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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: skyshot1990 on Monday 30 July 18 16:18 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I have just started researching my family tree. My Granfather Joseph Henry Wilsher was born 1929 in Nottingham. His father was meant to be also called Joseph Wilsher, who lived and died in Nottingham. The story told to my dad by Joseph Wilsher(Joseph Henry Wilsher dad), was my family were hawkers and before that we were gypsies. My dad on a visit to Nottingham was shown a photo of a group of my ancestors next to a wooding horse drawn carriage when he was a kid.
The problem I have is my granddad left Nottingham in his teens because he joined the army, he then settled southwest UK. Other then this small bit of information, I have extremely little to go on, has any one come a cross much information with this family in Nottingham, or what is the best way to look in to this subject?
I have ordered my Grandads birth certificate and waiting for that at the moment.
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat, I can see a Joseph Wilsher b c 1866 Sheffield occ Hardware Hawker in Nottingham 1911 married to a Lizzie b c 1866?
Keyboard86
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I've come across a number of Wilsher family's in Nottingham around 1800s, but I need my great granfathers information to confirm any thing or link family's. I was interested if there was gypsies around that area with the same name, I would think 1700s-1800s... I don't really know where to start with researching this subject matter?
I have tried looking up records of a Joseph Wilsher that could be my granddads dad but I draw blanks. I would believe if my granddad was born 1929 the father would be born around 1890-1910, the record I found for my granddad named the mothers name as Waddingham.
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Hi the same Joseph in 1901 b Sheffield is a Hawker living in Smiths Field, living in Caravan he has a son Joseph aged 18
Census ref RG13/3168/27/45
Keyboard86
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What are you using to find this, I have just joined ancestry and seem to not find any thing, am I doing some thing wrong?
My granddad would say there was a tradition of calling the first born boy Joseph.
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Hi again, in 1901, search for Joseph Wilshire b 1864 Sheffield living in Nottinghamshire, address on original with Ancestry.
Keyboard86
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Do you know if the Wilsher name changes a lot?? since I've been looking I seem to find many different spellings...
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Hi yes I do I think our Joseph b c 1866 Sheffield is a Willshaw in 1881 Sheffield
Keyboard86
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Hi in 1871 we have him with:-
Joseph Wilshaw 25
Maria 30
Joseph 6 b Yorkshire
Thomas 4
Fred 1
Residing in Brook End, Burrow Lane, Longdon, Staffordshire slept in Caravan or Tent along with others.
Census ref RG10/2918/84/12
Keyboard86
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Well I've had my granddads birth certified turn up,
my Great grandmother was called Laura Grogan formerly Waddingham and my Great granddad was Joesph Wilsher, he was a fruit hawker and they lived at 45 st peters street Nottingham.
When I looked 45 st peters street up, it seems to be on a industrial estate, any one know if there was a traveller camp there in 1929, also has any one come a cross this family??
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Hi
I received your private message, i will not be writing back to you in that way, its not personal, its just i attract some bizare people, i may have some references to the people you search for, i will put them on for you and all the other people who have an interest in the people you choose to write about
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Do you know if the Wilsher name changes a lot?? since I've been looking I seem to find many different spellings...
Yeppers. Back then, many people were, still, barely literate and the clerk writing their given names might have spelled it almost phonetically, according to what they were hearing.
That's why, when I checked The Book of Bob (http://www.robertdawson.co.uk/A-Romany-in-the-Family_A13IA9.aspx Sadly, now out of print) I was content to find " Wilshaw / Willshire / Wiltshire " listed. I knew it was you :)
Bob lists 'it' as a name given by Gypsys from 1801 and still in use. He's come across it in: BRK, CAM, DBY, DUR, Midlands, NTH, OXF.
Being a Hawker, and living in a tent or wagon, with that name? I'd dare to suggest his credentials are about as solid as they get! ;D
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Hi again, I can see a possible birth of a Laura Waddingham in 1904 Nottingham, and a possible marriage to a John Grogan in 1923 Derby, but when/where did she marry Joseph Wilshire?
Keyboard86
PS Odd to have an address of 45, St Peters Road?
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Hi again, I can see a possible birth of a Laura Waddingham in 1904 Nottingham, and a possible marriage to a John Grogan in 1923 Derby, but when/where did she marry Joseph Wilshirw?
Keyboard86
Hello again, from what I can see, Laura died 2 years after the birth of Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929, She still had the name Laura Grogan, It would seem she never divorced John Grogan. In the next weeks I will purchase all the certificates for her. It dose open up questions to why or how she ended up with my great granddad Joseph Wilsher.
My granddad always believed his mother to had died at child birth, Joseph Henry 1929 was not even aware of her name. My father was surprised when I told him it...
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Hi again, I see Joseph H b 1929 was also registered as Joseph H Grogan mmn Waddingham, also births 1924 to 1928 Nottingham Grogan/Waddingham.
Keyboard86
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The information I have of now, for this family is...
Father-Joseph Wilsher, carpet hawker 1928, fruit hawker 1929, Birth/Death Nottingham date unknown
Mother-Laura Grogan Formerly Waddingham, Birth 1904/1905-Death 1931 Nottingham, Married 1923 Derby John Grogan
Son-Joseph Wilsher, Birth 1928-Death 1928, 5 months old Nottingham
Son-Joseph Henry Wilsher, Birth 1929 Nottingham - Death 2009
Addresses-1928, 22 piper street Nottingham
-1929, 45 st Peters Street Nottingham
The only other useful information is after the Death of Laura Grogan. Joseph Wilsher found another woman that they called Maggie, this women lived with and looked after my granddad Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929, My Granddad and father visited her a number of times in Nottingham. This women Maggie stayed with my great granddad till he died... She was also the main person who told stories of traveller roots to my granddad as he was growing up and she held photos.
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Hi again, I see Joseph H b 1929 was also registered as Joseph H Grogan mmn Waddingham, also births 1924 to 1928 Nottingham Grogan/Waddingham.
Keyboard86
From what I could see there was a Joseph H Waddingham in her family. I have the full birth and death certificates for the 2 Joseph Wilsher's 1928 and 1929... Both being born by Laura and the father being Joseph Wilsher. I will look in to that tho just in case or maybe link it as family to her. That dose seem interesting tho.
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Hi again, Joseph H Grogan and Joseph H Wilshire have identical volume and page numbers September qtr Nottingham v7b page 618
Keyboard86
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Hi again, I see Joseph H b 1929 was also registered as Joseph H Grogan mmn Waddingham, also births 1924 to 1928 Nottingham Grogan/Waddingham.
Keyboard86
I've just looked it up, the dates match both the two kids which seems extremely strange, were you able to register children more than once in those days ??
I found a burial register for Joseph Wilsher 1928, on it the name of person buried was Joseph Wilsher. I may have to purchases these certificates and work out what is going on here, it all seems extremely odd.
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Hi again, the Joseph Wilshire registered June qtr 1928 v 7b 600 was also identical to a Joseph Grogan in 1928?
Keyboard86
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Hi again, the Joseph Wilshire registered June qtr 1928 v 7b 600 was also identical to a Joseph Grogan in 1928?
Keyboard86
Yes they both seem to be a perfect match for register numbers but have a different last name, which seem extremely strange to say the least... This Laura Waddingham has become a person of interest, all documents I have looked over upto now have stated the name Joseph Wilsher, so this Grogan name seems extremely weird.
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Hi again, cannot at present locate the death in 1928 Nottingham of a Joseph Wilshire on GRO Index, but located one for Joseph Grogan Sept qtr 1928 Nottingham v7b 321 aged 0?
Keyboard86
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Hi again, cannot at present locate the death in 1928 Nottingham of a Joseph Wilshire on GRO Index, but located one for Joseph Grogan Sept qtr 1928 Nottingham v7b 321 aged 0?
Keyboard86
Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929 died in Somerset and is my granddad, he died in 2009... The Joseph Wilsher 1928, Died 1928 at 5 months old. I have the birth and death certificates for both kids and even have the burial register for the Joseph Wilsher 1928.
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Hi again, what is the volume/page number of the Joseph Wilsher Death 1928 was it 7b 321?
Keyboard86
:) After altering the surname to WILSHER he has same volume/page number as Joseph Grogan.
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I think I may of found the first real bit of information on Joseph Wilsher,
1939 England and Wales Register, Schedule Number 363, 8 storer street Nottingham
There is a Joseph Wilshire-born 1907-Hawker, Margaret Chesman-born 1907-Hospital Cleaner, and what seems to be a 3rd person blacked out. I believe this 3rd person to be my granddad Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929.
I am sending off the death certificate next week, too see if I am able to get the blacked out information removed, I believe this to be the family because the dates fit, area is about right and Maggie could be a abbreviation for Margaret.
If this turns out to be correct, there are still many questions unanswered but it will be a solid lead...
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I've found news paper reports matching both the Joseph Wilsher and Joseph Henry Wilsher, Living at a 8 storer street Nottingham, the birth age for Joseph Wiltshire would match Joseph Wilsher 1929, It seems even the news papers use Wilsher or Wiltshire, where as on the census it has Wilshire. The last name seems to change at the drop of a hat.
This would date Joseph Wilsher Birth atb 1904-1907 and death still unknown.
... I met a few pals at the cricket match and we celebrated, the magistrates at the Nottingham Guildhall were told to-day by Joseph Wilsher, 39, a hawker, of 8, Fairholme-terrace, who had been found lying on the pavement in Bridlesmith-gate ...
02 July 1946 - Nottingham Evening Post - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
... garage office which had , r , an, acked. Behind a desk, it * alleged at Nottingham Guildhall. ,?'*?■ he found 18-year-old Joseph Henry Wiltshire, of 8 Fairham Storer-street. Nottingham. Wiltshire was charged with break and entering the garage and realm ...
30 July 1947 - Nottingham Evening Post - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
... the companionship of thieves. REFUSED TO QUIT INN Nottingham Hawker's Costly Half - Holiday Joseph Wiltshire (34), hawker, 8. Fairholme - terrace, Storer - street, Nottingham was fined £1 at Nottingham Police Court yesterday for refusing to quit lice ...
12 October 1938 - Nottingham Journal - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
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Hi
This could be the two Wiltshires that you are talking about, Old Joe sounds just like one of the old Barrow Boys, Street Traders, Hawking Fruit, I have records of other People around Nottingham, with the same names that you write about, local Wiltshires, in my researchers, in Town Village and City i have come across Wilshaws Willshires Wilshers Welshires who are just locals, these two Josephs below are quite tame, also they live at the same address, for some time to, you said the Wiltshires you write about were three generations out of the travelling times, there are families of local Wiltshires I have researched, the people you write about may also be just locals, you say you have read my posts, in them you will of read of many Josephs and Henrys, they are all around Camp sites and moving about often in big Family units with several wagons, some have shops in Nottingham as Marine Store Dealers, if you can connect back to these people that woman of mystery who said these two Josephs below came out of the older travelling Wiltshires may well be telling the truth, but again they are well tame especially the older Joseph, but like you say three generations is a long time, you never know i am sure you have much to tell, you have to be careful tho about what somone is suposed to have said yeares ago, there are people out there who tottaly fabricate storys, twist them for all kinds of reasons, just be careful, trust in the truth, its a great story, you have worked hard and collected much information, you are doing a fine job, you say you was never told anything about anything, evan if you find things, evan if things that you research turn out to be true, true again, it will always be just written records of the past, how will you ever understand, evan the greatest of researchers in this time as well as the past fail right at that moment when they think their hands are full.
Nottingham Press
There is a Joseph Wiltshire who was 34 years of age in 1938, he is stated as being a Hawker, he lived at Fairholme- terrace, Storer-Street, Nottingham, several times by now he was up for drunkenness, in 1947 at 8 Fairham Terrace, Storer-Street, he is stated as being a Street Trader, charged with obstruction with his hand barrow, also in the same year at 8 Fairholme- terrace, Storer-Street and most likely Josephs Son, is the one and only Joseph Henry Wiltshire, 18 years of age that i think maybe could be the person you write about, he is up for breaking and entering, in 1936 at a different address of Page Street, there is a man known as a Fruiterer, he was found drunk in his car and trailer, he goes by the name of Joseph Wiltshire, in 1946 Joseph Wilsher is said to be 39, known as a Hawker, living at 8 Fairholme- terrace, Storer-Street he was found flat out lying on the pavement in Bridle-smith Gate, and had to be taken to hospital, the Magistrate had a laugh at the situation and let him of, commenting,
and I understand it wasnt it strong enough, i have to say the address of Storer Street is bang on the money, so many of my Mothers relations lived and died around that area, some of the greatest ever to set foot in this City of mine, real ledgends, my Mother was born but a stones throw away, if you would like to know about this place have a look at this web site, there are many photos of the area. https://stannswellroad.weebly.com/hawksworth-st-storer-st-to-clarence-st.html
You write of a connection to Derby, i have read stories of these Grogans below connected to Nottingham.
Derby Press
A much wrote about family the Grogans, they seem mainly to live around Goodwin Street, if you read many of the reports most will say several numbers on Goodwin Street, or back of an house on Goodwin Street, in 1950 john Grogan 56 years old is living in a caravan, in 1935 john Grogan is 41 living at Bates Lodging House, Nuns-Street, and stated as being a scissor grinder, in 1931 john Grogan is 29 and stated as being a cutler of no fixed abode, there are some very bad crimes that are talked about over the years in Derby.
Nottingham Press
There is a John Grogan, 28, Hawker of the famouse nortoriouse Red Lion-Street, Narrow-Marsh, Nottingham, again in 1930 at the same address yet this time they give the house number as 73, and the age of 30, again from the same address in 1931 he is said to be 27 and the trade of a cutler, it is stated that he has been before the courts 30 times and is a dangerous man, ln 1933 John Grogan is said to be 37 years of age, described as a poacher now living at Barker Gate, in the Seven Stars Lodging House, he is up for Police assault, in the paper it is stated that John Grogan is one of the most violent men in Nottingham,
in 1950 Samuel Grogan, 25, a dealer of 142 Glaisdale-drive was charged with stealing coal then a year later he beats up his wife plus his girlfriend be course the girlfriend would not porn the wifes wedding ring, in 1895 Arthur Grogan up for deserting his wife and not Paying maintenance,
again at the same address of 3 Plait Street in 1899 his title is that of a basket-maker.
Again these are just reported records, who everyone is and are any of them connected, i do not know, i am around Nottingham for all of my life and never have i heard of no one named Grogan, nor have any stories of the fruit hawking Wiltshires been passed down, you may well be right, you may well be wrong, i am sure you will do your best, the stage is yours.
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Hi again, what have you found re Margaret ( Maggie) Chesman b 1907 was she married?
Also interesting Chesman birth possibles 1936 Nottingham, a marriage in 1956 Nottingham to a Varley?
Keyboard86
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Hi again, what have you found re Margaret ( Maggie) Chesman b 1907 was she married?
Also interesting Chesman birth possibles 1936 Nottingham, a marriage in 1956 Nottingham to a Varley?
Keyboard86
Not a great deal, my aunty has a photo of her which I seen about 3 days ago, they all thought of her as their grandmother, with her bring Joseph Wilsher-1929 up... They all just called her Maggie, she ended up living with a women called Margo, she also was meant to had worked the market. Her relationship with Joseph Wilsher-1907 Atb is unknown.
Other then that she is mystery to me.
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8 Fairham Storer-street, Nottingham 1939... Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb, the red dot is not the house, some one sent me this map tho.
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Hi
This could be the two Wiltshire’s that you are talking about, Old Joe sounds just like one of the old Barrow Boys, Street Traders, Hawking Fruit, I have records of other People around Nottingham, with the same names that you write about, local Wiltshires, in my researchers, in Town Village and City i have come across Wilshaws Willshires Wilshers Welshires who are just locals, these two Josephs below are quite tame, also they live at the same address, for some time to, you said the Wiltshire’s you write about were three generations out of the travelling times, there are families of local Wiltshire’s I have researched, the people you write about may also be just locals, you say you have read my posts, in them you will of read of many Josephs and Henrys, they are all around Camp sites and moving about often in big Family units with several wagons, some have shops in Nottingham as Marine Store Dealers, if you can connect back to these people that woman of mystery who said these two Josephs below came out of the older travelling Wiltshire’s may well be telling the truth, but again they are well tame especially the older Joseph, but like you say three generations is a long time, you never know i am sure you have much to tell, you have to be careful tho about what somone is suposed to have said yeares ago, there are people out there who tottaly fabricate storys, twist them for all kinds of reasons, just be careful, trust in the truth, its a great story, you have worked hard and collected much information, you are doing a fine job, you say you was never told anything about anything, evan if you find things, evan if things that you research turn out to be true, true again, it will always be just written records of the past, how will you ever understand, evan the greatest of researchers in this time as well as the past fail right at that moment when they think their hands are full.
Every thing I have gone off in my research, is from my father the son of Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929.
Joseph Henry Wilsher-1929/my father stated seeing a black and white photo of so called traveller ancestors held by Maggie... Its believed to be 2-3 generations before my gran* father. Maggie was meant too of said the traveller ancestors were living in wooden caravans and would deal in carpets and horses.
That said Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb is mostly unknown even to my father. Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb was meant to be a heavy drinker, a hawker/barrel boy and be unable to read/write. His child hood is a total mystery, as for his father the only scrap of information I have, is there was meant to be a tradition of calling their first born boy Joseph, if that is true then I would believe Joseph Wilsher atb1907 father to also be called Joseph.
I have always been told stories growing up of my past being travellers, I want to bring truth to any or all of what I can find with facts. I have ordered a DNA ancestry kit, hoping this will shed more light on the subject. By the end of it all, I do not care the out come but want to know the unknown of my past.
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Hi again, it could be worthwhile looking at the marriage of Charles A Chesman to Margaret O'Brien March qtr 1929 Nottingham 7b 658 and the 1911 of a Maggie O'BRYAN aged 5 b Nottingham in Leicestershire.
Could be Maggie?
Keyboard86
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Any one come across this Joseph Wiltshire the Wardrobe Dealer ????
I discounted him in the past but one thing keeps jumping out at me-Occupation:Wardrobe Dealer. On the birth certificate of Joseph Wilsher 1929 and death certificate of Joseph Wilsher 1928, it states Laura Grogan formerly Waddingham occupation as a wardrobe dealer.
It has made me wonder, if Laura worked for the father of Joseph Wilsher atb 1907, Joseph Wiltshire the Wardrobe dealer still seems alive in 1925, Laura and Joseph 1907 atb had their first child in 1928. So its fair to believe he may still be alive and working at that time. Also from what I can see in news reports it has him as a hawker also.
When I get more free time I will have to look more in this area.
Name:
Joseph Wiltshire
Publication Year:
1925
Address:
6a G-edling street
Residence Place:
Nottinghamshire, England
Occupation:
Wardrobe Dealer
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Hi again, it could be worthwhile looking at the marriage of Charles A Chesman to Margaret O'Brien March qtr 1929 Nottingham 7b 658 and the 1911 of a Maggie O'BRYAN aged 5 b Nottingham in Leicestershire.
Could be Maggie?
Keyboard86
Could I ask just when "Maggie" died and under what surname, as I believe the Charles Alfred Chesman married the lady living with him in 1939 Nottingham in 1974, her name was Lilian/Lily Frearson?
Keyboard86
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Hi again, it could be worthwhile looking at the marriage of Charles A Chesman to Margaret O'Brien March qtr 1929 Nottingham 7b 658 and the 1911 of a Maggie O'BRYAN aged 5 b Nottingham in Leicestershire.
Could be Maggie?
Keyboard86
Could I ask just when "Maggie" died and under what surname, as I believe the Charles Alfred Chesman married the lady living with him in 1939 Nottingham in 1974, her name was Lilian/Lily Frearson?
Keyboard86
Hi,
Yesterday I was given a number of letters writing by a Margo, dated 1981-1993, this Margo is who Maggie ended up living with... Margo was meant to be her family, the letters talk about how Maggie was doing and general chat.
So I believe her to still be alive late 80s-90s.
I have sent a letter to the address in hopes the Margo is still alive and living in the same house, it's a long shot.
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:) Good idea to write to the address, I would point out that the father of Maggie O'bryan in 1911 Leicester was a Hawker
Keyboard86
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Hi the Margaret Chesman in 1939 was born 25th June 1907, their is a death of a Margaret Chesman born 25th June 1905 May 2002 Rotherham District, the Maggie O'Bryan in 1911 was aged 5?
Keyboard86
EDIT No do not like this possible as loads of Chesman's in Rotherham!
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Hi the Margaret Chesman in 1939 was born 25th June 1907, their is a death of a Margaret Chesman born 25th June 1905 May 2002 Rotherham District, the Maggie O'Bryan in 1911 was aged 5?
Keyboard86
EDIT No do not like this possible as loads of Chesman's in Rotherham!
Rotherham is the address for the Margo I sent a letter to... Seems like a fair bet that is the correct one. Can I ask where you fround the information?
Sounds like this Maggie lived a long life if that is correct, I have wondered if Margo is short for Margaret.
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Hi again, that death was found on Ancestry.
Keyboard86
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:) Hi again, in the letters did Margo not mention her surname whether married etc?
What was first line of address to which you sent your letter?
Keyboard86
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Hi
There is an older Joseph at Gedling street who must be the father to the rest of the later Josephs,
in the Nottingham Evening Post Joseph Willsher 27, Hawker of Gedling Street, was up before the courts on the 19 July 1930, he would be the father of Joseph Henry who lived with him when they were both at 8 Fairholme- terrace, Storer-Street, Joseph Henry you say went down the south and had a son Joseph, below may be the father of all of them his name to was Joseph he to is at Gedling Street he would be the father to the Joseph Willsher 27 listed above who inturn is the father to Joseph Henry who then is the father to the Joseph you talk of as being your relation.
Extract
Nottingham Evening Post Thursday 9 August 1923
Joseph alias (Jim) Wiltshire 50, of 6 Gedling Street described by the Police as a Poacher was up before the courts for assault.
A DERBY DISTURBANCE. NOTTM.
HAWKER HIS WEALTHY SONS-IN-LAW.
Nottingham 1919
A melee in the Derby Cattle Market on Friday, in which prisoner was rescued from custody and a
constable had to make use of his staff, had a sequel at the police-court to-day. Joseph Wiltshire, hawker, 6, Gedling-street, Nottingham, was fined 10s. assaulting Pc. Bristow, and for assaulting Special Constable H. A. Wallace (market superintendent), whom he struck several times on the face and body; while Alfred Smith, dealer, living in a van at Cotton-lane, was fined 7s. 6d. for fighting. Bristow apprehended Smith and his antagonist, whereupon Wiltshire (the father-in-law of the men) and others intervened and succeeded in getting one of the prisoners away. Wiltshire then ran off, but was stopped by Mr. Wallace who told the Bench that Wiltshire made a mad struggle for freedom. Wiltshire, against whom there were eight previous convictions. including one for police assault, stated that his sons-in-law had a lot of money in their possession and was afraid they would be robbed.
I have many records of Josephs, this one below also mentions Nottingham, there are many more.
while reading through them i know that at any one time there are multiple Josephs and Williams plus more names, Sue of the Romany Genes web site showed me how they all linked up, She found many many Census records over time, in the time of this older Joseph above from Gedling Street there are many records showing them moving around Nottinghamshire, Yorkshire, Derbyshire and more, it is all there on the census reports, i would say there is a good chance that the Josephs you chose to look for may link with the rest of them, but i do not know.
Brampton Chesterfield Derbyshire 1866
Shocking Depravity
At the County Magistrates at Chesterfield Tuesday last.
Joseph Wiltshire 22 of Nottingham itinerant Gipsy besom maker and Emma Graham 34 alias knight pot hawker of south sea Hants the latter charged with having stolen five pounds three shillings the property of David Allen pot hawker of Boroughbridge Staffordshire in the Griffin inn Brampton and the former with having feloniously received the same, but the prosecutor on not appearing they were both discharged, it was stated that the male prisoner knocked him down and when on the floor the woman cut out his pockets, They were then charged by Maria Knight (wife of the male, and daughter of the female prisoner) with assaulting her Saturday night, it was stated that Wiltshire was living with his own Mother in law as Man and Wife, the case was dismissed as the parties did not appear.
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:) Hi again, in the letters did Margo not mention her surname whether married etc?
What was first line of address to which you sent your letter?
Keyboard86
Rotherham Grange
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Hi all, got to get this family off my note pad, can anyone find BMD for these?
1911 census
Richard Patrick O'Bryan 40 occ Licenced Hawker b London Holloway
Emmy 38 b Birmingham
Nelly 12 b Leicester
Violet 8 b Grantham
Maggie 5 b Nottingham
Catherine 4 b Leicester
Keyboard86
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Hi all, got to get this family off my note pad, can anyone find BMD for these?
1911 census
Richard Patrick O'Bryan 40 occ Licenced Hawker b London Holloway
Emmy 38 b Birmingham
Nelly 12 b Leicester
Violet 8 b Grantham
Maggie 5 b Nottingham
Catherine 4 b Leicester
Keyboard86
OK will plod on, a Violet Veronica Bryan was registered Sept qtr 1903 Grantham 7a 467 mmn Kirby, she married as Violet V Bryan or Violet V O'Brien June qtr 1923 Nottingham to a John Smith.
A Richard P Bryan died June qtr 1935 Nottingham 7b 279 aged 63
Also who did "Margo" address the letters to and was their no sign of a surname?
Keyboard86
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Family update,
Father-Joseph Wilshire/Wiltshire 1907atb-1957 (Birth place still unknown)
Mother-Laura Grogan formerly Waddingham 1904-1931
Laura Waddingham father-Amos Waddingham, coal miner
Laura Waddingham Mother- Jane Twells
Joseph1907atb partner, after Laura's death-Margaret(Maggie) Chesman 1907-2002
Kids
John Amos Grogan (Lost family member), Father John Grogan, waiting for birth certificate to 100% confirm, totally unkown to my blood, 1925-2010
Joseph Wilsher 1928-1928
Joseph Henry Willsher 1929-2009
Family addresses
1928- 22 pipe street, Sneinton
1929- 45 St peters street, Ratford
1931- 7 Lucknow Street, Sneinton
1939- 8 Fairholm, storer street, Nottingham
Jobs
Joseph Wilshire/Wiltshire- Carpet hawker, fruit hawker, street hawker
Laura Grogan formerly Waddingham- Wardrobe dealer
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My Latest clue to my mysterious Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb.
The image is copied from ROMANY ROUTES VOL 7 NO 1.DEC 2004
So I was send this image by a person out of the Wilsher/Wiltshire traveller blood line, who has been helping me a great amount in my research. What do you guys think, am I on the right line of thought?
Death certificate 1957, Joseph Wiltshire other wise Meakin, age 50, place Nottingham, occupation street hawker, death by inhaling stomach content.
-This death certificate is who I believe to be my Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb. The occupation match, the area given as death is about the same area as 8 storer street(1939 census), and the age match. I was always told drink is what killed him, this certificate did interest me because of the "other wise Meakin", which I have never come across before. I will send a copy off to a Margo who lived next door to him, for addition confirmation. When I asked Margo on the phone about the date of death before purchasing this certificate, she believed it to be around the right date.
Mary Amelia Earl 1884 atb
Birth register 1885, place Lewisham kent
Baptism 1885, place Lewisham kent
Marriage 1902, place Leicester, Uriah Meakin and Marry Amelia Earle
Census 1911-Chesterfield
Thomas Blair, Birth 1842 atb, Ireland, occupation Callery Grinders
Mary Ann Blair, Birth 1844, Leicestershire, England
Vriah Blair(Uriah Meakin), Birth 1881 atb, Brampton Derbyshire, occupation hakwer
Flarrie Blair(Florrie Meakin), Birth Nottingham 1903 atb
Census 1911-Rotherham
Henry Wilcher, birth 1888 atb, Sheffield Yorkshire, occupation crockery hawker
Mary Wilcher, birth 1884 atb, Lewisham kent
Joseph Wilcher, birth 1907 atb, Sheffield Yorkshire
-Mary Amelia Earl and Mary Wilcher one and the same?
If the information on the image is correct, it would be fair to believe that Mary Amelia earl and Mary Wilcher are one and the same... The Place of birth and date of birth would all match and even the child's name too. If this is correct the next question would be, Who is this Henry Wilcher?
-On the 1911 census for Vriah(Uriah Meakin/blair), Mary seems to be no longer with this family which also points to the Wilcher census.
He seems to Vanish just as fast as he turns up, it would increasingly seem that Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb may in fact, come out of the midlands Gypsy family, but I believe I have much more up hill battles to prove or disprove who he really is. In the coming weeks I will order the certificates for Marry Meakin and see what addition information I can find.
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Addition to my confirmed information, 1939 census unlocked for Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929. I was told by Margo this was correct but wanted it as fact.
Thank you for your Freedom of Information request to search the 1939 Central Register for Joseph Henry Wilshire.
I am pleased to inform you that our search of the 1939 Central Register has been successful.
The entry is found within The National Archives catalogue reference: RG 101/
This relates to Borough, County: Nottingham, Nottinghamshire
Enumeration District Letter Code: RMDA
Registration District and Sub-district: 430.2
Please find below a transcription of the information contained in each column of the register reading from left to right in sequence:
1: Address: 8 Fairholme Terrace
2: Schedule Number: 363
3: Sub Schedule Number: 3
4: Surnames and other Names: Wilshire, Joe
5: O V S P or I (Officer, Visitor, Servant, Patient or Inmate) Not applicable
6: Gender: Male
7: Birth Day/Month: Unknown amended to 30 July
8: Birth Year: 1930 amended to 1929
9: S M W or D (Single, Married, Widowed or Divorced): S
10: Personal Occupation: At school
11: Any detail in the Instructions Column: None
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A little story told from a settled person from the Wilsher/Wiltshire/Wilshaw/Wilshire Traveller family...
"Joseph Wilshire (born 1865) would spend hours making rabbit nets and selling them, but he also sold carpets, linos, furniture and he remembers him with his horse and cart delivering furniture and carpets etc to peoples houses. They also had a shop on Carlton Hill."
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I thought I would update you on my ancestry DNA,
I was matched to a Gloria Bradshaw as a Possible range 4th-6th cousin with Confidence: Very high and a Holmes Possible 4th 6th cousin with Confidence Good.
I believe Gloria Bradshaw to be the person who writ the Romany routes article. It named Mary Amelia Earl/Meakin/Watts giving birth to a Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb, I believe Gloria to be a relation to Florence Meakin. I have messaged her, and now waiting for a reply.
Holmes granny was one Rebecca Wilsher 1897 who married John Holems 1891(Both Gpysy familys), I have been talking to them even before the DNA results, Rebecca was mention in the article Gloria F Bradshaw writ for Romany Routes, as settling in Nottingham along with Joseph 1907 atb.
This would Increasing point to Joseph 1907atb being part of the Wilsher Gypsy family, the missing gap I believe would be whos child Henry Wilsher 1888 atb is. This has been long winded and dragged out and I believe there is even more to go... But hard work and luck is paying off.
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"Sarah Wilsher 1900 atb was the child of Joseph Wilsher 1865 and Elizabeth Woodward 1866 atb, both Elizabeth and Joseph were travellers settling in Nottingham.
Sarah Wilsher 1900 atb married John T Lewis 1899 in Nottingham 1917, Sarah and John both worked Sneinton market... Sarah Wilsher's Family sold carpets and John Lewis's Family Sold Fruit."
I was told this small story, and it really did make me think. My Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb has occupation as fruit also carpet hawker on certificates, and he 100% worked Sneinton market. I can only wonder the relationship they may of had with one another...
Some food for thought and information for any one who may be looking for this family.
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Joseph Wilsher 1957 death certificate
Margo believes the Joseph, 1957 death certificate to be correct. Joseph 1907 atb died of uncontrollable sickness because of drink...
"Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb would work Sneinton market, 2 times a week. He would earn enough money in 2 days, to allow him too drink for the rest of the week."
Mary Earl/Meakin certificates
So I had the Birth,Marriage and child's certificates turn up for Mary Earl/Meakin.
Other then some small errors like Earl Birth/Earle marriage, and Formerly Price on Florence Meakin Birth. It would seem the certificates dates/places/names match the Romany routes article 2004,
and the 1911 census:
Henry Wilcher, 1888 atb,Sheffield
Mary Wilcher,1884 atb, Lewisham
Joseph Wilcher, 1907 atb, sheffield
Mary Earl born 1885, Lewisham, Kent. She travelled to the Midlands, there she married Uriah Meakin 1881 in Leicester 1902, and has a child called Florence Meakin 1903 Nottingham. She then has a another child with Henry Wilsher called Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb Sheffield.
Samuel Grogan 1924
Also another half bother of Joseph Wilsher 1929 has been found, Samuel Grogan 1924 was the Child of John Grogan 1908 atb and Laura Waddingham 1904.
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1939 - Nottingham launched its slum Clearance scheme and, as part of that, five streets in the market area: Finch street, Sheridan street, Brougham street, Lucknow street and Pipe street were demolished. This gave the Sneinton market an additional 2 3/4 acres- more than twice the previous area.
Nottingham Evening Post - Thursday 09 August 1923
"DESERVED WHAT SHE GOT."
MAGISTRATE'S REMARK ASSAULT CASE.
At the Guildhall to-day, Mary Ann BrierJey, 2. Lewis-place, Ranchfte-street, Nottingham, charged Harriet Paddock, 25, housewife, 36, Pipestreet, and Joseph, alias Jim, Wiltshire, 50. described by the police as a poacher, of 6, Gedlingstreet., with assault. Mr. A. F. (defending) suggested that Bnerley was roiling drunk, and injured herself falling. Complainant: Certainly not, sir. I had my senses me. Was you there? Mr. Heane: No. I was not. lam glad to say. But I have several witnesses who were. Brierley having no witnesses, the chairman (Mr. W. Davi?) said Mr. Heane need not waste his time calling those for the defence. Complainant deserved all she got. She should keep away from »uch people and such places (public houses). The case was dismissed.
Harriet Paddock- I believe Harriet Paddock to be Harriet Wilsher, sister of Sarah Wilsher 1900, also daughter of Joseph Wilsher 1865, and Elizabeth Woodward 1863.
Harriet Wilsher born 1897, married Oliver Paddock in 1914, remarried Fred Ballington in 1949.
Father Joseph Wilsher 1865 and Mother Elizabeth Woodward 1863.
Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb/Laura Waddingham 1904
Birth-Joseph Wilsher 1928, 22 pipe Street
Death-Laura Waddingham 1931, 7 Lucknow street
"Elizabeth Wilshire/Woodward also lived for a while in Piper Street, a lot of the Wilshires lived with each other and went from house to house to live"
As like Sarah Wilsher 1900, working Sneinton market selling Carpets, more of the same direct family are in and around my Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb. Interestingly Joseph Wilsher 1865 is the uncle of Rebecca Wilsher 1897. Rebecca Wilsher, being mentioned in Romany routes article 2004 as settling in Nottingham along with Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb... One question leads to many more.
As a side thought, is Joseph, alias Jim, Wiltshire of 6-Gedling street in facted Joseph Wilsher 1865??
Joseph 6-Gedling street has a shop selling Cloths,Wardorbes, Gedling street road is straight off the demolished slum Clearance scheme streets too. The age is slightly out on the news reports, but it could well be... I may just have to wait for the 1921 census to turly know.
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https://picturethepast.org.uk/image-library/image-details/poster/ntgm000508/posterid/ntgm000508.html
I found records of the Woodwards and Wiltshires, the Paddocks are Hawkers in Nottingham there is a John Paddock who lived with a Gertrude Woodward and he was up for stealing an horse from a John Woodward, Oliver Paddock who you say is married to a wiltshire was on the rob with William Wiltshire, they robbed a safe, its a funny story for they tryed to smash it open with an hammer, i have lots of records from all over the shires, i was born just over from Gedling Street, it is on the border of St Anns, this area is where lots of them lived, i know every inch and yard of thoes places if you go on the web "Picture the Past" just type in any of the old Street names and you will see how the place looked.
Click on the link above and you will see were Joseph lived, look up to the top of the Street on the photo and that is Sneinton Market at the top, if you were to go a few hundred yards further you will find the next place they lived the storer Street area, that is the edge of St Anns that borders Sneinton, i was born just a few hundred yards if you take a right turn when you are looking at the photo, i have many many record storys of many of the Wilshers Wiltshires Wilshaws around this part of Nottingham, it came as a massive suprise to me to see how many of them lived around the same area, i will put as much as i have on here so other people in the future will learn of them when they try to find out about their Family, i never new their was so many of them, there is lots more than just the ones you have found, i know you have already done lots of research, you will also find them on their travels from Yorkshire over to newark Retford Worksop Mansfield Sutton and Nottingham, evan more to, this all around the same time of the Joseph living at Gedling street, most of them where still roming all over and then coming into Nottingham, i have dozens of records that i have collected over about three years or so, you have wrote to me again on the P.M, thank you for showing me about the Boylings and names like the Alans, i will show you also how they link up to in storys that i have found, the Alans Elliotts Heapes Woodwards Knights Holmes Smiths Boylings Winters and more Familys are Related in the things i have found, dont forget there is multiple first names like Joseph in the same generation, they were still visiting Nottingham from the Sheffield way right high into the 1900s, right up around the times of worled war two, i will put some storys on soon, i know you have read all my writings on the Dan Boswell Pagers when i talk of these things.
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https://picturethepast.org.uk/image-library/image-details/poster/ntgm000508/posterid/ntgm000508.html
I found records of the Woodwards and Wiltshires, the Paddocks are Hawkers in Nottingham there is a John who lived with a Gertrude Woodward and he was up for stealing an horse from a John Woodward, Oliver was on the rob with William Wiltshire, they robbed a safe, its a funny story for they tryed to smash it open with an hammer, i have lots of records from all over the shires, i was born just over from Gedling Street, it is on the border of St Anns, this area is were lots of them lived, i know every inch and yard of thoes places if you go on the web site i put on, "Picture the Past", just type in any of the old Street names and you will see how the place looked,
Picture the past is a brilliant website, its where I purchased my Lucknow photo, they had one the same year of the death of my great grandmother, it really did make me think how they must of lived. I have slowly been building a Elizabeth Woodward tree, currently at Thomas Woodward 1820 atb. Not sure their connections to the other Woodward tho.
I will slowly start putting more information up as time past. I am putting a extreme amount of time, in placing my missing link atm. I have built a number of trees... Mainly been researching the William Wilsher 1811 and Lydia Jones 1812 Family lines atm.
I was always just told stories of travellers, and it was always a deeply held belief of my family we came from that culture, as a child I was taken on to new age and Romany traveller sits, by my father... He built connections with gypsy and travellers in the south west. In my teens I even had female traveller friends who had settled. My father has always believed it as fact, I have always been on the fence... I do plan in time to learn a style of Romany talk.
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What i think i have learned from coming on the internet is the fact i have been able to not only meet and exchange information with people but also there is this vast catalogue of written history available to people like me who surrounded by facts that are limited to that which you were raised with, if things passed you by as in knowledge well in the past history was gone forever, now when i was growing up i was told all about Gipsy story's and a few names, i would watch my Mother go out Hawking, knocking the doors, i went lots of times to, there was lots of the Gipsy language as in words that held a meaning to every day things, my Mother told of the times when she was young and Relative then used Gipsy words in everyday talk, when people die something always dies with them.
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Hi
So is this right, Edward Wilsher 1760 married a Letitia Smith 1760. Then their Son William 1811 married Lydia Jones 1812. Sue the founder of the Romany genes Web Site found me this Census several yeares ago, is this the William and Lydia that you talk of.
People not in houses*
1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier
Lidia Willshaw abt 1812 Codbrough, Nottinghamshire, Wife
Joseph Willshaw abt 1846 Darrington, Yorkshire Son
Lidia Willshaw abt 1848 Lincoln, Lincolnshire Daughter
//
Walter Nelson abt 1829 Scotland Son-in-Law
Lotis Nelson abt 1829 Stowe, Lincolnshire, Daughter
Henry Nelson abt 1853 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
George Nelson abt 1854 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
Harriet Nelson abt 1856 Carlton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
Mary Nelson abt 1858 Pontefract, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
//
William Blewitt abt 1809 widow Stamford, Lincolnshire, Head tinner & Brazier
Sarah Blewitt abt 1837 widow London, Middlesex, Daughter-in-Law
Valuza Blewitt abt 1856 York, Yorkshire, England Granddaughter
Enis Blewitt abt 1860 Hull, Yorkshire, England
//
John Lee abt 1797 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Head
Charlott Lee abt 1791 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Wife
Tenna Lee abt 1834 Livingston, Norfolk, Daughter
Mary Boss abt 1791 Farnham, Suffolk, Widow
John Phillips abt 1832 Thorne, Yorkshire Tinner & Brazier
Do you see also how it states William was born at Longbillington, Nottinghamshire. Now look at the
"The Lincolnshire Travellers Birth, Marriage and Death Certificates and Parish Register Collection"
http://rtfhs.org.uk/the-lincolnshire-travellers-birth-marriage-and-death-certificates-and-parish-register-collection/
This is the Web Site named the Romany Travellers Family History Society, they are listing Edward and Letitia as Wiltshires, you name them as Wilshers and the Sue says Willshaws.
WILTSHIRE Edward
Bp 14 May 1826, Timberland, Lincolnshire, son of Edward and Lydia Wiltshire, Travellers.
WILTSHIRE John
Bp 10 April 1833, Woolsthorpe, Lincolnshire, son of John and Sarah Wiltshire, of Snelson, Derbyshire, Chair Mender.
WILTSHIRE William
Bp 19 July 1805, Long Bennington, Lincolnshire, son of Edward and Letitia Wiltshire, a Traveller.
Look at the record just above of William 1805 saying Long Bennington, Lincolnshire, son of Edward and Letitia Wiltshire. I have been trying to find Longbillington, Nottinghamshire where it says in the Census record at the top from 1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier
Well i have looked and looked and it seems Longbillington is just an acient field, look at this quote from this book
Thomas Cox - 1738 - Great Britain
... and in a Field belonging to it, are the Ruins (as the Inhabitants believe) of a Town called Long Billington, which, for many Ages hath been demolished.
I was wandering what do you think, and do you see in these three acounts that i have wrote above, one from you, one from Sue and one from the R.T.F.H.S. how Wilsher Wiltshire and Willshaw is Transcribed as thier name, would you tell me of the record you found of Edward Wilsher and Letitia.
And do not forget they used the different names themselfs, they new what they were doing, i wrote of this also on the Dan Boswell posts, my Mother told me long ago that they would evan have it out among themselfs as to which was the real name, my Mother told me which one Her own Mother would talk of as being the oridgenal one, but i will not say the true name. I was wandering is Longbillington Nottinghamshire, and Long Bennington, Lincolnshire just a mix up, or was they just travelling around, and where was the Old Edward born, do you think he was like a local man of an area who married into the Smiths or did everything start with is Son William, or did he have a Dad who travelled about, what do you think, you have done a very big amount of research, i new this from your first post, just put the lot on in one go. I will put as much on about the Woodwards for you that i have found, do not research to hard though, you will just burn out and not enjoy the exsperience. I was reading sometimes right through the night till morning doing research about the times of Daniel Boswell, well i would read many books page to page and my eyes just wanted to close, but i would not let a single page be unread incase i missed something then all of a sudden after several books i noticed all you had to do was look at the index at the back of the book, wow, then i realised lots of the old books had all the names and places in the pagers at the back of the book listing the page name to read, i was evan reading the index of the books but did not realise what it all meant, when the penny dropped i just could not believe how stupid i was, never mind.
Tuesday 6 October 1908 Derbyshire Courier
POACHINQ AFFRAY. Another Suspect in Custody. l am innocent ; i know nothing about it, was the answer of Thomas Wiltshire, alias Wilshaw and Wilsher, who until recently resided at 40, Apple Street, Sheffield, and occupation is a hawker, who was brought up to Court on Monday, on a charge of having inflicted greivous bodily harm on Sergeant Butchby and Police-constable Aves, at Tolley
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Hello, I use the name Wilsher but I have seen the same blood lines go under Wiltshire, Willshire, Wilsher, Wilsher... I mostly use Wilsher because its my last name and I cant be bothered to keep writing out a list of last names.
Yes that's the correct 1861*Pontefract census, for William Willshaw and Lidia Willshaw, this is the family I have mostly been researching, they have a number of kids and grandchildren, I believe they marry Nelson, Boyling, Woodword, Holmes, Smith, Winter, Elliott, and other families.
I believe Lotis Nelson to be Lotis Wilshaw-Birth 1829, married Walter Nelson 1829 in 2 Jun 1845.
Joseph Willshaw abt 1846, married Maria Knight abt 1849 in 1864.
The aspects of Edward and Letitia I have seen are mostly from the Ellitott Book and what i have seen other people map out in trees, I have not put a great amount of time in researching them.
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I have looked for the Nelsons, i wrote about them to on the Dan Boswell posts, i am sure they to are named Nielson sometimes, they are from Scotland as the Census says, i have many records about Scotland my Great Grandmother said She was born there, but no record is known, i will soon do a research for her, everybody tells lies though, you have to believe me lots of the records may be wrong for several ways, people have tryed to research in a way that writers have once wrote, did you read the record about Joseph and Mary Woodward that i put on in Dans posts, its just you say of the South West connection in your Fathers life in the middle 1900s, how come Joseph and Mary was heading that way back the 1890s, i offten wander about this record, why was they heading South, who was they going to meet.
Gloucestershire 1891
Petty Sessions, Berkley, Thursday. Joseph Wiltshire, Mary Ann Woodward, and Jemima Gasby,
Gipsies travelling with vans, were arrested and brought up under a warrant charging them with assaulting and beating William Coles Harding, farmer and dealer, of Sanigar. It appeared from the evidence that the prisoners visited the Bell Inn at Berkeley Heath, and there being some dispute as to a broken cup, Complainant deposed that he was sitting outside the Bell talking to three or four other farmers and dealers, and heard the Landlord, Mr Hooper, ask defendants to pay for a cup they had broken. Wiltshire was very abusive, and complainant told him he had belter pay and get off Wiltshire took off his coat, and thereupon caught complainant by the hands and butted his head into his face several times, causing severe bruises. Harding then defended himself, He put prisoner on his back on the ground, and then the two females "pitched into" witness. Woodward struck him with her fists, and knew how to use them. As there was a further charge against the prisoners, sentence was deferred. They were then charged, together with William Gasby, with assaulting and beating John Charles Hooper, landlord of the Bell inn, who said, when the fracas with Mr. Harding was finished, Wiltshire came and knocked him down unawares. As soon as he was down the four prisoners pitched into him and dragged him about. Gasby tripped him several times when he went to help Mr. Harding.
They hammered him about for five minutes. The four prisoners pleaded for leniency. The bench considered Wiltshire the worst to blame, and he was sentenced to 14 days' imprisonment with hard labour for the assault on Harding, and 14 days' further hard labour for the assault on Hooper. Woodward and Jemima Gasby were each fined and William Gasby was fined
And just look at this, i found this on some internet site a few years ago, it say Joseph and Lydia were staying at Saint Ann's St., tin man, Nottingham St. Mary, well this is right next to where the later generations stayed, just imagine the Wilshers had been coming and going into and out of Nottingham for years, and me born the same place, i wander what its all about, they have all vanished now. but not a worry when people read of the later years out of my Mothers Time well someone in the future will also have a grand ole time reading through things.
Joseph and Lydia Wilsher had a daughter Mary Ann baptised at Normanton on Trent 15th Sep 1816. Then there is a baptism on freereg for Lydia d/o Joseph and Lydia Wiltshire of Saint Ann's St., tin man, Nottingham St. Mary, 22nd Jan 1837. This Lydia would fit agewise with the widowed Lydia Elliott who is with Richard and Mary on the 1871 census and make her sister to Mary
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From records I have traced Walter Nelson parents to Scotland and then I can't find any thing els.
As for Somerset, to the best of my understanding my grandfather Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929 end up in Somerset becaues of the army... I do not think he had any connnections down here.
My father made connections with travellers by just talking. He fully believed he was Romany, growing up he would even tell other Children in school that he came from that culture, I can only wonder what they must of thought.
He even told me stories of when Gpysy and travellers would camp in our town, he would just walk over and knock on a caravan door, and have a tea also chat. He said "people thought me strange that I would do this, but in my eyes these were my people."
That's how deeply my father and even my uncles believed the stories of my grandfather.
As for the spelling my family split apart with some having Wiltshire and others Wilsher, there has always been in fighting about the correct name.
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You will be alright, dont worry yourself everything will be fine, dont ever worry about nothing, go and have a cup of tea, your Dad and your Grandad would want you to be happy, i will talk another time maybe tomorrow, look after yourself
michael
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From what I have seen from looking at the other parts of the tree, which I hit a lot of walls...
If even a hand full of them are the same as the William line I would believe the greater family to be a well known traveller family in the midlands from 1800s-1900s, whether they wre pure Romany or married in, or even English travellers I do not know.
I plan on spending at least 5 years on this project and purchasing 100s of birth,death,marriage for the Wilsher plus extended traveller family's. Even then I still believe there will be more questions then answers.
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From what I have seen from looking at the other parts of the tree, which I hit a lot of walls...
If even a hand full of them are the same as the William line I would believe the greater family to be a well known traveller family in the midlands from 1800s-1900s, whether they were pure Romany or married in, or even English travellers I do not know.
I plan on spending at least 5 years on this project and purchasing 100s of birth,death,marriage for the Wilsher plus extended traveller family's. Even then I still believe there will be more questions then answers.
I think in a general way the futher back you can trace a family name the more relatives with that name will be alive now, so if you have two thousand Gipsy families named Boswell it is more than likley that the Boswells are a very old Gipsy family, the Wilshers Wiltshires Wilshaws have no where near the amount of Families as of the Boswells, of course not all the Gipsy Boswells will share the same oridinal ancester that came over to Britain, but in a general way what i say must be true.
So if Edward Wiltshire 1760 was the Father to William who is the oldest of them then this means they start with Edward, all you need to do is find who was Edward born from, you told me you found that record of him in the book of the Gipsy Elliotts, the record says Edward Wiltshire was a Traveller, but this could mean he was a local man who took to the travelling way of life or he maybe married into a travelling family, there is one more thing Edward may or is Father could of used the Wiltshire name as an alias, dont forget it is how you judge things people in these times are conditioned to think in a way that conforms with the values and teachings of the educated peoples of Britain, the Romany who came to Britain already had the geane pool of many Countrys in them, they was already married in before they came here, i have looked and looked and looked and i can not find not a single 100% family or a single person with thoes Indian geans, not evan 90%, i think the best i have seen and i may be wrong but i think i saw once a 40% in a European Country that denoted to a person, in Britain i think i read that someone had about 20%, but if you trace your Family just down from your Dad to your Dad to his Dad right back to India then in your mind you are a Romany, i think a Romany is a Gipsy, but then a person must ask themselfs what is a Gipsy, well if you dont know you will never know, a lot of the talk that goes on about this subject is to me very strange, people loose their mind, well i better leave it there, try not to use words like pure when refering to the Gipsys, the Gipsies are Gipsies, you have got to have Old Familys, sure how can you have Young Familys if you dont have Old ones, Its so simple but educated people who have started all this talk just do not realise that it was themselfs who were simply talking and writing of thier own ways vallues and ideals, their way of the ancester, its so simple to see yet its done everyone, wow, so i would just say to you more than likely if Edward Wiltshire was the First of his people to travel then they must of married in to a Gipsy family in his time or one of his Childrens time, so who ever was the first Family known as a Gipsy well then the Family line would travel back through that name, i think if you are a Gipsy or come out of the Gipsies and you know this, then that will be forever always who you are, down through a Womans line or a Mans line to me means just the same, you could be from familys that had Cousins or who had more D.n.a and more genes in the total amount than you, over the last ten yeares i have learned quite a lot, but the daftest thing is how daft some people are, they rearly do insult Dead People, the shame of it, i would rather be dead myself than talk the talk of all the stupid talk and bring shame on myself.
I do hope this talk helps you in the research that you are undertaking, i am not like you i only have what the know alls would call a direct line, through the Great Women, in this line it may lead to say a servant Girl who ran away with what the experts would call an half bred, who knows, so i am the King of the Scrag Ends, with the Pride to match a Mountain, no i have evan more Pride than that, its true everyday i wake up and i know no one can tap me on the shoulder, no one can penertrate what i feel, every step i take i know what i know and it is my step, born Proud and never never will i die but only as a Proud man, i will never disrespect the Gipsies no matter how they are quantified by strangers, the so- called lowest of all the Gipsies have more about them than the so-called high and mighty big toffs who would swallow there own tongue when reading these true words, i do hope i have been of help to you, you can be my assistant if you want in my research, i will put lots on i find for you to, i will try my best to find things for you.
michael
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When I use the word pure romany, I am only talking about Edward... Even if he came over from Europe, I know he probably would not had been pure blood, even back then. That said, there would be a differents in him marrying in, being a English traveller of coming over from Europe. From a pure history point of view.
I would totally agree that living the life style and being in that culture is what makes you, I find the whole subject matter interesting from a culture and history mind set. Coming on here and finding like minded people has been a bonus.
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You tell of this being your Woodward line down to Thomas Woodward 1820 and Mary Williams 1815. well Emmanuel is with Joseph on thier travells in the record below, i know they are all related, no dout there is more to find, and i have found more and i will try and put some on tomorrow maybe or the next day, i will show you some good record storys with more connecting names and places.
And you say about them being Gipsy Midland families, Yorkshire is not in the Midlands, Nottingham is, Sheffield is Yorkshire, South Yorkshire.
Joseph Wilsher 1865 and Elizabeth Woodward 1863 Emmanuel Woodward 1842 and Mary Ann Allen 1845 Thomas Woodward 1820 and Mary Williams 1815. .
Derbyshire 1881
Bakewell Petty Sessions
A Gipsy Encampment At Stoke
Joseph Wiltshire, Attercliffe Common, summoned for making a bonfire on the side of the highway on the 26th of May in the parish of Stoke, to the danger of the public Defendant did not appear. Sergeant Fern stated that he found the defendant camping at the side of the highway, there was within three feet from the side the road and 50 feet from the centre of the road a large fire, He told him he had been repeatedly warned and being of no use, he would summon him. Defendant was very abusive when spoken to about the illegality of this " ho" he replied "I know nineteen points of the law, and I,ll teach you the twentieth." He was a low pot hawker and gipsy horse dealer. Cloths were hanging out to dry by the side of the road, and there appeared to be quite a small colony of the tribe camping on the side of the road with a roaring fire. Fined 2s. 6d 10s. 6d. costs.
Keeping a Dog Without a Licence
The same defendant was also summoned for keeping a dog without a license at the same time and place as the above. Sergeant Fern proved the case and the Bench imposed penalty of 5s. 10d with 10s. 6d. costs
Allowing a Horse to Stray.
A third summons was also issued against the same defendant for allowing a horse to stray on the highway, the parish of Sheldon on the 27th of May. Alcock proving the case said i was on the road leading from Ashford to Taddington, about 10.30 p.m. When I came upon some horses straying in the road, and further on a large fire by the side of the road and two wagons. it appears that Wiltshire having removed from Stoke made his way to the picturesque valley of Taddington Dale where he pitched up his tent but he found no peace evan there. fined 1s. and 10s. 6d. costs.
Another Gipsy's Horse at Large.
Emmanuel Woodward, a gipsy hawker, traveling in the company of Wiltshire was summoned by P.c Alcock, of Taddington, for permitting a horse to stray on the highway between Ashford and Taddington, on the 27th of May. .fined ls. and 10s. 6d. costs
Sheffield Independent Thursday 18 September 1884
Charge against Sheffield Men. Yesterday, at the New Mills Police Court, two young men, named respectively as David Woodward and Thomas Willshaw, earthenware hawkers, residing in Broad street lane, Sheffield, were brought up on remand on a charge of obtaining by false pretences two goats, valued at £1. ls., from Ann Chatterton, at New Mills, on August 30th. Prisoners sold one of the goats to Hugh Crookes, a Sheffield poultry dealer, and were apprehended by the Sheffield police. They were defended by Mr. Broadsmith, solicitor, who contended that they were men of good character, and had been entrusted by the prosecutrix to sell the animals, but were arrested before they had an opportunity of restoring the money. After a hearing extending! over two hours, they were both committed for trial at the Sessions, but allowed bail in two sureties of £25 each.
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Is, Joseph Wilsher 1865 and Elizabeth Woodward 1863 Emmanuel Woodward 1842 and Mary Ann Allen 1845 Thomas Woodward 1820 and Mary Williams 1815... Derbyshire 1881, A census?
This would be the Woodward I speak of, Mary Ann Allen and Emmanuel Woodward are Elizabeth parents and Thomas Woodward and Mary William are her grandparents.
There are also a number of bothers and sisters to Elizabeth.
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The link I am researching and trying to prove at the moment is... Robert Winter 1828 married a Jane Wilshaw 1837, I believe Jane 1837 to be one of William Wilshaw 1811 child...
One of Jane/Robert Winter kids marries a Thomas Woodward, who I believe to be Elizabeth Woodward bother. I need to start purchasing certificates to prove or disprove the intermarrying tho.
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The Allens and Winters are more Gipsy Familys that are stated as being related to the people we are talking about, below is a few records I will put more on later
Derby Daily Telegraph
Wednesday 13 July 1910
GIPSIES SENTENCED FOR ROBBERY WITH
VIOLENCE
Three Gipsies, Joseph Allen, Sarah Allen, and Barbara Winter were sentenced at the Chester Assizes on Tuesday for robbing with violence David Woodward another Hawker, of £42. It was stated that Woodward went to their encampment to buy a caravan, and that in a dispute he was knocked senseless, and that whilst the woman held his hands Joseph Allen went through his pockets. Joseph Allen was sentenced to nine months imprisonment, Sarah Allen to six and Winter four.
If you read several other reports regarding this event, and not just the date stated above, you may find out more information that may help you in your research
(Their ages are mentioned)
(Tranmere as a closer location plus more information regarding the location of the camp site)
(It is stated that David Woodward was accompanied with his wife and the fight was among five Gipsies not three)
(They had been to a Public House)
(Information about the content of the fight)
(Sara Was Josephs Wife)
All this information may be used to help in a persons research. Look at what we have.
A date.
Locations
Names
Relationship to the people present
On a more general note you may learn that they bought and sold to each other, now combine this information with the other records at your disposal and a far more informative picture starts to appear, remember many records will have faults if not lies in them, you need everything, evan then you must place doubt as a true tool of guidance.
THE SHEFFIELD DAILY TELEGRAPH
THURSDAY 25 NOVEMBER
1869
ASSAULTS.-Joseph Willsher and Thomas Willsher, Pot Hawkers, Attercliffe, were charged with assaulting David Allen, of Brampton Moore, near Chesterfield. Mr. Sugg appeared for the prosecution, and Mr. Chambers defended. On Tuesday afternoon prosecutor was in the horse fair when he was struck by the prisoner Joseph, and the brother kicked him whilst he was on the ground. He was cruelly ill-used, and was rendered unfit to follow his occupation. The bystanders sent for a Policeman, and the prisoners ran away, but were apprehended under a warrant.-The Magistrates were of the opinion that a savage assault had been committed, and the prisoners were ordered to be imprisoned in the House of Correction for two months each.
Again you just need to look out for the guiding clues.
Attercliffe
.. This is a place of the Wilshers of long ago
Chesterfield
.Brampton
. read my other writings
Level of Violence
. This I will explain soon, maybe in a few posts time
a must Read... the truth.
... Do not forget go back to page five on this thread and read about Joseph Wiltshire robbing David Allen the pot hawker.
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Derbyshire 1911
Identifying a Fowl
Brampton Men Accused of Theft at Ridgeway.
A mystery surrounding the disappearance of a Ridgeway farmers fowl resulted in two Chesterfield men, named Thomas and John Woodward, van dwellers of Rodney Yard, Brampton, being arrested. It was, stated, however, at the Eckington Police Court, on Monday, when the two men were brought up. that a fowl, which was found in their possession had been given to them. The fowl which was said to have been stolen belonged to Lewis Taylor, of Stuben Hill Farm. Ridgeway. On March 27 he said, he missed a fowl, similar to the one produced in Court. Florence Edith Poile. married woman, of Ridgeway, said that she saw the two with a trap, and she noticed one of them pick something up off the road. When the man got up again, she added, she noticed that he had got a fowl. He wrung its neck and put the bird in a cart. P.c. Hudson stated that he went to Brampton and saw' the men, Woodwards, and found that the men were the men. who had been to Ridgeway buying old iron. When interrogated, John admitted they had stolen a fowl from Ridgeway, and eaten it. Later, however, he said, it was in the house, and produced it. on the way to the police station John declared that a woman named Mrs. Fidler gave them the fowl. Mr. A. J. Hopkins, of Chesterfield, who defended, pointed out that the only evidence the prosecution had brought was that of the prosecutor, who could only identify the fowl produced in Court by the head and legs. a lad named William Mitchell, employed by Mrs. Fidler. declared that he caught a fowl on the instructions of Mrs. Fidler, and gave it to John Woodward. The bird was "sick and they did not expect it would live. Mrs. Fidler corroborated this story and evidence having been given by the men Woodward, who denied the charges, Bench gave them the benefit of the doubt and dismissed the case.
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BRAMPTON
THE RODNEY YARD
https://picturethepast.org.uk/image-library/image-details/poster/dccc001305/posterid/dccc001305.html
The Rodney Yard Brampton near Chesterfield is one of the old stopping Grounds where lots of my Mothers Relatives passed through over many years of travel, it as long since gone but by using the maps online it is easily found, if you go back in the posts I have wrote on rootschat you will find more information, Rodney Yard the Peoples and their Story's must be remembered and preserved for the future Generations, i never new of this place nor did I ever hear my Mother say She new, then one day I found it, I to have found many interesting story's of the history and the Peoples that connect in many ways to Brampton.
At the back of the Bold Rodney Public House, there once was a Great Yard, this became a place that Gipsies who like the Wiltshire's who roamed over several Counties temporally used as a place to keep their Caravans, this yard in time became to, a sort of a settled community to all types of Hawkers and People, some of the times are of great sadness, others, well Gipsies I have found somehow possess in their life the Greatest of humour,
this place is rich in history, you can find the People I write about well back into the 1800s, and forwards to the 1930s, there to are many Big Names and story's of People like the Lees and Smiths who stopped there, I found true story's to of the Woodward's and Wiltshire's, there is much to learn from the story of Brampton, I was told the new building on the site of the old yard were erected in the 1990s.
I found and have spoken to People who lived and grew up around this place and through my research on the internet and oral history of this time in researching I have found there were several things that all came together to make Brampton the hub for the Gipsies over hundreds of years .
In the fields around Brampton there is a very special clay that was dug from the earth to make pots, mugs bowls and the like, it was renowned for its looks as the unique Chesterfield Earthenware, also there was an abundance of local coal that was next to the clay fields, they the People of Chesterfield then made many many places to make pots, also there were natural waterways that ran through this place that provided the water needed in the process of manufacture of the pots than intern were fired in the kilns, it was a special place where everything in nature came together to create this hub, a place Gipsies found and exploited, I have found much information about the history of clay, coal , waterways and all the peoples, the Gipsies were one of those Peoples, I do know some of you on rootschat have spoken of not all pot dealers are Gipsies, I to have found your research to be true.
I remember how the Great Men I found in the 1700s the Herons and the Boswells, and how the Boswell Man said of Himself He was a Man who went about the Country selling mugs, I have researched and read much up of the history of Scotland over hundreds of years, through this research long ago Gipsies became known as Muggers for being People who sell pots and mugs, then down through the years it became a bad name to be called a Mugger, but really the very old Gipsies were the Muggers for it was them who sold the mugs and pots, I have read Great information about the times that supports this from long ago, it was none Gipsies who called the Old Gipsies muggers, then years later mugger became a rallying cry for others to say you dirty muggers are not real Gipsies, I think through my research people alive now have been influenced by the wrong teachings of others, this is my view through reading the old accounts of the greatest of minds and writers, unknown to many and who's words of history are hidden in dusty papers and silenced, so Brampton its story's and history, may be used as an example, these storys will be replicated around Britain, you will find your People, you will find their history, many many Horses and trades were needed in the history of Brampton.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjTwv3u9rzSAhUiJcAKHaIFCMEQFggoMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mernick.org.uk%2FBrownJugs%2FBrampton%2FBrampton.htm&usg=AFQjCNGiZeMxMJ36YsM0a8Iejut9bipcRQ
There are many more research storys from around Brampton, you will hear how they stop and travel between Sheffield Dronsfield Worksop Mansfield Shirebrook and all connecting Towns and Villiages, you must collect everything, a clue that seams of no consequence when combined with other such clues leads you ever onwards to yet more discovery's, everything must be collected and saved, annualised and brought forth and used as new evidence is found, never dismiss anything, you will be surrounded by falsehood's and mistakes, never trust a census as genuine, use the census as a guide then make your own mind up, if you place great faith in the census reports as tottaly genuine you are but lazy researchers who are just looking for results and history and people of the future will look on you as such, put everything to the test, for if you are wrong at least it is your mistake and no falt of another, i will do my best for everyone who as an interest and of course relations who like me look for that which is unknown. I will do my best.
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my 2nd great grandmother was Lydia Wiltshire ,she married my 2xgreatgrandad Thomast Elliott
NameLydia WeltshierGenderFemaleAge18Event TypeMarriageBirth Yearabt 1838Marriage Date22 May 1856Marriage PlacePeterborough, St John, Northamptonshire,SpouseThomas Elliote
NameAge
Name
Thomas Elliote
Name
William Elliote
Name
Lydia Weltshier
Name
Joseph Weltshier
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my 2nd great grandmother was Lydia Wiltshire ,she married my 2xgreatgrandad Thomast Elliott
NameLydia WeltshierGenderFemaleAge18Event TypeMarriageBirth Yearabt 1838Marriage Date22 May 1856Marriage PlacePeterborough, St John, Northamptonshire,SpouseThomas Elliote
NameAge
Name
Thomas Elliote
Name
William Elliote
Name
Lydia Weltshier
Name
Joseph Weltshier
Hello there, small world hey?
Have you purchased the Elliot family tree book? It has what I believe to be your Lydia on the tree, the names and dates match.
This marriage is on the other side of the tree from what I'm researching ATM, I plan on doing that part at a later date. I would happy swop emails, also I am interested in any and all stories you have of this family/photos. That your willing to share.
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So I finally made contact with Gloria,
I will not go in to too much detail, but she is a direct relation to me... Her grandmother Florence Meakin is my great granfather's Joseph Wilsher 1907 atb half sister.
Mary Amelia Earl 1885 married in to the traveller life style, and had two kid with two different partners. The father to Joseph is unknown to her.
I was unable to find a birth certificate to Joesph Wilsher 1907 atb. It's believed he was born in a caravan when they were traveling. As there was no register office around, they did not bother to register his birth lol.
This really has been a journey, with much, much more to go. Bringing life to long lost people and their life's has been nice.
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Hi Skyshot1990 ,I have many photos of the Elliott family ,my greatgrandad was Fred Elliott ,married to Emily Smith ,their daughter was Ginny Elliott married my grandad Ben Smith .I do have the book ..be great to share info ...Janeo...
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Skyshot1990 i am also in contact with a descendant of Robert Winter and Jane ...
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BRAMPTON
THE RODNEY YARD
https://picturethepast.org.uk/image-library/image-details/poster/dccc001305/posterid/dccc001305.html
The Rodney Yard Brampton near Chesterfield is one of the old stopping Grounds where lots of my Mothers Relatives passed through over many years of travel, it as long since gone but by using the maps online it is easily found, if you go back in the posts I have wrote on rootschat you will find more information, Rodney Yard the Peoples and their Story's must be remembered and preserved for the future Generations, i never new of this place nor did I ever hear my Mother say She new, then one day I found it, I to have found many interesting story's of the history and the Peoples that connect in many ways to Brampton.
Interesting the 1911 Census I believe to have Uriah and Florence is named Brampton as birth place for Uriah, I wonder if there is a connection with this place...
Name:Virah Blair(I believe to be Uriah Meakin/Blair)
Age in 1911: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation to Head: Son
Gender:Male
Birth Place:Brampton, Derbyshire, England
Civil parish:Chesterfield
Search Photos
Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England
County/Island:Derbyshire
Country:England
Street Address:Per T Parsons
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Hiya Sky
There are Meakin.....Makins over Brampton Chesterfield, some are Horse dealers from well back the 1800s, these to could be local farmer types, others hawkers, i found records on Uriah and the Blairs, i do not know who is who, but i have found lots about the Meakins.... Makins, Blairs, plus the Woodwards, Wiltshires, and more names, i will write the records up later so you will be able to go through them.
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Hi Michael,
I believe I located a 1st cousin 2x removed to Uriah Meakin/Makin 1881 abt, the person believes the certificates I have to match, the stories I was told also would match with my 2nd cousins stories.
Uriah Mother would be Mary Ann Blair and father James Meakin/Makin,
"Mary Anns grandad Moses Blair came from Ireland and was a travelling quack doctor."
"Most of them were travelling hawkers"
That would mean Uriah would be a Irish travller. I was told that Uriah went to prison and then Mary Amelia Earl/Meakin 1885 abt meet another man, strangly Mary Amelia Earl/Meakin and child Florance Meakin seems to settle a lot later in Nottingham, then Joseph 1907 abt. Joseph Wilsher 1907 abt seems to be in Nottingham around 1920s, yet the rest of the family did not settle in Nottingham till 1930s-1940s.
It makes me wonder, if Joseph Wilsher 1907 abt went to Nottingham becaues of his fathers family or just to earn a more stable living.
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Hi Sky
The Blairs in what i read as a name that may match to what you say are more down the South Leicestershire way, 1860s, the Meakings Makins seam to me to be mostley from more up this way, there is so many people with names like Meakin makin from around the Brampton arear, i just try and find certain things that may fit, this below is only a little bit of what i have found, the Woman in some of the storys from what i have found do not get treated well, i will never write all the full accounts up, i will write more later it may help you piese things together or just let you form the bigger picture of life around the times of the people you are looking for, this is all very interesting,
just to say i think the Meakins are more of a up this way family from maybe some kind of Hawker people, they could be mixed with Gipsies of other familys, i never have heared their name till you mentioned that the Joseph that you are looking for had a mother named Meakin, well the Meakins are around Brampton and the Wiltshires passed through there on accassions, the Wiltshires were always moving abouts, just check the census reports their all over several counties in a kind of big loop, you will see how others mostley stay around the same area like the partridge family around the Rodney Yard. I think there are many types of people who did the buying and selling life, some gave it a go and some would of given that life up, some would of mixed with longer Hawkers and people with Gipsy Ancestry, everyday i am learning more, Genealogy is great, the more i read though the more sad it is to, somtimes i read of how the Woman get a bad deal from the men, the story is always the same, i have read some rearly bad things, i dont think i will ever write about such things. But i will write back with a bit more that may help you. I dont think a person will ever find the full truth in any story, lots went on in the past and many lies, i was always told things, i will have to tell you a few things. It looks to me though that the Blairs if it is the same ones made it to the Chesterfield way, the Meakins Makins i think was already around there, the Woodwards and Wiltshires just pop up everywhere, when you put men and women together who knows what goes on, ships pass in the night they say, it is a very interesting story that you are doing. It is possibe that none of the storys i find link up with people you are looking for but at least then you can count them out and more onwards.
Saturday 21 July 1906
Derbyshire Courier
... BRAMPTON SEPARATION SUIT. the Chesterfield Borough Police Court on Thursday, application for a separation order was made by Florence Blair, the wife of Ernest Blair, a hawker, of Rodney yard, on the ground of his persistent cruelty. The wife stated that ...she had been married nine years and had three children, respectively aged seven, six, and one years, she was granted a separation order in 1902, he thrashed her and drank all the money, he never payed a penny to support her maintenance, although he was ordered to, he leathered her Blair had 12 previous convictions another separation order was granted and a alimony of 10s a week was ordered to be payed to the wife and children.
Leicester Chronicle
Saturday 24 September 1898
At the Melton Mowbray Police Courts, Uriah Makin Hawker of Chesterfield was charged with assaulting the landlord of the Noels Arms Inn, Melton, he and his mother said that it was his father who was fighting.
Monday 16 November 1914
Sheffield Daily Telegraph
Two Chesterfield Hawkers, Old Metal Dealers, Thomas Makin and Thomas Woodward, charged with assaulting and stealing from a farmer at Old Brampton
Saturday 2 February 1895
Derbyshire Courier
Ernest Blair and John Sampson Holland summoned for trespassing in search of conies in Walton Wood.
Friday 22 June 1883
Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal
James Meakin Hawker of Brampton
Charged with encouraging his wife in a fight with another woman.
1905 a Chesterfield Pedlar named Uriah Blair charged with assaulting a imbecile girl of weak
intellect, sentenced to seven years penal servitude.
1903 Uriah Blair, Hawker and van dweller of no fixed abode was charged by the R.S.P.C.A. with cruelly ill-treating a horse.
On Saturday in the Derbyshire Courier on the 15 May 1920, it is wrote Frederick Wiltshire of the Rodney Yard Brampton is up for allowing two horses to stray, also mentioned in the column about straying horses being a problem in the Chesterfield area, there is also a Thomas Meakin of Banks Street Brampton mentioned who was charged for having three straying horses.
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Hi,
From what I know Mary Earle's mother left her husband, and travelled back to Leicestershire where her family were, taking the children with her.
I was told the Bliars/Meakin family would travel Leicestershire, derby and Nottingham, and even maybe more a filed.
That prison story sounds about right for what I was told about Uriah, it would also match the time of birth for my Joseph Wilsher 1907 abt and a new man in my 2xgreat gran mothers life.
Also it would seem on the marriage for Uriah and Mary, James Meakin/makin the father has passed away... So maybe that's why he goes by Blair.
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I will try to find more for you, they was around Lincolshire also, i will write back with more storys another day, maybe next week, its so interesting to learn of everybody, my Mothers Mother did not like other kinds of people in a certain way, not everybody, evan if they stoped of at one of those stopping yards it was said she always wanted to put the caravan away out of the way from other peoples, you was told wrong when you said they settled down in Nottingham and before that they were Hawkers and before that they were Gipsies, the Wiltshires to a man always to themselfs would be Gipsies, i could show you records of all the big top names who are also known as Hawkers, the person who told you never listoned to Old People, in way back in yeares who knows like i said before maybe the Wiltshires married into a type of Gipsy family in the 1700s, i am sure you will find out, which ever way that story goes as nothing of vallue to me, everybody talks about the great direct line that makes you who you are, well i was born from a Woman so i guess that makes me a nobody, that will just do me fine, but every type of Gipsy went out Hawking, you must learn to stop learning from wrong things told to you by others. maybe i am being to hard, i know everybody is mostley only trying to learn, keep up the good work.
ps i just found some great information, you seem to already know most things, but i will write back soon, this is a great story, i just found lots more.
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All my stories were handed down from my grandfather.
It would seem Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929 spend his whole life in a house, with my great grandfather Joseph Wilsher 1907 abt coming straight from a travelling life style.
I can only think that's how it was told to him, or he thought it was best to discuss the subject in that way... Sadly Joseph Henry Wilsher died in 2012 and I will never know.
It's interesting learning tho, I was always told growing up I came from Romani, and my grandfather was meant to be pround of that fact, it was one thing he always made clear. I can only believe the stories must of come straight from my great grand father Joseph Wilsher 1907 abt.
Hopefully I can keep finding links and bridge the missing gap with time.
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"Joseph Wilsher, 39, a hawker, of 8, Fairholme-terrace, who had been found lying on the pavement in Bridlesmith-gate" (born 1907)
Published: Tuesday 02 July 1946
Newspaper: Nottingham Evening Post
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk
If you register you get 3 free articles, don't know if you have read this one?
Amended I see it has been found already.
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All my stories were handed down from my grandfather.
It would seem Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929 spend his whole life in a house, with my great grandfather Joseph Wilsher 1907 abt coming straight from a travelling life style.
I can only think that's how it was told to him, or he thought it was best to discuss the subject in that way... Sadly Joseph Henry Wilsher died in 2012 and I will never know.
It's interesting learning tho, I was always told growing up I came from Romani, and my grandfather was meant to be pround of that fact, it was one thing he always made clear. I can only believe the stories must of come straight from my great grand father Joseph Wilsher 1907 abt.
Hopefully I can keep finding links and bridge the missing gap with time.
Sky
I hope you find those links to.
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Hi Sky
Read through this research that someone was doing several yeares ago, it is two pages long.... so do not forget to click on the second page at the bottom of the first page to read the full accounts of the information. i will put more story's on soon to help you, i know you have already done much research, why do you not just put it all on in one long story. I know you have collected much information, it does not matter if you have made any mistakes, people in the future will always update such things, just say what you are here to say, everything is good, all that matters in genealogy research is the truth, i will try and help you for the reasons you are here, your own reasons are yours alone, now isn't that a good reason in itself. If these records below are true well they are from around Brampton not Leicestershire, and from Northamamptonshire way back, it is stated Moses may be born in Tyrone Ireland or evan Northampton, A most interesting family are the Blair's, also when you said Uriah Meakin Makin was an Irish Hawker, well this must meen the Meakins Makins are from Ireland also, I know you said Uriahs mother was a Blair, this though would not make Uriah Irish, what do you meen, will you put all the truth on in one go, if you know the answers to lots of the questions you ask would you please tell me, instead of asking about them. Alls good i just wish to learn. From your first post i new you already had a grip of the things you said you were researching. Also it is stated in the link below that Moses Blair married Ann FORD YKS Halifax 12 April 1819. Do they have that about right, if so have you collected any information on her side of the family. I am sure this road as manys the turnings. Through reading what must be thousands of acounts in record storys over about three years, none stop, i have to say you may use names to fit most scenario's, some will be right some will be wrong, besides from the basics i have to say only the real deal researchers know what they are dealing with, but i must say genealogy is a pastime that is most worthwhile.
https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/61309-Thomas-Smith
I found this record below from 1871 that may confirm one of the acounts in the records from the link above
http://www.cotyroneireland.com/census/CensusStraysEngland.html
1871
Civil Parish Brampton Ecclesiastical parish St Thomas Derbyshire
Moses Blair Age 76 Birth abt 1795 Head Tyrone
Ann Blair Age 76
Birth abt 1795 Wife born Cottingham Northamptonshire
Robert Blair Age 50 Birth abt 1821 Son born Cottingham Northamptonshire
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As of now my understanding of the Blair/Meakin family are extremely limited...
I have had some messages from people off ancestry, and contact with my cousin, once I have time I need to check news reports and records, to confirm or disprove stuff.
From what I understand as of now Uriah mother was a Blair and her family came from Ireland and were travellers.
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https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/61309-Thomas-Smith
I found this record below from 1871 that may confirm one of the acounts in the records from the link above
http://www.cotyroneireland.com/census/CensusStraysEngland.html
1871
Civil Parish Brampton Ecclesiastical parish St Thomas Derbyshire
Moses Blair Age 76 Birth abt 1795 Head Tyrone
Ann Blair Age 76
Birth abt 1795 Wife born Cottingham Northamptonshire
Robert Blair Age 50 Birth abt 1821 Son born Cottingham Northamptonshire
I believe the link, to be the same Family as I talk of. I will add, I do believe Moses Blair to have come from Ireland, I have talked to a direct family member of that Blair line, my second cousin also has first hand information from my 2xgreat grandmother who travelled with Uriah and his parents.
If some of the Blair family came from Ireland, and some travelled around in Vardos, It would be fair to say they could of been some sort of Irish travellers.
"Mary Ann Blair and James Makin certainly moved around a lot, Mary Anns grandad Moses Blair came from Ireland and was a travelling quack doctor. He is the furthest back I can take the Blairs. Most of them were travelling hawkers."
"Mary Earle travelled with the family caravans. Her job was to groom the horse..."
I have mostly started putting information about these people becaues they are connected to my 2xgreat grandmother Mary Earl 1884. To the best of my understand, they are no relation to me by blood. It dose build a image of travllers and people in and around the Midlands between 1800s-1900s.
Any information for the Meakin/Blairs i find, I will be handing over to my 2nd cousin to aid her, or used in finding my missing link... I do have messages from people but becaues it's from private messages and they are direct relations, I post limited things.
Leicestershire-From what I was told Mary Earl mother left her husband for another man, the new mans family were in Leicestershire, this is where Mary Earl meet Uriah.
I am just waiting on my fathers DNA, and in the comming weeks I will be doing my Y-dna. With more DNA, reocrds and hard reseach I hope to continue my progression
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I have been looking for Moses and related story's, the Blairs as a name are all over, many from Scotland, everything points to Moses being from Ireland, as in he must of said he came from Ireland on the census reports, one time it is said he was born in Northamptonshire, do not rule this out.
The truth i think in who a person is in life, is truthfully a simple answer, from researching i have found everyone is mixed, it as more than likely been this way from the first time a man set eyes on a woman, if you were born into the local population living a local persons life evan thoe you may have a mixed ancestry of several different cultures, you will still always be a local born and bred, you can be a person of say a travelling culture in your own life time who moves away from your ways, you are then just a person of that culture living a local life, your grandchildren who marry locals and live the same life are locals with cultures of several different kinds of ancestry, you can use this method of thought in any combination with all of the mixed ancestry you may find, i will write back in a few days with the information i have found while i have been researching for you.
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part one
Hi Sky
These are just Extracts of storys that need more research, I think if you can place Thomas Blair as a relative of Moses then you may for certain say Moses was of Irish decent, you will read how Thomas is like the many records of the Irish Tinsmiths of old that I have come across in my researches, I have also read of them wed to Gipsy familys, I have read such records in the Archives, Moses though, well he is an enigma, he sure is a Legend, more research needs doing by real experts to confirm his Irish ancestry or English maybe, or both, the answer to some of the questions may lay with his wife. I will only now in all my researchers do extracts, I think to many people are lazy and need to join a web site and do the research themselves, so much is lost through just using what you read from the research of others, Sue once told me that many of the family trees on the Ancestry site are wrong, she said people go on Ancestry and just copy things down thinking everything is 100% true, I would recommend everybody to join the website of the newspaper archives, I known there are other ways to read the old papers for I have done them myself, but I think you should all signe up to the on-line newspaper archives, it is not expensive in the least, I will only ever now in all my researchers do little extracts to help people in a way that may lead them to research themselves, trust me you will find the most amazing accounts.
Chester Chronicle and Leeds Inteligencer 15, 16 May 1775
Mr Robert Blair, a native of Ireland, aged 91, left six sons, four daughters, 87 grandchildren, 106 great grandchildren and six great great grandchildren.
.I put this one on above just to connect the name Blair to Ireland and to show how one name can become many.
Derby Mercury 14 December 1836
Moses Blair charged with assaults.
Derby Mercury 27 January 1841
Robert Blair charged with assault, also in 1840 he is charged with stealing.
Derbyshire Courier 6 December 1845
Moses Blair a well-known desperate characture who follows the calling of a quack Doctor, was charged with assault at the House of Correction.
Sheffield Independent 13 February 1847
Moses Blair was charged with disorderly conduct in a beerhouse at Hawley Croft, he was professing to be some sort of a Doctor, he offered to pull the toof out of any man whilst blindfolded, there then was some trouble and Moses was kicked out and a fight then took place with Moses his stick the police and the landlord, plus several people, he later admitted that liquor brought the temper out in him, he told the court he was in the Medical Line, and he was in Practice before the Battle of Waterloo. In the fight shirts were ripped from peoples backs. Wow, what a Ledgend.
Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal
18 January 1850
Samuel Blood and John Blood, tripe dealers, father and son charged with poaching.
Also in April of 1850, you will find an article on James Blair and his illegitimate child.
Derbyshire Courier 18 May 1850
Moses Blair article regarding the possession of a house.
Derby Mercury 25 December Derbyshire Courier 30 November
1850
Ann Blair, Wife of Moses Blair, Stoney Brigg, charged with assaulting Sarah Musgrove.
Derby Mercury 26 February 1851
Talk of a fight that was to take place for a purse of money between
Chucky Harris and Thomas Blair the bold tinker.
Derbyshire Courier 27 December 1851
An Irish Row.
Natives of the Emerald Isle, Blair a fighting characture was severely injured in an affray with James Kelly,
Derbyshire Courier 17 May 1851
Nathaniel Musgrove, Ann Fretwell, George Elliot, George Shaw, Sarah Musgrove, and John Musgrove charged with Assaulting Mary Blair whos father was a tenant of the party charged, also on the 18 May the next day the story as Moses Blair of Brampton, it is regarding the tenantship of a property.
Derbyshire Courier 21June 1851
A person named Blair, better known by people as Dr. Blair, is a tenant being in arrears of rent, Blairs goods were seized.
Derbyshire Courier 8 May 1852
Story about Harriet Blair ten yeares of age the daughter of the celebrated personage who prefixes Doctor to his appellations, Harriet was accidentally drowned at Mr, Elliots mill dam at Walton, she overbalanced while fetching water.
Derbyshire Courier 14 June 1856
Thomas Blair, travelling brazier, charged with assault.
Derby Mercury, Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal 22 July 1857
Moses Blair, 60 a gardener, charged with stealing four live fowls and two dead fowls at Crich.
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald,
29 August 1857
Samuel Blood and Mary Blood of Chesterfield, Tripe Dressers, assaulted.
.there is a good chance Mary was a Blair, in the link that I put up about Moses Blair being a tripe dealer and a Doctor plus other things, well the people on the link were discussing how Moses could be so many things, well it may be through Mary marring into the Blood family and them tripe dealers, Moses then may have taken or been given the chance at this way of making money.
Derbyshire Courier 17 September 1859
Mary Blood tripe dresser and John Blair her brother were both assaulted.
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part two
Throughout the 1860s you may read of a John Blair and his beerhouse, He's always in trouble to.
Leicestershire Mercury 28 May 1864
Thomas Blair, Tinker, charged with aiding and abetting to fight in a pitched battle.
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald 15 October 1864
James Blair was summoned for assaulting his father Moses Blair at Brampton.
Derbyshire Courier 6 May 1865
Article with a Robert Blair stated as being a sexton or a gravedigger.
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald12 August 1865
Moses Blair Brampton, medicine vender, better known by the name of Dr. Blair. Charged. On the 13 of May this story starts with Moses Blair threatening his wife Ann Blair, at Brampton, he said he would strangle her; there is talk of a cripple. I think she was known as Mary or Mary Ann or just Ann.
Sheffield Daily Telegraph, Derbyshire Courier 9 and 11 November 1865
Moses Blair of Chesterfield who is a professional itinerant doctor, Moses was making calls in the neighbourhood of Eckington and had his silver watch stolen in Staniforths beerhouse, while on his rounds.
Leicester Journal 23 August 1867
Thomas Blair, tinman and Brazier, charged with fighting.
Derby Mercury 26 June 1869
Thomas Blair charged with trespassing in pursuit of game.
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Heral 9 July 1870
John Blair, tripe seller assaulted, talk of the Bold Rodney Public House Brampton.
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald
31 December 1870
Inquest at the Peacock Inn. James Blair, aged seven weeks died in the arms of his mother
Derbyshire Courier, Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald 21 January 1871
In the Chesterfield market place Moses and Ann Blair of Brampton, were assaulted and had their stall damaged.
Derbyshire Courier 20 July 1872
An old woman named Ann Blair wife of Moses Blair, was assaulted by a man in her garden, the man said he was the best man in Derbyshire, she said she did not care, he then struck her, she told him to face a man and not an old woman of 77 years of age.
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald23 April 1873
Story of William Blair tripe seller of Brampton.
Also in 1877
John Blair, Labourer, of Brampton, charged with assault.
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald 7 May 1881
Births Marriages and Deaths.
May 3, Brampton, Moses Blair , aged 85.
To anybody also who may read these words.
From now on in any of my researches i will only do extracts of the things i may find, so much is lost from just people reading what they think is the full accounts of records, there are several ways to look at the old newspapers, i think it is far better to join the on-line newspaper archives, you will see them evan on Rootschat, sign up and do your own research, they do not evan charge you much, i promise anyone who reads these words you will be sure that you made the right choice, if you just want plain records stick to the census web sites that may help you, if you would like to know and understand the truth of your ancestors life, and not just what some self serving writer wrote, maybe not all of them, just join the on-line newspaper archives, you will be amazed and also learn all about the history's of the times of your relatives, evan people just trying to learn from a scholarly way..............you to, will expand your mind .https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/account/subscribe
Go on this link above and signe up, get someone a yeares membership for a present, read through the site they have helped many many people, they have people to help you to learn how to navigate their site, the census reports may hold many lies, d.n.a will only propergate those lies, it will never tell you the real truth, when say the police or the press were on to something they mostly new who was who, through the archives you will find the real truth, you may not like it but that will be the truth through history the truth will be reveled to you, do not forget that when a person is say up in court for something, anything, you can trust me when i say that for everytime say a man gets sent to the courts for say poaching you can be sure that 99% of the the other times he was poaching he never was captured, this goes for all the accounts, i know this to be true from myself just knowing these things, there will always be the odd one offs, but other wise by using what i have just telled you, you then will be able to form a bigger picture of the real truth, do your own research, never just trust the census reports, never just trust the d.n.a for it can be twisted by bad people, if you are say a 16th cousin, maybe, well their may be hundreds of concoctions to twist about, you can nearly say anything, make any story sound real, do not forget you can almost make anything up, i have found this to be one of the real truths, maybe some people rearly do amass records of other people and twist them to just feed their dark heart, i have always tryed to help people, do your own research, in the past no one rearly ever liked any of the Gipsy people, wether you came from a long established old line or a younger more mixed one, or evan a very mixed one, this also could be the truth of today, i know in my heart this is one of the truths you must learn, respect each other and respect the Dead.
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I have just had Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929-grandfather, national service record turn up, there is no doubt that 8 Storer street is the correct 1939 census... Another building bloke ticked off.
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Hello All,
Its been some time since I have posted here, I have started a new job and been waiting on a number of DNA tests... I am 99.9% sure my Wilsher line is Romani now, my uncles DNA results have thrown up a number of DNA matches at 30cm-50cm lenght with the surnames of: Winter, Smith, Boswell, Holmes and some others.
My goal now, is to pin point the correct place for my Henry Wilsher and then link the other blood lines to him... I am also waiting on my Y-67 familytreeDNA results. As I start purchasing certificates and find news reports, I will post all information here for any one who seeks their roots like I am.
All most 5 months on and I feel like I have only even started my trip in to the past!
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Hi all ,
So I'm back at my research now, I have purchased about 50 certificates of B/M/D for the Wilsher Romani family... I am hoping to hit the 150 certificate mark before the end of 2019.
So for a question-
Any one here come across any real links and proof of marriages with the Wilsher and Boswell families?
News on my ancestors...
4 Bother Christian...
Baptism-20th April 1881,
Place-Saint Phillip's, Sheffield, York, England.
Christian Children:
Fred Wilsher 1870
Jim Wilsher 1875 abt
William Wilsher 1878 abt
Walter Wilsher 1881 abt
Parents:
Joseph (Joe) Wilsher 1844
Maria Wilsher nee Knight 1847
Boyling and Wilsher blood line
Angereena Boyling 1893 is the Grandchild of Thomas Boyling 1836 and Harriett Wilshaw 1842.
Angereena Boyling 1893 married Fred Wilsher 1889 in Doncaster 1914....
The Spelling of the last name
So I had certificates turn up for the same family....
Bothers and sister
Frank Wilcher 1903
Sarah Wilshire 1900
Henry Wilshire 1886
Joseph Wiltshire 1884
Their grandfather
Joseph Wilshaw 1844
I truly believe that the name was put on documents, how ever the person writing thought it was spelt lol.
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New Member of the Wilsher Family, and more proof of blood line...
So I purchased a Birth Certificate for a random Wilsher child, that was in a 1939 census with Elizbeth Wilsher nee Woodward. Elizbeth would of been in her 70s at this point, and the child Roland Wilsher was aged 11-12.
So I was purely interested in who his parents were, so I could add him to my tree...
Turned out he was my Great grand father's (Joseph Wilsher 1907) half bother, being born in the same house 12 months before my granddads bother, at 22 Pipe street Nottingham.
Roland Wilsher Father is Henry Wilsher born 11 Dec 1885 Ilkeston, Derbyshire in a Van. Henry Wilsher 1885 parents are Joseph Wilsher born Aug 1865 Attercliffe, Yorkshire and Elizbeth Wilsher nee Woodward 1863.
My Great grandfather Joseph Wilsher 1907 is placed in a census 1911 with a Henry Wilsher and Mary Wilsher nee Earl, at Rotherham... I was told Joseph 1907 settled in Nottingham and at a later date Mary settled in Nottingham. I have always believed, he must of followed his father and think this is strong proof.
Roland Wilsher Born 1927 April, 22 Pipe Street, Nottingham-Father Henry Wilsher 1885
Joseph Wilsher Born 1928 April, 22 Pipe Street, Nottinggam-Father Joseph Wilsher 1907
With the Strong Dna matchs to the Holmes/Wilsher line, I think I may of just proved the correct place of my Great grand father, and his place in this family. No doubt I have much more to learn and find but I feel, as if im fainlly getting some where.
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Hi
I found your thread a few weeks ago and have been meaning to get in touch to tell you about my Grandad who I thought may fit into your tree but since my last visit you appear to have found him yourself! Roland Wilsher, sadly now passed, lived in Nottingham all his life. His Widow, Mary (my Grandmother) is still alive and approaching her 91st Birthday. Their two children both still live locally as do four of their five grandchildren (of which I am one, 38yrs old) so the Wilsher line is still very much alive and kicking in Nottingham. We were raised on tales of gypsy heritage so its fascinating for us to see how much work you have done looking into our family. Please feel free to PM me. Best wishes, Jennifer.
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Brampton Chesterfield Derbyshire 1866
Shocking Depravity
At the County Magistrates at Chesterfield Tuesday last.
Joseph Wiltshire 22 of Nottingham itinerant Gipsy besom maker and Emma Graham 34 alias knight pot hawker of south sea Hants the latter charged with having stolen five pounds three shillings the property of David Allen pot hawker of Boroughbridge Staffordshire in the Griffin inn Brampton and the former with having feloniously received the same, but the prosecutor on not appearing they were both discharged, it was stated that the male prisoner knocked him down and when on the floor the woman cut out his pockets, They were then charged by Maria Knight (wife of the male, and daughter of the female prisoner) with assaulting her Saturday night, it was stated that Wiltshire was living with his own Mother in law as Man and Wife, the case was dismissed as the parties did not appear.
Update on this news report: Joseph Wiltshire/Wilshaw born 1844 Pontefract, Yorkshire West Riding in a camp, Stapleton. Is the son to William Wilshaw 1811 and Lydia Jones 1800... Emma Graham nee kinght borrn abt 1825 is Joseph Wiltshire/Wilshaw 1844 monther in-law. Joseph Wilsher wife being Maria Knight Birth 1847.
Joesph Wiltshire/Wilshaw 1844 and Maria Kinght 1847 have at least 8 Kids, one of their Children is called Joseph Wilsher born 1865 Attercliffe, County of York... Who married Elizabeth Woodward.
Joseph Wilsher and Elizbeth Wilsher nee Woodward moved around a great amount, before settling in Nottingham with two of their kids being born in a vardo van.
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1881, 1891, 1900 and 1911 Census for Joseph Wilsher 1844 and Maria Wilsher nee Kinght 1847 Family.
1881 census-Street Address 19 Slancer St,Brightside Bierlow, Sheffield
Joseph Willshaw-Age 37
Maria Willshaw-Age 32
Joseph Willshaw-Age 15
Tom Willshaw-Age 14
Fred Willshaw-Age 9
Tim Willshaw-Age 6( James alias Jim Wilshaw)
William Willshaw-Age 3
Infant Willshaw
1891 Census-Sheffield, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Joseph Welshaw-Age 49
Maria Welshaw-Age 42
Jim Welshaw-Age 16
Bill Welshaw-Age 13 (William Wilshaw)
Walter Welshaw-Age 11
Emma Welshaw-Age 6
Henry Welshaw-Age 4
1900 census-Shirebrook Holy Trinity, Shirebrook, Mansfield
Joseph Wilt Shaw-Age 56
Maria K Wilt Shaw-Age 57
Emma Wilt Shaw-Age 18
Henry Wilt Shaw-Age 16
1911 Census-Fair Ground Brampton Chesterfield
Sarah Smith-Age 28
Florence Ann Woodward-Age 15
Selina Woodward-Age 12
Joseph Wiltshire-Age 69
Ryah Wiltshire-Age 60
Joseph Wiltshire-Age 42
Joseph Wiltshire-Age 26
Tom Wiltshire-Age 40
Fred Wiltshire-Age 38
Frank Wiltshire-Age 36
Henry Wiltshire-Age 34
Jim Wiltshire-Age 32 (James Wiltshire)
Billy Wiltshire-Age 30 ( William Wiltshire)
Walter Wiltshire-Age 28
Henry Wiltshire-Age 26
Emma Wiltshire-Age 24
William Smith-Age 26
Madaline Smith-Age 29
Mareny Smith
John Smith-Age 30
Leanor Smith-Age23
Spencer Smith
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Also interested in tracing this person
Name-Adam Jones Or Wiltshire
Gender-Male
Baptism Date-04 May 1830
Baptism Place-Newark Upon Trent,Nottingham,England
Father-William Wiltshire
Mother-Lydia Jones
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So these 5 families are all directly related, Family one being Joseph Wilshaw and Maria Wilshaw nee Knight. Family two also three are their two sons William and Thomas/Tom and grand children... Rebecca Wilsher being the women I have writ about in the past posts at Pleasley Nottinghamshire.
Then family four and five being another two sons of Joseph Wilshaw and Maria Wilshaw nee Knight at St George, Nottinghamshire at Smith field in caravans.
It's interesting to see, into at least the 1930s-1940s many of Joseph Wilshaw and Maria Wilshaw nee Knight branch of the tree, keep living or hanging around as a strong family unit, while still travelling the midlands.
1901 Censuses
Civil parish-Pleasley
Ecclesiastical parish-Shirebrook Holy Trinity
Town-Shirebrook
County/Island-Derbyshire
Country-England
Registration district-Mansfield
Family one- Travelling vans
Name-Joseph Wilt Shaw, Age-56
Name-Maria K Wilt Shaw nee Knight, Age-57
Name-Emma Wilt Shaw, Age-18
Name-Henry Wilt Shaw, Age-16
Family two-Travelling vans
Name-William Wilt Shaw, Age-21
Name-Maria R Wilt Shaw nee Hartley, Age-20
Name-Rebecca Wilt Shaw, Age-4
Name-William Wilt Shaw, Age-2
Family three-Travelling vans
Name-Thomas Wilt Shaw, Age-37
Name-Margaret Wilt Shaw nee Wray, Age-20
Name-Mathilda Wilt Shaw, Age-11
Name-Harriett Wilt Shaw, Age-10
Name-Thomas Wilt Shaw, Age-7
NameMargaret Wilt Shaw, Age-5
Name-Julia Wilt Shaw, Age-2
Name-Emma Willt Shaw, Age-2
At the same time, two more of Joseph Wilshaw and Maria Wilshaw nee Knight's kids are camping in another area together at 11 Smith's Field in Caravans.
Ecclesiastical parish-St George
County/Island-Nottinghamshire
Country-England
Registration district-Nottingham
Sub-registration district-Nottingham South West
Name-Joseph Wilshire, Age-37
Name-Elizabeth Wilshire nee Woodward, Age-38
Name-Joseph Wilshire, Age-18
Name-Henry Wilshire, Age-16
Name-Mary Wilshire, Age-7
Name-Sarah Wilshire, Age-6/12
Name-Fred Wilshire, Age-30
Name-Annie Wilshire nee Taylor, Age-30
Name-Angerimia Wilshire, Age-10
Name-Fred Wilshire, Age-7 ( Fred Wilsher who marries Angereena Boyling)
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Sue the great researcher from the South sent me information about the Knights in the censuses below, then i saw the William Knight from Arnold in the newspapers from 1866, i thought of the records below She sent me, i do not know how She finds things, She is very good at what She does, the Knights are all over the place, very wild to, are they from the locals or mixed like most i do not know, i have many records of them, they are wild, so are the Wilshers, who everyone is i do not know, there are many knights and many names around this way from local people, you may if you are a bad person make any story sound real, me, i care for nothing, i think of the past and respect the future, you can then reverse that, i think the story of all the Gipsy people as yet to be told, a load of lies will be the epitaph on evan peoples who are alive in this days gravestone, yes on their graves stones, yes the words will be wrote, true to, when they themselves die, they will leave nothing behind but lies, at least a person should at least try and write the truth, you have researched much, why not just put the lot down in one go, i am all good with the truth
Friday 13 July 1866
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
Tuesday 10 July 1866
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
Stealing Rushes
An old elderly man, named William Knight, was charged with stealing a bundle of rushes, used for re- pairing or turning chairs value 2s. the property of Thomas Thompson, brush and basket maker, furniture dealer, Long-row, Thursday lastlt appeared that, on the night named, an assistant in prosecutor's employ, named Thomas Roulston, had just come out of the warehouse when he saw prisoner, with the rushes in question under his arm, he walking out of the yard at the back of the premises, Knight is a chair bottomer, and lives at Arnold, the yard abuts upon Parliament-street, Roulston asked prisoner if he had paid for them, Prisoner said, Its all right, Ive paid the man at the shop. That was found to be untrue, and information was given to the county police, acting upon which Sergeant Blasdale and Police-constable Hayes apprehended prisoner at his house, working with the rushes at the time. they discovered the rushes in a bedroom. Knight was then charged with stealing them, Prisoner pleaded poverty the motive for committing the robbery, and After the depositions had been taken the bench being inclined to deal leniently with the case, Mr. Biaithwaite sentenced him to two months' imprisonment with hard labor, remarking that he had previously been convicted of a similar offence
1901: CENSUS* INDEXED AS WILT-SHAW SO DOUBLE BARRELLED!!!
.Nottinghamshire, England Civil parish: Pleasley Ecclesiastical parish: Shirebrook Holy Trinity Town: Shirebrook County/Island: Derbyshire Country:
* Lots there in caravans:+
William Wilt Shaw 21 B Woodsetts, Derbyshire pot hawker
Maria R Wilt Shaw 20 Hul Yorkshire
Rebecca Wilt Shaw 4 Sheffield, Yorkshire
William Wilt Shaw 2 b Notinghamshire
*
Thomas Wilt Shaw 37 b Sheffield, Yorkshire 27 hawker
Margaret Wilt Shaw 20 wife b South Pool, Yorkshire image i think 30?
Emma Willt Shaw 2 months b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Harriett Wilt Shaw 10 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Julia Wilt Shaw 2 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Margaret Wilt Shaw 5 b Nottinghamshire,
Mathilda Wilt Shaw 11 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Thomas Wilt Shaw 7 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
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Knight may be related?
Alfred Tyler 35 trav pot higgler b Leics
Lucy Tyler 29 wife b Swadlincote, Derbyshire
*
Walter Knight 33 coal miner b Romsley, Worcestershire
Martha Knight 32 b Brampton, Derbyshire
Ada Knight 2 b Shirebrook, Derbyshire
Leonard Knight 3 months b Shirebrook, Derbyshire
Mary Knight 5 b Brampton, Derbyshire
Robert B Knight 12 b Brampton, Derbyshire
William Knight 8 b Brampton, Derbyshire
**
Joseph Wilt Shaw 56 B Darrington, Yorkshire ( THIS IS HIS DAD?)
Maria H OR k ?.57 wife b Bolsover, Derbyshire
Emma dau 18 BWoodsetts, Derbyshire
Henry 16 SON B Woodsetts, Derbyshire
*
MARRIAGE 1864 ROTHERHAM JOSEPH WILSHAW WED MARIA KNIGHT
1861*Town:Wath upon Dearne:Yorkshire
James Knight 44 b Chesterfield, Derbyshire Earthenware Dealer
Emma Knight 36 b Portsea Hampshire
Harriet Knight 14
Maria Knight 12 dau b Sheffield
Henry Knight 10
Tom Knight 7
Bill Knight 2
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Josiah Blewitt 1801 In A Lane, Lincolnshire,Head Scissor Grinder
Sarah Blewitt 1793 Hoyland, Yorkshire Wife
Ann Blewitt 1838 Lincolnshire, Daughter
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1851*Ashover, Derbyshire
James Holmes 1804 Ashover, Derbyshire, Head
Ann Holmes abt 1832 Ashover, Derbyshire, Daughter
Sarah Holmesabt 1838 Ashover, Derbyshire, Daughter
///
William Knight abt 1805 Beeston, Nottinghamshire, England Head
Harriet Knight abt 1806 b Arnold Nottingham
Ann Knight abt 1837 Arnold, Nottinghamshire, England Daughter
Fanny Knight abt 1840 Wellington, Derbyshire, England Daughter
Henry Knight abt 1845 Wellington, Derbyshire, England Son Ashover,
Maria Knight abt 1847 Wellington, Derbyshire, England Daughter
This is Fannys bap*
FANNY KNIGHT Christening: 16/61839 Arnold, Nottingham Parents: WILLIAM KNIGHT Mother: HARRIET
other baps there include*(Confusing as Arnold down for Harriet and rest Wellington?)
2. JAMES KNIGHT - Christening: 06 MAY 1827 Arnold, Nottingham
3. JOSEPH KNIGHT Gender: Male Christening: 14 FEB 1813 Arnold, Nottingham
4. MARY ANN KNIGHT Is this Maria?)Gender: Female Christening: 07 JUL 1844 Arnold, Nottingham,
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1861*Think this is her *
George Mann 40
Ann Mann 34
Charles Mann 13
Harriett Mann 10
John Henry Mann 6
Fanny Mann 4
Elizabeth Mann 9 Mo
the Knights from Arnold may not be who you write about, Sue may be wrong, but She never says She is right, history always changes, you can only do your bit, i may put up much more soon about the Knights, maybe, you must just get on with what you want to say, you must evan frustrate yourself now gal, remember to, the further back you go if you see unknown names like the Wilshers with older names it meens they know them as alls good, in the far past they would know these things, and know who was staying with them
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Joseph Wilsher of 6 Gedling Street Nottingham
So I have writ about a Joseph Wilsher of a 6 Gedling Street Nottingham in past posts...
I have long believed he was related to the rest of the Wilsher family. I purchased the marriage certificate of my 3rd great aunt and boom, her address is given as a 6 Gedling street... This added with her sister Harriet Paddock nee Wilsher also showing up in a news report with a person from the same address... I am starting to think this Joseph is in fact their dad, Husband to Elizabeth Wilsher nee Woodward.
I will have to wait for the 1921 census to fully prove though.
Marriage-25 May 1915-Nottingham
Ernest Owen a carter son to Thomas Owen marriage to Mary Wilsher a hawker child of Joseph Wilsher a hawker.
Ernest Owen and Mary Wilsher Address 6 Gedling st.
Witness Mary's sister Sarah Wilsher.
"DESERVED WHAT SHE GOT."
MAGISTRATE'S REMARK ASSAULT CASE.
"At the Guildhall to-day, Mary Ann BrierJey, 2. Lewis-place, Ranchfte-street, Nottingham, charged Harriet Paddock, 25, housewife, 36, Pipestreet, and Joseph, alias Jim, Wiltshire, 50. described by the police as a poacher, of 6, Gedlingstreet., with assault. Mr. A. F. (defending) suggested that Bnerley was roiling drunk, and injured herself falling. Complainant: Certainly not, sir. I had my senses me. Was you there? Mr. Heane: No. I was not. lam glad to say. But I have several witnesses who were. Brierley having no witnesses, the chairman (Mr. W. Davi?) said Mr. Heane need not waste his time calling those for the defence. Complainant deserved all she got. She should keep away from »uch people and such places (public houses). The case was dismissed."
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try and get the soliciters name right, dordi, what am i to do with you,
look at the records below, Arnold is like a satalite place years back, many fields between that place and Nottingham, now its all just one mad place, Walter was there, why, and then he gives an alias as an Hartley, there from Scotland and the north, William says he to his an Hartley that to would bring Walter and the many Williams as one, i have found a record saying the Williams as in William Wilsher was travelling in a wagon that had a name printed on saying Maria Hartley of Leeds, and them with Blue eyes, wow, i know everyone is lieing but genealogy, well it just gets madder
Wednesday 16 June 1915 Nottingham Evening post
ARNOLD MANS ESCAPADE. What was described Deputy Chief Constable Harrop as a bad case of drunkenness in charge of pony and cart, and furious driving, was heard Mr. G. Fellows and other magistrates the Nottingham Shire Hall to-day. The defendant was Walter Wiltshire, 32, horse dealer, of Arnold, and the offence was committed in Front-street, Arnold, the morning of tho 11th inst. P.c. Jackson said defendant was rolling about from one side of the trap to the other. When seen afterwards defendant agreed that he was drunk, and said that if the officer would return in half an hour he would be able to speak to him. Defendant was fined 15s. for being drunk, and a guinea for furious driving.
7 May 1901 Derbyshire Courier
Walton; Taking Pheasant in the Close Season. Walter Wiltshire was charged with an unlawful taking during the close season, Walton, on April 21slInspector Evans, of the Chesterfield Police Force, slated that he visited the defend van the day named and asked his wife what her husband had brought that morning, and she answered " nothing." Witness then asked defendant what he had under his jacket, and replied "nothing but my waistcoat'' Witness searched the cupboard, and found a recently killed pheasant there -Defendant said he had brought the bird for shilling.Fined and costs
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you have researched much, why not just put the lot down in one go, i am all good with the truth
Hi again,
I hope all is well, When I have time I will post more, I am currently researching 5 families that directly relate to the Wilsher family... I now have 3 folders, which are slowly filling up with birth/marriage/death certificates, Photos of people/ graves, maps and news reports...
Its slowly becoming a history archive of this family, many years to go yet but It will keep growing...
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this is the post about the name Hartley I wrote a few pagers back, this is when I first saw the name of Walter Wiltshire, then I came across those two above, look how He is around Chesterfield, that's where Brampton is, that is part of a massive circle that they travelled including Nottingham where Arnold is in the other report
Oral history as past down was Williams Wife came from Scotland, in records She is said to be registered in Yorkshire, my Mother when young would plait Her hair and She would tell of the old history, my Mother telled me of these times, She said She was born round a place named Musselburgh in the mid to late 1800s, on a record that was shown to me it says Her Fathers name was Hartley, who Her Mother was I don't know, also the first name She was known by was not the one used on any record I have seen of Her, i think the two Williams are Her Husband and Son, who Walter is i don't know but Her Husband sure as lots of names so it could be Him, young William thoe is only about 14 not 20, and the name he gives as David could be a clue, my Mother telled of a young boy who died, I always thought She meant Her Mothers Son, but now it could mean Young WIlliam had a Brother, or his Grandad was named David Hartley and a Child that died was named after Him, who knows it could or could not be a clue, these are rip roaring Gipsy People of their own day, so the Hartleys of Scotland could be related to these great People, who the Hartleys are I do not know,
these are just small extracts from larger posts in this thread
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Nottinghamshire 1907
ALLEGED FALSE PRETENCES AT NEWARK.
David Hartley, alias Walter Wiltshire, of no fixed abode, was charged Newark Police-court this morning, with obtaining a guinea with false pretences, from Edmund Crow, saddler, Mill-gate, Newark. Prosecutor said that on Thursday morning prisoner came into his shop and said he was from Catesby and Co. with cork lino.
Nottingham 1910
NOTTINGHAM MAN CHARGED WITH AN OFFENCE COMMITTED IN 1903.
A case illustrative the long arm of the law came before Messrs. T. Ships tone and J. E. Pendleton at the Nottingham Summons Court to-dav, when William Wiltshire, alias Hartley, of 1, Kelk's-yard, Count-street, Nottingham, was summoned for using obscene language September 7th, 1903, and for assaulting Police-Constable Manners May 26th. The evidence showed that seven years ago the defendant did not appear answer (be summons, and warrant had been taken out against him. Derbyshire 1914
USELESS VARNISH.
William Wilsher (20), hawker, giving his address as 26, Bridgehouses, Sheffield, was charged at Chesterfield, to-day, with committing a very mean trick. Two charges of obtaining money by false pretences were preferred against the youth, who is the son of Sheffield hawkers. on Friday', the 13th inst., prisoner called at her house and asked if she wanted to buy some varnish, saying he was a varnisher, that he had been doing work at Mr. Logging house at Brampton, and that the varnish he had over his master was allowing him to sell. William Wilsher charged before as David Hartley
Derbyshire 1888
Horse Stealing at Wirksworth
Thomas Knight 33 alias Graham Tin Man was charged with stealing an horse the property of Sarah Wilshaw a widow, the prisoners sister is the proprietress of a traveling caravan stationed in a field, she employed him to look after the horse the horse was sold at Wirksworth market place to john Spencer, Knight was apprehended in Sheffield, the Jury found him guilty and he was sentenced to six months with hard labour, there was a large number of previous convictions, it was stated that they were not living together as Man and Wife
CAPTURE OF SUPPOSED HORSE STEALER. THIS DAY.
The borough forces, and Police-constable Wheatley, of the Derbyshire Constabulary, succeeded in arresting in Spring street a hawker named Thomas Knight on a charge of stealing a horse from Wirksworth . The horse has been recovered in Worksop. The accused is well known character.
Brampton Chesterfield Derbyshire 1866
Shocking Depravity
At the County Magistrates at Chesterfield Tuesday last.
Joseph Wiltshire 22 of Nottingham itinerant Gipsy besom maker and Emma Graham 34 alias knight pot hawker of south sea Hants the latter charged with having stolen five pounds three shillings the property of David Allen pot hawker of Boroughbridge Staffordshire in the Griffin inn Brampton and the former with having feloniously received the same, but the prosecutor on not appearing they were both discharged, it was stated that the male prisoner knocked him down and when on the floor the woman cut out his pockets, They were then charged by Maria Knight (wife of the male, and daughter of the female prisoner) with assaulting her Saturday night, it was stated that Wiltshire was living with his own Mother in law as Man and Wife, the case was dismissed as the parties did not appear.
1874 Brampton
Charge of Stealing a Donkey.
Thomas Graham and James Knight, two Gipsies, were brought up in custody on remand with stealing an ass belonging to George Thompson, Brampton, The defence was that the prosecutor, who had been drinking with the prisoners, had given them permission to sell the animal while he was intoxicated.The Bench considering the evidence was not sufficiently conclusive, dismissed the case.
1874 Derbyshire
Who Stole the Donkey
At the Magistrates' Clerk's Office, Chesterfield, two men named respectively James Knight and Thomas Graham, were each brought up charged with stealing a donkey, the property of a travelling hawker named James Wright.The evidence went to show that on Monday night the prosecutor bought an ass for 6s. which he saw in a field at Walton, and on the following morning he went for it, and it was nowhere to be found. On the previous evening he was in company with the prisoners, and he suspected them of taking 14s. and some coppers out of his pocket. George Beeley spoke to buying the ass from the two prisoners for 6d., on the previous morning, and he put it into the Royal Oak stable. Remanded till Saturday
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i have been looking at the Spencers for a time they sound like Smiths to me, also the Burches Birches up this way have the ring of the Smiths to, the mad ring is there, the Gipsys are mad to everyone, if you are not mad you will never learn enything, that sounds mad but thats just the way it is, i may just write back soon telling the real truth, but then again i am rather busy in my other researches, i will have to think about it, if you dont hear from me soon i will maybe write back next year
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i have been looking at the Spencers for a time they sound like Smiths to me, as are the Burches Birches, as are the Wilshers to, the mad ring is there, the Gipsys are mad to everyone, if you are not mad you will never learn enything, that sounds mad but thats just the way it is, i may just write back soon telling the real truth, but then again i am rather busy in my other researches, i will have to think about it, if you dont hear from mr soon i will maybe write back next year
I have a Liddia Wilsher birth 1908 marriage to a Charles spencer birth 1903, Liddia WIlsher parents are living in Caravan at Glebe Farm Old Whittington in 1939, Parents Thomas Wilsher 1891 and Liddia Higginbotto 1883 (second marriage of these two family names I have seen).
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i have found several records of the Higgingbothoms, i will not call it but think the name comes from a man, i have saw a real sad record later at Brampton, respect to all the People of the long yeares, r.i.p no matter who any one is or nothing the dead will always be respected, thats it, i have lots more records to of the Higgingbothoms, i have many records of many names, many names are good and were good with the Gipsies of the past, thats not what history wants you to know but who cares of their history
Derbyshire 1913
The Linoleum Layers
Charges Of False Pretences Dismissed
How goods were sold as result of "puffing", at. Whittington Moor, led to the appearance of two van-dwellers at the chesterfield County Police Court two charges of having obtained money by false pretence on November 27th last year with intent The names were Thomas Wiltshire and Thomas Higginbotham They pleaded not guilty to having obtained under such pretences 16s. 6d. from Herbart Collie, Whittington Moor labourer, and 12s. from Annie Shaw, wife of a shopkeeper, Whittington Moor. Both defendants were defended Mr A. F- Neal. From the evidence it appeared that the men called on the people from whom they obtained the money and told them that they were engaged with a number of men in laying linoleum at a large house in the district, and as there had been some left over they would sell the surplus for beer money divided among the workmen. The defendants said to be wearing white aprons, and they gave the impression that they were workmen. The linoleum was not-thoroughly examined by the purchasers before the defendants were paid the money for it. Mr collis, in his evidence, said Wiltshire told him that there were eight men and one boy working at the big house, and the linoleum he bought he stated it was worth £2. he asked 16s. 6d. for it 2s. for each of the men and 6d. for the boy. Mr Neal: Did you think these workmen were robbing their master' Witness Yes sir. Did you think they had got the right to sell their master's property for 16s. when it was worth £2 for beer? No answer. Did you believe the tale of the big house and they were working there, did you think you had the right to buy? did you think that it was cheap?No sir. What then Did you think it was dear?No sir, I never touched it. i thought it was all right. Now, what as made you regret it? do you think you paid too much for it? is that what the trouble is about? Yes- Now tell me straight is that why you are here because you bought it a bit too dear?Yes. Yes Well what possible case could you call after that? Ald. Markham: did you part with the money wisely. I dont know, sir. I thought it would be all right. Ald. Markham; Did you feel the linoleum? Witness: I never touched it. I never put my finger on it. Mrs Shaw deposed to paying 12s. for some of the linoleum. i was told that she was getting a bargain, but when she went to roll out the linoleum with a knife it did not need cutting. You could break it right across she said
Mr Neal: Did jou examine the oilcloth before you paid for it? Witness: No.I didnt till they had gone. In fact, you thought you had come across some respectable British working men who could sell their masters' property to get beer for themselfs. They looked like respectable working men. You dont tell the magistrates that tale do you?Yes I do. ... P.c. selvey spoke to Wiltshire at Brampton. with Higginbotham, some days after the sale of the linoleum. On being identified as one of the men who sold the linoleum, Wiltshire ran in one direction, and went into the Rodney yard The constable followed him. but was unable to catch him or Higginbotham, who ran in the opposite direction Mr Neal contended that there was no evidence that any statement made by the men was not true. probably it was not. but had not been made out there. "Men like these" he said."like many others they live by there wits, but if people are foolish enough buy things, because they think they are cheap, I ask you to say that there is no case made out. It is no offence in England to sell things too dear, or a good many shopkeepers. I think, would be here. (Laughter.) he admitted that the men had done some puffing, but that was no offence. If people, he said liked to buy pigs in a poke they must buy them. he pressed it as a question of law that there was not a statement made that amounted to false pretences. " Supposing, he added, "that these goods were worth twice as much? Mr Smith (the assistant magistrates clerk); They should not have been here then. (Laughter.) The Chairman (Aid. Markham) said the men had been very ably defended by Mr Neal. There was no doubt about it that they did obtain the mony by false pretences and by means of a trick, but the evidence was not sufficiently strong to convict. He had no doubt that the people had been defrauded by them. They would have to pay the costs
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theres Spencer as in Spencers, and Walter, and Brampton, the Fiar Ground is the Bold Rodney Ground, they had the Fair just over the road to, i have many records of the Woodwards, i dont know who they are thoe, they are related to more Gipsies, in the end everyone is related to everyone the stupid educated folk of the past done everyones head in and made most today like them
1911 Census-Fair Ground Brampton Chesterfield
Sarah Smith-Age 28
Florence Ann Woodward-Age 15
Selina Woodward-Age 12
Joseph Wiltshire-Age 69
Ryah Wiltshire-Age 60
Joseph Wiltshire-Age 42
Joseph Wiltshire-Age 26
Tom Wiltshire-Age 40
Fred Wiltshire-Age 38
Frank Wiltshire-Age 36
Henry Wiltshire-Age 34
Jim Wiltshire-Age 32 (James Wiltshire)
Billy Wiltshire-Age 30 ( William Wiltshire)
Walter Wiltshire-Age 28
Henry Wiltshire-Age 26
Emma Wiltshire-Age 24
William Smith-Age 26
Madaline Smith-Age 29
Mareny Smith
John Smith-Age 30
Leanor Smith-Age23
Spencer Smith
my Arnt was called Ria like the name above,
1911* Address 3 H 1 Court Bard st Park Sheffield Yorkshire
Wilsher William Head married 35 pedlar salesman born Yorkshire
Wilsher Maria Wife married 34 pedlar salesman born Corn in Hull
Wilsher Rebecca Daughter 14 born Sheffield Yorkshire
Wilsher William 12 school born Sheffield Yorkshire
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The Rodney Yard Brampton near Chesterfield is one of the old stopping Grounds where lots of my Mothers Relatives passed through over many years of travel, it as long since gone but by using the maps online it is easily found, if you go back in the posts I have wrote you will find more information, Rodney Yard the Peoples and their Story's must be remembered and preserved for the future Generations, i never new of this place nor did I ever hear my Mother say She new, then one day I found it, I to have found many interesting story's of the history and the Peoples that connect in many ways to Brampton, I know I said I was going to write a great account up of these times and People but I will just put up now my last words for another Person in this time or the future to do a far more in-depth analytical research that will help all the Relatives connected to the story's of Brampton,
if you go back many pages in this thread I talk of the Bold Rodney Public House, there is a Great Yard at the back of this Pub, this became a place that Gipsies who like the Wiltshire's who roamed over several Counties temporally used as a place to keep their Caravans, this yard in time became to, a sort of a settled community to all types of Hawkers and People, some of the times are of great sadness, others, well Gipsies I have found somehow possess in their life the Greatest of humour,
this place is rich in history, you can find the People I write about well back into the 1800s, and forwards to the 1920s, there to are many Big Names and story's of People like the Lees and Smiths who stopped there, I found true story's to of the Woodward's and Wiltshire's, there is much to learn from the story of Brampton, I was told the new building on the site of the old yard were erected in the 1990s, I would like Someone one day to research this place, I was going to do this but now leave it to you, I know you can do it,
I found and have spoken to People who lived and grew up around this place and through my research on the internet and oral history of this time in researching I have found there were several things that all came together to make Brampton the hub for the Gipsies over hundreds of years,
this in what I am telling you is just an outline and a start for your Great Research,
in the fields around Brampton there is a very special clay that was dug from the earth to make pots, mugs bowls and the like, it was renowned for its looks as the unique Chesterfield Earthenware, also there was an abundance of local coal that was next to the clay fields, they the People of Chesterfield then made many many places to make pots, also there were natural waterways that ran through this place that provided the water needed in the process of manufacture of the pots than intern were fired in the kilns, it was a special place where everything in nature came together to create this hub, a place Gipsies found and exploited, I have found much information about the history of clay, coal , waterways and all the peoples, the Gipsies were one of those Peoples, I do know some of you on rootschat have spoken of not all pot dealers are Gipsies, I to have found your research to be true
I remember how the Great Men I found in the 1700s the Herons and the Boswells, and how the Boswell Man said of Himself He was a Man who went about the Country selling mugs, I have researched and read much up of the history of Scotland over hundreds of years, through this research long ago Gipsies became known as Muggers for being People who sell pots and mugs, then down through the years it became a bad name to be called a Mugger, but really the very old Gipsies were the Muggers for it was them who sold the mugs and pots, I have read Great information about the times that supports this from long ago, it was none Gipsies who called the Old Gipsies muggers, then years later mugger became a rallying cry for others to say you dirty muggers are not real Gipsies, I think through my research people alive now have been influenced by the wrong teachings of others, this is my view through reading the old accounts of the greatest of minds and writers, unknown to many and who's words of history are hidden in dusty papers and silenced, so Brampton its story's and history, may be used as an example, these storys will be replicated around Britain, you will find your People, you will find their history, many many Horses and trades were needed in the history of Brampton, I have found so much, but I will leave it for you, I respect all the Gipsies who passed through that place, I also hope this is just the start for the true story of their life to be told in an honest way, I am just summarising the many thousands of words I was going to write, there is so much more, I will summarise my other researches soon and then I will trouble you no more, try not to pick at my words but use them as a starting point
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjTwv3u9rzSAhUiJcAKHaIFCMEQFggoMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mernick.org.uk%2FBrownJugs%2FBrampton%2FBrampton.htm&usg=AFQjCNGiZeMxMJ36YsM0a8Iejut9bipcRQ
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjV3vCb8bzSAhUsKsAKHXddBlcQFgghMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.picturethepast.org.uk%2Ffrontend.php%3Fkeywords%3DRef_No_increment%3BEQUALS%3BDCCC001305%26pos%3D2%26action%3Dzoom&usg=AFQjCNEZCC6LSpc_KlHw8I6Tk2osDYAazA
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Below is more of the research Sue found, you talk of the Allens as relations well there they are with the Knights, i have located some of the old grounds where they used to stop at, the Knights are a mystrey, everyone is, whoever cracks the code of all these families will have todo a lot of work, you never rearly hear anyone mention any of the names we talk about yet when you check the records i find and census reports Sue as found you think the story is just beginning, the Knights Allens Woodwards Wilshers Holmes Elliotts Heapes, and more well they seem to have a big history, you do hear a lot about the Elliotts, its a great name, i like the ring to it, and i will put a link on to the Heapes from the Gypsy Genealogy web site
1881
Name David ALLEN
Relation Head Marital Status M Gender Male Age 42
Birthplace pworth, Lincoln, England
Occupation Hawker In Earthenware
Name Harriett ALLEN
Relation Wife Marital Status M Gender Female Age 33
Birthplace Sheffield, York, England
Occupation Hawkers Wife
Name George ALLEN
Relation Son Gender Male Age 9
Birthplace Dronfield, Derby, England
Occupation Assistant Hawker
Name James ALLEN
Relation Son Gender Male Age 5
Birthplace Glossop, Derby, England
Name James KNIGHT
Relation Relative Marital Status U Gender Male Age 19
Birthplace Sheffield, York, England
Occupation Hawker
Dwelling Radford Marsh Caravan Census Place Lenton, Nottingham, England
I have read that Radford derived its name of the "red ford" from the Mottled Bed Sandstone in the high cliffs, where the Alfreton Road crossed the Leen by a ford.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101603268
when you go on this link above just click on the blue message in the right corner and the old map will come up showing you RadfordMarsh, it allows you to zoom in to.
There was an Old way from Lenton to Radford the Marsh Road or Radford Marsh. Radford used to be in the priory of Lenton so sometimes Radford is talked about as Lenton in the Old writings, in the early 1900s i think it was then that the name changed to Faraday Road where the Worled famouse Raleigh bikes were made, now in this time next to this Road is a new housing estate, the road named as Radmarsh Road, i think from what i have read from many Old refferances there was once an Old Camping Ground at Radford, in the Fields around the area known as Radford Marsh. Another bit of information for others is that there was an Old Lane known as Outgang Lane. Outgang Lane is wrote about in 1488 known as the Outgoinges of Radford and Lenton leading North toward the Linges, the Lings was the Old name of the Forest, meaning where the heather grew, so look out in the census or other records for names like Radford Marsh or Outgang Lane.
ps...you must be careful with records though, there always telling lies
Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough Thursday 2 December 1915
TRACED BY FINGER PRINTS-Charges preferred at Stockton to-day against James Allen 22, John Boswell 22, and also James Smith 21. The defendants were further charged under the Aliens Restriction Act. On enquiries being made to Scotland Yard it was found that Allens proper name was Lowther, Smiths real name was Wilshaw, and Boswell was Wilkinson. Defendants were natives of Sheffield and were strangers to the Town; they had very bad Police records.
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This is more from Radford
Nottinghamshire Guardian-Thursday 10 January 1861
Shire Hall, Nottingham.
Sat.-(Before R Birkin, S.B.Wild, W. Needam, and W.Hannay, Esqs.)
Radford. Life in the Gipsy Camp.-A gipsy named John Gray, of sombre cast of contenance, appeared in answer to a charge of assaulting a woman named Charlotte Hammond, whom he had espoused in conformity with the marriage laws and customs of gisydom. The complainant, a fortune-teller by profession, stated that on Tuesday night, the defendant struck her and injured her very much about the head, she was living with him at Radford at the time of the assault. The defendant commenced beating the womans daughter very violently, wherest the complainant became irritated and declared she would not stand by to see him brutally ill-treat her own child in that manner. The complainant gave satisfactory proof of defendants ill-usage, and said he had behaved to her like a demon. He denied the charge, but the bench placed to much reliance on the womans testimony to doubt that considerable violence had been inflicted upon her, and the defendant was fined 16s, 6d. Including expenses.
Nottingham Journal Monday 7Jauary 1861
Disturbance among the Gipsies.
John Gray was charged with threatening language to Charlotte Hammond, on Tuesday evening last, at Radford. The parties were of the gipsy tribe, and during the disturbance one with another in their camp, the defendant threatened to murder complainant. After hearing the case, the magistrate ordered the defendant to be bound over in his own recognizances to keep the peace towards the complainant for six months. And to pay the expenses, amounting to 16s, 6d.
Katherine Briggs Dictionary of British Folk Tales in the English Language, Taylor Francis, 1991.
Reuben Gray, Gus Gray Old Radford, Nottingham.
Sunday 26th November, 1815 St. Peters Baptized Mary Ann Boswell -Zecharias - Sarah Boswell Radford Nottingham
Nottingham Journal Tuesday 22 March Nottinghamshire Guardian Friday 25 March 1881 extracts
John Boswell a gipsy was charged with cruelty to a horse,-Sergeant Aldridge met the prisoner at Fawcett Street Radford, he was in charge of a horse attached to a van laden with tents and other things with which he travelled with, prisoner said he was on the way to Retford
Retford is where a Wiltshire married a Heapes, there are many of the Elliotts around there to
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the article above about Charlotte Hammond and John Gray is I think, related to the article I am about to show you, the Shire Hall is next to St Marys overlooking the old Narrow Marshes, you can now visit the Shire Hall and go into the same cells as they were remanded to, plus you may also go in the very same court room where the accounts I write of took place, the Shire Hall is now called the Galleries of Justice, its a museum, I walk in a City of many ghosts, everywhere I know and go was once walked and known by the Peoples I write about, there everywhere
http://www.galleriesofjustice.com/
click on this link above to learn of the Old ShireHall now the Galleries of Justice Museum
Nottinghamshire Guardian Thursday 21 October 1858
The Zingari.A curious scene transpired at the ShireHall on Saturday last. An athletic fellow, standing very little short of six feet, named John Gray, was charged before the right hon. Lord Belper, and a full Bench of Magistrates, with assaulting Levina Lee, another member of the Zingari or Gipsy tribe. The complainant stated that Gray, who had been in their camp three yeares, had been reproved for walking out at night with her sister, and in consequence of this he attacked Levina and lacerated her arm. Witness showed several marks of blows, and ges-ticulated violently. It appeared from the evidence of another witness who was called, that Gray had grasp of a bill hook in his hand and threatened to do murder with it, is menaces being directed towards Levina Lee. Gray prayed the Magistrates to remand him till Saturday in order to bring witnesses for his defence, which was accordingly done.-Vashti Lee, the sister who had been the cause of all this violence, was then put in the dock on a charge pre-ferred by her own mother of stealing a valuable ring. She had the aquiline nose, chiselled features, and expressive face, which are generally the characteristics of this wander-ing race; dressed with great taste, wearing a feathered hat. Her mother said she was her own child, adding with some feeling, I would not hurt she. The Bench, who appeared to be greatly interested in the case, demanded the particulars, which the old woman declined to give, repeat-ing, she my own child, I would not hurt she. The daughter then gave an account of how she became possessed of the jewel. It originally belonged to her grandmother, whom she tended in her last sickness, but no one was present at her death. She left no will, dying in the middle of the night. The ring was pledged at pawnbrokers in Lincoln, and redeemed by herself, for 8s.6d. As com-plainant declined to press the charge, she was set at liberty, and the mother demanded the ring. My ring, no gentle-men my ring if you please, my ring! Exclaimed the black eyed daughter; and as it was handed to her at the noble Chairmans request, she burst into tears, and shaking her finger at her mother, said you want to punish me, but ya cant. Never mind Vashti, never mind, exclaimed the rebating voice of her dark adorer as he was conveyed to his remanded cell.
then I just looked on RootsChat Archives and have been reading through this thread, once again I don't know who is who, I was only looking for camp sites round Nottingham, but you never know some of the information contained in the stories I write about may be of help in your research http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=332980.0
Nottingham shire Guardian Thursday 28 October 1858
The Gipsy Again- At the ShireHall, on Saturday last, John Gray was charged on remand with assaulting Levina Lee, who did not appear in support of the charge. He had been a prisoner a week on this accusation, having requested the Magistrates to remand him for that period in order to procure witnesses for the defence. Another charge was also made against him-that of breaking the peace in an assault upon Jacob Kirk, with a bill hook, at Bulwell, on Friday week, but the complainant appeared and said he did not wish to press the charge, but merely sought to have the prisoner bound over. As he did not enter into the particulars, the bench said Gray would be dismissed on promising not to offend again.- Gipsy; I will. I'll say nothing to him no more. I don't blame dis gentleman.-Lord Belper: There is 12s. to pay-Gray said he had not got the money, but his mother, a wizened frightful- looking old jade, came forwards and produced a sovereign from the inner folds of a vile dirty handkerchief, and the prisoner was then discharged.
ps, Bulwell is just past Basford, Basford is next to Radford, Hucknall comes after Bulwell, Hucknall is the Boswells land, remember all these places, plus Arnold, they will assist you in your search
I did find in the Nottingham Evening Post, Friday 20 January 1893 another Vashti, She was living or staying at 1 Bailey-Street Old Basford, and was a Fortune-teller, She was known as Vashti Butler-Gipsy, I think She was of the famous Derbyshire Boswells,
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below is the story of Young Moses Holmes, my Mother spoke well of the Holmes with Great Respect
and then i will put on more of the census reports that Sue found, She wrote all the writings on the Romany Genes web site and once wrote a big article about the Herons, Hearns for the Romany Family Society.
Nottinghamshire Guardian -Thursday 16 May 1861
Moses Holmes, a young urchin of the gipsy tribe, and twelve years' of age, was charged by phillip scarborough, gamekeeper, with having stolen that morning, at the parish of Sutton- in Ashfield, stolen 14lbs: weight of bones from a field in the occupation of sarah bagshaw. committed for one months hard labour in Southwell house of correction.
all writing below is again from Sue
Will post what i have saved most is in order some may be random
1871*Attercliffe cum Darnall/Christchurch-Yorkshire
William Wilshire 50 B Bineton, Lincolnshire Widower Chairbottomer
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1861*Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire
Alfred Heaps abt 1836 Snelston, DerbyshireHead/ Hawker
Ellen Heaps abt 1841 Lincoln, LincolnshireWife
Alfred Heaps abt 1868 Varions, DerbyshireSon
Eliza Heaps abt 1861 Varions, DerbyshireDaughter
Ellen Heaps abt 1841 Lincoln, LincolnshireWife
Emma Heaps abt 1863 Varions, Derbyshire Daughter
Henry Heaps abt 1867 Varions, Derbyshire Son
Jane Heaps abt 1858 Daughter
Mary Ann Heaps abt 1860 Varions, Derbyshire Daughter
Selena Heaps abt 1869 Varions, DerbyshireDaughter
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Joseph Wilshaw 24 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Jane Wilshaw 26 b b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Mary A Wilshaw 3 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Frederick Wilshaw 1 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
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William Holmes 45 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Jane Holmes 29 wife b Barnsley, Yorkshire
Issac Wiltshire 40 lodger b Wombwell, Derbyshire
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John Wilshaw 37 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Mary Wilshaw 38 wife b Sheffield, Yorkshire
James Wilshaw 11 son b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Sarah A Wilshaw 8 dau b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Herbert Wilshaw 3 son b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Emily Wilshaw 8 Mo dau b Sheffield, Yorkshire
1871*Longdon- Staffordshire(Other hawkers on page including Heaps)
Joseph Wilshaw 35 b Notts Nottinghamshire hawker
Maria Wilshaw 30 b Wath, Yorkshire hawker
Joseph Wilshaw 6
Thomas Wilshaw 4
Fred Wilshaw 1
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1881*Brightside Bierlow, Yorkshire=Street address:19 Slancer St
Joseph Willshaw 37 hawker
Maria Willshaw 32 hawker b Sheffield
Joseph Willshaw 15
Tom Willshaw 14
Fred Willshaw 9
Tim Willshaw 6
William Willshaw 3
Infant Willshaw
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1891*
Joseph Welshaw 49 Peddler/Hawker b Ackworth, Yorkshire
Maria Welshaw 42 wife b Sheffield
Jim Welshaw 16
Bill Welshaw 13 All said b Sheffield*
Walter Welshaw 11
Emma Welshaw 6
Henry Welshaw 4
-----------------------------
1901: CENSUS* INDEXED AS WILT-SHAW SO DOUBLE BARRELLED!!!
.Nottinghamshire, England Civil parish: Pleasley Ecclesiastical parish: Shirebrook Holy Trinity Town: Shirebrook County/Island: Derbyshire Country:
* Lots there in caravans:+
William Wilt Shaw 21 B Woodsetts, Derbyshire pot hawker
Maria R Wilt Shaw 20 Hul Yorkshire
Rebecca Wilt Shaw 4 Sheffield, Yorkshire
William Wilt Shaw 2 b Notinghamshire
*
Thomas Wilt Shaw 37 b Sheffield, Yorkshire 27 hawker
Margaret Wilt Shaw 20 wife b South Pool, Yorkshire image i think 30?
Emma Willt Shaw 2 months b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Harriett Wilt Shaw 10 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Julia Wilt Shaw 2 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Margaret Wilt Shaw 5 b Nottinghamshire,
Mathilda Wilt Shaw 11 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Thomas Wilt Shaw 7 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
---------------------------------------------
Knight may be related?
Alfred Tyler 35 trav pot higgler b Leics
Lucy Tyler 29 wife b Swadlincote, Derbyshire
*
Walter Knight 33 coal miner b Romsley, Worcestershire
Martha Knight 32 b Brampton, Derbyshire
Ada Knight 2 b Shirebrook, Derbyshire
Leonard Knight 3 months b Shirebrook, Derbyshire
Mary Knight 5 b Brampton, Derbyshire
Robert B Knight 12 b Brampton, Derbyshire
William Knight 8 b Brampton, Derbyshire
**
Joseph Wilt Shaw 56 B Darrington, Yorkshire ( THIS IS HIS DAD?)
Maria H OR k ?.57 wife b Bolsover, Derbyshire
Emma dau 18 BWoodsetts, Derbyshire
Henry 16 SON B Woodsetts, Derbyshire
*
MARRIAGE 1864 ROTHERHAM JOSEPH WILSHAW WED MARIA KNIGHT
-
---------------------------------------------------------
ARE THESE THE SAME JOSEPH?
1861*
1861*Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire
Joseph Wilshaw 24 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Jane Wilshaw 26 b b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Mary A Wilshaw 3 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Frederick Wilshaw 1 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
///////
William Holmes 45 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Jane Holmes 29 wife b Barnsley, Yorkshire
Issac Wiltshire 40 lodger b Wombwell, Derbyshire
////////
John Wilshaw 37 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Mary Wilshaw 38 wife b Sheffield, Yorkshire
James Wilshaw 11 son b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Sarah A Wilshaw 8 dau b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Herbert Wilshaw 3 son b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Emily Wilshaw 8 Mo dau b Sheffield, Yorkshire
1871* Longdon, Staffordshire (SLEPT IN FIELD IN CARAVANS)
Joseph Wilshaw 35 b Notts, Nottinghamshire Hawker
Maria Wilshaw 30 b Wath, Yorkshire Hawker
Joseph Wilshaw 6 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Thomas Wilshaw 4 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Fred Wilshaw 1b Sheffield, Yorkshire
///////////
Alfred Heaps abt 1836 Snelston, DerbyshireHead/ Hawker
Ellen Heaps abt 1841 Lincoln, LincolnshireWife
Alfred Heaps abt 1868 Varions, DerbyshireSon
Eliza Heaps abt 1861 Varions, DerbyshireDaughter
Ellen Heaps abt 1841 Lincoln, LincolnshireWife
Emma Heaps abt 1863 Varions, Derbyshire Daughter
Henry Heaps abt 1867 Varions, Derbyshire Son
Jane Heaps abt 1858 Daughter
Mary Ann Heaps abt 1860 Varions, Derbyshire Daughter
Selena Heaps abt 1869 Varions, DerbyshireDaughter
///////
David Allen abt 1841 Hepworth Lincolnshire Head Hawker
Elizabeth Allen abt 1863 Sheffield Yorkshire Daughter
Harriett Allen abt 1845 Sheffield Yorkshire Wife
Henry Allen abt 1860 Sheffield Yorkshire Son
/
=============================================
1881*Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire
Joseph Wilshaw abt 1837 Sheffield YorkshireHead Razor hatter?
Jane Wilshaw abt 1836 Sheffield YorkshireWife
Mary A. Wilshaw abt 1858 Sheffield YorkshireDaughter
Charles Wilshaw abt 1875 Sheffield, YorkshireSon
Isaac Wilshaw abt 1866 Sheffield, Yorkshire Son
James Wilshaw abt 1868 Sheffield, Yorkshire Son
Percy Wilshaw abt 1880 Sheffield Yorkshire Grandson
Samuel Wilshaw abt 1873 Sheffield Yorkshire Son
Sarah J. Wilshaw abt 1862 Sheffield Yorkshire Daughter
~~~~~~~~---------
1891*Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire
Joseph Wilshaw 54 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Jane Wilshaw 56 b Sheffield, Yorkshire wife
Isaac Wilshaw 25 Son
James Wilshaw 23 Son b Sheffield
Samuel Wilshaw 18 Son b Sheffield
Charles Wilshaw 16 Son b Sheffield
Percy Wilshaw 11 g/son b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Fanny Farebrother 15 servant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1901*Yorkshire.Ecclesall
Joseph Wilshaw 64 RAZOR GRINDERB Sheffield
Mary S Wilshaw 51 WIFE B Sheffield
Arthur C Middleton 20 step son b Liverpool, Lancashire
Percy Wilshaw 21 GRAND/SON B Sheffield
************************************
This is the Percy above I think in 1911 as right age and birth place?
WILSHAW, Samuel Head Married15 years 38 1873 Insurance Agent Sheffield Yorkshire
WILSHAW, Florence Wife Married 36 1875 Sheffield Yorkshire
WILSHAW, Percy Nephew Single 31 1880 Razor Hafter Sheffield Yorkshire
WILSHAW, Joseph Son Single 6 1905 Sheffield Yorkshire
WILSHAW, Reginald Son 4 1907 Sheffield Yorkshire
LEACH, Ivy Guardian Single 8 1903 Sheffield Yorkshire
Registration District:Ecclesall Bierlow Sub District:Sharrow Enumeration District:
Address:18 Salmon Street Sheffield Yorkshire England County:Yorkshire (West riding)
-
People not in houses*
1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier
Lidia Willshaw abt 1812 Codbrough, Nottinghamshire, Wife
Joseph Willshaw abt 1846 Darrington, Yorkshire Son
Lidia Willshaw abt 1848 Lincoln, Lincolnshire Daughter
Walter Nelson * abt 1829 Scotland Son-in-Law
Lotis Nelson abt 1829 Stowe, Lincolnshire, Daughter
Henry Nelson abt 1853 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
George Nelson abt 1854 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
Harriet Nelson abt 1856 Carlton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
Mary Nelson abt 1858 Pontefract, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
//
William Blewitt abt 1809 widow Stamford, Lincolnshire, Head tinner & Brazier
Sarah Blewitt abt 1837 widow London, Middlesex, Daughter-in-Law
Valuza Blewitt abt 1856 York, Yorkshire, England Granddaughter
Enis Blewitt abt 1860 Hull, Yorkshire, England
//
John Lee abt 1797 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Head
Charlott Lee abt 1791 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Wife
Tenna Lee abt 1834 Livingston, Norfolk, Daughter
Mary Boss abt 1791 Farnham, Suffolk, Widow
John Phillips abt 1832 Thorne, Yorkshire Tinner & Brazier
1861**Town: Pontefract (People sleeping in Tents)
County/Island: Yorkshire
William Willshaw 50 hd Tinner and Brazier
Lidia Willshaw 49 wife
Joseph Willshaw 15 son
Lidia Willshaw 13 dau
Walter Nelson 32 son in law born SCOTLAND **
Lotis Nelson 32 dau
Henry Nelson 8 g son
George Nelson 7 g son
Harriet Nelson 5 g/dau
Mary Nelson 3 g/dau
~~~~~~~~-------------------
Charlott Lee 70 /abt 1791 Woodbridge, Suffolk Wife
John Lee 70/ abt 1797 Woodbridge, Suffolk Head Tinner and Brazier
Tenna Lee 27 /abt 1834 Livingston, Norfolk Daughter
~~~~~~~~--------------------
Mary Boss 70 widow b Farnham, Suffolk
John Philips 29 b Thorne, Yorkshire Tinner & Brazier
~~~~~~~~-------------------
William Blewitt 52 Stamford, Lincolnshire Head Tinner & Brazier
Sarah Blewitt 24 London, Middlesex Daughter-in-law
Enis Blewitt 1 Hull, Yorkshire,
Valuza Blewitt 5 Sarah York Yorkshire Granddaughter
~~~~~~~~-------------------
1871*Parish:Doncaster Ecclesiastical parish:St George *:Yorkshire
Gypsies *Camp in Cherry Lane*
Walter Nelson 45 Hawker(Gypsy)
Lettuce Nelson 43
Henry Nelson 17
Harriet Nelson 13
George Nelson 12
Jemima Nelson 10
David Nelson 8
Alexander Nelson 6
Betsey Nelson 2
-----------------------------------------------
1881*Mexborough, Yorkshire
Walter Nelson abt 1826 Durham, Head besom maker
Clar Nelson abt 1828 Thurnsby, Yorkshire, Wife ?why Clar?
Alice Nelson abt 1865 Doncaster, Yorkshire,
Betsy Nelson abt 1870 Eastwood, Yorkshire,
Thomas Nelson abt 1873 Eastwood, Yorkshire, Son
William Nelson abt 1874 Mexbro, Yorkshire, Son
~~~~~~~~-------
1881*Parish: Thorne County/Island: Yorkshire
Alexander Nelson 67 Tin Plate worker born Kilroy, Scotland
~~~~~~~~-----------
1891*Civil Parish: Mexborough
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Yorkshire
Walter Nelson 66 hd b Carington Lam, Durham, besom maker
Lettie 64 wife
Thomas 17b
Wm Nelson 15 coll lab
-----------------------------------------------------------------
George Nelson 29 b Royston, Yorkshire colliery labourer(caravan in Field)
lavina 27
Thomas 10
Lilly 11
Grtrude Nelson 5
Harriett Nelson 3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Adams 49 pot hawker
Jane Adams 39
George Adams 20
Robert Adams 18
Jane Adams 15
Joseph Adams 2
~~~~~~~~---------
1901*Mexborough St John the Baptist *Yorkshire
George Nelson 45 colliery labourer
Thomas Nelson 17
Gertrude Nelson 15
Harriett Nelson 12
Ephraim Nelson 8
Oscar Nelson 4
George Nelson 1 month
Walter Nelson 80 father bon scotland No occupation
1861*Town:Wath upon Dearne:Yorkshire
James Knight 44 b Chesterfield, Derbyshire Earthenware Dealer
Emma Knight 36 b Portsea Hampshire
Harriet Knight 14
Maria Knight 12 dau b Sheffield
Henry Knight 10
Tom Knight 7
Bill Knight 2
--------------------------
Josiah Blewitt 1801 In A Lane, Lincolnshire,Head Scissor Grinder
Sarah Blewitt 1793 Hoyland, Yorkshire Wife
Ann Blewitt 1838 Lincolnshire, Daughter
---------------------------------------------------------
-
1851*Ashover, Derbyshire
James Holmes b Ashover, Derbyshire, Head
Ann Holmes b Ashover, Derbyshire, Daughter
Sarah Holmes b 1838 Ashover, Derbyshire, Daughter
///
William Knight b Beeston, Nottinghamshire Head
Harriet Knight b Arnold Nottingham
Ann Knight b Arnold, Nottinghamshire, Daughter
Fanny Knight b Wellington, Derbyshire, Daughter
Henry Knight b Wellington, Derbyshire, Son b Ashover,
Maria Knight b Wellington, Derbyshire, England Daughter
This is Fannys bap*
FANNY KNIGHT Christening: 16/61839 Arnold, Nottingham Parents: WILLIAM KNIGHT Mother: HARRIET
other baps there include*(Confusing as Arnold down for Harriet and rest Wellington?)
2. JAMES KNIGHT - Christening: 06 MAY 1827 Arnold, Nottingham
3. JOSEPH KNIGHT Gender: Male Christening: 14 FEB 1813 Arnold, Nottingham
4. MARY ANN KNIGHT Is this Maria?)Gender: Female Christening: 07 JUL 1844 Arnold, Nottingham,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1861*Think this is her *
George Mann 40
Ann Mann 34
Charles Mann 13
Harriett Mann 10
John Henry Mann 6
Fanny Mann 4
Elizabeth Mann 9 Mo
Maria Knight 15 boarder b Ashover, Derbyshire
John Heaps m Cinementi Boswell 22 Sep 1828
All Saints, Derby, Derbyshire,
-------------------------------------
Elizabeth Heap- bp 01 Apr 1801
Snelston, Derbyshire
Mother Sarah Heap
--Dont know about being remembered lol ,You need to write books to be in history lol , you still have away with words:) you must mean this Hawthorn
Hawthorn Smith b 1917 Southwell Mother's Maiden Name:Wilsher
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http://www.gypsygenealogy.com/showarticle.php?article_id=100
above another great link about the Heapes from the fine web site the Gypsy Genealogy, it mentions many locations that you should look for, it is jam packed with great information
Nottingham Journal
Saturday 25 April 1863
Harworth http://southwellchurches.nottingham.ac.uk/harworth/hlocn.php
http://southwellchurches.nottingham.ac.uk/harworth/hpics.php
Gipsy Wedding_ This quiet little village, on Monday last, was the scene of great attractions, having been announced that a Gipsy wedding would take place at 11 o'clock that morning. The banns of the happy pair, who were camping in the neighborhood, had been duly published in Harworth Church, and the names given, Goliah Heaps and Matilda Elliott, the latter being Cousin of Holmes, the noted horse dealer. At the time appointed the Village seemed alive to what was about to take place, work rested for a while, and many sight_seeing strangers suddenly made their appearance so that the road from the inn to the church was thickly hoed with a mass of persons. Meantime, the respected Curate, the Rev. R. R. Moore, was waiting at the alter, when it was heard," they are coming". Immediately every available place was taken up, and the Church was so crowded that the Bridal party could scarcely pass. In a few moments, a young healthy, well_built Woman, made her appearance before the alter, accompanied by her Father, and followed by her Sister and her intended, a fine looking fellow, she was neatly attired in a spotted muslin dress with scarf to match, white silk bonnet, black kid boots, and a bunch of flowers in her hand, the men wore black cloth, white flowers and gloves, and appeared very respectable. At the close of the ceremony, it was found that none of the party could either read nor write. After a few moments delay, they steadily withdrew, followed by a great company of people,. Leaving the Church-Yard a complete shower of old boots and shoes were seen flying in all directions, but to heighten the scene, two men walked close behind the party playing a merry tune with-tin whistles, till they arrived at the Galway Arms,
where and hot dinner of roast beef and plum pudding was provided for fourteen. The remainder of the day was spent in merry making, during the evening crowds of people visited the Inn, to catch a glimpse of the party. Such occurrence of a Gipsy wedding as never been known to take place in Harworth before, so says that mysterious personage the oldest inhabitant. At an early hour the next day, the camp broke on, the Bridal party going Westward and the other Eastward.
just a few Extracts below to show Relatives, this Great Gipsy Family, i have many records of them and will put them on to help you in your research
Derby Courier 1 April 1865
Eckington Petty Sessions- Extract
Two Hawkers Elliott and Heaps-charged with stealing the carcass of a dead sheep.
Derby Mercury 3 May 1865
Coroners Inquest- Extract
Sarah Heaps, Gipsy, called up as a witness, Sarah said she lived with her Sister Father and Mother at Heage, they are lodging with her cousin George Heaps.
In 1861-62 in several papers , Priscilla Heaps, Gipsy Fortuneteller, on the run, for in 1856 She duped the wife of a farmer out of 43 pounds, she told the woman the money was bewitched, the answer was to hand over the money, Priscilla was at-large until November 61, in 62 She now faced the Court. r.i.p
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you write about the Holmes, Sue above as written of them to from the census reports She as found, below is small extracts i have found for you to read also, they may help you to find what you seek
Sheffield Independent Thursday 18 March 1880
Worksop Hunted Game with a Dog.William Holmes known also as " Gipsy Holmes," who travels the country trading in horses
Derbyshire Courier Saturday 1 November 1879
Game Tresspass Elliott and Holmes Supt. Carlino said both men were gipsies, and it was with a very great difficulty that they had been able to serve the summons on the defendant. They had not yet succeeded in serving a summons on Holmes.
Sheffield independent Saturday 22 April 1871
WORKSOP. At this court, on Wednesday, William Holmes, alias Gipsy Holmes, was fined for allowing a number of young horses to Stray
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald Saturday 5 March 1870
Death of a Well-known Character." Old Billy Holmes," Gipsy and horse dealer, and "Old Betty Holmes," his wife, have been very extensively known for many years in most parts of England, and also in Wales and Ireland too. For some time past named personage, "Old Betty," has been in a very precarious state of health, and on Sunday morning last she ceased to live. She was interred at Bolsover Church on Wednesday, in the presence of a large number of spectators. The funeral cortege was very extensive, the "Romany" tribe being strongly represented.
Derby Mercury 21 March 1866
EXTRAORDINARY CASE OF FORTUNE-TELLING. A swarthy gipsy, who gave the name of Mary Ann Holmes, was brought up on a charge of pretending to tell fortunes.
Nottingham Guardian 7 October 1864
CAUNTON. Distressing Death of a Gipsy. For some time past William Holmes, the well-known gipsy horse dealer, has, along with his family and a retinue of vans and horses, been camping in the yard of the Plough Inn on Sunday morning Dr. Beveridge visited and pronounced the girl to be in danger from small-pox. After great suffering, the poor girl died in the afternoon of the same day; her gipsy relations standing round in the open air weeping bitterly, and forcibly reminding one of those touching lines in the " Negro's Complaint" " Fleecy locks and black complexion Cannot forfeit Nature's claim ; Skins may differ, but affection Dwells in white and black the same." It is hard, perhaps, to measure the doings of these rude followers of camp life with the habits of more civilized people, The deceased was very decently and respectably interred in Caunton churchyard on Tuesday afternoon. The relatives appeared in respectable mourning, and the corpse was carried by young women in white hoods. Much grief was manifested by the mourners at the grave, and all passed off in a very decorous manner.
Nottinghamshire Guardian Thursday 10 February 1859
Gipsy's Wedding. Ann Holmes, " queen of the gipsies" in this neighbourhood.
Derbyshire Courier Saturday 2 June 1855
Releasing Sheep from a Pound.Elizabeth Holmes was charged. Defendant belongs to the well-known family of the Holmes, generally called "Gipsy Holmes, whose usual locality is in the neighbourhood of Bolsover, which they have infested, to the no small discomfort of the land occupier, for years.
Friday 23 April 1852 Lincolnshire Chronicle
Gipsy Wedding at Caunton.On Monday the 12th inst, Samuel Holmes, son of Gipsy Holmes, of horse-dealing notoriety Considerable excitement was occasioned in the surrounding villages, and curiosity raised its highest pitch to witness on the arrival of the wedding party at Caunton church. several hundred respectable people, dressed in their holiday attire, assembled to celebrate the gipsy wedding. Holmes provided an 18-gallon barrel of ale and a liberal supply of gin for his friends. A fiddler being in attendance, dancing was got up and kept going with great spirit until It was dark
Derbyshire Couier Saturday 11 February 1843
Mr John Holmes, horse dealer, Miss Lydia Parker, both of Sutton Scarsdale, married on Wednesday last
Derbyshire Courier Saturday 17 June 1843
John Holmes, of Scarcliffe, a boy, was charged with wilfully damaging a field the property of Mr. Scorer, of Scarcliffe. The defendant is one of a family of gipsy horse-dealers, residing at Scarcliffe. Elizabeth Holmes, the mother of the defendant in the last case, was then charged with assaulting Joseph Heath, pinder, of Scarcliffe, by throwing a stone at him.
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you write these words below and they have helped me in my research, i put the few on at the bottom to link the familys up through storys of their life, along with the census reports from people like Sue, well mostley Sue, we all then start to truley understand the truth, i will put more on later about the Winters Elliotts Heapes Woodwards Holmes Allens Smiths Boylings Knights Wiltshires Wilshers Wilshaws and several ways of spellings and more names that are related or connected in any way that may help everyone who is connected and is trying to learn the truth of the past that inturn helps themselfs to understand what they do not know
Joseph Wilsher 1865 and Elizabeth Woodward 1863 Emmanuel Woodward 1842 and Mary Ann Allen 1845 Thomas Woodward 1820 and Mary Williams 1815. .
Is, Joseph Wilsher 1865 and Elizabeth Woodward 1863 Emmanuel Woodward 1842 and Mary Ann Allen 1845 Thomas Woodward 1820 and Mary Williams 1815... Derbyshire 1881,
This would be the Woodward I speak of, Mary Ann Allen and Emmanuel Woodward are Elizabeth parents and Thomas Woodward and Mary William are her grandparents.
There are also a number of bothers and sisters to Elizabeth.
The link I am researching and trying to prove at the moment is... Robert Winter 1828 married a Jane Wilshaw 1837, I believe Jane 1837 to be one of William Wilshaw 1811 child...
One of Jane/Robert Winter kids marries a Thomas Woodward, who I believe to be Elizabeth Woodward bother. I need to start purchasing certificates to prove or disprove the intermarrying tho.
The Allens and Winters are more Gipsy Familys that are stated as being related to the people we are talking about, below is a few records I will put more on later
Derby Daily Telegraph
Wednesday 13 July 1910
GIPSIES SENTENCED FOR ROBBERY WITH
VIOLENCE
Three Gipsies, Joseph Allen, Sarah Allen, and Barbara Winter were sentenced at the Chester Assizes on Tuesday for robbing with violence David Woodward another Hawker, of £42. It was stated that Woodward went to their encampment to buy a caravan, and that in a dispute he was knocked senseless, and that whilst the woman held his hands Joseph Allen went through his pockets. Joseph Allen was sentenced to nine months imprisonment, Sarah Allen to six and Winter four.
If you read several other reports regarding this event, and not just the date stated above, you may find out more information that may help you in your research
(Their ages are mentioned)
(Tranmere as a closer location plus more information regarding the location of the camp site)
(It is stated that David Woodward was accompanied with his wife and the fight was among five Gipsies not three)
(They had been to a Public House)
(Information about the content of the fight)
(Sara Was Josephs Wife)
THE SHEFFIELD DAILY TELEGRAPH
THURSDAY 25 NOVEMBER
1869
ASSAULTS.-Joseph Willsher and Thomas Willsher, Pot Hawkers, Attercliffe, were charged with assaulting David Allen, of Brampton Moore, near Chesterfield. Mr. Sugg appeared for the prosecution, and Mr. Chambers defended. On Tuesday afternoon prosecutor was in the horse fair when he was struck by the prisoner Joseph, and the brother kicked him whilst he was on the ground. He was cruelly ill-used, and was rendered unfit to follow his occupation. The bystanders sent for a Policeman, and the prisoners ran away, but were apprehended under a warrant.-The Magistrates were of the opinion that a savage assault had been committed, and the prisoners were ordered to be imprisoned in the House of Correction for two months each.
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Look at this story below, the Elliotts and Smiths are relations, so are the Nelsons from the censuses below, i have been looking at them for a few years collecting storeys, i followed them right up into Scotland, there i have wrote about them maybe being also known as Neilsons, for i have found storeys of them, now look at this story below, Alexander Neilson could be Alexander Nelson from one of the census reports below, i think everybody knows each other much more than anyone alive now knows, the Walter Bowring maybe could be a Nelson desended from Walter Nelson who married a Lotis Willshaw in the census below, i will put more on soon connecting Richard Elliott with the Wiltshires and more connecting storeys, this could turn out to be a great find, everyone still must of knew every family over decades, look how the Knights are there to, i left other familys out of the census reports below so as to just concentrate on the Nelsons, if you look at the previous post the full names are there, this below about Alexander Neilson could turn out to be a great find,
ps.... if Alexander Neilson is Alexander Nelson that meens he is Watter Nelsons Son, who is the Son-in-Law of William Willshaw abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier which confirms the Neilsons being Nelsons, then William is suposed to be the Son of Edward Wiltshire from the 1700s, but no one as a clue who he is, there is a bartie Jones Gipsy up in court from the 1840s for stealing a horse, he is chased by the police from Lincolnshire through to Yorkshire, i will write about him soon, the jones you are looking for who is Lidia Willshaw abt 1812 Codbrough, Nottinghamshire, maiden name, and you said she married William, well Bartie Jones whos wife is Ann is the only one i can find, the Jones that married William may just be local Lady, but i will right back about Bartie soon
Friday 01 June 1894
Mansfield Reporter
Nottinghamshire
GIPSIES CAMPING OutRichard Elliot, Walter Bowring, Henry Smith, and Alexander Neilson, gipsies, were summoned for obstructing the highway. lnspector Hopkinson stated that at 3 a.m. on the 29th ult. he found the defendants in Candwell-lane, Sutton-in-Ashfield, with three living vans, one sleeping van,a waggon, a light cart, and seven horses camping out. Complaints have been received from farmers living in that neighbourhood about the gipsies camping out and turning their horses loose.Defendants were each fined.
People not in houses*
1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier
Lidia Willshaw abt 1812 Codbrough, Nottinghamshire, Wife
Joseph Willshaw abt 1846 Darrington, Yorkshire Son
Lidia Willshaw abt 1848 Lincoln, Lincolnshire Daughter
Walter Nelson * abt 1829 Scotland Son-in-Law
Lotis Nelson abt 1829 Stowe, Lincolnshire, Daughter
Henry Nelson abt 1853 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
George Nelson abt 1854 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
Harriet Nelson abt 1856 Carlton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
Mary Nelson abt 1858 Pontefract, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
1861**Town: Pontefract (People sleeping in Tents)
County/Island: Yorkshire
William Willshaw 50 hd Tinner and Brazier
Lidia Willshaw 49 wife
Joseph Willshaw 15 son
Lidia Willshaw 13 dau
Walter Nelson 32 son in law born SCOTLAND **
Lotis Nelson 32 dau
Henry Nelson 8 g son
George Nelson 7 g son
Harriet Nelson 5 g/dau
Mary Nelson 3 g/dau
1871*Parish:Doncaster Ecclesiastical parish:St George *:Yorkshire
Gypsies *Camp in Cherry Lane*
Walter Nelson 45 Hawker(Gypsy)
Lettuce Nelson 43
Henry Nelson 17
Harriet Nelson 13
George Nelson 12
Jemima Nelson 10
David Nelson 8
Alexander Nelson 6
Betsey Nelson 2
-----------------------------------------------
1881*Mexborough, Yorkshire
Walter Nelson abt 1826 Durham, Head besom maker
Clar Nelson abt 1828 Thurnsby, Yorkshire, Wife ?why Clar?
Alice Nelson abt 1865 Doncaster, Yorkshire,
Betsy Nelson abt 1870 Eastwood, Yorkshire,
Thomas Nelson abt 1873 Eastwood, Yorkshire, Son
William Nelson abt 1874 Mexbro, Yorkshire, Son
~~~~~~~~-------
1881*Parish: Thorne County/Island: Yorkshire
Alexander Nelson 67 Tin Plate worker born Kilroy, Scotland
~~~~~~~~-----------
1891*Civil Parish: Mexborough
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Yorkshire
Walter Nelson 66 hd b Carington Lam, Durham, besom maker
Lettie 64 wife
Thomas 17b
Wm Nelson 15 coll lab
-----------------------------------------------------------------
George Nelson 29 b Royston, Yorkshire colliery labourer(caravan in Field)
lavina 27
Thomas 10
Lilly 11
Grtrude Nelson 5
Harriett Nelson 3
1901*Mexborough St John the Baptist *Yorkshire
George Nelson 45 colliery labourer
Thomas Nelson 17
Gertrude Nelson 15
Harriett Nelson 12
Ephraim Nelson 8
Oscar Nelson 4
George Nelson 1 month
Walter Nelson 80 father bon scotland No occupation
1861*Town:Wath upon Dearne:Yorkshire
James Knight 44 b Chesterfield, Derbyshire Earthenware Dealer
Emma Knight 36 b Portsea Hampshire
Harriet Knight 14
Maria Knight 12 dau b Sheffield
Henry Knight 10
Tom Knight 7
Bill Knight 2
--------------------------
-
Buried
Joseph Wilsher 1865-1938
Elizabeth Wilsher nee Woodward 1863 abt-1953
Henry Wilsher 1885-1940
Mary Owen nee Wilsher 1894-1940
Authority :Nottingham City Council
Cemetery : Southern Cemetery (Wilford Hill), Nottingham
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I suppose your have read all my posts of the past, this below is from January 2016, i also remember long ago when i was small, Letty had been ill for a while, my Mother would tell us to be quiet when we played out, then one day Letty Died she was cremated and her ashers were spread on the the grave of Rebeccas in the form of a cross, i saw this with my own eyes, someone wrote to me and said William is burried with Rebecca, which William maybe them both i do no know, maybe more i have never tryed to find out, all you have to do is either log on the Wilford Cemetry web site or just go down there and talk to people and pay a small fee for them to tell you everything, they will evan walk you over to the hidden graves, Letty had a daughter also named Rebecca, she never would smile at us, my Mother was also Rebecca, Lettys Rebecca had dark brown hair like my Mother, and she was older than our lot, you would think her face would crack from being so tight in the way there was no emotion, i was small just running around with my brothers wild like and offen she would pass by and i would shout out helo, sure if i dint of done it she would have walked straight by, she would just remark, helo, and carry on walking like we was never there, Aurnty Letty was alright though, She would watch us play on the old graveyard opposite her house, my Mother would always call in to talk with her, She had one of thoes little Gipsy caravans made of clay or wood as an ornament, my Mother had one to, we lived a few doors away, its very close to Gedling Street and also where Luckknow Street was, the place that you talk of, well they are just a few hundred yards away, over many decades many people lived within a very close circle, the more i have found out the more amazing the story goes, sometimes i walk down the old streets and think how i walk the very same route as was walked by all the people that have been mentioned, where did you get the photo from, who of, i want you to tell me.
Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
« Reply #185 on: Saturday 02 January 16 08:37 GMT (UK) »
I would often go with my Mother to pay respects to People at Wilford Hill, there are lots there names like William, Joseph, Percy, Henry, Edward, James, Frederick, Maria ,Rebecca, Letty, and more those sorts of names, lots we new of, lots as come as a surprise to me, I'm as sure as sure can be thoe that there all related, and more to, same as those other cemetery's, they were just ordinary people living there own life in there own time, there were no fancy kings or great names known by others, no fancy big gravstones, not nothing at all much just People gone now to this life, but I will speak more of them and what i know another time, oral history, there on the right side as you go in the main entrance, up that little winding path, i know this is true, for i was there, i hope this is of help one day, some of there relatives will look, and they will find there way through my words, all those times long ago I would jump and skip along that path, seems so long ago now, my Mother had great love for the Dead, happy days, most were born mid to late 1800s, i think there are more over at the northern bulwell cemetery, but I was never there, i have seen their names on records, i would say some could be right, pluss on some records its not just the last name that can be spelled differently, where people have marriage records giving a Fathers name say George,
and yet they can not connect a George to an older Family that stands out as true, this is be course on records I have seen William be known as George William, then just William, so if you come across say a George don't be thinking that was the only name he went by, you have to take no notice of what you think is the right way of researching, you are dealing with people far different from anyways you thought was possible
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This is Rebecca Wilsher's grave with bother William Wilsher, mother Maria Wilsher nee Hartley and Rebecca's kid I believe.
This grave is just across from my second great grand father's grave.
I have many burial registers I have paid for and photos of graves people have shared.
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Thank you for the information about David, where it says he is burried in the grave with Rebecca, this is one of thoes big finds that starts the key turning in that creaky rusty old lock in the guardian door of time, if you reread the story above about me going to Wilford Hill as a young boy with my Mother you will liston to me saying how you turn right at the main entrance then go along that little path to the graves, the path is a bit more done up now but look on the picture you sent of the burriel ground and at the car park is the main entrance, if you read my post about Wilford the words i write match the picture you sent, the sad thing for me to think is a Cousin started writing to me several years ago, long before i came on rootschat, well i told my Cousin all about a story of a young boy who died long ago named David, my Cousin said that they did not know of him, i told my Cousin i remember my Mother telling me of a young fellow who died, long long ago, i thought about this so much trying to remember details well it made all sorts of answers come into my head, so in the end i was not sure what was told me only the name of David and that he died, my Cousin told me they had found Rebeccas grave at Wilford by paying a small fee to the Council orthority of Wilford Hill Cemetry, i told my Cousin about me going there many times over the yeares for my Mother never got over the death of her Mother and would worship the ground she walked on and now she would go to vissit her at Wilford Hill and take me with her to, she must have been going long before i was born, i remember there being a white stone grave to like the one of Joseph but i could be getting confused, the sad thing is my Cousin never mentioned about who was in the grave with Rebecca, i hope that my Cousin did not know at the time and just told me Rebecca was there for that was all the information they had at the time, i asked who was in the grave with rebecca, i know there was a William, for William was the name on a little stone monument at the grave, i did not know which William, and i never new that Mariha was there, my Cousin said they only got one name on the paper they give you, and that you have to pay more for more names, is that true, i told my Cousin storys all about David and Mariha, why did they not tell me about David and Mariha being in the grave, i never said anything wrong, it was my Cousins who wrote to me for answers, now you have said you write also to my Cousins yet they told you who was in the grave, and you have now told me, i can only thank you for that, i do hope people were not just being bad to me, maybe they never new then what they know now.
David is a massive clue to who Mariha his, Rebecca named her own daughter after herself, thats my Mother, one of her brothers was named after my Mothers Grandad William Wilsher, yes my uncle was known as uncle Billy, so Rebecca named my Mother and her Son after her own Mother and Father, i was brought up to know the story of a David but not rearly knowing the truth, now you say David is in the grave with them all, and the Wilshers all using the name David as an alias yeares back as in David Hartley the name of Mariha before she married William, Rebecca must of named David after a David Hartley of the past, i wonder if Rebeccas Grandad was David Hartley, look at the storys on my next post that i wrote about a few yeares ago, many many times we would go to Wilford, it was me who new where the graves were, many many old storys, lots was past down to me, i am the only living person who knows of the Wiltshires Wilshaws Wilshers Wilshires and a bag full of other ways of spelling that name, the only person alive in the worled who knows real true storys is me, i would talk to old people when i was young who new all the old Wilshers, my own Mother also would pass down everything just to me of what She herself was told, read the storys on the next page
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Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
« Reply #202 on: Sunday 27 March 16 17:29 BST (UK) »
Quote
Oral history as past down was Williams Wife came from Scotland, in records She is said to be registered in Yorkshire, my Mother when young would plait Her hair and She would tell of the old history, my Mother telled me of these times, She said She was born round a place named Musselburgh in the mid to late 1800s, on a record that was shown to me it says Her Fathers name was Hartley, who Her Mother was I don't know, also the first name She was known by was not the one used on any record I have seen of Her, i think the two Williams below are Her Husband and Son, who Walter is i don't know but Her Husband sure as lots of names so it could be Him, young William thoe is only about 14 not 20, and the name he gives as David could be a clue, my Mother telled of a young boy who died, I always thought She meant Her Mothers Son, but now it could mean Young William had a Brother, or his Grandad was named David Hartley and a Child that died was named after Him, who knows it could or could not be a clue, these are rip roaring Gipsy People of their own day, so the Hartleys of Scotland could be related to these great People, who the Hartleys are I do not know, I did ask Vince once, he asked His Wife who I think is a Boswell and knows things for Shes in with the Church, She said they were Gipsy People, who ever they are thoe it seems like they could be Related
Nottinghamshire 1907
ALLEGED FALSE PRETENCES AT NEWARK.
Hartley, alias Walter Wiltshire, no fixed abode, was charged Newark Police-court this morning, before the Mayor (Councillor H. E. Braneton),. with obtaining a guinea with false pretences, from Edmund Crow, saddler, Mill-gate, Newark. Prosecutor said that on Thursday morning prisoner came into his shop and said he was from Catesby and Co. with cork lino. They had been fitting up the Clinton Arms, he said, and had nine or ten yards left over from the job. and they were authorised to sell it regardless of cost in order to save carriage back to the factory. He showed one of Catesbys cards, which wes printed: We authorise our workmen to sell all remnants re-gardless of cost to save carriage back to our warehouse. This Satisfied witness that it was Cateebys, and he gave prisoner one guinea for the stuff. Subsequently made inquiries at the Clinton Arms, and in consequence gave information to the police. On this evidence the Chief Constable asked for a remand until Monday. Bail was asked for and granted in two sureties of £25 each, and prisoner Himself in £5O.
Nottingham 1910
NOTTINGHAM MAN CHARGED WITH AN OFFENCE COMMITTED IN 1903.
A case illustrative the long arm of the law came before Messrs. T. Shipstone and J. E. Pendleton at the Nottingham Summons Court to-dav, when William Wiltshire, alias Hartley, of 1, Kelk's-yard, Count-street, Nottingham, was summoned for using obscene language September 7th, 1903, and for assaulting Police-Constable Manners May 26th. The evidence showed that seven years ago the defendant did not appear and answer a summons, and a warrant had been taken out against him. Last Thursday he assaulted Police-Constable Manners, and this afforded the opportunity of a charge being preferred against him. The Bench overlooked the first offence, and sentenced him 21 days' imprisonment for assaulting the constable.
Derbyshire 1914
USELESS VARNISH.
William Wilsher (20), hawker, giving his address as 26, Bridgehouses, Sheffield, was charged at Chesterfield, to-day, with committing what the -Mayor (Alderman E. Shentall) said was a very mean trick. Two charges of obtaining money by false pretences were preferred against the youth, who is the son of Sheffield hawkers. on Friday', the 13th inst., prisoner called at her house and asked if she wanted to buy some varnish, saying he was a varnisher, that he had been doing work at Mr. Logging house at Brampton, and that the varnish he had over his master was allowing him to sell. She told him she did not want any varnish, but he produced a bottle and a piece of cloth and applied some varnish out of the bottle to an old chair. The stuff seemed all right and he offered to sell the bottleful for 2s. She ultimately bought it for 9d. Her son was about to try the varnish, but none would come out of the bottle, an examination showed a second cork lower down the neck of the bottle. This cork was pushed in and the liquid that came out was nothing but coloured water. Witness afterwards identified the prisoner at the police station. Mr. Frank Stokes, paint and varnish manufacturer. said the mixture in the two bottles produced was 25 per cent water, with a small quantity of linseed oil and Bismarck brown. As a varnish the stuff was absolutely useless and was not worth a penny.
Prisoner pleaded guilty on both charges, The Bench decided to convict, and the Chiefconstable announced a conviction at Sheffield against the prisoner, who gave the name of " David Hartley" Mrs. Wilsher hereupon burst into tears and she besought the Bench not to let her darling go down. The uproar she created led to her being ejected from the Court. "We consider it a very mean trick to defraud a blind woman, observed the Mayor to young Wilsher, and you will be fined £2. including costs, on each charge, or one months imprisonment for each offence.
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why did they not tell me about David and Mariha being in the grave, i never said anything wrong, it was my Cousins who wrote to me for answers, now you have said you write also to my Cousins yet they told you who was in the grave, and you have now told me, i can only thank you for that, i do hope people were not just being bad to me, maybe they never new then what they know now.
No one told me about who was in the grave, I purchased all the burial register's to find out, I have spent a great deal of money on dna , certificates and registers in the last year... I was told it was believed William Wilsher the father was in the grave but with the details of the death date I found, it shows its the bother to Rebecca...
I have been lucky in my research to meet distance cousins who have willing aided and talked to me about the larger Romani family of old. I feel a need to preserve the history of my ancestor kin, now I have finally connected with them.
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It sounds like my Cousins never new the truth either if they told you old William was maybe in the grave, and it turns out young William was there, did you see the photo of young William with his Sister from the early 1900s, my Cousins have a copy, did they show you it, young William and Rebecca are very hansome indeed, i found a web site called My Heritage that as people on doing family trees, someone as lots of information about the Wilshire, Jones Winter connection from the early times of the 1800s, i just look at thousands of pagers of information that come on internet, i dont know what i am doing, things just pop up and sometimes they have info in them most times its alright to for you get to learn about history, i do not truthfully think theres a person in the country who can match the knowledge i have of most Gipsy familys of Britain, i have read all about them, thousands of articles, i know so much about Gipsy familys from hundreds of yeares, the older writers and evan some or most people today have it all wrong, you just would not believe the things i know, i was raised knowing about things as normal, everything of the past to me was normal, it carried on to, just the same way, into this time in my life, but i am a quiet sort of a person myself, this below is a little of the information on that site, it says if you join up you can get a free months trial to see if you like it, so you will not evan have to spend no more money, it sounds like youve broke yourself, i will have to start a collection for you, i,ll start it of with a pound, you may already have been on the web site and talked to people but just incase you have not this is a little of the information they have on one page that you do not have to signe up to
Jane Winter (born wilshire), born 1830
Jane Winter (born wilshire) was born in 1830, to William wilshire and Lydia wilshire (born Jones).
William was born on July 19 1805, in Long bennington Lincolnshire.
Lydia was born in 1812, in codbrough.
Jane married Robert Winter.
Robert was born in 1828, in newmarket lincolnshire.
They had 10 children: Walter Winter, John Winter and 8 other children.
Jane lived in 1881, at address.
She lived in 1901, at address.
She lived on month day 1911, at address.
Documents of Jane Winter (born wilshire)
Jane Winter in 1861 England & Wales Census
Jane Winter was born circa 1835, at birth place.
Jane married Robert Winter.
Jane lived in 1861, at address.
Jane Winter in 1881 England & Wales Census
Jane Winter was born circa 1837, at birth place.
Jane married Robt Winter.
They had 9 children: Alexander Winter, John Winter and 7 other children.
Jane lived in 1881, at address.
Jane Winter in 1891 England & Wales Census
Jane Winter was born circa 1835, at birth place.
Jane married Robert Winter.
Jane lived in 1891, at address.
Jane Winter in 1851 England & Wales Census
Jane Winter was born circa 1830, at birth place.
Jane married Robert Winter.
They had one child: Thoophilus Winter.
Jane lived in 1851, at address.
ps... do you see how there is another Alexander and a Walter, i do not know what is on the site but i know from reading the free page that they let you read that there are people on there who know more, i do not go on any web sites only this one, i only ever log on here, i could join up and pay for everything but it would send me mad, i just love what i am doing here, thats why i dont go on ancetry web sites for i would have to stop doing this type of research
I have been looking at records of the Jones from up this way, not much about, i will put everything on for you another time, when i was doing my researchers from the South about familys like the Beeneys i came across records of the Southern Jones, i found one saying how this Jones man was speaking the real old Romany Lanuage, they sound like the old time Gipsys to me, the Jones up this way who married one of the older Williams may just be a town Girl, you may never find out, but i will put a few names and locations on for you to bear in mind
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I have a fair size tree of the Winter/Wilsher blood line mapped out on ancestry, I have purchased a small number of certificates for them atm... I plan on purchasing a lot more.
My dads/uncles DNA together matches 2 people from the Robert Winter/Janes Winter nee Wilshaw blood line, 3 people from the John Holmes/ Rebecca Holmes nee Wilsher line and 3 people from the Joseph Wilsher and Elizbeth Wilsher nee Woodward line.
Interestingly a person we matched on dna from the Robert Winter/Wilsher line... Jane Winter nee Wilsher ended up living with his direct family in her later age. I seen a image of his grand mother, and she does look like a relation... Their family ended up in OZ.
County/Island-Lancashire
Country-England
Street Address-29 Beaconsfield Rd
Name:John Winter-Age-46
Name:Jane Winter nee Wilshaw-Age-75
Name:Mary A Winter-Age-41
Name:Mary Winter-Age-18 (Grand Mother to DNA match)
Name:Betsy Winter-Age-16
Name:Thomas Winter-Age-13
Name:Willie Winter-Age-7
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You have to be carefull with the d.n.a, i think everyone would have to have it done to get a true result, lots of things go on in familys over the yeares, lots of half this and that, a bit of that and a lot of this, i think in a family there is room for everyone, i will write back with the information i found on the Jones that i talked about on my last post, you never know something may connect to future finds, remember save everything, i must have millions of notes, why did you not look at the connection with the Smiths that Joseph was said to be related to, Joseph address was said to be Gedling street, i spoke with the old Smiths yeares ago, they are dead now, they said they are related to the Wiltshires, they told me i was their Cousin, i never new what they was on about, they could speak good old Gipsy words to, i will write back another time on another day
A DERBY DISTURBANCE. NOTTM.
HAWKER HIS WEALTHY SONS-IN-LAW.
Nottingham 1919
A melee in the Derby Cattle Market on Friday, in which prisoner was rescued from custody and a constable had to make use of his staff, had a sequel at the police-court to-day. Joseph Wiltshire, hawker, 6, Gedling-street, Nottingham, was fined 10s. assaulting Pc. Bristow, and for assaulting Special Constable H. A. Wallace (market superintendent), whom he struck several times on the face and body; while Alfred Smith, dealer, living in a van at Cotton-lane, was fined 7s. 6d. for fighting. Bristow apprehended Smith and his antagonist, whereupon Wiltshire (the father-in-law of the men) and others intervened and succeeded in getting one of the prisoners away. Wiltshire then ran off, but was stopped by Mr. Wallace who told the Bench that Wiltshire made a mad struggle for freedom. Wiltshire, against whom there were eight previous convictions. including one for police assault, stated that his sons-in-law had a lot of money in their possession and was afraid they would be robbed.
ps... i did find a record of the Gipsys of Cotton lane the Smiths, then i went and lost it, try as i can i have not re found it yet but i will, when you find these types of records they sometimes have more names on like a Cousin, this then allows you to search for the knew name, then you find great connections, i have some great records, wait till i show you the record about Joseph and the pheasant, wow, thats a good one
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You have to be carefull with the d.n.a, i think everyone would have to have it done to get a true result, lots of things go on in familys over the yeares, lots of half this and that, a bit of that and a lot of this, i think in a family there is room for everyone, i will write back with the information i found on the Jones that i talked about on my last post, you never know something may connect to future finds, remember save everything, i must have millions of notes, why did you not look at the connection with the Smiths that Joseph was said to be related to, Joseph address was said to be Gedling street
The Smith families are on the list to research, there are many marriages with Wilsher/Smith in the greater tree though... I am researching and building about 7 trees of families that connect directly to the Wilsher's... Its just getting the time to do it all.
I use Dna as mostly just a marker to aid in growing the overall trees, It has proven my correct place in the tree... So I am at least greatful for that.
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I found these few storys, remember all their names, none of these storys may have nothing todo with the Jones you are looking for, but you never know in the future things just pop up and its then that collecting vast amounts of knowledge helps out, plus you get to be very connected to the goings of and doings of all types of people, you get a feel for the history and times, this to is of great help, you find key words that you know may lead you forwards, in these storys there is much more information contained within them, these are just mostley extracts, i know some may be way of the mark or evan transcribed in a way not quite right, i put these on to ,to show you how a person can go wrong.
There are many Jones from the South, they are connected to lots of other Gipsys, i have lots of storys about them, one day hopefuly i am going back to another page on here i have been writing on and i will write massive amounts up of the great Gipsy People of the South, so the Jones you are looking for like i say may be just locals, who knows, but good luck in your research
Saturday 20 August 1803
Northampton Mercury
Northamptonshire
about five feet eight Inches high, black Hair, and is a Gipsy, and lately resided about Luton, in Bedfordshire. Any Person' or Persons apprehending the said William Row and Joseph Jones, alias Smith, and delivering them to us, the Constables of Wing
Friday 13 July 1804
Stamford Mercury
Lincolnshire
Abraham Moses, aged 29, and Catherine Jones, aged 25, for uttering base coin at Till-bridge
Friday 20 July 1804
Stamford Mercury
Lincolnshire
The indictment against Abraham Moses, charged with uttering base coin, was thrown out by the Grand Jury and Catherine Jones, trial for a like offence, was acquitted
Friday 29 September 1848
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
MAGISTRATES' MEETINGS
Barton.At the justice-room, before the Rev. Charles Barton. Bartie Jones and Annie, his wife, gipsies, were charged with stealing a mare, at Saxelby, on the morning of the 5th instant, the property of William Ostick ...
Friday 02 March 1849
Stamford Mercury
Lincolnshire
Feb. 24, before T. A. Cooke, Esq the Rev. W. Strong, Lieut -Col. Hardy, and Thos. Atkinson, Esq Three gipsies named Moses Jones, Jos. Hyde, and Elix Eldred, were convicted of encamping in Frog flail lane on the 24th. They paid the cost. 7s
Friday 16 March 1849
Hull Advertiser and Exchange Gazette
Yorkshire
Saturday 17 March 1849
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
Lincolnshire Assizes
Mare-stealing at Saxilby. Barthy Jones, aged 20, was charged with having stolen a mare, in September, at Saxilby, the property William Ostick.
Friday 28 November 1851
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
faul Stealing. On Saturday last, before the Rev. H. Holdsworth, a man named John Jones, was examined on a charge of having, in the night of Friday the 14th instant, stolen out of a close of land in Gosberton
Friday 11 June 1852
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
The Stocks. On Saturday morning last, James Jones, of Westhorpe, Southwell, tinman, was placed in the parish stocks, on the Kirklington road, for six hours, for nonpayment of the penalty
Friday 10 September 1852
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
John Jones, vagrant, was charged with begging at Middlegate the previous day. Committed to Southwell house of correction for fourteen days
Friday 03 August 1855
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
Mary Ann Jones, alias Green, was charged with receiving, knowing it to have been stolen, a lady's night dress, and two yards of black silk
Thursday 22 January 1857
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
POLICE OFFICE. NOTTINGHAM
Wednesday. Dog Fighting at Two o'clock n the Morning. John Jones, 25, tinman and brazier, was charged with having created a breach of the peace in Union Street, about half-past two this morning. Jones, with several others, was setting dogs on to fight
Friday 03 June 1859
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
In St. Peter's-at-Gowts, Lincoln, on Friday last, Sarah daughter of John Jones, tinman, aged 9 months.
Saturday 13 June 1868
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
At Heckington, on the 2nd inst., Jesse Burgen to Sarah on the lst inst., Samuel Tearing to MaryAnn Wisher and the same day, William Jones to Ann
saturday 02 February 1884
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
AN Apprentice Wanted, Tinman and Brazier, Apply to James Jones, 46, Glasshouse-street, Nottingham.
Saturday 03 September 1892
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Coroner Footitt, at the Reindeer Inn, relative to the death of Mr. James Jones, aged 59, tinman and brazier, of 88, Northgate, who died very suddenly on the previous night. Mrs.' Mary Ann Jones said the deceased, her husband, was 59 years old,
Tuesday 10 August 1948
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Warrant Issued A week ago, Cornelius Jones. 32, a gipsy, of the Caravan Site, Beechdale-road, Nottingham, appeared before a special court at Long Eaton charged with assaulting two police officers. He was remanded on bail in a sum of £lO. .
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I have been reading over your posts to try and work out who are the people in what you have found, you mention familys like Lewis, Paddock, and Owen, I have lived this way all my life and do not know no one whos family name is of the ones you have found, so I looked at the records and sure anough they are over this way from the older times, the Paddocks sound like they have something in them, the Lewises barrow boys and the Owens to much the same, I put Fred Ballington on becoures you mentioned his name, what I think is, well names are known in a certain time, things happen at certain times, then in later times names die out as familys quieten down or move out of the area, I have been looking at other names from around the area we talk of and they are still around in my time, they have no connection to what we speak of, all I mean is sometimes names and familys live on for generations, other times names are big in a certain time but then die out, the barrow boy hawkers are wide boys, they would be tough to, plenty of money all the time, nothing to spend it on thoe, just have a good drink, their day round this way is much done, Sneinton is finished now, maybe the last 15 yeares as seen the most change, nearly all the pubs have shut down, turned into mosques and shops, all the old familys have mostley gone, I dont rearly know how it all happened, or why, the storys from the times we talk of would be the way people were for hundreds of yeares, right up till my time, first it got more bad about the ninetys when the drugs it the City, it got much more brutal then, you had the imigrants from the sixtys, from the West Indies and India and such, this was alright and everybody was good with it, now though its all gone crackers, the young people will be alright when the older ones are dead, for the younger ones only know how things are now, they will never know how everyone used to know everyone, I dont evan know where did everyone go, in the City now theres millions of people from millions of places, I used to like it how it used to be, but others now think this is the way forwards, I just whatch the worled go by and let things be, I have put some records on for you, I will find the Woodwards next, there are lots from the times you write of around this way, but I dont know if they connect in any way to the names you write about, I will finish with a few names of others you write of then I will show you and tell of the Wilshers, its strange how you say all these family names like Lewis, Paddock, and Owen, well there are only a couple of cross over storys, the records I found though have lots of information in them that I have not wrote down, these on the next pagers are just extracts, if any sound right to you, well you may find much more information in the fuller records, you are right to look for all the history, its the right way to learn the truth of everything, I know you have your reasons for writing, thats fine by me, remember I told you a few times to just say your peace, do you see how you see that theres no chains on me, you may say anything you wish to say, it is of no matter, thank you for writing about the boy David, i will write about the Wilshers soon, it will take some time, there all over the place, i think maybe only a few settled around here around the 1900s, the old Joe who you talk about, and a few relatives, wait untill you read all the information i have, there are not many only a couple of connecting storys with the names you mentioned, but i think it is best to understand the full picture, i will show you the real truth soon
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So this is the information you put on, you said three Wilsher Girls married with these boys from this way, these are there last names below and storys of them, there is a couple of cross over storys but not much, i just wanted to help you to learn as i have learned from you, you are right, you are so right to seek out the full truth
Lewis
Paddock
Owen
Marriage-25 May 1915-Nottingham
Ernest Owen a carter son to Thomas Owen marriage to Mary Wilsher a hawker child of Joseph Wilsher a hawker.
Ernest Owen and Mary Wilsher Address 6 Gedling st.
Witness Mary's sister Sarah Wilsher.
Joseph Wilsher of 6 Gedling Street Nottingham
So I have writ about a Joseph Wilsher of a 6 Gedling Street Nottingham in past posts...
I have long believed he was related to the rest of the Wilsher family. I purchased the marriage certificate of my 3rd great aunt and boom, her address is given as a 6 Gedling street... This added with her sister Harriet Paddock nee Wilsher also showing up in a news report with a person from the same address... I am starting to think this Joseph is in fact their dad, Husband to Elizabeth Wilsher nee Woodward.
Harriet Paddock- I believe Harriet Paddock to be Harriet Wilsher, sister of Sarah Wilsher 1900, also daughter of Joseph Wilsher 1865, and Elizabeth Woodward 1863.
Harriet Wilsher born 1897, married Oliver Paddock in 1914, remarried Fred Ballington in 1949.
Father Joseph Wilsher 1865 and Mother Elizabeth Woodward 1863.
Nottingham Evening Post - Thursday 09 August 1923
"DESERVED WHAT SHE GOT."
MAGISTRATE'S REMARK ASSAULT CASE.
At the Guildhall to-day, Mary Ann Brierley, charged Harriet Paddock, 25, housewife, 36, Pipestreet, and Joseph, alias Jim, Wiltshire, 50. described by the police as a poacher, of 6, Gedlingstreet., with assault. Mr. A. F. (defending)
"Sarah Wilsher 1900 atb was the child of Joseph Wilsher 1865 and Elizabeth Woodward 1866 atb, both Elizabeth and Joseph were travellers settling in Nottingham.
Sarah Wilsher 1900 atb married John T Lewis 1899 in Nottingham 1917, Sarah and John both worked Sneinton market... Sarah Wilsher's Family sold carpets and John Lewis's Family Sold Fruit."
1939 - Nottingham launched its slum Clearance scheme and, as part of that, five streets in the market area: Finch street, Sheridan street, Brougham street, Lucknow street and Pipe street were demolished. This gave the Sneinton market an additional 2 3/4 acres- more than twice the previous area.
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These are just extracts, there is more information in the full accounts at the Newspaper Archive web site
Friday 04 August 1871
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
Disouderly Conduct Jno Lewis, hawker. Mount-street, was charged with disorderly conduct, and al'so with having assaulted the police
Friday 07 March 1879
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Thomas Lewis, hawker, of Nottingham, said he attended the sale in question, and bought two wooden ploughs, which afterwards he sold to the prisoner
Tuesday 31 August 1880
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
The Stone Throwing Nuisance.A lad, named John Owen, was charged with throwing stones at the windows of Mr. Elliott's factory on the London-road, yesterday afternoon.
Wednesday 28 December 1881
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Towers was charged with being drunk whilst in charge a horse and cart in Main-street, Bulwell, on Monday. He was fined 20s. Samuel Owen was charged with a similar offence and with furious driving on London-road on the previous day
Friday 28 July 1882
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Assault. John Paddock was charged with having assaulted Jesse Pownder striking him with a whip in Wainwright-street
Tuesday 03 July 1883
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Samuel Owen was charged with being drunk while in charge of a horse and cart in Wheeler-gate the previous after- noon. Fined 20s
Friday 10 August 1883
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
WEDNESDAY. (Before Messrs. H. Snerbrooke, A. Heymann, and G. Fellows.) Samuel Owen was charged by Sergeant Hall with having been drunk while in charge of a horse and dray at Ruddingten, on the 28th
Tuesday 22 July 1884
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Samuel Owen was charged with having been drunk while in charge of a horse and cart in Arkwright-street, and was fined 20s.
Thursday 04 September 1884
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
SUMMONS COURT. (Before Messrs. Dobson and Brown.) FALSE Weight.Thomas Owen, coal dealer, of Millstone-lane, was summoned by Mr. Radford, Inspector of Weights and Measures, and Clerk the Marset, for selling
Tuesday 29 November 1887
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
POLICE. THIS DAY.(Before Mr. J. W. Newbold (the Mayor), Sir J. Smith, and Mr. W. Hobson.) An Unlicensed Pedlar.Jane Lewis, hawker, of no fixed residence, was charged with pedling without a licence, and also with begging. There were two previous convictions
Tuesday 21 February 1888
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Pitch and Toss.- Samuel Owen, plus several others boys were charged with playing pitch and toss in Calcutta-street
Tuesday 12 March 1889
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
John Moss Owen (50), dealer, was indicted for stealing a wooden box, containing various articles of clothing. &c., also a parcel containing a brown
Tuesday 10 January 1893
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
THE ALLEGED MURDER IN NOTTINGHAM
ALLEGED MURDER NOTTINGHAM. PROCEEDINGS. THIS DAY DAY
At Nottingham this afternoon, Samuel Owen, 24, of 33. York street, hawker, was in custody charged on remand with the Murder of Alice West, in Charlotte street, Nottingham. december 27th
Wednesday 24 January 1894
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
serious Offence.Ernest Owen, of 22, Manorstreet, and Ernest Handford, of 13, Windmill-lane, two boys, were summoned for wilfully breaking four lamps
Wednesday 13 June 1894
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
THIS DAY'S DISTRICT POLICE
Frederick Ballington, a collier, of Arnold, for unlawfully assaulting Mabel Kate Kirk, aged 13, at Mapperley, on the 11th inst.. was committed ...
Tuesday 13 August 1895
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Orchard Bobbery.Frank 14, of 13, Manorstreet, and Ernest Owen, 16, of 8, Beaumont-street, were charged with stealing pears from an orchard in Trent-lane, Sneinton
Saturday 02 November 1895
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Thomas Owen, hawker, of Nottingham, was also summoned for being asleep whilst in charge of a horse and cart at West Bridgford
Thursday 05 December 1895
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Sleepy Driver. Thomas Owen, coal dealer, of Nottingham, was charged, with being the driver of a certain carriage Cotgrave on 13th, without having proper control of his horses
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Wednesday 27 May 1903
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
CRUELLY BEATING A PONY
Wm. Oldham, hawker. 7, St. Michael-street. wm summoned for cruelly beating and ill-treating a pony, and Samuel Owen, hawker. Milk-street, was summoned for abetting the cruelty, on the 10th inst. Owen pleaded guilty
Thursday 26 July 1906
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
John Lewis, hawker, was sent to prison for seven days at the Nottingham Guildhall yesterday for being drunk and disorderly and also assaulting the police. Evidence to the offence way given by Police-Constable Steele
Friday 26 October 1906
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
Selling Hares Withont a licence.Arthur Woodward and Samuel Owen were charged with offering for sale certain game, to wittness, without having a licence, Ilkeston, October 19th
Tuesday 16 April 1907
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
SNEINTON MARKET INCIDENT.
LOITERERS INVITATION TO THE CONSTABLE.
Come in and see, was the invitation given by Ishmael Owen, hawker, of 12, Old-street, Sneinton, to P.c. Fisher, who found him beneath the canvas over one of the stalls in the Market
Friday 31 May 1907
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
THEFTS IN NOTTINGHAM
John Paddock, hawker, of 6, Whitehalls-place, Goose-gate, induced her to part with a sovereign. Paddock did not return with the money
Saturday 01 June 1907
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
LOCAL POLICE COURTS
a hawker named John Paddock, was sent prison for one month
Tuesday 17 September 1907
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
HAWKER SENT TO GAOL
A hawker who was charged at the Nottingham Guildhall yesterday. His name was John Paddock, of 6, Whitehall-place, Goose-gate
Tuesday 18 August 1908
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
HORSE-STEALING charge.
NOTTINGHAM MAN WANTED AT MANSFIELD.
Jack Paddock. man living at 19. Crank-court, Milk-street, Nottingham, was at the Nottingham magistrates to-day handed over to the Mansfield police, on serious charges
Wednesday 26 August 1908
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
HORSE STEALING CHARGE AT MANSFIELD.
NOTTM. MEN SENT FOR TRIAL.
A horse stealing case was investigated at the Mansafield Police-Conrt to-day. John Paddock, hawker. Milk-Street, Nottingham
Friday 31 December 1909
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
BOTTLES AS MISSILES
The prisoners were three brothers, all hawkers, extenuation their offences. Ishmael Owen was sentenced to two months' imprisonment for the wilful damage, one month for assaulting Gooch, and one month for the assault on Evans. Frank Owens was similarly sentenced, and Albert Owen was fined 20s. 14 days
Monday 26 July 1909
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
AFTER A HORSE DEAL. NOTTINGHAM IMPUDENT THEFT.
John Paddock, a hawker, of 40, Brougham-street, was brought up at the Nottingham Guildhall today on a Charge of stealing money belonging to James Thorpe, general dealer, Clarence Street Sneinton
Thursday 23 June 1910
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
FOUR CHARGES
said the magistrates had decided to deal with the cases together, and Paddock would have to go to prison for three months. Paddock: Thank you sir, you're a gentleman. As he went below Paddock bade a cheerful good day to all his friends in court.
Thursday 15 September 1910
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
CRIPPEN'S DEFENCE
When formally charged, however, the man replied, I know nothing about it. His name is John Paddock, jun., 28. 40, Brougham-street. He was charged at the Guildhall this morning and remanded for a week
Wednesday 10 April 1912
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
Hawker fined for Cruel Treatmeat to an old pony, John Paddock (32). a hawker, of 40, Broughamstreet was charged at the Guildhall
Thursday 08 August 1912
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
PRISON FOR NOTTINGHAM HAWKER For stealing A tin of herrings value 4d. the property of Mr. A. B. Gibson, of Cross-street, John Lewis, 28, hawker, of Sidney-street, was at the Nottingham Guildhall
Friday 13 September 1912
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
ALLEGED THEFT OF A PONY. Charged with stealing a pony valued £6, the property of John Woodward, of 24, Rushworthterrace. Union-road, on the 25th April, a hawker named John Paddock, of no fixed residence, was remanded for eight days at the Guildhall this morning
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I will just put this one on to show you that the Wilshers, well just one of the many familys of them were on the move alover the place from around these times i am showing you, old Joe must of just settled down before everyone else, but i have found older records to, being him married with the Knights or his Dad married with the Knights and them maybe staying around Arnold and this ways yeares back, well maybe thats how the Wilshers first came to Nottingham, and the hub is Sneinton
Friday 04 April 1913
Mansfield Reporter
Nottinghamshire
EASTER MONDAY SCENES AT THE FOREST
A number of gipsy van-Dlewellers who live on spare land adjacent to Dalestorth-street, Sutton, appeared at Mansfield Police-court yesterday when Maria, Rebecca, and Henry Wiltshire were summoned for assaulting Ada Wiltshire , whilst Ada was cross-summoned by Maria and Rebecca, the latter also summoning Lydia Wiltshire. Ada said the bother commenced about midday on Easter Monday, when Maria first struck her in the mouth, and witness retaliated, and they fought. Then Maria sent for William Wiltshire and Rebecca, Witness was challenged by Rebecca and after they had fought, William thrashed her. An hour afterwards, when witness was going home, Rebecca met her, took her to a piece of level ground, and begged of her to fightin fact made her fight. After they had fought, Rebecca fetched Henry Wiltshire, and after they had thrown stones at her and the van in which she was living. Witness asked another woman to fetch a policeman, but before he came Henry ran at her (witness) and struck her, than she fell. While she was on the ground, Henry kicked her and then invited Rebecca, whilst she was exhausted, to give it to her. Mr. J. W. Fenoughty, Rotherham, addressed the Bench on behalf of the male defendant, and said he wished to know why his name had I been brought into those proceedings. On Saturday before Easter he was living with his wife at Arnold, and she left him, and he slept alone in the van on Saturday and Sunday nights. She took all the things away with her, and all the money, and said in a matter of fact, he had to sell the van as a means of substanance. In the box Henry Wiltshire bore out this statement, and denied striking his wife. After retiring the Chairman said the Bench had carefully considered the same. and had decided to dismiss the whole of them, the parties to pay the costs
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Would you be able to know if the Joseph Lewis below who is the Son of Sarah Lewis and who got killed in the war is the Grandson of Joeseph Wilsher
Friday 15 January 1915
Mansfield Reporter
Nottinghamshire
Barrow Boys Fined
Donaldson, of 12, Lower Eldon-street, Nottingham, £1; Walter Pike, of 47, Cardale-road. Nottingham, 10s. A case against Frank Owen, of 20, Cardale-road. Nottingham. stated to be new to the trade, was dismissed after he had given an undertaking
Friday 09 July 1915
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
LEWIS. Killed in action, June 21st, Pte. Joseph Lewis. Worcestershire Regiment, aged 25 years, dearly-loved son of Sarah Lewis. Hes gone, and the Lord hath redeemed him; Jesus has called him away from the night of darkness to the splendour of day. He did his duty. Deeply mourned
Tuesday 08 August 1916
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
VIOLENT HAWKER HANDED OVER TO THE MILITARY AUTHORITIES. At the Nottingham Guildhall to-day, Ernest Owen, 23, hawker, of 2, White Cow-court, pleaded guilty to being drunk and disorderly, and assaulting a police-officer, and refusing to quit a licensed premises. Mr. A. Barlow, who appeared to prosecute for the Licensed Victuallers' Association, explained that last
evening prisoner entered the Cricketers' public-house in Barker-gate in an apparently sober condition, and asked for some mineral water. He suddenly commenced to quarrel with the customers, became very violent, and after being ordered to leave several times was finally ejected by P.s. Rushton, whom he kicked on the leg. officer said prisoner's behaviour was extremely violent, and the landlord deposed that he got Owen out of the house once after he had quarrelled with his wife, but he returned and commenced throw things about. In answer to the magistrates, prisoner said he had been in the army, but was discharged. Det.-Supt. Atherton said he believed Owen was discharged for stealing. The Chief Recruiting Officer for the city informed the Bench that prisoner had said he had been in the army, but was discharged. Det.-Supt. Atherton said he believed Owen was discharged for stealing. The Chief Recruiting Officer for the city informed the Bench that prisoner had not registered or attested, and he claimed him for military service. The case was accordingly adjourned generally, and Owen was handed over to the military authorities.
Wednesday 26 June 1918
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
MAN AND A PONY.
At Ilkeston this morning Oliver Paddock, of Bulwell, was charged with stealing a pony, value £6 10s., the property of Robert Booth, Ilkeston
Monday 01 July 1918
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
IMPUDENT THEFT.
After selling a horse to Robert Booth at Ilkeston for £6 10s., a Nottingham man named Oliver Paddock, 24. armv deserter since January, stole it from the field and disposed of it to another man at Radford for £6 15s. he now pleaded guilty
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Monday 03 March 1919
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
. COULDN'T GET DRUNK OVERSEAS.
SOLDIER FINED FOR ASSAULTING NOTTINGHAM POLICEMAN.
For assaulting the Nottingham police on Saturday Ernest Owen, private in the Essex Regiment, on home leave from overseas, was fined at the Nottingham Bench to-day. He pleaded guilty to being drunk and disorderly, and Sarah Wiltshire had to pay 20s. for obstructing the police. at 10.35 p-m. Owen was creating with his wife and when told to go away he was violent and struck P.c. Clark with his fist. other constables went to Clark's assistance, and they had to drag him a distance of about a hundred yards. The woman Wiltshire did her best to get Owen away, hanging on to the police all the time. P.c. Clark described prisoner's conduct as that of a madman he declined to walk, so they had to carry him. Mr. A. F. Young, who appeared for Owen, said that one of the policemen had some ill feeling against him. He was having some words with his wife, when one of the policemen threatened to look him up. He retorted that they could not do that for a quarrell with his wife, whereupon they then proceeded to show him that they could, and further, the police opened the offensive hitting him, and he defended himself . Unfortunately, he got the worst of it when a whistle was blown and the first two officers were reinforced by two others, the soldier being then frog-marched to the Bath-street Police-station. Owen gave evidence, and admitted he was drunk at the time. The Constable: Why didn't you behave yourself? Accused: You can't get drunk in France or Germany. Two other soldiers, one wearing the ribbon of the D.C.M., and a discharged soldier were called to state that the police were the first to strike Owen, and one of them told the magistrates that the officers got him down and kicked him. Mr. T. Shipstone (chairman) said Owen had been getting into trouble ever since 1909, and they did not believe his story and that of his witnesses. He was fined as stated for the assault, and a similar amount for being drunk and disorderly. Wiltshire was fined 20s. for obstructing the police
Tuesday 04 March 1919
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
extract
Three other policemen went to the rescue, and the four of them had to drag Owen a distance of 100 yards. The women Sarah Wiltshire (who lives with Mrs Owen) did her best to get the man
away by hanging on to the police. Mr. A. F. Young (for Owen) suggested that the police were the aggressors, and that they frog-marched Owen to Bathstreet police-station
Friday 02 January 1920
Mansfield Reporter
Nottinghamshire
ALLEGED SAFE ROBBERY. In connection with the burglary at a Nottingham public-house on Christmas Day, when 18 bottles of champagne., together with cigars and cigarettes: and a safe, were stolen, two other men arrested. and they were remanded by the Nottingham magistrates on Monday. The prisoners, Oliver Paddock (24), hawker. and Wm. Wiltshire (21), hawker, Sutton, who were arrested at Mansfield Paddock, 24. hawker, Pipe-street; William Wilshire, alias Brewton, Paddock borrowed a sledge-hammer from a blacksmith to break open the safe
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Thursday 13 January 1921
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
TRAGIC END. A tragic pit accident was the subject of a inquest held yesterday by Mr. C. L. Bothers on John Archer (16). of King's Meadow-road, Nottingham, ganger, who was killed by a fall of coal following his employment at the Clifton Colliery last Monday Fred Ballington, corporal, who was working with Archer at the time of the accident stated
Monday 05 November 1923
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Frederick Ballington, aged 26, described as a navvy, of 193, Rupert-street, yesterday committed at the Quarter Sessions on a charge of unlawfully wounding and the wounded officer was P.c. Wain. Ballington who had his arm in a sling. Mr. F. Clayton/ prosecuted
Friday 23 May 1924
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
CRIPPLE BITES POLICEMAN. NOTTINGHAM HAWKER SENT PRISON- To-day crippled hawker named Frank Owen, 48, 74 Red Lion-street, was charged at the Nottingham Guildhall with assaulting a P.c. The officer stated that on the night
Friday 18 July 1924
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
CONSTABLE ATTACKED. NOTTM. HAWKER GETS MONTH 45TH APPEARANCE. Jack Lewis. 60, a hawker, made his 45th appearance at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day. and having heard a charge of being drunk in charge of a horse and dray, the magistrates sent Lewis to prison for a month
Wednesday 03 December 1924
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
A ROUGH CUSTOMER.
THREE MONTHS FOR DRUNKENNESS ASSAULTING THE POLICE.
Oliver Paddock, 32, of Pipe-street, a labourer, was at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day sent to prison for three months on charges
Saturday 06 December 1924
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
THE STREET.
everlasting drink, and boozing from Monday morning to Saturday said Mary Owen, 35, Pipe-street, giving evidence at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day against her husband, Owen, labourer, on a charge of assault. Complainant said he put her into the street late at night with a baby in her arms. She was obliged seek shelter at neighbour's house for the night, and on returning home the next, morning he nearly strangled her on the sofa. Prisoner was sent to gaol for a month.
Friday 12 June 1925
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
A BAD CHARACTER. PRISON FOR ASSAULT ON A POLICEMAN. Pleading guilty and saying that was very angry when it occurred, Ernest Owen (30), miner, of 35, Pipe-street, Nottingham, was at Nottingham Guildhall yesterday sent to prison for a month for being drunk
Thursday 11 June 1925
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
HOSTILE CROWD AND POLICEMAN.
SCENE AT A NOTTINGHAM ARREST.
Ernest Owen, 30. labourer, 35. pipe-street. Nottingam, was arrested for being drunk and disorderly in Southwell-road
Wednesday 11 November 1925
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
FIGHT OUTSIDE PUBLIC-HOUSE.
TWO NOTTINGHAM HAWKERS IN TROUBLE.
Nottingham Guildhall to-day Ishmael Owen hawker, 64. Red Lion Street, and Harry Stone. hawker, 15, New-yard, pleaded guilty to aasauting John Lewis of Clarence-street, on November 7th.
Monday 04 October 1926
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
NUISANCE TO THE POLICE. NOTTM. LABOURER'S INTERFERENCE COSTS MONEY. the Nottingham Guildhall to-day, Fred Ballington. 29, labourer, of 6, Harrington-street, was fined 20s on a charge of obstructing the police
Friday 08 April 1927
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
imprisonment, Fred Ballington (30), labourer, of 6, Harrington-street, He was stated by detictive-superlntendent Doubleday to be a most dangerous man, and the terror of the neighbourhood
Saturday 31 August 1929
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
SNEINTON HAWKER'S DEATH
COLLEAGUE'S STORY OF THE TRAGEDY. John Lewis, of Nottingham, hawker, who was with the deceased, said the party met at the King William IV. public-house at Nottingham at 2 o'clock.
Another man in the boat Charles Lewis, brother of the witness John Lewis, had had some drink. He did not see John Lewis until 5.50 p.m. The Coroner: He had been in the water
Saturday 28 December 1929
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
Just One More.
... crowds witnessed a liverly scene in Trinty-square, the principal figures of which were John Lewis. (30), hawker, and Charles Lewis who Were charged with being drunk and disorderly
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Monday 15 June 1931
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
NOTTM. HAWKER'S LAPSE. BUT HAD APPEARED BEFORE THE COURT MANY TIMES. Quite penitent for his lapse, John Lewis, 62, hawker, of 83, Clarence-street, stood before the magistrates at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day, and readily admitted that he was drunk in charge
Saturday 27 August 1932
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
AT HIS APPEARANCE.
NOTTINGHAM MAN'S GUILTY, PLEE MY LORD.
There was some amusement at the Nottingham Guildhall, to-day, when Ernest Owen, 39, a labourer, of 15, Ristes-place, Barker-gate, appeared on a charge of being drunk and disorderly in Stoney-street
Saturday 29 September 1934
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
at Nottingham Guildhall yesterday Henry Thorpe (36), of Hutchlnsonstreet, Nottingham, and Jack Lewis (37). hawker, of 6 Carlton-square, Walker - street. Nottingham, were Charged with assault.
Monday 03 June 1935
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
DEALER ON DRINK CHARGE
At the Nottingham Guildhall. A dealer named Charles Lewis, 29, of Rick-street, was found drunk in a doorway in Clumber-street, on Saturday. He had in his .possession 7s. lOd. According to a policeman Lewis was so drunk that he had to be almost carried
Tuesday 16 July 1935
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
William Ball, labourer, Victoria-place, Walker-sfreet, Harry Palmer, Labourer, Harrington-street, Sussex-street, and Frederick Ballington, Mount-square, Mount-street, were charged at an occasional sitting at the Shire Hall, Nottingham, to-day with night poaching
Friday 23 December 1938
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
CASE STRUCK OUT When John Lewis (37), hawker. Nottingham, appeared on a warrant at Nottingham Guildhall yesterday in respect to the maintenance of his wife Sarah Lewis, who did not appear. Det-supt said that apparently Mrs. Lewis had given her mother's address in Handel-street instead of her own. The police did not know where she lived and the mother had stated that she would try to get in touch with Mrs. Lewis and notify her that the case was to be heard to-day. He suggested that the case should be struck out. The magistrates (Messrs. H. D. Snook and A. E. Roe) ordered the case struck out
Friday 30 June 1939
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
hawker car driver, Prison for Man Who Is a Danger to the City Sentence two months imprisonment was passed upon Charles Lewis, a hawker, of Nottingham, who admitted at Nottingham Guildhall yesterday to being in charge of a motor-car
Thursday 07 March 1940
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
For His Own Safety
lying across the pavement in a drunken condition In Bath-street. Ernest Owen (47). of Carlton-road. Nottingham was at the Nottingham Guildhall yesterday fined It was stated that Owen, a hawker had a record, but had net bean before the court since February
Monday 17 June 1940
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Ernest Lewis, 54, hawker, of Robin Hood chase, who was found drunk in King Edward-street, said he had been out with a relative who had just returned
Thursday 06 November 1941
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
On 7th on the Nottingham-road, Holme Pierrepont, Samuel Owen was driving a pony and trap towards Nottingham when a 3-ton army motor lorry in pulling out to pass the trap struck the off side of the trap. Owen was thrown out of the trap and was slightly injured
Friday 02 October 1942
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
MURDER CHARGE Fatal Stabbing Alleged In Nottingham
Ernest Lewis, hawker, 49, Robin Hood-chase, said be had been drinking with Flynn and Raney earlier in the evening, and there was sign of ill feeling
Tuesday 18 October 1949
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire, England
DESERVED PUNISHMENT. a stranger to Mansfield, but not quite unknown to the police, by the name James Owen, a hawker, who went into the Swan Hotel vaults on Saturday night a few minutes to eleven, and befere the waiter, James Phelputts, could
Monday 20 February 1950
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
BIRTHS. MARRIAGES AND DEATHS.
PADDOCK -Oliver died February 20th In memory I see him just the same, as long I live I will treasure his name Loving daughter Vina and grandchildren PADDOCK Oliver. In loving memory. February 20th 1949. Always a grievous heartache often a silent tear I gaze in your own special corner, and see your vacant chair
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Some of these are extremely interesting... Ernest Owen seemed like a lively character. Interesting to see Sarah and Mary in news reports with him.
I need to start researching ways of getting criminal mug shots of people... I would so much love to see the people of old.
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Remember that for every record found in the Newspapers reguarding situations that tell of certain storys, well trust me, if a man goes to court for poaching, he will have been poaching maybe hundreds of times, if a man is up in court for fighting, well again he is a fighting man, you will have the one offs in life, but trust me, use the records i show you to understand, for every time a man is taken by the police, well a hundred times before he got away with it, a bit of this or a bit of that can happen, but i am sure you know what i am saying, i will start looking at the Woodwards soon for you, there seems to be lots over this way, i know the records have them with the Wilshers over many times as Gipsys, i just can not work out why there are Woodwards going back a long time in Nottingham, maybe lots this way are not the same Woodwards, i will put everything on for you in some weeks time
can you find out if Joseph Lewis who was killed in WW1 was the grandson of old Joseph Wilsher, it says in the record i showed you that his Mother was Sarah, a Sarah married that Lewis man you said, so young Joe Lewis may be of the Gipsys, if he is hes going on the Gipsy Roll of Honour, try and find out will you
can you tell me when the boy David died, how old was he, my Mother told me about him, was he rearly Rebeccas child, if you tell me the dates things maybe will make sence to me, i still remember my Mother talking of a David, it would be good for me to know the truth, there was an old photo of a young Boy who was a sickly child and a scarf round his kneck, but that could have been one of my older brothers, my Mother would then talk of a David, you told me you found him burried with Rebecca, and Rebeccas Mother Mariah, and Rebeccas brother William, you said it was Young William for it told of the date so you must know the date of David, will you tell me, young William used to say his name was David Hartley, this must of been before the Boy David who is in the grave was born, so i think there is an older David, Rebecca named uncle Billy after all the Williams going back generations, she named my Mother after herself, if you look at one of the census reports with Mariah on it says Maria R wilsher, or Wiltshire or Wiltshaw, i think that R could be Rebecca meaning its another past down name, i would like to find out the real truth and you may be able to help me
these are the census reports as you wrote and as Sue sent me, they have the Mariah R Wilsher stated, i was just wandering does the R meen Rebecca
1901 Censuses
Civil parish-Pleasley
Ecclesiastical parish-Shirebrook Holy Trinity
Town-Shirebrook
County/Island-Derbyshire
Country-England
Registration district-Mansfield
Family two-Travelling vans
Name-William Wilt Shaw, Age-21
Name-Maria R Wilt Shaw nee Hartley, Age-20
Name-Rebecca Wilt Shaw, Age-4
Name-William Wilt Shaw, Age-2
1901: CENSUS* INDEXED AS WILT-SHAW SO DOUBLE BARRELLED!!!
.Nottinghamshire, England Civil parish: Pleasley Ecclesiastical parish: Shirebrook Holy Trinity Town: Shirebrook County/Island: Derbyshire Country:
* Lots there in caravans:+
William Wilt Shaw 21 B Woodsetts, Derbyshire pot hawker
Maria R Wilt Shaw 20 Hul Yorkshire
Rebecca Wilt Shaw 4 Sheffield, Yorkshire
William Wilt Shaw 2 b Notinghamshire
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Sarah Lewis nee Wilsher/Wilshire was Born in 1900 so I do not believe Joseph Lewis would be her child... The dates are out but I can check with some one from that line.
The data you asked for...
Holmes, David (Aka Ward)
burial 02 December 1940
death 27 November 1940
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Do you know how old David was, or when he was he born, do you know how and why he died, my Mother was alive when he was alive so the story adds up, she told me he was ill, do you know anything
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Sorry I don't, that was the information I found when buying the Burial registers from William, Maria and Rebecca... Best bet if to trace the death certificate, which should not be too hard seeing as you have the date and area being Nottingham...
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How do you do that, can i do it online, tell me how to get the record will you, if you just explain it i will do it, thank you for all the storys
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How do you do that, can i do it online, tell me how to get the record will you, if you just explain it i will do it, thank you for all the storys
I will check the registers tomorrow for the codes, the certificate cost is £11.
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sound, nice one
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Hi Michael hope your well :)this shows his age as 1 at death
Name: David Holmes
Death Registration Month/Year: 1940
Age at death (estimated): 1
Registration district: Nottingham
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b/Page: 391
1939* (on the 1939 register his birth is 6th April 1939)
Ward Household (7 People)
35 Clarence Street , Nottingham C.B., Nottinghamshire
Albert Ward 08 Feb 1898 Male Gen Lab Handyman Married
Rebecca Ward 17 Sep 1898 Female Housewife Married
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
David Ward 06 Apr 1939 Male Under School Ag
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I do hope all is well Sue and your Family fine, hows life treating you then, i am not long back from barbados, it was a nice place, i went several weeks ago for two weeks, thank you for putting up the record, its a great find, all these yeares Sue no one in the family knows of David, i am the only living person who was told to my knowledge, now with your help and Skys i have learned much more, i know much more to, i have to stop everything now and write for them, you and Sky were chosen to help me, now its my turn, and another thing Sue, you can say anything you want, i rearly mean that, i am not the least afraid of the truth, i will write soon for the things that you and Sky brought to me, i have been looking in my own way a long time, i know many things, to understand the past is to understand understanding, most of my teachings in life came down from People who others could never understand, i love genealogy, and i,m not afraid of nothing, i,m so proud i glow in the light, the dark is for the shadows, i,v been there to, if you find anything please put it on here, but let me write a few words first, it mignt take me a week, or maybe i mignt write back tomorrow, thank you again for your help, your one of the Greatest ever Genealogist ever, your a bit crackers to, but not as crackers as me, look after yourself and just be happy, thank you again i will write back soon with the true story
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That saved me a job, If you have a email I can sent you the death certificate of Maria Wilsher nee Hartley, plus the birth, marriage and death of Rebecca Wilsher.
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Hi Michael wow lucky you Barbados :) Will pop on from time to time for when you have posted keep well:)
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That saved me a job, If you have a email I can sent you the death certificate of Maria Wilsher nee Hartley, plus the birth, marriage and death of Rebecca Wilsher.
Thank you very much, i am very grateful for such a kind offer, thank you, when i am finished writing about a few things i will put everything on for you, not just you i want to help all people evan in the future who are related to the people we talk about, i want them to know of the peoples, its a hard job for if its all new to a person i dont think that person would have a feel for the truth, that's why i write to bring the feel, to many, nearly everyone writes just for themselves, its a narrow train of thought, that's how i see others writings, you just can not imagine how many story's of many Gipsy family's throughout Britain i have researched, i have listened to certain people over the yeares say certain things as to how the truth is, would it do any good for me to just destroy them with the real truth, well they try and destroy dead Gipsy people with the peddling false narrative of what they think is the best way for themselves to look good, that's what genealogy is for many just an opputunity for people to show of or look good, no matter the truth, no matter what you left out, no matter the lies, lots of people are not evan proud of the dead, they say things like, ho look that's one of mine, ho and look wasn't they a naughty lot, herrm, they say, and move on to more cold census reports, just like the cold war memorials that no one bothers about, i write for the truth, the trouble is no one or most dont like the truth, it ruffles them, agitates them, i want everyone who as an interest in all the genealogy history of all the Gipsy peoples to know the real truth, like the Woman would do lots of the work in getting money, i new this from being born, then when i came on the internet i started listening about how a Woman stays at home cleaning all these pots and hoovering all the time, and them so proud of it to, when did that start happening, in the olden times the Gipsy Woman was the bread winner, the back bone of the family, crafty cunning, fantastic, this is how i see it, many times they were treated real bad and evan hammered rotten, let people today live there truth of today, i dont write for them, they can write there own cleaning pots and hoovering talk, sure there wasn't evan hoovers around yeares ago, like a woman got up and started Brillo padding the tent, sure everyone would have thought she was crackers, how can people think the way they do, i will write of real history with the real proof of family storeys that i was told and now backed up with hard evidence that what i was told was true, the Gipsy Family's have been systematically lied about for yeares and not a person is one bit put out about this, well i will try and help any relative of mine who in the futures feels the need to see through the rubbish that has been wrote, and lots alive now from old Gipsy Family's believe the false narrative for sometimes it makes them look good at the expense of the wider Gipsy community, no one really wants to respect the Dead Gipsies, that's fair enough, they can write as they feel, i am just trying my best the way i feel, i have lots more to learn and write about, i respect and understand all the dead, keep up the good work, thank you again i find the information you have posted over these months most helpfull
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Re: Ward family Nottingham
« Reply #5 on: Friday 01 February 19 14:14 GMT (UK) »
A Albert Ward 1898-1981 marriage my 1st cousin 4 x removed Rebekah... Rebekah Wilsher Settled in Nottingham along with many other Romani gypsy Wilsher/Wilshaw/Wiltshire/Wilshire. Not sure if Albert would be linked to your Ward's though.
Hi Sky, you have talked a few times regarding Albert Ward, firstly my Mother said to me one day while we were talking of the history of people, well she said Albert Ward told her he was related to a family named Copestake, now how mad is this, well I was researching and found a Albert Ward fitting the dateline, and guess what, hes living with his Grandmar at a place not far from where we talk of, its called Copstake Yard,
Tuesday 30 May 1922
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
extract
SNATCHED A BAG.
HAWKER'S IMPUDENT THEFT IN NOTTINGHAM STREET.
Albert Ward (22). a hawker, 3, Cope-stake yard, St. Ann's Well-road, Nottingham, was sentenced to a month's imprisonment by Nottingham magistrate's yesterday for stealing a handbag and a purce containing 3s. and a cigarette case, etc., valued at £2. from Mrs. Ethel M. Tomlinson she said that Ward, whom she knew, came up to her on Long-row last Thurday afternoon, and asked her to go to the pictures with him. She refused, and shortly afterwards he snatched her bag, containing the money, etc., from her and ran away. She caught him up on Smith's he denied ever having had the bag She had him arrested. He bad been drinking. Ward said that it was through the drink that he committed the theft. He also pleaded guilty to a charge of failing to observe the conditions of his probation under which the court placed him in April. The probation officer said that Ward lived with his grandmother, to whom he had been a lot of trouble to. The magistrates ordered a payment to Mrs Tomlinson out of the £3 odd found on Ward
Albert ran with the Gipsies from beying young, he new the Wilshers well and they trained him up good, one day somone may find out that one of his parents is related to a family named Copestake, Albert was a legend yeares ago, the Gipsies named him Lino its true, history says he was one of the best at the Lino game, one day one of my brothers told me when they was young they went with Albert to the old central market, its gone now, well Albert nudged my brother and said look chavay, do you fancy some eggs for dinner, he would also talk more in the Gipsy words but I will not write them on here for its not good to do that, and then Albert started talking to one of the market men selling eggs, he said to the barrowboy, Here my good man, would you be having any cracked eggs for an old war veteran the barrow boy scanned old Albert over and said never mind cracked eggs sir, put these in the bag and look after yourself now Albert and my brother had a good dinner that day, and it never evan cost nothing, he would do tricks like that, the strange thing he had thousands of pounds hidden in his house, my Mother told him of bad for doing it, he was old then and my Mother said another relative visited and robbed some, but I wont mention their name, Alberts house had all that dark furniture that they used to have, and a giant leopard ornament, and little stuffed birds in big glass jars, plus he had a bird in a cage, but he left the door open and it used to fly around the house, he cooked rotten food to, I would not touch it, it was cows or sheep's brain, it was bubbling in a pot of water, how rubbish is that, and a thing called tripe, no way would I eat that, he cooked his eggs on a piece of tin foil under the grill,
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continued
He had the Gipsy kneck tie on and always a dark suit, plus a big hat, if you talk in the cant you may call it a kadey Albert could talk good cant as well as the Gipsy talk, it all sounded the same to me, my Mother said to me that her Mother and Grandmar would talk the Gipsy talk all the time about everyday things, thats how I learned them, for my Mother did the same, she was very young when her mam died, it was a very bad time for my Mother, she told me of these times, it took about a year for her Mother to die, she got a illness inside after being assaulted, my Mother tried to find out what happened, but no one would tell my Mother, my own Mother to died from the same inside illness, she to had it brought on when she was walking past Sneinton Market when a big door of a freezer lorry swung open fast and struck her, that was the beginning of the end for my Mother, well guess what I found this record below
Thursday 10 April 1941
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Nottm. Assault Charge George Smith, of Keswick-street, Sneinton, appeared at the Nottingham Summons Court to-day, and pleaded not guilty to assaulting Rebecca Holmes, of Clarence-street, on March 31st ... Rebecca Holmes said Smith entered her house, kicked her on the leg, and gave her a black eye. Smith was bound over to be of good behaviour for a year in the sum of £5, and ordered to pay 4s. costs
I wander if its the same Gipsy Smith family line we would visit, they said we were cousins, one of them was named Sid, like one of the Smiths from the Keswick street storys below, my Mother was very fond of them all, there are lots of Smiths around the town in the times of the Wilshers, in the record it is stated that the fellow was named Goerge Smith of Keswick street, thats just over the road from everybody and just over the road from where I was born, well I have found records relating to this family of Smiths, i wander are they of the Gipsies, are they related to the Wilshers or who are they related to, I have many records of the Smiths this way and the Wilshers, I can not yet put their names together in storys, I can George well Gipsy George Smith, I dont know which George is the fellow in the record above, he may be a local man, and what was he doing there, and more why did everyone alive keep the truth from my Mother, hopfully one day I will learn the truth, old Joeseph Wilsher who you write about seems to settle first in Nottingham, Williams lot were still on the go traverling about the Shires, wild they was, I will soon put every record I have on of all the Wilshers to help you understand, then I will be off, I will finnish the Gipsy Roll of Honour page, that will not take long now for I have all the names ready, I will not put up lots of storys of there wider familys becourse if I do I will never get to finnish, I will let others add things if they wish and also if I missed any names out, others in the future can enlarge the page, but at least it will be a start,
So next I will put the records on I found about the things I have been telling you, everything is just extracts, you must signe up to the Newspaper Archives web site for the fuller more indeph transcript, I will not be here much longer
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Friday 28 December 1923
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
extract
a charge of larceny against two Nottingham men. Albert Ward and William Wiltshire, both of 22. Woburn-street, hawkers, and they were discharged. They were jointly then charged with stealing a piece of linoleum the property of James Todd, Dealer, Leicester, at Ilkeston, on 20 December
Friday 13 June 1924
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
extract
Albert Ward (24), of 22. Woburn-Street, Nottinghan. who, along with Frank Wiltshire (23), of the same address, both hawkers, were at Nottingham's Guildhall yesterday charged with stealing 18 yards of linoleum, value £9 13s. 6d. Nottingham, the two men visited Messrs shop on 4 June, offering to buy remnants of lino. They were told none was on offer they went away, but later returned and and during the temporary absence of the student, helped themselves to a roll of 18 yards and walked off. It was later discovered in a yard in Castle-gate, Police-constable Greasley said on the 31 May they were stated to have called at Herbert Shepherd with a roll of lino which they alleged measured 12 yards, Shepherd gave them £2 15., but subsequently ascertained that there was only six yards, The prisoners accused each other of being the real thief, and in regard to the trick charge, declared they gave no guarantees. They were each sent to Prison for three months for the theft of the lino. In the second charge they were given the benefit of the doubt
Friday 11 June 1926
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
DISCHARGED WITH A WARNING.
FAILURE OF PROSECUTION AGAINST NOTTM. HAWKERS.
A somewhat unusual charge of attempting to obtain 10s by false pretences was against two hawkers at the Nottingham Guildhall today. They were Albert Ward. 26, 113 Red Lion-street, and Frank Wiltshire, 23, of 22 Woburn-street. and R. A. Young, who defended them, pleadad not guilty. Charles Pratt, 4, Castle-square. Houndsgate. said they called at his house and offered him eight yards of inlaid lino, saying they had been working for a Leeds firm at Castle-boulevard and that the stuff was the remnant of a job. , Pratt was suspicious that the stuff had been stolen, and first refused to buy it for the £4 which was asked, but subsequently agreed a price and gave them a deposit of 15s.6d., asking them to call again. In the meantime he informed the police, and when the men returned Detective-officers Winfield and Blakey met them. They Both ran away, but were caught, and subsequently admitted that they had not been doing a job for a Leeds firm on Castleboulevard.It was stated that there were 5 yards in the roll, and not 8 yards, an expert said it was printed linoleum, and worth about 27s.6d. in reply to Mr. Young, Pratt said they allowed him to look at the stuff, and agreed that if his wife, who was out at the time, did not approve of it, he would of returned his 15s 6d. deposit. Mr. Young argued that the puffing of wares was not an offence. He agreed that commercial tricks of that sort were not commendable, and perhaps there ought to be some limit to the margin of profit that could be obtained, but the case did not amount to fraud, Pratt was left with the stuff to inspect it. The magistrates Dr Blurton and Mr A. Eblerlin dismissed the case, but told accused to more careful in the future
Thursday 02 November 1933
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
extract
Oilcloth Deal Sequel. Nottingham Miner Fined £2O. a roll of oilcloth was exhibited at the Nottingham Shire Hall yesterday, when Albert Ward (M), of Alfred-street North, Nottingham, miner, appeared on a charge of obtaining by false pretences from Harold Powell Dixon, of Midland-terrace, Stapleford. and of peddling without a hawkers licence. Ward pleaded not guilty. Dixon said that in Octtober Ward came to his house with the oilcloth and he payed for It, it turned out to be a smaller measurement to that which it thought he payed for, P.c Carter said the oilcloth was four yards by two of poor quality, and valued at about 5s. Ward said that he would like to buy it at that price. Supt. Rodgers-did you hit him on the head with a piece of oilcloth?No, Im not Samson. Mrs. Rebecca Holmes, pedlar, who accompanied Ward, said that when Dixon said he wanted his money back Ward said he could not give it to him after spending half an hour over the deal. a long list of previous convictions was read against Ward and the chairman. Mr J. lewin described his record as a terrible one. i have not been in trouble for some time. said Ward. We notice, said the chairman, that it is now eight years since you were sent to prison for a similar offence but cant overlook this. You will be fined or two months' imprisonment. He was given a month to pay
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Wednesday 27 January 1937
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
The offenders were Maria Wiltshire, 58, housewife, of Clarence-street, and Rebecca Holmes, 38, pedlar, of Alfred-street South. They pleaded guilty, the Mother explained that she had had some friends over from Sheffield and took a drop too much. the Daughter, who wore a bunch of violets in her fur coat remembered the constable coming up to them. We had had a lot of drink and I am very sorry it has happened, she added. It was their first offence. The Chairman (Mr. W. Wesson) : The magistrates are going to be very lenient. You will be discharged
Friday 30 June 1939
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
THEFT BY A TRICK CHARGE
HYSON GREEN WOMANS LOSS.
Albert Ward, 39, hawker, of Clarence-street, was charged at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day with stealing 14s. by means of trick from Florence Winifred Astill, of 9, St. Pauls-terrace
She picked him out in a Identity parade
Friday 14 July 1939
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire extract
extract
NO EVIDENCE OFFERED
Case Collapses When Albert Ward, 39, hawker, of 35 Clarence-street, Nottingham, appeared on remand at the Guildhall, to-day, Mr. Swift said he had advised the prosecution to offer no evidence against him. Defendant was thereupon discharged. Previously, Ward had been
charged with stealing 14s. by means of trick from Florence W. Astill of St. Pauls-terrace
Thursday 10 April 1941
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Nottm. Assault Charge George Smith, of Keswick-street, Sneinton, appeared at the Nottingham Summons Court to-day, and pleaded not guilty to assaulting Rebecca Holmes, of Clarence-street, on March 31st ... Rebecca Holmes said Smith entered her house, kicked her on the leg, and gave her a black eye. Smith was bound over to be of good behaviour for a year in the sum of £5, and ordered to pay 4s. costs
Wednesday 20 October 1943
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
WHAT IS LINO? Nottm. Hawker Fined £10 For obtaining £7 by false pretence with intent to defraud, AlbertWard, of 243, Alfred, street Central, Nottingham, hawker, was fined £10, or two months in default, at the Guildhall to-day. Det.-insp. Blakey said that defendant visited the shop of Marion Kerby, 168, Main-street, Bulwell, with a roll of what he said was rubber-lined linoleum, he had been laying lino at a public-house near by, and had some over. He told the complainant it was worth 12gns., but but his price was £7. Because of his persistence she bought it, Complainant said she did not want the stuff. She bought it to get rid of him. She thought
it was real linoleum, and would fit her room. It was not linoleum at all, and did not fit the room. It was worth 30s. A witness in the trade material said in this case it was not linoleum, and was not rubber-lined. It was known as a felt base, and was one of the cheapest kinds of floor covering of its class that could be bought. For the piece of the size in question the selling price would be about 30s. In reply to Mr. J. E. Black, defending, witness said that customers often use the word lino when they did not actually mean lino. Proper traders always pointed out the difference. D.C. Burrows said that when he charged defendant, the latter replied, No false pretence defendant denied he ever said it was rubber lined linoleum.it was a kind of lino
and he told the complainant she was not under any obligation to buy, Mr black submitted that complainant admitted that she saw what she was buying, and the word linoleum coverd a number of floor coverings. Blakey said defendant had been known to them since 1919, and had been a fairly regular customer ever since. Mr. Black pointed out that since 1937 defendant had been going straight
Saturday 11 May 1946
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
RUG THIEF FINED
I took them out at dinner time. His companion, Albert Ward, 46, a hawker, of 243, Alfred-street Central, was charged with receiving the rugs, and was sent to prison for four months. Ward denied all knowledge of the rugs,
It was stated that Ward had been before the court 11 times since 1922, mainly on charges of false ... pretences
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Saturday 29 April 1933
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
LOCAL HAPPENINGS
At the Nottingham Guildhall, to-day, giving evidence Thomas Smith,- 58, hawker, of Henry-place. Keswick-street, who was fined for being drunk in charge of a pony in Clumber-street yesterday
Thursday 13 July 1933
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
TO ABSTAIN FROM DRINK
At the Nottingham Guildhall to-day of charged with being on enclosed premises for unlawful purpose, Sydney Smith, 21, labourer, Henry place, Keswick-street, and Alfred Parker. 19, labourer, of no fixed abode, were placed on probation for two years, on condition being that they Abstain from drink
Friday 24 November 1939
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
STOLE A MOTOR CYCLE. Two Nottingham men, Sidney Smith, 28, hawker, and Andrew Doyle, 24, labourer, both of Keswick-street, pleaded guilty at Derby to-day to stealing a motor cycle belonging to Geo. Burman at Chaddesden. The case was dismissed under the Probation of Offenders Act, and they were ordered to pay 10s. each as costs
Monday 24 February 1941
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
extract
cases brought to the hospital by City ambulances on Saturday night .and were allowed to go home after receiving treatment in the Casualty Department They were George Smith, of 4. Keswick-street. who was suffering from head injuries, having either fallen down or been knocked down in the black-out
Thursday 07 September 1944
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
extract
Nottm. Man Fined At Mansfield Stated to have upwards of 50 convictions, mostly for minor offences, George Smith. of 4 Keswick - street. Nottingham. was fined three guineas at Mansfield Police Court yesterday for using obscene language in the Mansfield cattle market
Thursday 07 February 1946
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
DROPPED scales and ran Patrol Caught Nottm. Man
At the magistrates to-day, given the benefit, Sidney Smith, 34, scrap dealer, of 4, Keswick-street,
found not guilty of of stealing a set of shop scales value £l6, but they convicted him of receiving the scales, knowing them to have been stolen. sentenced to one month
17 August 1946
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
TOYS FOR RAGS
By delivering toys to persons under 14, at Beeston, on August Ist. ~ Defendant, Andrew Doyle, a rag dealer, of 4, Keswick-street, Sneinton-road, Nottingham, was discharged under the Probation of Offenders Act, and ordered to pay the costs
Thursday 07 August 1947
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
How He Got His Black Eye
Appearing at the Nottingham Guildhall. to-day, with a swollen face and a black eye, Sidney Smith, 37, dealer, of 4, Keswick-street, Nottingham, was fined £2 for being drunk and. disorderly in Trinity-square last night. He told the magistrates that he had been to a fair. Major W. Foster: Where did yon get that black eye? Smith: I was kicked. Major Foster: By horse Smith: No. sir, by the Police. P.c. Tomlinson said there was no fight. Smith was drunk, and the injury might have been caused by failing down
Tuesday 24 February 1948
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
Hostel Scene
Because he could not get a bed in the Salvation Army hostel in Aberdeen street, Nottingham. Christopher Smith, of 4, Keswick-street, broke the woodwork and the door and burst the look, it was stated at the Nottingham Guildhall, to-day. He was fined £3 and £1 costs for damaging the door. John Robert Foster night porter, and Lieut. Nicholls, Salvation Army officer, both said defendant was worse for drink and used obscene language when told there was not a bed available
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Do you think this is Rebecca's Brother, his age is right, i am sure at any one time there is more Williams about, have you in your records a Amelia Wilsher
Everything below extracts
Monday 30 January 1922
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
ALLEGED BIGAMY AT A NOTTINGHAM CHURCH.
William Wilshire, 23 hawker, of no fixed abode, I was remanded at the Nottingham Guildhall today charged with committing bigamy with Rose Phillips, a single woman, at St. Andrew's Church, August 18th, 1919. D.c. Gregory saw the prisoner detained at Hyson Green police station last night. When the warrant was read he said Yes, I know you have been after me. Prisoner was remanded to a special sitting on Friday
Saturday 04 February 1922
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
William Willsher (23). hawker, was also committed to the Assises. The charge against him was that he married Rose Phillips on 18 August, 1919. his wife, Amelia, whom he married in May, 1915. being still alive. Rose Phillips, of 10. Sidney-street. Nottingham, said that she met Wilsher in June, 1919. Later they went to Grimsby, and returning to Nottingham were married in St. Mary's Church. The man told her he was single, but four months ago she discovered he was married. A man Mr Lewis gave evidence for he was the witness to the wedding
Thursday 09 February 1922
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
LUCKY ESCAPE.
VERDICT OF NOT GUILTY FOR ALLEGED BIGAMIST.
Owing to a legal flaw, a verdict of not guilty was returned at the Notts. Assizes to-day in the case of William Willsher, who was charged with bigamousley marrying a woman named Rose Phillips, whilst his former wife was alive. The legal wife had disappeared, and consequently it was not proven in coart that she was alive at the time of the second marriage. Mr. Justice Horridge directed the jury to find a verdict of not guilty. He said that the police were not able to bring the evidence which would prove the case . Evidence of this kind ought always to be forthcoming. The verdict was returned as directed, and Willsher left the court a free man
And do you see Sidney street is next to Colwick street which is next to Gedling street and Woburn-Street on the story above is near to Has is Keswick street, and Clarence-street, is next to Storer street and the Lewis man lived there to, Sneinton is mad you have opened my eyes to things, it was Sneinton on the border to St Anns, that was the hub, the Market place, it was jam packed with all types of peoples making there way in life, thats why it was an attractive place for people on the deal, most of the stopping placers where more on the edge of the town, you have made me see much more, Nelson street is there to, the only street left with its name in the market
https://www.streetcheck.co.uk/postcode/ng11dr do you see Brook street on the map, its next to Gedling street, Brook street used to be Colwick street, Woburn street is next to Colwick street in the past, then theres Fyne street next to them where James Wilsher lived, wait till you hear of him, hes mad wild
Thursday 08 February 1923
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
EDITOR'S LETTER BAG.
An Insanitary Street. I wish to draw attention to the very filthy condition of Sidney-street, off Colwick-street. So much muck, &c, should not be allowed to remain about. It's a nuisance, a danger to residents, and grevious eyesore
Monday 15 June 1931
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
NOTTM. HAWKER'S LAPSE.
BUT HAD APPEARED BEFORE THE COURT MANY TIMES.
Quite penitent for his lapse, John Lewis, 62, hawker, of 83, Clarence-street, stood before the magistrates at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day, and readily admitted that he was drunk in charge' of a pony and barrow sixty times
Wednesday 25 November 1931
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
POLICE OFFICERS' JUMP ON MOVING CAR
BAD LANGUAGE CHARGE.
Frank Wiltshire, 28, a hawker, of Nelson-street, was charged with using obscene language. P.c. Hoskins said accused entered Leen-side police station with the prisoner in the previous case. Wiltshire was very argumentative, a man named Edward Ward Hawker was also charged along with Frank Wiltshire
Wednesday 13 September 1933
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
ON RECEIVING CHARGE Nottingham Man fined at Long Eaton. A fine of three guineas was imposed on Frank Wiltshire, hawker, of Nelson street, Nottingham, at Long Eaton police court yesterday. He was charged with the alleged theft of a quantity of brass
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Is Frank Wiltshire above the same Frank Wiltshire below you wrote about, the age is right, this ties them all together
4 Brothers Christian...
Baptism-20th April 1881
Place-Saint Phillip's, Sheffield, York, England.
Christian Children:
Fred Wilsher 1870
Jim Wilsher 1875 abt
William Wilsher 1878 abt
Walter Wilsher 1881 abt
Parents:
Joseph (Joe) Wilsher 1844
Maria Wilsher nee Knight 1847
Boyling and Wilsher blood line
Angereena Boyling 1893 is the Grandchild of Thomas Boyling 1836 and Harriett Wilshaw 1842.
Angereena Boyling 1893 married Fred Wilsher 1889 in Doncaster 1914....
The Spelling of the last name
So I had certificates turn up for the same family....
Brothers and sister
Frank Wilcher 1903
Sarah Wilshire 1900
Henry Wilshire 1886
Joseph Wiltshire 1884
Their grandfather
Joseph Wilshaw 1844
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Well it would seem Joseph Wilsher and Elizabeth Wilsher nee Woodward were still moving around till at least 1903... With one of their son's Frank being born in a van at 1903 in Worksop, Nottinghamshire.
Their son Henry Wilsher and Mary Earl plus Joseph Wilsher 1907(my great gran father) are at Rawmarsh, Rotherham in a 1911 census... With Henry and Joseph being in Nottingham by about the 1920s.
Romani language has been a interest to me,
I purchased 4 books on the subject, Hanock Handbook of Vlax Romani, Learn romani Ronald Lee, Romani dictionary: English- Kalderash Lee, Romani dictionary: Kalderash - English Lee...
Kalderash Romani seems to be the most documented language style, yet there seems to be countless branches of it... Learning it from books is a problem too, because you need to hear it, but its good information. -
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Have you come across an Amelia Wilsher, William married young according to this record, Rebecca wed at 15, do you know how many Williams there was in the timescale of the early 1900s, there maybe could be to lots of Williams, its a big name in the Wilshers
Saturday 04 February 1922
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
William Willsher (23). hawker, was also committed to the Assises. The charge against him was that he married Rose Phillips on 18 August, 1919. his wife, Amelia, whom he married in May, 1915. being still alive. Rose Phillips, of 10. Sidney-street. Nottingham, said that she met Wilsher in June, 1919. Later they went to Grimsby, and returning to Nottingham were married in St. Mary's Church. The man told her he was single, but four months ago she discovered he was married. A man Mr Lewis gave evidence for he was the witness to the wedding
Is Frank Wiltshire below born 1903 the same Frank with Albert, the dates are right
Brothers and sister
Frank Wilcher 1903
Sarah Wilshire 1900
Henry Wilshire 1886
Joseph Wiltshire 1884
Their grandfather
Joseph Wilshaw 1844
Friday 11 June 1926
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
DISCHARGED WITH A WARNING.
FAILURE OF PROSECUTION AGAINST NOTTM. HAWKERS.
A somewhat unusual charge of attempting to obtain 10s by false pretences was against two hawkers at the Nottingham Guildhall today. They were Albert Ward. 26, 113 Red Lion-street, and Frank Wiltshire, 23, of 22 Woburn-street. and R. A. Young, who defended them, pleadad not guilty. Charles Pratt, 4, Castle-square. Houndsgate. said they called at his house and offered him eight yards of inlaid lino, saying they had been working for a Leeds firm at Castle-boulevard and that the stuff was the remnant of a job. , Pratt was suspicious that the stuff had been stolen, and first refused to buy it for the £4 which was asked, but subsequently agreed a price and gave them a deposit of 15s.6d., asking them to call again. In the meantime he informed the police, and when the men returned Detective-officers Winfield and Blakey met them. They Both ran away, but were caught, and subsequently admitted that they had not been doing a job for a Leeds firm on Castleboulevard.It was stated that there were 5 yards in the roll, and not 8 yards, an expert said it was printed linoleum, and worth about 27s.6d. in reply to Mr. Young, Pratt said they allowed him to look at the stuff, and agreed that if his wife, who was out at the time, did not approve of it, he would of returned his 15s 6d. deposit. Mr. Young argued that the puffing of wares was not an offence. He agreed that commercial tricks of that sort were not commendable, and perhaps there ought to be some limit to the margin of profit that could be obtained, but the case did not amount to fraud, Pratt was left with the stuff to inspect it. The magistrates Dr Blurton and Mr A. Eblerlin dismissed the case, but told accused to more careful in the future
Good luck with the books, just enjoy yourself, It would not be of interest to me, there are lots of books on-line free to read at your pleasure, books like the parson of Lincoln, in these types of books they tell of the Gipsy words that was spoken by the Gipsies of this land, you may find things like this more to your likeing, plus you get to read of their life, of course lots is left out, strange how you say your Father new nothing, his own dad must of just pulled away from everything to not pass nothing down, I Guess I was very lucky that through the relatives they passed much down to me, your always going on about Romany's, that's how lots of people talk, I do not think there are as many Romany's left as people think and that word is just banded and branded about, I try not to use that word out of respect, if you never was told nothing or your Dad, you just would not understand what I am saying, of course this is just how I feel, I do not think theres a single person alive who thinks like I do, I don't mind tho being the only one to say such things, I would say there are Romany Family's about in this day for sure, but again I will not say no more on this, as long as people in the future who read my words know I don't go using such talk, if I have ever talked stupid in the past, well, what can you do, we all make mistakes, I did remember my Mother talking of the Holmes, she said they was a very Old Romany Family, in this day tho its all gone crackers, you have to have this, you have to have that, its like you have to have a Gipsy pass-port, and thousands say they have one to, this is how you know the Romany, they just let the world go by and just laugh, well, I don't know if they do, I just imagine that's what a Romany would do with all the talk I have listened to over about ten yeares, I may be wrong, but good luck with your books, I am just a scrag end, something what the cat draged in, my Mother said I was as radged as a brush, she said I talked like a goat to, and more she often said when I came home from being out all day wandering all over, well, she said, look at ya, you look like you've been draged through an hedge backwards, one day me and my Brothers realised that we was all radged, we called it the radgedness, you just cannot help it, its born in you, you will never know of it, only if your radged, that's just the truth of it, you wont find that in the books
Will you answer the questions above about Frank and Amelia
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It would seem a good bet it is the same Frank Wilshire... I have tried tracing any kids of Frank but have been unable, he was married though.
Amelia Wilsher is a new name to me, I can do some looking and fine a marriage if it happen.
The William one is a hard one though, I have mapped out a extremely large and detailed Wilsher tree, with every type of document you could think of, I still believe the tree should be about double the size... The problem is some lines just vanish and some births are before certificates/census. Which makes it extremely hard to add correct places.
James Wilsher also seems like a name that pops up in news reports, and in branches of trees, I am unable to match to my own because of correct proof.
My grandad Joseph always made clear of our heritage and was extremely proud, but never overly talked a great deal about it... He would mostly just say that was then, and I am here and this my life now. That said all my uncles and aunts all know the same stories and tales.
I was not long down a pub with a uncle, I started telling him about all my research... He stopped me and said "If you had just come to me, I could of told you we come from that". I laughed and said yes but I wanted 100% proof and documents...
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When i research the articles in the newspapers i write down all the names that come up, not just the name i was looking for, then i research that name, by doing this great things come up, i do the same thing with street names or anything rearly, so if you read these extracts below names like Joseph Wiltshire come up, and George Smith, evan Charles Bacon who i have been researching on another page comes up in the storys, the Bacons are related to the Woodwards, i have found the Bacons on Lucknow street to, read these storys to get a feel for the times, there is a public house still standing on the same place in the market area, it was a poachers pub, there was iron peggs on the window sills that the game was strung up on yeares back, it was known as the pretty windows, and then peggers, i think its rearl name was the Fox and Grapes, check out all these storys, i think there is much to learn yet, Sneinton was packed with poachers and dealers, a massive history, i never new the amount that i now know, it as opened my eyes, genealogy history is a great subject to learn real truth, and me born and bred here, it just goes to show the vallue of learning
If you click on this link below the Fox and Grapes Public House comes up, it is the only building left standing from the times of Joseph Wiltshire who lived at the back of this pub where that big building now stands, on either side of this pub were the many streets that your relatives lived on, under the windows was iron spikes for all the game animals to be strung to while the poachers went for a drink, people would buy rabbits and game like that from this place, all your relatives would of walked through these doors into that old pub, and no dout fell out sometimes when they had a few to many, everyplace now is gone mostley, this is one of the last standing buildings, it dates from the 1830s
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5418223
Wednesday 10 January 1906
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
THIS DAY'S POLICE NEWS
The five Nottingham menJoseph Wiltshire, George Smith, Edward Birch, Thomas Bickley, and Thomas Peacock , who last Saturday were summoned for poaching were discharged through lack of evidence
Thursday 16 October 1913
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
ARMED WITH THICK STICKS
Bingham Petty Sessions to-day in prosecuting Arthur Straw, of Wat-street, Colwick-street, Nottingham, and Edward Birch, of 21, Nelson street, Gedling-street, for trespassing on the Great Northern Railway on September
Thursday 24 September 1908
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
WHAT THEY DID WITH THE SUMMONSES
NOTTM. POACHERS FONDNESS FOR GOOSE FAIR.
Three Sneinton poachers, named John Golland and Thomas and Edward Birch, should have appeared at the Bingham Petty Sessions to-day to answer charges under the Poaching Prevention Act, but failed to appear
Friday 20 November 1931
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
Eighty previous convictions were shared between three Nottingham poachers who appeared at the police-court yesterday. Edward Birch (60). labourer, lodging In Sussex-street. Nottingham, against whom 39 previous convictions bad been recorded
Wednesday 01 January 1913
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
NOTTINGHAM POACHER AND THE RABBITS.
Having previously been before the magistrates on no fewer than 36 occasions, Thomas Bickley, of 24, Lees-yard, Red Lion-street, who was charged in the Nottingham Summons Court to-day
Wednesday 14 November 1906
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
POACHERS AND THE FOWLS
Thomas Bickley, of 16, Foundry-yard, Red Lion-street-, and John Hopewell, both labourers, of Nottingham, were charged with stealing 15 live tame fowls, on the 11th inst, owned Mr. J. T. Forman, of Wilford House, Wilford
Thursday 06 April 1911
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
NOTTINGHAM POACHERS HEAVILY FINED.
Thomas Bickley, labourer, 26, Lees-yard, Harry Butlin, labourer, 18, Cherry-place, and Arthur Bruce, collier, 36, Bromley-street, all of Nottingham, pleaded guilty before the Bingham Bench to-day
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continued
Monday 06 September 1915
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
GAMEKEEPERS AND POACHERS
Night Struggle in Field near Widmerpool. Three reputed. Nottingham poachers, Arthur Straw. Samuel Willmott. and John Morris, were summoned to appear at the Nottingham Shire Hall Saturday to answer a charge of night poaching at Widmerpool ...
Saturday 11 June 1910
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
POACHING AT RUDDINGTON
The man said he knew what the constable wanted, as Johnson had spoken to him about it. The man. Arthur Straw, a powerfully-built and humorous fellow, was summoned with Johnson, but he vigorously asserted that the officer was mistaken
Wednesday 04 July 1923
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
NOTTM. POACHERS PLEA.
COULD NOT GET WORK ON ACCOUNT OF AGE.
Described as an experienced poacher who never used violence, Arthur Straw, 61, Nottingham, pleaded guilty at the Shire Hall, to-day, to night poaching at Gotham. His convictions, chiefly for poaching, dated as far back as 1884. Defendant pleaded that he was obliged to poach. He could not get work on account of his age. When he asked for relief he was told to enter the workhouse. He did not wish to go to the spike, and could not starve. The chairman (Mr. F. Whyatt): This country doesn't allow people altogether to starve. It is not quite as bad as that. Defendant was fined £4. Or 14 days in default.
Thursday 09 March 1911
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire, England
POACHER AND HIS GUN
defendant came to his house and demanded the gun, remarking, my name is Arthur Straw, of 1, Pump-street, Nottingham, and if the gun is not there in a week's time I'll make you smell of Arthur Straw. He added that he would poach witness and do for him
Wednesday 02 June 1920
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
THE HOUSE ON THE HILL.
ARNOLD MAN LOSES GUN AND GAME.
Arnold men, Arthur Straw, Charles Bacon, and Charles wheat pleaded guilty at the Nottingham Shire Hall to-day to an offence under the Poaching Prevention Act. The police met the defendants on the highway at Arnold. They were in a cart, going from Calverton towards Nottingham . On searching the cart they found two guns, four hares, three partridges, and a rabbit, freshly killed Straw in asking the bench for leniency said,
i am out of work, but if you put a nice little fine on me I will try to pay it, otherwise I shall have to go to the place ontop of the hill.
Each of the defendents were fined 2 £, the guns and the game being fortfeited. Straw- I have three licenses for my gun, what use is license without a gun. The conundrum went unanswered
Monday 24 October 1910
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
CRUETY TO A DOG FOX
NOTTINGHAM MAN FINED TWENTY SHILLINGS. Arthur Straw, of 1, Pump-street, was convicted at the Nottingham Guildhall Saturday of cruelty to a dog fox in Gedling-street on Friday. W. Lucas, who prosecuted, said Straw was seen in Gedling-street. He had a dog fox
Saturday 17 July 1920
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
AN INTERESTING POINT
NOTTM. POACHERS HAUL OF RABBITS.
At the Shire Hall to-day interesting point of law was raised on Saturday when George Smith, 24, Pierrepont street : Arthur Straw, of no fixed abode; Jos. Wiltshire, 6 Gedling street; and Richard Whitchurch, Red Lion-street, all Nottingham labourers, were charged under the Poaching Prevention Act with being suspected to having been on land in pursuit of game
Saturday 10 September 1904
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
NIGHT POACHING AT GEDLING
At the Shire Hall, before Mr. A. J. Martin, Major Tennant, Mr. J. Builoct, and Mr. J. R. Anderson, labourer, named Thomas Peacock, Sneinton, was charged with night poaching
Thursday 04 July 1907
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
THIS DAYS POLICE NEWS
Poachers. Thomas Peacock and Edward Birch, labourers, Nottingham, two well-known poachers were charged with night poaching, at Holme Pierrepont
This is the John James Bacon of Lucknow street on the old Market area before the demolition, he is related to the Woodwards, you said i think that there was Woodwards who lived on Lucknow street
Thursday 28 July 1910
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
John James Bacon, hawker, of 21, Lucknow street, Southwell-road, Nottingham, was brought before the magistrates at the Petty Sessions, Bingham, this morning. He had given the name of John Upham, hawker, Mansfield, but was traced
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Just a few of the Josephs, i do not know if they are all from the Wilshers, i just try and find things, i will write one more letter to you then i will go through all the stories i have found and put everything on for you, then i will not be talking to you no more, if you have any conclusions or an end story of sorts will you write it up before i go, it will take me a while to try and find and write about the things i have found, i do not know if everything will be right, i just find things that sound about right, i do not rearly know anything about genealogy, i just get lucky somtimes becourse i put the work in, so i will write one more time to you then i will not be talking no more, like i say these are just a few of the things i have found
Friday 06 August 1897
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
Kelham Cruelty to a Pony. Lydia Wiltshire, Priory-road, Newark, hawker, was charged with having on July 22nd cruelly tortured a animal by working it whilst in an unfit state in the parish of Kelham. and Joe. Wiltshire, her brother was charged with allowing the animal to be so worked. Both defendants was charged with allowing the animal to be so worked. Both defendants pleaded not guilty. -Wm. Harbord, inspector of the R.S.P.C. A., said be was on duty near the Cattle Market, Newark, when be saw the defendant driving a chestnut pony which was very lame. He stopped it, and asked the woman how long it had been lame. She said ever since they had it, about three months. The lameness in his opinion was of old standing, and he had the pony taken out and walked gently home. He saw the male defendant, who told him the pony was foaled like it. Mr. Ed. Harry Ward, veterinary surgeon, said he examined the gelding. He found it very lame on the off foreleg from a contracted tendon, which caused the fetlock joint to knuckle over, and there was an enlargement of the coronary band. The animal was totally unfit for any kind of work.By defendant: Was not the pony in a good condition ?Mr. Ward :It was.Defendant said the pony was well cared for, and had done well The Bench fined both defendants 5s., and costs, or seven days with hard labour.
Saturday 13 May 1848
Sheffield Independent
Yorkshire
LOCAL INTELLIGENCE
On Thursday forenoon, Joseph Badger, Esq., deputy coroner, held an inquest at the Black Boy, Bailey lane, on the body of the infant son of Joseph Wiltshire, chair bottom maker, Bailey lane. It appeared that the child had been subject to fits, but, on Tuesday evening, it had appeared unwell. When its mother awoke on Wednesday morning, it was found to be in a fit, and almost immediately died. Natural death.
Thursday 02 August 1849
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
LOCAL INTELLIGENCE
Town Hall East Retford, July 28. (Before the Rev. E. H. Dawkins, C. W. Hudson, W.B. Simpson, and Fairfax Fearnley, Esqrs. ) Joseph Wilshire was summoned for riding in a cart on the turnpike road without reins dismissed, being a charge on the wrong person.
Saturday 21 October 1843
Sheffield Independent
Yorkshire
. MARRIAGES.
Rotherham On Monday, Mr Joseph Wiltshire, chair maker, to Miss Mary White
Tuesday 13 October 1908
Derbyshire Courier
Derbyshire
POLICE COURT ITEMS
At the Chesterfield County Police (second court), the presiding magistrates were Mr H Westlake and Mr Wigglesworth. Joseph Willshire was ordered to pay the costs for allowing eight horses to stray on the Mansfield road. Hillstown, on the 4inst.P.c Ginnever proved the case
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Fred Ballington had three children in the 1930s when Harriet was still married to Oliver Paddock. Only one of these children seems to have kept the Ballington name, Ernest. Whether he married or not I don't know. I didn't realise that Fred was in trouble with the police knowing what i do about the Ballington family. This is the first time I have ever seen anything about him Is there anyone else who would know anything about him?
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Fred Ballington had three children in the 1930s when Harriet was still married to Oliver Paddock. Only one of these children seems to have kept the Ballington name, Ernest. Whether he married or not I don't know. I didn't realise that Fred was in trouble with the police knowing what i do about the Ballington family. This is the first time I have ever seen anything about him Is there anyone else who would know anything about him?
Hi,
By chance was you the kind person who mailed me copies of the marriage certificates, being on ancestry?
Also I have not really researched Fred, what I can say is Harriet was closes to all her Wilsher family, so I would believe Fred proably would of mixed a fair bit with them too...
Harriet and her sisters/bothers grow up in caravans and on camp sites... I believe they ended up in Seninton becaues of the market, being street hawkers, barrel boys and market folk.
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Yes it's me. I was just looking at this website and saw mention of Wilshers, and Padocks. Fred Ballington 's name cropped up so thought i would see what came up. There are a lot of newspaper reports on the site. I have had no response from my DNA on Ancestry so thought if I joined another site something else would come up. Fred had a son called Ernest but I can find no trace of him. I thought there might have been something on Ancestry or even this website about Harriet, Oliver and Fred's children. After all, Harriet had six children at least with both of her husbands. Nice that you got back to me, thank you
Patricia.
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At a later date I want to map out all the women Wilsher who have kids...
So I could proably help trace her kids...
I have not tried looking at her yet though. This research project has become a bit of a obsession for me. I have just made it past the 100 certificates of b/m/d mark... With long term goals of hitting the 1000 certificate mark for Wilsher and connecting Romani / none Romani families.
If you need help feel free to message me on anctresy and I'll try and help.
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Sky
would you know about the Boswells of the 1860s who new the Wilshaws Yorkshire way, you know i am writing these last yeares much about Dan from Selston as in buried there and Sarah buried in Nottingham, you know the history of the Josephs more than anyone, well i found a record of a Joseph up in court from the middle 1800s with a Sarah Boswell them both fighting against other Gipsies, you know old Sarah was burried from st Marys in my place same as my own Mother, history is true but lies are true to, to learn of everything is a truth indeed, would you tell of which Joseph and which line of the Boswells did Sarah from the middle 1800s come from,
i do hope you are well, from michael x
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Hi,
Hope all is well too, Im not to bad.
Boswell/wilsher connection
On Fred wilshers marriage certificate, son of Joseph/Marie, he states Josephs surname as Boswell Wilsher...
Also on my DNA we have distance match to a Boswell from the Viney Boswell family tree Book R&TFHS,
In that same book there is a Sarah wilsher married a Noah Boswell.
The match I have from that tree is on a different branch from Sarah and Noah, so there has to be a common ancestor between Wilsher's and Boswell family. I am about 90% sure Sarah Wilsher is part of the bigger family.
Other then that I dont know much else Im afraid, I have not seen any census or marriages... I would be extremely interested in reading the news article of Joseph and a Boswell fright together.
Cheers,
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Sky
This is an extract from the report i was telling you of, i will write back later with more surrounding information
Saturday 31 August 1867
Wakefield Free Press
Yorkshire
LOCAL AND DISTRICT
A Row Among The Gipsies.At the Court House, yesterday, before J. B. Charlesworth and Percy Tow, Esqs., a man named Joseph Wilshaw and a woman named Sarah Boswell were placed in the dock charged with assaulting a woman named Mrs. Cunningham. Mr. Gill prosecuted, and Mr. Clough defended. A large number of witnesses were examined, and it appeared that on Thursday, the 22nd inst., the husband of complainant had exchanged a pony for a donkey with another man, and they went into the Grey Horse public-house at Whitwood Mere, to have some beer on the head of it. While there a quarrel took place. and the landlady, Mrs. White, put them out. On this Cunningham struck Mrs. White, and she asked if there was an Englishman that would protect her. Wilshaw then struck Cunningham, and a general row among the parties took place, the combatants being gipsies. Mrs. Cunningham came up at the time, and saw her husband being ill-treated, on which she threw herself on him to protect him, and was then assautted by the two defendants. Complainant ; produced a quantity of hair that had been pulled out of her head, and she appeared to have been fearfully used, various parts ot her body being very much marked
........................
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Sky
You said on your DNA you have a distance match to a Boswell from the Viney Boswell family tree Book R&TFHS,
In that same book there is a Sarah wilsher married a Noah Boswell.
is this below the same people in the time scale, plus in the same year and area there is also a Sarah with a Williams gal, i am sure you said you was related to the Williams from years back, its best to keep everything in mind evan if the people turn out to be of a different line of families, you always get to learn of the bigger picture
Saturday 24 May 1862
Northwich Guardian
Cheshire
Alleged Robbery by Gipsies. Priscilla Smith, Mary Ann Smith, and Sarah Boswell, travelling gipsies, were charged with stealing a purse containing 10s. from a cupboard in the house of Thomas Buckley, of Widnes, during the temporary absence of the inmates on the 17th instant. They were discharged, the evidence not being satisfactory.
Noah Boswell (husband of Sarah Boswell) was charged with obstructing police sergeant Brown in the execution his duty whilst conveying the above prisoners to the Town Hall, St. Helens, on Monday, the 19th instant. The charge being fully proved he was fined with costs,which was immediately paid.
Wednesday 18 June 1862
Preston Chronicle
Lancashire
LOCAL INTELLIGENCE
Two gipsies, named Sarah Boswell and Sophia Williams, were then charged with fortune telling on the I4th inst.-Mr. Bond, who defended the prisoners, questioned .................. defendants, according to the witnesses, they had foretold that they would be married soon to rich young men, and that especially Miss Kitchen would................
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Sky
I just wanted to show you this, you are right when you look for answers like you did for the (Nelsons-Neilsons) saying you found some down London way but the record stating they were showmen, this made you hesitate for the reason London is miles away and showmen are supposed to be of their own breed, all this may be right but you must search with an opened mind, look at the next few posts, on this record below the people are stating how they travel right from the North of Britain to the far South so you are quite right to cast your net far, nine out of ten times you may be wrong but you was right to look.
20 February 1888
Dundee Courier
Angus
Scotland
The Rival Curious Revelations of Tramp Life. Two brothers named respectively Eli Boswell and Lewis Boswell, hawkers, were brought before the Dundee Police Court Saturday charged with committing a breach of the peace, and assaulting a hawker named Nelson Boswell in the Old Cattle Market, Dundee, on Friday night. In the course of the trial some strange phases of tramp life were disclosed. The parties belong to that nomad class of hawkers, who travel the country, and live in waggons. Though bearing the same name, and following the same mode of life, the complainer and the accused said there was no relationship between them. Jealousy was the cause of the fracas. Lewis and Nelson were rivals for the affections of a fair hawker named Lily Smith, and for her sake Nelson was threatened with a good hiding. Lily appeared in the witness box, and said she had lived five or six years with Lewis, and had as good as six children by him. They were never married, but she did as good by him as any wife, but now she had left him, and was living with Nelson. She was never married to Lewis, and was as free to him to any other man. Lewis had got another wife, and he left Lily in Glasgow, and went away with the other young woman. Lily then joined her fortunes with Nelson, who with his mother and brothers had a waggon and a business of their own. they went to England, and travelled all over the country, and were as far south as London. They believed that Lewis and his brother were following after them, and so to get peace they came to Dundee about two months ago, and had been living in the Cattle Market. Friday night the other Boswells arrived at Dundee, an took up their quarters in the Cattle Market also. Lily said she knew when they coombed together there would be a fight . (Laughter.) a few threats and angry words were exchanged between the rivals when they met, whereupon old Mrs Boswell, the mother of Nelson, anxious for peace, dispatched a messenger for the police. After hearing the evidence the Bailie found Eli guilty of assault only, and fined him 10s, 6d, with the option of seven days in prison. The charge against Lewis was dismissed not proven.
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Sky
This is also to help you, now when you said the Nelsons down London way were showmen and true they most probably are and true maybe not at all the people you are researching, well, don't be put of by label's, hawker showman pedlar horse dealer means nothing as in that is truly who the people are, if people are related and known in the Gipsy community they are from the Gipsies, sometimes you say things like they are now known as hawkers but once were Gipsies, look at some of these records i found, i bet at least one of them although they are stated as being showmen well i think at least one will be of the Gipsies, i have a pal who's from the Newark way they call the Lincolnshire lot the flatlanders, my pal as still a catapult and dogs like bull lurchers and the gamest dog of all the great Patterdale, well his old people were once mostly Potters, i found them related to families like the smiths and their history is old, in Yorkshire they say pot hawkers or earthenware dealers, i found myself in the Nottinghamshire press the word potters is greatly used in the older press records, i think most people have yet to understand the true meaning of genealogy, Gipsy people mixed with others over the yeares and did lots of jobs, the Gipsies will still be Gipsies, do not ever look at a lable and think the lable defines the person, so now look at these below, maybe they are all not of the Gipsies but remember in your research trust not the lable, i hope i have helped you with this and will put more on for you soon about the records of the Wilshers i have found, remember also they are named Wiltshaw, and evan maybe Walshaw, i will show you some soon, before i finish my writings i wish i would of been of help to you
Friday 25 September 1953
Jedburgh Gazette
Roxburghshire
Scotland
For driving a van with an expired Road Fund licence on 31st March. in Woodmarket, Kelso. Ashanny Boswell. showman and general dealer. 43 Water St, Carlisle, was fined...............
Thursday 15 September 1932
Western Mail
Glamorgan
Wales
FELL UNDER VAN Skewen Victim of Attacks of Giddiness A verdict of Accidental death was returned at an inquest at Skewen on Wednesday on John Jenkins (69), of Newroad, Skewen, who was run over and fatally injured by a van owned by David Edward Boswell travelling showman.............
Saturday 21 October 1933
Falkirk Herald
Stirlingshire
Scotland
fine of £3 was imposed on Walter Boswell, showman, the Show Ground, 305 Main Street, Bellshill, for a contravention of the Road Traffic Act, committed at Stenhousemuir during the Tryst Fair............
Friday 23 October 1857
Durham Chronicle
Durham
John Boswell, showman, was killed on Friday by falling before the wheels of a waggon which he was driving across Sunderland bridge towards Southwick..............
Thursday 09 July 1936
Southern Reporter
Selkirkshire
Scotland
Thomas Boswell, a young showman, who was charged on 15th July. 1935 with obtaining board and lodging in Selkirk without paying.....................
08 August 1932
Dundee Evening Telegraph
Angus
Scotland
Mrs Robina Boswell wife of Albert Boswell, showman, was admonished for erecting dwelling quarters in the children's park at Bassaguard. St Andrews ...............
Saturday 22 October 1932
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
SHOP-DOOR STRUGGLE.
PLUCKY ILKESTON WOMAN AND INTRUDER.
ALLEGED ATTEMPT TO ROB TILL.
Described as a showman, Albert Booth, 58, of no fixed abode, was remanded in custody at Ilkeston, yesterday, a charge of attempting to steal a sum money belonging to Mrs. A.....................
i will write back soon with more help, thank you for sharing your research i have listened to all your words and appreciate your time
michael
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Sky
Alverthorpe, i know its just a name but like you found Smith Field, this is another massive one, its up that way above Sheffield, i have come to know the South Sheffield lands of the Wilshers through Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire but up that way just below Leeds if my mind sees right i found lots of connecting records, Nottingham is easy for me in the stopping placers, but Yorkshire is revealing much more now, i have also done some looking for the ones that went the Newark way
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I spoke with the DNA match, he was directly from the Boswell family and said he knew of Wilshers camping in an area, in the past.
The Sarah Wilsher who married Noah Boswell is in the same extended Viney tree too... I did attempt to trace where/If Sarah Wilsher Fitted in to the larger Wilsher tree, but had no luck.
That news article is really interesting, of Sarah and Joseph, also the Sarah and Noah one. There is defo a connection between the two families, Id say late 1700s to early 1800s.
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Sky
Whos Viney Boswell, i heared of the famouse Lawrence and i think Edward but whos Viney, i know there are these lines that have been talked about, i wander where it all started, and who started the line talk, if you go back in time i bet there was no such thing as a line
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Not sure who Viney is, I only purchase the book because it stated Wilsher family in the book list...
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not to worry i will write back regarding what information i have found about the Wilshers soon,
i do not intend to keep writing for to much longer, i must finish the writings of the WW1 for sure but i will put all the records on here that i have found that may help you, remember use the information contained in the records as guiding clues like Alverthorpe, you find lots of good information yourself and have done a good job in researching, i read through all your words, keep up the good work, well done
michael x
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Sky
I found a few more reports about a Noah and a Sarah, i try to read many records that each hold different clues then take all the clues as a whole,you never told of the date that Sarah Wilsher was with Noah Boswell in the Viney book, does it match these records, if not keep in mind everything, the bigger picture must always be the main point of focus
Saturday 28 May 1864
Cheshire Observer
Cheshire
CHESTER CITY POLICE COURT
Three gipsies, whose appearance sufficiently proclaimed the race to which they belonged, were brought up on suspicion of having unlawful possession of some silver spoons,. Their names were John Gray, Noah Boswell, and Sarah Boswell. The prisoners it appeared had attempted to pawn the spoons with Mr. Burton, but he having a suspicion of their honesty, referred them to the police office. The spoons, it seemed, had all been marked, but the mark on one had been obliterated. Gray with a good deal of vehemence, said the magistrates need not trouble themselves to much about a few spoons, for he had a hundred pawn -tickets in his purse. Boswell then offered the following explanation of the circumstance's
..At a Rate of 4s. 6d. an ounce. He pawned them again at Mackesfield May Fair and after taking them out was going to pawn them again at Bartons. He could bring the woman he bought them of as a witness.The case was accordingly adjourned for the pro- duction of this witness. A squabble their arose about the custody of the spoons. Mr. Hill said he would keep them until the case was reheard. Gray, however, raised a violent protest against this proceeding, declaring in a loud tone that he would not leave his property. His companions by no means sympathised in his feelings, and showed their disapprobation unmistakable, that a disturbance seemed on the point of breaking out before the eyes of their worships. Eventually he was persuaded to acquiesce in the remand, and the parties left the court.
Wednesday 01 June 1864
Chester Courant
Cheshire
John Gray, Noah Boswell, and Sarah Boswell, three gipsies, were brought up for being in possession of property supposed to have been stolen. It seems that one of the male prisoners had gone to Mr Burton's the day before, and offered some silver spoons in pledge, but the pawnbroker seeing different crests upon the spoons and that some had been erased, stopped them and sent for the police Gray stated that he bought the spoons of a woman who had them in pawn in Liverpool, some months back, and that he had since pawned them in Mackesfield; be gave 4s. 6d. an ounce for them. The woman here corroborated his statement, and said she wanted him to buy a horse instead. The Bench decided to retain the spoons until the woman produced the person of whom they were bought, and to endeavour to find the proper owner. The gipsies agreed to this and left the court, dragging with them the one who had paid for the spoons, and who would not leave them until assured by his companions that they would see he should not lose them.
Wednesday 01 June 1864
Chester Courant
Cheshire
UNFORTUNATE GIPSIES AGAIN.Two of the gipsies, man and wife, came up to make an effort to regain the spoons in pounded on the previous day. One stated that he was in the habit of investing his money in silver plate, and carrying it about with him from fair to fair, pawning it when be wanted money. In proof of this he produced a silver butter boat and spoons from one pocket, and about a hundred pawn tickets from another. Mr Hill said that Mr Brown, of the Heraldic Office, Bold-square, had the spoons to see by the crests to whom they belonged, and he wished to advertise them in the Hue and Cry. The Bench recommended a call by the asserted owners about the July fair, as they left, the woman satirically observing to her companion, Don't cry ; it wont ruin you if you lose them.
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Sky
I just wanted to show you some records that may help you in the future, i have tryed to find records north of Sheffield....Whitwood-mere thornes castleford Wakefield Alverthorpe Flanshaw these places are close to each other and more places, this is just an outline, i do not know nothing really of who is who on the internet on that web site called the Romany i read this record stating Edward was an Hawker...Edward Wilshire Selina, Bc 1856 Roastone, Alverthorpe Thornes, Yorkshire, so i have just wrote down a few of the records in mostly extracts for you, from reading story's up of accounts of those times i think there was a pottery manufactures near by and this is what made this area desirable to people who then stayed and settled round this place, if you read into some of the records i am sure some lived in houses or used houses at certain times, the Adams i saw on a record camping in the same place as the Wilshers, i think you or Sue found that, they are pot hawkers from a long time i think they have the Gipsy in them, the Smiths and Winters are connected to the Wilshers and they to seem to be around those areas, these records are by no means a statement of truth i just found them and think on them, use the names and dates of the story's to form a bigger picture and combine everything with the census reports to learn what truth you may derive from such accounts, you may find that a Winter or a Wilshaw was just a local man and only the name gave a wrong clue, well this is good research, well worth finding out, i will not be writing to you much after this, maybe once or twice but maybe never, i will post on your Nelson page for you but this may be the last time i address you, if you want to ask me anything you can, anything in the world i am not troubled by nothing and was born for sure unchained and not a thing may shackle me, i will die free as well, anyway look through these next few posts, i will of course finally write up all the Wilsher records and just put them on here but will not write after that, i was going to do a massive research on the Woman doing the fortunetelling, i have hundreds of records i am sure they can be traced back through time in the ways families fortunetold, there was many ways and like a spiders web they may connect to each other like an old secret map, but i will not be able time wise to achieve the task, i will finish the WW1 stories though, well at least take them so far and another writer will one day finish what i started for i will not know enough to be able to do justice for all the Dead, anyway read these next not as truth and great value in the sence they are groundbreaking, no just look with your eyes, the bigger picture is what i think a persons aim must be, i have often read of or seen paintings of Gipsies and the painter or writer focuses in on a scene, everyone wants to see and read of such rich things, i look and read in the shadows for there you will see the unseen child pairing out from beneath a wagon, she is holding onto the spokes of a mighty wheel, everything is happening around the glistening warm camp fire, drinking singing getting along, but i see the child and i wonder, what do you think child, in the shadows you look, then i am looking through their eyes, this is how i research and more, and true, why i research, but i do want to share everything i find so everyone else with see through the eyes, that are unpainted
Saturday 07 September 1872
Wakefield Free Press
Yorkshire
Smith, a gipsy, and a pot hawker, living at Beck Bottom, Alverthorpe, was charged with being the owner of a cart and not having his name ..............
Saturday 07 October 1876
Wakefield and West Riding Herald
Yorkshire
ALVERTHORPE. The Coroner, T. Taylor. Esq., on Saturday last held an investigation. Into the circumstances attending the death of Mr George Fairness. Emma Fairness, it would seem that on Friday morning deceased arose about eight o'clock ... but had nothing to eat, simply supping two cups of tea. He then asked his wife for a piece of rope, stating that he wished to raise some
.when they had gone through two fields deceased crept through a gap in the hedge. and walked round a shed in the field. Edward Wiltshire, pot hawker gave similar evidence, and the jury returned a verdict to the effect that deceased ........
Saturday 17 November 1877
Wakefield and West Riding Herald
Yorkshire
WAKEFIELD POLICE INTELLIGENCE
Thoms. Adams. pot hawker, Wellington street. Whitwood Mere, charged with having been drunk and disorderly on the highway, at ... lived in a house
Saturday 14 September 1878
Wakefield Free Press
Yorkshire
WAKEFIELD POLICE COURTS
Wm. Winter, who did not appear, was charged with drunkenness at Alverthorpe, where he temporarily lives as a gipsy. On the 30th ult. Police constable Dooley found him squaring about in the village, and his friends had the greatest difficulty in getting him within doors Ordered to pay 12s. 6d., or seven days.
Saturday 17 May 1879
Wakefield Express
Yorkshire
Joseph Wiltshire, pot hawker, Alverthorpe, who was represented by his wife, was charged with allowing two horsed to stray on the highroad at that place on the 7th instantAbout two o'clock on the morning in question Police-constable Orate found the horses straying on the road. Mrs.Wiltshire, who said the horses got out of the stable accidentally, had to pay the expense's..
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Saturday 01 May 1880
Dewsbury Reporter
Yorkshire
THORNHILL. At the Petty Sessions, Monday, before W. Blakeley, Esq., and other justices. Edward Wilshaw, pedlar, was charged with hawking without a license. Police constable Mitchell found prisoner hawking baskets on Saturday ..........
Saturday 18 February 1882
Wakefield Free Press
Yorkshire
BOROUGH COURT. Before Alderman MILTRORP, (Mayor), and Mr. W. H. GILL
upwards of 70 cases were brought before the court this (Friday) morning, in which the defendants were charged with having to take out a license for the dogs they kept
co-operattie storekeeper; surgeon pallier colliery deputy travelling actor Mayor of Pontefract gamekeeper magic lantern proprietor verger at Woodlesford Church , publican artist gardener and seedsman, straw stealer, school-mistress, a reverend Joseph Wiltshire, hawker, Alverthorpe were ordered to pay the costs 10s. in each. A charge against William Turner, labourer, of New Scarborough, was dismissed on the ground that the dog belonged to his daughter. The hearing of the above cases occupies' considerable time, and as will be seen from the list of the defaulters they included all class of men.
Saturday 01 September 1883
Wakefield Free Press
Yorkshire
MISCELLANEOUS OFFENCES. At the West Riding Court to-day, before Mr. Percy 'Few, and Mr. W. H: Lee, Jane Wiltshire, married woman, Alverthorpe, was fined 9s. 6d including costs, for drunkenness at Oulton.
Saturday 03 November 1883
Wakefield and West Riding Herald
Yorkshire
LOCAL NOTES
..Jane Wiltshire. aged 70. a hawker, of Alverthorpe. completes the quartette, she having receivesd some injuries to her right side by falling downstairs
.
Saturday 03 November 1883
Wakefield Free Press
Yorkshire
LOCAL & DISTRICT
Jane Wiltshire, 70, hawker, Alverthorpe, injured ribs and leg
Saturday 24 May 1884
Yorkshire Gazette
Yorkshire
DISTRICT NEWS
.... Kirkby, near Pontefract, was charged with stealing a copper handbell, value 7s. 6d., the property of William Wiltshire, licensed hawker, of Alverthorpe, on the 13th inst., under the following peculiar circumstances : On the above night prosecutor had his ...............
Saturday 31 May 1884
Leeds Times
Yorkshire
LOCAL & DISTRICT
Two married women from Flanshaw, Alverthorpe, named Betsy Bean and Elizabeth Orange, were summoned at Wakefield yesterday, charged with an assault on Eliza Wiltshire, a neighbour. The latter was challenged out, and, on making her appearance, defendants fastened their hands in her hair, drew a quantity of that adornment away, and had to be dragged off by a man. Mrs. Bean and her friend had 10s. each to pay.
Saturday 07 November 1885
Wakefield Free Press
Yorkshire
the following persons were fined for drunkenness : William Wiltshire, pot-hawker, Flanshaw, and John Mellor, miner, Bothwell, 15s each ; and Jane Wiltshire of Flanshaw, and George Nuttell, labourer, Bothwell, 12s 6d each. Mary Ann Freer ...
Saturday 14 November 1885
Wakefield Free Press
Yorkshire
Joseph Wiltshire, pot hawker, Alverthorpe, for obstructing the highway at Crigelestene, was Fined..........
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Joseph is wrote as a Wiltshaw in this record on the link below
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Wakefield/Wakefield87Dry
go on to this great web site to learn and see of near places and way of life as i talk of
https://outwoodcommunityvideo.co.uk/site-map.html
zoom in to these photos of how a hawkers wagon could be in older times
https://outwoodcommunityvideo.co.uk/wrenthorpe-remembered-5/hawker-outside-the-malt.html
https://outwoodcommunityvideo.co.uk/robin-hood-remembered/r1_9.html
Saturday 26 February 1887
Barnsley Chronicle, etc
Yorkshire
WEST RIDING COURT HOUSE
A Negligent Driver Gawber-road. Wm. Walshaw, of Alverthorpe, hawker, old man, was charged with leaving horse and dray on the highway at Gawber-road. on the 9th inst.P.C. Raven proved that he found the dray on the road.Fined 6s. and costs, or 14 days.
Saturday 26 March 1887
Wakefield and West Riding Herald
Yorkshire
WEST RIDING COURT
.Fred Smith, pot hawker, Alverthorpe, was charged with breaking some
...
Saturday 21 December 1895
Wakefield and West Riding Herald
Yorkshire
WEST RIDING COURT.
Joseph Wiltshire, hawker. Alverthorpe, and kate Noon, rag picker, of the same place, were charged
Saturday 16 November 1901
Wakefield and West Riding Herald
Yorkshire
WEST RIDING COURT.
Have the child vaccinated .James Winter. hawker, described as of Alverthorpe, was ordered to have his child. Adingale. who was born on August 4th. 1899.vaccinated within 14 days and pay the costs
.
Thursday 16 August 1928
Yorkshire Evening Post
Yorkshire
Later the charm was opened and found to be a piece of coal. Mr. Pell (defending) said his client admitted having the money, which she intended to return. She had a good character, and was the mother of 6 children.
Thursday 16 August 1928
Hull Daily Mail
Yorkshire
PEDLAR'S FRAUD
... in which Selina Wilshaw, pedlar, of Salter's Yard, Wakefield, was charged with obtaining the sum of £8 2s by false pretences from Clara Grant, married woman, of Home-street, Scunthorpe. Albert Pell, of Wakefield, defended, and accused pleaded Guilty.............
Friday 17 August 1928
Leeds Mercury
Yorkshire
PIECE OF COAL AS CHARM. WAKEFIELD GIPSY TELLS THE TALE. (From Our Own Correspondent.) SCUNTHORPE, Thursday. How a piece of coal was given as a charm was related at the Police Court here to-day, when Selina Wilshaw, of Salters Yard, Wakefield, a gipsy hawker
.. ...
Friday 17 August 1928
Sheffield Independent
Yorkshire
LUMP OF COAL
AS A CHARM.
WITCHCRAFT FRAUD ON
HELPLESS CRIPPLE.
Spell-binding by means of a charm wrapped in handkerchief, which proved afterwards to be a mere lump coal, was a feature of remarkable story told to the Scunthorpe magistrates yesterday, when Selina Wilshaw, of Salter's yard, Wakefield, was charged with stealing the sum of £8. 2s. by false pretences. Accused, who pleaded guilty, was defended by Mr. Albert Pell, Wakefield. Mrs. Clara Grant ....
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Sky
I found more Boswells, in records they say they share the same d.n.a from a while back, i do not know how it all works though, i am not much of nothing in the d.n.a world for i am only bits of this, and bits of that, i told the truth to everyone right from the first time i came on the internet, if you ever ask Sue from the Romany Genes web site She will back me up on that, i never tryed to be what i am not, my own Father was from the wild lands of Connaught way in the west of old Ireland, a baron land of much hardship, his own Mother came from the U.S.A for there she was born after her own people escaped the mass slaughter in Ireland at the times of the great famine, way back the 1800s, her family name was Kelly, my dad was born when Ireland was still under British rule before the 1920s, he left and came to England and worked the farms, eventually he met my Mother and then as time went along i came abouts, he was old when he had me, what i meen is everything i talk about on here is through my Mother and as i have told you in this thread we talk on that line, as the line talk goes is broken to, but all these writers of today and the past have it wrong, we was strong with it, i will be the last though, not to worry it as to end somewhere, so you see i will never be one of them who claim they are Indian, sure there not evan a spoonful themselves, but that's just the way the world leads them now like lost sheep, anyway, my d.n.a says i have long cousins from America who are from my Fathers people, but the strangest thing records are coming back from America saying i have Cousins from my Mothers side, and them named Boswell and Young, where did they come from, there are more to but people born and bred Boswell and young from immigrants from these lands back several generations share d.n.a with me, must be a common ancester of sorts, i seen there family lines and its Palmer's Stanley's Scamp and Lee Jefferey's and Wharton, evan a direct Lee to, shares old d.n.a with me, and the strangest thing to some from the south of England come up connected, i must share ancestors way back, i want to do a test that justs shows a persons Mothers ancestry, my head is spinny from all the Irish connections of my dad, click click click, that's all you do when you are looking through all the names, i must be related to half of Ireland, no wonder i like a drink, but i have to separate them for it does your head in for sure click click click, ho and one of the Boswells from the U.S.A as a Noah in her family but buried over there, you said you spoke to a Noah or someone connected to him, it must be a Boswell name, and a real old connection or weak connection or a bit of a bit shared bit is a Boswell American connected to Alma, i think that's the Blackpool ones, somehow somewhere there are common ancestors from the older times, it could be the Smiths, i have lots more connections i found to, the ones from down the South like Beaney Scamp Lee and such i just do not understand, i wonder if they got my sample mixed up, for how can anyone my Mother was connected to be connected to the South, one of the Boswell gals from America said on her profile that shes of the Edward line, i think he was from the Devon way but i am not sure now, i wonder how all those people get on who have the big Gipsy ancestry from both sides, i,v only a bit they must have thousands of clicking todo, ho and the Allens share the same d.n.a or a bit anyway, and i learned that cousins will be related but lots of times the d.n.a only shows up with one, its a strange thing that d.n.a, some people use it to show off and say there Indian and then more or less call others for not being like them, now d.n.a shows the real connections is not India but between the family's of how Gipsies are all related by common ancestors, sure the big ones only have a spoon full of Indian d.n.a anyway and truthfully its only your last several generations that makes you who you are, one of them wrote to me once and told me how great they was for they had the Indian spoonfull and i had not so i was a gorja bastard, that's the mail i have still got, but like my Mother always told me, she said when they call you a bastard tell them yes and a born and bred one to, for i was born a bastard you see, born and bred, they did in the end get married when i was a few years old, so there you go, tell me Sky about a test that just does my Mothers line, well i hope you are well and i think you have done really well with your fine researching, thank you for all the times i have learned from your times of researching out far information that i know you have payed out lots of money for
michael
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Hope all is well, now lockdown is starting to be lifted...
DNA is a good tool in aiding research, I have seen a lot of arguments and snobbery in some groups though. I do not pay it much thought, I have no Indian dna, it does not bother me.
The Wilshers have travelled counties of the UK for at least 250 years, mixing with all manner of groups of people.
Your news report research has helped me a great deal, some of them have really brought my tree to life.
Where did you do your dna?
If your on ancestry, my other of adding you to my private family tree still stands, I would think youd find the Tree interesting.
Cheers,
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sound Sky
It was on Ancestry, i will contact you one day, thanks for the invite........ nice one
michael
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Sky
This is what it says on Ancestry as in the way to understand your results, but i do not understand them at all, Ancestry says my d.n.a in parts are shared by others, i keep getting far matches to down the South and America, how can this be true, i know you can have an ancester and they will have thousands of ancesters but all mine are around the three cousin broken mark, is that about the middle of the 1800s, am i looking at it wrong, i used to write to a Stanley yeares back in America and he told me it was the 1800s they went over so if i shared a common ancester then it would have to be way back, it says below we are of the broken three mark me and you, what does it meen, and why America and the South, what happened to the North, i dont evan know nothing of nothing, not well if i,v done it wrong, it dosent matter just put me right would you, this below is what it says on Ancestry
"Evaluating DNA Evidence
DNA evidence may support or contradict other forms of evidence, and may point to different sources of evidence. Other possible relationships between people should also be considered."
"When two people have a DNA match, it means they inherited DNA from one or more recent common ancestors."
This is our match, well i only give the one Ancestry think is the most likley, then read all the rest they send me, it looks mostley the same as yours, whats going on, have you a clue for i havent
Sky you and me below estimated by Ancestry after the test, what it meens i havent a clue, but at least we match, thats a good thing for sure
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
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then Ancestry sent me this information saying i share d.n.a in the broken three mark with lots of people from the Gipsy community, but how, how can this be true, i put on some of the people on for you to read who are related to the person who i match with to prove they are of the Gipsies, but how do i come in to it, just tell me if i am doing it wrong i do not feel shame, i am strong with the shame, but try and think why they match like you match to me but mostley they are from the South or America
match named (beaney) ROMNEY MARSH Kent
......relatives of match.......Mark Ripley 1738 Samuel Beaney 1809 Henry Beney 1694 Emmaneul Hilton 1802 Philadephia Jones 1812 Mary Miley 1763 Menty Scamp /Mathews 1884 Oliver Scamp
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
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match named (Gardiner)
.relatives of match......Leonard Gardiner 1867 Thomas Gardiner 1820 Mary Borman 1668 Elizabeth Boswell 1875 Sampson Scamp 1774 Mary Ann Maden 1856 Abel Lee 1751
..
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Half 3rd cousin
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Clarke ..........female
..relatives of match......Margery Bailie 1578 Flora Ripley/Scamp 1890 John Scamp1693 Henry Woodward 1606 Joyce Wootton 1604 Anthony Lee 1679 Elsabesth Lee 1595 Orsin Lee 1728 Abel Lee 1759
3rd cousin 1x removed
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match named (Henderson) ........female
relatives of match.........Rose Kemp (Scamp) Ann Lock 1735 Elisabeth Smith 1694 Thomas Wells 1650 Abel Lee1751 Thomas Woodward 1682
..
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No name ........male
. relatives of match.........Levi Bowell 1881 Eliza Dighton 1897
4th cousin
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No name New Zealand ...........male
relatives of match.....Flora Scamp Gilderoy Scamp William Addley
.
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match named (Scamp) .........female Kent
3rd cousin 1x removed
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match named (Camp) .............male
.relatives of match.........Leonard Small Viola Stanley William Fletcher Camp
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match named (Stanley).......... male
3rd cousin
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match named(Smith) ..........female.. relatives of match....Edward Charlotte Drewcilla Smith Phoebe Smith1885
3rd cousin 1x removed
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No name America
.relatives of match Worden Bailey Wharton
3rd cousin 1x removed
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match named (Cooper) .......male America
.relatives of match Cooper Boswell
3rd cousin 1x removed
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match named (Lee) .....female wales
.. relatives of match hearnes prices lee
3rd cousin 1x removed
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match named (Cooper) Canada
3rd cousin 1x removed
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Kent .....male
..relative of match....Matilda Ayers 1876 Henry Ayres John Carey 1770 Cornelius Loveridge 1827 Olive James 1811 William Bacon 1743
.
3rd cousin 1x removed
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match named (Young) male
.. relatives of match....Ambrose Smith 1760 Susan Shuri Shurensi Chilcock 1823 Noah Young 1844 Ruth Boss 1788 Richard W Crowther 1828 and many more
.
4th cousin
3rd cousin 2x removed
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match named (Allan)
female
3rd cousin
2nd cousin 2x removed
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Match named (Prestwich)....... female I think maybe they are American
relatives of match Thomas Boswell 1791 William Wood 1748 Martha Elizabeth Wilson 1762 Violetta virtue Smith 1749 Dambritty Temerance Lovell 1797 Major Lovell 1748 direct ancestor of Prestwich Moses DraperJulia Fuller 1818 Elizabeth Betsy Cliford (Price) Gypbert Bruggenbosch 1773 Eli Shields Lee 1868 Eunice Esther Una Loveridge 1821Robert Prestwich 1658 Alselm Colen 1823
..
3rd cousin
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match named (Wharton)
a female
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match named (Gray)
female
.relatives of match.....unbelievable to me Nelly Smith married Ambrose Bacon who had a child Isaiah Bacon who married Voilet Smith the daughter of Nipolian Gray and Sarah Sally Smith..this must be the Bacons I was writing about on this thread from Selston 1800s
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
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match named (Holmes)
female
1st cousin 1x removed
Half 1st cousin
2nd great-grandparent
2nd great-grandchild
match named (Harrison-Small)....... female America..
Small Gipsy King
3rd cousin 1x removed
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match named (Boswell)...... female America
..relatives of match.....Phyllis Blewitt 1760 Uriah Wharton 1817 Edward Boswell 1776 Alcana Smith 1833 Harry (Boots) Cooper1898 Fontella Lee 1902 Mary Unsworth 1828 Elizabeth Arnold 1742 Delarany Lovell 1847 Molyneux ( Nixy ) Lovell 1813
.
4th cousin
3rd cousin 2x removed
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match named (Young)........ female America
relatives of match...Edward Lock Wales 1850 married Fanny Wilshire Ebon Lock in America
3rd cousin
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match .......female related to (Lock)
.relatives of match...Ebenezer (Eban Edward) Lock from America
.Zacharia 1827 Wales
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match ..............Male America related to (Lock)
relatives of match....Eban Lloyd Lock 1894
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match named (Pearce) .........male
America
relatives of match.......issac Heron 1836 Edward Boswell 1776 Tyso Boswell 1778 Henry Cooper 1760 Morella Draper 1791 Magnolia Palmer 1875 Sophia Chilcott 1780 and many more Stanley Jefereys Wells Smith Lee Harrison Granite Ayres Hearn Hearne
.
3rd cousin 1x removed
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match named (Boswell).......... female America
relatives of match....Phillis Lee 1778 Siberina Sabrina Sybarina Hearne Herren1761Robert Boswell 1735 Edward Boswell (Gypsy leader) 1680 John, black Jack, Boswell 1730 John Bromwick ( Black Jack)Boswell 1699 Henry Cooper 1741John Wharton 1770 and many many more Thomas Hearne Herren Harmer 1740and more Louisa Young 1853 Mary Smith 1775
..Ruth Small 1787 and many more
.
3rd cousin 1x removed
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match named (Young)........... America
relatives of match......William H Young Daisy Williams
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match named (Abelel) (Lucas) (Stanley)
3rd cousin
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match (Stanley tree)........... female America
3rd cousin
2nd cousin 2x removed
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No name
.America....relatives of match..... Missouri Wharton Boswell 1854 Elias (Glias) Boswell 1843
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
match to a (Stanley tree)............ female America
. relatives of match...Edward (Ned) Boswell 1776 Mary Ann Boswell 1757Robert Boswell 1735 Samual Cooper 1709Robert Palmer 1743 James Wells 1797 John Stanley 1744 and many more
..
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
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match named (Baily)............ female
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
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match named (Bunce)........ female
.. relatives of match....John Jones 1803 Alma Boswell 1855 Tyso Boswell 1788 Sarha Draper 1822
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
Match no name
. related to match
.George Smith 1859 Jane Smith 1727 Hope Sheriff 1855 Ephriam Clayton/Booth 1841Thomas Boyling 1710 Phylis Blewitt 1760 George Ball 1759 Margraretta Draper 1637 Lydia WildGoose 1827 Ann Fisher 1704 George Boyling 1794 Cornelius/Parcenas Blewitt
plus many more
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
match named (Bunce)........... male........relatives of match..... Daniel Bunce 1879 Robert Bunce 1677 Sophia Heron 1761 John Trent 1765 Alma Boswell 1855
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
Match named (Smith) female
.related to match
.Abraham Smith 1680 Absalom Smith 1768 LeviSmith 1810 Divers Smith 1856 Ambrose Hammi Turtle Smith 1790
..
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
match named (Smith).......... female
.relatives of match.... Price Smith Wilson Burnside Butler Boswell Elliott leach Morris Gray
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
Match name (Gramp) Shared Communities with me the Midlands
they have a bit of that Northern & Western India
Iran/Persia d.n.a also connects to Wharton and Allan so maybe of the Gipsies as Allans and Whartons have that d.n.a like them
3rd cousin
2nd cousin 2x removed
Half 2nd cousin 1x removed
Half 1st cousin 3x removed
match named (Lee)........... female America
relative of match......Sarah Heron Boss 1805 Cuthbert Boswell1698 William Heron 1691Mary Sarah Young 1773 Shuransa aka Susan or Susanna Smith 1801 Rebbeca Miller John Bud (Jack) Gray 1845 and many more
.
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
Match named (Biggerstaff) female
related to match
Eliza Boss 1786 Anselo Boswell 1786 Fransic Heaps 1790 Edward Sheriff 1779 Emily Smith 1899 Emma Holmes 1863 Phylis Holland 1876
..
4th cousin
3rd cousin 2x removed
Half 3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 2nd cousin 3x removed
Match named (Savage) male
.related to match Sarah Boswell 1780 Delilah Heaps 1853Matilda Holland 1844 Alfred Sheriff 1894 Woodfine Smith 1765 Sarah Taylor 1729 Harry Savage 1916
4th cousin
3rd cousin 2x removed
Half 3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 2nd cousin 3x removed
match named (Prestwich)
male
America
related to match Unity Mary Boswell 1842 Ann Baxendale 1734 Benoni Campbell 1800 Charles Anslo Colan 1868 Julie Ann Draper 1859 Eli Shields Lee 1868 Sarah Smith 1775 Michael Whitmore 1756 Pardon Arnold Wood 1812 Thomas Wilde 1715 Martha Helen Wolfe 1838 Mary Simister 1669 Robert Prestwich 1658
3rd cousin
2nd cousin 2x removed
Half 2nd cousin 1x removed
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Match female
..related to match
.Mary Ann Allen 1844 Lydia Jones 1805 Maria Knight 1845 Latitia Smith 1760 Edward Willshaw 1760 Joseph Wilshaw 1844 Joseph Wilsher 1865 Emanuel Woodward 1846 Roland Wilsher
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
No name but stated as being managed by a person named Hearne
Pricscilla Webb William Brazil William Clarke
3rd cousin
2nd cousin 2x removed
Half 2nd cousin 1x removed
Half 1st cousin 3x removed
Match named (Nowel)
..Related to match
.Drummoned Ireland 1789 Drummoned Durham 1822 Hartley male Scotland Falkirk 1914. my ggrandmother stated as being an Hartley from Scotland on the the female side, i do not know why i match to the Nowel as in share a little d.n.a with them, as i see it they get their d.n.a from their ancestors, so if my ancestors share d.n.a with their ancestors then it may show up on the match i have with them... well i think that's how it all works, so it dosent meen i am a Nowel just because i match in a small way to them, same as i am not a Boswell just because i match in a small way to a Boswell, it does not evan meen i can link with the Hartley related to the match, d.n.a just shows you the bigger picture
3rd cousin
2nd cousin 2x removed
Half 2nd cousin 1x removed
Half 1st cousin 3x removed
Match named (Owen) female..sheffield
related to match's Joseph Owen 1770 Joseph Allen 1718 Lydia Jones 1812 James Knight 1816 Letitia Smith1760 Catherine Thorpe 1771 William Varey 1770 Joseph Wilshire 1864 William Willshaw 1811 Thomas Woodward 1810 Mary Williams 1815 Edward Wiltshire 1760
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
look Sky i match to these Owens from Sheffield who are matched to yours and mine... me and you match so that proves we match in the bigger picture...we are lucky that way for on Ancestry it says sometimes evan though you are related through d.n.a relatives may not share the data sometimes evan though they are related...its a learning curve this ancestry genealogy but we match in the data so that will always prove the link, i am very proud of all our Ancestor's well done in your research i am proud of you to for your fine efforts and kind help.
michael
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match named (Bunce)........ female
.. relatives of match....John Jones 1803 Alma Boswell 1855 Tyso Boswell 1788 Sarha Draper 1822
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
Match no name
. related to match
.George Smith 1859 Jane Smith 1727 Hope Sheriff 1855 Ephriam Clayton/Booth 1841 Thomas Boyling 1710 Phylis Blewitt 1760 George Ball 1759 Margraretta Draper 1637 Lydia WildGoose 1827 Ann Fisher 1704 George Boyling 1794 Cornelius/Parcenas Blewitt
plus many more
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
match named (Bunce)........... male........relatives of match..... Daniel Bunce 1879 Robert Bunce 1677 Sophia Heron 1761 John Trent 1765 Alma Boswell 1855
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
Match named (Smith) female
.related to match
.Abraham Smith 1680 Absalom Smith 1768 LeviSmith 1810 Divers Smith 1856 Ambrose Hammi Turtle Smith 1790
..
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
match named (Smith).......... female
.relatives of match.... Price Smith Wilson Burnside Butler Boswell Elliott leach Morris Gray
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
Match name (Gramp) Shared Communities with me the Midlands
they have a bit of that Northern & Western India
Iran/Persia d.n.a also connects to Wharton and Allan so maybe of the Gipsies as Allans and Whartons have that d.n.a like them
3rd cousin
2nd cousin 2x removed
Half 2nd cousin 1x removed
Half 1st cousin 3x removed
match named (Lee)........... female America
relative of match......Sarah Heron Boss 1805 Cuthbert Boswell1698 William Heron 1691Mary Sarah Young 1773 Shuransa aka Susan or Susanna Smith 1801 Rebbeca Miller John Bud (Jack) Gray 1845 and many more
.
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
Match named (Biggerstaff) female
related to match
Eliza Boss 1786 Anselo Boswell 1786 Fransic Heaps 1790 Edward Sheriff 1779 Emily Smith 1899 Emma Holmes 1863 Phylis Holland 1876
..
4th cousin
3rd cousin 2x removed
Half 3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 2nd cousin 3x removed
Match named (Savage) male
.related to match Sarah Boswell 1780 Delilah Heaps 1853 Matilda Holland 1844 Alfred Sheriff 1894 Woodfine Smith 1765 Sarah Taylor 1729 Harry Savage 1916
4th cousin
3rd cousin 2x removed
Half 3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 2nd cousin 3x removed
match named (Prestwich)
male
America
related to match Unity Mary Boswell 1842 Ann Baxendale 1734 Benoni Campbell 1800 Charles Anslo Colan 1868 Julie Ann Draper 1859 Eli Shields Lee 1868 Sarah Smith 1775 Michael Whitmore 1756 Pardon Arnold Wood 1812 Thomas Wilde 1715 Martha Helen Wolfe 1838 Mary Simister 1669 Robert Prestwich 1658
3rd cousin
2nd cousin 2x removed
Half 2nd cousin 1x removed
Half 1st cousin 3x removed
Match female
..related to match
.Mary Ann Allen 1844 Lydia Jones 1805 Maria Knight 1845 Latitia Smith 1760 Edward Willshaw 1760 Joseph Wilshaw 1844 Joseph Wilsher 1865 Emanuel Woodward 1846 Roland Wilsher
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
No name but stated as being managed by a person named Hearne
Pricscilla Webb William Brazil William Clarke
3rd cousin
2nd cousin 2x removed
Half 2nd cousin 1x removed
Half 1st cousin 3x removed
Match named (Nowel)
..Related to match
.Drummoned Ireland 1789 Drummoned Durham 1822 Hartley male Scotland Falkirk 1914. my ggrandmother stated as being an Hartley from Scotland on the the female side, i do not know why i match to the Nowel as in share a little d.n.a with them, as i see it they get their d.n.a from their ancestors, so if my ancestors share d.n.a with their ancestors then it may show up on the match i have with them... well i think that's how it all works, so it dosent meen i am a Nowel just because i match in a small way to them, same as i am not a Boswell just because i match in a small way to a Boswell, it does not evan meen i can link with the Hartley related to the match, d.n.a just shows you the bigger picture
3rd cousin
2nd cousin 2x removed
Half 2nd cousin 1x removed
Half 1st cousin 3x removed
Match named (Owen) female..sheffield
related to match's Joseph Owen 1770 Joseph Allen 1718 Lydia Jones 1812 James Knight 1816 Letitia Smith1760 Catherine Thorpe 1771 William Varey 1770 Joseph Wilshire 1864 William Willshaw 1811 Thomas Woodward 1810 Mary Williams 1815 Edward Wiltshire 1760
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
look Sky i match to these Owens from Sheffield who are matched to yours and mine... me and you match so that proves we match in the bigger picture...we are lucky that way for on Ancestry it says sometimes evan though you are related through d.n.a relatives may not share the data sometimes evan though they are related...its a learning curve this ancestry genealogy but we match in the data so that will always prove the link, i am very proud of all our Ancestor's well done in your research i am proud of you to for your fine efforts and kind help.
michael
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Hello Michael
I have read and found interesting many of your posts over the last few years.
I have just read through the Wilsher, Wilshire thread.
Looking at your dna matches it appears that we have a link through a female Smith
related to Abraham 1680, Absalom Smith 1768 LeviSmith 1810 Divers Smith 1856 Ambrose Hammi Turtle Smith 1790.....
I have not done a dna. My Smiths are mainly Notts., Leics, and Derbys. My Grandmother, Beatrice was born in Whitwick, Leics in 1880; and is in the 1881 census at Bulwell Forest travelling with her Grandfather, Levi 1810-1883.
Please keep posting
All the best
David
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Hi David
Just to say helo and I do hope you are well and all your family keeping fine, I think the d.n.a is good, but I think most have it wrong, they think only if the supposed origin shows up, it really is simple but people I think have been seduced by truth, you have to read with my mind to understand that, it says on Ancestry things like ethnicity, but I do not understand what that meens, Ancestry say I am British or thereabouts, yet they took my money and for the price say I have the same d.n.a with many people from the Gipsies, we share, then I thought well this is true we all come from people descended from Britain evan though lots are from country's like America, most of them have a spoon full of the Indian d.n.a, but now I have a match from a Lady, I will not say her name but she is a Gipsy who descends from one of the European country's, she is not evan from Britain, well I share d.n.a with her, my results say i share with many who have a certain % of Indian d.n.a, but how can I share d.n.a with this Lady, this is her d.n.a breakdown in numbers
England, Wales & Northwestern Europe 1%
Northern & Western India 34%
Turkey & the Caucasus 32%
Greece & the Balkans 15%
Eastern Europe & Russia 8%
Southern & Eastern India 8%
Iran/Persia 2%
I do not understand the way people from the Gipsy community have wrote over the last years, I thought I did but now I am questioning the science in thought, some people think a spoonful is who you are as in being Indian, then they would denigh others for only having a spoonfull as in being Gipsy as in family connections through shared d.n.a, you may not understand my mind, in life you are all your Ancestor's, true science now tells us maybe only the last several generations, after that it as all gone in who you are, that makes sense to me for you would have seven heads and such if you was everyone, if you share to people alive now d.n.a then that's who you are, if some want to play the numbers game lets go back, way back when we all meet up in Africa, yes I think the truth is very simple yet science can with truth cloud the mind of some.
Good look David may you never want my son, (that's what my mam used to say)
michael
And I know the Lady above who shares d.n.a with me is of the Gipsies for she shows her matches on her profile and they are Boswells Wharton's Allans from America and such and I also share a spoonful with all of them, we all share, the American matches people could say this or that, but the match from the Lady with all that Gipsy d.n.a, well how do i share d.n.a with her, I am the scrag end, no doubt in that, a bit i would say that fell of the spoon and in the shadows it lays, i suppose a kind of background noise.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge i will write back another time about the Smiths, you said your Grandmother, Beatrice was born in Whitwick, Leics in 1880; and is in the 1881 census at Bulwell Forest travelling with her Grandfather, Levi, they would be great people you are a proud man for them.
If you do have the test remember sometimes evan though you are of certain peoples the results do not show what say your Cousin may be told as results, well these statements i read on the information that may be found, and i myself must be related to lots of Irish people on my dads side for i have many cousins it says of Irish Ancestry, i have now read you can retest just on your Mothers side and that is what i will do for i have hundreds of Cousins distant and closer and i know that my dad was a farmer from Irelands wild west lands called Conaught as in the old Kingdoms of Ireland so it makes seance to zero in on my Mothers side to find the truths of, well i don't know what really, i do not know if i am looking, some sort of journey i would say, when i get there i suppose i will know, its just good to look though and if by looking i may help others then a good journey it would have been, who needs a destination when the company is good.
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Hello Michael
I have read and found interesting many of your posts over the last few years.
I have just read through the Wilsher, Wilshire thread.
Looking at your dna matches it appears that we have a link through a female Smith
related to Abraham 1680, Absalom Smith 1768 LeviSmith 1810 Divers Smith 1856 Ambrose Hammi Turtle Smith 1790.....
I have not done a dna. My Smiths are mainly Notts., Leics, and Derbys. My Grandmother, Beatrice was born in Whitwick, Leics in 1880; and is in the 1881 census at Bulwell Forest travelling with her Grandfather, Levi 1810-1883.
Please keep posting
All the best
David
Hi David
Are you related to these Smiths below, you see i was talking on here to Kiziah and Sky regarding family matters and Kizzy told me lots of truths, you see the Smiths in Nottingham come from George Smith who comes from the Smiths below, George had a son George whos long gone now and we would be known as cousins to them Smiths but i do not know why, then the d.n.a is showing me links to many Smiths like you found one, i have more but first will you tell if these Smiths below are related to you for they link with Gipsy George who was my Mothers Cousin, i am trying to weave oral tradition with d.n.a results plus the hard work that Sky and Kizzy have done, i hope you may write back soon with some help
michael
this below is what Kiziah told me, she said these are Georges family, Gipsy George was said to be a Cousin to my Mother but i dont know how, do you see in 1871 they were campt in Snenton, thats where i was born i have found all about the old caming ground and will put that on soon
GEORGE OXBY SMITH "Gypsy Smith" 1868-1941.
He also used the alias Clayton.
George Oxby Smith was about in 1868 Stanton, Nr Bingham, Nottinghamshire, he was the son of John (Johnny) Smith bn 1833 Tur Langton, Leicestershire s/o Samuel Smith 1791-1864 and Reservoy (Reservoir) Smith 1796-1860, I think they were Uncle and Niece... Georges mother was Maria Smith bn Scalford, Leicestershire, d/o Levi Smith bn 1810 and Sophia Smith born 1811-
George's Father Johnny also had another partner at the same time (I believe the "wives" were also sisters) both wives were his 1st cousins.
1871 - He is encamped with his father, his fathers 2 "wives" and all their children in Snenton, Notts.
1881 - He is again encamped with his father, his fathers 2 "wives" and children in Pickwell, Leicestershire.
1891 - I can't find him, but by this time he has formed a partnership with Ellen Clayton bn about 1873 (not been able to find anything on her before being with George Smith she possibly died 1912 Nottingham, but not sure at all.
1901 I cannot find him.
1911 - He is now in Nottingham at 12 Nelson Square, Nelson St, Nottingham - A Hawker of drapery goods. He's with Ellen Clayton, they say on the census Married 20yrs 13 children born alive, 8 living, 5 had died. Children with them on this census are:
Angelina 15
Mente 14
Alfred 12
Esperella (Esmeralda) 7
John 4
Frank 2
All the children are said to be born in Leicester. I have the birth cert for Esmeralda as mentioned previously in this thread - she was born 25 Feb 1904 in a Van on Robert Street, Leicester.
Some of the children used the surname Clayton-Smith at times.
On 27 Jul 1912 George Smith married in Nottingham Registry Office Agnes White bn 5 Nov 1893 - 1982. He gives his age as 35 (he was really 44), gives his occupation as Horse Dealer and her age as 24 (she's really 19) - she was mentioned in a newspaper article in 1936 as being of stout build, with black hair and a sallow complexion. George's Fathers occupation is given a Clothes Dealer, and Agnes's father is Robert White (deceased) Scissor Grinder. Witnesses are A Bacon and E Smith.
1939 Register George and Agnes are living 4 Keswick Street, Snienton, Nottingham with Agnes and some of their children. Some of Georges other children are living in nearby houses.
Panished has previously helped with Newspaper Articles mentioning and about George Smith which has been really useful
Thanks.
I will also upload notes I have on Georges Full Siblings and then another upload of his ½ siblings
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Hi Michael
Thanks for messaging.
Yes, I have George Oxby Smith in my tree. His mother Maria is the Sister of Ann Selina (Eleanor) Smith, bn Harby, Leicester in 1855. Selina was the Mother of my Grandmother Beatrice. That would make Maria my G/G/Aunt
Maria was also the link responsible for my contact with Kasiah who helped me a lot a couple of years ago, I still get updates from her "Twelvetrees" family on Ancestry.
I have a possible for George in the 1891 Census,
STAFFORDSHIRE > CHECKLEY > CHEADLE > DIST10
RG12/2192
BEAMHURST LANE ?? not 100% sure I have read this correctly
GEORGE SMITH HEAD MAR 22 CLOTHES PEG MAKER BN NOTTINGHAM
ELLEN -" - " - WIFE " 21 BIRMINGHAM
next listing
ARTHUR SMITH HEAD MAR 24 CLOTHES PEG MAKER LEICESTER
MARY A - " - WIFE 21 - " - " - " - ARNOLD
FRANCIS SON 1 WARWICKSHIRE
All the best for now
David
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Hi David
Looks like you found some good information, some of your relatives where over Arnold way from what Kizzy told me, i have not found out about Arnold much its just up and over the way from me, about a few hundred tossers of a stone from Sneinton, i will just show you some old paintings and maps soon so you may come to understand the area, try and feel into the past, it is no doubt in my mind there is a great links between the Wilshers and the Smiths, more than likely many many times down through these generations, they campt together at the lands i first found round Hawthorne Street, it was only a small camping place so i think only related family's would stay there, there was some foreigner Gipsies who stayed awhile but Old George Gipsy Smith tottally smashed them up bad, and broke there violins, the Wilshers would fight the Smiths to but that's what they seamed to do a lot, but there was lots of the Bacon's round there to who i have found through Kizzy and d.n.a that are in the related family's, i have matches to a Smith Girl who are in your related family plus i have a match to a Gray Girl who's family have the Bacon's and the Smiths who are related to you and Kizzy so there is d.n.a to match the oral family talk plus the census that Sky found plus the newspaper records of them all camping on that ground round the Wilford Meadows way ( Hawthorne street kings meadow road cremorne street and such) just look through these maps that show you the past
This painting is looking up to Nottingham from the South, on the left is the Castle to the right middle is St Marys that's where Sarah Boswell and my mother was taken when they both died, to the far right is (Snenton) Sneinton the name alters over the years, in the middle is the sharp spire of another church, old George Smith (Gipsy George) not old old George Smith (Gipsy Smith) would offten stand near there where there was the old barrow boys of the old family's selling things mostly fruit, i think many people of the Gipsies came into the Towns and such over generations when the common lands where enclosed, i would think a certain amount of barrow boys would hold Gipsy ancestry, Gipsy George i saw with my own eyes many times when i was young going through the town just stop and talk to some of the barrow boys, he would be old then and i was young but he seamed to be offten alone, just standing there with those far away eyes of the Gipsies, he was more of the darker shade than the white and dark hair and a long straight back a stiff and upright gate was his posture, he had, he always had the yellow and bright colours on a kneck tie round his top shoulder above is shirt, he was from an older age, i new now by this young age that somehow i was related to this quiet man of darkness but i dear not never to enter his presence, there was a sort of secret boundary that he seamed to radiate around himself, yet he could capture all with those dark eyes and imprison the field of vision evan tho he seamed to be staring far in to the future or evan the past, but i was fast as i have always been and it was me who stole his eyes, i new he was looking as i would walk by evan tho no one alive could catch such eyes, sometimes i would get the feeling of loneliness from him, once or twice when i was sure i was not in his grasp i would stop for a bear senconed and take a chance in not being seen in the way of a free glance, there he stood like a colossal of a statue staring out unto something i am sure that lay not before him, i remember being up at the Smiths House and the Woman talking about old Romany as in words, there was a few of them and all related they seamed like old hags to me that could make a lad trashed, Gipsy George just sat there and chatted to my Mother in a quiet fashion of ease, he could chat away and think of other things at the same time, i would feel his eyes, the Woman would just be crackling away about who new more of this and that and such things, but Gipsy George was reserved in his manner the Smiths still new many of the old Gipsy words that like the olden times have drifted away, Gipsy George Smith would talk to the old barrow boys of the town for that was all that was left of the older ways of the City life as from his earlyer days, everone of his age and older i would say was now gone he had time for my Mother to just to be polite now and that's a fine thing to share the good talk in an open manner i will tell more of the Smiths another time, i will probably never find certain truths, d.n.a oral talk, census records newspaper articles may link many but do they show the past as it was, i still have his eyes though so more will be revealed, of course these words where from me when i was young there must of been much more this is only from my own eyes
Snenton is on the right side of this painting next i will show more that will help everyone to understand the bigger picture, right at the front of this painting and below the castle is the lands known in the past as the Kings Meadow that became the lands that the Smiths and Family's like the Wilshers campt on, this is the South called the Meadows to the far right is Sneinton where next i will write about and show the maps and another painting to help
https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/nottingham-from-the-south-47533/search/actor:lambert-george-c-17001765/page/3/view_as/grid
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Hi David
I have been trying to understand what I have been finding, there is no doubt that the Smiths like the Wilshers and many other Gipsy names as in family's travelled over what is known as a circuit, over time the City and Towns expanded, many times the Gipsy camps where like satellites that surrounded these places, some like Radford Marsh were home at times to many family's like the Grays Knights Allens and such, others would just be for a few extended family's like at Hawthorne Street, by the way I think it was known as Smiths field for the reason the Smiths camped there, Sky I think was right in thinking this could be true, the bigger camps like over at Radford would be from an older age that would be the reason many extended family groups would use it, the one at Hawthorne Street Kings Meadow would have followed on from the fields across the other side of the Trent river, I found Gipsies over that way before Hawthorne Street, they got closer and closer to the City has the City itself moved outwards, where once there were fields where once there were farms where once there were free and welcoming hideaways, yes, where once you would say, but they went, they went and they never came back, houses houses and more houses, thats what was built on the old fields that serounded the City long ago, I have found all this to be true, I will tell you later much more, you must read what Ellen Roseman writes about in the article next, try and read every word, go back to it time and time again try to absorb what as happened, this happening is the reason Gipsies ended up at the sides of motorways when they moved on, many Gipsy Family's stayed round the City's and Towns for the day of the Greenfield had passed, many then would be absorbed into the fabric of the city, after a few generations most of the offspring would know nothing much, maybe they would say chavie and have a photo of a varda, my own Mother would hawk and buy and sell in my younger days and she was brought up with her own grand parents close by and them born about the 1860s70s or thereabouts, my own Grandmother would pull away from evan other Gipsies if she thought they wasn't up to what She thought, some people talk of the word Mokody has a word, everyone as to live and die in their own family truth, how could a stranger understand that which he thinks of as strange, i suppose some Gipsies kept living on nice green fields but most i think ended up on camp sites not in green fields as time passed into the 1900s and onwards, look below how it says the Smiths where in Snenton in 1871, then look at where it says (Land Society's field caravan) I will elaborate more on these subjects soon......
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............. I do know you and others can read and are more than likely educated far better than me, I am not trying to sound like I am teaching you anything, I hear so many people writing about Gipsy's and I truly think they are way of the mark, I have been studying the third Cousin meaning, I have many from the Gipsy's around this time, I will talk about that later but I share Gr Gr Grandparents with the Stanley's of the U.S.A straight third Cousin they say, you can be a third Cousin once removed that means it was maybe your Mother who was the third Cousin, so you has a match being the son of your Mother was a Cousin once removed, I have so many American Gipsy's that I share Old Family ties with like the Young's Boswells, and the Lees from Canada the Scamps from the South plus many more not to mention several Gipsy family's in these lands like the Smiths which i have several matches, I just can't believe it, i don't evan know how or why, i was reading what Richard said on a d.n.a thread a time back and maybe this is a reason why so many Gipsy Family's are related to me, read below from Richard the Romany Gipsy Scholar of great renown who is the noted author of many of the most relevant written words of the Gipsies of the Lands we call Home...the one and only wordsmith extraordinaire............... https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/
Offline richarde1979
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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #107 on: Monday 11 June 18 08:56 BST (UK) »
extract
I tend to agree with you on the ethnicity tests in general Sally, though I tested with LivingDNA, and it was about 85% acccurate compared to my paper research. It was very accurate with English counties, but not so great identifying regions outside those (Ireland, Scotland, France etc) so I think the companies are slowly getting better in that respect, as more people test, and their databases expand.
That said I would not agree with that analysis of mtDNA. mtDNA is not vague or unreliable, it gives very precise and accurate ancestry results:
"mtDNA is passed down exclusively from your mother. Because mtDNA does not include a combination of DNA from both parents, it does not change with every generation.In fact, mtDNA changes extremely slowly it might remain exactly the same for dozens of generations!
mtDNA testing ignores the main DNA in a cell, and looks just at the DNA of the mitochondria instead. Among other things, that means the test only has to examine about 16,500 genetic base pairs, instead of the 3.2 billion base pairs found in our DNA."
In tracing links to ancient populations, it is of far more value than Y Haplogroups, because mtDNA is present in higher numbers than nuclear DNA, and it is more likely to survive intact in ancient remains.
The above is from Richard, i have d.n.a matched to several Wilsher and the Holmes familys, i match to most if not all of the old names that are thought of as Gipsies, and guess what David i dont evan know how, a long time back Lee wrote it will be there, it will be there, if your from them it will be there, Lee said you may have to go back a certain generation to pick up the trail of the unknown names, but if your of the Romany it will be there, you will as a person connect to the Gipsies as a whole, this is more all less how Lee spoke years back, then guess what i did my d.n.a and now i evan have ancestor's from Derbyshire called Boswell, that was a distant one, and i have distant Boswells from America plus Third Cousin Boswells from America and Lees from Wales. how about that then.. i am only talking like this because i still do not have a clue, Lee said his Dad always said Gipsy's are all related, through family ties this must be true, Lees Dad was right evan i am related to the Romany, as in lots of names, but who am i though, i guess i am still just the son of Rebecca and she the daughter of Rebecca the great matriarch of history who herself was the daughter of Mariah the great unknown......................
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...........anyway read this next about Sneinton from some of Kizzys research over the years, look where it says (Land Society's field caravan) make sure you read the article from Ellen Rosenman that I put on next about enclosure-acts-and-the-commons, make sure you understand fully about the meaning of (Land Society's field) it is first very important to read what Ellen Rosenman has to say, if you can help in any way you should write back with your research and knowledge correct me many times that would be the right thing todo, I will ask of you only one thing though, you may have to ask Kizzy, so this is what i ask of you. when George Smith died in 1941 what was on his death certificate.
Right this is about the Land Society field system, this knowledge as helped me understand what is going on around Nottingham right up to the times of my youth, good luck pal
Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #66 on: Saturday 14 September 19 17:04 BST (UK) »
GEORGE OXBY SMITH "Gypsy Smith" 1868-1941.
He also used the alias Clayton.
George Oxby Smith was about in 1868 Stanton, Nr Bingham, Nottinghamshire, he was the son of John (Johnny) Smith bn 1833 Tur Langton, Leicestershire s/o Samuel Smith 1791-1864 and Reservoy (Reservoir) Smith 1796-1860, I think they were Uncle and Niece... Georges mother was Maria Smith bn Scalford, Leicestershire, d/o Levi Smith bn 1810 and Sophia Smith born 1811-
George's Father Johnny also had another partner at the same time (I believe the "wives" were also sisters) both wives were his 1st cousins.
1871 - He is encamped with his father, his fathers 2 "wives" and all their children in Snenton, Notts.
Re: smith/booth gypsies nottingham
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 15 April 12 16:33 BST (UK) »
Hi - Back again,
This is all I know about the Booth gypsy connection...
1871 census
Radford, Sneinton, Land Society's field caravan, nottinghamshire
In first van
John Smith bn 1834 - his 2 co wives and all their children
next Van
Everitt Plumb bn 1833 Head 38 bn Nottinghamshire
Keziah Booth bn 1839 Boarder 32 Bn Leicestershire
James Plumb bn 1866 Son 5 Bn "
Henry Plumb bn 1868 son 3 bn "
Keziah Plumb bn 1871 daug 0 bn "
Everett Plumb bn 1864 son 7 bn Notts
Amelia Plumb bn 1860 daug 11 bn Leic
Everett Plumbs bn 1833 - his parents were
Nathan Plumb bn 1797 - 1885 Lambley and
Ann Cook bn 1806 - 1870 Gunthorpe Notts
One of their other daughters and Everett's sister was a Violetta Plumb bn 1833
who married in 1852 2Q Nottingham a William Caunt. Someone has a lot of their family history on line. They ended up living in Grantham.
Not sure if this helps you...
What I have learnt by reading books is that when looking for Gypsy relatives you have to forget how the non-gypsy folk use their names in a set way. Travelling folk interchange the surname - use mothers maiden name, or an alias - and change their first name from time to time as well - also they didn't always marry in the way we would call marry - so there is no legal trace - it's wonderful!!! But most often there is a christening somewhere - you just have to find it.
I really need to make the connection with the Smiths and Keziah Booth...
Kazi
Extract from article below
Rosenman, Ellen. On Enclosure Acts and the Commons. Britain, Representation and Nineteenth-Century History.
"The Northern Star, the chief newspaper of Chartism, mourned the extinction of the hardy sons of the earth who typified Englishness (THE LAND!). Radical politics consistently looked to an imputed past as the model for the future. This fealty to a single version of England, understood as originating in its ancient Anglo-Saxon origin, is one of the defining features of working-class politics.[13] National identity itself was at risk; with the betrayal of a foundational culture, the land itself is dying:
No more thy glassy brook reflects the day,
But choked with sedges, works its weedy way . . .
Sunk are thy bowers, in shapeless ruin all,
(Deserted Village ll. 41-43, 47)
Given this context, it is not surprising that populist politics turned to a variety of land schemes in an attempt to restore pre-enclosure communities. In the late 1840s and 1850s, freehold land societies attempted to recreate these communities on a micro-scale."
http://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_articles=ellen-rosenman-on-enclosure-acts-and-the-commons
Ellen Rosenman, On Enclosure Acts and the Commons ...
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Hi David
Kizzy wrote below old old George Gipsy Smith died in 1941
Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #66 on: Saturday 14 September 19 17:04 BST (UK) »
GEORGE OXBY SMITH "Gypsy Smith" 1868-1941.
He also used the alias Clayton.
do you know what month he died in 1941, and also was there a George stated as one of his sons, there is another George from what Kizzy told me who was born in Hyson Green Nottingham 1889, i am trying to work out was Gipsy George Smith the son of George Gipsy Smith who Kizzy says ended up at Keswick street, this below is the other George that Kizzy wrote about who was born in Nottingham, i want to be sure that the George who we new was the son of the George Smith who lived at Keswick street, this other George below plus any number of them could of had a George, i know they are all related and many around Sneinton
Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #73 on: Tuesday 17 September 19 14:46 BST (UK) »
Beatrice Smith
Bn Jan 1860 Braunston, Leicestershire
Bp 8 Jan 1860 Croxton Kerrial, Leic
Marr 16 Jan 1888 in Leicester James Wesseldine
D 2 Aug 1948 Nottingham, Notts.
1871 and 1881 census she is with her parents and family.
1939 Register she is living in Nottingham with her family and died there in 1948.
Children:
Lillie Wesseldine 1889-1957
John (Johnny) Wesseldine 1890-1971
Mary Ann Wesseldine 1892-
James Wesseldine 1894-1959
William Wesseldine 1894-1900
Thomas Albert Smith
Bn 1863 Plumbtree, Notts.
Bp 11 Jan 1863 Plumbtree, Notts.
D 1928 The old Workhouse Hospital, Nottingham.
Partnered Medlane Smith 1862-1907 (died from appendicitis) d/o Hawthorne Smith 1817-1883 & Cinamenta Smith 1819-1914
Children:
George Smith Bn 1889 Hyson Green, Notts.
Reservoir Smith Bn 5 Nov 1890 Castleton St, Nottingham -Died 1980 Doncaster, Yorkshire.
She married in 1908 George Edward Sidney Margetts 1886-1941
Mary Ann Smith Bn 4 Apr 1893 Hyson Green Died 1973 Nottingham, Notts.
She married in 1915 Thomas Stanley 1892-1945
Beatrice Smith Bn 1899 Hyson Green, Notts.
Henry (Harry) Smith Bn 1901 Berridge Road, Hyson Green, Notts.
Old Gipsy George Smith and my Mother stated we were cousins, Kizzy stated old old George Gipsy Smith lived at Keswick street Sneinton in the later years, i need the month in 1941 that he died to help to find concluded truth and also did he have a son named George who went on to be the Gipsy George Smith related to us, i know there are many many children some maybe unknown and Sneinton seems to be a strong place of the Smiths from the family of George Smith Gipsy Smith who died in 1941, Gipsy George Smith who we new died also from Sneinton and lived there to, i have to try and work things out for i would see the face of my Mother as she recounted the death of her own Mother, she told me she asked and asked she tryed and she tryed but no one would tell her the real truth regarding the death of her own Mother in fact from what i have found she was lied to
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Hi David
This is just to show you some information that may help you to understand how things where, everything connects, Old Gipsy George Smith who said we were related had sons to I remember one was named George and another named Sid Smith, so they liked the name George but in the story below you will read how one of old old George Gipsy Smiths sons was also named Sid, so I think they liked that name to, it may well be a clue, I will show and finish telling you about Sneinton soon, Sneinton links straight onto Carlton, also the old RedLion street in the old Narrow Marsh next to and below the Queen of the City St Marys, then within walking distance is the Meadows which they all lived on, they all moved about the City but mostly ended up in Sneinton, the Smiths and the Wilshers for sure go back a long way, I think there were many Smiths this way they I think would know the ones more South and the ones more North, East and West to, I think that ole Gipsy grapevine what they talk about in this day was well in use many years before our time, I will finish what I was talking about regarding Sneinton soon and show you more things of your Smith ancestor's, if you can not help me in any of the questions I ask of you, well it doesn't matter, I will get there one day if not I wont
Story below shows the name of Sid also it holds many truths
Friday 02 August 1929
West Bridgford Times & Echo
Nottinghamshire
CARLTON MAN'S 81 CONVICTIONS!
Gipsy Sent To Prison For Police Assault.
BRUTES 15 CHILDREN.
Remarkable Demonstration Outside the Shire Hall.
A remarkable demonstration of filial affection was witnessed both inside and outside the Nottingham Shire Hall on Wednesday. when George Smith, aged 61. who lives in a caravan In Cemetery-road. Carlton, was charged with assaulting the police and committing an aggravated assault on his wife. The wife, Agnes Smith, made an application for a maintenance order on the grounds of persistent cruelty. Police-sergeant Oscroft stated that as a result of a complaint concerning Smith using indecent language he visited the caravan colony at 9.40 p.m. last Saturday along with P.c. Morgan. On reaching the place he heard Smith using the most vile and indecent language imaginable. When Smith saw them he rushed to the gate and picked up a cart-shaft, swinging it about as if he was mad. He was very excitable, and after he had calmed down a little witness told him that he had called to see him about the bad language he was using.
like a Raging Lion.
Smith then raved like a raging lion, said the sergeant He shouted that he had done four months for better than he was, and could do it again. He threatened to fetch a gun and shoot them both. Smith then picked up a cart-shaft and used it bayonet fashion. striking him in the chest. There was a struggle, and eventually Smith was overpowered and handcuffed. When charged at the police-station with assaulting Ps. Oscroft in the execution of his duty. Smith replied: Fetch a doctor. I want to be down. Asked by Mr. R. A. Young (defending) if there was a quarrel between the man and his wife. Ps. Oscroft said that there had been. With regard to the use of the cart-shaft Smith did not simply throw it out of the way. He made a deliberate thrust. P.c. Morgan, who had taken part in the adventure. corroborated. and said that when Smith thrust the shaft at the sergeant the latter was knocked back a yard.
Prisoner's Version.
Smith's story was that his wife fell out of the trap when they reached home from Nottingham. and she blamed him for causing the fall, and went to fetch a policeman. The police handcuffed him, and he fell over the cart-shaft which he kicked out of his way. Asked if he was drunk Smith said. No, or i should not have gone to the policestation as quiet as i did. Sidney Smith, a 17-years-old son of the accused, said he saw his mother fall out of the trap. His father did not cause her to fall. With regard to the cart-shaft his father tripped over it, and with a few angry words to himself flung it out of the way
.......................continued on the next page
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...............continued from previous page
Wife Thrashed With Whipstock.
The next summons was for an aggravated assault on his wife. Mrs. Smith said she had been married 17 years. and there was four children under 16 years of age. Last Saturday she went to Nottingham with her husband and returned home with him about four o'clock. He then went out and returned about ten o'clock. and belaboured her with a whipstock without any cause whatever. He struck her at least eight blows, and her screams brought P.s. Oscroft on the scene, who arrested her husband. Asked where she was going to live if she got a separation order Mrs. Smith said she would rather go to Bagthorpe than return to her husband . If her son spoke the truth with regard to the trap incident he would say that he did not see it. He was not there, and she did not fall out of the trap. Miss Mosley (Police Court Missioner) stated that she had examined Mrs. Smith. She was black and blue all over, and in a terrible state. At the request of her solicitor (Mr. F. Clayton) Mrs. Smith showed her arm to the magistrates. which was one mass of bruises from wrist to shoulder.
Scene in Court.
Smith showed his excitability in court. He constantly held up the proceedings, shouting in a loud voice, and when asked if he could not keep his client quiet Mr. R. A. Young said he knew of no means to achieve that end. The defence to the assault on the wife was a complete denial. Smith sticking to the story that she fell out of the trap. and the bruises were obtained in that way. Smith admitted that his wife had left him on six previous occasions. Inspector Richards said that Smith had a shocking record. His 81 previous convictions included five assaults on the police.
Unmitigated Brutality.
Lord Belper (chairman) characterised the offence as unmitigated brutality, and sent Smith to prison for six months on each charge, the sentences to run concurrently. The wife's application for a maintenance order would be allowed, and Smith would have to pay 30s. a week. Mrs. Smith would have the custody of the four youngest children. Immediately the sentence was announced Smith burst into tears, and raved about the court. He would not be pacified, and a group of gipsies who had been sitting at the back of the court Joined in the pandemonium. Smith shouted to his sons to keep a tight hold on his property, and he was taken to the cells groaning between tears.
Gathering of Nomads.
The scene outside the court was as if all the nomads on Epsom Downs had been let loose. Smith. it is stated has 15 children (some with a previous wife), and most of them were in the street in charge of horses and traps. Several of the sons and daughters, whose ages ranged from 40 to 17, were in tears, and none seemed to have any sympathy for the woman who had been so brutally treated.
In the paper below it gives the address of where they where stopping in their caravans, it must have been a lane next to Cemetery-road of which i have not found in Carlton, Carlton is just up Carlton road which is next to Keswick street and all those roads and streets that the Wilshers and Smiths lived on, Keswick street is in Sneinton and Sneinton is next to Carlton and st Ann's, everyone is within close reach, i think some would move into houses and yards yet still move about with wagons around the City way up into the second world war, others stayed in houses but would move about from house to house, others it is true to say left Nottingham and once again hit the road, my older brother and sister told me they used to visit an Aunt somewhere in Nottingham who still lived in a old wooden varda, i remember my Mother talking about Marry, as in how you say the word "married" you know how you say I will marry that girl it's a strange way to say a name but that was how her name was spoke, Marry not marie, it rhymes with how you say harry, Marry, yes Marry was her name i to this day do not know who she was, my Mother said she was our Aunt, i was thinking at one time if it may have been Mariah that's my Gr Grandmother but i think for sure she may have passed away awhile before, on records my Gr Grandmothers name is mary or marie but that was not her name, her real name was Mariah and they never put that on records, people would think such things strange but when you think how Joseph Wilsher Wiltshire lived with his wife and her mother as two wife's well I suppose some would think strange of these things, to tell you the truth I don't think my own mother-in-law thinks much of me at all so we can knock that one on the head in this day, Ria lived in a house not to far away from us, i would be a very young age when she was still alive but i remember her well, she was another Aunt my Mother told me i was to behave myself when we would go to see Ria, Ria was from the Romany Gipsy family named Holmes, my Mother would say the Smiths was also like them as in family, she told me the Holmes and the Smiths were also altogether down the years, i lingered just one second to much once, just a second and Rias eyes pierced my soul, straight through, straight through, but she was fast she never lingered long in capturing me and freed my eyes and through this she allowed me to keep hers, she was also reserved in a quiet strength yet i felt a cold breeze that lay behind the barricade.
Thursday 01 August 1929
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
Stonepit-lane. Carlton
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Hi I see on one of you posts that you said you have links to mark ripley, flora ripley( nee scamp) and other beaneys/ripleys and scamps. Flora ripley is my great great nan on my great grandads side and mark ripley is my great great grandad on my great nans side if you have any more information on relative please could you let me know or if you would like to know anything Ill be more than happy to help
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Hi
I have researched through the years in the way i do, i have found much information about the names you speak of, take a look through this old thread that i wrote on a few years ago, try and read all the pages in the story's from the link below, pages 1-5, true in this time i have found i am related to a Beaney from the South, we share dna, all these long Cousin links are coming to life through me testing with Ancestry dna, the links range from first Cousin to distant Cousin, in me it really starts to show up in the 4-6 Cousin range, this is when the whole range of England as a dna map appears with the South as in Family's connecting through the Cousin sequence, i am through dna related to the Coopers in England and America, i do not know how though, how can i share dna in this day with a man named W. Beaney from the South, he himself is related to all the names you would know, there is more information you may like to read in my dna, i may well in time put it on for you, its to do with the names you look for, i ask nothing of you, its fine you already done good by me, read all the posts on the link below, i also found many many storeys about the Beaneys that i never wrote about on here, it took me age's to find them, many days, for the name is spelled several ways, i enjoyed reading about the Ripley's, all about there life's and storeys, i respect all the Family's big or small fancy name or shadowed up, any one connected to the Gipsy's through breed is of the Gipsy's in my mind, no doubt about that, i will see what i can see in my dna that may bring a few names that may help you, i did find another Flora Scamp she must be related to the Flora Ripley Scamp that we are both linked to, this Flora is also of old she married a William Addley, this would be generations ago, floras Father was Gilderoy Scamp, now i was looking at this Addley man on my dna matches he is from New Zealand, it is stated he is related to me in this day in the far Cousin link, well then i took a look at his Family tree well the little parts that he lets people brouse on without contacting him, and long years ago there was a male relative of his named William Addley who married a Flora Scamp, now in this day me and this Addley fellow share old dna, i also share dna Cousin links with more from them of the South, ones like the Aryes and such and several Stanley's not to mention many more, the big truth that keeps flashing before me is that on the Gipsy dna Cousin links evan if you go back to the distant Cousin right at the end of the range that Ancestry can reach in this day well when you click on where it states related links as people you and your Cousin are both linked to, well in the Gipsy community evan in far distant Cousins from the long years you will find that several family's still have old sharing dna links, these links through dna may come in clusters, this means i match with say a Gray girl through dna, we then both match and share with several other family names like Smith Boswell and such, then when i find a new match maybe a Cooper it may not match to the grays or Smiths but Family's like Young and Buckland plus they all hold several same dna matches, so the Gipsy's in my dna Cousin matches have and hold many inter related Gipsy matches but often say a Stanley may match to several but not all the other Cousin links that i find, there seems to be clusters, what i mean is if i find a Cousin then we see how we both match with several other Gipsy Family's, but then i find other Cousins who may not share with the first Cousin that i found, there are several Clusters, on the Cousin links from my Fathers side the far Cousin links isolate to nothing but individual dna links that share only with the said old dna that has shown up yet on my Mothers side evan the far distant Cousins share links with other Cousins, i can not over state this, the Gipsy's of old are very strongly connected through shared dna, somehow this dna as come down to me and is still alive and going strong, the America links that are direct to me through dna are strong so seeing as the Gipsy's are stated to have gone over there in the mid to late 1800s or evan before this, well they left a bit in me, i will look for you to try and see if anything is of interest to your research or maybe just help you to understand more the bigger picture....good luck
michael
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=424836.msg6471507#msg6471507
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Hi
I just wanted to show you a few things that the Addley who i dna match to and has the Flora Scamp long distance relative is holding dna from the Scamp Gipsy's, not just a Flora Scamp who which i am sure someone could find such a name if they tyred that as no relationship to the Gipsy Scamps, you see when you match to a name Ancestry then give you the option to see who you and your dna named match share dna with, that means you both are related through the Cousin sequence to which they evaluate your dna, so me and the Addley man from New Zealand are both related through dna to 17 people plus each other, all of these are in the 4-6 Cousin Groupings, most say the highest chance you could go as far as is a third Cousin but i would say that 4 to 6 Cousin range was a safer bet from reading as i do, they do not show you your Distant Cousin dual matches beyond sixth Cousin,
so these below are my dna matches that the Addley man also is dna related to, so me and Addley share these Cousin dna matches below, i have left out first names and such things, these are just the names we share through shared dna, each of us would have different matches that we do not share old dna with
Fourth to sixth Cousin range
Young
lobos
J.B.
C.S.
Young
T.C.
Abele-Stanley
Boswell
Camp
Smith
McCallion
Gallego
C.C.
Sharp
Big jack
Young
Everyone of these people above are from the Gipsy's, everyone, their trees that show up are packed full of Gipsy's that everyone from the Gipsy Community who new of such things would instantly recognise, some do not show their trees yet i look at their dna matches to me that we both share and low and behold theres Gipsy's from top to bottom, all the clusters interlink yet if you look close just like me you will find the clusters, i seem to be related to many clusters, i will never find out how or why, that's the way of it i suppose, in the above names that me and Addley share old dna with you will find quite a few of them are in America and Kent in the South of England, everyone of them share these kind of Country's below in their Ethnicity, it consists of only several percent but you can see what needs to be seen, most of their dna is from Western Europe Britain but you can see the link that binds them
Central AsiaSouth
Northern Italy
Southern India
The Balkans
Germanic Europe
Southern Italy
Baltics
Northern India
Cyprus
Iran/Persia
Turkey & the Caucasus
Greece & Albania
Me and the Addley man also share dna with one more person from America, its a bit of a sad case and the person is looking for answers they go by the user name of M...er but they say they was adopted, and they found out i think they came from a Rhoads and a Butler this person matches to me and the Addley man and when you look at the Family tree they have learned of well right amongst the far off names there you will see Elias Boswell, Missouri Wharton Boswell, Major john Lee lee, Henry Harry Cooper, Myrle Cooper and more, i do see lots of trees like that and think often the person would not have much of an idea of such known names of the long distant past.
I Just put this on above to show you i just do not try and guess at things, this above is strong evidence that needs to be looked at by all seeking the truth, offten the truth lays in the place you would not usually find yourself frequenting, i will not go on no more but if looking through my matches again i will write another day, i may not either but good luck to you and i hope and wish for the new year to bring your Family a great Kindness
Leahcim
ps. just on a side note, i never had no idear about dna matches and names like Beaney, if you ever get a chance to read some of my older posts well i wrote about Dan Boswell who is buried over at Selston the Booths are there to i am related through dna to them to, but Dan as in Daniel Boswell the great Boswell of old well read of his story on the Gipsy Dan Boswell thread on rootschat, well guess what i have several Boswell dna matches, well guess what one of their names is, it starts with a D..... he is a Distant Cousin
D.....l Boswell
5th8th Cousin
how about that then, i went on where it shows you who him and me share old dna with up to the sixth Cousin range and its wild with them American Gipsy's and many many others evan some of them from above, then the Bucklands and Lovell's dna match to me and join this cluster and names like Jeffery's, Allans and Wharton's i dna match to a Family named Bailey to and lots of names that i have never known of but if you again look at their trees or dna matches to yourself you just realise they must be new names that married into old names yet now they are Gipsy's names in their own right, fair play and respect to them all, i feel bad for leaving lots out but there everywhere, if i never came on rootschat i would never have of learned of such things, and i wrote about the Beaneys and Ripley's years back, who would think all these names one day would come to be connected to me through the story of life
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=730582.0
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Hi
I wrote all this below for you to show you things that you may find interesting to read and hopfully help you in your Family research, there is much more than this and many more inter related matches, this is just a small sample of a very interesting story's of the old Gipsy's who live in this day through the eyes of their people
I have been looking at the Gardiners Mathews Lees and Scamps that i am sure are related to the beaneys and Ripleys, i found a male match to myself named Gardiner this is just some of his relations
Thomas Gardiner 1820
Sampson Scamp 1774
Abel Lee 1751
Johnathan Mathews 1786
I also found another Male Gardiner
5th8th Cousin
We had 59 Shared Matches 4th6th Cousin highest predicted range 3rd cousin
I found a male match named Randell he had in his tree Elizabeth Gardener 1816 Richard Gardener 1784 Randle as matches to many known Gipsy names plus he as the India trace dna range
Another match a male Beaney who had a Samuel Beaney 1809-Henry Beny 1694-Emmaneul Hilton-1802 MentyScamp/ Mathews 1884 she is the daughter of Oliver Scamp and Maria Gardiner also there is a Mark Ripley born 1738 related to the above
There is a gardener in one of my distant cousin matches named T.C. they shares seven dna matches to me including names like Stanley Smith and someone named Riding who's tree is full of Lees Hearne and Prices, all seven of T.C matches are dna linked to related Gipsy names, they have in their tree names like Jane Boswell 1745 Wales Valentine John Wood 1782 Wales Alabaina Wood 1795 Wales Robert ? Jones 1765 Wales Elizabeth (bet albbaina) Jones 1819 Wales George Gardiner 1739. T.C. is a distant Cousin to me right at the end of the range the Stanley Smith and Riding matches to me are in the 4th cousin range
i found a female Match named Price who dna matches to me and many other of my matches that are full of Gipsy's from long ago, in this Price tree you will find the names of John Price 1672 Joseph Ingram 1711 and a Gardiner who died in the 1990s I am not sure who in this Price match to me is from the Gipsy's but their dna matches are full of many Gipsy named dna matches I just put this on to show how a Gardiner may match to a name like Price yet could or could not be a person from the Gipsy's, its just a clue that may or may not lead you, now though this way of looking well it shows you the bigger picture, this female price match to me has the India trace Ethnicity plus 47 named dna matches that are also full of the Gipsy names of old
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I also found a male Match named Page they have ten dna same named matches to me like Stanley Boswell Lee Smith and People from the Scamps and such names plus many more but I just put the famous ones on to show you that this Page match to me is a Gipsy match to learn from just like all the others evan though you will never hear of the name Page, this Page mans ancestry goes all the way back to Cinnaminta Scamp 1847 who weds a William Henry Gardiner 1843, it will go back to an evan later time but this information is just on the free bit that they let you see, also evan though on the Page mans tree it only lets you see as far back as William Henry Gardiner 1843, well if you click on the map of England that is just below the named matches you will see a circle near a place called Chelmsford, well when you click on that a man named Thomas Gardiner comes to you from the year 1800, I think that may be Williams ancestor, there is a note that says Shellow Boswells, Essex England, I do not know what this meens.
i also found a match to someone named A.P. the person who is stated as being a manager for A.P. as in doing the computer work is also the same person doing several names that also are dna related to me, you can learn much by looking into this way of researching, anyway A.P. is dna related to me and again I found him by typing in the name Gardiner as in everyone named Gardiner who is in one of my matches trees will show up to me, so all the dna matches that relate to me with also the name Gardiner are now assessable in a format that Ancestry supply as in on your computer screen, then A.P. lets you see his tree to several generations back, if you write to him I think he may let you see more if you pass a sort of test, he would have to like you I think to some degree, to be truthfull I am not into writing to folk myself, I may one day who knows, anyway what was I on about, that was it A.P. well on A.P.s tree I can see no names I think I know of, but when you click on the map of Britain for all his ancestor's Alabaina Wood 1795 Wales and lots like the names from T.C., the match I have just wrote about, also theres about three more people along with A.P. and T.C. that all match to me and are managed by one person but each may offer a different clue, now on A.P.s map Abram Wood comes up from 1700 but hes not from Wales like them other Woods but England and now theres a Sarah Boswell, so now I will click on their related matches to me, that meens people like A.P. share dna with me from history, so all the people we both share with will come on at the onset of one click, now what comes up is strange for me and A.P. only share with two people, I Know A.P. is a distant link but evan Gipsy far links unlike others I have found still hold many inter related links, so I look at the two links that me and A.P. share, so the first of the people me and A.P. share with is a Lawrence but they are totally private and give nothing away so I click on who the Lawrence person is dna related to as in the same as me as in we both share, so now a name Hill comes up and only this name, so I click on who me and Hill are related to and the computer screen is lit full of Stanley's Boswells and Young, in Hills family tree there are people like Coopers and Mathews from long ago, this all started with me looking at a Gardiner who was in A.P.s tree, A.P. had two sharing dna matches with me, one was that Lawrence who lead on to that Hill man who then showed up all my many related links, the other one i now look at is a person named Young who comes under a fourth cousin range well Ancestry say you could be at best a third cousin in the 4 to 6 range but the Young name is in the fourth cousin column, anyway the Young ancestry dna match to me is from America his ancestry goes back to England right back to people named Daisy Williams who wed Thomas Stanley and William Young who wed Sophia Stanley, if you click on who I and Young share old dna with the matches now go over 40 with the Lees and more coming into share the dna, they all are packed full of well known names that evan I can instantly recognise, right from looking for the Gardiners who are related to the Scamps who relate to the Beaneys and the Ripley's I have ended up back with the Young's who I have several dna matches to, if you hop through my dna and only through shared cousin dna links then you will find yourself on a trip around Gipsy Britain with a stop or two in America, A.P as found several old Gardiner relations like T.C who went as far as 1707 with George Gardiner but evan tho you can see T.C. and A.P. are from the same family's through history A.P. goes back to the 1600s with the Gardiners as in Ariaantje Gardenier 1678, now these Gardiners may be totally not of the Gipsy's yet you come to find many answers or leads by looking at the bigger picture, just to finish this story of if you then click on who Young and me share old dna with many more names solid full of old Gipsy's come up as sharing matches, well within three clicks my nearest matches like first to third cousin come through, there all of the Gipsy's like the Wilshers Allens Smiths and more, this is all through shared dna. I have more Gardiner matches to but will leave that there
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Regarding Flora Ripley Scamp well I found a dna match to me named Mendham, well on one side of His Family you have George Clarke 1889 wed to Flora Scamp 1890 George is the son of Thomas Clarke wed to sarah Newman, Floras dad was William J Scamp wed Louisa lea, the Lees in this Mendhams Family go right back to a Elisha Rightdoer Lee 1710 and the Mathews are there again in Sarah Lee Mathews 1818 the Scamps go back to 1712 with John Scamp, theres more to but I am not sure who is who, on Menhams shared dna with me we are both related in dna to 13 people like the Young's Stanley's Smith Wharton's and names I have come to know now like Sharp and Gallego that are full of the Gipsy old names, the Lees are there to in one of the 13 matches to me
I found Flora, Flora Ripley Scamp, again through another dna match, this time its through a Clark, it states Floras dad William was born 1851 and her mother Louisa Lee 1857, now the Scamp line goes one generation back from the first Flora Scamp I wrote about, it goes back to John Scamp and Grace Lee there are Mathews Wells and Whites to, if you click on the English map you will see your family going back through Flora Ripley Scamp to John Scamp 1693 plus Scamps everywhere, the Lees now go back to 1595 Elsabeth Lee, the Kemp's go back to 1692, they maybe Scamps for Rose Kemp Scamp is there 1755 1751, if you click on this Clark's dna matches that i share with him you again find the Boswells and Grays and big Jack from Americas there again with all his big Gipsy old ancestry, the Buckley's Jeffery's Stanley's are there to and now someone named Hoyer who matches to all my close cousins, Hoyer is most likely a 2nd cousin but they put her in the 3rd4th Cousin range then state and put her in a third cousin line, shes related through dna to the Holmes Wilshers and Smiths, no matter where you find yourself with these far of cousins you always end up back where you started.
Now I have just found Flora again this time through a dna match named Henderson, Flora is in this tree named as Florance Clarke, that's three dna matches to Flora Ripley Scamps Family tree through diffetrent people, so this is another far distant match, on this tree again is the Scamps and Mathews that would be connected to the Ripley's and Beanies, theres Reiley Scamp 1820 Samson 1774 John Scamp 1693 and lots of Williams and more Johns and more evan a Ceclia 1779 then a Rose Kemp (Scamp) 1755 theres Lees Mathews and such that you would have recognised along with many of the old Gipsy's of the past, theres evan a Gulielmi Stanley 1696 that's some name for sure, I think they are all of the Gipsy's, if you click on who Henderson is related to through shared dna with me the Grays and Bucklands now show up, if you click on the Gray persons dna matches that are the same as my shared dna well in their tree is the Smiths and Bacon's from Selston Nottinham way that I have researched, that thompson the so-called writer from the Gipsy society stated them as so-called Gipsy's years back well now here they are related through breed to the Grays and Smiths two of the greatest Gipsy names of England.
I hope you found some of the information helpfull to yourself, if i find more that may be related to yourself i will write back for i am sure i came across more links to the Beaneys
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I dna match to this man below he as a Beeney in his family tree, i do not know if Mary Beeney is from the Gipsy's, its just i looked at all his shared matches to me and saw a link maybe, i have found many Gipsy links through dna yet offten the said person is looking for certain names that are not of the Gipsy's from the old times, yet in one part of their old Family tree are connections to very old Family's which have and hold old strong Gipsy Ancestry yet some people it seems are long out of all knowedge of such things or it just does not meen nothing to them in this day that it may do for others still close to their old Family's of a certain branch for i have found most times the Gipsy branch in a persons tree yet containing at times the oldest of the Romany dna is but only a small part in Family trees that are vast and contain many types of folk, i suppose one mans poison is another mans wine
McCormack Australia small part of his Family tree below, maybe some of these are of the Gipsy's but i do not know for sure its just if you then look at is dna matches to me he must get his Ancestry of old Gipsy dna from maybe someone in this list below
Mary Beeney
1730
John Blackman
Lucretia (Letty / Littey) Blackman
17971842
William Blackman
1770
Charles Lee
17981881
Christopher Lee
1769
Frances Lee
18191842
Lesher (Lethier) Lee
1706
Diana Draper or Lee
1708
McCormack
Shared dna matches with me below
Highest range 3rd cousin
4th6th Cousin
4th Cousin
CRAMP....... India dna
Thiele.......... America ................India dna
Jeffery dna not shown matched to Boswell Stanley Buckland Young and many more
guinnevere ..........America
part of guinnevere Family tree
Hamilton "Hamie/Ammie/Amy" Palmer/Parmer
Patience Palmer Woodruff Ballard Chase
18371912
Alice Adams
17601787
England
Nathan Boswell
England
Samuel Cooper
18481880
England
Jane Cuthwaite
17701833
Mart Jeffery
Robert Palmer
1805
Patience Palmer Woodruff Ballard Chase
18371912
Ruth Small
17871850
Lydia/Liddia Smith
Purcella Wells
Susannah
1744
Phoebe Wells
18451889
Rotherhithe, Surrey
Florence (Francis, Fiance, France) Harrison Cooper Lee
18821976
Elmira/Elvira Lee
Phillis Gipsy's Lee
17781848
Robert Boswell (1735)
17351806
Edward (Ned) Boswell
17761851
Jennie E Boswell
19001959
Mary Ann Boswell
17571805
Sylvester Boy Boswell
18701951
John Stanley
1744 1817
Hampshire, England
Mary Cooper
1741
Norwich, Norfolk, England
Samuel Cooper
17091785
Norwich, Norfolk, England
Mary Lovick
17131784
Norwich, Norfolk England
Robert Palmer
17431802
Octagon Chapel Norwich Christening,,Norfolk,England
back to McCormack dna matches to me
R.Y. Young's ........America
Adams ...............America
Seed ...........matches Wharton's Lovell's Jeffery's Bailey Camp Gallego Prestwich Allens Buckland Smith Anderson Parish and many more
T.C. ...........matches Boswell Young Stanley Wharton Jeffery Lee Smith Gallego Sharp
Young ..........America matches Lovell's Boswells and many more
Young .........America India dna
Most matches will show dna that traces the journey of the Gipsy's through many country's, I have seen the Young's go as high as the 20% range just in the Indian dna alone, in quite a few names sometime this South Asian dna shows up other times not, evan when this happends as an example say between two Boswell Family's they still hold the same dna matches connecting other Family's through shared dna yet one may show Turkey or Indian Ethnicity yet the other solid British or there abouts, the dna is strong yet the Ethnicity routes are not shown as in others yet they both inter link between all the other old names like Stanley and such
I dna match to this man his name is Potter from the South
On Potters Family tree Cinnamentia Cooper weds Frederick Mathews, seeing how the Mathews are related to all your Family names I just looked for something that connected us all, I am dna connected to several Coopers in England and America they come in other clusters that then interlink between other Gipsy Family's, think of a big circle, then place yourself at the centre of this place, well from this circle that is made up of many Family's well several of these Family's join you in the centre and make an inner circle, this is a cluster of inter related dna matches, then they leave and others from the outer circle then join you and the inner cluster restarts, sometimes only a few join other times many, yet when they all go back to the outer circle they spin around you, you are the eppy centre of your own universe, this will be replicated by everyone, this Potter man I am matching to is also dna related to many of the very old Romany Gipsy names that have been known throughout Britain, it may soley be from his connection through dna to the Cooper Family, the same applys to everyone, i could hold dna that derives it origin from a single Gipsy Family or several, that then inturn are inter connected to others, in the future more truth will be revealed
Frederick Matthews
1863
Cinnamentia Sinamentey Cinderella Limmenta (Senna) Cooper
18651943 Epsom Surrey
Uriah Spicer Cooper
18151882 Blackheath Kent
Margaret Rosalinda (Rosa) Bishop
18501932
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Hello again ,we messaged some time ago ,i,m Elliott Smith Wiltsher butler deadman on my dads line ..I have done a dna test 2 in fact one with 237me and one with Ancestry ,i also uploaded my info to GEDmatch ...would be interesting to compare and see if we share dna ...my gedmatch number is m123704 ...if you are interested in comparing ...i,m janey Smith on Ancestry and 23&me ...regards ,,Janey Smith
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Helo Jane
How are you, in good health i hope, that's a fine name you have, i am not in bad health myself to be truthful and its been none stop raining here these past days, do you live in Canada, on Ancestry they say i am related to a Lee from there but this Lee is from Europe and has massive Romany dna yet i am the British way dna yet Ancestry say i relate to this Lee Lady yet she has no British way dna and She was born with a forine name so maybe She married a Lee from Canada who maybe came from Britain before Canada, She herself must of moved to Canada from Europe yet we are both down as long Cousins, i have a few long Gipsy Cousins who are from Europe who have no British dna yet i still match to them, on Ancestry it says me and Janey Smith are long Cousins this below is who we both match to through shared dna Cousin Matches
below dna Cousins first to sixth Cousin range that me and Janey Smith relate to, old distant matches do not show up but read futher below this list to find a way of finding answers
Holmes = big India dna equal to the Young's
S.S. from the Buckland
Davies..... I think there is a connection to Davidson and Davis who i also am related to through dna
and like this Davies match we all share dna with many other Gipsy Family's
R.Y. Young's
riding = real name Lee = Price Lee Hearne Mochan Edwards
Gray = Smiths close links
Boswell = America = many known names
Jane i think there is a connection between my dna and the Davies Davidson and Davis Families that intwine with the Smiths, there are Prices to, i am related to a few of them also, i am not sure how yet but the Locks come into the story and my closer Cousins the Holmes as in amounts of dna, the Stevens Stephens and names like that are Cousins to me to, anyway i will try to write back another day with what i find, don't forget they as Ancestry only show you your shared dna with your match from 4th to 6th Cousin upwards to the first Cousin range, the way i get over this is to start looking at the distant Cousins that may be of the Gipsy's then you click on their name and then click on shared dna Cousin links, in this way you beat the system all of the nearer dna matcher's to your distand Cousin will come up, the older ones not but by looking at the older links you find hidden answers instead of just looking for higher amounts of dna in closer Cousins
I have not been on Gedmatch, or done a halogroup match, i would like to but have not found out yet how to do such things, i think all Cousins are Cousins, from what i have been trying to learn by myself well they say Family is someone born in the same timescale as yourself and who you know through Family living, i have read 1st and second Cousins are your Family as in living now, i think maybe after that a person could be extended Family but i have no clue on this and to me if i like someone in my Family i like them, i think Gedmatch may show actually links to Family trees but i am not sure on this, the halogroup is like the footprints in old river beds left by the dinosaurs many years ago, the dinosaurs are gone but they left a footprint that now though empty is a strong statement of fact that they were once there, the Ethnicity is like the rings inside a tree you may travel backwards by reading and counting the rings some yeares they may have been a drought and so the ring is thin then in good yeares the ring fat and plentyfull these rings are like Country's that the Gipsy's travelled through, you must realise there are many ways of counting and learning, for me i think the answer to who you belong to is in your dna in this day like what i find on Ancestry, for from when you was born you will of been bread to certain types of all your Ancestors, my pal had a GosHawk and it imprinted with him, everyone is made up of several dna strains halo groups and Ethnicity estimates you are much more than just a single thing, some people in this day for want of a identity navigate down a narrow path, far better to climb the mountain to see all routes that lead to a true answer, as in how you became you, i think inside everyone knows from being young who they imprinted with, i also know from reading that many go on and join others in groups, i do realise good people will join groups in an honest way, we are all hotwired to tribialize howself, its a way of protection, what happens tho is the tribe gets smaller and smaller as definitions and rules change a sort of polarisation comes into a state of being, in the end the tribe turns evan on itself as it spins ever inwards on the road that leads to a town called destruction, better the person with an open mind who looks outwards for the answers that lay within, all i wish for is to learn and share, i wish to be truthfull and honest and also respectful to all the long dead, i respect my Fathers line of Ancestry and proud as proud could be of him and his People yet for good or bad it was the way of my Mothers Ancestry that made me the person of this day, now who were they, can a halogroup or Ethnicity or maybe shedloads of shared Gipsy Family dna define a person such as me
michael
PS..... hows Marona shes from Canada to, She is your relative i see
lots of love from michael xxx
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great to hear from you ,yes i,m in Canada moved here 30 years ago from leicestershire ,I live near marona and we are good friends .. we found we are 4th cousins ,i have no idea where we connect ,but could be Prices ...I,m Romany both sides of my family ..Smith Gray Wiltsher Deadman Elliott Butler Boswell on my dads side and Burnside Wilson Rhodes sowden Stewart on my mams side .. You hav to download your dna file from Ancestry and upload it to gedmatch ...there is a youtube vidio shows how ,but to be honest i got my son to do it for me ! i,m not to clever with the technical things ...take care reagrds ...janey...
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Saturday 17 October 1840
Wilts and Gloucestershire Standard
Gloucestershire
William Deadman, for twenty one days. for willfully damaging the underwood
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Saturday 04 October 1856
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
On the 30th ult, of small pox, aged 25, Sarah Deadman. Deceased, a gipsy, had only been married three months.
Saturday 24 March 1860
Walsall Free Press and General Advertiser
Staffordshire
..were charged with having assaulted William Foden, hawker, of Cheadle. Mr Ebsworth, who appeared for the prosecution, after stating the circumstances of the case, called the complainant, from whose evidence it appeared that on the 14th inst
.a hawker, on his way from Wolverhampton called, in company with a person named Deadman, at a beerhouse in Little Bloxwich. While there, the defendants came and threw down a piece of bacon, which in accordance with their instructions was fried. Handcox requested complainant to have a piece of bacon. Smith, however, declared complainant should not have any and took off his coat and wished to fight complainant,
came up to complainant, who was standing at the head of his mule, and struck him a blow in in the face, which knocked him down, and was then kicked by both of the defendants till he was insensible
.. Wilkinson called a witness named Roland Salmon, who fully corroborated Mr. Wilkinson's statement, and added that Foden was the first to striphe pulling off his flannel. Smith then took off his jacket, and they had a round, which was terminated Foden tripping up Smith, who fell to the floor. Deadman then seized a whip-stock, and struck Hancox with it. He (Deadman) then said he would fight Hancox, and would fight Smith. cross-examination witness said he was on the ground, and Hancox kicking him, but witness never interfered either to save the complainant, or assist him up
.. Henry Rowley was called, but his evidence only related to a conversation that took place between witness and complainant, in the Swan Inn, on the night of the assault. After hearing the evidence on both sides, the Bench sentenced the defendants to pay a fine of £3 and costs, which, in both cases amounted to 17s. 6d., or in default to imprisoned for twenty-one days.
Saturday 21 September 1861
Staffordshire Advertiser
Staffordshire
John Green, butcher, was charged with stealing a horse, the property of Darius Deadman. on Saturday last. The case was remanded to procure the attendance of witness, the defendant being admitted to bail.
Tuesday 06 February 1877
Birmingham Daily Post
Warwickshire
DISTRICT NEWS
Darius Deadman, a dealer, who had offered it for sale at Wolverhampton, where Mr. Mills saw it, and recovered possession. The prisoners ...
Saturday 10 February 1877
Walsall Observer, and South Staffordshire Chronicle
Staffordshire
John William Smith
. of Hednesford, were charged with stealing a pony,the property of Henry Mills, from a field at the bottom of .... police.George Norton Canes, hawker, deposed that prisoners and another man went to him on the 29th january, and asked him to buy the pony. He refused, and they went away towards Hednesford, where they said they lived.Darius Deadman, father of the last .....
Saturday 06 October 1877
Tamworth Herald
Staffordshire
Disorderly. Ellen Dedman was charged with being drunk and disorderly in George Street, the previous evening. Defendant was found by P.C. Murphy about ...
Wednesday 18 June 1879
Coventry Times
Warwickshire
..and William Dedman, of Walsall, hawker, were charged with obscene language in Paradise-street, on the preceding day
.. he and the other swapped horses, and there was a bit of a misunderstanding
...
Wednesday 19 November 1879
Shields Daily Gazette
Durham
SOUTH SHIELDS POLICE COURT
CAUTION TO HAWKERS. Martha Dedman, hawker, for hawking without having her pedlar's certificate endorset for the borough.South Shields, was fined 2s ...
Saturday 31 July 1880
Tamworth Herald
Staffordshire
BOROUGH POLICE COURT
WEDNESDAY. Before W. Lucy, Esq. The Highway Act. Darius Deadman, hawker, Walsall, charged in custody with encamping on the highway at Hogshill, on the 28th inst., was cautioned and set at liberty.
Saturday 30 September 1882
Worcester Journal
Worcestershire
BROMSGROVE. Gipsy's Funeral. Deriss Dedman, a gipsy hawker, who died in his van at Town End Field, last week, was buried in the Cemetery on Saturday afternoon . In consequence ef exaggerated rumours it was anticipated there would have been something extraordinary in the in the funeral, and consequently there was a large crowd in the street to see the procession and a mob in the Cemetery, where the children (and some of the adults) ran aboat and trampled over the graves, as usual when their cariosity is excited; but there was really nothing in the ceremony to gratify that curiosity.
Wednesday 04 April 1883
Eddowes's Journal, and General Advertiser for Shropshire, and the Principality of Wales
Shropshire
Straying Horses. William Dedman, a licensed lawker, was summoned for allowing five horses to stray on the highroad near to Ash Parra, on the night of the 22nd March. Defendant was fined 8s. and 13s. costs. Mrs. Dedman thanked the Bench, and at once paid.
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Saturday 09 August 1884
Worcestershire Chronicle
Worcestershire
COUNTY POLICE. Monday.Before the Rev. C. J. Sale. William Deadman, travelling hawker,charged for being drunk on the highway
Friday 05 June 1885
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
DISTRICT INTELLIGENCE
Cruelty to Horses.William Deadman. horse dealer and hawker, was summoned for cruelty horse on the 13th January.Mr. Jones, inspector of the R.S.P.C.A., said that on the day in question the defendant
..
Friday 10 June 1887
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
WHITTINGTON. Game Trespass. At the Brownhills Petty Sessions on Wednesday, Wm. Deadman and Solomon Jones, labourers, were charged with treepassing on land belonging to Colonel R. Levett in search of game.James Bell, gamekeeper to Colonel Levett, stated .....
Friday 14 June 1889
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
ASSES ASTRAY. William Deadman, hawker, no fixed abote, was summoned for allowing four asses to stray the highway on May 29th.Defendant did not appear. ...
Friday 18 October 1889
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
WEDNESDAY.Before C. H. COPE, George Dedman (29), licensed hawker, of no fixed abode, was brought up in custody charged with stealing two florins from the person of Charles Johnson. at Fazeley races, the previous
....
Friday 22 November 1889
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
CANNOCK PETTY SESSIONS
.ln answer to the charge that state that Godwin, who did not appear in Court, struck him first and caused the disturbance.Deadman was ordered to pay 4s 9d inclusive of costs, and a warrant for Godwin's apprehension was issued
Friday 17 October 1890
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
LICHFIELD CITY POLICE
Ryder Deadman, hawker, was charged with assaulting Isabella Bliss, domestic servant, on October 10th. -Mr. G. Ashmall, solicitor, Lichfield
Friday 29 September 1893
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
DISTRICT NEWS
CRUELTY to Pony.At the Petty Sessions on Monday, before Fox, Esq. and other justices, James Deadman, having no fixed home, was summoned for furiously driving a horse and cart at Rugeley, on August 3rd, and also with cruelty
....
Saturday 23 September 1893
Cannock Chase Courier
Staffordshire
FURIOUS DRIVING'. Joseph Deadman was summoned for furious driving on the 12th of September, on the ;over Hednesford Road, leading from Chadsmoor to the Cross Keys, as stated by P S Banem, and he was fined 2/6 and 7/6 costs.
Friday 08 March 1895
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
DISTRICT NEWS
FIVE WAYS. Bad Language.At the Cannock Petty Sessions on Monday, William Woodman, Benjamin Deadman, and Selina Woodman, travelling hawkers and horse dealers, were charged with using bad language at Five Ways, on the27th ............
Wednesday 15 July 1896
Uttoxeter Advertiser and Ashbourne Times
Staffordshire
PETTY SESSIONS. WEDNESDAY
Darius Deadman, hawker, of Walsall, was summoned for not having his name and address inscribed on his dog's collar. Inspector Gilbride stated the facts, and defendant was ordered to pay 5s 6d.
Friday 16 October 1896
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
DISTRICT NEWS
George Deadman, hawker, no fixed residence, fined and 7costs
Saturday 16 January 1897
Walsall Advertiser
Staffordshire
WALSALL WOOD
A Deadmans Offence. At the same Court. Joseph Deadman, hawker, Walsall Wood, was charged with having allowed his horse to stray on the Lichfield Road on the 2nd inst.Police-constable 242 (Bailey) gave evidence. and defendant, who said the horse had broken into the field, was ordered to pay 7s. 6d. costs.
Saturday 16 January 1897
Walsall Advertiser
Staffordshire
WALSALL WOOD
A Deadmans Offence. At the same Court. Joseph Deadman, hawker, Walsall Wood, was charged with having allowed his horse to stray on the Lichfield Road on
.....
Friday 26 February 1897
South Wales Echo
Glamorgan
At the Nuneaton Petty Sessions yesterday Wm. Dedman, a travelling hawker, was fined for stealing a pony and harness. The complainant, a. Mrs Mann. stated that on Wednesday Dedman visited her house and asked about a pony which he heard she
.....
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Monday 26 April 1897
South Wales Echo
Glamorgan Wales
GIPSY FUNERAL. The remains of Darius Deadman (62), head of the old and well-known tribe of gipsies bearing his name, were interred in the Fazeley village churchyard yesterday afternoon, in the presence of a large assemblage. Deceased, who belonged to Walsall, had, like his predecessors, attended the principal horse fairs in the Midlands for the last forty years. The coffin was removed from the caravan in which the gipsy died last Wednesday, and closed in the open field in the presence of the whole tribe, amid general sobbing. About thirty relatives, all gipsies, walked behind the hearse in procession, and members of other gipsy tribes, attired in the peculiar dress which distinguishes them, were also present. The floral tributes were numerous, The Deadman tribe of gipsies is said to be the oldest and most numerous of any which travel the midland counties.
Saturday 10 June 1899
Cannock Chase Courier
Staffordshire
STRAYING HORSES. James Deadman was summoned for allowing fives to stray on the highway, in Uxbridge street. Defender did not appear.
Saturday 16 September 1899
Cannock Chase Courier
Staffordshire
Georgina Deadman pleaded guilty to rising obscene language on the Watling Street Road
..
Saturday 10 June 1899
Cannock Chase Courier
Staffordshire
STRAYING HORSES. James Deadman was summoned for allowing fives to stray on the highway, in Uxbridge street. Defender did not appear.
Saturday 16 September 1899
Cannock Chase Courier
Staffordshire
Georgina Deadman pleaded guilty to rising obscene language on the Watling Street Road
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Friday 06 July 1900
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
DISTRICT NEWS
At the Cannock Police Court, on Monday James Deadman, of Hednesford, was charged with being drunk in charge of a horse and trap.P.C. Jeffreys stated that on the 21st ult. at 11-15.....
Saturday 19 October 1901
Tamworth Herald
Staffordshire
TAMWORTH COUNTY POLICE: MONDAY. Before the Mayor of Tamworth (Aid. W. Tempest). Drunk on the Highway.William Deadman, horse dealer, Walsall, was summoned for being drunk on the highway, at Hopwas, on July 27. Defendant, who pleaded guilty
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Friday 07 June 1901
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
DISTRICT NEWS
... Elmore Lane.P.C.'s Johnson, Elwell, and Lake proved the case, and the prissoner was fined and costs, or 14 days. James Deadman was charged with resisting the police on Tuesday night, he having endeavoured to prevent the apprehension of the previous prisoner ...
Friday 05 September 1902
Shrewsbury Chronicle
Shropshire
ALLEGED ASSAULT. John Burrough and George Deadman. general dealers. Wellington, were charged with assaulting Ellis Evans, towken Wellington
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Friday 30 October 1903
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
James Deadman, Rugeley, horse slaughterer, was charged with ill-treating a horse by causing to travel whilst in an unfit state, at Whittington ...
Saturday 06 August 1904
Walsall Advertiser
Staffordshire
WALSALL WOOD. No Light. William Deadman. of Shire Oak. Walsall Wood, was summoned on Wednesday before the magistrates (Messrs W. F. Clarke, E. Wilkes, and J. F. Crump), for driving without light on the 17th ult.,and be was ordered to pay the...
Friday 09 June 1905
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
RUGELEY PETTY SESSIONS
Straying Horses James Deadman, travelling hawker, who did not appear, was charged with allowing three horses to stray on the road in the parish of Mavesyn Ridware on the 27th May. P.C. Cope gave evidence as to the straying of six horses, which were running loose on the road about noon on the date mentioned. There were two vans on the road, and a boy in charge of one van told witness that the horses belonged to his father, named Deadman. Witness afterwards saw Deadman, who admitted that three of the horses belonged to him. Fined 7s. 6d. and costs, or 10 days. More Hawkers in Trouble.Sidney Smith, another travelling hawker, was charged with allowing a van, belonging to him, to be used on the highway at Mavesyn Ridware the 27th May, without having his name painted thereon P.C. Cope proved the case, and said that defendant's wife, on being served with the summons, stated that though the van was theirs they had not had it in their possession many days.Defendant was fined 2s. 6d. and costs, or seven days.
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Wednesday 18 July 1906
Western Times
Devon
DEFERRED CHRISTENING. Charge of Fraud by Gipsies. Sarah Stanley, Bella Deadman, and Maud Stanley, hawkers, were charged with obtaining
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Friday 20 July 1906
Western Times
Devon
TWIN BABIES. Charge of Fraud by Gipsies at Buckfastleigh. Totnes County Petty Sessions Tuesday, before Mr. R. H. Watson (in the chair), and Major G. M. Conran, Sarah Stanley, Bella Deadman, and Maud Stanley, hawkers, were charged with obtaining by false ...
Saturday 28 July 1906
Cannock Chase Courier
Staffordshire
THE FRACAS AT LONEY GREEN. AMOS Deadman and David Evans were charged with being guilty of disorderly behaviour at Loney Green.
..and Deadman, Evans and Sutton got out
.Deadman ran at Evans and struck him with a whipstock Sutton also threatened the driver of a Brewers van who drove of. They then fell into the trap. but fought with whipstocks. Deadman drove off in the direction of Chedyn Hay leaving Evans on the road. Sutton, however returned and looked at Evans who was semi conscious and then went away. Deadman who saluted the Bench very frequently said he was very sorry. it was the first time in his life that he had been had up. Brans said he simply stood up in self defence. They offered to fight him. Officer Smith said he had bad commplaints to the effect that there was a disgraceful row on the ocassion. Evans said he wanted to buy a pony and trap. The Clerk told him that if he had kept sober there would not have been trouble. Evans added that be had to pay .5s for the doctor and he had to convey him home, and he had lost several days work. The Bench said it appeared that Evans had been very severely punished. Deadman was fined £1 including oasts.
Friday 05 April 1907
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
RUGELEY PETTY SESSIONS
William Deadman, the father of a child named Martha Deadman, was fined 5s. and 4s. 6d. costs, and warned that he must educate his child, which....
Saturday 04 May 1907
Sussex Agricultural Express
Sussex
LIVING ON THE HIGHWAY, Samuel Deadman, of the gipsy fraternity was summoned for pitching a tent and making a fire on the highway at Salehurst, on March 28th.A fine of 10s ., with 6s. costs, was imposed, or seven days' in default.
Friday 14 June 1907
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
CANNOCK PETTY SESSIONS
An order was made. George Deadman, hawker, Norton Canes, for the maintenance of his mother, at present chargeable to the Cannock Workhouse.
Friday 13 September 1907
Coventry Evening Telegraph
Warwickshire
ALLEGED THEYT BY TRICK.
Before the County Magistrates at Coventry today, Barbara Winter and Elise Deadman, gipsy hawkers, of no fixed abode, were charged with stealing by means of a trick, at Folesbill on the 7th of September, 6s. in money, belonging to John Constantine Mee, landlord of the Bird-in-Hand Inn, Foleshill. Mr. B. R. Masser was for the defence, and Mr. J. F . Bales watched the case on behalf of Mr. Mee... Mary Ann Mee stated that on the 7th the prisoners called in the afternoon at her husband's house. They had a rug with them which they said was 16 square yards. This they asked her to buy, but she refused several times. Eventually the prisoners showed her a roll of oil-cloth saying, witness could have it for fee. Witness bought it and the prisoners ordered two more whiskeys. These they drank off quickly and were about to hurry off when witness, after examining the oil-cloth, discovered that there was not the amount there that prisoners had represented there and she stopped them. Lena Whitmore, of Foleshill said that on the day in question she saw the prisoners, who offered her some linoleum for 6s. She bought it. In reply to Mr. Masser, witness said she was perfectly satisfied with her bargain. She considered that she had got value for her money. Sergeant Booton spoke to arresting the prisoner Deadman, who at first denied that she had been to the Bird-in-Hand at all, but said it was the other woman who sold the oil-cloth. Later he arrested the prisoner Winter near Longford. When charged at the Police Station Winter said, I don't see how you can say I stole it when she paid me for it. She added that she was very sorry, as it was the first time in her life she had done such a thing. Deadman when charged said I can't think what made her do it. In reply to Mr. Masser witness said that although the prisoners had been hawking in the neighbour hood for a number of years, there had been no complaints against them. He added that both women, although not drunk, were under the influence of drink. For the defence, Mr. Masser said the Bench must be satisfied that there had been a distinct false pretence made. He contended that there was no such false pretence and therefore there was no case against the prisoners. Evidence was given that the women had never bean in trouble before. The Chairman said the Bench were of the opinion that there had been a false pretence, but taking into consideration their previous good character and also the fact that if a conviction were registered against them it would effectually stop them following their trade as licensed hawkers, they had decided simply to bind both the accused over to come up for judgment when called upon.
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Friday 26 June 1908
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
LICHFIELD CITY POLICE
... four o'clock on Friday, June 10th. ,he went with Dedman to Freeford canal bridge. He had seen the two witnesses, Scarratt and Carter, in Lichfield. Near to Scarratt's van were two ponies, one of which Dedman identified as Mrs. Weir's. On Tuesday, the 16th ...
Friday 27 November 1908
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
CANNOCK PETTY SESSIONS
George Deadman, hawker, Hednesford, and his wife Sarah Deadman, fined ls. sd. and 10s. costs, and the wife ls. 6d. and 8s. 6d. costs. ...
Friday 18 June 1909
Stamford Mercury
Lincolnshire
ISLE OF ELY POLICE. Saturday.Before Mr. J. C. Jones in the chair j Mr. H Farrow, and Mr. H. Howard. Roy Deadman. hawker, Battersea, for three mares found straying at Leverington, was fined 15s. including costs. Defendant did not appear.
Friday 26 November 1909
Nuneaton Observer
Warwickshire
John Dedman, hawker, Walsall, was summoned for not having control over a horse and cart in Garrett Street, on November 20th. Defendant pleaded guilty, and Sergeant Evans said the horse and cart were left unattended
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Saturday 16 December 1911
Walsall Observer, and South Staffordshire Chronicle
Staffordshire
Dimes Deadman hawker, of Heath Hayes, Cannock. Charged for being drunk in charge of a horse on The Bridge on Wednesday
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Saturday 03 February 1912
Cannock Chase Courier
Staffordshire
NOT FOND OF NAME
William Deadman was summoned
. his Vehicle was without a light at 8.16 on 12th. The offence was admitted and his excuse tendered was that the pony would not travel with a light. His worship sugested that if it was an animal like that he
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Thursday 16 May 1912
Ross Gazette
Herefordshire
SHOWMAN AND HIS HORSES.
Richard Dedman, a travelling Showman, was summoned for allowing four horses to stray on the highway in the parish of Brampton Abbotts, on May 3rd. Defendant did not appear. P.C. Francis said he saw four horses along the side of the road. They were near the Black Rouse, in the parish of Brampton Abbotts. A man was some 50 to I00 yards away from the horses. When he asked the man if they were his. he said, No
. On making inquiries. he found the horses were the Property of a showman named Dedman. in the presence of the Superintendent the defendant admitted that they were his horses. Severn complaints had been made from time to time about horses being allowed to stray in this manner. The Chairman said defendant would hare to pay a penalty
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Friday 06 December 1912
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
DISTRICT NEWS
CANNOCK. A Gipsy of the Chase The funeral took place on Tuesday afternoon, at Cannock Cemetery, of Ellen Deadman, who during the eighty years her life had made herself notable among the gipsies of Cannock Chase. She was recognised as the best judge of horseflesh, in the district and many are the stories told of her abilities in this direction. For some years she and her husband and family lived in caravans on the Hednesford. and it is stated that in those days she was a pugilist of mean talent
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Friday 17 July 1914
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
RUGELEY POLICE COURT
... that, and followed him and reported the matter to a constable. Before he left, however, the defendant, who gave the name of Benjamin Deadman, gave the wife of the landlord sixpence payment of the broken earthenware.The defendant said that when the Witness tried ...
Friday 20 November 1914
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
CANNOCK PETTY SESSIONS
... a sledge-hammer and shouted that would put complainant to sleep with it, but his wife prevented him from using it.James Deadman, Jack Rolls, and Lena Gorton gave corroborative evidence. Gorton was fined 20s. and costs (£1 35.), and the cross-summons ...
Saturday 08 May 1915
Tamworth Herald
Staffordshire
PETTY SESSIONS REPORTS
.Deadman, hawker, Fazeley, was summoned for driving a trap in Lichfield street, Fazeley. at 9-25 p.m., on April 29, without any lights ...
Saturday 04 September 1915
Birmingham Daily Post
Warwickshire
FEMALE TRAM CONDUCTOR ASSAULTED. Joseph Deadman and Samuel Deadman, travelling hawkers, Shire Oak, Walsall Wood, were summoned at Walsall yesterday for assaulting Beatrice Lawrence, a train conductor in the employ of the Corporation. Evidence was given
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Friday 28 July 1916
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
CANNOCK PETTY SESSIONS
Drunk and Disorderly.For being drunk and disorderly. Eliza Deadman van dweller, and Alfred Hall, Cheslvn Hay, were each ordered to pay 2s. ; and Thomas Brookes, miner, of ...
Saturday 15 April 1916
Sheffield Daily Telegraph
Yorkshire
CLEVER POACHING. A poaching expedition by four hawkers in the vicinity of Chatsworth Sunday had a sequel at Bakewell, when Thomas Forrest, Matthew William Deadman, and Swales Mack summoned for trespassing in pursuit of game
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Friday 15 June 1917
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
.solid by Davis to Benjamin Deadman for £2O. Deadman sold the mare to Mercer for £32, and the latter sold it, with the trap and harness, to Mr. Burton
....
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Friday 09 March 1923
Midland Counties Tribune
Warwickshire
Indesent Language. Adelaide Deadman (41). hawker, Fair Ground , Leicester-road, Nuneaton, for indesent language in Leicester-rd. on March 2
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Friday 13 May 1927
Midland Counties Tribune
Warwickshire
A COTON SQUABBLE. Row Among Gipsies
Row Among Gipsies. Benjamin Deadman, the Caravan, Coton, summoned Robert Grice, Abbey-street, Nuneaton, for assault, on May 7, and Lottie Grice, the Caravan, Abbey-street, summoned Deadman for assault on the same date. Lucy Deadman the Caravan, Spencer's Field, summoned Joseph Grice, the Caravan, Abbey street, for assault. _ Lottis Grice said they were living in caravans at Coton, when the aleged assault occurred. Deadman was her brother-in-law. Deadman threw a brick at the door of her caravan and also struck her when she came out. Benjamin Deadman said Joseph Grice struck him, and he denied striking Mrs. Grice Herbert Spencer, baker, Bull Coton, said the people occupied my field, and be considered the whole affair a family quarrel. Mrs Deadman swore that Joseph struck her in the eye, but Joseph Grice denied striking a blow.The Bench ordered Benjamin Deadman and Joseph Grice to pay the cost 4s and summond all the parties to be bound over to be of good beahviou.
Friday 06 November 1931
Midland Counties Tribune
Warwickshire
Crutelty to a Pony. Benjamin Deadman, Spencer's Yard, Coton, Nuneaton, was summoned by Percival Cusway, Inspector of the R.S.P.C.A. for cruelty to a pony. Detendant pleaded not guilty
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Friday 03 November 1933
Leicester Evening Mail
Leicestershire
NUNEATON HAWKER ' SUED BY FARMER ORDER FOR RETURN OF PONY AND TRAP Benjamin Deadman, hawker, of Nuneaton. was sued at Nuneaton County Court by Leonard Perkins, farmer, Manor Farm, Exhall
Thursday 17 May 1934
Staffordshire Sentinel
Staffordshire
. when defendants arrived and produced some carpets, which Deadman represented to be genuine Persian carpets. He said that he and the other two defendants were seamen
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Saturday 26 May 1934
Staffordshire Advertiser
Staffordshire
ATTEMPTED FRAUD ON VICAR
Three Men Charged
.Three caravan-dwellers named James Deadman. Adolphus Boswell. and George Jones.
.charged with attempting to obtain by false pretences from the Rev. John
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Saturday 02 June 1934
Staffordshire Advertiser
Staffordshire
SALOP VICAR DEFRAUDED
... said : Thats right. Deadman sat in the car. Believing the men. the Vicar perchased a large carpet and four rugs, giving Boswell a cheque for £l7. The men returned to the Vicarage on May 2, when Boswell repeated his story, Deadman again being seated in ...
Saturday 08 December 1934
Staffordshire Advertiser
Staffordshire
Walton pleaded not guilty to all the charges against him, and said he thought Deadman was capable of driving. They use, the motor for hawking fruit round the town, and had been out Saturday
...
Friday 20 March 1936
Midland Counties Tribune
Warwickshire
Benjamin Deadman, Handled Road, Nuneaton. was summoned for not conforming to a traffic sign in Leicester Road when driving a horse and..
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Thursday 04 March 1937
Dundee Courier
Angus Scotland
FARMER'S BID TO DETAIN RUG-SELLER EVIDENCE ENDS IN FRAUD CHARGES Evidence was concluded yesterday in the rugs fraud charges at Elgin Sheriff Court after two of the five accused had gone into the witness-box. The summing-up will take place to-day, when it is expected the case will conclude. Five menPatrick Lee, alias R. Gray; Thomas Flannigan, alias John Stewart; Robert Allan, Peter Hutchison, and Roy Deadman, alias James Knightare charged with fraudulent sales of carpets. ASKED FOR £60. How he tried to detain a man who was attempting to sell what he described as pure Persian carpets and rugs was told by William John Watt, farmer, Dundurcas, Rothes, when the third day's hearing began yesterday said that when he arrived home in the evening there was a man in the house trying to sell goods. The man said to him whenever he entered the door, Now, Mr Watt, it must be a quick deal, as I must be away. I tried my best to keep things going, as he seemed very agitated. He asked me for £60 for the carpets and rugs which he had in the house, and that moment I heard a sharp knock at the door. I said, ' There is someone at the door.' I was pleased to have something to say. It was not easy to keep up the conversation under the circumstances. The man said, ' That will be my mate,' and went to the door. When it was opened a constable was standing there. The constable said, ' Do you want me?' I said ' Yes.' At this point the man made a bolt, with his head down, past the policeman, who ran after him and caught him. Richard Munro, antique dealer, Elgin, valued the rugs at 20s, and the carpets at about £6 each. They were well sold at £180, he said. POLICE EVIDENCE. Police-Sergeant William Fraser, Inverurie, said that inquiries were being made with regard to frauds, and that several men were wanted for identification. He went to a camping ground and found Robert Allan and David Hutchison, father of accused, Peter Hutchison. He said that Mrs Watt identified Robert Allan and later Flannigan and Lee. Allan had in his possession £60 3s l0d, and Flannigan £32. Inspector W. Stuart, Elgin, said that with Constable Fulton he went to Inverurie, where he charged accused. Flannigan said,'ld not deny it. Sergeant David May, C.I.D., New Scotland Yard, London, and Detective-Sergeant John MacCalman, C.I.D., Glasgow, said they had made investigations, and found that there were no firms known as Morley & Moore and Andres & Co., Ltd. This concluded the case for the Crown. MONEY FOR WREATH. That Robert Allan, one of the accused, had been at his house on Tuesday, February 18, was the evidence given by Henry M'Call, labourer, Westgate Hill Terrace Newcastle, the first witness for the defence! M'Call said that Allan had stayed at his home since November 1935 until October 1936. On February 18 M'Call asked Allan for a loan of 10s to pay for a wreath. He got the 10s from Allan, who also paid his weekly rent of 5s. Peter Hutchison, one of the accused, was described as being 22 years old and the son of a hawker. When were you 22?I do not know. Do you not know your birthday? No. I think it is some time in July. Hutchison said that he went to Dundurcas in his father's car, and with his father's goods. Deadman was just accompanying him. He brought two carpets and six rugs into the house, but no price was mentioned. He described the rugs as Oriental goods, which he valued at £16. When the constable called at the door he bolted. Why he went out it was because he had no pedlar's license. Roy Deadman, the only other accused to go into the witness-box, said he had no interest in Hutchison's deal. When the police came on the scene he ran away because he was not very brave with these fellows. If there was any trouble he was not going to be involved in it..........................
Friday 27 August 1937
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
..was summoned for driving a motor car and drawing a trailer at a speed exceeding thirty miles per hour on July 27th. Roy Deadman, of the same address, was summoned for aiding and abetting. P.c. MacPherson said that Smiths car was pulling a two-wheeled
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Friday 25 February 1938
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
NATURAL LIFE.
I learned more of the natural life during those years on this large farm than from all the books i have read dealing with English bird and animal life. At that time (1870-1860) several well-known families of gipsies (the Lees, the Deadmans and Smiths) annually visited Binn's Farm and others, and they were readily granted permission by the farmers to place their caravans on the verge of the farms. They were strictly honest, and never abused the privileges granted them. i often sat with them round the great stockpot (over the fire of wood) from which appetising odours emanated, watching the men peg and basket making, and mending pots and pans. How vividly the delight of evil doing in our youth lingers in our minds! At the age of nine or ten i have clear recollections of committing the grave crime of fishing in Stowe Pool, with a ha'penny line and hook (and no rod), and oh the pride of landing a halfpounder roach or perch, and thrilling excitement when our look out warned us of the approach of Old Hurst (the water keeper), and our rapid flight with our ill-gotten gains, safe in our dinner bags
.
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Thursday 09 March 1939
Derby Daily Telegraph
Derbyshire
DEFECTIVE TYRE John Deadman, hawker, of 110, Branston-road, Burton, was fined 10s. for using a motor-van with a defective tyre on Burton-road, Bretby
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Friday 14 April 1939
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald
Derbyshire
THE DERBYSHIRE TIMES, FRIDAY, APRIL 14, 1939 OLD JARYE Well-known Hawker Brought To Newbold for Burial.
Attendance From all Parts of England Many travelling hawkers from a wide area came to Chesterfield on Tuesday to pay their last tribute to one their number, Mr. Jarvis Calladine, whose death occurred yesterday Thursday week at Crowle, Lines , at the age of 61 years. Deceased was known throughout the kingdom, and his friends from far and near came to pay respect to his memory. Cars of all descriptions brought them, from a magnificent Rolls-Royce to those of humbler makes. They came from Scotland, Wales. Newcastle. Crewe, Peterborough, Birmingham, London, Swansea, Lichfield. Manchester, Buxton, Nottingham, Doncaster, Mansfield and Stockport, and hundreds of Whittington Moor residents witnessed an impressive scene as they rode in the precession from the Sir Colin Campbell Hotel to the Church of St. John, where the Rev. R. C. Norfor (vicar Barlow) conducted the service.
STREETS THRONGED The streets were thronged with spectators, who have seldom seen a larger funeral. The coffin was almost hidden by a profusion of flowers, and wreaths also adorned the radiators and headlamps of the score or so cars which contained the relatives and friends of one who had returned to his native heath for the last time. The mourners included Mr. Calladine sons and daughters, who, following their fathers late example, travel the country In their caravans trading their wares in town and village. There were also many other relatives, one of whom is Mr. William Calladine the late Mr. Jarvis Calladines brother, better known amongst his fellow van dwellers as The Man with the Brushes, or just Brush. Most, of the mourners rode in their own cars, while few followed in traveller's van, mourners included Mr. Jarvis Calladine, Mr. Charles Calladine. Miss Rose Calladine, Miss Kathleen Calladine. Mr. and Mrs. J. Calladine, Mr. and Mrs. J. Hallam, Mrs. B. Partridge. Mrs. T. Partridge, Mrs. L. Burton, Mr. H. Hallam, Lizzie, Mr. Robert Calladine. Mr. W. Calladine. Mrs. M. Broadhurst. Mr. R. Elliott, Mr. and Mrs. R. Green, Mr. and Mrs. G. Deadman. After the funeral service the mourners had tea at the Colin Campbell Hotel.
Friday 13 February 1942
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
RAID ON GIPSY CAMP £39 In Fines At Derby A total of £39 was reaped in fines at Derby County Police Court to-day as result of a police raid on a gipsy encampment in Alfreton-road, Breadsall, where the papers of nearly 100 persons were examined. Hamilton Forrest had to pay £5 for being a British subject, using a name other than that by which he was ordinarily known immediately before the coming into force of the Defence Regulations, £5 for having in his possession an identity card which did not relate to him, and £5 for falsely representing he was the person to whom the card related. To the second and third of these offences Rabbi Boswell also pleaded guilty, and he likewise was fined £5 for each. John Finney was convicted in £1 for assuming the name Connor Finney after he had come to this country from Eire. Elias Morrison, who failed to enter a change of address in his motor car registration book, was fined £1. All said to be incapable of reading or writing, 12 other persons were each fined £1 for not notifying change of address to national registration officer. They were: Pretories Gaskin, Sam and Martha Douglas, Hughie Maguire, Samuel and Martha Deadman, Horace, Winifred, Nellie, Alfred, Mary, and Leona Smith. All the defendants were legally represented.
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Friday 13 March 1942
The Scotsman
Midlothian Scotland
THE GIPSY MIND . A plea'for the Sheriff to take into consideration the gipsy mind was put forward , by an agent at Stirling Sheriff Court yesterday when he appeared on behalf of Roy Deadman ( 52 ) , general dealer, residing in a caravan at Raploch Farm , Raploch Road, Stirling
Tuesday 17 March 1942
Stirling Observer
Stirlingshire Scotland
HAWKER JAILED BOUGHT STOLEN CLOTH. An illiterate hawker, who was told by Sheriff Burn-Murdoch at Stirling on Thursday that you were clever enough to know that dealing in cloth in these days of coupons is becoming very nearly a black market, for which very severe penalties have recently been imposed, was sent to prison for three months for resetting 98 yards of stolen cloth and 322 yards of cloth lining. Accused was Roy Deadman (52 ), general dealer, residing in a caravan at Raploch Farm, Stirling, and he admitted a previous conviction for fraud and attempted fraud. The fiscal explained that the cloth had been stolen by a Glasgow lorry driver, now serving a sentence of one year for theft. The cloth was valued at £58. and accused bought it for £ll. All but £lO or £l5 worth of the material stolen had been recovered. Mr Donald C. Orr, solicitor, Hamilton, said that Deadman was one of those people whose families had been engaged in dealing for generations. Their lives were spent buying cheap and selling dear. It was difficult, unless one had studied Borrow, to realise the mind of that sort of gipsy class. He had had them as clients for over thirty years, and he thought he knew them. He had pleaded for them over the length and breadth of Scotland, but had ceased to do that unless in special cases. It was because he thought there was a chance of saving accused that he had left the seclusion of his office to make a personal plea for Deadman.
Friday 25 September 1942
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
Old Staffordshire Characters J. W. JACKSON (Continued). If we look into the humbler spheres of life we shall find many interesting characters well worthy of mention. When a boy (seventy years ago) I lived in the country and I well recollect how I looked forward with interest to the anuall visit of the gipsies, who camped near my home for a couple of months at a time. Three families, the Lee's, Smith's and Deadman's were regular visitors, but it is the first named I knew best. Gipsy Lee was a splendid specimen of the true Romanya little over the average height, broad shouldered, deep-chested, strongly built, black - haired, keen - eyed, with deep, broad brow, and a chin which betokened firmness and determination, he was indeed a striking character. He had a very attractive manner, a genial smile, and even temper. I well remember the farmer who gave him permission to stand his van on the wide grime verge, saying to another farmer that he had always found him a thoroughly honest man, and that his word was as good as his bond. Lee was welcombd by all the farmers in the neighbourhood including those from the members of the Congregational Church and the Sunday School.
Thursday 07 December 1944
Derby Daily Telegraph
Derbyshire
200 RELATIVES AT BURIAL OF TWO GIPSIES When two well - known gipsies were buried in Derby this week, more than 200 relatives from all parts of the country came to the funerals. Twelve cars made two journeys to take the mourners to each funeral. Robert Calladine was living at Newark when he died, but his body was brought to Derby to be buried in Nottingham-road Cemetery yesterday, with his wife, who died 17 years ago. Nearly 150 people were at the funeral, and among them were 22 nephews and 26 nieces. The second gipsy, George Deadman (66), lived on ground adjoining the filling station, Alfreton-road, Breadsall. There were nearly 120 relatives at his funeral on Tuesday. He leaves a widow, two daughters and fifteen grandchildren.
LIGHTED CANDLES The old gipsy custom of watching over the bodies with lighted candles from the time of death until burial was observed. The last gipsy funeral to take place in Derby was nearly 12 months ago, when Mr. Deadman's son was killed by a falling tree at Louth, and his body was brought back to Derby for burial.
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Thursday 25 January 1945
Derby Daily Telegraph
Derbyshire
Charged More Than Double For Linoleum Said to have sold for £4 a piece of linoleum for which the controlled price was 35s., Martha Deadman, of the Dennis Filling Station, Alfreton-road, Breadsall, was fined £5 with 4s. costs at Derby yesterday. Mr. C- F. R. Cleaver, for the North Midlands Price Regulation Committee, said that a Mrs. Gunn, of Findernstreet, Derby, saw an advertisement relating to a sale carpets, rugs and linoleum at the sale room at the White Horse Hotel.
OBJECTED TO PRICE
She went there and was asked £4 for a piece linoleum three yards by twoand-a-half yards. She objected to the price, but she paid it after an assistant had told her that it was the that it was the controlled price. Later, Mr. Cleaver went on, Mrs. Gunn saw a similar piece of linoleum in a shop, priced at 355., and that, in fact, was the the maximum permitted price. Mrs. Deadman, when interviewed, said that she ran a small business in carpets and rugs, but this was the first occasion on which she had sold linoleum. She bought some pieces from a hawker, but found that she did not need them and put them in the sale. A later advertisement, however, also referred to linoleum, Mr. Cleaver added.
100 DIFFERENT KINDS
Mr. A. R. Flint, defending, said that Mrs. Deadman bought two pieces of linoleum for £4 each, and she thought she could sell them at the same price. The schedule of controlled prices for linoleum referred to more than100 different kinds, and nobody who was not in the trade could possibly understand it. Mr A. H. Domleo, the chairman said that the Bench considered that Mrs. Deadman did trade in linoleum, and she should have known the correct prices.
Wednesday 16 October 1946
Skegness Standard
Lincolnshire
Thomas Foster, general dealer, of Kegworth. and Samuel Deadman and Thomas Deadman. of Bredsall, Derby, were summoned for trespassing in search of hares at Addlethorpe on July 10th. P.c. Lowe
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Friday 25 March 1949
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
COULD NOT READ OR WRITE
... Penalties totalling more than £25 were at Derby yesterday imposed on Samuel Deadman, of 16 Rugby-street, Derby, who admitted contravening the Price Control regulations relating to carpets. Deadman pleaded Guilty to selling an Axminster carpet, and offering ...
Thursday 18 February 1954
Burton Observer and Chronicle
Staffordshire
THEIR CARAVAN WANTED A WHEEL But it Must be Removed
.can you said Mrs. Deadman. The application of Mr. H. T. Meades, on behalf of Burton Corporation, for the caravan to be removed within seven days, was granted. Told she would have to pay 15s. 6d. court fees, Mrs. Deadman said: I am very sorry: you ........
Saturday 20 September 1958
Rugeley Times
Staffordshire
Horse dealer who became salesman The death occurred on Tuesday of Mr. Roy Deadman. of Alma Dene. Garden Drive, Rugeley. Mr. Deadman, who was 71, was well known in the town. In his younger days he was like his father and grandfather before him, a horse dealer, but he later became a travelling carpet salesman. He travelled all over the country and finally settled in Rageley eight years ago. He leaves a widow, Mrs Elizabeth Deadman, whom he married 48 years ago at Tamworth. two sons and two daughters. He had been ill for several The funeral is at St. Augustlnes Parish Church on Monday afternoon.
Saturday 27 September 1958
Rugeley Times
Staffordshire
100 MOURNERS AT RUG ELEY FUNERAL The funeral of Mr. Roy Deadman which took place at St. Augustine's Church on Monday afternoon was the most numerously attended in Rugeley for a considerable time, there being about 100 family mourners. The cortege included more than 20 cars. The service, conducted by the Vicar. the Rev. H. L. Townshend. included hymns and a short address. The was in a white bricked vault, constructed by Messrs. Charles Hill. of Wednesbury. and the funeral arrangements were by Messrs. Bull and Keatley There were 66 floral tributes. including a five-foot cross of red roses from the widow. which was placed on the coffin. One tribute was in the form of a vacant chair composed of red flowers.
Friday 30 January 1959
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
LOCAL WILLS
Mr. Roy Deadman. of Alma Dene, Garden Drive, Rugeley, who died on September 16 last, left £1,750 gross, £1,600 net value. Probate has been granted to his widow Mrs. Elizabeth Deadman, of the same address. ...
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Saturday 13 January 1962
Rugeley Times
Staffordshire
Scrap dealer had no licence for pick-up truck
A Walsall scrap dealer, whose address was given as rear of Coach and Horses. Abbots Bromley. was fined £2, with £4 3s. costa, at Walsall Magistrates Court on Friday. for having no carriers' licence for his pick-up truck. He is Joseph ....... and he admitted the , offence. Mr. E. Smith, Walsall traffic inspector stated that he saw the man driving a pick-up truck on the Birmingham Road towards ' the town centre, and that there was no licence disc on the window Mr. A. Oliver. traffic inspector, of Burton-on-Trent. stated that when he told ....... that he would be reported for the offence, he replied: I did not realise I had I to have a carrier's licence. My brother told me that so long as I was carrying my own goods I need not have one.' In a letter to the court. defendant said he had not since used the van, but had got the necessary forms and was going to fill them in and get a licence as soon as he had the necessary money.
Saturday 19 June 1965
Rugeley Times
Staffordshire
TARMACADAM SPECIALISTS DRIVES- PATHS - FARMYARDS Also SPRAY and CHIP ESTIMATES FREE J. ....... 2. BARN COTTAGE, OTNERTON, PENKRIDGE, Staffs.
Wednesday 18 February 1987
Derby Daily Telegraph
Derbyshire
Photographs
CARAVANS APPEAL BY GIPSY
... planning permission. Planning consultant Mr Christopher Beresford-Webb, for Mr ......., said
Monday 23 February 1987
Derby Daily Telegraph
Derbyshire
Photographs
A GIPSY's dream of having his own caravan site near his council house could be blocked because the land may be needed for a country park. Objectors have told a planning inquiry that gipsies should not be allowed to set up camp near the site which Derbyshire County Council has earmarked as a country park. Gipsy ....... gave up his travelling life and moved into 4 Forge Row, Ironville, near Alfreton two years ago. And he bought a piece of land nearby to use as a caravan site so his family could visit him. But when planners turned down the idea, Mr ....... carried on regardless. Amber Valley District Council then took enforcement action The decision will be announced at a later date.
...
Monday 20 July 1987
Derby Daily Telegraph
Derbyshire
Photographs
GIPSY LOSES LAND BATTLE
GIPSY ....... who gave up life on the road for the comforts of a council house has lost his fight to set up his own caravan site. Mr Deadman, who bought a plot of land at Kennels Lane, Ironville, because he didn't want to lose touch with his travelling family, has had his hopes dashed by a Government inspector. He wanted his travelling son and daughter to be able to park their caravans on the land when visiting, but Amber Valley District Council rejected his plans and started enforcement action to keep him off. he lodged an appeal but now Department of the Environment
.
Wednesday 02 December 1992
Staffordshire Sentinel
Staffordshire
Photographs
Cut price carpets and super kitchens There is more to Cut Price Carpets than meets the eye. After 15 years building up an enviable reputation in Leek and surrounding areas, proprietor ....... has expanded his extensive carpet showroom to include fitted kitchens and bedrooms. Said ....... nowadays we find our customers are more and more discerning when it comes to value for money and it seemed a natural progression to go from carpets to kitchens and bedrooms....
Cobbles Mr ....... aged 42, who runs a carpet business from Bodkin Court pumped in his own money with further cash provided by the Moorlands Towns Partnership project. The courtyard cobbles were lifted. cleaned and relaid. Ornate 'arts and crafts-style' gales were provided
Royal oaks for Moorlands Queen. A run down corner of Leek has been restored under a major initiative to upgrade the town. For decades Bodkin Court. off Stanley Street, has served as a shortcut between the town centre and Brook Street. But its neglected buildings and uneven stone cobbles made it look scruffy and unattractive. Now the area has been transformed into an elegant Victorian courtyard in a partnership project between businessman Mr ....... and conservation workers Ceremony The finished courtyard was officially reopened with a ribbon-cutting ceremony performed by Leek town Mayor Judith Rider. Mrs Rider said she was delighted with the success of the scheme. She added: I hope it will inspire other property owners to come forward with their own enhancement schemes. The Moorlands Towns Partnership is jointly funded by English Heritage, Staffordshire Moorlands District Council and Leek Town Council. As well as refurbishment projects in Leek town centre, grants have also been provided for a variety of schemes, including improvements to unsympathetic including improvements to unsympathetic shopfronts and repairs to historic buildings. A workman installs one of the bollards and 18th century railings repaired and repainted. The carpet warehouse was fully refurbished, including the installation of a kitchen, new toilets and other features.
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Tuesday 24 January 1905
Leeds Mercury
Yorkshire
BREAKING UP THE HAPPY HOME.
Three hawkers, named Ambrose Burnside, Benjamin Burnside, and Jack Wiltshire, were summond by Mrs. Kate Kirkgate, at the Huddersfield Borough Court yesterdny, for doing malicions damage; It wats started that on the 17th the defendants went to the complainant house, and were not admitted. After threatening to break up the happy home they threw stones through the windows, damaging pots, vases, table, and breaking a paraffin lamp, which set fire to the blinds. The magistrates dismissed the case against Ambrose Burnside, and ordered the other two defendants to pay 28s. each. Wiltshire was also fined 19s., including costs, for having assaulted Mrs.Bottomley.
Hi Jane
I have tried to find your relatives on your Dads side, the Deadmans being the Gipsies you speak of, I hope some of the storys may help you in your research, try and look out for names and locations and names of Public Houses then research these, I will put a few more things on for you then leave it there, I just put on the Wiltshire man with the Burnsides to show you the Wiltshires Wilsher Wilshaw of your Dads side then the Burnsides of your Mothers side, well to show you how everyone knows everyone in all kinds of links through the storys of history and Families.
If some of the storys I may of got wrong as in you do not recognise them well thats my own honest mistake, try and signe up to the British Newspaper Archives if you can, its the best site on the internet and it only costs a few pounds to find millions of records, it is a must for all people, a real game changer, you get three free goes by just signing up.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
I know you may have done this already and evan read everything before its just I wanted to help you just in the chance you may not of seen one or two of the Older Gipsy Deadmans from reading of their lifes they are a great Family indeed.
michael
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Darius and Ellen were my greatgreatgrandparents ,their daughter AnnJane Deadman ,married my greatgrandad Jackie Smith and had my grandad Ben Smith who married Jinnie Elliott ,I do have a sub to the Newspaper archives ,I also have Calladines Brinkley Allen married into the family ,my dads uncles and aununts also have Winters Proctors .thank you for all this info ,i will copy and keep it ...please see some photos ...
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Darius and Ellen were my greatgreatgrandparents ,their daughter AnnJane Deadman ,married my greatgrandad Jackie Smith and had my grandad Ben Smith who married Jinnie Elliott ,I do have a sub to the Newspaper archives ,I also have Calladines Brinkley Allen married into the family ,my dads uncles and aununts also have Winters Proctors .thank you for all this info ,i will copy and keep it ...please see some photos ...
this is AnnJane Deadman and her nephew Dick Smith
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(http://) my greatgrandad ''wicked old Jackie Smith he married AnnJane Deadman ,with children Butty aka Sam and Charity aka Jo ...
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Burnsides ,my greatgranny Hannah Burnside Wilson ,my granny Mary Rhodes Wilson the children ,my mam Janie Wilson and her brothers Jonny and Andra Wilson taken about 1915 ...
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my granny Jinnie Elliott her dad was Fred Elliott and her mam was Emily Smith . Jinnie was my dads mam ..
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my greatgrandad Fred Elliott ,his mam was Lydia Wiltshire married to Thomas Elliot ,Thomas was brother to Riley Elliott who was very well known around Retford and Nottingham ..
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Hi Jane
They are great photos you put up on the previous page, thank you for showing them, thank you very much, the Lady on the first one has the Eyes of the Smiths from my way, Jane Smith said we was long Cousins, she told me this when we was young, she also had them deep ridge eyes, I may be looking at things wrong but I just thought I would tell you.
I was looking on my d.n.a matches and a Lady came up as sharing d.n.a with me, her first name is Thelma she is related to many Gipsies its just I was looking for you to try and find answers to what I am finding out, its probably more for me really but you may learn somethings also, well me and Thelma are long Cousins they say from the olden times she has many of the old Family Gipsy names that are known of, a very Rich history runs through the Gipsy Lady known as Thelma, well from the free bits that she lets me see well there is a Deadman Smith connection on one side of her tree, read this below to try and follow what I say, I was thinking it could be your Relatives, it could be Annie wed to Jack from your photos that you put up on the previous page.
Annie Jane Deadman wed John / Jack Smith their Daughter was Sarah Sally Smith 1888 1941 she wed George Napolian Gray 1755 1939 their Daughter was Amelia Gray 1912 1991 George Napolian Grays Mother and Father were Elias Gray and Amelia Heron all this is on one side of Thelma's Family tree, if you look on the other side of her tree there is a Louisa Butler wed to a Samual Smith who went on to have a Son Samuel Smith 1873 1945 he wed Rhoda Smith 1872 1950 Rhoda's Mam and Dad was Sydney Smith and Fiansey Smith another set of Old Parents stems down from a fighting man by the look of him known as Orlando (Landor) Smith, if you follow this line down to today the Rodgersons who wed to these Smiths who then wed back to the Smiths who come down from the Smiths and Butlers all on Thelma's one line, the latest Rodgerson and Smiths then wed into the latest Thelma's other line Through the Grays right back to Deadman Heron Smiths, it sounds complicated but when your looking at it in a tree format its really quite easy to understand, also if i was reading right on the map on the same Cousin d.n.a to me is names of other Deadmans from the South.
William Deadman
17961851
Baptised : Rodmell, Sussex
Richard Dedman
17581825
Rodmell, Sussex
I just wanted to show you these litle reports below, when i trawl through thousands of reports i find things of interest, i also i find vast amounts of general information, offten about the Gipsy Family's as a whole, offten to i read of the histories of everything by mear chance, when i was looking for your relatives the Deadmans i also read many records that evan though they were unconnected to the research i was doing well i still found they educated me in the histories of life these below are just a few that i found why i was trying my best to help you, i hope you to enjoy researching as much as i do
Thursday 12 July 1917
Cornishman
Cornwall
A GIPSY'S FIRE. Fiance Penfold, of no fixed address, was charged with making a fire within 50 feet of the centre of the Highway at Deadman's Grave, in the parish of Sancreed, 15th June. P.S. Mitchell
Monday 18 May 1789
Reading Mercury
Berkshire
Whereas I Lydia Deadman, wife of James Deadman labourer, of Tadley, did wilfully and maliciously scandalize the said Jon Kimber, basket maker of Tadley aforesaid, on the 16th of April last and several other times prejudice his character, which I the said Lydia Deadman do acknowledge myself to be a lying, false, scandalous and promise never to scandalize the said Jon Kimber, or any his family any more, under the penalty of five pounds.The mark X of Lydia Deadman.
Tuesday 19 November 1839
Morning Post
London
EXTENSIVE EXHXUMAIATION OF HUMAN BONES.-For the last few days much curiosity has been excited in the neighbourhood of Old Brentford in consequence of the discovery of a large quantity of human bones in an extraordinary state of preservation, as was also the hair. The spot, it is said by some of the inhabitants, used formerly to be called Deadmen's Graves, and there is a tradition extant in the town that during the great plague in London a female called Moll Ransom used to drive a cart on which she sat, through the streets, crying Bring out your dead; that she brought down hundreds of bodies, which were interred in heaps in the ground in question Information of the finding of the bones has been forwarded to Mr. Wakley, the coroner, but it is not supposed he will consider it necessary to hold an inquest.
And this one below is of great interest for i never have known of Gipsies named Gentle so then i just chansed on this report below then did a d.n.a direct search and no matches came up, then i did a related match search meening if any of my direct d.n.a matches had a Family named Gentle then this would show up, so i clicked on all my d.n.a matches to see if any had the Gentle Family in their tree and guess who came up, just two, one was you, and the other Thelma from above, how mad is that
Saturday 12 December 1863
Hereford Times
Herefordshire
DISTRICT NEWS
Wednesday.Before the Rev. James Davies. Obstructing the Highway. William Gentle, licensed hawker and owner of one of those large caravans carrying profusion of brushes, brooms, and variety of other articles, was charged
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Thelma is my cousin ,we are in touch ,her greatgran and my grandad were brother and sister ,the photo of Jackie Smith is the dad of Thelmas greatgran Sally Smith who married Napolean Gray Sally and my grandad were brother and sister ,i have many old photos ...i ,m on Ancestry DNA as Janey Smith and a close match with Thelma ..
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Louisa Butler and Samuel are my ancestors through their son I have many photos ,i,m in touch with descendents of Fiance and Sidney aka Sydnal.they ,the brothers were sons of John Smith and Ann Nanny Loveridge . so yes this is my family and my great granny Emily Smith Elliott was down from Sibberena Smith and back to Cain Smith .I have many relatives back in the uk who are still living the life ,most are on there own sites but still Romany ..
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Sally and Polli Gray ...the headstone as now been destroyed in a grave yard clean up ..
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Deadman monuments ..my greatgrannie AnnJane Deadman Smith family ..
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Hi Jane
Thank you again for putting up the photos, thank you for showing them, I like to learn of the past Peoples and show them the greatest respect the Deadmans are indeed a great Gipsy Family I have been lucky to learn of them and will never forget them, you said you are related through Family ties with the Winter Family also, well I found that report that showed they were together in that article I put up a few pages back, now do you remember where Roy Deadman was living at Ruseley, well look who's living there also in the same timescale in the article below, I do not know what you may find of such things, i may have seen things wrong but there must be an answer
Friday 18 April 1958
Lichfield Mercury
Staffordshire
Before the court was Andrew Winters. of no fixed abode, who denied driving the van whilst under the influence of drink and assaulting a policeman. The Magistrates found the case proved, and Winters was ordered to pay £2O with 9s. costs.
Saturday 19 January 1957
Rugeley Times
Staffordshire
Crowd gathered when men fought in the Market Square Two men who were seen by a police-constable fighting in the Market Square........ on Thursday charged with disorderly behaviour. Raymond Jones (23), of 63, Michael's Road, Brereton, and Andrew Winters (3O), of Alma Dene. Garden Drive, Ruseley, admitted the offence.........
This below is the report showing the same address, its maybe a coincidence but its worth looking at.
Saturday 20 September 1958
Rugeley Times
Staffordshire
Horse dealer who became a salesman The death occurred on Tuesday of Mr. Roy Deadman. of Alma Dene. Garden Drive, Rugeley. Mr. Deadman, who was 71, was well known in the town. In his younger days he was like his father and grandfather before him, a horse dealer.
I showed you one of these but by looking for more reports you conbine them all together and a bigger picture comes to be known
Saturday 21 June 1856
Leicestershire Mercury
Leicestershire,
Births, Marriages, and Deaths.
On the 16th inst., at Melton Mowbray, Mr. Doriah Deadman, of the Staffordshire Potteries, to Sarah Smith, of Melton
Saturday 04 October 1856
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
On the 30th ult, of small pox, aged 25, Sarah Deadman. Deceased, a gipsy, had only been married three months.
Thursday 09 October 1856
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
also, on the 30th, aged 25, Sarah, wife of Mr. Doriah Deadman.
I just put these small extracs on for there are many with more information in to read, I just like to learn everything, I think these maybe are the Deadmans we talk about but I could be wrong
Friday 01 February 1952
Staffordshire Advertiser
Staffordshire
CARPETS CARPETS CARPETS GREAT ONE DAY SALE THURSDAY NEXT. FEBRUARY 5th. 10-30 to 4-30 THREE TUNS. GAOLGATE STREET, STAFFORD CARPETS : RUGS : Axminster, Wilton, Belgium, Italian and Velvet Pile Special Offer of 5 Top-grade Indian Carpets, We supply the CHEAPEST CARPETS in the MIDLANDS, so buy today and save pounds tomorrow Some of the Goods are Slighty Soiled and will be at Deadman, London Road. Derby.
Friday 20 March 1953
Ripley and Heanor News and Ilkeston Division Free Press
Derbyshire
CARPETS CARPETS GREAT CLEARANCE SALE At 20 per cent. Reductions
T. and S. Deadman. Rugby Street, Off London Road, Derby. ...
Saturday 27 November 1954
Stapleford & Sandiacre News
Nottinghamshire
CARPETS! CARPETS! SALE OF CARPETS
TO-DAY to save Pounds To-morrow SALE ON SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 27 From 10.30 a.m. to 4.30 p.m., at THE ZION HALL, LONG EATON R DEADMAN, London Road. Derby. Licence No. NI.A7...
Friday 09 September 1955
Ripley and Heanor News and Ilkeston Division Free Press
Derbyshire
CARPETS! GREAT Clearance Sale OF CARPETS, RUGS AND STAIR CARPETS In all makes and sizes. At the METHODIST CHURCH HALL, NOTTINGHAM ROAD, ALFRETON. On FRIDAY, SEPT. 16th, 10 a.tn. to 4 p.m. R. DEADMAN 2, New Park Street, Leicester.
I found a few more reports I hope they maybe of help to you
Wednesday 27 February 1963
Leicester Evening Mail
Leicestershire
Dealer found dead at Markfield A CARAVAN dweller. Mr. William Elliott 49. general dealer. was found hanging dead in a tree at Markfleld yesterday. Mr. Elliott had been missing from his caravan for several hours and when he was found a search for him was in progress. His body was discovered by Mr. James Deadman away fram his caravan............... on land attached to Thrustle Bush Farm
.
Wednesday 02 October 1963
Leicester Evening Mail
Leicestershire
STRUCK SERGEANT AT CRASH SCENE
A MAN WHO INTERFERED
while the police were dealing with a road accident at Coalville .............and eventually struck one of the officers, was fined at Coalville. He is James Deadman 22, a lorry driver, who pleaded guilty to assaulting a policeman in the execution of his duty and also to causing damage to windows in a cell at Coalville police station. In a separate case. Deadman said to live in a caravan
Thany you again for all the photos you put on and the words you have spoken i will try and see if i can find other things that may be of help to you .......from michael x
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thank you for all the info ,and you have solved a mystery for me ,i remember my parents going to a funeral ,my dads cousin ,and that was William Elliott ! i could not remember his name but knew of the sad circumstances .... also my greatgrandad Darious was married for a short time to a Sarah Smith and she died young ,he married again soon after to Ellen Hodgkinson i found the marriage certs for both weddings so that is also great info i,m copying all the info ,thank you again ...
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Hi Jane
I received another distant Cousin match that I have been trying to learn from it looks like their last name is the Montague's (Buckingham Montague) the person who is stated as a long far cousin to me is male and at a first glance a person would think such a name may not be related to the Gipsy's of old, this Montague gives nothing away in their profile that they let you see yet if you click onto who you both share dna with seven names come up, all seven are of the Gipsy's, Ancestry says they are in the fourth cousin Column in a the 4th6th Cousin range at a long shot they say some could go as high as a third cousin to be truthful I do not understand what they are telling me, I think in my own mind cousins related through old connection's may come from a sideways longshot that may be closer than a straight back the line as in how we all think of genealogy, this to may reverse itself, anyway the (Buckingham Montague) is dna related to two Smith Lady's a Clayton a male Pearce a female Crabtree a male Davies and a female Byrne all these seven are stated as dna related to me and they all have many shared match's with me in clusters of several Gipsy names from the past, I do not share a single none Gipsy link with any of these dna matches, through learning this way I know Ancestry are on to a truth for if I look through the many dna links on my Fathers line they are straight from Irelands lands of Green they do not interlink with my cousin dna links from my Mothers side, I do not know how Ancestry know such things but they must be on to something, well these seven dna matches that me and Montague share as many connecting dna Gipsy related dna match links there is not a single crossover to the other clusters like I have found that do not hold a single name or link with the Gipsy's, so Montague is related to the Davies man and I am related to him to yet when I click on his profile he does not give much away unless you write to him, but the man Davies does not hide his dna links that is the same as mine and we now share twenty seven dna cousin matches so you can see there is dna left between us both, we both now share dna of people named Bailey Gray Young Stanley Jeffery and big Jack is back with is massive dna names of old infact all twenty seven same dna links are massive in the names they hold like the great Smiths but back to Montague from the long cousin link and this now is where I am searching for an answer.
In short Montague keeps his powder dry yet his back is not to the wall for I see all our shared dna, one is the person known as Byrne a Lady at that, now she lets me see that she is indeed from the Davies like the Davies above they both share many Gipsy dna links through Family names with me whether this is backways or sideways I do not know, well look at Byrne ancestor's straight down the line solid Davies on both sides theirs Wisdom's on both her Fathers side and her Mothers side and a few Cornelius Davies and evan a Cornelius Stephens who weds cinnamenta smith-18801965 and what about one legged Aaron Smith 17881859, and theirs Locke's to and the Lees, theres many more but what I would like to learn about is why is it stated on Bryn's Family tree that Mizzeley Davis weds Cornelius Jame's Davies and that Mizzeley Mother and Father were Mizzeley Harrison and W.H. Davies.
Now this is the great bit for remember when I said only the links in shared dna show up from the sixth to first in the cousin range as in shared dna, well that's why the older ones hold more clues they may be older and the amount of dna less but all cousins are cousins so now I find a long cousin link in the far range that they call distant right at the end of Ancestry's knowledge in this day they name it as 5th8th Cousin this is someone who must live over a mountain and out of sight, but their voice Carry's through the canyon and I still hear it, now this male far cousin of mine is named Wisdom as in his first name I will not tell you his last name for I do not think you can do that, anyway back to Mizzeley Davis who weds Cornelius Jame's Davies and Mizzeley Mother and Father were Mizzeley Harrison and W.H. Davies on Bryn's tree well now on Wisdom's tree Mizzeley Davis is down as being Mizzley Winter and she comes out of the Winters not the Harrisons or Davies it just says Winter it's the same people yet different names, I am dna related to the Winters to, I try to understand about all theses names Ancestry send me, as in what does it all meen, in real truth, it was easier when my Mother said we were related to the Holmes and the Smiths, and I have received more dna matches linking me to the European Gipsy's that Ancestry say I have dna with, two more popped up that's about five now, the Davies I think are from the South near the Wales way and Wisdom is from Dudley Staffordshire, i have more Davies dna matches to and more Smiths, I do wonder about things, I don't evan have a tree, to be truthful I don't evan know who is who, people have showed me things from the census records but are they accurate, just imagine if the censuses are wrong, it only takes one mistake or falseness and everythings a lie, thank you again for putting up the photos about your relatives, take care.
michael x
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Hi, I have an update on George Oxby Smith and his wives...
George Oxby Smith was born in a tent, Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts on the 13 March 1868. On his birth cert his father is given as John Smith a Labourer and his mother as Mary Smith, Previously Smith.
He was Baptised 18 Mar 1868 Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts. His father is given as John Smith, mother Maria - Gipsies.
As previousley stated in this thread, on the 1891 census he is encamped in Checkley, Cheadle, Staffs aged 24 with Ellen Smith (Clayton) 21, Arthur Smith 24, Mary Ann Smith 24 (our direct ancestor) and her child Francis Smith aged 1.
George Oxby Smith died on 5 Feb 1947 at 4 Keswick Street Sneinton, Nottingham. His death was registered by E Doyle, daughter of 4 Keswick Street. She is Ellen Hetty Smith bn 1 Jul 1920, her mother being Agnes White. Ellen Hetty is now the partner of an Andrew Doyle 1915-1980.
George was buried 11 Feb 1947 Wilford Hill Cem, Nottingham in the same grave as Agnes and their son Albert Henry Smith 1925-1955 (he died in Sidcup, Kent).
Ellen Clayton died on 12 Apr 1912 - I think she died having her last child Sidney Smith, on the 1939 Register Sidney Smith says his date of birth is 21 Apr 1912 - I think he has transposed the numbers. Ellen Clayton was buried on the 15 Apr 1912 in the General Cemetery, Nottingham.
George then marries Agnes White as previously stated in this thread on 27 Jul 1912. On the 1939 register Agnes give her DOB as 5 Nov 1893 - Her death certificate says she was born 29 Nov 1892 in Dundee, Scotland. Agnes died on 5 Nov 1971 in Homewell Walk, Nottingham. Her death was registered by E Elliott, daughter - this is the same Ellen Hetty Smith that registered George's death. She is now the partner of Walter/William? Elliott 1920-1962 son of Everett Elliott 1898-1933 and Betsy Elizabeth Woodward 1901-1967.
After George's death Agnes married Arthur Orpe a Night Watch Man 1894-1966 in 1947.
Agnes was buried on the 11 Nov 1971 with George and their son. No other people are in this grave.
Ellen Clayton
I'm wondering if her parents were
Frederick Clayton bn 1829 Wilshaw, Sutton-in-Ashfield
and
Louisa Clayton bn 1828 Berkswell, Warwickshire died 1909 Staffs.
Newspaper Reports in summary:
Newspaper Article
16 Mar 1909 Offence in Pullman Street, Nottingham
George Smith a Hawker of Sneinton in trouble for stealing a washing line clothes prop in Pullman Street, he promised to behave himself and was let go.
Newspaper Article
28 Jan 1921 Crown and Anchor, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
John Spencer 26, Hawker of 75 Red Lion St and George Jones alias Spencer 21 Hawker of 95 Red Lion St chgd with wilfully wounding George with intent to harm by shooting his son Tom Smith. George was shot in the cheek-both prisoners were wanted by warrant.
Newspaper Article
27 Feb 1926 Living in a van, Hawthorne Street, Nottingham
Got into a fight - he and his sons refused to leave The Travellers Rest - George was fined and Frank and Thomas got prison for assaulting a PC.
Newspaper Article
19 Jan 1929 Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
George was shot in the chin by John Spencer who also tried to shoot George's son Tom Smith.
Sent to prison for beating his wife.
2 Aug 1929 Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
She claimed he had beater and pushed her out of a horse and cart, GS and a son said she fell. Stated that George had 15 children aged 40-17 - 4 with Agnes all under 16. she had left him on 6 previous occasions. George had 81 previous convictions - none of his children showed any sympathy towards Agnes. She was said to be black and blue with bruises. George burst into tears when sentenced.
Newspaper Article
27 Jan 1937 of Walker Street, Nottingham, Nottingham,shire, England
George was Summonds for allowing William Chalk of Walker Street to use his car without insurance - George was fined £3.00.
Newspaper Article
16 Mar 1937 of - 52 Walker Street, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
George was taken drunk to Leanside Police Station. He was found to have £151.18s in his pocket (that is equivalent to £7,600 in todays money) - George left with a caution.
Newspaper Article
24 May 1937 of 52 Walker Street, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
George Smith of 52 Walker Street charged with allowing Sidney Smith, his son to drive George's car unsupervised (while he was a learner with no license).
I'm still trying to work out all of Georges Children: Any suggestions or help would be great... I'm also working on his 2 brother who also lived in Nottingham. I think they have both been mentioned by me before, but am focussing on the now as well. They are:
Thomas Albert Smith 1863-1928
William Smith 1867-1947
Bye for now
Kazi
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Helo Kazi
I do hope you are well and life treating you fine, once again thank you for the time you have gave in researching and sharing the old records and times of the people we are both trying to find and understand in our own way, i do appreciate the times you have wrote regarding research material, i will look into your writing several times and think on such words that you have wrote, i am being honest with you when i say thank you for writing and more people should follow your example, in a good world this would be a natural way, for when people come on to forums like Rootschat and read the writings by such people as yourself well it will give them guidance and confidence to search in a free and open friendly way as your fine self does, well done and i think you are a fine example to everyone in just trying in the way you do, i have listened every time you have wrote and taken everything in, to be truthfull to offten everything seems sometimes like i am spinning in the clouds surrounded by everything, there is at times so many things to think about, i do though look forwards to reading all writings that help me to understand the bigger picture, at times to everything just seems to come together and the true picture starts to appear, i hope you realise i truly am grateful for the times you have wrote about the things that are a great interest to me, thank you again Kazi i will think of you much when i look back on these reactions with members on Rootschat and i will never forget how you gave you own time to help others.
Just on a side note are you related in your Family tree to Hope Booth from the Booth and Sheriff Family's who also are related to the Boylings Claytons Smiths Boss and Boswells and people like the Blewits for one of Hope Booths children are related to me through d.n.a on Ancestry, they say i must share a far of common ancestor from long ago with them Booths it may have began with one of the other names wed with the Booths but in this day me and the Booths related to Hope share old d.n.a if i remember the free bits on the Booths tree Hope Sheriff is before Hope Booth, thank you again for being kind enough to write, the information regarding the Smiths around Nottingham is of great interest to me and i will read your words many times thank you Kazi, take care from michael
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Hi Kazi
I just wanted to say about the Booths to confirm to you what I meant, there are Booths down the South connected to the Coopers who I match to in old d.n.a but I was talking about these Booths below, they are from up my way, I have found you need long arms when researching the Gipsy's of old, long outstretched arms, everyone is connected to everyone, will the truth ever be wrote will the truth ever be found, its all there though, I myself look for answers regarding Family's of old some look for identity some long for such things, some search for an answer in a word that is wrote as name, some go all in and make society's of a kind that a passport of one kind or another is needed to join such an illustrious crew and board the good ship Beagle, I wonder at times what do people think and why do they think that way, then I stop wondering and just go back to wandering in my own thoughts and finding the answers that come freely
Hope Booth 1911-1958 r.i.p who's parents were
Ephraim Booth 18841963 and Matilda Sheriff 1886
Ephraim Booth parents were
Henry Booth 1864 - and Elizabeth Boyling 18641950
Henry Booths parents were
Ephraim Clayton/Booth
18411910 and Diana/Dinah Booth 1836
Elizabeth Boyling
18641950 parents were Absalom Boyling1816 - and Rebecca Booth 18231888
Now back to Hope Booth 1911-1958 Matilda Sheriff 1886
Matilda's parents are
Hope Sheriff 18551934 and Trinity Boyling 1860-1937
Hope Sheriffs parents were
William Sheriff
18121891 and Mary Ann Tracey Boswell 18051897
Aka Tresi Boss descended from Haniel Bosswell Gypsy King 1583
Trinity Boyling 1860-1937 parents
were also Absalom Boyling 1816- and Rebecca Booth 18231888
The person born from Hope Booth 1911-1958 who i d.n.a match to is also descended on the other side of their Family tree to Nellie Smith 1911- down from William then George then Henry 1820-1900 i am not sure if these Smiths are of the Gipsy's for i don't know enough about the bigger picture of such things, there are names like Wildgoose on this side of the tree to that like all the other names go back well into the 1700s these to if they are from the Gipsy's would inter relate through Family connections i have no doubt in that for from my own research in seeing how my many hundreds of matches inter relate over hundreds of years, of course there are dominant lines that are plainly evedent in my own d.n.a that spans most if not all family names in the clusters that appear yet these to will just be apart of the one true line that is the great Gipsy Family of the lands we call home and not forgetting the Americans for I have picked up the descendants of Gipsy's like Frampton Young who I match to in this day from America i can see through d.n.a how i myself match to these Young's from America and then i rematch to their ancestors in England, also in this day so all these long gone American Gipsy's link back to the one big Family, the Booth match in this instance seems to have done a great amount of research, I may have got the odd thing wrong for i have gone over things a few times and still get a date wrong but i think now i have wrote this right but if i have wrote evan a single thing incorrect just put that down to my own ways of being not that good at such things, also we share 21 named d.n.a matches well known names among them the Lovells join this cluster along with the Bucklands Grays Whartons Lees Youngs Smiths and more, so now look at this great web site that i am sure you have already seen constructed by a very passionate researcher who must have done years of looking for the words she as wrote in this link below, a very good easy read and the Booths are mentioned along with the Sheriffs who play a major part in the story of this persons Family, I also have a d.n.a match to a Hodgkin's who shares Gipsy named d.n.a matches also with me, they to are also mentioned in the link below.
https://www.garenewing.co.uk/family/hodgkins.html
https://www.garenewing.co.uk/family/contact.html
Kazi I will write back to you about George Gipsy Smith from Nottingham who's story entwines with the Wilshers, thank you again for helping me in my research i hope i may also be able to help you
michael
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Hi Jane do you remember Ramona your relation from the Prices of Wales yet she as the European Gipsies in her Family, I will not speak of their names for you say you are now both living in Canada, i am sure Ramona wrote to me about ten years back, now I just found I am dna related to a Romona, the Ramona who is my long Cousin may not be the same Romona from Canada, isn't life strange how names come up, the Ramona who is my dna Cousin as much of that Indian dna that i thought the first Romona must have, would you ask Ramona to see if she connects to me through Ancestry
michael
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Rammona is my cousin ,about 3 generations back ,she lives about 15 miles away and we are good friends ..Rammona is Greek and Russian Romany on her dads side ,and Welsh Price on her mams side ,which is were i match with her ,she has a open tree on Ancestry Price tree, what is your Ancestry name ...and i will ask ,..regards Jane..
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Just type ( michael Leahcim) that's my name on Ancestry Jane, i am only on the dna side of things i am not registered in where you can view all family trees my profile name is michael Leahcim i thought you knew, i told you how you was a distant Cousin to me and we have several shared dna matches, i see your profile picture of a painted varda its a bright coloured picture painting, on my profile you will see my photo and that i come from Nottingham, all this time i have been writing to you i thought you already saw my profile and photo, and the Lady Ramona as a photo of herself holding two young children on her knee, i can not say on here her last name for i don't think you can give out full private details but there are three people i match to with the same last name as Ramona and they all have the Indian dna, two are in the Fourth to sixth cousin column Ramona is in the sixth to eight column, it may well be that this Ramona is a different Lady, type in my name Jane and then you will be able to see me and see who we share matches with on my shared matches with you there is the Holmes S.S. Managed by a buckland a Davies a Byrne a R.Y. a Riding a Gray a Boswell all from 1st to sixth cousin all these are full of Gipsy family's the Lady named as Riding is born a Lee from Wales, we match with more but you have to click onto the distant matches name first to find if you share connections with others, i have already wrote about the Davies and Byrne a few posts back and i match to Thelma that's another of your closer cousins, you and Thelma and this Ramona are distant cousins right at the end of Ancestry's knowledge, i hope you find my profile, write back and tell if you do, i also wrote all about myself and dna a few pages back, well i was just also thinking that you said the Rammona with a double m as a open tree that is free to see well this Ramona that i match to as locked her tree and you first have to ask permission to talk to people like that, i do not really go around writing to folks for i think to myself if they wanted to be open minded they would not hide away but that is up to whoever to make that free choice for themselves, i have no written tree that's why no one can see mine for i haven't evan got one and i don't think i ever will
michael
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just looked.. Carly and Thelma are cousins through our grandparents being siblings all down from Jack /john Smith and AnnJane Deadman .I think your ramona is different to mine as her tree is not locked ...I have a family tree that is private because i have some family photos on it ,but i will be delighted to invite you to it ..I had it public then found lots of photos copied to other trees with the wrong info ...i don,t mind sharing at all but felt the need to make it by invite only ...regards Jane [i will spend some time now looking for Ramona ]...
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Hey Jane i just got a mesage from you on Ancestry, how about that then, my first mesage, and it says we both are related to Thelma, but i already new that just imagine i got myself my first mesage, your name came up in lights, Janey Smith what a great name to be the first person to write to me
i will write back soon take care Jane from your pal michael x
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i will write back to you on Ancestry ...
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Thank you Jane for inviting me to join you in your research on Ancestry, i am just looking at how i reply to you, i think it is where it says send, but i dont want to be talking to any one, i was thinking if i write to you it may go to everyone on Ancestry, i will send soon on the send page and see what happens, you have been good by me, i will never forget you, one day i will not write no more, thats just the way of it, but i promise i will never forget you and i will always be your pal
lots of love from me
michael
no need to write back now i will see if i can write to you x
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take care best regards ...Janey ..
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Hi Again,
I have now received the birth certificate of Christopher Smith, son of George Oxby Smith and his wife Agnes White. Christopher was born on the 30 July 1922 at 10 Sussex Street, Nottingham, George's occupation is given as Horse Dealer. The birth was registered by Agnes on the 8 Sep 1922.
I have found one newspaper article on Christopher, then nothing else. I can't find a death that could be his, so have hit a dead end with him.
Newspaper Article
5 Jan 1952
Sandiacre, Derbyshire, England - of 91 Denewood Crescent, Nottingham
Charged with Joseph E Simpson of stealing rugs from outside a shop-Joseph had 15 previous convictions and got 6 months, Christopher had 8 previous convictions and got 3 months. In 1960, Thomas Albert Smith Chrstopher's Brother was living at this address. It is where his mother was living with her 2nd husband Arthur Orpe.
This is the only article I found that I can link to Christopher Smith. Will have to ponder where I go next.
I have checked my tree and as far as I know our tree does not include a Hope Booth, or any of the other names mentioned back on this thread.
Bye again Kazi
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Helo Kazi
I hope you are well and life treating you fine, I have found many records over the past several years as you know regarding the peoples we talk about I must put everything down soon in a datetime format that may be expanded on I see the story keeps evolving and the times of these people are being updated as more information comes to light, this below is another record about George Gipsy Smiths son Christopher Smith
Tuesday 24 February 1948
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Hostel Scene
Because he could not get a bed in the Salvation Army hostel in Aberdeen street, Nottingham. Christopher Smith, of 4, Keswick-street, broke the woodwork and the door and burst the lock, it was stated at the Nottingham Guildhall, to-day. He was fined £3 and £1 costs for damaging the door. John Robert Foster night porter, and Lieut. Nicholls, Salvation Army officer, both said defendant was worse for drink and used obscene language when told there was not a bed available
Aberdeen street is only a stones throw from Keswick street, some of the stories from long ago may seam at times strange to you, they may not either but I would like you to know that this is just the way of it, also Keswick street is right next to all the named places I talk about here in these posts, I was born just down from Keswick street, everything is close as are all the peoples, they would know each other, I will show you some maps another time and explain the area in more detail so that you would be able to understand more in a truer context
Kazi over the times of our writings you have wrote these words below, the date of Georges death stated by yourselves as in 1941 was of interest to me be course it may have proved that George Gipsy Smiths was not the one who attacked Rebecca for if in 1941 George died in the months before Rebecca my grandmother was attacked then it could not possibly be old George Gipsy Smiths known to you as George Oxby Smith born in a tent, Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts on the 13 March 1868. He was Baptised 18 Mar 1868 Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts. His father is given as John Smith, mother Maria - Gipsy's.
So I thought maybe Gipsy George Smith who along with my own Mother also named Rebecca well both of them would say how we was cousins, now what does that mean,
Well they said it was through family ties, this I would hear with my own ears and saw such things stated with my own eyes from the Wilshers and the Smiths, for my own Mother came out of the Wiltshires Wilshaw Wilshers, it could still be anyone of the two George Smiths but you will see in the record soon the said George was living at Keswick street so if old old George Gipsy Smith had a son who was related to us then it was Old Gipsy George Smith who my Mother would often talk of in the fondest of words and the greatest of respect.
So if old old Gipsy George Smith did not die in 1941 then it may well be him who was the one who attacked my Mothers Mother, if it was another George from the same address then it may well have been the younger Old Gipsy George who must be the son of the first George the bull legend of Nottingham known to you as George Oxby Smith, but why would Rebecca have been attacked, this I am still trying to find out, I will write the rest up on the next page but first this below is what you first wrote to me before the updated words in your present knowledge of such matters.
Hi again,
The George Smith in Keswick Street is old George Smith (bn 1865) living there in 1939 (he died in 1941). I would love to know anything you have on his children. Feel free to ask any questions and if I can I will answer them.
.Kazi
GEORGE OXBY SMITH "Gypsy Smith" 1868-1941.
He also used the alias Clayton.
George Oxby Smith was about in 1868 Stanton, Nr Bingham, Nottinghamshire, he was the son of John (Johnny) Smith bn 1833 Tur Langton, Leicestershire s/o Samuel Smith 1791-1864 and Reservoy (Reservoir) Smith 1796-1860, I think they were Uncle and Niece... George's mother was Maria Smith bn Scalford, Leicestershire, d/o Levi Smith bn 1810 and Sophia Smith born 1811-
George's Father Johnny also had another partner at the same time (I believe the "wives" were also sisters) both wives were his 1st cousins.
1871 - He is encamped with his father, his fathers 2 "wives" and all their children in Snenton, Notts.
.Kazi
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Now Kazi see how they have been in Sneinton from the 1870s, the story will continue when I write everything up in the future for there will be more indepth information that I hope you will also be of help with, with the things that you know and find, I may get mixed up with dates and names sometimes so just put me right if I get anything wrong and continue to update the story when knew records appear, so this below is Maria my Gt Grandmother along with my Grandmother Rebecca as you see Gipsy people would come down from Sheffield as that is a place of manys the years of happenings along with and in many places in Yorkshire
Yorkshire 1850
Murderous Affray in Westgate. Three gipsies, named Wm.Wilshaw, sen., Wm. Wilshaw, jun., and John Winter, were charged with an assault and riot, in Westgate, on Monday evening. It appeared from the evidence on Monday evening, they were at the travellers rest, in Westgate, when the prisoners and several other gipsies came into the room. They had been sat there a considerable time apart from the rest of the com- pany, when the elder Wilshaw jumped up and declared he had had his pocket picked by some of the complainants' party. This appeared to have been a preconcerted scheme, for im- mediately the charge was made, one of the gipsies ran and secured the house doors, and put the keys into his pocket, others armed themselves with pokers, tong's, and declared they would have the money from some of those who had been sitting with them. Favell and the others protested that the old man could not have been robbed by them, if he had been robbed at all, as none of them had been near him. The gipsies commenced an attack with their formidable weapons, which some few of the others resisted. The greater part of them, however, endeavoured to escape from the house, and finding all egress from the doors impossible, ran upstairs, pur- sued by the gipsies, and escaped only by jumping from the windows into the street A most desperate fight ensued be- tween those who were left and the gipsies, but at length the former were glad to make their escape by the same means as their companions, several of them with their heads most seriously cut and bleeding The gipsies were thus left in entire possession ot the house. the hole neighbourhood was in a tumult, and several of the local police arrived the gipsies refused to open the door, and they were compelled to effect an entrance by the window. They succeeded in appre- hending the three prisoners, but the remainder of the party effected their escape. The youngest of the prisoners was most severely wounded on the head, and his leg had been very much bitten by a dog. The Magistrates convicted the two Wilshaws in the penalty of 40s. each, and costs, or two months' imprisonment. The fines were paid. The prisoner Winter, who is upwards of 70 years of age, was discharged on paying costs, it appearing that he had not taken any part in the affray.
Yorkshire July 1875
Serious Assault by a Gang of Gipsies. On Monday, Wm. Wilsher, sen., Wm. Wilsher, jun., Ed- ward Wilsher, and James Winter, four gipsies, were charged with a violent assault on James Pears, landlord of the White Swan Inn at Brayton. Mr. Bantoft appeared for the prosecution, and Mr. Wainwright for the defendants. The latter offered to compensate complainant for his injuries, and to pay the costs, but the Bench objected The complainant said on the 28th ult. the men with others came into his house, and the eldest had a glass of ale. They commenced to quarrel, and he told them to go out. Wm. Wilsher, sen., struck him on the lip with the butt end of a whip, cutting it open and knocking his teeth out Wm. Wilsher, jun., and Edward Wilsher struck him on the head and face with the butt ends of their whips. They kicked him till he became insensible, and he had since been under medical treatment. The men were shod with wooden clogs, finished with iron. George Collins, of Burn, said he was returning from the fair at Selby and went into the White Swan for a glass of beer, when he saw the landlord on the floor, and the prisoners kicking him. Witness went towards the group, whereupon they used the butt ends, of their whips about his head. He fought his way through them, and picked up the landlord. While he was doing this, the party struck and kicked him repeatedly as well as Pears, who was bleeding and insensible. Johuso Simpson! said he was in the house, and said " What a shame !" Immediately one of the men (though not one of the accused) kicked him in the face, cut his lip open, and knocked a tooth out Dr. Gray, of Selby, said he had attended the prosecutor and described the injuries he had received. The Bench committed the men for trial at the sessions.
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Yorkshire August 1875
SAVAGE ASSAULT BY GIPSIES. four men, named William Wilsher the Elder (60), William Wilsher the yornger (24), Edward Wilsher (21), and James Winter (19), all gipsies, rendered to their bail _ upon a charge of having unlawfully and maliciously inflicted grievous bodily harm upon Mr Michael Pearse, a publican, landlord of the White Swan, Brayton. Mr Vernon Blackbain prosecuted, Mr Wheelhouse and Mr Tindal appearing for the defence. In opening the case, Mr Blackburn stated that, though there were four separate indictments against the men, it was not an assault with _ intent to commit a felony and although they were gipsies they were not thieves, therefore It must be taken out of the ordinary category. It appeared there had been a dispute about a wager, in which they used their riding whips. They had paid £lOO into court, and now appeared to receive judgment. So far as the prosecution was concerned did not at the time know so much about the men as he did now, and he had no desire to prosecute, therefore he (Mr Blackburn) would be glad if the Chairman could see his way clear to bind them over their own recognisances come for judgment whenever they might be called upon.The Chairman read the prosecutors depositions, from which it appeared that a most savage assault had been committed. The men were differing in the public-house, and upon the prosecutor remonstrating with them William Wilsher the elder twisted the lash of his whip round his hand and struck him on the lip with the butt end, knocking one of his teeth out. Both he and the elder son belaboured him with their whips, the latter knocking him down by giving him a blow on the cheek. The others then joined in kicking and striking him in a most brutal manner. The prosecutor had been under a doctors care ever since, and was still suffering great pain.The Chairman, having read this, said it was not a case for treatment as a common assault. The men could have their £lOO back, but the sentence the Court would be that they should each be imprisoned for three months with hard labour.
So this is where the story continues Kazi, take note of Clarence-street, Alfred-street South. As all of Alfred-street contains vast amounts of unknown truths
Wednesday 27 January 1937
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
The offenders were Maria Wiltshire, 58, housewife, of Clarence-street, and Rebecca Holmes, 38, pedlar, of Alfred-street South. They pleaded guilty, the Mother explained that she had had some friends over from Sheffield and took a drop too much. the Daughter, who wore a bunch of violets in her fur coat remembered the constable coming up to them. We had had a lot of drink and I am very sorry it has happened, she added. It was their first offence. The Chairman (Mr. W. Wesson) : The magistrates are going to be very lenient. You will be discharged
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This below is what Sky who started this thread wrote a while back, Maria and Rebecca are in family two, Rebecca my Grandmother was born in some field land Sheffield way my Gt Grandmother Maria (Mariah) told my Mother she came from Scotland Musselbourer way, in records it is stated Hull as the place of her birth but I believe what my Mother was told by her own Grandmother that then was told to me so Scotland way it is evan thoe they must have been around Hull maybe for some reason.
Quoted from skys post
It's interesting to see, into at least the 1930s-1940s many of Joseph Wilshaw and Maria Wilshaw nee Knight branch of the tree, keep living or hanging around as a strong family unit, while still travelling the midlands.
1901 Censuses
Civil parish-Pleasley
Ecclesiastical parish-Shirebrook Holy Trinity
Town-Shirebrook
County/Island-Derbyshire
Country-England
Registration district-Mansfield
Family one- Travelling vans
Name-Joseph Wilt Shaw, Age-56
Name-Maria K Wilt Shaw nee Knight, Age-57
Name-Emma Wilt Shaw, Age-18
Name-Henry Wilt Shaw, Age-16
Family two-Travelling vans
Name-William Wilt Shaw, Age-21
Name-Maria R Wilt Shaw nee Hartley, Age-20
Name-Rebecca Wilt Shaw, Age-4 my Grandmother
Name-William Wilt Shaw, Age-2
Family three-Travelling vans
Name-Thomas Wilt Shaw, Age-37
Name-Margaret Wilt Shaw nee Wray, Age-20
Name-Mathilda Wilt Shaw, Age-11
Name-Harriett Wilt Shaw, Age-10
Name-Thomas Wilt Shaw, Age-7
NameMargaret Wilt Shaw, Age-5
Name-Julia Wilt Shaw, Age-2
Name-Emma Willt Shaw, Age-2
At the same time, two more of Joseph Wilshaw and Maria Wilshaw nee Knight's kids are camping in another area together at 11 Smith's Field in Caravans.
Kazi this Smith's Field is where all of the Smiths and Wilsher familys would stay on, its the Kings Meadow Hawthorne street Cremorne area that is rich with the stories that we have already found and wrote about, far more is unknown than known remember about the Gipsy colony around peg terrace I think we found that way
Ecclesiastical parish-St George
County/Island-Nottinghamshire
Country-England
Registration district-Nottingham
Sub-registration district-Nottingham South West
Name-Joseph Wilshire, Age-37
Name-Elizabeth Wilshire nee Woodward, Age-38
Name-Joseph Wilshire, Age-18
Name-Henry Wilshire, Age-16
Name-Mary Wilshire, Age-7
Name-Sarah Wilshire, Age-6/12
Name-Fred Wilshire, Age-30
Name-Annie Wilshire nee Taylor, Age-30
Name-Angerimia Wilshire, Age-10
Name-Fred Wilshire, Age-7 ( Fred Wilsher who marries Angereena Boyling)
Joseph Wiltshire/Wilshaw born 1844 Pontefract, Yorkshire West Riding in a camp, Stapleton. Is the son to William Wilshaw 1811 and Lydia Jones 1800... Emma Graham nee kinght borrn abt 1825 is Joseph Wiltshire/Wilshaw 1844 monther in-law. Joseph Wilsher wife being Maria Knight Birth 1847.
Joesph Wiltshire/Wilshaw 1844 and Maria Kinght 1847 have at least 8 Kids, one of their Children is called Joseph Wilsher born 1865 Attercliffe, County of York... Who married Elizabeth Woodward so this is how the records go thurther back
People not in houses*(People sleeping in Tents)
1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw 50 abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier
Lidia Willshaw 49 abt 1812 Codbrough, Nottinghamshire, Wife
Joseph Willshaw 15 abt 1846 Darrington, Yorkshire Son
Lidia Willshaw 13 abt 1848 Lincoln, Lincolnshire Daughter
Walter Nelson * 32 abt 1829 Scotland Son-in-Law
Lotis Nelson 32 abt 1829 Stowe, Lincolnshire, Daughter
Henry Nelson 8 abt 1853 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
George Nelson 7 abt 1854 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
Harriet Nelson 5 abt 1856 Carlton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
Mary Nelson 3 abt 1858 Pontefract, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
//
William Blewitt 52 abt 1809 widow Stamford, Lincolnshire, Head tinner & Brazier
Sarah Blewitt 24 abt 1837 widow London, Middlesex, Daughter-in-Law
Valuza Blewitt 5 abt 1856 York, Yorkshire, England Granddaughter
Enis Blewitt 1 abt 1860 Hull, Yorkshire, England
//
John Lee 70 abt 1797 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Head
Charlott Lee 70 abt 1791 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Wife
Tenna Lee 27 abt 1834 Livingston, Norfolk, Daughter
Mary Boss 70 abt 1791 Farnham, Suffolk, Widow
John Phillips 29 abt 1832 Thorne, Yorkshire Tinner & Brazier
So this is William,
William Wiltshire
Bp 19 July 1805, Long Bennington, Lincolnshire, son of Edward and Letitia Wiltshire, a Traveller. Edward Wilsher 1760 married a Letitia Smith 1760. Then their Son William 1811 married Lydia Jones 1812.
Then everyone above gets mixed through many Gipsy names right the way up until I,m the last man standing at the end of a long line, theres no one left but me but then I found my dna cousins and now I have over 400 as of now, but I will be the last of this line, of this I have no doubt.
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So now in 1941 in April of that year a George Smith of Keswick-street, Sneinton attacks Rebecca in this record I found below,
Thursday 10 April 1941
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Nottm. Assault Charge George Smith, of Keswick-street, Sneinton, appeared at the Nottingham Summons Court to-day, and pleaded not guilty to assaulting Rebecca Holmes, of Clarence-street, on March 31st ... Rebecca Holmes said Smith entered her house, kicked her on the leg, and gave her a black eye. Smith was bound over to be of good behaviour for a year in the sum of £5, and ordered to pay 4s. costs
Then I read this on-line but can not say if the date is right but I put in dates right up until 1950 and no Rebecca is known, some of my relatives I read of write of a different date and I think why, if you Kazi can help me I would ask of you to see if you know if this date below is true
burial register
location WilfordHill Cemetery Nottingham
Rebecca Holmes
Buried on:
29 April 1942
recorded in: Nottinghamshire
date of death
24 April 1942
My own Mother told me how she watched her Mother die after being attacked, this death took many months, She told me how the times were hard times to witness the dieing of her own Mother for after the beating she took for she told how she was kicked bad while on the ground in the mid section and that the beating brourt on a bad illness that destroyed her insides she would often speak to my Mother telling her of her coming death these are here actual words as told to me by my Mother as my Mother as a young girl comforted her own Mother in her dieing illness
look into the fire Becca, look into the fire
.tell me Becca what do you see
I see flames mam, I see flames, dancing flames, I see flames mam, dancing flames,
then look into the flames Becca, look into the flames, look deep into the flames, now what do you see
I see you mam, I see you, in a coffin mam, I see you,
don't be afraid Becca, don't be afraid, I will always be there"
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My Mother told me she saw a coffin in the flames of the fire, she told me she saw her Mother in the coffin, her Mother told her to look into the fire and my Mam saw her own Mother in the future that was to come as real life in the dark days that they were both living, often I would have to comfort my Mother when a great darkness would envelope her in the deepest of sadness you could imagine, dark dark all encompassing darkness would surround her in a sweal of dark spirits.
When my Granmar Rebecca died my Mother was young then another Woman came into the house and my Mother when able took of and lived in a room Attic at the top of a house she was still in her teens, she would go out Hawking and making money in the end I came along there is much more but I will not speak of these times, my Mother told the story of her Mother to me, she asked and she asked people who would know true answers of who attacked her Mother for my Mother would talk of revenge but no one would give a name all that was told was that a woman was jealous of her and attacked her for like my own Mother Rebecca her Mother would sing and dance for fun, often I have seen my own Mother go up and take the mike from a singer in one of the old types of public houses that used to do those kind of things and she would sing old songs with no care in the world, if you know not of these things it is because you never saw such things but this is how life used to be, her own Mother as told to my Mother by people long ago was a Woman of great freeness who evan in death could not be chained many try and shackle that which they themselves can not be, it is true they try and destroy that which they fear for it is them who wish to bind the flower for they know not how to blossom yet they ultimately fail as this story is told, in death freedom rises through true words unknown yet they rise as the day ends, my own Mother would hold tight an old picture of her Mother and cry alone, one day I heard a noise and opened the door slowly, maybe only an inch or two, there I spied my own Mother rocking to and throw with a sorrowfull wail crying and talking to her Mother through the picture, her Mother was very handsome with golden coins in each ear, golden coin rings and golden coin broaches about her breast, all hand made, often she told me she asked who attacked her Mother now I have found out but why, what was the reason and who was the George, and why did he go in such anger to my Granmothers place and how am I related to these Smiths who through dna are related to the people I come from, I have over twenty Smiths born as Smiths in this day with great Gipsy family histories who must come from several of what they call lines, they all thoe connect to me, what does it all mean maybe one day I will find more.
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The Story of The Gold Coined People
there was a portrait photo of my GrandMother, that hung on a wall above what looked to me like a shrine, She was what is known as a Rawney Monition, She was one of the last of the true Gold Coin People, in each ear She had a Gold Sovereign, my Mother said it had to be an half Sovereign for the weight would be to much if the full one dangled down, then on Her chest She wore the Gold Coin Broach a big looking thing, they say it was called a Five pound Gold Coin, She wore a bonnet with a small feather in, She was Regale and of the highest order, the Woman I was told would wear the Gold Coin rings, you would either in the past make them yourself or have a ring made from a gold smith, I was speaking to a man says his names Stanley from down the way, he said the old Stanley's called them the raparound, now my Mother told of long years when She was small, old relatives told Her of long ago talk, its at least the middle times of the 1800s, but they themselves could of been telling what there Old People told them, but my Mother told of how the Woman would plait Coins into their hair, this was more or less a looking thing, but She also telled how She was telled that they would hide Golden Coins in their hair, so the Coins could be safe, She says they could be woven in, in such a way you could not see them or they could not fall out ,it was there answer to having a bank account, this is what as been passed down to me, oral history, the old photo of my GrandMother is the seeing record of such things of Gipsy's now gone, I saw my own Mother with Golden Coins in Her ears and on Her fingers, plus Golden Coin Broaches that where hand made and welded together, I have always worn the Gold Coins round my neck, and hand made Golden Coin rings, this is the truth of today, also the Woman liked to wear beaver skin coats, for when it rained the water would not penetrate, they were far from the weak and downtrodden you may hear of, they were much more powerful than anyone now alive will ever know, they have been left out of history, these are the Gold Coin People
Kazi this is your updated information that you found and wrote to me, thank you for sharing things I hope to write more in the future with all the many records that I have found
Hi, I have an update on George Oxby Smith and his wives...
George Oxby Smith was born in a tent, Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts on the 13 March 1868. On his birth cert his father is given as John Smith a Labourer and his mother as Mary Smith, Previously Smith.
He was Baptised 18 Mar 1868 Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts. His father is given as John Smith, mother Maria - Gipsy's.
As previously stated in this thread, on the 1891 census he is encamped in Checkley, Cheadle, Staffs aged 24 with Ellen Smith (Clayton) 21, Arthur Smith 24, Mary Ann Smith 24 (our direct ancestor) and her child Francis Smith aged 1.
George Oxby Smith died on 5 Feb 1947 at 4 Keswick Street Sneinton, Nottingham. His death was registered by E Doyle, daughter of 4 Keswick Street. She is Ellen Hetty Smith bn 1 Jul 1920, her mother being Agnes White. Ellen Hetty is now the partner of an Andrew Doyle 1915-1980.
George was buried 11 Feb 1947 Wilford Hill Cem, Nottingham in the same grave as Agnes and their son Albert Henry Smith 1925-1955 (he died in Sidcup, Kent).
So now George Oxby Smith died on 5 Feb 1947 at 4 Keswick Street Sneinton, so he was alive at the same time as a George Smith of Keswick Street Sneinton attacked my Grandmother in 1941 but which George was it, you have told how there was a son named George I wander is that Gipsy George Smith our stated cousin which I would often see about the town, I wander to what have I missed and am I right, was there more to this story no one was ever interested in telling my Mother the truth in fact they lied but why, my Mother told me after the attack her Mother went on a slow spiral of death that in truth never left the soul of my own Mother, they are both gone now and like the two Georges the two Rebecca's and the rest in these story's are all gone to this world may they all rest in peace
thats just the way of it.
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Hi again,
your story is so sad - you have kept a wonderful oral history going... by sharing it, it is kept l alive.
Yes, old George Oxby smith died in 1947, not 1941 like I had first thought. He would have been 74 when your grandmother was attacked, not beyond the realms that he could have done it. One of his sons was called George Henry Smith, born in 1917, so old enough to have also done it... but it does sound like one of them was responsible.
I will do some looking about this week and see what I can find... Would be interesting if there was a cousin connection. This line is my sons, he has had his DNA tested with Ancestry and we definitely have the right family line going back as we have had matches that show this. George Oxby Smith had some sisters I have not been able to trace yet... maybe a connection through them?
You do get the feel that Gypsy George was a menace and a thug. He would have been dealt with very differently today.
I will dig about and see what I can find- do come back if you need anything clarifying - I can get mixed up at times.
Thanks for all that information, you must have spent a lot of time researching.
Bye for now Kazi
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Hi,
I have checked the burial you asked for...
Rebecca Holmes died 24 Apr 1942 bur 29 Apr 1942 aged 42 Death occurred at 243 or 43 Alfred Street, Central Nottingham.
Also in the same grave - Section No I J36 Grave No 5 Southern Cemetery, Wilford Hill
Maria Wilshire died 27 Feb 1954 bur 2 Mar 1954
David Holmes (AKA Ward) died 27 Nov 1940 bur 2 Dec 1940
William Wilshire died 1 May 1936 bur 7 May 1936
Hope that helps
Kazi
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Helo Kazi
Thank you for helping me and I will write back another time, you have been very kind to me and I will always remember you with fondness, thank you for finding the true date in confirming my thoughts, I see you as you in your kind deeds and wish for good luck to pass your way.
This below is about Elik, we both wrote a few times to each other, in life you get one shot, Elik was on the front line and a good kind person, I will always speak of his great name and also wish you to read these words below, Elik was also kind to me in the days of the past, Elik spoke but a few words to me yet the few could outshine the vast books of the so-called who passed their judgment on people that they only fooled and the foolish who also in this day willingly believe a room that contains holds truth, but what does contain mean if not to shakle, why not look through free eyes, why is a trying word, better to leave the fools with fools words for they know not how to try, I stayed round Lanark for a few days once on my way up to the higher mid lands of Scotland, I will always remember Elik, why would I ever forget him.
Elic Kennedy
8 February 2010
ON CHRISTMAS Eve the Gypsy Traveller community saw, with great sadness, one of our finest men travel on from us. Following a short and sudden illness, Elic passed away at Hairmyres Hospital in South Lanarkshire.
Alexander Kennedy was born 60 years ago last August in Lanark, but it wouldn't have mattered where, as he loved every part of this country. He was a proud Romany Gypsy man whose family roots lay in and around the Lanark, Borders and Edinburgh areas. He was a direct descendant of one of the foremost Romany Gypsy families in Scotland and could trace his bloodline back to the Queen of the Yetholm Gypsies, Esther Faa Blyth.
Elic loved his culture, its traditions, its way of life, history and language.
He was an artist of some considerable talent. He could make anything out of wood and created many paintings (none of which he would sell for profit) depicting scenes of Gypsy Traveller life including the caravans and wagons of yesteryear.
Elic was a great character who lived life to the full. He had a great sense of fun and loved engaging with people from all walks of life. He loved nothing better than taking his vardo (traditional Romany wagon] to what is now left of the traditional Gypsy gatherings such as St Boswells, Brough Hill and Appleby. The first thing he would do was light up a "stick fire" where everybody would congregate and pass the time of day. Whether you were Giorgio or Gypsy Traveller you would walk away with a history lesson. If you hung about long enough, and many did, you would get a right good feed from the many pots cooking over the fire (nouvelle cuisine was certainly not on his menu).
Elic and his family had recently become settled in Symington, but he had spent most of his life on the road, first with his parents and then with his wife, Freda, and his own family, trying to maintain his traditional way of life. He was a man to whom fairness mattered and he despised prejudice and injustice in any form.
Elic, along with many others from the Gypsy Traveller community, was well acquainted with misunderstanding and discrimination. It was such experiences that made him determined to work towards redressing the balance and he became a passionate advocate and activist for his community. He treated everyone as an equal, had no time for posturing and pretension and was very quick to pick up on it.
Elic made a significant contribution to the Scottish Government's Strategic Working Group on Gypsy Travellers. He was particularly concerned about issues such as accommodation and recognition of Gypsy Travellers as an ethnic minority in Scotland. He lobbied MPs, local and national, and he became a force to be reckoned with and could debate with anyone for hours to prove a point if he thought he was right.
One of the things that angered him most was how Gypsy Travellers were portrayed by the media and he would grab every opportunity and invitation to speak about the positive aspects and all that is good about our lifestyle and culture .
Elic truly was a one-off and his passing is a loss not only to our own community but to the many whose lives he touched. He has left a lasting legacy in his family, who will carry on the traditions and heritage he so proudly preserved.
Be assured Elic, wherever you are, there are still, and will continue to be, "Hearts upon The Highway".
Elic is survived by his wife, his sons and grandchildren.
By MARY HENDRY
Born: 22 August, 1949, in Lanark.
Died: 24 December, 2009, in East Kilbride, aged 60.
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Hi Again,
Lovely story about Elic - just shows we must never judge others...
I have more on those burials - I forgot to add the place of death and address in my last message:
Maria Wilshire died at 2 Cathcart Street
David Holmes/Ward died at City Hospital and was of 35 Clarence Street
William Wilshire died at the City Hospital and was of 35 Clarence Street
With the info from last nights message I am trying to work a tree backwards to see if I can find a connection.
Bye again Kazi
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Hi Kazi
More great bran new information that is in this time the first time that such information as ever passed by my eyes, Sue and Sky have helped me in the past but you have showed me now evan more truth, all three of you have been bringers of truth that as opened my eyes, if you look at this story below would you know if the Smith Girl is of the Nottingham Smiths for i am sure when Henry says
" My son married this woman's sister " well i am sure he is talking of the Smith girl, do you know of a Ellen Smith who as a Sister who would have married Henry's Son, its just a try by me by reading reports, thank you again for telling me of the information you located, i never new David died in the hospital my Mother telled of a young David who died then Sue and Sky found things for me to back up the old oral talk that i would sit and liston to as my Mother would have long chats with me about life long ago, She says David had a sort of scarf rapped around his neck and was poorly only a little fellow he was, my Mother was just only a child herself but remembers many of those young moments, Sue and Sky found things that i will forever be grateful for and then you come along and just be a sort of nice person, that's not a bad sort of thing to be and do, i think it may help myself to think more on being a better person myself, i will write back if i find another Smith that may connect, you never know but Gipsy George Smith said we was Cousins in his talk to my Mother and i would talk with one of His Daughters and She would say the same, they new the old Romany talk but all the old people now are gone and it doesn't take long for everything to vanish, i learned lots of what they call the Romany words to but in the city all the people of the Gipsy's would be dealing people and you would know of the cant language of the city dealers, when i came along i learned both but thought them as just one language, but how was i to know, then when i met lots of Gipsy people by talking to them on-line over many of these past yeares and reading things well i realised lots of words was old Romany and lots was old cant, it was an eye opener to be able to separate the two and go back in my mind and remember the times they were used.
In this story below it may be the other girl Henry is talking about but Henry knows this Smith Girl there may be a clue in some of the deatail in this story.
Monday 17 september 1934 Nottingham evening post
GENTLEMAN AND HIS LADY FRIENDS.
NOTTM. DRUNKENNESS CHARGE.
When Henry Wiltshire, 50, hawker, of St. Ann'street, appeared before the magistrates with two women companions at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day, jointly charged with being drunk and disorderly in Milton-street on Saturday night, he declared himself to be a "gentleman," and took it upon himself the full blame for the lapse of the women. The women were Ellen Smith, 27, and Rose Ann Stranther, 40. Referring to one of them, Wiltshire declared :" My son married this woman's sister, and I had not seen this girl for a few years. They are here through me getting them drunk. "Its my fault." The Bench however, imposed fines. Wiltshire and Smith were fined the higher amounts
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Hi,
The names do not ring any bells for me at the moment... But I don't yet know all the names of the people - I will look more into it tomorrow.
You said you met the daughters of Gypsy George Smith, do you remember their names? Other than Ellen Hetty Smith and Esmerelda Smith I'm struggling.
We'll all have lots of new information to work with next year when the 1921 census is released.
Kazi
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Kazi
You have done great, well done i thank you so much for the information you showed me, you do not have to do any more you have given me enough for two life times, i will try to find information in the storeys that we have found over the years i have wrote them down before in several threads so i will see if i can find them again and put them on here so you will be able to see them all in one go, look at this below Joseph is Sky's Granddad or Gr Grandad i think and would be a Uncle i think of some sorts to my Mother or Cousin maybe, but the strange thing was i showed Sky this story long ago and i wanted her to think of the Smith connection but she never said anything, i do not think she picked up on what i wanted her to see, the story tells of Joseph being related to these Smiths, why Sky never said anything i do not know, i think She relies more on the census and legal notes that most Genealogy people think of as concrete answers, also the story below the first one is about Gipsy's fighting in Nottingham a good read the article in full and the new place names where some of them stayed like White Horse Field which i have not known of, the Smiths in the article i am sure connect to old old George Gipsy Smith, i have offten wrote about Red Lion Street Narrow Marsh everyone of the old ones are connected to that place in one time or another, like Keswick street they are all demolished now but i know every step where they are in this day i will show you maps another time to help you, there is no need now to help me no more for you have done for me a great deed and i would not like to trouble you no more, thank you again Kazi i will write another time when i get everything together for you, it may be a few months but i will look for what i have found and see if there is more of anything, old Gipsy George Smith that my Mother new as a relative of some sorts from the older times had a George and a Sidney and one of his Daughters was Jane Janey Janis from what i remember Janis was a real nice person and evan in this day if ever i chance to meet Her we have a hug, Her Mam and Dad are long gone now they must come from one of the older Smiths round Nottingham, we are all from the Sneinton way like the old old old Smiths that i have offten wrote about, good Luck to you Kazi you done good by me i will write back later i promise maybe i will not find no more but at least you will see the things i did find,
michael
A DERBY DISTURBANCE. NOTTM.
HAWKER HIS WEALTHY SONS-IN-LAW.
Saturday 17 June 1916
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
A melee in the Derby Cattle Market on Friday, in which prisoner was rescued from custody and a constable had to make use of his staff, had a sequel at the police-court to-day. Joseph Wiltshire, hawker, 6, Gedling-street, Nottingham, was fined 10s. assaulting Pc. Bristow, and for assaulting Special Constable H. A. Wallace (market superintendent), whom he struck several times on the face and body; while Alfred Smith, dealer, living in a van at Cotton-lane, was fined 7s. 6d. for fighting. Bristow apprehended Smith and his antagonist, whereupon Wiltshire (the father-in-law of the men) and others intervened and succeeded in getting one of the prisoners away. Wiltshire then ran off, but was stopped by Mr. Wallace who told the Bench that Wiltshire made a mad struggle for freedom. Wiltshire, against whom there were eight previous convictions. including one for police assault, stated that his sons-in-law had a lot of money in their possession and was afraid they would be robbed.
Friday 27 December 1929
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
extract
POLICE COURT ECHOES OF CHRISTMAS. PEOPLE CHARGED IN NOTTINGHAM. SCRAP BETWEEN GIPSIES BRIDLESMITH-GATE. The Christmas festivities had echo at Nottingham Guildhall to-day, two gangs of gipsies, who started fighting in Bridle-Smith-Gate on Christmas Eve, were summoned to appear, they were: George William Welbourne,18, living in a caravan Cromford-avenue. Carlton; Sidney Smith,18. of Red Lion-street; John Lee, 21. caravan dweller Wollaton Park; and Alfred Smith, 25, of Barker-gate, William Holland, 22 Red Lion-street; Thomas Albert, Smith, 34, Red Lion-street .Clara English 22 Red Lion Street John Lee, White Horse field Wollaton
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Thank you for the info, I will add it to my collection... I do have all the old Alan Godfrey maps of Nottingham from around 1900, and have spent many hours using them in my research, they were all very close together.
I will continue to add new info as I find it, and hopefully it will be of use to someone now or in the future.
I will keep on the trail of all the characters, and also investigate Gypsy Georges 2 brothers who also lived in Nottingham at the time, I know one of them married I to the Stanley family, and someone else the Bacon family and also the Smiths!
No rush for the info, in your own time. In the meantime I will order another certificate to help progress the search, and hopefully jog memories.
Stay safe and thanks you.
Kazi
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Kazi
did you ever get to learn anything about the Bacons, i tried my best to find everything i could for them, they are stated as coming up from the South and living over at Selston, from reading your posts i think you said one of Old old Gipsy George Smiths brothers William went around as William Bacon for i found him with that as a alias, then you said the Smiths and Bacons are related then on my dna i have Smith cousins related to the Grays with the Bacon's and Smiths in their family tree, i would like to know if you found out who the Bacons are i found large amounts i wrote it all up here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=803537.msg6616171#msg6616171
if you do not know anything just do not write back, read all the storeys thoe that i found on the link above, i wonder if it was William over at Hawthorne street on that camping ground when that thomson said of them as so-called, i wonder if that was William Smith and who are the Bacon's from the South.
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Hi,
Our William Smith bn 1864, a full brother to George Smith 1868-1949 also lived in Nottingham. He married Minnie Bacon. I have a few bit on the Bacon's - not a lot , but will share what I have this week when I have sorted it out.
I have started researching William again and their half brother Thomas Albert Smith bn 1863 who also lived in Nottingham to see if any new information has come on line. I'll share all I find.
Bye for now
Kazi
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Kazi
Thank you again like i say i will look also, look after yourselve Kazi
michael
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Hi there. my name is kevin addley and i live in new zealand was it my tree you are talking about? happy to share anything i have regarding my great grandmother flora scamp with you hope to hear from you regards kevin
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Helo Kevin pleased to meet you and i hope you are well, yes you come up on Ancestry as a distant relative of mine through the dna sequence in the common ancestor range, it must be through your ancestors known as the Scamps for i have several connections to the same people through more Gipsy Family's like the Beaneys and Gardiners who Ancestry puts me as related to them, i also am dna related to a Girl born from a Scamp Mother the Father i think was a Clark, all their related matches that we both share are of the Gipsies. In my research into the Family clusters that have taken the Ancestry dna test i looked through their own unique dna which was tested as individuals, well i find i match through dna to them all, i dna match to several Bucklands and reading of their Family lines, well these Bucklands are all close relatives and i match through my own dna to all of them, this analyse is surely a validation of logical data.
Ancestry send me names of Gipsy's from Europe, several now, they write in their profile how they are Roma Romany and true not a drop of British dna in their body yet i have the full British dna yet me and my Romany Cousins from the Americas and Europe share far of dna, in life you are what is inside you, Ancestry claim me and you are and share fragments of dna from a common Ancestor that is still alive in us in this day when i look into your Ancestor's i find the match through the Scamps linage, i match through dna to Male and Female Lees born in this day from born and bred Lees, the Scamps seem to me to be an old Gipsy Family connected to the Lees they all are more than likely from the same People so in this sense names do not matter so maybe the dna is showing up ancient long lines that in this day names just cloud the arisen, we share in this day about a lock of hair the same as what people used to cut from the dead and save in a golden locket to feel close to their loved ones, now in this day through the science of dna and the fine people that run Ancestry well again this new road is being built that i think in the future will show and ignite a light that will never dim, evan in the doubted mind, maybe there is no one true answer its just our mind as not developed to cope with this sort of intricate information, i am not educated through school to no standard yet i have tryed my best to educate myself in the science of life, i remotely understand the universe as in the periodical table, the Elements and have come to know that maths are the building blocks of everything, all revolves around numbers, you can make anything work if you wish but is it the true reading of numbers, if you die in this life a success and one who champions a said road as in a true pass, for what of such things for if in after your death the road you trod was an uneven road that only pleased those with not the mind to think freely, people it is said are of the animal kingdom and the humans used to be followers like the herds of other beasts, some meat eaters some grass grazers, mostly i think we all come from a tribe like animal that is still there in the inside of us all, then we found fire we found grain we found the wheel, we stopped being hunters on the move and started to form community's over thousands of years we stopped grunting for we needed language to barter with the other settled tribes who also grew crops and kept livestock for food and trade, in the past we just had to be able to kill on the run so maybe a sort of quite singe language was the first language, i do think though from reading others thoughts that they themselves in their mind thoughts reconnect to more the herd followers, now in the flight or fight mindset which i think is hotwired into us all over thousands of yeares of evolution it is said that when we left the trees in our monkey state it was because the forests were diminishing and vast open prairie lands were being formed by the giant ice melts of long ago, that's when our backs started to unstoop and we walked around learning now to run from the beasts that were stronger than us, in the end it is said we became civilised as nations as we had conquered and colonised the world all others were tamed or killed in the wake that followed the wave cast forth adrift the ship, i do not really know anything of the Gipsy's from the South of these English lands yet time and time again now Ancestry send me old Cousin dna matches of names like Cooper Wells Lock Harrison Small Burton and many more that i think come from the South, i do not know of these Peoples yet through me just tyring to think straight it must meen in the far times Gipsy's must have been generally all connected to each other, more than likely all of them stem from just a few Family tribes that contained several Family's then over in Britain to a certain amount they split up and interbred with the locals, then in this time some would be of the North and some of the South i think Ancestry as shown me through my dna that they all are from the ones that were first all together and by me being distantly related to the Roma and Gipsy Peoples of Europe well it proves in my own mind that all Peoples from the Gipsy's are from the same Peoples.
Kevin it would be great if you could write of Flora Scamp
michael
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Hi Kazi
I came across another Booth Family in my dna common Ancestor range on one side of the Lady's tree her Grandmother was Mary Keziah Booth born in 1902 her family lines goes back through the Booths and Smiths which includes Ambrose Hammi Turtle Smith 1790- if you go back a few pages on this thread you will see how people write to me about these Smiths, then I start to understand a Family structure then when I research more names in my Smith matches I forget the lot, try as I mignt it sure is a hard thing to do, Janey who dna matches to me wrote she came out of a Cain Smith in the 1700s it must be this Cain below
Saturday 07 August 1762
Oxford Journal
Oxfordshire
C O UN TRY NEWS
Thursday Night Cain Smith, a Gypsey, was committed to our Castle for Robbery on the Highway, committed in
...then theres is the Turtle Smiths from the 1700s David wrote to me also several pages back about this below
Hello Michael
Looking at your dna matches it appears that we have a link through a female Smith
related to Abraham 1680, Absalom Smith 1768 Levi Smith 1810 Divers Smith 1856 Ambrose Hammi Turtle Smith 1790.....
I have not done a dna. My Smiths are mainly Notts., Leics, and Derbys. My Grandmother, Beatrice was born in Whitwick, Leics in 1880; and is in the 1881 census at Bulwell Forest travelling with her Grandfather, Levi 1810-1883.
All the best
David.
Well Kazi if I match to all these lines of Smiths it must meen way back in time they all matched to each other, this is my dna match below I only give her first name for she goes by her marridge name now and of course i will not put such things up.
So on the free bits of information you may see a Certificate of Henry Clayton or Smith 1833 and photos of people like Adeliza Booth Beatrice Booth Nathaniel Booth (1861Albert Booth Aaron James Booth.
Her Granmar is Mary Keziah Booth of Oakham Rutland, Mary's Mother and Father were Nathaniel Booth 1861 1934
Of Barleythorpe, Rutlandshire and Adeliza Alice Ann Smith 18641925 of Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire Nathaniel Mother was Emma Booth of Hoby Leicestershire and his Father was Henry Booth of Dally Leicestershire Adeliza Mother was Ryerdunty Smith born 1817- of Waltham, Leicestershire, and her Father was Napthali Smith 18201865 of Melton Mowbray Leicestershire They all come out of Sophia Smith of Rutland17901853 Jane Smith of Stafordshire 17701802
Ambrose Hammi Turtle Smith 1790-of Marston Trussell, Northamptonshire.
If you do look back a few pages you will see these names above mentioned by people who have dna matched to me and are from the Smiths so this Lady named Lesley Of Lincolnshire is another connecting dna match in the common Ancestor range, I share six dna matches with Lesley that are all from the Gipsy Family's of old, they include another Smith Girl who only shows a few names on her profile but one is a marridge of a
Drewcilla Smith to a Edward Charlotte, Drewcillas Mother was Phoebe Smith, 18851988
there are Smiths on both of sides of this matches Family tree but most of the information you will only see if you write to your dna match and pass a sort of test, then they may let you see and know more, a great many of my Gipsy related dna matches share a free basic family tree that opens your eyes to the past, you then must write to them for far more in depth Family knowledge that you may then see if they like you to some degree, they have spent much time i suppose on gathering all the information over many years so they guard this information in some respect until they get to know you, some of my Gipsy Matches in relations are quite cold and hide evan their Ethnicity, i wander what goes through their minds then i stop wandering for when i go into their minds i find its is a cold unwelcoming place so i leave such thoughts alone, i do not write to no one, Janey said i could join Her profile as did Sky but i think its for the best i stay alone, i do thank them though, it was a kind thing to do and i am sure good luck will come and pass their way.
Take a look Kazi through the names above like i say these Booths may be known to you, let me know if you get the chance to read this, i have told you of the Booths down the South connected to the Coopers who i match to and the Booths connected to the Sherriffs who i dna match to, you told me these are not the ones you have knowledge of so are these Booths above who i dna match to connected to the Booths you are looking for, if not i will let you know when more comes to light.
I do hope you are well and take care of youself..michael
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Hi again,
Yes, most of those people are in our tree, Nathaniel Smith 1861 is my sons 3 X Great Uncle... but most of the other appear in some place or another in our tree.
I havent done much since we last messaged (I will PM you). I will get back on with it. I had our DNA tested through Ancestry and that is where our tree is - I do have the tree set as privates but give access as asked.
I have this weekend also ordered a few more certificates to progress my research...
Am I right in thinking you use My Heritage? I have never used it but my friend Tracey does and has great success, maybe I should try it.
Hope everyone is staying safe, Kazi
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Hi Kazi
I received your pm. yes i am registered to My Heritage as well as Ancestry dna, my Daughter got me the Ancestry dna pack for a gift, she lives in Nottingham then my Son who lives in Buckinghamshire gave me a gift of a My Heritage dna pack, i do not go on the My Heritage one for it feels like my head is being spun everytime i try to look at it, Ancestry dna in format is unbelievable great to use and understand, its so easy to navigate, you must ask Tracy to write to me if she wants, who is she from if shes related to me through the dna sequence in the common ancestor range, My Heritage is more than likely just as good as Ancestry its just i received Ancestry first and got used to using it, if i was to take some time in going onto My Heritage i have no doubt it would be just as great as Ancestry if not better, i will go back on it and have another go.
Its great to that at last we found the connection between the Booth Smiths that connects our talk, i have many more Smiths as in direct Smiths in the dna range of relations, i have not evan tryed to look into them yet, i have about twenty Smith Family lines, or twenty Smiths who are related to me through dna on Ancestry some have Gipsy's on both sides some have the Gipsy Ancestry say just through their Fathers side, but they are all born and bred Smiths i have lots of Lees to and Lovell's and some of them are from America the Lovell's i meen, i think the Lees are still over these lands the Bunces who are from the Boswell Herons they are from far over another ocean in the lands they now live, they come out of the famous Alma Boswell that i have researched much, the Blackpool Boswells are ritch in history i have collected vast amounts about them just to learn of the Gipsy History, i never in my wildest dreams did ever think one day i would share dna with their own descendants, and when i found out about my Heron and Hearne connections through dna well i almost swallowed my tongue, every day i learn more, i found lots of Coopers to and i can not believe it but i am sure this Lady who is a Cooper from America well she used to write to me yeares ago several times and now i think i have found her again this time through being dna related to me, i wrote about the Herons to on here and then the same direct Heron Family that i was researching turns out to share old dna with me, wild or what, serendipity, i love researching i hope you do to, take care Kazi
michael
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Good day to Kazia and Micheal ,i ,m descended from Cain 1 my 5th greatgrandfather ,down through his son Cain 2 ,then his daughter Evening ,then her daughter Sibby /Siberena ,then her daughter my greatgranny Emily who was common law to Fred Elliott .Their daughter Ginny / jane Elliott was my grandmother ,married to Ben Smith ,my dads parents .Ben was descended on his paternal side from James Smith my 6th greatgrandad then through 3 of his sons Jasper ,Absolom and salvino /Fido my 5th greats,then through cousin marriages ,their children Wisdom , Cain ,Trinity ,Unity ,Robert ,Thomas being my 4th greats ...
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Hi Jane
You come from the greatest of Peoples thank you for putting the history up of your relatives, it is of the most importance to help people of the future to learn of everything that in after our times will be lost to them, just in the feel of a persons words may history be passed on, i know you already have found out lots of things but are any of these reports of help, if i find more i will write back and tell you of such things, these below are just a few extracts that i find, the Newspaper Archives are a must for all who come on Rootschat, it is only a few pounds to sign up for a chance to find out vast amount of information of the past times, everyone who is serious about researching their old Family's from the Gipsy Peoples of long ago should signe up to the Archives and await to be amazed
Friday 31 January 1851
Stamford Mercury
Lincolnshire
on the road, Trinity Smith, gipsy aged 70
...
Friday 31 January 1851
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
in a Gipsy Tent, Trinity wife of Cain Smith, basket-maker, aged 70
.
Friday 25 February 1853
Lincolnshire Chronicle
Lincolnshire
At Pilsgate, on the 19th inst., very suddenly, Baity son of Cain Smith, basket-maker
...
Friday 30 September 1853
Stamford Mercury
Lincolnshire
A Gipsy's Prophecy. At Northampton, a few days ago, gipsy woman named Trinity Smith was sentenced to three months' imprisonment for defrauding Mrs. Braines of Is. 6
.
Friday 11 April 1856
Stamford Mercury
Lincolnshire
and on the 9th, Cain alias Gipsy Smith, formerly of Wittering, aged 76. At the Railway gate-house, Easton, Lavina infant daughter of Mr. Thos. Smith
...
Monday 07 August 1911
Aberdeen Press and Journal
Aberdeenshire
Scotland
A gipsy woman,- named Trinity Smith, had (according to correspondent) a family of daughters named respectively Levise, Centina - Cinderella, and .............
I know Jane you most probably have seen these above before but i think of other peoples who may pass this way now or in the future, the greatest gift is the gift of giving, take care Jane
michael
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This message is for everyone on Rootschat who read these words, you will see how Sky my Cousin started this thread about our Ancestors and how many names come into this history, you will see how Sky as done the dna test and i also, my dna says i am the British way dna yet you all must of read of my many connections to the old Romany Family's of Britain and America, well also you will know if you have been listening how i have stated that i am dna related to Romany Gipsy Peoples throughout Europe who hold no British dna only far of old Romany Gipsy Travelled routes dna as in Country's of origin as in Ethnicity, tonite i just looked at again another dna match, this Cousin Match as no British dna yet if you read their Ethnicity you will see how they come from Gipsy's, i share Five Cousins with this Match all the Five are from the British Romany Family's of Origin with very strong Cousin links to most of the Old Gipsy Names, these Five share with me Cousin Matches from as much as 86 to 58 that meens i share Cousin dna with my Five Matches that cover maybe all the Gipsy Family's of Britain, the least of my Matches share 58 Cousins with me the most 86 shared Cousins yet we all share a Cousin Match with the Person below who holds no British dna, my Matches share dna with this Match below yet how do i come into such things.
this below is Martas dna Ethnicity as you see with your own eyes there is no British way dna yet me and Marta are far of dna Cousins in the Common Ancestor range, i have not given Martas full name ony their first name
Marta Ethnicity from Ancestry as sent to me as a Cousin yet my Ethnicity differs from what Ancestry tell me, i have several more Cousins from Europe who are from the Gipsy Romany Family's that came from the far lands they all hold no dna from Britain yet time and time again it is stated i have the same dna as them yet not the same Ethnicity, i am just putting this up for history, in the future others can see the truth that i freely write here as real truth stated by me that i have not yet come to understand, only the truth matters lies are a part of history but they can change history that's why governments ban people from speaking for they only want their narrative to be known, when you ban the spoken word just be course of a reason of your making you then burn books then evan attack people for thinking, then we have a robot world controlled by the few, this is the way of things and things to come, on my Fathers side i have hundreds of dna Matches to and not one is from the Gipsy's or not one holds the Ethnicity of the Country's travelled by the Gipsy's, all my over Five Hundred Gipsy dna Matches reconnect to each other in Clusters they do not interlink with my Fathers Clusters yet i link with the Gipsy's of Britain America and Europe that do not link with my Father only my Mother yet it is my Fathers Ethnicity that shows up yet the Gipsy dna pushers this aside and this came from my Mothers Old Family i wonder is Ethnicity dna or is dna Ethnicity or is dna dna, or what is dna, or how can you have dna that Ethnicity does not match, i will keep looking.
Ireland
0%
Scotland
0%
England & Northwestern Europe
0%
Wales
0%
Northern India
38%
The Balkans
22%
Greece & Albania
16%
Turkey & the Caucasus
10%
Eastern Europe & Russia
6%
Southern India
3%
European Jewish
2%
Cyprus
2%
Iran/Persia
1%
I hope this information helps others to understand that what we think as reason is only how we have been taught to count, no one who as ever lived understands numbers, our time in Genealogy is but the cusp of a mighty rainbow where true maths reside yet in time people yet may learn of such things, i wonder is Ethnicity dna or is dna just dna and Ethnicity something else, does anyone know the true answer in this time.
michael
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Hi,
Have a James Bailey of Kent (1770-) ~ 4th paternal great grandfather ~ whose daughter Sarah Baily married into the Friend Romany family.
Also have connections with Scamp (am a Kemp), Lee, & Boswell family names.
Any information on the Kent Bailey name I would be grateful for - many thanks :)
"...Ancestry sent me this information saying i share d.n.a in the broken three mark with lots of people from the Gipsy community..."
match named (beaney) ROMNEY MARSH Kent
......relatives of match.......Mark Ripley 1738 Samuel Beaney 1809 Henry Beney 1694 Emmaneul Hilton 1802 Philadephia Jones 1812 Mary Miley 1763 Menty Scamp /Mathews 1884 Oliver Scamp
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
match named (Gardiner)
.relatives of match......Leonard Gardiner 1867 Thomas Gardiner 1820 Mary Borman 1668 Elizabeth Boswell 1875 Sampson Scamp 1774 Mary Ann Maden 1856 Abel Lee 1751
..
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
Clarke ..........female
..relatives of match......Margery Bailie 1578 Flora Ripley/Scamp 1890 John Scamp1693 Henry Woodward 1606 Joyce Wootton 1604 Anthony Lee 1679 Elsabesth Lee 1595 Orsin Lee 1728 Abel Lee 1759
3rd cousin 1x removed
Half 3rd cousin
Half 2nd cousin 2x removed
2nd cousin 3x removed
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Hi
The Clarke Female who I match to goes back in her tree to a John Scamp 1693 then many more Scamps come along including Rose Kemp (Scamp)1755, I wonder is this how the Kemp's became Scamps or the Kemp's were Scamps before or something like that but I think something is going on for the Kemp's then go back to George Kemp 1680, Rose is in quite a few of my other Gipsy Matches trees, on the Clarke side they go back to Margaret Clarke1611, sticking to the Scamp side they go back to John Lock 1715 and Thomas Stanley 1593 plus Elsabeth Lee 1595.
Now Margery Baylie 1578 who you ask about is stated as not from the South but Didsbury, Lancashire, which side of the tree she is on I do not know for I have not wrote to my dna match to access more information this information is just on the open profile that they let everyone view freely.
Do not give up though for now listen to this, the Clark Lady as the Northern India Balkans Central Asia and South Southern India dna and shares with me 51 dna matches who all are from the Gipsy Family's of old or have old Romany Gipsy Relations some are directly straight down the line others have old People in their trees who come from the oldest of the Gipsy's either way the dna is still alive in them in this day, there will be more than 51 Cousin matches for they only highlight matches in the 1 6th Cousin group, so this is the important bit for you to liston to for in the shared matches that me and this Clarke Lady above share well there is one named Bailey he is a shared Cousin to the both of us, he is in the 4th 6th Cousin range with me when they state this they say there is a chance of evan being a kind of third Cousin, I think its best to start at the far end at the sixth range then through other ways try to work things out, all these ranges I have no doubt at all will change as time moves onwards to more discovery's in the science of the dna, use everything as a guide at the moment, its just to understand that the people who work in dna will regrade much of the data but the data is showing up ancient Family lines that innter connect through other Family lines, I suppose this is just the beginning for in 50 yeares when the peoples of the next day come they will know more and look back on these times as rather primitive, the dna though that was lost generations ago through admixture will not be lost again for it is now being documented in this day so evan if your Greatgrandchild was to not show the dna of your own Greatgrandmother they would still know about her through your own saved data of your own dna sampling in this day, so evan if there was no paper trail as in census records your offspring of the yeares to come will use your dna research in this day to form that bigger picture that we must all seak.
So me and the Clarke Lady both share dna with this Bailey Male who also as the North Indian dna, I share 48 dna Cousin matches with this Bailey all are of the Gipsy's, so this means the Baileys are of the Gipsy's and they share dna with these Gipsy's of the South yet what part of Britain do the Baileys come from.
I looked for you to, through my many Kent location Gipsy matches and found a Lady who as a Lambert Mother in the 5th 8th Cousin range she goes back to William Lambert 18161876 there is a picture painting of a Gipsy Varda over his name so i think the Lambert's may come from the Gipsy's i wrote this for you because they like you have the Family named Friend in their tree, Deborah Friend 17181772 Thomas Friend 1654 Thomas Friend 16801754 John Frend 16101662, they also are related to the Rowlands, this line goes back to Goodfellow Rowland 17511816, the Rowlands are related to the Stanley Family because i have several Stanley dna matches who are born and bred Stanley's Male and Female, and i can remember the Rowlands in one of their Family trees when i was looking, just to add it seams like the Stanley's like the Young's who i match to seam to be located in America now, there may be some in England but i do remember reading the profiles of quite a few of them and i think they are American now, the Lambert Lady shares 18 dna Cousins with me they include the Boswell's Young's smith's Wharton's Worden's of Rock Hill, York, South Carolina, USA, Sharp's (AbeleLucasStanley's) Stanley's lee's Jeffery's and another Bailey related to the Worden's Wharton's in the 4th 6th range, i do not know anything of the Lambert's from the South yet they must have very old Romany Gipsy Ancestry from at the least one of these above that then reconnects them all, or evan several connections over many yeares connecting several Family lines as one through dna as a Family in dna.
I hope some of this may be of help to you, remember though how the Clarke match who's Mother is a Scamp, she shares old dna with the match named Bailey, they both to share a bit of the Indian dna, they both share me to, but not a clue how i come into it, its interesting tho, i hope you may find more and i will write back here if i find anything else, i do hope life is fine by you and it was good talking to you to.
michael
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Thanks Panished,
Have a tiny amount of South Asia in my Gedmatch profile, but it is there.
My paternal Baileys link to Romany Gimber-LEEs of Kent, yes - through the Friend family, & the Hildens, who might also be the Yelding family under another name.
But I also have a line to the Gimber family from my maternal Thurgoods of Terling, Essex. So my lines cross.
Have a remote, distant line from the Thurgoods, by way of the Coopers, which connects to the Romany Smiths of West Bromwich. This Cooper was known as 'Norwood Sam' of Gipsy Hill in south London, which is a coincidence, because I grew up in Norwood.
My Kent Baileys I suspect came down from Scotland - I am 9% Scottish on my Ancestry profile. I'm looking at Scotland now.
Have Scamps in my tree - they appeared just recently, when I made the Gimber-Lee connection to both sides of my tree. My paternal north London Kemp grandfather moved permanently to Kent, what drew him there is a mystery; I am sure there were far-flung family connections which took him there, but I haven't discovered what they were yet: London families in the Victorian era are very difficult to trace because London was so huge, many families sharing identical names - sometimes identical first & second names.
I have dna links to Yetholm in Scotland - a 'Scottish Gypsy' location - but the Scottish census returns have been a bit of a stumbling block at the moment, can't get a lot of information.
Will update.
Many kind thanks again!
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Hi
You was right about the Hildens having different names like Yelding, I pressed the button where it says in matches tree, what that means is I have hundreds of matches through shared dna, they then have many names in their tree, so if you type in Hilden in to your shared matches, the stated matches show up, well I have four dna matches who then have Hildens in their tree, I do not have a single Hilden as a match but these four below are related to me through shared dna and they have the Hildens in their Family line, if you would like to know more if anything connects to you I would evan write to them for you.
So looking at the Hildens I found a distant Cousin Match who as a
Elvie Hilden 18801942 Hertfordshire who weds jasper lee1880
The Lees go back to Back to Henry LaFayette Lee 18101845 Shelby Co, , Kentucky, USA
My dna match is a Loveridge on both sides she is from Cambridge, Cambridgeshire I share 13 dna Cousin matches with this Female
The Loveridges go back to a
Benjamin Loveridge
17651853 Tutholden, Oxfordshire,
Also there ia a Joseph Smith
1821
I have another Female match from the Isle of Sheppey, Kent, I share 4 matches with her in the 4th 6th Cousin range from reading her tree that she lets you see I think it is her Grandmother who is the Hilden who goes back to a
Hoger/Hodges/George Hilden Lynsted, Kent
18801913
There is also a
John Hilden/Yelden/Yelding Sturry, Kent
18361897
And also
John Yelden/Yielding (Hilden)
1815
The Stanley's go back to a
John STANLEY Bentley, Hampshire
17441817
The Smiths go back to a John Smith
18191866
Brighton, Sussex
The Lees go back to a
Thomas Lee
1760
Chatham, Kent
The Buckley's go back to a
Perrin Buckley
1757
Essex
I have another match this time its a Straight down the line Male Gardiner
Not the ones I have wrote of before, but with this Gardiner we both share 39 matches all again from the old Gipsy Family's the Hilden connection is from
Jack Hilden Plumstead Kent
19061985
Who weds
Brittania Eastwood Dartford Kent
19112008
The Boswells Scamps Dightons Lees and more are on in this tree.
I have another match who Ancestry state that they have a Hilden in their tree, but the strange thing is this Lady gives nothing away apart from this open message she left for all to see on her profile, are you able to help this Lady with anything you may know, she says she is from Kent and wants help but I don't evan know a single soul from Kent and never have known of the peoples she is looking for, she as the Indian dna that's about all she gives away, if you know anything tell me and I will write to her and tell her all about Rootschat and how you helped her, this is the message below she left for someone to find
Female match from Kent
Message
I never met my maternal grandparents James & Rebecca Brockey and would like to know where my maternal great grandmother Jemmia and great grandfather George came from. I know all about my paternal line. I am now 75 years old and am trying to get complete tree done in order to pass to my 9 grandchildren.
Also this Lady shares 51 stated dna Cousin matches with me it full of the lot of them lots of the American ones are their to evan the Lovell's join this cluster plus a Lady named Parish who comes out of the famous Keomi Gray 18411914
I will look for more, it as been great learning of the Gipsy Peoples from the South if you know anything at all your more than welcome to say for everything is of great interest to me, i have researched Scotland in my own way for many hours you can ask me if you want to know things about the Northern lands the Borders i have searched offten for answers and will try and help you if i can i will just say i don't know if i know nothing but i have searched and will tell you if i know anything that you may want to know, i do not really know much about the Baileys though but have lots of knowledge about the Blyth Farrs Rutherford's and such, well i found lots of interesting storeys.
michael
ps... i think i just found out about the Baileys of Kent i just this minute after writing this letter then went onto Ancestry and searched for a Yelding and another Match came up but this one as the Baileys of Kent in their tree i will tell you everything tomorrow, they are all in this tree the Scamps the lot
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Thanks Michael,
There is a great deal of information here.
Was just researching a Kemp dna match to Berwickshire, which is the Scottish Borders; but the Baillie/Bailey name is in southern Scotland as well.
I seem to match Romany on both sides, paternal Bailey (Kent) and maternal Thurgood (Essex), & the lines cross, they cross in Kent through the Gimber-Lee family, my biggest Romany match.
My second biggest dna match is to the Boswell family, I only just traced this to a Sophia Boswell
[B:1797 Kent, England, D:1880 Surrey, England] who marries into the Scamp family.
Afraid I do not know the name Brockey but I will keep an eye out for it.
Will update & look forward to hearing from you again - great thanks!
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...looking at the Hildens I found a distant Cousin Match who as a
Elvie Hilden 18801942 Hertfordshire who weds jasper lee 1880
michael
Thanks Michael,
That is indeed Elvie Hilden
18801942
BIRTH 21 AUG 1880 Hertfordshire, England
DEATH 1942 Hitchin Hertfordshire England
but her patents are unknown - this is the brick wall for Elvie I'm afraid.
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My dna match is a Loveridge on both sides she is from Cambridge, Cambridgeshire I share 13 dna Cousin matches with this Female
The Loveridges go back to a
Benjamin Loveridge
17651853 Tutholden, Oxfordshire,
Also there ia a Joseph Smith
1821
I also share a match to Loveridge - an Emma Speed nee Loveridge, & a similar match to the West Bromwich Romany Smiths, most of my matches are quite distant though, my biggest matches are in Kent.
Many thanks :)
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Hi
I think this will be a good find for you, once again Rose Kemp (Scamp) is in this tree, but we must start in this day, my match is a Male who states he is from the South and Originally from Pembury Kent, on his profile he gives only the name the Englishman, well down his line you will see how the Constance Family are from the Constant Family who wed into Emmett (Hilden) as in Susanna Emmett (Hilden) 1863 Ewell Kent now Susan comes out of John Emmett 1837 and Charlotte Yelding Yelden 18441927 the Emmets go back to Abraham Emmett 1821 Swingfield Kent James Emmett 1791 Ann Emmett 1796 The Yeldings Yeldon go back to ? Yelding, John Yelding 1814 St.Nicholas at Wade.Kent born Sarre.Kent Thomas Yelding
Also in this tree are the Lees stated as
Isaac Lee 1822 Susannah Lee 17871866 Thomas Lee
1760Chatham Kent
Unknown Lee unknown Lee.
Now back in this tree is a Martha Bailey 17791852 Rolvenden Kent
Philadelthea Bailey 18061870 Rolvenden Kent
and a William Bailey 17731850 these may be of innterst to you and i am sure you know them, but the Baileys are true living down the Kent way and i share old dna in this day with the Cousin match above known as the Englishman, it is right at the end of Ancestrys range but it is still alive in me in this day, there are more names in this tree, i hope you have learned evan a little or evan at that found such things innteresting, i will keep looking for things for you, from your last message it seems to that we both share Cousin matches in this day, how about that then, i will look for more.
michael
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Oh thanks Michael,
Had been in touch with Mr Constance.
I now have Rose Scamp-Kemp in my tree married to Thomas Lee
B:1760 Chatham, Kent, England.
Yelding was also the name of one of Gilderoy Scamp's partners - though she may have had other names?
"Katherine Scamp (born Yelding) was born in 1810. Katherine married Gilderoy Scamp."
https://www.myheritage.com/names/kitty_scamp (https://www.myheritage.com/names/kitty_scamp)
Now Emmett could be a very interesting find, if the name is associated with Hilden in any way. I have seen the Emmett name in my tree.
And also those Baileys of Kent - I have no proof that my Baileys are Romany, only that my 4th great aunt Sarah Bailey married into the Romany Friend family - which ultimately connects me to the Kentish Gimber-Lee family, 'Ronnie', my major Romany cousin.
Will update :)
-
Possible mother for Elvie Hilden - unconfirmed:
Mary Hilden
B:25 May 1914
D:24 Mar 2005 Kent, England
-
Now back in this tree is a Martha Bailey 17791852 Rolvenden Kent
Philadelthea Bailey 18061870 Rolvenden Kent
and a William Bailey 17731850 these may be of innterst to you and i am sure you know them, but the Baileys are true living down the Kent way and i share old dna in this day with the Cousin match above known as the Englishman, it is right at the end of Ancestrys range but it is still alive in me in this day, there are more names in this tree, i hope you have learned evan a little or evan at that found such things innteresting, i will keep looking for things for you, from your last message it seems to that we both share Cousin matches in this day, how about that then, i will look for more.
michael
Rolvenden is some 27 miles from Chatham where I have links to in my tree, so these Baileys could well be related to mine but probably not that closely - do we know if the Rolvenden Baileys were Romany please?
Many thanks.
-
I have another match this time its a Straight down the line Male Gardiner
Not the ones I have wrote of before, but with this Gardiner we both share 39 matches all again from the old Gipsy Family's the Hilden connection is from
Jack Hilden Plumstead Kent
19061985
Who weds
Brittania Eastwood Dartford Kent
19112008
The Boswells Scamps Dightons Lees and more are on in this tree.
Hi Michael,
Landed on a Gardiner Tree at Ancestry - he has the same Edward Lee spouse name as me - this will be connected to my paternal Bailey cousin-line:-
Barbara Anne Cannon aka Collison...Romany
B: . .1774 Brest, Belarus
D: .08.1864 Tent, in Victoria, Park Bethnal, Green, London, England
There is also a Celia Lee in the Gardiner tree:
Celia Lee
B:16 Mar 1901 Belvedere, Kent, England
D:3 Oct 1964 SE 18
-
Hi
What about just asking the man who goes by the name the English man, he is dna matched to me and as the Baileys in his tree, you said you have spoken to him before, do you want me to write to him, i will do that for you if it would be of help, i am not knowledgeable at all on the peoples you write about, i am learning much though and taking everything in, well i am trying to, i have about four male Gardiners as dna matches or maybe five i forgot but they are one of those old Family's by the look of their Family history and just like the Scamps they hold the Indian dna between them, in my mind it is clear that those two Family's are from the old Romany Peoples who first landed long ago, how and where i do not know but through me looking at my own dna matches which go well into the hundreds, well again i can plainly see the Gardiners and Scamps possess old Romany Gipsy genes in this day, i just found another Scamp match last night, She does not give much away but a few photos that link her to the Gipsy's and the Indian dna and many many shared dna matches with lots of the Old Names, She comes out of the Loves and Scamps Family's from down that South way,
i think Her Mother was Mary Scamp 19371997 Dartford, Kent r.i.p She is a Cousin match through shared dna with me in the 4th to sixth range, i do not know why though, or evan a maybe, not a clue of any of this information, its hard for me to help you for i do not know of any of these names yet i seem to have strong links from the old times with the descendants of the old Gipsy's from the South, the Lee Family i have strong old links to with born and bred Lees Male and Females to, from the South coast right through Wales to, why though, the Stanley's are a big match to but the Young's are many like the Lees, i wonder who are or who his the old Ancestor who gave me all these dna matches to the old Gipsy's in this day, you think you are looking for something and it is a struggle for you, well look at me, i don't evan have a clue about my own Ancestry regarding my dna Cousin matches, i understand about the names i know from up my way but the South and more America then the Hearnes from Wales and the greatest of them the mighty Herons from the Northern lands, you have got to admit all this is a mystery that will never be solved, never, did you ever hear of them Jewell's to i think i spelled the name right, there famous in the old writings i may have spelt that name wrong but i dna match to them to, and now last night to a Swedish Family with not a drop of my British way ancestry they have now matched to me, they all play the accordion from long years, well i thought i would look through their Family photos and there was an old Relation with is name printed so i looked up his name on the internet and His old Family was from the old Romany that went to Sweden there is just a flicker of the South Asian left in them that Ancestry gives through their tests the rest from those cold lands not a drop of those lands are in me but i share old dna with these accordion players, i will show you a link to the oldest of them maybe tomorrow, i will keep trying to see things for you, i do read your posts and try and find things but i can not write of what i have not found, but i will try.
michael
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Thanks Michael,
Have again in fact written to Mr Constance - 'Englishman' - he surely knows more about the Bailey family than I do.
I do know that Romanies were transported to Scandinavia by the Tudors, but they thrived & adapted; and married into the local nomadic people - the Saami. I have a dna match to a Saami through his cousin.
The Bailey name is also amongst Scottish Travellers as Baillie, that is something I am also following up; I have 9% Scottish ancestry. Am pretty sure the Romany Youngs were originally from Scotland as well. Baillie Travellers have links to Ireland also.
Can you see people's trees on the Ancestry site please?
Many kind thanks :)
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Thanks Michael,
Have again in fact written to Mr Constance - 'Englishman' - he surely knows more about the Bailey family than I do.
I do know that Romanies were transported to Scandinavia by the Tudors, but they thrived & adapted; and married into the local nomadic people - the Saami. I have a dna match to a Saami through his cousin.
The Bailey name is also amongst Scottish Travellers as Baillie, that is something I am also following up; I have 9% Scottish ancestry. Am pretty sure the Romany Young's were originally from Scotland as well. Baillie Travellers have links to Ireland also.
Can you see people's trees on the Ancestry site please?
Many kind thanks :)
Hi
I just found a dna match who links the South Gipsy's with the baillies of Scotland i just spelt the name how you said baillie instead of Bailey and a person with Gipsy Ancestry from the south also as the baillies of Scotland in their tree from the 1600s, i do not see no ones trees only some of my matches let you see a few generations in their profile then i get around this by looking on the world map under their name for offten some of them put the names of their Ancestors on the map with locations of origin like Scotland, so then i use this to see the bigger picture, this way though you do not know which line the person in the map is from, like the Baillies above, my match as Gipsy's on one line as in side as in either Mother or Father, but the baillies go back to the 1600s so i can not see which side they are from because my match only shows back to the 1800s, you must write to them to join their group if they let you, so i have to look on their map of Relatives to find a few more free bits, some people tell you nothing not nothing, only that you match, the Young's from Sotland are two Young's i was told, you have the Tinker Young's and the Black Young's or Dark Young's, the Dark Young's are the Herons and the Tinker Young's are the old Tinkler Family's, i do not know if this is totally correct i was just listening to others talk and reading things over the yeares, but i do think their are two Young Family's from the North but do not take my word for such things for i do not know of the real talk.
michael
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I just found a dna match who links the South Gipsy's with the baillies of Scotland i just spelt the name how you said baillie instead of Bailey and a person with Gipsy Ancestry from the south also as the baillies of Scotland in their tree from the 1600s
michael
Thanks Michael - is your dna match on Ancestry, do they have a tree please?
I do match a Scottish Baillie of centuries ago, in someone's tree - so they are a distant cousin to me; but I don't know what the link is to the southern Baileys.
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I match a Janet Baillie, born 14th November 1749, Lanarkshire, Scotland.
Janet is in the tree of my 5th-8th cousin Daniel C, on Ancestry.
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Hi
I found William Baillie who died in 1724 on the profile page of my dna match who as the Gipsy ancestry from the South, William Baillie known as the Captain was stated as being from Scotland so there now is the connection you was looking for, this below is the writings in a book that contains many reference's to the Baillies and how the name is spelt several ways, just read the whole book or just go to the back and in the index it shows you the page numbers that you can just read that refers to the Baillies, so use this if you do not like the thought of reading the whole book.
Scottish Gypsies under the Stewarts
by
MacRitchie, David, 1851-1925
Page 111-112
The acknowledged leader of the Baillie tribe in the latter part of the seventeenth century, and until his death in 1724, was the celebrated " Captain William Baillie."
https://archive.org/details/scottishgypsies00macrgoog/page/n122/mode/2up
My dna match Deniece as a Grandmother named lemataney Matthews Mitcham, Surrey, England
19101996 r.i.p who's Mother was Lemataney Smith Mitcham, Surrey, England
18871969 who's Mother was Lemataney Gardner Carshalton, Surrey, England
18641948 and if you go down the Mathews line they wed to Cinnamentia Sinamentey Limmenta (Senna) Cinderella Cooper Epsom, Surrey, England
18651943
Also Deniece writes under the title Family tree these names below on the world map of her ancestors,
Agnes Baillie
18031879
Borthwick, Midlothian, Scotland
John Baillie
1769
Borthwick, Midlothian, , Scotland
Captain William Baillie
16611724
Hardingtoun Robertoun, Clackmannan, Scotland
John Baillie
17301790
Canonbie, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
Mathew Baillie
1694
Midlothian, Scotland
Matthew Baillie
17101816
Midlothian, Scotland
I only can see the first few lines of the Family tree above so do not know how the Baillies connect, Deniece states through her writings that they are all in her Family tree, how this comes to be i do not know, so Gipsy's from Scotland and Gipsy's from England could be in some way in the one Family tree, there is much more information in Deniece profile, I have just kept this short to focus on what you were looking for, Surrey is near to Kent and I am sure many of the other names on this tree will connect to all the Gipsy Family's of the South, just to had I share two dna matches with the Lady named Deniece, one looks to be a Bailey Wharton from America if I am reading things right, they then go on through there own names to rematch to me a great many of the well known Gipsy names that I have spoke of before including another male Bailey that i match to, again from America, I hope I have read things right and I have tried here to put things down in a right true manner, it does look to me that these Baillies from Scotland are in the same Family tree that contain many of the English Gipsy names above, this is what I am reading through a stated dna match to me, i have tried to transcribe everything in a true manner, I hope this information may be of help to you, i do not know if the Baillies from the book are the same as the Baillie's in the Family tree of my dna match above but it looks hopfull through the name of the "Captain William Baillie" and the year of his death 1724, the Family tree and the book share this information its up to you to read into such things and decide for yourself.
michael
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Thanks Michael,
Is Deneice on Ancestry please?
My dna match Deniece as a Grandmother named lemataney Matthews Mitcham, Surrey, England
19101996 r.i.p who's Mother was Lemataney Smith Mitcham, Surrey, England
18871969 who's Mother was Lemataney Gardner Carshalton, Surrey, England
18641948 and if you go down the Mathews line they wed to Cinnamentia Sinamentey Limmenta (Senna) Cinderella Cooper Epsom, Surrey, England
18651943
I have in my tree a Sentenniah / Cinderella Cooper [18081875]
BIRTH 18 DEC 1808 Long Bredy, Dorset
DEATH 20 OCT 1875 87 Randle St, St Peters, Plymouth, Devon, England, I wonder if there is a relation to your Cinderella Cooper?
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on Denieces profile that she lets me see she states this
Direct ancestors with the surname Baillie
From DENIECE
.. tree:
Agnes Baillie
18031879
Captain William Baillie
16611724
John Baillie
17301790
John Baillie
1769
Mathew Baillie
1694
Matthew Baillie
17101816
Direct ancestors with the surname Cooper
From DENIECE
.. tree:
Cooper
Cinnamentia Sinamentey Limmenta (Senna) Cinderella Cooper
18651943
Edward Wendon Cooper
18041886
George Cooper
18151890
Mary Cooper
1847
Matthias Cooper
1750
Spicer (Uriah) Cooper
18151882
William Cooper
17911837
So you see the coopers and the Baillies are Denieces direct ancestors, there are more Gipsys than the Coopers I just put them on to show you the names, they may match to the Coopers you know, I will look in my dna Cooper matches to see if I can find a link to the Coopers in your tree
michael
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Cooper
Matthias Cooper
1750
michael
Thanks, I have a
Matthias COOPER White (c1810)
18101900
BIRTH 1810 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
DEATH 21 SEP 1900 Workhouse, Guildford, Surrey, England.
Obviously related, by the name - but a different branch of the (Windsor?) Coopers?
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on Denieces profile that she lets me see she states this
Direct ancestors with the surname Baillie
From DENIECE
.. tree:
Agnes Baillie
18031879
I lightly DNA-match a Fiona Glass who has this Baillie in her Ancestry tree:-
Agnes Baillie
B: Feb 1801 Temple, Midlothian
D: 05 Dec 1874 Bothwick, Midlothian, Scotland
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I just wanted to show you this dna match to me that contains a Cooper, she herself comes out of the Lowthers plus i share four dna matches with this match named Lesley, they are two Boswell males with the same Christain name but i can see they are different people, plus Big Jack from America who as the champions of ancestry, and finally a Female whose Granparents are Smiths and Lees on one side, her Parents she does not give any name to, there is much to learn from the information contained in the Cousin sequence, it may be many years in the future before such truth is known but we can only learn of such things in our own life times and think of these things, you would not of ever known of the Lowthers, they connect to the Wilshers- Wiltshires who I connect to, I am only a bit of a scrag end as regards Gipsy ancestry yet I to am free to learn as everyone who learns deems themselves fit, the Lowthers are in storeys with the Wilshers over the Yorkshire way and evan my own place of Sneinton, they get up to all sorts of goings on, I understand all these goings, and love to read of the past peoples life's at all times I respect everyone of the long dead.
Lesley
Manchester, Lancashire, England
Lesley Mother was Brenda 19361982 r.i.p Manchester, Lancashire, Brenda's Mother was Donah Priscilla Lowther 19061987 Bury, Lancashire, Donas Mother was Lavina Lovell 18811910 Bury Lancaster, Donna's Father was George Lowther 18811958 Halifax, Yorkshire, Lavina's Father was George Lovell 1833 Elmstone Hardwicke, Gloucestershire, Lavina's Mother was Genti (Jenty) Cooper 1848 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire.
All this above in Lesley's open Tree that just shows you a few generations to help you see if there is a connection, then you may write to your dna match and ask to learn more, if they like you, you then are allowed to join their group.
Also on the world map that Lesley shows freely are more names in her tree but not the branch.
Major Lovell
17791853
Weldon, Northamptonshire
Isabella Smith
18161890
Solihull, Warwickshire
George Lovell
18101879
Longborough, Gloucestershire
So you see how Gipsy's are connected through Family's and location, I think through dna you may follow and learn about Family's through the clusters that are plain to see if you look into the thousands of dna Cousin matches that everyone holds, also now there may be certain Family's that Criss cross Britain more than others and my own dna shows also how certain Family's Criss crossed evan oceans, it has been a great learning to learn of such things, the Coopers I do not know anything about but I have come to learn you will find them in many trees that span the globe, i have several direct down the line born and bred Coopers who dna match to me, how i come to share dna with Coopers born in this day saying we share a far off common ancestor i do not know, there is a link in some form what it meens in truth only the times of the future may reveal, now when I engage with people on the internet I just talk to words, through this meetings of words I learn of many words, by being a person who aligns to words may sound selfish yet it is the truth for through this meeting it allows me to send forth my own words of my teachings from the heart of learning, which is my soul time goal in the art of such learning, people try and project words but the words reveal their truth that projectiles are but sent words having their own meanings through letters that fall and form, i do not see people but feel into their words this reveals that which can not be thrown, I do thank everyone though, to take the time to engage in whatever agenda allows much breath to be breathed in the spoken word, all words may be read, all words may be spoken, some people hide away their words in the dark cell prisoned in thought, how would you define the word selfish then, such people believe they are the jailer of words and grasp hard the key in such tight nit rope hands, but why do they not see they themselves are looking out from the inner cell as they believe and think that they stare at you confined in the prison deep in truth it is them surrounded by iron bars forged in great darkness by the metal smith whose blinded hammer as sounded our world since man began from words forged in light that truth alights yet in hidden minds why themselves would they take such things to the grave deep for how great the cell thoughts of jailers yet no words weeps for them but sing loud the song of freedom as the bird whistles above the tomb for the flower risers in everyday yet the flower seeks water as do words seek speech
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Thanks Michael,
These are predominantly northern family branches. I have a match to Lancashire Boswells and West Bromwich Romany Smiths, but that's probably because they had relatives in Kent - Chatham area seems to have been very popular with Traveller folk in the 19th century and earlier.
Do you have a Gedmatch number please, to see if we are related at all - even distantly?
Best regards.
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Janey i few posts back asked me that, i still do not know what ged match is, i guess its to find people in a near tree who through dna are relatives, you can just freely ask me anything if you wish, do you seak any information, i have not done a gedmatch, who knows maybe one day i will.
michael
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Thanks Michael,
Where is this Lesley tree please?
Is there a link to it - or the name of the site where it can be found?
I just wanted to show you this dna match to me that contains a Cooper, she herself comes out of the Lowthers plus i share four dna matches with this match named Lesley, they are two Boswell males with the same Christain name but i can see they are different people, plus Big Jack from America who as the champions of ancestry, and finally a Female whose Granparents are Smiths and Lees on one side...
'Big Jack' is Jack Pearce?
My paper-trail cousin in NZ has matches to Jack Pearce, my cousin is a FRY, I don't know how he matches Jim though - the Frys have Kent UK ancestry.
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Also please, where is Deniece's profile or the tree which belongs to her, I'd love to see it.
Many thanks.
on Denieces profile that she lets me see she states this
Direct ancestors with the surname Baillie
From DENIECE
.. tree ...
michael
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you are right about Big Jack, i try not to put the modern to days information up, for i think its bad manners to do that when you start to understand the ways of the Rootschat peoples ideals, and Big Jack may not want his name put all over the internet that's why i try and learn new skills in writing, Denieces last name as in her profile well its on Ancestry as you did ask before, the person who mangers her profile has also well known photo's of Gipsy relatives , i do not match to him i match to Denieces tree in dna yet her manager as the same name as Her, Lesley from the North is also on ancestry i have the My Heritage also and i did find a sort of second Cousin named Knight who dna matcher's to me, the Knights are a Gipsy name from the past, My Heritage is more than likely a very good web site but i like Ancestry the best for it suits my needs.
on Denieces managers profile you may see Amy Lee and Earis Smith and Mena Lee plus Oliver Lee Leonard Lee and Julia Boswell Betsy Cooper and Sam Smith and more photos that i have never seen, i am nothing of none of the Peoples i talk of i just have links myself from peoples of the past who are now gone.
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Thanks Michael,
What is the name of Deniece's Tree on Ancestry please? I'd quite like to see it.
Deniece, & or her tree manager, might also have Ancestry user-names which would help me identify the tree. Do you have these?
If you'd rather not post such information on the forum, by all means 'private-message' them to me, & then we can properly compare notes :)
With kind regards.
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I would prefear to write to them on your behalf, and state that you would like to learn of such things that you have sort, if this is not right by you tell why and then i will private message you the details you ask, i would like to show respect to my Cousin dna matches, i offten make mistakes but try to evolve and move on, i will write to Deniece and ask her to come on Rootschat and answer your questions, who knows the final answers may not be of your liking and still your thoughts look ever more to the unknown, and also try not to give out the full details of people living
regards michael
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try not to give out the full details of people
Sorry Michael, I do not understand - what full details have been given about anyone on this forum? First and second names do not constitute 'full details' since thousands if not millions of people share such names.
Full details would be information like private addresses - postal or email - and such details I would never give out on a public forum. I'm sure you'd feel the same way about this too.
You have been invited by me to private message, you have elected to remain on public forum, on this topic - that is your choice, & I respect it.