at that polling place
JM
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that is what he said on the marriage cert. to Mary Makin...of course he could be lying...we have no way of knowing...but each time he was arrested they said he was born in Parramatta then off he went to Canberra and married Mary Mcdonald and he said the same thing he was born in 1842 in parramatta he had parents by the name of William T, Donnelly and Margaret Murphy (who have never been found). I have no doubt he is the right one...none at all. Unless someone comes up with another Christopher Donnelly who was born in parramatta in 1842 and had the exact same parents.
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The marriage record, 1889, Albert G DONNELLY and Ada MANSFIELD. is the earliest evidence you have that your ancestor existed?
In researching his origins, you need to see this record. You need to see information that he gives about himself, by himself.
The Burrowa News 1 Jul 1938 p7
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/102500499?
...obituary for Albert George DONNELLY....72 years old...only son of the late Christopher DONNELLY of Yass where he (Albert) was born.....
This is information about your Albert George, presented after his death. This would be information gathered by his family while he was alive, with Albert as the source.
Using NSW BDM index I see three sons to Albert George DONNELLY and Ada. Albert George, the only son of Christopher, does not give that name to a son?.......... worth noting.
The information on BDM certificates is important for your research. You need to list the information...all in one place...… Giving fragmented details over these numerous posts is inefficient, and difficult to use as reference material. You need to list the contents of certificates.
Can you please list the details on the certificates that you have, and also get the marriage certificate for your ancestor, Albert George DONNELLY, 1889.
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I cannot see how I will find out who Catherine McArthur is through Georges marriage to Ada. His parents committed bigamy they would not be telling him this.
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May I add to the excellent words from wivenhoe.
I see an INDEX entry for a death in 1911, registered Queanbeyan. It is for a Christopher DONNELLY, father's given name displayed as William T, mother as Margaret. Ref #7292.
Red Post.
I am suggesting you need to validate your research before you proceed back through the generation to Catherine McARTHUR.
JM
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215024798 Murrumburrah Signal etc. 28 April 1911 death of Christopher DONNELLY, an old man in accident.
JM
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yes he got kicked in the head by a horse...in 1911. I think I have proven it all I just have not bought all the certs. It was hard work and I did it on my own...i do not think going back to catherine Mcarthur is going too far back...thanks anyway.
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I did send you what was on the cert for her marriage to James Makin.
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The first witness called was Mary DONNELLY, widow of the deceased, to whom, she said, she had been married in 1860. They resided at Weetangara. For the past five years or less her husband had been an old-age pensioner; before that he was a labourer. He was 69 ... last birthday, ... born Parramatta ..
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/31379192 Queanbeyan Age 21 April 1911.
JM
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Your words -
"..Mary Makin is also a brick wall because her death is a complete mystery to me she must have died in Burrowa …"
Albert George is your link to his mother, and her origins. Albert's marriage record is important to your research. It will name his parents and indicate if they are deceased at 1889. It will name witnesses, and they might be family.
You need continuity in your research...…...connecting generations.
What marriage certificates do you have...…..accessible right now. Are you using information given to you conversationally by others, about the details on the certificates?
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The 1911 death registration at Queanbeyan has parents as William T and Margaret. You need to confirm that information as it is informant driven, NSW BDM does not and did not validate the information provided to them. You need Albert's marriage cert to confirm who he gave as his parents, and then to work back from there. Newspaper cuttings are very helpful in supporting/validating info, but there are official records to seek out.
JM
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I continue to think there's two or more chaps named Christopher DONNELLY in rural/regional NSW in the 1870s ... which takes me to the NSW BDM online index, marriage 1867, Queanbeyan, Mary MCDONALD and Christopher DONNELLY... #2932. Without ALL the info available from the parish register re the bride and the groom and their parents it is simply NOT possible to consider that Christopher is the same chap who married Mary MAKIN...
I don't see how it can be considered a bigamous marriage.
Re Mary MAKIN marrying twice .... and then having a child by her first husband several years after her second marriage....
Sorry, but dots are not joining up for me. It is of course up to you to set your own standards of proof for your own research.
JM
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I have the marriage of catherine and James Makin. We all know that they married in 1867 what people say is not what they actually mean. in 1860 he was not married at all. he stated on the marriage cert to mary makin his parents william T, donnelly and margaret murphy. That came from the certificate sent to me by David who sent it to me.
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his death states christopher donnelly as his father....I am pretty sure that is what he said to people why would they make it up.
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his death states christopher donnelly as his father....I am pretty sure that is what he said to people why would they make it up.
But which Christopher DONNELLY ... there's at least two likely chaps by that name,in rural NSW in the 1870s. The two I can see were both married in NSW, and both were married to lasses with that very popular first name of Mary. Without sighting the parish registers for those two marriages, and obtaining the first hand info recorded there from both the bride and the groom it is simply not possible to determine that the two chaps named Christopher were one and the same person. The NSW BDM records are not sufficient UNLESS they have been reconciled. NSW BDM website confirms this.
JM
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you must have a completely different index to me because I can only find one..Donnelly and Donelly both the same person
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If I am correctly reading the story.....these are the first, and second (bigamous) marriages for your Mary MAKIN?
2052/1864 MAKIN Mary m. DONELLY Christopher @ Goulburn
3802/1870 DONELLY Mary m. WOOD Martin @ MARY @ Yass
"..Elizabeth and her husband John Moore were also witnesses to Mary Donnellys marriage to Martin Wood in 1870.
If Mary was to have a second bigamous marriage, and only a few years after the first, I wonder that she would stay in the same area.....Goulburn...Yass. And that close family members would agree to be complicit in this illegal marriage?.
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One step at a time. Not 1867.
James MAKIN married Catherine MCARTHUR, Carcoi (sic, Carcoar) 16 September, 1844. His marital status indexed as Widowed, hers as single.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZS-4JM
and
James MAKIN and Catherine MCARTHUR, Volume 76, line 1851, for 1844.
NSW BDM online INDEX "PJ" Itinerant Rev Colin STEWART, Bowenfels.
Have you actually sought access to the actual parish register for that marriage, perhaps sought access to the clergy's diary if extant ... You could look for margin entry info or notes written by clergy when interviewing the couple prior to marriage. HOWEVER, even with that info, you still need to consider joining the dots from that 1844 document to Mary MAKIN's marriage to Christopher DONNELLY ... you need to see the info Mary gave the clergy when she married. If she was not yet 21, who gave permission for her to marry as she was not yet old enough to give permission herself.
JM
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What one index are you relying on?
JM
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1891 Christopher DONNELLY at Round Hill CANBERRA ... 2 males, 3 females in household. NSW 1891 Householders census, image at familysearch.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96K-FDFD?i=43&cc=2317858
JM
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the nsw BDM
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NSW BDM online index is NOT complete, particularly for bdm events prior to about 1856 when civil registration commenced, and they readily acknowledge this. The actual online index was developed out of an index prepared in the 1930s by volunteers. Prior to that index, the bdm staff had bound up much of the Early church holdings into Volumes in around 1912, hence the V for volumes. So by 1912 those records that NSW BDM actually held had been well worn particularly at the usual top and bottom corners and the ink had bled through etc.
JM
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according to one of the descendants of that family an unknown child turned up at the funeral of Mary McDonald ...they had no idea she existed at this distance in time I suspect it was George....he probably found out by she died at bowral I think.
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So, prior to 1856 it was NOT compulsory for bdm events to be registered with the civil authorities, and after the introduction of civil registration, there were still significant issues restricting the amount of detail given to NSW bdm Reg Generals office until about the mid 1890s.
I don't encourage reliance on NSW BDM online index for 19th Century info, but it is an excellent starting point.
So, back to your actual research, may I please suggest you give consideration to obtaining the full official transcription of Albert's marriage to Ada. And using the info he gave about himself and his parents at that time, then work back to at least validate your current research.
JM
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according to one of the descendants of that family an unknown child turned up at the funeral of Mary McDonald ...they had no idea she existed at this distance in time I suspect it was George....he probably found out by she died at bowral I think.
A death - Mary DONNELLY , registered Bowral district, 1918. NSW BDM online index #942 Online index gives her father as Alexander for his given name. No given name recorded on the index for her mum.
JM
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I have applied for it...I am awaiting the email.
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/31641517 Queanbeyan Age and Queanbeyan Observer 5 Jan 1918.
Notice the deceased was described as the wife of Christopher DONNELLY of Canberra ... so he was still LIVING at that time.
JM
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no he wasn't...he died in 1911
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according to my cousin in Newcastle she started the family tree but lost interest she got mary makins name from the marriage cert. of george and Ada.
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So a Christopher DONNELLY, husband of a Mary and that chap is known to you to have died in 1911
and
there's a Christopher DONNELLY husband of a Mary who died in 1918 at Bowral, and that chap still alive at that time and living in Canberra.
So there's two chaps named Christopher DONNELLY with wife as Mary alive in the very era and general locality of your Christopher and Mary DONNELLY.
ADD
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215024798 Murrumburrah Signal etc. 28 April 1911 death of Christopher DONNELLY, an old man in accident.
JM
JM
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i hardly think there are two christopher donnellys living in canberra at any time. a descendant of christopher donnelly and mary mcdonald said that mary went to live with her daughter in bowral once christopher got kicked by the horse and died.
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i hardly think there are two christopher donnellys living in canberra at any time. a descendant of christopher donnelly and mary mcdonald said that mary went to live with her daughter in bowral once christopher got kicked by the horse and died.
Not sure that I have further opportunity to help your quest, my offline resources are quite extensive and concentrate on NSW in the 19th century, but at the moment it is more important for me that I get back onto my work commitments.
I urge you to quietly take the time to read back over all the posts on this thread, and also to remove the name of the living person mentioned by you.
Good hunting,
JM
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/99019433?searchTerm=mary%20donnelly%20bowral%201918%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&searchLimits=
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thanks for all your interest.
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/99019433?searchTerm=mary%20donnelly%20bowral%201918%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&searchLimits=
So that rules out Mary MAKIN as born in NSW to James and Catherine who married at Carcoar. It may be that Mary is daughter of James first marriage. :)
ADD
Remember too there's a Mary MCDONALD, who married a Christopher DONNELLY, and her death has Alexander as her dad's given name ... Alexander is a good Scottish given name. And it seems to me that this Mrs DONNELLY is the one in the newspaper cutting above. :)
JM
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I am sorry you have lost me completely. christopher Donnelly went to canberra and married mary mcdonald and they had a bunch of children she died in bowral in 1918, he died in Queanbeyan in 1911....how does that death notice prove that that mary makin was not born in nSW? I think perhaps we will leave it at that christopher and mary parted she married martin wood and he married mary macdonald. I do not understand what that has to do with catherine mcarthur. goodbye and once again thanks for you interest.
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Tidying up desk, overlooked posting this earlier.
Grevilles 1872 PO Directory GOULBURN
Mary DONNELLY, householder, Bourke St, Goulburn
http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=11
She was still listed in that directory in 1875, at Bourke St.
JM
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/99019433 10 Jan 1918 Goulburn Evening Penny.
I am sure you will agree that this cutting reads:
QUEANBEYAN.
At Bowral hospital on January 3 there died another of the pioneers of the Queanbeyan district, Mrs Mary Donnelly, widow of the late Christophor Donnelly, of Canberra.
Deceased was born in Inverness, Scotland, in 1845, and came to this State with her parents at the age of nine years. She had resided in Queanbeyan district ever since.
Mr. Donnelly, of Queanbeyan, is a son of deceased, and Mrs. R. Robinson, also of Queanbeyan, is a
daughter.
So that Mary arrived in Australia with her parents at age 9. So she arrived c1854. So her mum was not Catherine McARTHUR who was married in NSW in 1844 and is person you mention in your topic heading.
JM :)
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that is mary mcdonald who is the 2nd wife of christopher donnelly...NOT my great great grandmother Mary Makin....Mary Mcdonald has nothing whatever to do with me. I think you have gone off piste. Mary makin is who I am descended from NOT mary mcdonald
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that is mary mcdonald who is the 2nd wife of christopher donnelly...NOT my great great grandmother Mary Makin....Mary Mcdonald has nothing whatever to do with me. I think you have gone off piste. Mary makin is who I am descended from NOT mary mcdonald
Without the info on the parish registers for those marriages, it is not possible for you to have confidence that there was only one Christopher DONNELLY marrying twice , the second time while his first wife was still alive and living in the same general area of the same colony. Same with Mary MARKIN ... you need the primary sources.
From the dc for the chap who died in 1911, how many marriages, and name of spouse/s and his age at marriage, and children of each marriage... these are significant questions for you to consider.
JM
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There’s an online tree with around 53,400 names…
http://www.bellsite.id.au/Site/family_trees.html
http://www.bellsite.id.au/gdbtree/HTMLFiles/HTMLFiles_77/P42996.html
http://www.bellsite.id.au/gdbtree/HTMLFiles/HTMLFiles_02/P42997.html
http://www.bellsite.id.au/gdbtree/HTMLFiles/HTMLFiles_106/P27678.html
It seems that someone has informed the tree owner that Mary MAKIN died giving birth to their Great Grandfather, Albert George DONNELLY …. The reference shows the source as someone with similar name to our OP, and messages were dated 27 August 2015.
ADD
Mention of William DONNELLY at Parramatta.
I have been given some speculative info which I share.
Please consider a check of the 1825 General Muster Parramatta District ... two chaps named as William DONNELLY. One with a wife as Esther CREW and the other with a wife as Elizabeth CROOK, both having children in same year/s as each other.
Perhaps one of lasses had a son named after the child’s dad ...who then in the 1840s had a son named Christopher, in the Parramatta district (which at that time was extensive, right along the River on the northern side, to meet St Leonards district) etc ...
Many of the births in NSW prior to civil registration simply did NOT result in a baptism that was re-transmitted to the NSW Chaplains. There's many children who were not baptised. So it is very possible, likely even that there's two chaps called Christopher DONNELLY in the large area from say Young/Grenfell south to the Murray river and across from say Braidwood to west of Canberra.
JM
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Yes that is what I said, i used to think that mary died giving birth to Albert....and christopher went off to Canberra and married Mary mcdonald. then I realised that she was the mary donelly who married martinjwood and brought up albert george. Once I saw that her sister elizabeth had witnessed her wedding to martin Wood the jig was up so to speak.
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that was a reply to catheirne makins marriage in 1867 to james Dallas..I would like to delete all of it however I have no idea how to do it.
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oh no that was the marriage of mary mcdonald and christopher donnelly in 1867...when you quoted mary mcdonald as saying they married in 1860....its immaterial now anyway
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James Arrived with his wife hannah Scott from Scotland on ship with sickness, she died in Quarantine. He needed a baby sitter for his 3 children so married Catherine McArthur she had 3 daughters to him and he died.
One of my contacts (not an RChatter) has asked me to share the following, as they are particularly concerned that there's six years or so between arrival and re-marriage - that's a very long delay, and is most unusual in that era ...
So
There’s a James MAKEIM and his wife Hannah MAKEIM and three children who were on the William Rodgers which arrived 26 September 1838.
He was a shoemaker and woolcarder aged 30 years, of Fifeshire, Scotland. Father as William MAKEIM, a weaver and mother as Mary THOMPSON. James was Presbyterian, aged 30 years and could read and write a little.
Hannah MAKEIM was daughter of David SCOTT, a Slater and her mum was recorded as Jane YOUNG. Hannah was Presbyterian, and aged 30 years. She could read and write.
Their children who accompanied them were William aged 8 years as at Sept 1838, Charles aged 2 years as at April 1838 and Jane aged 6 years as at June 1838.
The William Rodgers arrived 26 Sept 1838. Hannah died at Spring Cove (the then Quarantine Station in Port Jackson, Sydney New South Wales).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBY3-X28?cc=1542665
I agree with my contact and I add:
I think this is the family that our OP connects back to. I am unsure if the 1844 marriage at Carcoar would be for the same chap. It seems quite a long period of time between Hannah’s death and James re-marriage if he was seeking someone to care for his children. Hopefully the parish register noted the ‘ship of arrival’ for the groom.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/166586373 Sydney General Trade ... 29 Sept 1838
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?series=NRS5313&item=4_4780&ship=William%20Rodger free to search digitised passenger list of the William Rodger, James MEIKAM page 2.
JM EDITED to sort out some grammar issues.
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For others coming across this thread in the future …
Mary, daughter of James and Caroline MAKEN (spelling as per two indexes noted below) was born 30 August 1849 and baptised at Carcoar (NSW) 5 October 1849.
:) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTC2-55X : 11 February 2018 family search index
:) NSW BDM online index has Mary, dau of James and Caroline MAKEN, baptism 1849, Volume 34A line 1609
If this is Mary MAKIN, third daughter of Mrs BOLSTON, then Mary was not yet 21 when she married Christopher DONNELLY, and so the name of the person giving consent to marry should be recorded on the parish register, as well has the names of Mary’s father and mother (maiden and then current and possibly any other names she may have used in the past)
There is an Ann MAKEN marrying a James COX in 1851, Vol 37B, line 65, registered in the parish registers for St James C of E, Sydney.
Re the thought that Mary’s mum had three children by James, and that Mary was the third … ie that Caroline was a misread for Catherine. There’s two baptisms that may be of interest, but I note they are NOT C of E (so they are different denomination from James and Caroline’s daughter Mary).
NSW BDM online index gives:
Elizabeth A, in 1847, daughter of James and Catherine MAKIN, line 857 of Vol 49
Catherine, in 1846, daughter of James and Catherine MAKIN, line 866 of Vol 48.
NSW State Archives gives Volumes 37 and 48 and 49:
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856 There’s an excellent section under the heading ‘Historical overview’.
And familysearch gives
Catherine MAKIN baptised 10 March 1846, in the county of COOK, with parents as James MAKIN and Catherine MCARTHUR.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTD8-DLG : 19 April 2018
See also https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-guide
I continue to suggest seeking out the primary source documentation.
Cook County should be mentioned the the atlas found via this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=700823.0
and also here https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/3791348
JM