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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Daonnachd on Friday 27 July 18 12:10 BST (UK)
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Hi,
My father and his sister were attending this school in 1911. They are on the 1911 census as boading with a Margaret Chalmers, Rumdewan, Kettle, which is I understand the same road as the school.
The attached school records show Margaret Chalmers as their guardian. Does anyone know how this might have come about? Both children were born in Leith, so I don't understand how they ended up in Fife.
Their mother Maria was in the Seafield (Edinburgh) Workhouse in 1911, their father having died in 1907, and their stepfather having died in 1910. before. She had two daughters by her second husband, both of whom died in the same workhouse, so I understand why my father and his sister would have been sent away, but by whom and why to Fife?
Also can anyone please look at the attached and tell me what school is referred to in the document for Christina (Kirsty) and on Lindsay's, what the reason for leaving is. I note they both left on the same date, but the reasons for discharge seem different.
Thanks for any ideas,
Lindsey
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For Lindsay I see Rumdewan and the latter school is Freuchie
For Christine I see Rumdewan, Cults Primary and "left the district"
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Thank you Shanghipanda,
I worked out Freuchie, though don't understand why he would have moved there, and now you say it, I can see Christina's first school was Cults, but Cults Primary is in Aberdeen. (Unless there's another Cults that I'm not aware of.)
Their Grandparents on their mother's side did come from Aberdeen, but I am yet to find any reason why Christina would have gone there.
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Their mother may have had to go out & work after her husband died. It makes sense for the children to have been brought up by their grandparents. You should try & view the school admission records for Cults.
regards,
flst.
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There is indeed a small parish of Cults in Fife.
Wikipedia: Cults, Fife is a small parish in the centre of the County of Fife, Scotland. It lies mainly in "the Howe of Fife," and about 4½ miles SW of Cupar. The parish is about 2⅓ miles long and 1⅓ miles wide.
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I didn't realise there was another Cults! Thank you I'll look it up.
It would make sense if they were with grandparents, but they, and no other members of the family had ever lived in Fife as far as I can make out, and by 1900 they had either died, or were living in Edinburgh, so I can't understand why the children were in Fife.
I can't find ANY family in Fife, and I've checked on the lady they boarded with, and she seems to be no relation at all. I don't think she could be a family friend as she lived in Kettle all her life.
It seems my father lived in Fife from the age of 4 until his mid to late teens so probably didn't really know his mother as she died when he was 10. :(
My dad never spoke about his family except for his sister who he clearly loved. If asked about others in his family, or where he grew up, he would offer very short ambiguous answers. Indeed I was always under the impression he grew up in Leith or Portobello.
I know Christina ended up in Leith by 1925, and my Dad lived in Colinton in 1927, which suggests to me they had no ties in Fife.
I can't help thinking they might have been taken away - just like Boy Georges Grandmother.
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Would these be relations, from VRs?
PATON ALEXANDER
Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN RUMDEWAN, KETTLE
1915
VR010100061-
PATON WILLIAM
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN RUMDEWAN, KETTLE
1915
VR010100061-
Annie
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PATON ALEXANDER
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN RUMDEWAN, KETTLE
1920
VR010100066-
Annie
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PATON ALEXANDER
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN RUMDEWAN KETTLE
1925
VR010100071-
Annie
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PATON ALEXANDER
Tenant
HOUSE AND GARDEN RUMDEWAN KETTLE
1930
VR010100076-
1935 Alexander gone from Kettle but there's this one still around from earlier yrs?
PATON HERBERT
Tenant
HOUSE AND GARDEN KETTLE BRIDGE, KETTLE
1935
VR010100081-
If you look up the VRs on SP there's quite a few Patons around Kettle area in different yrs
Annie
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Patons at Cults too
PATON DAVID
Inhabitant Occupier
HOUSE CULTS FARM, CULTS (FIFE)
1930
VR010100076-
Worth tracing some back from those areas to see if/where there's a connection?
Annie
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Hi Rosinish,
I'm not sure... Their dad had no sisters, and only one brother to survive infancy - and he was an engineer on the railway in India and South Africa, so they couldn't be uncles.
I'll check to see if they could be more distant relatives though.
Thanks for the idea!
Lindsey
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1901 James Paton 57 Railway Platelayer living in Kettle born Kettle living in Public House with...
All surname Paton
Mary 45
Elisabeth Scott 17
Jane 11
Richard 9
John 7
Francis 5
Williamina 6 Mo
Annie
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1901 Jane H Paton 4 born Dunbar, Haddington (Edinburgh)
Can't see the relationship (may be on the original) but with John Paton 72 born Largo, Fife, living at Cult Limeanks House
There does seem a connection with where your ancestors were (I think)?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
I will check it out - though have since got sidetracked on someone else's brickwall!!.
The thing is that my Paton side were from Edinburgh and before that (c 1810) Stewarton, Ayrshire. I haven't yet found anyone who moved to Fife, but I'll keep looking.
My Grandmother's maiden name was McKenzie, and her mother's name was Urquhart - it's they who came from Aberdeen (c 1840) and before that (c 1800) Banff, Ross-shire or Morayshire.
A couple of people did end up in Dundee, but that's going back a bit (50 years or more).
I'm beginning to think my dad and aunt were 'boarded out' from the Workhouse their mother ended up in.
At some point I'll contact Children 1st to see if they can shed any light on it.
Thanks for your help,
Lindsey
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I think I've worked it out!
After a day of working through many different combinations and possibilities, I found that my Grandmother's, eldest sister's in-laws were from Fife, some actually from Kettle and/or Cults. So while I haven't found a direct family link, I can't help thinking the extended family must have known the woman my Dad and Aunt moved in with.
Still no a happy outcome, but at least my Grandmother would have know where her children were going to.
Just goes to show that persistence pays off in this game!
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Glad you found a possible connection to the areas mentioned as it will make you feel a bit happier thinking your father & aunt possibly weren't on their own among total strangers.
Out of curiosity, what were the surnames of your g/mothers' sisters-in-law?
Annie
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Her sister Isabella married Alexander McGregor who was originally from Earlsferry. His Dad Daniel, was also born in Earlsferry, and his mother Mary Mitchell was from Cupar (they had all moved to Leith by this point). Mary Mitchell's mother, Christian Haxton was from Kettle.
The thing I found really interesting was that Christian Haxton's mother was Margaret Milley, and the woman who my Dad and Aunt lived with was born Margaret Millie Rollo.
I originally thought the middle name 'Millie' was the girl's name, but am now thinking she was named after Margaret Milley, or at least another Margaret Milley from the same family. It just seems a little bit too much of a coincidence to me.
Having lived in a small town, I know how easy it is to get to know, or at least know of, just about everyone else in the area. It must be even more true if you were born there.
I do feel a bit happier thinking they weren't total strangers. Perhaps too, some of the locals were extended family members and looked out for them a bit.
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Lindsey,
It makes me feel a wee bit better too as I was feeling as if I was a bit persistent with the possibilities even if the Paton connection doesn't fit with the "1901 Jane H Paton 4 born Dunbar, Haddington (Edinburgh)" which looked like a possible.
That wee girl actually died in 1904 if I recall correctly as I decided to try & chase the family but was halted by her death & no mms attached i.e. I thought I would just leave it.
It would (if you were interested enough) be good to trace back the ones you found, that's the things I do (maybe I'm just a nosey parker) ;D
I just like to know who fits where & how ???
They parts of Fife are tiny (I live not far from there)!
Annie
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Her sister Isabella married Alexander McGregor who was originally from Earlsferry. His Dad Daniel, was also born in Earlsferry, and his mother Mary Mitchell was from Cupar (they had all moved to Leith by this point). Mary Mitchell's mother, Christian Haxton was from Kettle.
The thing I found really interesting was that Christian Haxton's mother was Margaret Milley, and the woman who my Dad and Aunt lived with was born Margaret Millie Rollo.
I originally thought the middle name 'Millie' was the girl's name, but am now thinking she was named after Margaret Milley, or at least another Margaret Milley from the same family. It just seems a little bit too much of a coincidence to me.
Lindsey,
Can you give ages/dates etc. for the above info. please with parentage (from marriages)?
Annie
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HAXTON WILLIAM Inhabitant Occupier
HOUSE ORKIE MILN, KETTLE
1905
VR010100051-
HAXTON ELIZABETH MISS Tenant Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN BANKTON PARK KETTLE
1915
VR010100061-
Isabella/Elizabeth were often interchangeable!
Annie
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Hi Annie,
Yes I will dig a bit deeper, I like to do that too, I just get on a bit of a roll. Sometimes when I've found someone I feel a bit responsible about finding out who they were.
I thought the towns and villages in the area were probably very small. I often check out the historic population figures of places to give me an idea.
Streetview is useful too, Cults, Freuchie and Kettle look pretty small even now, and very pretty, though I imagine winter can be a tad harsh! :D
When I visit Scotland again I want to make to effort to get to Fife, I didn't last time, I spent all my time finding all the places various members of my family lived in Leith and the rest of Edinburgh.
Lindsey
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"Cults, Freuchie and Kettle look pretty small even now"
They're what we call little villages rather than 'towns' i.e. small communities.
Nothing like cities i.e. Edinburgh & still very 'country' rather than 'town' with no worries of where to park, how long for. cost etc....all free & no worries on 'one-way' streets etc...very relaxed in all aspects also some lovely little country pubs which do Bar Lunches dotted around.
Annie
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This one near Kettle Primary School
HAXTON MARGARET MISS Tenant Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN BANKTON PARK KETTLE
1920
VR010100066-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mfn/
Annie
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Isabella McKenzie b 1864 St Nicholas Aberdeen and Alexander McGregor b 1859 Earlsferry married in Leith.
Alexanders parents - Daniel McGregor b 1835 Earlsferry and Mary Mitchell b Cupar 1823
Mary Mitchell's parents - Alexander (not sure yet where & when born) Christian Haxton b 1813 Kettle
Christian Haxton's parents - John Haxton b ??1790ish?? Kettle and Margaret Milley ??1790ish?? Markinch
The lady my Dad & Aunt lived with - Margaret Millie Rollo, was born in Kettle 1846 parents Andrew Lindsay Rollo, and Janet Anderson.
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"Cults, Freuchie and Kettle look pretty small even now"
They're what we call little villages rather than 'towns' i.e. small communities.
Nothing like cities i.e. Edinburgh & still very 'country' rather than 'town' with no worries of where to park, how long for. cost etc....all free & no worries on 'one-way' streets etc...very relaxed in all aspects also some lovely little country pubs which do Bar Lunches dotted around.
Annie
I live in Devon now, not in a village, but there are plenty of villages around surrounded by moors, Exmoor & Dartmoor, so very pretty countryside too, and they sometimes get cut off in winter, especially if the coastal ones flood.
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Lindsey,
I was cut off from reality with the bad snow we had in March this year, knee deep & couldn't go anywhere in my car, no deliveries to shops I could walk to i.e. grateful for tins & packets of food to keep me going ;D
You will love the scenery etc. & very laid back compared with city life, traffic jams etc. :P
Just incase I forget...
St. Andrews University have hoards of info. on different things so it may be worth your while at a later date, sending them an email with any questions or use their search page(s) listed on left here;
https://pacific.st-andrews.ac.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=Search.tcl
https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/research/
Annie
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Thank you Annie, I'm sure I'd love Fife, and I will check out the Uni website at some point.
Off to bed now! :) :)
p.s. staff at Exeter Hospital had to walk into work it got so bad here! Even here our town was cut off for a couple of days - the main road had kids sledging on it!!! ;D
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My father and his sister were attending this school in 1911. They are on the 1911 census as boading with a Margaret Chalmers, Rumdewan, Kettle, which is I understand the same road as the school.
The attached school records show Margaret Chalmers as their guardian. Does anyone know how this might have come about? Both children were born in Leith, so I don't understand how they ended up in Fife.
Their mother Maria was in the Seafield (Edinburgh) Workhouse in 1911, their father having died in 1907, and their stepfather having died in 1910. before. She had two daughters by her second husband, both of whom died in the same workhouse, so I understand why my father and his sister would have been sent away, but by whom and why to Fife?
I think that is the key. If their father and stepfather had both died and their mother was in the workhouse, she must have applied to a parochial board in Edinburgh for relief, which means that for some reason she was unable to support herself or her surviving children.
In such cases it was usual for the parochial board to foster children out, not necessarily within its own parish. Sometimes children were sent to board quite some distance from their home. Sometimes, but not always, they were boarded with a relative.
As far as I know the full registers of the Edinburgh parochial board(s) have not survived, but some of the records do exist, and it just might be worth asking if there might be anything about these children. Start with Edinburgh City Archives http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20249/edinburgh_city_archives and download their family history subject guide which contains a list of the surviving Poor Law (parochial board) records they have.
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My father and his sister were attending this school in 1911. They are on the 1911 census as boading with a Margaret Chalmers, Rumdewan, Kettle, which is I understand the same road as the school.
The attached school records show Margaret Chalmers as their guardian. Does anyone know how this might have come about? Both children were born in Leith, so I don't understand how they ended up in Fife.
Their mother Maria was in the Seafield (Edinburgh) Workhouse in 1911, their father having died in 1907, and their stepfather having died in 1910. before. She had two daughters by her second husband, both of whom died in the same workhouse, so I understand why my father and his sister would have been sent away, but by whom and why to Fife?
I think that is the key. If their father and stepfather had both died and their mother was in the workhouse, she must have applied to a parochial board in Edinburgh for relief, which means that for some reason she was unable to support herself or her surviving children.
In such cases it was usual for the parochial board to foster children out, not necessarily within its own parish. Sometimes children were sent to board quite some distance from their home. Sometimes, but not always, they were boarded with a relative.
As far as I know the full registers of the Edinburgh parochial board(s) have not survived, but some of the records do exist, and it just might be worth asking if there might be anything about these children. Start with Edinburgh City Archives http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20249/edinburgh_city_archives and download their family history subject guide which contains a list of the surviving Poor Law (parochial board) records they have.
Thank you Forfarian,
This does make total sense. It is quite possible the woman they lived with was unknown to the family, but I have established that the extended family had close links to the Cults & Kettle area, so they might have known her - or at least known of her - I guess I'll never know for sure.
I will check out the link you've given me re: the Parochial Board.
Thanks again,
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For the avoidance of duplication, this is the other thread on the same family
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=797649.0