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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: DozyDora on Wednesday 01 August 18 14:51 BST (UK)
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Hello,
Can anybody tell me what an “A/Capt” and “T/Capt might mean please? I know “Capt” stands for Captain, but what does the A and T stand for and what were their responsibilities?
Dozy Dora
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Acting Captain and Temporary Captain.
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A captain commanded a company. I think 'temporary' also meant not a 'regular' commission. There was also a nasty connotation 'temporary gentleman'. The term was not used in WWII. After WWI, units were commanded by one rank higher, so company commanded by a major and still is. Never understood it although it was explained to me.
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It was a little more complicated than that (it had to be!!). There is a difference between temporary commissions and temporary ranks. The former were indeed the commissions granted to non-regular officers. Whatever rank they then held, they were still holding a temporary commission which, broadly, was for the duration of the war.
However, tying down the distinction between temporary and acting rank is like nailing jelly to a wall. It altered during the Great War with some evidence that acting became more prevalent in 1915. Others far more versed in these matters than I (including MPs - see Hansard in 1915 for example https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1915/apr/22/army-estimates-1915-16-progress-10th ) have discussed the subject ad nauseam. It is fraught with difficulty and, as Regorian implies, even if explained doesn't make sense the next day!
Any attempt to explain it definitively would have to be accompanied by the relevant Army Orders of the time under discussion.
The question really was - what were their duties - answer - no different from a substantive captain whose place they had taken for some period of time.
Dora - you may wish to look at the title of the regiment. I suspect it is King's Royal Rifle Corps although there are a couple of King's Own somethings they don't have Rifles in the title.
MaxD
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Dora
Advancement to temporary or acting rank was published in the London Gazette and the purpose of the advancement was often given in the entry. You might like to give his name and we'll cast around for more info.
MaxD
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I’ve now found out that A stands for Acting and T for Temporary. Temporary was higher than Acting and was usually awarded after 3 months of being Acting Captain.
http://www.unithistories.com/officers/Army_officers_help.htm
Dora
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It was a little more complicated than that (it had to be!!). There is a difference between temporary commissions and temporary ranks. The former were indeed the commissions granted to non-regular officers. Whatever rank they then held, they were still holding a temporary commission which, broadly, was for the duration of the war.
However, tying down the distinction between temporary and acting rank is like nailing jelly to a wall. It altered during the Great War with some evidence that acting became more prevalent in 1915. Others far more versed in these matters than I (including MPs - see Hansard in 1915 for example https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1915/apr/22/army-estimates-1915-16-progress-10th ) have discussed the subject ad nauseam. It is fraught with difficulty and, as Regorian implies, even if explained doesn't make sense the next day!
Any attempt to explain it definitively would have to be accompanied by the relevant Army Orders of the time under discussion.
The question really was - what were their duties - answer - no different from a substantive captain whose place they had taken for some period of time.
Dora - you may wish to look at the title of the regiment. I suspect it is King's Royal Rifle Corps although there are a couple of King's Own somethings they don't have Rifles in the title.
MaxD
I have the abbreviation KORR so what does that stand for?
It was my Dad and we cremated him on 30/7/18. I don’t have his army record, only some notes in a diary. He always said he was a Captain but now it looks as though he could have only been temporary.
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It looks as though it is King’s Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster).
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The regiment looks correct.
I don't think you should consider that he "was only temporary" to use your words. His substantive rank would have been Lieutenant but he was deemed worthy to carry the rank, and do the job, of a Captain. He would have worn the pips and be addressed as Captain.
My apologies by the way for referring to 1915 discussions, I had overlooked that we were talking about WW2.
Have you found reference to his promotions in the London Gazette and/or the Army Lists? His record can be applied for from MOD.
MaxD
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A captain commanded a company. I think 'temporary' also meant not a 'regular' commission. There was also a nasty connotation 'temporary gentleman'. The term was not used in WWII. After WWI, units were commanded by one rank higher, so company commanded by a major and still is. Never understood it although it was explained to me.
Not always, Captains are usually 2ics of a Company and as you mention the permanent rank for a Infantry Company Commander was a Major.
Temporary, Acting and Unpaid are terms frequently seen in Officer Field Returns in WW2 War Diaries. Temporary means a temporary promotion to replace a officer killed, wounded or posted away from the unit. It gives the flexibility of being able to return the officer to his/her substantive rank without too much paperwork.