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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Tickettyboo on Wednesday 18 July 18 23:27 BST (UK)
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Hope this is understandable, I know what I want to know but putting it down as a question is difficult
:-)
Man died in 1938. He was living in England (and had been doing so for 3 years), where he owned a house and at least one business. He also owned, at the time of his death, land and property and was still a partner in a business - all in Scotland.
I can see on the probate Calendar for England & Wales that Administration of his estate was granted to his widow and son. As its Admin and not Probate that indicates that he died intestate.
Going to take me a while to get to somewhere (Edinburgh probably) to check the Calendar of confirmations for 1938 onwards to see if there is any mention of a confirmation in Scotland.
Does anyone know if the property held in Scotland would need to be dealt with through the Scottish system, in addition to what was obviously done in England? Or would the English Probate system have covered all his assets?
Boo
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If you could post details of the person/any details of areas of the properties if known i.e. County/Town or other, this may help to find him in the VRs (Valuation Rolls) which stop at 1935 but he may have been listed in that year & prior as you say he'd been living in England for 3 yrs in 1938?
This of course would depend on his age when he died whether it's likely he had property in Scotland pre 1935 as you don't give any clues in your post?
Annie
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Regarding property in Scotland & the fact he was living in England it would have to be dealt with through the Scottish courts.
Annie
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Thanks Rosinish,
I already have details of the property he owned in Shetland - got the entry from the Sasine Abridgements today for the largest value land/property he owned, dated 1921. Valuation rolls for 1925, 1930 and 1935 confirm he was the proprietor and there's another entry in the Sasine Abridgements dated well after the man's death as a Notice of Title to transfer title to his son.
There's no doubt that he owned land, property and business in Scotland in addition to the property and businesses he had in England, all of which he owned well before he died and would have been part of his total estate.
What I don't know is if the grant of administration, issued by the Probate Court in England would be enough for the Scottish requirements or if they would have had to sort of double up and also get Confirmation in Scotland to cover the assets held there.
Are you saying that would depend on how old he was / how long he'd had his main residence in first Scotland then England/ how long he had owned the assets in either country?
Boo
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"What I don't know is if the grant of administration, issued by the Probate Court in England would be enough for the Scottish requirements or if they would have had to sort of double up and also get Confirmation in Scotland to cover the assets held there.
Are you saying that would depend on how old he was / how long he'd had his main residence in first Scotland then England/ how long he had owned the assets in either country?"
(1) From what I read in your 1st paragraph, this would (possibly) in effect, entitle his son to inherit the properties/land etc. as he was named/indicated (I assume) as son although I'm not 100% sure?
Scots & English laws were/are different but in Scotland, I believe a child would automatically inherit (as far as I know) although there would be some official procedure of which I can't comment on how this would work?
Someone else with more knowledge may advise different?
(2)..(2nd paragraph) What I was referring to, was being able to find your ancestor/properties on earlier VRs as there were no clues to his age or anything else for him to be listed earlier (if that makes sense)? ;)
Annie
Edit...Assuming his wife was deceased as she would automatically inherit in Scotland rather than the son?
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In effect Probate had to be applied for twice!
Once in England/Wales, and once in Scotland.
I had to do something similar recently for a friend who died, and had property on the Isle of Man, but had shares which had to be dealt with by English Probate!
There are 4 main Legal Jurisdictions to be considered:
England & Wales
Scotland
Northern Ireland (or simply Ireland before 1922)
and the Isle of Man
All 4 have very different Probate procedures, and only deal with property and assets within their own Jurisdiction.
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In effect Probate had to be applied for twice!
Once in England/Wales, and once in Scotland.
Thank you, I suspected that may be the case. I vaguely remember seeing in the England & Wales Probate Calendars something to the effect of a probate being 're-sealed' and mention of Edinburgh, and presumed it had been done in one country (to deal with assets held there) and then passed along to deal with the remaining assets outside the first country's jurisdiction, but had no idea if that would only apply if there was a will.
I've sent an enquiry to an archives that may have copies of the calendars of confirmations to see if there is a mention as the available online ones stop way short of 1938.
Boo
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(1) From what I read in your 1st paragraph, this would (possibly) in effect, entitle his son to inherit the properties/land etc. as he was named/indicated (I assume) as son although I'm not 100% sure?
Scots & English laws were/are different but in Scotland, I believe a child would automatically inherit (as far as I know) although there would be some official procedure of which I can't comment on how this would work?
Someone else with more knowledge may advise different?
(2)..(2nd paragraph) What I was referring to, was being able to find your ancestor/properties on earlier VRs as there were no clues to his age or anything else for him to be listed earlier (if that makes sense)? ;)
Annie
Edit...Assuming his wife was deceased as she would automatically inherit in Scotland rather than the son?
Thanks but I was just looking to find out about probate/confirmation procedure in a case where the deceased owned assets in both countries.
My fault, I suspected that I hadn't phrased the original question as clearly as I might. It had been a long,busy, but fruitful day for family history here and my brain was slightly fried by information overload.
Often the case, I either know very little about someone on my tree or I find that one snippet that leads to LOTS more info.
I do appreciate your input and your points will be relevant when I get to the stage of moving forward to obtain copies of any admin/confirmation documents, so your help will come in useful.
Boo
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Bear in mind that the purpose of probate or confirmation is basically just to establish the Executor's legal right to deal with the estate.
If probate or letters of administration were granted in England, the Executors did not have to go through the full process in Scotland. The Scottish courts would accept the English probate and it would be shown as such in the calendars of confirmation.
In the converse, a confirmation granted in the Scottish courts would be 'sealed' in the English courts.
For example in 1938 Henderson Georgina Isabella Waddell of 10 Park-terrace Crosshill Glasgow widow died 28 February 1938 at Windermere Westmorland. Confirmation of May Cochrane Henderson or McCallum widow and Margaret Thomson Henderson spinster. Sealed London 5 July.
Sorry I can't quote from a Calendar of Confirmations because I don't have a copy handy and I can't think offhand of anyone in my tree whose English probate was rubber-stamped in Scotland.
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If probate was granted in England, the Executors did not have to go through the full process in Scotland. The Scottish courts would accept the English probate and it would be shown as such in the calendars of confirmation.
In the converse, a confirmation granted in the Scottish courts would be 'sealed' in the English courts.
Sorry I can't quote from a Calendar of Confirmations because I don't have a copy handy and I can't think offhand of anyone in my tree whose English probate was rubber-stamped in Scotland.
Thank you, spookily (about two minutes ago) I looked at another entry in the 1938 England & Wales Probate Calendar that also quotes a Confirmation and says it was sealed in London :-)
Hopefully the archives have a copy of the Confirmation Calendar and can confirm if there is an entry that quotes the converse.
Your post prompted me to look at the Calendars of Confirmation 1876-1936 - why do databases always stop a couple of years BEFORE the year I need? ! published on Ancestry and I found this one which bears out what you said - not that I didn't believe you :-)
Allen Frederick William, Durnford, 82 Ross Deep, Twickenham, Middlesex, died 4 October 1935 at same place, intestate. Administration of the Effects granted London, 5 December 1935, to Ada Marion Allen, the widow and Harold Wenlock Allen, the Administrators. Certified at Edinburgh 3 January Value of the estate £7040:7:1.
So it looks like the probate process was carried out in England to grant admin which would give them the authority to access assets held in England
and then that official document was presented to Edinburgh to certify it was okay with them and the Administrators could then use the additionally certified grant to access and administer the assets held in Scotland.
Thank you!
Boo
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hmmm but the 1938 entry in the England and Wales Calendar for the man I am looking at has no mention of the grant being certified in Edinburgh.
I wondered if it was certified maybe much later (the land didn't officially transfer to his son till 1951) but no sign of any other entry in the calendar. Though perhaps they don't do another entry and the original calendar had already been printed so couldn't be altered.
Curious!
Boo
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hmmm but the 1938 entry in the England and Wales Calendar for the man I am looking at has no mention of the grant being certified in Edinburgh.
I don't think it would. Once probate/administraion is granted in England, the Executor(s) can get on with the English proprerty. The English courts don't need to know that the grant has been certified in Scotland, because that's only needed to deal with the property in Scotland.
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Based on what I've gleaned over the years, a Scottish probate or administration is treated as applying in England subject to the process of confirmation or sealing, and vice versa.
The first time I came across this I rang the main probate office in London and they told me it was more or less a rubber stamp exercise, and they wouldn't have anything useful beyond what was in the index. In the case in question here, a similar quick phone call to the Scottish probate office might be worth a try.
I had to do something similar recently for a friend who died, and had property on the Isle of Man, but had shares which had to be dealt with by English Probate!
I knew of a similar case a couple of years ago but in reverse, and we too discovered that there was no reciprocal probate arrangement between England and the Isle of Man. Maybe England and Scotland (and Northern Ireland) have that arrangement because they are part of the United Kingdom, but the Isle of Man doesn't because it isn't.