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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: dasmitchell on Thursday 02 August 18 00:16 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I have been trying to do some work tracing my Great Great Grandfather John McKenzie. The info I had to start with was Great Grandfather John McKenzie had run away from home at a young age to join the navy and that his father was also called John McKenzie and had been an Estate Gardener. His mother was called Margaret McKenzie (nee McIntosh) and possible year of birth as 1878 all of which I obtained from his death certificate dated 1960.
This has led me to some clues, some confirmed, some possibilities which I have uploaded to this location https://1drv.ms/f/s!Aq0bCFis4CsXhzjQIIRBoNySLENi
Confirmed
- I found my Great Grandfathers birth certificate which does confirm his father as a Gardner, his father as John McKenzie and his mother as Margaret McKenzie (nee McIntosh) and his DOB being December 1877 in Edinburgh, Scotland and lists his parents marriage date of the 14th of January 1876 in Newcastle Upon Tyme. I can't find a record of this marriage anywhere though, so it is either lost or more likely never occurred and they were not actually married.
- Royal Navy Record which confirms place of birth and birthday.
- Marriage certificate, which confirms his father John McKenzie was deceased in 1908 and his mother was still alive.
Clues
- 1881 census which has a John McKenzie living in Fife Scotland working as a Gardener with a wife Margaret McKenzie aged 28 and a son John McKenzie aged 3. It has the birthplace of John McKenzie as Cullen, Banffshire and as an age of 45. Margaret McKenzie as being born in Inverness, and John as being born in Edinburgh.
- 1891 census which has a John McKenzie living in Hertford England working as a Gardener with a wife Margaret McKenzie and a son John McKenzie aged 13. John McKenzie is still 45 which suggests he is not the same person, but oddly Margaret McKenzie is 10 years older, as is John McKenzie which seems to link up. Also John McKenzie is listed as being born in Fordyce Banffshire which isn't far from Cullen, Margaret McKenzie is listed as being born in Oben which is quite far from Inverness, and John is listed as being born in Edinburgh.
- 1891 census which has a John McKenzie from Edinburgh aged 13 on a training ship as a "boy under detention".
Where I hit a stumbling block is I can't be certain any of the clues are accurate. Both the 1881 census and 1891 have remarkably similar data. It could be the age was recorded incorrectly for John McKenzie in 1881 and he was actually 35, or they could be different people. I am relatively confident the training ship census is the correct John McKenzie, so my question there would be could the same person appear in two different census records for the same year?
My next stumbling block is that John McKenzie is an extremely common name, so I have found quite a few having been born in Bannfshire in both the 1836 year and 1846 so I can't isolate the person. Also I can't really find a Margaret McIntosh having been born in Oban or Inverness in 1853. There are some links but nothing definite. The missing link is the marriage certificate for John McKenzie and Margaret McIntosh where I could get their parents names but no records can be found. The other thing I tried was see if I can find a death certificate for John McKenzie, but assuming there is something accurate about the 1891 census I only know he would have died between 1891 and 1908 (as he is marked as deceased on the marriage certificate of his son) there are far too many John McKenzie deaths during that period.
With all the information I find myself rabbit holing and was just wondering if anybody had any advice on what I should specifically focus on to help lead me to John McKenzie and Margaret McIntosh's parents?
Thanks
David
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Could she have been married before? ie a Widow?
On freebdm there is a June Marriage 1876 for a John McKenzie in Tynemouth.
Does not look like he married a Margaret
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You have put
' 1881 census which has a John McKenzie living in Fife Scotland working as a Gardener with a wife Margaret McKenzie aged 28 and a son John McKenzie aged 3. It has the birthplace of John McKenzie as Cullen, Banffshire and as an age of 45. Margaret McKenzie as being born in Inverness, and John as being born in Edinburgh.'
Have you looked at the original census image or just the transcription for his (John snr) age and the other details?
That 1881 census also has a daughter Margaret Agnes - have you found her elsewhere?
Added:
Margaret is also there in 1891 census, and another sister Christina born Edinburgh so same family looks likely.
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This one could be John McKenzie Snr's death on Scotlands people
MCKENZIE JOHN 60 1894 447/8 Markinch
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Hi all,
Thanks for your help so far, there could be a chance that Margaret McIntosh was a widow but I can't be certain. I actually found the 1876 marriage of John McKenzie in Tynemouth as I had contacted Newcastle's registry and they found that as well, but the spouse details didn't match and they then subsequently found him on a census later so he is definitely not the same person unfortunately.
I have looked at the original census image for John Snr's age, it does look like 45 on both records, but there is a black mark through both of them so it isn't inconceivable that the number isn't correct and did forget to mention that Margaret Jnr appears on both records so it does look like the same detail. And I found Margaret Angus in the 1901 census, but if it is the same person she has then left home and working as a servant in another house and I have not tracked further, I did try and look at death certificates but again not found anything confirmed. What I haven't done is look at the other siblings from the 1891 cenus, that is a great idea thanks.
I justed checked the John McKenzie record in McKenzie and unfortunately not linked, I had also been filtering by age (based on either a 1836 or 1846 birth date. I tried a few possible links (deaths in Edinburgh etc) but no luck so far.
Let me see what I can find with the siblings as that may help me isolate the right person!
Thanks
David
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Found John and Margaret (with their daughters) in Cramond, Midlothian in 1901:
John McKenzie 58 Gardener (domestic) born Fordyce, Banff.
Margaret McKenzie 51 born South Alist (?as transcribed), Argyll
Margaret McKenzie 21 Waitress born Edinburgh
Christina McKenzie 20 Waitress born Windygates, Fife
Christina was indeed born in Markinch, Fife (not Edinburgh) in 1881 and Windygates was the address where family lived in 1881.
So, John McKenzie died between 1901 and 1908 but exactly where? He constantly seemed to be on the move. A shorter window to search anyway.
Annette
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Thanks Annette,
Great find thanks, I have pulled that census, that also gives me some more information on my Great Grandfathers sisters,
Will try another search for the death certificate. As you say I have a shorter window and an age to work with.
Will keep you all updated on that find.
Thanks
David
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Just to add, I have also found Margaret McKenzie's death certificate from 1907 aged 53 from Cramond. She isn't described as a widow so I assume that means her husband John McKenzie was still alive then which reduces the window to just a year. The age doesn't match with the census but I am guessing getting accurate age data at that time wasn't that straight forward
Unfortunately it does not have her mothers name but does list her father as John McKenzie which might let me find her side of the family.
So I have isolated John McKenzie's birth date to be between 1836 and 1846 in Cullen/Fordyce, Banff and Margaret McKenzie (McIntosh) between 1850 and 1854 in Oban/South Uist/or Inverness and her father was John McIntosh.
Unfortunately there are no death certificates that I can find for John McKenzie in 1907/1908 that are definitely him and there is of course a chance he died before that and is not marked as such on the death certificate. Will keep looking for that though. Thanks again for all the help!
David
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Just to answer part of your question, as I've come up with this one, myself a few times.
Some parents still claimed their children as being home on census night, even if they were at sea (tick), at their grandparents (tick), in a boarding school (tick) or next door sleeping at the neighbours (which usually makes me wonder if they're other relatives).
The higher the literacy in a family, the more reliable the census information. Places changed named too (or registration districts and parish boundaries did) which often throws curve balls. As people aged they learned different things about themselves and their family. Being raised in one place, having been born in another is very confusing!
Good luck... I've a husband with Scottish ancestry, and much prefer my own English lines... not quite as confusing outside of Jones, Smith & some of the more common ones!
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Thanks Jools,
That helps explain the discrepancies!
David