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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Craigellachie2019 on Wednesday 18 July 18 12:10 BST (UK)
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Hello all, I wondered if anyone could help with a problem I have just discovered with my Ancestry tree. I realised I had 2 George "Fling" Smith b 1790 d 1858 - so I merged them - I thought Ancestry was having a hiccup and had put him in again instead of adding when I added a record. Unfortunately it now shows him as having two wives and two families - basically at the same time - so I believe I am looking for another George Smith for one of the ladies. One George married Margaret "Farmer" Murray 30 Sep 1809 - Rathven and the other married Ann Sinclair at Rathven 31 Aug 1811. Yes - could be same person - except Margaret and George had children between 1810 and 1830 and Ann and George had children between 1812 and 1837, so I believe there must be another George Smith - oh joy! Ann Sinclair is my 3rd gr grandmother - so I obviously want to make sure I have the right George. I bought Scotlandspeople death for a George Smith d 17 Feb 1858 at Findochty. It states George Smith was a Fisherman - married - no wife's name. Says he was 67 and parents were William Smith (Peter) Fisherman decd and Ann Smith nee Smith. I also have Ann Smith nee Sinclair's death cert in 1869. Says she is the widow of George Smith and her parents were Alexander Sinclair, boat builder decd, and Isabella Sinclair nee Robertson deceased.
Can anyone help me sort these two families out? Thank you in advance.
Anne
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I'm not sure I'm fully understanding but...
What was the age of your George on 1841/1851 census'?
Does it tie with his age on the death you have?
Who was the informant on his death?
Where was he living on both census'?
Does this tie with where he died?
Was wife Ann a widow on 1861 census?
Is she living where the George you have the DC for died?
Annie
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In addition to the questions that Annie asks:
What was the age of your George on 1841/1851 census'?
Does it tie with his age on the death you have?
Who was the informant on his death?
Where was he living on both census'?
Does this tie with where he died?
Was wife Ann a widow on 1861 census?
Is she living where the George you have the DC for died?
Could you give the names of both sets of children in birth order. This could sort out which is yours.
Gadget
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I believe this is the family in 1841 the William and Isobel match to births to George and Ann
Family living in Findochty from Freecen all born Banff
George 50 (occ) Whitefish
Ann 45
George 15
Isabel 15
Margaret 12
William 10
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Children of George and Ann from Scotland's People
William b 1812 died young?
Ann b 1815
Margaret b 1817 died young?
Alexander b 1820
George b 1822
Isabel b 1825
James b 1827
Margaret b 1829
William b1831
John b 1834
Joseph b 1837
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With just a check of the names of their children it does look to be the correct George although a check of the names of the other family are worth looking at as well as the previous questions.
"George Smith was a Fisherman - married - no wife's name. Says he was 67
parents were William Smith (Peter) Fisherman decd and Ann Smith nee Smith.
Ann Smith nee Sinclair's death cert in 1869. Says she is the widow of George Smith
parents were Alexander Sinclair, boat builder decd, and Isabella Sinclair nee Robertson"
William b 1812 died young?
Ann b 1815
Margaret b 1817 died young?
Alexander b 1820
George b 1822
Isabel b 1825
James b 1827
Margaret b 1829
William b1831
John b 1834
Joseph b 1837
Annie
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In 1851 possible census again from Freecen
In Rathven address as Road Leading South
George 60 fisherman b Rathven married
Margaret dau 20 b Rathven unmarried
William son 18 b Rathven unmarried
William Smith grson 6 m b Rathven
William Flett grson 9 b Rathven
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Wonder where wife Ann was, in 1851?
Annie
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Wonder where wife Ann was, in 1851?
Annie
Been looking for her but nothing
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1851
William son 18 b Rathven unmarried
William Smith grson 6 m b Rathven
William Flett grson 9 b Rathven
William is very prominent in the family, it would be interesting to know the names of the other family to compare as well as who the informant was on George's death which may even give the informant's address?
Annie
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Not sure if this is any help? but...
1855 VRs (they only start from 1855)
SMITH GEORGE
Proprietor Occupier
DWELLING HOUSE FINDOCHTY, RATHVEN
VR009100001-
2 others named George at PETERHYTHE, Rathven & PORTESSIE, Rathven
All gone by 1865 ::)
However, it's other places to look for the other family possibly?
Annie
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Ann possibly in 1861in Rathven Address 3 Peterhayth & Porteasie
Visitor in the house of
John McTosh 42
Margaret wife 54
Ann Smith 67 Whitefisher's widow
All born Rathven
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The George and Margaret Smith family
Margaret b 1810
Alexander b 1811
Big gap
Jane b 1820
John b 1822
William b 1824
Helen b 1825
Ann b 1828
Elspet b 1830
Possibly the family in 1841 no George and looks like head of the house is John b 1822
From Freecen
Address Porteasy Rathven
John 15 Whitefisher
Margaret 45
Helen 15
Ann 12
Elspet 9
James 20 Whitefisher
George 15 Whitefisher
All born Banff
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Just having a quick look at the names of family (2), I would envisage they may well be related, possibly cousins at least but I don't think they're the family we are looking for?
I may be wrong but it looks as though George (Snr) may already be deceased :-\
Is Margaret (aged 45) a widow in 1841?
Annie
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I may be wrong but it looks as though George (Snr) may already be deceased :-\
Is Margaret (aged 45) a widow in 1841?
Annie
Don't think that was noted on the 1841 census certainly nothing on the Freecen transcription
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Wendy,
Your info. has been very helpful but I think the 'key' here is the informant on the DC for George in 1858 to see if it gives any clues as anything else now would be pure speculation.
Just read your last post!
Depending on who the informant of the death was, if it was a neighbour or other then Alanna may have to purchase the original for 'Margaret' in 1841 I think?
I'm pretty sure it normally states on the original what the status was but looking at the fact the son is 'Head' would suggest she's a widow (I think) :-\
Annie
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Wendy,
Your info. has been very helpful but I think the 'key' here is the informant on the DC for George in 1858 to see if it gives any clues as anything else now would be pure speculation.
Just read your last post!
Depending on who the informant of the death was, if it was a neighbour or other then Alanna may have to purchase the original for 'Margaret' in 1841 I think?
I'm pretty sure it normally states on the original what the status was but looking at the fact the son is 'Head' would suggest she's a widow (I think) :-\
Annie
Agreed I think Margaret was a widow in 1841 also can't find her in 1851 so possibly died or emigrated as noticed on Ancestry somebody had linked a photo to an Elspet Fling Smith in Australian records I noticed that in the op called George Smith George Fling Smith
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Agreed then on the DC being the 'key' i.e. we await the reply from Alanna to hopefully give her the confirmation she needed ;)
Annie
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Apologies to all - I have had Rootschat open all morning and had no replies. I tried another search and Rootschat said it was having problems, so I closed and reopened and all your replies are there so I will try to answer one by one. In the meantime, I have - thru Scotlandspeople - the children of Ann and George and the children of Margaret and George. I cannot find Margaret's death. I do have Ann's death from Scotlandspeople which only shows she is the widow of George Smith and parents Alexander Sinclair and Isabella Robertson. I have George's death in 1858 where it states he was 'married' and parents were William Smith and Ann Smith - maiden name Smith. I have found two 1841 census. One showing George aged 50 b Banff, Ann 45 born Banff, George 15, Isabell 15, Margaret 12, William 10. I have found another 1841 census showing Margaret 45 b Banff, John 15, Helen 15, Anna 12, Elspet 9, James 20, George 15. I have found 1861 census showing a Margaret Smith, 73 pauper - 1871 census Margaret aged 79 pauper. No idea if this is the Margaret in question. Have not found any 1851 or 1861 census of any help - presumably because all children have either died or married or taken jobs elsewhere.
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Gadget - the births I found are as follows:
George & Margaret -
Margaret Fling b 1810 - 1887
Alexander b 1811
John Fling Smith b 1825
Elspet Smith b 1830
George & Ann
William b 1812-1856
Ann b 1815
Margaret b 1817
Alexander b 1820
George b 1822
Isabella b 1825 (my 2nd gr grandmother)
James b 1827
Margaret b 1829
William b 1831
John b 1834
Joseph b 1837
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Wendy 3405 - yes the 1841 census is what I found and they are the children I have from SP as well.
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Rosinish - yes - I have George's death cert and have searched George and Ann's children and George and Margaret's children through Scotlandspeople - but my problem is there has to be two George's to have these families and I don't know both George's parents. Obviously I have the one from the death cert - but it only says he was 'married' so don't know if that George was Margaret's husband or Ann's. That is my problem.
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Wendy and Rosinish - yes I found that 1851 census too and no Ann. Maybe she was off visiting someone.
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Rosinish - informant on George's 1858 death was son, George Smith.
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From my first post " I bought Scotlandspeople death for a George Smith d 17 Feb 1858 at Findochty. It states George Smith was a Fisherman - married - no wife's name. Says he was 67 and parents were William Smith (Peter) Fisherman decd and Ann Smith nee Smith. I also have Ann Smith nee Sinclair's death cert in 1869. Says she is the widow of George Smith and her parents were Alexander Sinclair, boat builder decd, and Isabella Sinclair nee Robertson deceased."
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I had searched Scotlandspeople for births of children to George Smith and Margaret Murray and found:
Margaret 1810
Alexander 1811
Jane 1820
John 1822
Helen 1825
Ann 1828
Espet 1830
I also searched SP for births of children to George and Ann and found:
William 1812
Ann 1815
Margaret 1817
Alexander 1820
George 1822
Isabella - 1825 (my 2nd gr grandmother)
James 1827
Margaret 1829
William 1831
John 1834
Joseph 1837
I have searched census data for Joseph, John and William and Margaret as they are closest to 1841 census and thought they may still be at home - but no luck.
I have George Smith's death cert of 1858. It says he was 'married' - no wife's name mentioned. Parents William Smith and Ann Smith nee Smith. Died aged 67. Informant was son, George Smith.
I have Ann Smith nee Sinclair's death 1869. It says she was the widow of George Smith, she was aged 76. Parents Alexander Sinclair boat builder and Isabella Sinclair nee Robertson. Informant, George Smith, son. I know she married George on 31 Aug 1811 registered at Rathven, Banff.
I don't know anything more about Margaret Smith nee Murray other than she married George on 30 Sep 1809, registered at Rathven, Banffshire.
I haven't bought either marriage registration as I have bought many previously in this timeline and they don't show parents names.
I have tried looking for a death of Margaret Smith nee Murray and unless I spend a fortune buying lots of certs, that is a dead end - particularly if she died before 1855.
I was hoping someone may be from either line and may throw some light on the two George's so I can separate them and know each of their parents. As I say above - I can see one set of parents for George on the 1858 death cert - but which George is he? Ann's or Margaret's husband? No census data seems to help so this out.
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I think I have found the right death for Margaret Smith. I purchased the cert. It says she was the widow of George Smith fisherman. She died on 9 Aug 1878 aged 89. Says her parents were John Murray fisherman deceased and Margaret Murray nee Stewart deceased. I had her parents as John Murray and Helen Stewart. The informant was Jane Farquhar - daughter. One of George and Margaret's daughters was Jane and she married Robert Farquhar so I believe this is the right Margaret. There are a few census which could be her in 1851 1861 and 1871 but nothing concrete yet. However this hasn't helped in finding out about the two Georges - which is all I am trying to find.
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PS I also bought the marriage regn of Anne Sinclair and George Smith. Doesn't give parents names as I expected.
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Depending on who the informant of the death was, if it was a neighbour or other then Alanna may have to purchase the original for 'Margaret' in 1841 I think?
I'm pretty sure it normally states on the original what the status was but looking at the fact the son is 'Head' would suggest she's a widow (I think) :-\
If you are hoping to find out from the 1841 census whethere she was or was not a widow, you will be disappointed. The 1841 census does not record marital status or relationships. If you have the transcription from FreeCEN (NB NOT from A******y which is notorious for errors) you are extremely unlikely to get anything more from the original.
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Alanna if you check the Census in reply 6 I believe this is your family in 1851 with George still living so more than likely to be the death in 1858 also what is the address on the death cert for that George
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I notice you have Isabella and William deaths these correspond to the births of George and Ann children do you have William death cert again who was the informant and what address is given as William is at home with his father in 1851
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Rosinish - yes - I have George's death cert and have searched George and Ann's children and George and Margaret's children through Scotlandspeople - but my problem is there has to be two George's to have these families and I don't know both George's parents. Obviously I have the one from the death cert - but it only says he was 'married' so don't know if that George was Margaret's husband or Ann's. That is my problem.
Another question sorry do any of the children marry or die before 1858 on both families have you checked if they state if their father is deceased as I believe that George who married Margaret died before the 1841 census a good one to check would be William's death in 1856 and hopefully it was his father who was the informant
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If you are hoping to find out from the 1841 census whethere she was or was not a widow, you will be disappointed. The 1841 census does not record marital status or relationships. If you have the transcription from FreeCEN (NB NOT from A******y which is notorious for errors) you are extremely unlikely to get anything more from the original.
Of course you're correct Forfarian...
I was sure I'd seen 'widow' on an 1841 (which I had) although not 'status' (as you say) but occupation...
MCINTYRE Sarah F 30 Farmers Widow Inverness-shire, South Uist
Piece: SCT1841/118 Place: South Uist -Inverness-shire Enumeration District: 16
Civil Parish: South Uist
Folio: 16 Page: 15
Address: North Boisdle (sic)
Annie
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Wendy, your message:
"I notice you have Isabella and William deaths these correspond to the births of George and Ann children do you have William death cert again who was the informant and what address is given as William is at home with his father in 1851"
I bought William's death cert in 1856 just now and it says his father George Smith, Fisherman, Findochty, Ann Smith maiden name, Sinclair. William died at sea. Informant was a 'Flett' nephew of the deceased. George appears to still be alive 1856. George is deceased in Isabella's death cert in 1898. I have tried searching the other male children to find their deaths but no real help there. A couple of the women who I see in other trees have husbands I have checked and they die in the 1900s so that's no good either.
We're trying our hardest aren't we - it's a hard one.
Anne
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Wendy, your message:
"I notice you have Isabella and William deaths these correspond to the births of George and Ann children do you have William death cert again who was the informant and what address is given as William is at home with his father in 1851"
I bought William's death cert in 1856 just now and it says his father George Smith, Fisherman, Findochty, Ann Smith maiden name, Sinclair. William died at sea. Informant was a 'Flett' nephew of the deceased. George appears to still be alive 1856. George is deceased in Isabella's death cert in 1898. I have tried searching the other male children to find their deaths but no real help there. A couple of the women who I see in other trees have husbands I have checked and they die in the 1900s so that's no good either.
We're trying our hardest aren't we - it's a hard one.
Anne
The Flett nephew is his name William that would tie in with the 1851 census which shows George is still alive the death appears to show George still alive in 1856 To me that tells me you have probably got the right death for George in 1858 The only other record I can think of would be the 1851 census of Margaret to confirm she was a widow would which to me would be definite proof
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In 1851 possible census again from Freecen
In Rathven address as Road Leading South
George 60 fisherman b Rathven married
Margaret dau 20 b Rathven unmarried
William son 18 b Rathven unmarried
William Smith grson 6 m b Rathven
William Flett grson 9 b Rathven
Just a reminder of that census & what looks to be William's baptism;
FLETT WILLIAM 26/05/1841
ALEXANDER FLETT/MARGT. SMITH (Parents)
164/30 169 Rathven
Agree with Wendy, pretty much seals it, remembering there were 2 daughters named Margaret i.e. the Margaret on the 1851 is not the mother of William as she's too young.
George & Ann
William b 1812-1856
Ann b 1815
Margaret b 1817 (likely mother of William Flett)?
Alexander b 1820
George b 1822
Isabella b 1825 (my 2nd gr grandmother)
James b 1827
Margaret b 1829
William b 1831
John b 1834
Joseph b 1837
Annie
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Wendy sorry no - its not William Flett informant on William Smith's death. It is badly written but I think it is Alexr. Flett. It actually looks like Kefr. Unfortunately the three deaths on that page were all drowned in the same storm and Alexr. (if that is it) is the informant on all three. Actually now I read it again - again badly written, I can see it is actually 'neighbour' not 'nephew' on all three. I hadn't noticed he was on all three before.
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Another find everyone. Elspet Smith married John Cormack in 1856. I purchased the marriage cert and her parents are George Smith and Margaret Smith nee Murray - and George is ' eureka ' 'DECEASED'. Now I just have to find out who he is. AT least this means I have my direct line right. Will just have to find the other George's line now.
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Another find everyone. Elspet Smith married John Cormack in 1856. I purchased the marriage cert and her parents are George Smith and Margaret Smith nee Murray - and George is ' eureka ' 'DECEASED'. Now I just have to find out who he is. AT least this means I have my direct line right. Will just have to find the other George's line now.
yeah well done good find at least now you know you are on the right track
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yes not going to be easy finding who he is or when he died. These are the search results for Banff between 1829 and 1855. There was only one in Moray - aged 55 died 1838. Find it hard to believe any of the Banff ones are him. All places bar Banff are inland - and the Banff one was aged 0.
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Elspet Smith married John Cormack in 1856. I purchased the marriage cert and her parents are George Smith and Margaret Smith nee Murray - and George is ' eureka ' 'DECEASED'. Now I just have to find out who he is. AT least this means I have my direct line right. Will just have to find the other George's line now.
Your George appears to have died 1858 i.e. the George (deceased) in 1856 doesn't appear to be yours.
Recap...
children to George Smith and Margaret Murray and found:
Margaret 1810
Alexander 1811
Jane 1820
John 1822
Helen 1825
Ann 1828
Espet 1830
children to George and Ann and found:
William 1812
Ann 1815
Margaret 1817
Alexander 1820
George 1822
Isabella - 1825 (my 2nd gr grandmother)
James 1827
Margaret 1829
William 1831
John 1834
Joseph 1837
There's no 'Elspet' in this family i.e. I am of the belief you have the correct DC for your George.
What was the address/age for Elspet (on marriage) & what was father's occ?
Annie
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Rosinish - Elspeth's residence was 'Portessie'. Her father George shown as deceased married to Margaret Murray was a fisherman. The George who died in 1858 was also recorded as a fisherman and he lived at Findochty. Because I now know the George who is shown as deceased at Elspeth's marriage in 1856 was married to Margaret Murray (listed as mother on the marriage regn) I know the George who died in 1858 is mine. Looking at all the information people have supplied - and from census I had also found - as there is no George listed in the 1841 nor 51 census where Margaret is listed, I believe he was probably deceased by 1841 - Elspeth was born in 1830, so I am surmising death somewhere between 1830 and 1841 - though I am not ruling out because he was a fisherman he may have been away from home fishing, but was definitely deceased by Elspeth's marriage in 1856. I am therefore putting a timeline of 1830-1856 on that George's death, but not sure I will ever find his parents. I should let it go now as having taken MY George off Margaret and putting this new George and timeline in - Margaret is now showing as the mother in law of 2nd cousin 5 x removed - so it is now evident that it is only through some of their children's partners - MARGARET Smith who married Alexander Smith -and JOHN Smith who married Isabella Smith - that there is any direct relationship to me.
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I bought Scotlands people death for a George Smith d 17 Feb 1858 at Findochty. It states George Smith was a Fisherman - married - no wife's name. Says he was 67 and parents were William Smith (Peter) Fisherman decd and Ann Smith nee Smith.
Hi,
So we are on the right page or should I say right track ;D
I have a George Smith born 3 April 1792, in Findochty to William Smith, born 26 April 1751 and Ann Smith, born 18 Jan 1757 in Rathven.
Death of George 17 February 1858 Findochty. I have no other information of a marriage for George, as this was given to me 20 years ago. My connection is to Findochty, as my Mother was born and raised there. George would be my 1st cousin 7x removed :D I am on Ann's line :) Think it works out that Ann's father was my 7th Ggrandfather.
Cheers
KHP
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Kiwi -
"I have a George Smith born 3 April 1792, in Findochty to William Smith, born 26 April 1751 and Ann Smith, born 18 Jan 1757 in Rathven.
Death of George 17 February 1858 Findochty. I have no other information of a marriage for George, as this was given to me 20 years ago. My connection is to Findochty, as my Mother was born and raised there. George would be my 1st cousin 7x removed :D I am on Ann's line :) Think it works out that Ann's father was my 7th Ggrandfather."
I have searched Scotlandspeople and can't find a George Smith born in 1792 to William and Ann Smith. The George Smith I have in my tree married to Anne Sinclair was born on 3 Apr 1790 according to Scotland Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 and according to Scotlandspeople Record 164/10 327 George born to William and Anne Smith on 00/001790 - which is a little strange. George Smith and Anne Sinclair are my 3rd gr grandparents, and their daughter Isabella b 1825 is my 2nd gr grandmother.
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Hi Alanna,
Your year of 1790 is right, and I have been given the wrong year. Unfortunately I can't check with the person who passed this on to me, as they died a few years ago. But the other dates match.
Cheers
KHP
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Let me know if you want copies of any of those documents. Sorry to hear that Kiwi.
Anne
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The George Smith I have in my tree married to Anne Sinclair was born on 3 Apr 1790 according to Scotland Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 and according to Scotlandspeople Record 164/10 327 George born to William and Anne Smith on 00/001790 - which is a little strange.
It's not strange at all.
164 is the parish number for Rathven and 10/327 is the reference to this specific entry.
FamilySearch has it indexed showing a birth on 3 April 1790 and a baptism in 1790, date unspecified. SP indexes the baptism date only, so if it just shows 1790 with no specific date for the baptism, 00/00/1790 (you omitted the second backslash above) is perfectly logical.
Have you viewed the original document on SP? That will clarify exactly what it says, and it just might contain some other useful information.
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Thank you Forfarian - that it explains it beautifully. You have me intrigued that you say the original doc may contain some other useful information, so I will buy it. I did buy a pre 1855 marriage for a different family and it gave me the bride's father's name and occupation which I haven't seen in other pre 1855 marriages I have bought.
Anne
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Hi AlannahGrace,
Elspeth Smith, married to John Cormack, is my relative as well. Her daughter Helen (the one born 1868) is my gg-grandmother. From whom do you descend?
Thank you!
Lauren