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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: eaasland on Thursday 26 July 18 17:01 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I am looking for an individual, Peter Venn, who shows up in the 1861 census. He is living at the home of William Hatton, a millwright, who owns the Millwrights Arms. Both William Hatton's home and his pub, the Millwright Arms, are located at 7 Russell Street, in Newport on the Isle of Wight. Russell Street was re-named Orchard Street in late 1861.
I believe the Peter Venn, also a millwright, who is living with William Hatton is my great-great grandfather, Peter Paul Louis Venn (PPLV). The 1861 Peter Venn was born in 1824, in Italy (according to the census). My great-great grandfather, PPLV, as far as I have been able to determine, does not show up in any records prior to his marriage to Elizabeth Dyer, in Andover, Hampshire, in 1863. The marriage registration for PPLV and Elizabeth Dyer shows that PPLV was born in 1832 (not 1824) and records PPLV's father as Joseph Venn, a farmer.
The problem is that PPLV, when he appears in the 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses, states that he was born in 1832 and in Drury Lane, London.
There is a family rumour that that family was originally from France and spelt the surname Venné, but I have never been able to confirm this. However, based on the 1861 Peter Venn, born in 1824, in Italy, could PPLV actually have been born in Italy, in 1824. I have not been able to find a Peter Venn, millwright, born in 1824, in Italy in the 1841 or 1851 censuses, or any others for that matter.
Well, all this to say that I am wondering if there might be some way to find our more about the 1861 Peter Venn (b. 1824, in Italy) living in Newport on the Isle of Wight?
My thinking is that the 1861 Peter Venn could be my great-great grandfather, and that he came to England from Italy. He may have been been a journeyman millwright (if such a thing existed at that time), which might explain how he ended up in Andover. He may have lied about his age and place of birth when he met Elizabeth Dyer (maybe not to her, but at least when the census enumerator came around, or other authorities).
I do not have any issues with PPLV and his life after 1863, as that part of my family tree I have researched and have no issues with. It's just me wanting to know how he got to England and from where.
Well, I know that this might be tricky to research, but thank you very, very much for any help with this, it is very much appreciated.
Erik Aasland
Ottawa, Canada
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What age and occupation is shown for PPLV on the 1863 marriage cert
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I see that he was recorded as a 32 yr old millwright, of Andover, on his marriage at Andover Independent Chapel on 8 August 1863.
Witnesses: Joseph Dyer, Kate Bartlett.
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Seems likely it's the same person as 1861 given the occupation
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Hi there,
Sorry, should have noted that. They married August 8, 1863, in the Independent Chapel in East Street, in Andover. He is a bachelor, age 32, millwright. His father is Joseph Venn, a farmer. Elizabeth Venn (nee Dyer) would have a few months pregnant with their first child, Joseph Robert Venn (b. Dec. 26, 1863).
Thank you.
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Joseph Dyer was Elizabeth's brother, and Kate Bartlett lived just up the street from Elizabeth, so perhaps a life-long friend.
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So after marriage (to summarise) he appears as follows:
1871: Peter P L Venn, 39, ag lab b London
1881: Peter Venn, 49, turner in wood b London - Drury Lane
1891: Peter Venn, 59, wood turner b London, Drury Lane
1901: Peter Paul Venn, 69, single (!), carpenter, b London (visiting married daughter Alice Millbourne)
1904: Death as Peter Paul Louis Venn, 71, Jun qtr 1904 Hampstead.
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Hi there, that looks right. His wife, Elizabeth Dyer, passes away in 1901 and he moves in with their daughter, Alice Milbourne (nee Venn). He passes away in 1904 at the home of his other daughter, Annie Eady (nee Venn).
I'm just not sure why he's been so difficult to find before 1863, which leads me to believe that he is likely the Peter Venn, millwright, living in Newport on the Isle of Wight. If so, then he's from Italy, but how of course did he end up in England from Italy, and why of course did he feel the need to lie about his place of birth and age, both when he married and in the censuses.
Sigh...
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Guesswork only. His 1861 details may have been provided to the enumerator by somebody else in the household if Peter was at work at that time
However - that doesn’t explain why he can’t be found in earlier censuses??
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You are right, it's just guesswork on my part. Plus he seems to have a lot of names compared to most at that time, which also leaves me guessing about his past.
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Very odd! I am inclined to agree that he is likely to be the same person you have found in 1861 - but which set of information about him is reliable (if any)?
The 1861 information is given in the context of his being one of several lodgers in the household. This usually comes with a bit of a health warning - the householder filling in the form may not have known him very well and could have got the wrong end of the stick (e.g. he speaks a bit of Italian therefore born in Italy?).
Post-marriage information is at least consistent, and comes from the horse's mouth as it were. But did he reduce his age in order to close the gap with his wife Elizabeth? And where was he before 1861, if born in London?
I see from an online tree that there are surviving photos of him - are these dated, and does his appearance in them assist with what his correct age is likely to have been?
Drury Lane would have been a rather "colourful" area in the 1830s (and a slum). If he was indeed born there, his childhood may be have spent in difficult circumstances.
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Hi, yes, very odd. The picture is from an original I have. It's of PPLV and his sons, and they are all grown in it, making the it likely from the 1880s or 90s. One thing of note though is that they tended to have darker complexions and hair. They weren't very tall, in fact quite short. In fact, one of the sons, his nickname was Darkie because he had a darker complexion than the other sons. Again, this is guesswork, but they looked more continental if I can say that, more southern European maybe?
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Tere is a description of the Millwright Arms from an article on it I found a few year back , see https://www.wightwash.org.uk/pdf/Autumn2002.pdf - pages 10 and 11).
"The rare picture above is a small section of a larger photograph of Newport taken from
the air in 1932 and shows the area around the junction between South Street, Church Litten
and Town Lane. The Prince of Wales pub can be seen clearly with its new exterior of
mock Tudor cladding, but now look across the road opposite to what today is a public car
park. There stands the Millwrights Arms facing into a ramshackle courtyard with little
terrace houses all around. See how Orchard Street sits in the shade and grave stones
stand in Church Litten graveyard on the lower right of the picture.
By the time this photograph was taken, the Millwright Arms had been closed for
a quarter of a century but its memory lived on as a notorious public house of ill repute.
Newport in the late 18th century had had many inns that had a certain unsavoury character
and this old inn plied its trade amongst the slums that have since been cleared away.
It had several names before settling on the Millwrights Arms including the Flower Pot,
Rum Puncheon and Rose & Crown. It was also apparently the home of bogus cripples, blind men and other unfortunate beggars, who quickly relinquished their various “ailments” once inside its hospitable doors.
It lasted until 1905 when it was closed after approximately two hundred years of existence.
Some little snippets of history remain to give a flavour of its life.
Hampshire Telegraph 23rd October 1820
Lot 1. “ The Rum Puncheon”. A large and roomy dwelling house, situate in
South Street, formerly known by the name of Rum Puncheon, now used as a private
house, in the occupation of Mr. Benjamin Davies and his under-tenants.
The house comprises two rooms in front, the back ditto, four good chambers,
and two rooms in attic, with a large store near adjoining with useful out-buildings.
A messuage, heretofore a public house called the Flower Pot, since the Millwright
Arms, lately called the Rum Puncheon, and since called the Rose &
Crown (1/2 place of ground) in Newport, on north side of South Street, late in occupation
of Thomas Davies and since of William Rose, bounded on east by
lands of Read Taylor, bricklayer, on west by lands of William Clarke and on
south by South Street.
The above undated deed gets the location completely wrong by having both the north
side and the south side of the building facing South Street but presumably Thomas Davies
is Benjamin Davies son and this places the deed 20 or 30 years after the 1820 Hampshire
Telegraph advertisement.
Going further back in time to 1805, Phineas Board, a young band-master on board Nelson’s
flagship, the Victory, writes to his mother at the Sign of the Millwrights Arms, on
the 25th August whilst the British fleet were waiting for the French fleet to come out to
battle.
Dear Mother, This comes with my fond love to you, hoping these few lines to you
will find you all well, as it leaves me at present, thank God. This is the third letter hi
wrought to you, and hi am very oneasy because hi dont know whether you get my half
pay because hi sent my Will and power to you and hi shant be happy untill hi know.
So send me an answer as quick as possable. We expect the French fleet out every day.
Dear mother, hi think hi made my fortune with the rich prisoner we have taken, so hi
shall be able to do something for you all very shortly. God bless you all.
Phineas.
The actual Battle of Trafalgar took place on 21st October 1805, young Phineas’s fate is
unknown. A hundred years later the inn closed and the door on another chapter of Newport’s
history swung shut.
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HI there,
Here is a picture of PPLV and his sons. I think he is standing, at left. He looks like the eldest person in the picture.
Erik
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I’d have thought the gentleman seated in the centre is likely to be the senior one?
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Yes, me too, I've debated over and over again, as to which on is older. The one seated to his left is my great-grandfather, Peter Louis Venn (1865-1932). The other seat man is Albert Edward Venn who had a long career in the Royal Navy. He is the one that was called Darkie.
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Leaving aside appearance, it seems to me likely that a photographer would naturally have arranged a “father and sons” composition with the father in the central (dominant) position and the sons surrounding him.
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That's a very good point, and makes good sense. That tells then that he is likely the one in the middle.
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For what it is worth I suggest the photo supports a birthdate closer to 1831-32 (as per marriage and later censuses) than 1824 (as per the 1861). To my eye he does not look 40+ years older than his sons.
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That's great. The question I suppose now is how does one try to find a baptism record for someone born in Drury Lane? That might be my next post.
Thanks so much for the great comments!
Erik
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London is pretty good for online baptism records - as long as the person was baptised in the Church of England (see especially the excellent London Metropolitan Archives collection on Ancestry, as well as e.g. Westminster Baptisms on Findmypast).
However not everyone was baptised, and if Peter had an Italian or otherwise southern European parent any baptism may well have been Catholic. I note that he didn’t marry in the Church of England (the marriage was in an Independent Chapel). His names Peter Paul Louis would have been an unusual combination in England at that time, but Pier Paolo is a well-used combination in Italy - Luigi is the Italian version of Louis.
There are some Catholic baptisms coming online (both Ancestry and Findmypast have some) but they are far less likely to have been digitised than Church of England ones, due in part to the historic reluctance of the Catholic church to make its registers available for digitisation. I would think it unlikely that many Catholic records survive from as early as the 1830s, when Catholics in England were only just getting used to the abolition of systemic discrimination against them by the Catholic Emancipation Act 1829. Worship is likely to have been mostly in ad hoc settings, rather than formal churches and chapels at that stage (though others will no doubt know more than I do about all of this - I am no expert on Catholic family history).
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Although we are of course deep in speculation territory about an Italian/Catholic connection, here is a bit more on surviving early Catholic records.
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/England_Catholic_Church_Records,_Registers,_Births,_Baptisms,_Confirmations_(National_Institute)
The Sardinian (Embassy) Chapel in Lincoln’s Inn Fields would have been a short walk from Drury Lane.
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Thanks so much, that looks like a great place to start! There is a mystery here that I'd love to solve!
Erik