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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: cindym19721 on Wednesday 01 August 18 12:20 BST (UK)
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I've hit a brick wall and need a bit of help. The gentleman in the attached screenshot is the 3x Great Grandfather of my friend who I'm trying to help do a tree for. Now, the problem is this: I found his father's name on his marriage record (William Hollingsworth) and by searching the GRO I found the only record possible for his birth, mother's maiden name shown as COLLEN (listed as COLLIN on other possible births from the same time period). Problem is that I'm having no luck finding a marriage record for his mother and father, by searching either using his father's full name or his mother's maiden surname. I've also tried FreeBMD with no luck. Help!! Please?? I'm at a loss of where to look next.
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Have you looked for Charles in his childhood censuses to see what his mother’s name was?
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Have you looked for Charles in his childhood censuses to see what his mother’s name was?
As Charles was born after the 1851 census, he isn't on that. The only census's I've come across don't tally with the possible births of siblings so I'm unsure, hence the need for help :-\
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Are you sure of the dates?
The Charles Hollingsworth whose death was registered in Bromley Jun qtr 1939 was aged 91, suggesting a birth c1848 ???
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And according to the censuses he was born in Bermondsey, not Essex!
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And according to the censuses he was born in Bermondsey, not Essex!
Place of birth changed a few times on the census records, so I don't take that at face value.
Are you sure of the dates?
The Charles Hollingsworth whose death was registered in Bromley Jun qtr 1939 was aged 91, suggesting a birth c1848 ???
I'm aware of that, but GRO indexes only have one Charles Hollingsworth listed, and he was born in 1851 (possible bit of age fudging as he got older?), couldn't find any for 1848 at all
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You say his place of birth changed “a few times” on the censuses?
1911: 63 b Bermondsey (free index)
1901: 53 b Bermondsey
1891: 43 b Bermondsey
1881: 33 b Bermondsey
1871: 23 b Bermondsey
Looks pretty consistent to me! In 1871 he is with parents Charles and Rebecca. RG10/740/134/6.
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You say his place of birth changed “a few times” on the censuses?
1911: 63 b Bermondsey (free index)
1901: 53 b Bermondsey
1891: 43 b Bermondsey
1881: 33 b Bermondsey
1871: 23 b Bermondsey
Looks pretty consistent to me! In 1871 he is with parents Charles and Rebecca. RG10/740/134/6.
On his marriage certificate, his father is named as William Hollingsworth not Charles. So I don't think that is the right census, either that or he forgot his own father's name! Lol
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Is he the one who married Clara CORK?
I was thinking about this one:
GRO BIRTHS:
HOLLINGWORTH, CHARLES mmn ROLPH
1848 S Quarter in DUNMOW UNION Volume 12 Page 86
Maureen
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Yes he's the one that married Clara Cork, I wasn't sure of the census you mentioned, purely because the ONLY census I have him on with his family is 1861, and his mother's first name is SUSAN, father is WILLIAM
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Re the one who died in Bromley in 1939 - his executor was his daughter Elsie Fredeswede Hollingsworth. Her birth reg is Dec qtr 1886 Wellingborough with mmn Bickerton. She appears with Bermondsey-born Charles and mother Elizabeth in all censuses from 1891.
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Re the one who died in Bromley in 1939 - his executor was his daughter Elsie Fredeswede Hollingsworth. Her birth reg is Dec qtr 1886 Wellingborough with mmn Bickerton. She appears with Bermondsey-born Charles and mother Elizabeth in all censuses from 1891.
Yes, that is the son, but I can't find anything to corroborate the 1861 census that says his mother's name was Susan, father's name was William (to match the marriage cert) and that is what I'm really after
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The 1851 for most/all of Dunmow is missing.
Some of the other siblings seem to have RALPH as mmn.
Maureen
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Seems like the registrar for Dunmow may have had a hearing problem, because the other Charles Hollingsworth is registered with mmn as COLLEN, other children listed as COLLIN! ;D
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Is he the one who married Clara CORK?
I was thinking about this one:
GRO BIRTHS:
HOLLINGWORTH, CHARLES mmn ROLPH
1848 S Quarter in DUNMOW UNION Volume 12 Page 86
Maureen
This is the one you want,I think.
William and Susan may have married before registration began. They are on the 1841 census as HOLLOWAY in Thaxted.
Another daughter's birth:
HOLLINGSWORTH, HANNAH mmn ROLPH
GRO Reference: 1841 M Quarter in DUNMOW UNION Volume 12 Page 90
Maureen
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Re the one who died in Bromley in 1939 - his executor was his daughter Elsie Fredeswede Hollingsworth. Her birth reg is Dec qtr 1886 Wellingborough with mmn Bickerton. She appears with Bermondsey-born Charles and mother Elizabeth in all censuses from 1891.
Yes, that is the son, but I can't find anything to corroborate the 1861 census that says his mother's name was Susan, father's name was William (to match the marriage cert) and that is what I'm really after
If this Charles (died in Bromley 1939, father of Elsie Fredeswede) is the correct Charles, then his marriage was to Elizabeth Bickerton (Jun qtr 1880 Camberwell), not the 1869 Clara Cork one.
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Sorry,avm! Looks like I was way off base! :-[ :-[
Maureen :)
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Sorry,avm! Looks like I was way off base! :-[ :-[
Maureen :)
Me too, but then the rest of the tree coming down doesn’t match actual records we have if that is the son of William
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If Elsie Fredeswede is in your friend's correct line, then you need to look at the details of her parents Charles and Elizabeth (nee Bickerton), and scratch anything to do with rival couple Charles & Clara (nee Cork).
As I mentioned early in the thread, it seems to me likely that the correct Charles is traceable through the censuses to father Charles who was married to a Rebecca (per 1871). But you would need the 1880 record of the marriage to Elizabeth Bickerton to confirm his paternal details.
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If Elsie Fredeswede is in your friend's correct line, then you need to look at the details of her parents Charles and Elizabeth (nee Bickerton), and scratch anything to do with rival couple Charles & Clara (nee Cork).
As I mentioned early in the thread, it seems to me likely that the correct Charles is traceable through the censuses to father Charles who was married to a Rebecca (per 1871). But you would need the 1880 record of the marriage to Elizabeth Bickerton to confirm his paternal details.
Ok, going down a couple of generations, we have definite proof that Constance Evelyn(1914-2004), Sybil Muriel (1912-1990) and Charles William (1909-1909) are my friend's grandmother (Sybil) and Constance and Charles William are Great aunt and uncle, if we work backwards from them, I have Thomas Edwin (1884-1949) and his wife was Nellie Pilbrow Owen (1883-1947) as their parents. Beyond that, if it isn't the Charles I found, can any of you point to which one it could be so I get that branch of the tree right?
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Sybil's mother's maiden name was Owen.
Thomas Edwin b 1884 Bromley - married to Nellie P Owen - had mother's maiden name Cork.
So we are back to the Charles and Clara nee Cork who married in 1869.
In that case the 1939 Bromley death with executor Elsie Fredeswede is wrong, but you've been provided with good stuff upthread about the Charles who married Clara Cork. You'll need to look at finding a new death date for him.
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Sybil's mother's maiden name was Owen.
Thomas Edwin b 1884 Bromley - married to Nellie P Owen - had mother's maiden name Cork.
So we are back to the Charles and Clara nee Cork who married in 1869.
In that case the 1939 Bromley death with executor Elsie Fredeswede is wrong, but you've been provided with good stuff upthread about the Charles who married Clara Cork. You'll need to look at finding a new death date for him.
This is driving me completely nuts!!! I don't know what ones are right and wrong any more, my brain feels like it's exploding lol
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OK - Clara Annie Hollingworth nee Cork died in 1885.
Charles and the children were in Farnborough by 1891 - still there in 1901.
Perhaps his death can be found in that area?
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OK - Clara Annie Hollingworth nee Cork died in 1885.
Charles and the children were in Farnborough by 1891 - still there in 1901.
Perhaps his death can be found in that area?
That's where I've been looking for him, but I still can't find his parents, they're the ones I really need
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Hasn't Maureen found you his parents at reply #14?
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No, wrong ones. Charles’ mother maiden name is Collin/Collen and father’s name is William
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Here's a partial timeline for Charles (the one who married Clara):
1869 (24 Apr): Marriage to Clara Annie Cork in Tottenham. Charles is of full age; father William, labourer.
1871: Charles Hollingsworth, gardener, 22 b Thaxted, Essex (family in Westminster)
1881: Charles Hollingsworth, gardener, 32 b Bardfield, Essex (family in Lee, Lewisham)
1891: Charles Hollingsworth, florist, 42 b Thaxted (family in Farnborough)
1901: Charles Hollingsworth, florist, 52 b Thaxted (family in Farnborough)
His consistent age makes the 1848 birth with mmn Rolph more likely than the 1851 one with mmn Collen, I'd have thought? In both cases the father appears to have been William.
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Have you looked at the next-door neighbour in the 1891 census: George Hollingsworth, 39, carman, born Thaxted? Perhaps this is Charles' brother?
RG12/633/83/31.
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Thank you avm228, I guess I'll have to keep looking for his parents now then, seeing as that's what I was asking about in the first place. I think my wording may have been a bit confusing in the original post.
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Have you looked at the next-door neighbour in the 1891 census: George Hollingsworth, 39, carman, born Thaxted? Perhaps this is Charles' brother?
RG12/633/83/31.
No, hadn't looked at that, but it's very likely to be a relative of some sort, there seem to be loads of Hollingsworth's in that area at the time
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I suggest he is George Hollingsworth, mother's maiden name Ralph, birth reg Sep qtr 1851 Dunmow.
He's with his father William in Thaxted in 1871.
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Cheers avm228, I'll keep on that track now, don't know why there had to be so many of them in the 1800's!!!
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So in summary it looks to me as follows:
1. Your 1861 census find (Bardfield End Green, Thaxted) with parents William & Susan and children including Charles 12 and George 9 is the correct family.
2. Susan's maiden name was either Rolph (per Charles' 1848 birth reg) or Ralph (per George 1851 & other children), but marriage not yet found.
3. The 1851 birth of a Charles with mmn Collin/Collen is a red herring - different person.
4. The 1939 death in Bromley is a red herring - different person again.
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That's what I was just thinking. The fun now is to find Charles' death and his parents marriage just to round it all out. Thanks again for the help. I'd been going round in circles for days ??? ???
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Have you discounted this death
Deaths Dec 1913
Charles Hollingsworth age 65
Bromley 2a 622
with this probate to Henry Elam, Frederick Albert & Thomas Edwin Hollingsworth
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=hollingsworth&yearOfDeath=1913&page=2#calendar
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Have you discounted this death
Deaths Dec 1913
Charles Hollingsworth age 65
Bromley 2a 622
with this probate to Henry Elam, Frederick Albert & Thomas Edwin Hollingsworth
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=hollingsworth&yearOfDeath=1913&page=2#calendar
Hadn't even seen that one before! Wow, thanks rosie99